NationStates Jolt Archive

Simply because He didn't! Wow! Revelation!

After Katrina, some atheists on this board began attacking God, saying that if there was a god, He is heartless because He caused all the disasters and made everybody suffer. Well, stop thinking that, because:

a) Every human will die. It doesn't matter whether it is from lung cancer or Hurricane Katrina. God didn't send Katrina to punish those specific poor people in Louisinia. People will die regardless.

b) If you're blaming God for the deaths and destruction from the disaster, who is blaming anybody when abortion is legalised? Why is criticising God for taking lives as easy as ignoring God's commands and throwing away His gifts when He actually grants life to you?

c) "Oh God! You are all loving! You shouldn't cause disasters!" Shall I remind you that God is not only loving, but also just? Death is a punishment for our sins, sins that we chose in free will to commit. You start complaining when God allows disasters, but I don't see you complaining when you're breaking God's heart with your sins? That's really hypocritical. Like. Really.

Now now. Let the flaming begin. :rolleyes:

<snip>

Wow... Atheists blaming god? And here was me thinking they don't believe god exists.

Wow... Atheists blaming god? And here was me thinking they don't believe god exists.
I know. What are they thinking?

Simply because He didn't! Wow! Revelation!

After Katrina, some atheists on this board began attacking God, saying that God is heartless because He caused all the disasters and made everybody suffer. Well, stop thinking that, because:

a) Every human will die. It doesn't matter whether it is from lung cancer or Hurricane Katrina. God didn't send Katrina to punish those specific poor people in Louisinia. People will die regardless.

b) If you're blaming God for the deaths and destruction from the disaster, who is blaming anybody when abortion is legalised? Why is criticising God for taking lives as easy as ignoring God's commands and throwing away His gifts when He actually grants life to you?

c) "Oh God! You are all loving! You shouldn't cause disasters!" Shall I remind you that God is not only loving, but also just? Death is a punishment for our sins, sins that we chose in free will to commit. You start complaining when God allows disasters, but I don't see you complaining when you're breaking God's heart with your sins? That's really hypocritical. Like. Really.

Now now. Let the flaming begin. :rolleyes:

you fool
they cant have been blaming god then they would not be athiists
I`m agnostatick, but if god is out there he must be some evil dude
but if he aint evil thatn he is not almighty couse he didnt stop those things

Maybe its because God dosen't like asians or black people

Wow... Atheists blaming god? And here was me thinking they don't believe god exists.
Yeah. Isn't that like covering your eyes and chanting, "Nothing's there" while faced with a rabid badger?
It seems that some atheists are resorting to desperate lengths with Bush in office, at least around here, anyway. Hence, I've come to hate the term. I'll go with "secular humanist".

I know. What are they thinking?

Can you show me that thread? I sure would like to know who said "I don't believe god exists, but who could he cause such disaster?"

I am an atheist. Thus, since there are no gods, no blame can be given.

Can you show me that thread? I sure would like to know who said "I don't believe god exists, but who could he cause such disaster?"

It's late. I don't bother to search. But it was the impression I got.

"If there is a god then He would be heartless because he causes all the disasters."

I apologise if my wording in the first post misled people.

It's late. I don't bother to search. But it was the impression I got.

"If there is a god then He would be heartless because he causes all the disasters."

I apologise if my wording in the first post misled people.

But that doesn't even ask why god did anything... it just states that if there was a god, he couldn't be inherently benevolent. A purely theoretical speculation with a logical conclusion...

But that doesn't even ask why god did anything... it just states that if there was a god, he couldn't be inherently benevolent. A purely theoretical speculation with a logical conclusion...

Well then, in my position as a theist this question rings louder than it may do for you. You are assuming God doesn't exist, so the question is a theoretical question. But for me, assuming that God exists, the question is a critical one. Hence the thread.

Maybe its because God dosen't like asians or black people

Then why did he create them? :rolleyes:

you fool
they cant have been blaming god then they would not be athiists

Yeah, but they always grab an oppertunity to flame Christianity. :rolleyes:

Well then, in my position as a theist this question rings louder than it may do for you. You are assuming God doesn't exist, so the question is a theoretical question. But for me, assuming that God exists, the question is a critical one. Hence the thread.

No, I assume that god exists. But I don't believe he's omnipotent, hence he may not be the one to blame for hurricanes.

That asside, if I look at that post, it seems to me like you are trying desperately to come up with explanations and twist common sense to make them seem plausible...

Fact is, god is either omnipotent, in which case he is responsible for the hurricane that killed not only sinners but also innocents (maybe even unborn babies, who knows? Some form of divine abortion...), in which case he is not omnibenevolent nor just.
Or else he is omnibenevolent and just, in which case he cannot be omnipotent, because he wouldn't have killed perfectly innocent people.
Take your pick.

Or if you took the logic of that snake-handler Pat Robertson,

one could argue it was for Bush's wars on conquest on
Afghanistan & Iraq. (remember Taliban offered to hand
Osama over to a 3rd country. at that point Bush said,
we will not negotiate with terrorists. even though that's what they'd
been doing up until that point. and oops. I guess the offer
never happened, huh?)


But does anybody really take that creep Robertson seriously?
Maybe a few thousand of his particular sect of christianity?

Humans by nature are not all knowing. Blaming God because what you percieve to be bad things happening seems like a waste of time. We have a very limited veiw of the world, of course nothing makes sense to us. I don't see the point in attacking God, for things that we have no idea about.

Your logic is unsound and proves the God of the Bible doesn't exist. By Christian theology God is Omnipotent, Omniscent, Omnibenificent and Omnipresnet. Every single disaster proves this wrong.



Simply because He didn't! Wow! Revelation!

After Katrina, some atheists on this board began attacking God, saying that if there was a god, He is heartless because He caused all the disasters and made everybody suffer. Well, stop thinking that, because:

a) Every human will die. It doesn't matter whether it is from lung cancer or Hurricane Katrina. God didn't send Katrina to punish those specific poor people in Louisinia. People will die regardless.

b) If you're blaming God for the deaths and destruction from the disaster, who is blaming anybody when abortion is legalised? Why is criticising God for taking lives as easy as ignoring God's commands and throwing away His gifts when He actually grants life to you?

c) "Oh God! You are all loving! You shouldn't cause disasters!" Shall I remind you that God is not only loving, but also just? Death is a punishment for our sins, sins that we chose in free will to commit. You start complaining when God allows disasters, but I don't see you complaining when you're breaking God's heart with your sins? That's really hypocritical. Like. Really.

Now now. Let the flaming begin. :rolleyes:

Simply because He didn't! Wow! Revelation!

After Katrina, some atheists on this board began attacking God, saying that if there was a god, He is heartless because He caused all the disasters and made everybody suffer. Well, stop thinking that, because:

a) Every human will die. It doesn't matter whether it is from lung cancer or Hurricane Katrina. God didn't send Katrina to punish those specific poor people in Louisinia. People will die regardless.

b) If you're blaming God for the deaths and destruction from the disaster, who is blaming anybody when abortion is legalised? Why is criticising God for taking lives as easy as ignoring God's commands and throwing away His gifts when He actually grants life to you?

c) "Oh God! You are all loving! You shouldn't cause disasters!" Shall I remind you that God is not only loving, but also just? Death is a punishment for our sins, sins that we chose in free will to commit. You start complaining when God allows disasters, but I don't see you complaining when you're breaking God's heart with your sins? That's really hypocritical. Like. Really.

Now now. Let the flaming begin. :rolleyes:

First of all...Athiests dont "blame" God.

We dont believe in any God.

But..the point of that is, that no kind benevolent loving, just God, would kill 300,000 people in the blink of an eye, ergo..he does not exist.

If you disagree...then you arent worshiping a very nice God at all are you?

Also, if you're saying that those people deserved what happened to them becuase they were "sinners"...then that makes you a heartless monster, and not worthy of the faith you claim to have.

Youre supposed to have compassion, remember?


People will die regardless?

Someday, sure.
Everyone dies.

Not everyone goes out screaming, terrified, in a giant wave of destruction.

CAN YOU POSSIBLY IMAGINE SUCH A THING, CHRISTIAN?

Imagine dying cold, scared, and watching your loved ones die.

You think any sort of loving God would allow that?

How in the world can you actually make exscuses for that kind of barbarism and evil?

You christians want it both ways.
You want to think that God loves you, and you deserve his love, but when you show such lack of compassion, towards such a unimaginable wake of destruction...you dont think God did it?

You want to think that God is all powerful, and makes everything happen, but when horrible shit happens....oh..thats not God's fault?

Why cant you see how hippocritical that is?

lets look at your points:
a) Every human will die. It doesn't matter whether it is from lung cancer or Hurricane Katrina. God didn't send Katrina to punish those specific poor people in Louisinia. People will die regardless.

So, all those thousands of people would have died, on that very day, in the very same manner, if 'god" hadnt sent that hurricane?
Thats stupid and you know it.
Yes they all would have died someday, but NOT ALL AT THE SAME TIME, AND IN SUCH A HORRIBLE WAY.

your second point has little to do with this discussion, and shall not be quoted.
Suffice it to say your making exscuses for God, wich I find silly.



c) "Oh God! You are all loving! You shouldn't cause disasters!" Shall I remind you that God is not only loving, but also just? Death is a punishment for our sins, sins that we chose in free will to commit. You start complaining when God allows disasters, but I don't see you complaining when you're breaking God's heart with your sins? That's really hypocritical. Like. Really

Are you trying to say that becuase these people were sinners...that God has the right to snuff THOUSANDS of them out, all at once?

What kind of shit is that?

THATS hippocritical.

Simply because He didn't! Wow! Revelation!

After Katrina, some atheists on this board began attacking God, saying that if there was a god, He is heartless because He caused all the disasters and made everybody suffer. Well, stop thinking that, because:

a) Every human will die. It doesn't matter whether it is from lung cancer or Hurricane Katrina. God didn't send Katrina to punish those specific poor people in Louisinia. People will die regardless.

b) If you're blaming God for the deaths and destruction from the disaster, who is blaming anybody when abortion is legalised? Why is criticising God for taking lives as easy as ignoring God's commands and throwing away His gifts when He actually grants life to you?

c) "Oh God! You are all loving! You shouldn't cause disasters!" Shall I remind you that God is not only loving, but also just? Death is a punishment for our sins, sins that we chose in free will to commit. You start complaining when God allows disasters, but I don't see you complaining when you're breaking God's heart with your sins? That's really hypocritical. Like. Really.

Now now. Let the flaming begin. :rolleyes:Proper commie atheists would blame Katrina on the US climate policies and not on God. ;)

Death is a punishment for our sins, sins that we chose in free will to commit.


How can I "choose in free will to commit" sin if I am created with a sinful nature?
(EDIT: Plus, the ultimate question should be "why did God allow the disaster to occur?")

Your logic is unsound and proves the God of the Bible doesn't exist. By Christian theology God is Omnipotent, Omniscent, Omnibenificent and Omnipresnet. Every single disaster proves this wrong.It almost sounds like you missed the parts where the first born sons of Egypt are slaughtered or where Sodom and Ghamorrha are burnt to cinders...

Stop asking the question: why did God cause the disasters

I didn't ask the question. I already knew the answer. God is a miserable bastard.

The question I'm asking is "Why do fundies create strawmen?"

QUOTE: Yeah, but they always grab an oppertunity to flame Christianity.

Yeah well, the Christians always grab an opertunity to flame Abortion. Just check the first post.

A purely theoretical speculation with a logical conclusion...

Not really. Here's a website talking about it in some greater detail

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/natevl.html

Are you trying to say that becuase these people were sinners...that God has the right to snuff THOUSANDS of them out, all at once?

What kind of shit is that?

THATS hippocritical.

Have you ever heard the phrase "the wages of sin are death". Everyone will die because they have sinned, all people are sinners and thus all people will die. I don't know why God chose to kill them there, or maybe it wasnt him directly causing it. Here's some extracts from a web page however to demonstrate why your postion is rather flawed

However, to assume that only bad things should happen to bad people is absurd. If that were the case then
Almost no one could win the £3 million lottery.

EVERY flip of a coin would have to go to the most 'virtuous' person(!)

The good would NEVER die first (or young).

hospitals would only be full of 'evil' people (and so why fund them, eh?)

a twin that died one day earlier than another twin, would have to have been 'less good'.

smashing your thumb with a hammer would be reserved for the more evil...(and accordingly, skill and talent would have been 'deserved')

earthquakes only hit the evil cities, and ALL 'evil cities' MUST get earthquakes...

all MINOR illnesses would be 'intelligent'--chickenpox would only infect the 'bad students' and not 'the good students' in a schoolroom (for example)...

those doing 'evil' acts would never live long enough to 'change their ways' [and so most of us would have died in our adolescence-including ME! ]...

forgiveness can NEVER occur--the evil would die before that.


The point should be obvious: to insist that we only get 'what we deserve'immediately is to insist on absurdity and a situation no would could live with.

But there is also another problem with 'deservedness'--what IS it?

Deservedness presupposes some metaphysically 'real' ethical structure of the universe, and only the kind that can be associated with the absolutes of a God who can 'build' natural consequences (e.g. landslides) into ethical actions. All other systems have a 'human contractual' character--hardly something physical laws of plate tectonics should be expected to honor!!! Picking an ethic and agreeing on it, or 'actualizing it' (whatever THAT means!) by sincerity, will, etc. hardly is going to affect global weather patterns that produce hurricanes or tornadoes (unless, of course, one can get the wing-flapping, chaos-leveraging butterfly to flap its wings in the necessary way to steer the hurricane into uninhabited areas of sea...).

So, IF 'deservedness' requires a God anyway (to even make sense of the concept at all), then you sorta cannot use the same thing to argue against Him, now can you?!

We also don't really think about these events as being on a spectrum. For example, if a hurricane is undeserved, is a windstorm? If a windstorm, is a strong breeze that blows my papers out of my hand? If a strong breeze, is a weak breeze that doesn't cool me any (and so I am uncomfortably warm in the bus station)? If weak breeze, is no breeze, so my wind chimes don't make those sweet sounds that I like?

The point is--events scale. If one argues that hurricanes and earthquakes have to be 'deserved', then they are inconsistent if they do not extend that to ALL events--however mild. And this would be an VERY difficult position to defend.

But this problem would itself generalize. When would ANY 'suffering' (even constructive ones) be 'deserved' (ethically speaking)? For example, the soreness I feel after exercising hard--'should' I [ethically speaking, assuming I have paid my dues at the health club ;>) ] experience that?! Or the discomfort associated with 'thinking hard' on a difficult intellectual subject or research paper? Or the dis-equilibrium associated with infatuation? "Deservedness" seems incredibily inappropriate to these situations--why would I assume it would be "clearer" anywhere else?

God loves us and He "allows" these things to happen, just because he doesn't see it that bad and tragical like some of us humans. For the dead and their families, this situation is just another growth phase in their eternal life, on their way to achieve His kingdom.

So quit complaining and talking about "punishment".

Have you ever heard the phrase "the wages of sin are death". Everyone will die because they have sinned, all people are sinners and thus all people will die.

I had to snip out the rest of that, becuase, frankly, it seemed more like barely incoherent rambling.
I think what you wrote was much more legible.

However, I disagree.

The wages of sin, are death, you say...

This presumes I believe in God...wich I dont...so "Sinning" doesnt exist to me.

People do not die from sin...they die becuase thier brains, and hearts eventually grow old, and stop, or something makes them stop.

Sin doesnt even factor into it.

God loves us and He "allows" these things to happen, just because he doesn't see it that bad and tragical like some of us humans. For the dead and their families, this situation is just another growth phase in their eternal life, on their way to achieve His kingdom.

So quit complaining and talking about "punishment".

If you had to watch your children die, in front of you, you would rejoice and thank God for it?

No, you wouldnt.

Punishment is inflicting suffering on another person, for a given, but possibly unknown reason.

Thats punishment.

Simply because He didn't! Wow! Revelation!
Of course not!

God doesn't exist so how can s/he create a hurricane! Duh. ;)

b) If you're blaming God for the deaths and destruction from the disaster, who is blaming anybody when abortion is legalised? Why is criticising God for taking lives as easy as ignoring God's commands and throwing away His gifts when He actually grants life to you?
Wow. Way to make this an abortion thread. Abortion doesn't cause death because the embryo isn't yet a life. Screw off and stop trying to make your thread interesting by throwing in a debate provoking subject.

However, I disagree.

The wages of sin, are death, you say...

This presumes I believe in God...wich I dont...so "Sinning" doesnt exist to me.

Gravity not existing for you will not change its reality


People do not die from sin...they die becuase thier brains, and hearts eventually grow old, and stop, or something makes them stop.

Sin doesnt even factor into it.

Sin is not the physical cause of death, its the metaphysical cause. You cant measure how it causes it but it does

You're contradicting yourself here, Dragons Bay.

Simply because He didn't! Wow! Revelation!
Is said here, by you, but your point c says:
Shall I remind you that God is not only loving, but also just? Death is a punishment for our sins, sins that we chose in free will to commit. You start complaining when God allows disasters

You state:
God didn't send Katrina to punish those specific poor people in Louisinia.
But point C...

And here:
b) If you're blaming God for the deaths and destruction from the disaster, who is blaming anybody when abortion is legalised? Why is criticising God for taking lives as easy as ignoring God's commands and throwing away His gifts when He actually grants life to you?
You seem to be doing some weird equation between the hurricane and abortion that seems to be suggesting that since abortion has been legalized (another thread topic), that shields God from critizism for sending a hurricane and taking lives.

Which you said He didn't do in the first place.

Personally, I try not to second guess God, but no one has ever said God does not weep with this either.

Gravity not existing for you will not change its reality



Sin is not the physical cause of death, its the metaphysical cause. You cant measure how it causes it but it doesAh, yes, but gravity is "physical" and not "metaphysical", so the comparison doesn't really apply.

I may have found the answer as to why God allows disasters to happen. Although it is tragic for those victims involved, all of us will all stop and begin to work as a loving, compassion human group effort to alleviate the suffering, and we get a feeling of how true love really is - giving without gain. If we are also brought to attention the other long-term disasters, like starvation and diseases, I wouldn't doubt we won't be able to solve them.

I may have found the answer as to why God allows disasters to happen. Although it is tragic for those victims involved, all of us will all stop and begin to work as a loving, compassion human group effort to alleviate the suffering, and we get a feeling of how true love really is - giving without gain. If we are also brought to attention the other long-term disasters, like starvation and diseases, I wouldn't doubt we won't be able to solve them.

Er, you sure about that? Take a look at the threads since Katrina!

Stop asking the question: why did God cause the disasters

I agree. Blaming a fictional entity for the weather is quite silly.

I may have found the answer as to why God allows disasters to happen. Although it is tragic for those victims involved, all of us will all stop and begin to work as a loving, compassion human group effort to alleviate the suffering, and we get a feeling of how true love really is - giving without gain. If we are also brought to attention the other long-term disasters, like starvation and diseases, I wouldn't doubt we won't be able to solve them.

Well this point of view that god causes an event so that other things will occur, eg. the greater good, has some problems associated with it. First you would need to believe that your god uses people as tools. For example little susie who is raped and killed just becomes a tool to catalyze a law. It would be as if she was nothing more then a hammer or a nail. Would a loving and just god use people as tools? And secondly you have to look and see if the result of what happened could have been done another way without harm. Could that law that happened as a result of little Susie's rape and murder have come about another way without he needing to be brutally harmed. Could the feeling of unity, compassion, and the outpouring of aid for people have been accomplished in another way rather then God throwing a category 5 storm at NO?

Well this point of view that god causes an event so that other things will occur, eg. the greater good, has some problems associated with it. First you would need to believe that your god uses people as tools. For example little susie who is raped and killed just becomes a tool to catalyze a law. It would be as if she was nothing more then a hammer or a nail. Would a loving and just god use people as tools? And secondly you have to look and see if the result of what happened could have been done another way without harm. Could that law that happened as a result of little Susie's rape and murder have come about another way without he needing to be brutally harmed. Could the feeling of unity, compassion, and the outpouring of aid for people have been accomplished in another way rather then God throwing a category 5 storm at NO?

I don't get it. Why do I need to believe that God uses people as tools?

Well, obviously, because the starving of millions and the masscre of refugees in Darfur couldn't get us there. :rolleyes:

I don't get it. Why do I need to believe that God uses people as tools?

Well, obviously, because the starving of millions and the masscre of refugees in Darfur couldn't get us there. :rolleyes:

If you are used as a means to an end what are you? If god was to have you brutaly tortured and killed in order to make anti torture feelings/laws/etc what else would you be. You are sacrificed for something else with little or no regard for you. I mean if god was to come to me today and say you know what I need you to get stabbed numerous times in a back alley so that there are stricter laws on knives I'd be like can't you do that some other way? If there is a loving god who is all powerful it should be able to accomplish its ends without using me as a means by getting stabbed alot in an alley.

you fool
they cant have been blaming god then they would not be athiists
I`m agnostatick, but if god is out there he must be some evil dude
but if he aint evil thatn he is not almighty couse he didnt stop those things

God is not evil

God is almighty

We can't begin to understand why God does what He does... nor is it our right to judge Him.

Thomas a Kempis (not sure how to put the accent above "a") said, "Man proposes. God disposes."

If you are used as a means to an end what are you? If god was to have you brutaly tortured and killed in order to make anti torture feelings/laws/etc what else would you be. You are sacrificed for something else with little or no regard for you. I mean if god was to come to me today and say you know what I need you to get stabbed numerous times in a back alley so that there are stricter laws on knives I'd be like can't you do that some other way? If there is a loving god who is all powerful it should be able to accomplish its ends without using me as a means by getting stabbed alot in an alley.

Ah now. Nobody needed to be killed. God explicitly told us you aren't allowed to stab people. But there will be people who refuse to listen, because we are all sinners. God does not interfere with the law of the people who don't regard Him as God, you know.

And it almost seems that you are very arrogant with your existence, that nobody can decide what your life will end up but you.

Ah now. Nobody needed to be killed. God explicitly told us you aren't allowed to stab people. But there will be people who refuse to listen, because we are all sinners. God does not interfere with the law of the people who don't regard Him as God, you know.
I'm talking about the typical assumption of people saying that when bad things happen its part of god's plan or its for a greater good.

And it almost seems that you are very arrogant with your existence, that nobody can decide what your life will end up but you.
No I just reserve my judgement. I'm not the one trying to force my beliefs on others on the baisis of a leap of faith. I'm not at all talking about my life only debating under the assumption that people say when something bad happens its part of god's plan and that the god we are talking about is a christian god which is all powerful and omnibenevolant. But thanks for the ad hominem attack though.

Simply because He didn't! Wow! Revelation!

After Katrina, some atheists on this board began attacking God, saying that if there was a god, He is heartless because He caused all the disasters and made everybody suffer. Well, stop thinking that, because:

a) Every human will die. It doesn't matter whether it is from lung cancer or Hurricane Katrina. God didn't send Katrina to punish those specific poor people in Louisinia. People will die regardless.

b) If you're blaming God for the deaths and destruction from the disaster, who is blaming anybody when abortion is legalised? Why is criticising God for taking lives as easy as ignoring God's commands and throwing away His gifts when He actually grants life to you?

c) "Oh God! You are all loving! You shouldn't cause disasters!" Shall I remind you that God is not only loving, but also just? Death is a punishment for our sins, sins that we chose in free will to commit. You start complaining when God allows disasters, but I don't see you complaining when you're breaking God's heart with your sins? That's really hypocritical. Like. Really.

Now now. Let the flaming begin. :rolleyes:



I already answered why God did it here : http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=442980



It's all because it's sweeps week!!!!!

I'm talking about the typical assumption of people saying that when bad things happen its part of god's plan or its for a greater good.
Some bad events are blessings in disguise. If you want to live in a world where no bad things happen, become a Christian and await your death.


No I just reserve my judgement. I'm not the one trying to force my beliefs on others on the baisis of a leap of faith. I'm not at all talking about my life only debating under the assumption that people say when something bad happens its part of god's plan and that the god we are talking about is a christian god which is all powerful and omnibenevolant. But thanks for the ad hominem attack though.

Define "forcing beliefs on others". Not only the religious have beliefs, but atheists have their beliefs too, you know? Or else you wouldn't be typing this up. "Oh, a religious person is expressing his religious views. I feel that they are forcing their beliefs on me!" Replace "religious" with "atheist" and "immoral". The story could be the same for me: "Oh, an evolutionist is expressing his evolutionist views. I feel that they are forcing their beliefs on me!"

Bad things do not happen under God. Bad things happen because the world is under sin.

God put us on this violent planet so we can learn. He isn't going to make it easy for us. Only we can do that.

I am tired of atheists trying to use Katrina to convert me. I see no harm in being Christian and I believe that ignoring god would send me to hell(he did tell us not to kill eachother or sleep with someone else's spouse, plua the whole 'lying and stealing is bad' thing.). Yep. Christianity is supposed to be all about loving eachother as if we were all one big family. You can't use human acts of sin and acts of nature to disprove something. Afterall, evolution was regarded as unproven and impossible when there was no evidence supporting it. You can't disprove something without proof. God loves us enough to let us learn. Plus, all the good that died are partying with him without any care about what we do to their bodies. You can spit on them and wiz on them and the dead wouldn't give a damn.

Some bad events are blessings in disguise. If you want to live in a world where no bad things happen, become a Christian and await your death.
Thats your opinion. I tend to think that the brutal rape and murder of a little girl really wouldn't qualify. I never said I didn't want bad things to happen. I just stated the problems with believing that when a bad thing happens its part of gods plans.




Define "forcing beliefs on others". Not only the religious have beliefs, but atheists have their beliefs too, you know? Or else you wouldn't be typing this up. "Oh, a religious person is expressing his religious views. I feel that they are forcing their beliefs on me!" Replace "religious" with "atheist" and "immoral". The story could be the same for me: "Oh, an evolutionist is expressing his evolutionist views. I feel that they are forcing their beliefs on me!"
Forcing beliefs on others okay lets define it dealing with religious views.. Making people do things that are based off a view that you hold that is based off of speculation and that not all people believe. No one is forcing you to believe in evolution. Science offers it as an explanation of the natural world. Its taught as a theory in science classes because thats what evolution is science. Its the best explanation for what we have now but is in no way the only way it could have happened. For all we know we could discover something that totally disproves the theory and science will accept it and discard evolution. However when you go around saying gays shouldn't marry because god says so your forcing beliefs that can't be proven with facts and logic on others who don't agree with you. And the replace this word with that is a crappy arguement. I'm going to seperate the green apples from the red apples. Replace green with black, red with white, and apples with people and suddenly I'm a racist Oh noes.

Bad things do not happen under God. Bad things happen because the world is under sin.
Because we all know that the sinners and their weather machines are causing all the trouble.

I'm tired of all this "If god exists, then he controls everything, which we know is false, therefore God does not exist and Christianity and Judaism and Islam is all crazy terrorist BS" BS. God does not control everything. He sent us here to learn how to be good because giving us a slave-mentallity would really take away the point of creating us at all.

Not really. Here's a website talking about it in some greater detail

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/natevl.html

Your link is an interesting exercise in apologism and philosophical side stepping, but it doesn't answer the underlying question.

If god exists...

If god is omnipotent...

If god is omnibenevolent...

Then why does god allow suffering and death on such a scale?

If he is omnibenevolent he is antithetical to needless suffering. If he is omnipotent he has the power to "stop" a hurricane.

God isn't one to baby us. Doing so will spoil us and, therefore, is basicly sinning, which he is so opposed to. Also, since slavery is a major sin, he had to give us Mr. Freewill.

God isn't one to baby us. Doing so will spoil us and, therefore, is basicly sinning, which he is so opposed to. Also, since slavery is a major sin, he had to give us Mr. Freewill.

He wont baby us but he will throw a category 5 hurricane at a city below sea level with water surounding it. I'm sorry but thats got to be at least like an alcoholic father coming home and slaping the shit out of a little kid and then getting the rod.

God is not evil

God is almighty

We can't begin to understand why God does what He does... nor is it our right to judge Him.

Thomas a Kempis (not sure how to put the accent above "a") said, "Man proposes. God disposes."

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that god really does exist:

He judges me.

Ergo I have the right to judge him.

Else why else would he give me the capacity for reason?

I've not read much of this, but to the Original Topic Poster:

You missed the point. They are NOT blaming God, they are saying, if he exists, well then, is he not to blame? Of course, God is supposed to be perfect. A perfect being surely wouldn't allow such things to happen? Thus disproving his existence. WHICH IS THEIR POINT.

My answer to that (considering that I'm agnostic) is if he does exist, he's given us free will, and so, crap happens due to our greed, etc, etc.

I'm tired of all this "If god exists, then he controls everything, which we know is false, therefore God does not exist and Christianity and Judaism and Islam is all crazy terrorist BS" BS. God does not control everything. He sent us here to learn how to be good because giving us a slave-mentallity would really take away the point of creating us at all.

But giving us the capacity to reason then punishing us eternally for actually trying to use our gifts is a good reason?

Christians confuse me.

God isn't one to baby us. Doing so will spoil us and, therefore, is basicly sinning, which he is so opposed to. Also, since slavery is a major sin, he had to give us Mr. Freewill.

Which we are eternally punished for using? God is a petty tyrant.

you fool
they cant have been blaming god then they would not be athiists
I`m agnostatick, but if god is out there he must be some evil dude
but if he aint evil thatn he is not almighty couse he didnt stop those things

I like the idea of an 'agnostatick' - a word worthy of inclusion in the national dictionary of the devout people of Kitti-Katti who believe in the Great Mog

The Religious Guidance Council of The Holy Empire of the Kitti-Katti
Third cat basket on the left

Simply because He didn't! Wow! Revelation!

After Katrina, some atheists on this board began attacking God, saying that if there was a god, He is heartless because He caused all the disasters and made everybody suffer. Well, stop thinking that, because:

a) Every human will die. It doesn't matter whether it is from lung cancer or Hurricane Katrina. God didn't send Katrina to punish those specific poor people in Louisinia. People will die regardless.

b) If you're blaming God for the deaths and destruction from the disaster, who is blaming anybody when abortion is legalised? Why is criticising God for taking lives as easy as ignoring God's commands and throwing away His gifts when He actually grants life to you?

c) "Oh God! You are all loving! You shouldn't cause disasters!" Shall I remind you that God is not only loving, but also just? Death is a punishment for our sins, sins that we chose in free will to commit. You start complaining when God allows disasters, but I don't see you complaining when you're breaking God's heart with your sins? That's really hypocritical. Like. Really.

Now now. Let the flaming begin. :rolleyes:


a) Yes, everyone will die. But people in NO would live longer if Katrina hadnt killed her. Now, if god exists, then he had the power to stop that. Why didnt he stopped those people from dying?

b) Well, i think god sucks. And i dont think he gave me life. mmm. Can't refute this acusation, since i dont believe in the christian god :/

c) Yes, i'm sure that god hand picked the sinners to die in NO, and let all inocent live! The armed looters that shot at the police, for example were all inocent!


god i hate god

Wow... Atheists blaming god? And here was me thinking they don't believe god exists.
I don't belive in god I'm not religous at all religion is for cool dudes, I'm a stinking, mouldy, ten year old Jam Doghnut not a cool dude religion is for cool dudes like Doughnut Dude :confused: the pong has confused me

a) Yes, everyone will die. But people in NO would live longer if Katrina hadnt killed her. Now, if god exists, then he had the power to stop that. Why didnt he stopped those people from dying?

b) Well, i think god sucks. And i dont think he gave me life. mmm. Can't refute this acusation, since i dont believe in the christian god :/

c) Yes, i'm sure that god hand picked the sinners to die in NO, and let all inocent live! The armed looters that shot at the police, for example were all inocent!


god i hate god

Uh, if a God exists that's as powerful as we presuppose...I think it would be quite useless to explain the rationality of a being who has powers that defy rational thinking. God could make 2 + 2 = 5. There could be a good reason for suffering, there may not be, but we, as small powerless beings, could never fully grasp the concept of omnipotence.

a) Yes, everyone will die. But people in NO would live longer if Katrina hadnt killed her. Now, if god exists, then he had the power to stop that. Why didnt he stopped those people from dying?

b) Well, i think god sucks. And i dont think he gave me life. mmm. Can't refute this acusation, since i dont believe in the christian god :/

c) Yes, i'm sure that god hand picked the sinners to die in NO, and let all inocent live! The armed looters that shot at the police, for example were all inocent!


god i hate god


It was armed guards shooting and killing not viceversa :sniper: The looters were just looting to live. You need to improve your grammar

It was armed gards shooting and killing not viceversa :sniper: The looters were just looting to live and you need to improve your grammar

Yea those cops were just looting that walmart because they needed a new pair of shoes. I mean walking around all day in a store taking what you want has got to really put alot of stress on the feet. :rolleyes:

It was armed gards shooting and killing not viceversa The looters were just looting to live and you need to improve your grammar

Because we all know how important new TVs and DVD players are for living.

Because we all know how important new TVs and DVD players are for living.
But they weren't taking tv's and dvd players.

Basically this whole thread is about the nature of god(s), and I think nature is all there is to the nature of god.

So to start with a question, what are the necessary aspects of a god? Aspects which are common to all gods in all religions.

So far, but this only goes for the western monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam and all their various offshoots), I get to an omniscient, omnipotent entity with neither beginning nor end, which also is good. The problem is that this definition does not seemingly carry on into most of the polytheistic religions.

The whole of nature can be seen as an unchanging, all powerful, all knowing god. However, there is no point in using the g-word, where other words, such as nature and truth, are also available. Also this `god' is not supernatural, since its largest component, nature as a whole, which encompasses all other components, and is the same, is still natural. Also this entity is not good, but neutral.

One interpretation theists tend to give is that their god at some point took his hands off and let nature take over. If this would be the case, then none of the things happening can be attributed to this god. Also, this would go against the unchanging nature of the god (from meddling to nonmeddling), and further would cast severe doubt on any benevolence on the part of the god. Standing by idly while suffering is going on does not befit an omnipotent, good being.

Another interesting aspect, is the creation-myth presented by these monotheistic religions. Their supposedly benevolent deity saw fit to put a tree up before his creations and forbade them to touch it. As it, being omniscient, knew well ahead, they would touch the forbidden fruit, and does would give it the opportunity to punish them. Since `god' was good, the choice to `sin' was made out of free will by the creatures. But then this perfect being created imperfect beings (having the ability to `sin'), casting severe doubt on its own infallibility. Knowing about their coming demise, it did not even try to prevent it. On another note, expecting these creatures to do its every command, sound just right for the slaver, so far for benevolence.

Of the three mentioned, Christianity scores extra on the evil scale. First of all, the morality it teaches is even worse than capitalism. Where the moral base of capitalism might be summed up by "Killing is my business,... and business is good", Christianity teaches that "Jesus died for our sins", in other words, "sin as much as you want", implicitly saying "you must sin more than you want". On another note, since Christianity teaches that the messiah, as foreseen in Judaism, already arrived, it says that we're now already living in the age beyond, and everything is good and there is peace. In essence it's saying to all the sufferers that they are not suffering, and of all the wars that they are peace. This to add insult to the injury of the victims. This last part does of course apply to all the cults, not only Christianity in all its sects, that do celebrate someone as this messiah, such as for example Chabad.

Some theists do however hold on to disasters being punishments visited by their vengeful god. The most notable in this respect, at least as far as I know of, with respect to the hurricane Katrina, was by rabbi Ovadia Yosef. He said that the hurricane was punishment for the American support for the pull-out plan (pull-out of Israel from Gaza). Normally I would refrain from mentioning religious lunatics, but since the thread started with an assault on those asking for explanations for disasters, it would only be a fitting end. On a side note, this rabbi has recently gone through the roof with claiming disasters as godly punishments, and this one was explained as a `misunderstanding' by an aide.

ps: I used `it' as pronoun for god, since I did not want to personify to `him' or `her'. In any case, this is at least in line with Judaism and Christianity, since in the Tanach masculine, feminine, singular, and plural are used as pronouns for god, and thus the neutral `it' seems most fitting, especially since Hebrew lacks the neutral sex.

If god exists, we are his Sims.

Of the three mentioned, Christianity scores extra on the evil scale. First of all, the morality it teaches is even worse than capitalism. Where the moral base of capitalism might be summed up by "Killing is my business,... and business is good", Christianity teaches that "Jesus died for our sins", in other words, "sin as much as you want", implicitly saying "you must sin more than you want".

I dont know where you got that from.

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life


On another note, since Christianity teaches that the messiah, as foreseen in Judaism, already arrived, it says that we're now already living in the age beyond, and everything is good and there is peace. In essence it's saying to all the sufferers that they are not suffering, and of all the wars that they are peace. This to add insult to the injury of the victims. This last part does of course apply to all the cults, not only Christianity in all its sects, that do celebrate someone as this messiah, such as for example Chabad.

Erm, can you biblically support that idea. Obviously we think Jesus has come, but we dont think the end times have arrived yet, nor is there anything biblical which would support your idea that we do not think suffering is suffering.

Simply because He didn't! Wow! Revelation!

After Katrina, some atheists on this board began attacking God, saying that if there was a god, He is heartless because He caused all the disasters and made everybody suffer. Well, stop thinking that, because:

a) Every human will die. It doesn't matter whether it is from lung cancer or Hurricane Katrina. God didn't send Katrina to punish those specific poor people in Louisinia. People will die regardless.

I agree with you to a point, but only to a point. The fact we have to come to grips with is the old Theist understanding of God is obselete. Granted God did not may cause the Katrina; however, if we assume the old Theist deffintion of a All Powerful God that can and does mess with the natural order of things and performs miricles, He did nothing to stop it. This puts Him in the same boat as a lousy SOB police officer who turns the otherway while someone gets murdered. If on the otherhand, when we view God as the Ground of Being or That Which is Made Manifest in Love, we see God acting through humans in the rescue effort.

b) If you're blaming God for the deaths and destruction from the disaster, who is blaming anybody when abortion is legalised? Why is criticising God for taking lives as easy as ignoring God's commands and throwing away His gifts when He actually grants life to you?

It is because we (at least some of us) who feel abortion is right don't consider the fetus a thinking human being (ie it does not have human brain waves). We hear the stories of "mirricles" and people being saved by certain death, but what kind of capricious God plays favorites saving some and leaving others to die. The old "God moves in mysterious ways," argument has no weight when we are talking about an all powerful Deiety that can change all the rules.

c) "Oh God! You are all loving! You shouldn't cause disasters!" Shall I remind you that God is not only loving, but also just? Death is a punishment for our sins, sins that we chose in free will to commit. You start complaining when God allows disasters, but I don't see you complaining when you're breaking God's heart with your sins? That's really hypocritical. Like. Really.

Now now. Let the flaming begin. :rolleyes:

Again if you are stuck with the old Theist view of an all-powerful God, this doesn't make sense. An all powerful God can choose to make the laws of Logic whatever He wants (if not then He is controled and confined by Logic which must then exist seperate from Him and be more powerful than Him.) He could have created us so we have free will but would choose never to sin but instead choose make us imprefect as we are.

Humans by nature are not all knowing. Blaming God because what you percieve to be bad things happening seems like a waste of time. We have a very limited veiw of the world, of course nothing makes sense to us. I don't see the point in attacking God, for things that we have no idea about.

Exactly. We don't know what God 'wants' or even what it is( if it exists at all) That means that all religions are traditions and superstition that provide answers to questions that cannot be answered.