NationStates Jolt Archive

You're mayor of a city that has been hit by a natural disaster of epic proportions. You've been cursing and shouting to whomever would listen that you're not getting enough help from the Feds...So what do you do?

You send your police force and other first responders on all expenses paid vacations to Las Vegas. I wish I were joking.

Mr. Nagin, who has been demanding more federal assistance for days as his city struggled with despair, death and flooding, said he had asked the Federal Emergency Management Agency to pay for the trips but the agency said it could not. He said the city, therefore, would pay the costs.

.....

The officials were planning to send 1,500 workers out in two shifts for five days each. They are sending them to Las Vegas because of the availability of hotel rooms and to Atlanta because many of them had relatives there.

.......

Colonel Ebbert, the senior official running the recovery and rescue operation, and Mr. Compass both said that they planned to take a break as well, but probably for less than five days, and that they would continue to direct the recovery by telephone.

Un-freaking-believable!

I think it's now time for Nagin to shut his mouth about not getting enough support. If he has the capacity to send people on all expense paid trips to Vegas, then he doesn't need any more help from the Feds.

What a slap in the face to all those firefighters and police officers from all around the country who rushed to N. O. to assist in the rescue and recovery effots.


Yeaaah.

So can someone please tell me against as to how George Bush is at fault, when the mayor decides to send the police force to Las Vegas with a Category 5 hurricane knocking on his doorstep?

Mr.Nagin was fully aware that this storm was of epic proprtions and it was certain it would hit New Orleans several days in advance.
I'm sorry he didnt take this opporotunity to round up all the available buses and transportation and get the poor people and those without transportation of their own out of the path of the storm. Today he would be a hero, instead of trying to point blame at everyone else.
Hindsight is 20/20 though. I dont think anyone truly imagined it would be as bad as it was until it was too late. I dont think anyone deliberately neglected anyone else here.
The ground work to prevent all the mistakes that were made this time should be well underway now. Not just in that area for hurricanes, but all around our country for any large scale civil emergency. The entire country is vulnerable to a variety of natural disasters and we all are holding our breath for deliberate terrorist attacks. Our enemies are collecting a wealth of information on how poorly we responded to this emergency and planning accordingly. The will take full advantage of the confusion and finger pointing.
We better be too.

natural disaster are a federal issue.

they should have worked with state and local officials to have
an operable plan.

apparently the crony appointment of a former commissioner
of the International Arabian Horse Association seemed
like a good way to stop a hurricane.

cronyism has happened before and will happen again.
don't be surprised.


Oh, all those cuts that that could have helped reinforce
what was considered #1 on the list for natural disasters -N.O.,
those didn't help either.

Natural disasters are a federal issue.

natural disaster are a federal issue.

they should have worked with state and local officials to have
an operable plan.

apparently the crony appointment of a former commissioner
of the International Arabian Horse Association seemed
like a good way to stop a hurricane.

cronyism has happened before and will happen again.
don't be surprised.


Oh, all those cuts that that could have helped reinforce
what was considered #1 on the list for natural disasters -N.O.,
those didn't help either.

Natural disasters are a federal issue.


No, disasters start at the local level (who f*cked up) then it goes to state (who f*cked up), then it goes to federal (who f*cked up)

The levies wouldn't have been upgraded any way as that was estimated to take over a decade to complete.


Oh, right. Bush is all evil who manipulated the weather to create the storm and had secret service agents go down to NO and weaken the levies and put confusion drugs in the mayor and governors morning coffee.

No, disasters start at the local level (who f*cked up) then it goes to state (who f*cked up), then it goes to federal (who f*cked up)

Thanks for the good info.

ALL disaster relief in this country is based on the simple principal of keeping the LOCALS in charge.

And if the locals are idiots... then this is what you get.

By the way... FEMA volunteers to the New Orleans area are told to be prepared for 30 days of very hard living where they will be provided rations, water and 'maybe shelter'.

God Bless those jumping IN to help, and may he have mercy on those jumping OUT.

Canada City']Yeaaah.

So can someone please tell me against as to how George Bush is at fault, when the mayor decides to send the police force to Las Vegas with a Category 5 hurricane knocking on his doorstep?
The article that you posted (and did not link to, I might add), is from an extremely biased source (Free Republic). Do you have a link from an unbiased source that would support this allegation?

If this story is untrue and/or misguided propaganda, it could result in a negative backlash by those who are considering sending donations to help the relief process in New Orleans.

Actually, it was Katrina that caused the mess in New Orleans. :rolleyes:

I think the fault in Katrina lies at the feet of several people: New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin (who has just sabotaged any future political career in my book), Louisiana Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (who was also extremely ineffectual in this crisis), FEMA, and President Bush. About the only people who don't have to hang their heads in this are the military and the Coast Guard.

Nagin was much too slow to order mandatory evacuations, Blanco could have and should have immediately called the National Guard into action, forcibly removing people if necessary to get them out of harm's way, and she should have declared martial law right off the bat. The government, city OR state, should have commandeered whatever foodstuffs or essentials it could to make sure the people who needed food the most got it. FEMA has shown themselves to be a collection of bumbling idiots.

And cutting funding for maintaining the levvys to fund an immoral, unjust war? President Bush, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

The article that you posted (and did not link to, I might add), is from an extremely biased source (Free Republic). Do you have a link from an unbiased source that would support this allegation?

If this story is untrue and/or misguided propaganda, it could result in a negative backlash by those who are considering sending donations to help the relief process in New Orleans.

http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05vegas.html&OP=54efa43fQ2FT1gVTPvIQ3AEvvQ5ESTSdd(TdhTd(TQ238Q5EsvQ238OTQ238Q5EsvQ238OQ3AigIs8OTd(ygQ7D8Q3A3lQ5Eb O

New york times.

The extra opinion piece is from here:

http://www.camedwards.com/archives/002503.html

You see, unlike Liberals, I don't make up shit. I actually use sources.

Actually, it was Katrina that caused the mess in New Orleans. :rolleyes:

Don't you just love it when true statements are funny

natural disaster are a federal issue.

they should have worked with state and local officials to have
an operable plan.

apparently the crony appointment of a former commissioner
of the International Arabian Horse Association seemed
like a good way to stop a hurricane.

cronyism has happened before and will happen again.
don't be surprised.


Oh, all those cuts that that could have helped reinforce
what was considered #1 on the list for natural disasters -N.O.,
those didn't help either.

Natural disasters are a federal issue.


You have no clue what you are talking about. Disasters are a local and state issue. The federal government only gets involved when they are ASKED to help. Hurricanes I'm not so sure about even though they are a natural disaster/

Don't you just love it when true statements are funny

I didn't know a hurricane can cause looting or helicopters getting shot up.

Thats one bad MOFO.

No, disasters start at the local level (who f*cked up) then it goes to state (who f*cked up), then it goes to federal (who f*cked up)


Hurricanes are a FEMA matter.
Look it up


That's not to say those other levels have no responsibility.


N.O. should not have been left to rot for decades

Canada City']http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05vegas.html&OP=54efa43fQ2FT1gVTPvIQ3AEvvQ5ESTSdd(TdhTd(TQ238Q5EsvQ238OTQ238Q5EsvQ238OQ3AigIs8OTd(ygQ7D8Q3A3lQ5Eb O

New york times.

The extra opinion piece is from here:

http://www.camedwards.com/archives/002503.html

You see, unlike Liberals, I don't make up shit. I actually use sources.

Thanks for the links.

You know something, unlike the people coming IN to help out, they didn't just live through a Hurricane, see their homes and city destroyed, and aren't worried about the wellbeing and safety of their familly members, friends, etc.

The first responders of New Orleans are under more stress than any guardsman or FEMA member there, have been at it since BEFORE the hurrican struck including dealing with the evacuation and the shelters, and there have already been suicides on the force from the stress.

Do I think a five day break might be on the excessive side? Yeah maybe.

But even FEMA workers and guardsmen get days off, and the newcomers haven't dealt with nothing compared to the first responders of New Orleans.




But you are painting this like it some goddamn vacation to party and relax, and that is a crock of shit and you know it.


After the past two weeks that these fine men and women have endured, they don't just deserve a break - they NEED a fucking break.


But since you are tossing political labels around, should I ask you why you conservatives can't manage to have the barest hint of empathy to put yourself in their shoes for just a minute before you piss all over these people?

natural disasters are a federal issue.

this i have to quote...maybe if I use a different font size....maybe they(bushites) can get it.

natural disasters are a federal issue.

:eek: Wal-Mart is asking their employees for volunteers to go down to the Hurricane ravaged areas.

I see nothing wrong with giving the police a WELL DESERVED vacation. The military has everything under control now. I just hope the "deserters" (I'm quoting the article here) don't get squat.

this i have to quote...maybe if I use a different font size....maybe they(bushites) can get it.

natural disasters are a federal issue.
I'll quote this so they (the labelists) can understand it.
NATURAL DISASTERS ARE EVERYONES ISSUE

You have no clue what you are talking about. Disasters are a local and state issue. The federal government only gets involved when they are ASKED to help. Hurricanes I'm not so sure about even though they are a natural disaster/


Wrong.

The moment that GW declared it a disaster area, which he did even BEFORE the storm hit, this made it a FEDERAL matter under the terms of the National Reponse Plan.

This was part of wresting control for such things from the State that the Republicans did after 911. Try reading it.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/editorial/editorial_0566.xml


GW's declarations made Hurricane Katrina an "Incident of National Significance." The NRP defines an Incident of National Significance as:

"an actual or potential high-impact event that requires a coordinated and effective response by and appropriate combination of Federal, State, local, tribal, nongovernmental, and/or private-sector entities in order to save lives and minimize damage, and provide the basis for long-term community recovery and mitigation activities."

This categorization imposes upon the President and his administration unique powers and responsibilities under the NRP.

To continue from this legislation, the plan specifically recognizes the possibility that the FEDERAL government bears primary responsibility:


"When an incident or potential incident is of such severity, magnitude, and/or complexity that it is considered an Incident of National Significance, the Secretary of Homeland Security initiates actions to prepare for, respond to, and recover from the incident." (NHP, 15)


Additionally, the NRP explicitly gives the President a fiduciary duty in the handling of a disaster:


"The President leads the Nation in responding efficiently and ensuring the necessary resources are applied quickly and effectively to all Incidents of National Significance." (NHP, 15)



The Republicans MADE disaster recovery a Federal Reponsibity after 9/11. Now, after failing miserably, they are pretending like it wasn't their job after all.

The buck stops nowhere it seems these days.

Wrong.

The moment that GW declared it a disaster area, which he did even BEFORE the storm hit, this made it a FEDERAL matter under the terms of the National Reponse Plan.

This was part of wresting control for such things from the State that the Republicans did after 911. Try reading it.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/editorial/editorial_0566.xml


GW's declarations made Hurricane Katrina an "Incident of National Significance." The NRP defines an Incident of National Significance as:

"an actual or potential high-impact event that requires a coordinated and effective response by and appropriate combination of Federal, State, local, tribal, nongovernmental, and/or private-sector entities in order to save lives and minimize damage, and provide the basis for long-term community recovery and mitigation activities."

This categorization imposes upon the President and his administration unique powers and responsibilities under the NRP.

To continue from this legislation, the plan specifically recognizes the possibility that the FEDERAL government bears primary responsibility:


"When an incident or potential incident is of such severity, magnitude, and/or complexity that it is considered an Incident of National Significance, the Secretary of Homeland Security initiates actions to prepare for, respond to, and recover from the incident." (NHP, 15)


Additionally, the NRP explicitly gives the President a fiduciary duty in the handling of a disaster:


"The President leads the Nation in responding efficiently and ensuring the necessary resources are applied quickly and effectively to all Incidents of National Significance." (NHP, 15)



The Republicans MADE disaster recovery a Federal Reponsibity after 9/11. Now, after failing miserably, they are pretending like it wasn't their job after all.

The buck stops nowhere it seems these days.


Thanks for correcting me. I can admit I was wrong. Forget about all the changes after 9/11, but don't the FEDS still have to be called in?

I see nothing wrong with giving the police a WELL DESERVED vacation. The military has everything under control now. I just hope the "deserters" (I'm quoting the article here) don't get squat.

Fuck you.

A well deserved vacation? Let's look back at 9-11. You have fire fighters and police officers pulling their dead buddies from the rubble, trying to calm down the people covered by the dust of the former WTC.

Imagine if the mayor of new york said "Guys, you must be totally bummed out by this. You can go to atlantic city or las vegas, your choice. The city will pay for it. We'll let the military handle the terrorist attack."

Yes it does suck that their homes are wrecked, many people are homeless, and the water is nothing more then toxic sludge. However, the had a warning and the mayor, with all his power, could've evacuated a huge majority of the people who weren't able to. Instead he sends the police on vacation.

I saw a picture of flooded school buses. Why weren't those used? Why did the police go on vacation when there is a disaster in their own town? This is a mockery of the police system and it almost makes me HAPPY that the filth of a town known as NO is flooded. Corrupted cops, lazy mayor, and looters. This is going to be a shit stain for 'leader of the free world' called United States of America.

Canada City']http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05vegas.html&OP=54efa43fQ2FT1gVTPvIQ3AEvvQ5ESTSdd(TdhTd(TQ238Q5EsvQ238OTQ238Q5EsvQ238OQ3AigIs8OTd(ygQ7D8Q3A3lQ5Eb O

New york times.

The extra opinion piece is from here:
Thanks for the link. The extra "opinion piece" is just a conservative blog.

Canada City']You see, unlike Liberals, I don't make up shit. I actually use sources.
Nice flame. As a self respecting liberal, I always provide references, and have no desire to "make up shit". On the other hand, there are many "others" here who are not "liberals" that thrive on opinion being equal to fact, when in fact it has no basis in reality.

Perhaps the best way for you to avoid future contoversey would be to post links to unbiased news sources first, and foremost?

I'll quote this so they (the labelists) can understand it.
NATURAL DISASTERS ARE EVERYONES ISSUEThe Policemen and Firemen did all they could...with the resources they had...even if some of them had their Homes and Families wiped out by the Hurricane...

I cant say the same about Bush and FEMA...(they did not do all they could...not until after Venezuela and Cuba offered help...not until after the Media exposed their "extreme passive attitude" "and started to talk about race issues)...

But that was/is too late...People were murdered and raped at the Superdome...Bush can now send one million soldiers...but FEMA cant resuscitate the murdered victims.

The reason Disasters like this one are a FEDERAL ISSUE...is because the local town(police and Fire Dept) do not have the Resources to deal with it.

Thanks for correcting me. I can admit I was wrong. Forget about all the changes after 9/11, but don't the FEDS still have to be called in?


Shit flows downhill, but authority doesn't flow up. When GW made his pronouncement he undercut State abilities on this matter. And I have yet to see where anyone has stated that Mississipi and Louisiana weren't screaming for help.

Example: New MExico offered guardsmen to help on the Sunday before the storm hit. Lousiana said yes on Monday. It took four days for the Feds to rubber-stamp the documents needed to authorize the deployment of Guardsmen across state lines.

Some things the State DID do wrong, I'll grant you. But the biggest clusterfuck goes with those who had the biggest authority. And that was (and is) the Feds.

Nice flame. As a self respecting liberal, I always provide references, and have no desire to "make up shit". On the other hand, there are many "others" here who are not "liberals" that thrive on opinion being equal to fact, when in fact it has no basis in reality.


That's nice, an example on how the other side should be.

Instead we have shit like Cindy and Moore making up BS.

I also love how our beloved Canadian Prime Minister, Paul Martin, didn't even say anything about Katrina until the next day during a break from a big historical anniversary party he was attending in Alberta.

Shit flows downhill, but authority doesn't flow up. When GW made his pronouncement he undercut State abilities on this matter. And I have yet to see where anyone has stated that Mississipi and Louisiana weren't screaming for help.

Example: New MExico offered guardsmen to help on the Sunday before the storm hit. Lousiana said yes on Monday. It took four days for the Feds to rubber-stamp the documents needed to authorize the deployment of Guardsmen across state lines.

Some things the State DID do wrong, I'll grant you. But the biggest clusterfuck goes with those who had the biggest authority. And that was (and is) the Feds.

Okay I just wanted to make sure that when Bush made the announcement that it changed the way things worked.

I have found it amazing that all of talk radio had the same exact line: "It's not the President's fault, it's the state and City's fault." within ONE DAY of the questioning of the president's actions. And it was repeated over and over until it was memorized. BUT it took 6 days for a hospital ship to leave Norfolk VA. and 7 for a helicopter carrier to arrive in NO. I work with my county's emergency management through ARES/RACES (Ham Radio). We have been told in our training to prepare a backpack with everyting we need to survive for 3 DAYS. Because it would take a MAXIMUM of 3 DAYS for help to arrive no matter what the situation. In fact, if a person is too lazy to put together their own, 72 hour kits are available many places on the internet. NOT 7 day kits---72 hour kits. THAT WAS THE PROMISE! No matter what the disaster, No matter where I ended up---I would receive help in 3 DAYS. Now, one other thing to consider: I don't know what other country is big enought to invade the US--But what if one did? Would the city and state have to hold off the invaders for a week until the feds could get their act together? If the feds can't act in a natural disaster--What makes us think they could react to an invasion? The whole arguement about the city and state being the ones that failed is the same as this. In what way is it different?

The Policemen and Firemen did all they could...with the ressources they had...even if some of them had their Homes and Families wiped out by the Hurricane...

I cant say the same about Bush and FEMA...(they did not do all that could...not until after Venezuela and Cuba offered help...not until after the Media exposed their "extreme passive attitude" "and started to talk about race issues)

The reason Disasters like this one are a FEDERAL ISSUE...is because the local town(police and Fire Dept) do not have the Ressources to deal with it.

And there wouldn't have been as much of an issue is hundreds of NO police hadn't abandoned their posts, the mayor had actually used the resources available to him and evacuated more people and hadn't kicked hundreds of people out of hotels for his own use, if the Governor had activated more of the National Guard BEFORE the hurricane hit and had state police and agencies more prepared.

Everyone dropped the ball on this.

Canada City']Fuck you.

A well deserved vacation? Let's look back at 9-11. You have fire fighters and police officers pulling their dead buddies from the rubble, trying to calm down the people covered by the dust of the former WTC.

Imagine if the mayor of new york said "Guys, you must be totally bummed out by this. You can go to atlantic city or las vegas, your choice. The city will pay for it. We'll let the military handle the terrorist attack."


Yeah. I remember that too. Of course, these guys all had their home to go to after shift. Their families were all safe, warm, and dry, they had power, and the local stores were open so that their wife could get diapers for the kids, food, and fresh water.

Yeah - you're right - it's exactly the same. And I'm sure there was no stress leave given and no PTSD problems afterwards.....

:rolleyes:


Yes it does suck that their homes are wrecked, many people are homeless, and the water is nothing more then toxic sludge. However, the had a warning and the mayor, with all his power, could've evacuated a huge majority of the people who weren't able to. Instead he sends the police on vacation.


enough. You make it sound like they've been having a cakewalk and didn't have to live through all of this.

Your lack of basic humanity is astounding.

I saw a picture of flooded school buses. Why weren't those used? Why did the police go on vacation when there is a disaster in their own town? This is a mockery of the police system and it almost makes me HAPPY that the filth of a town known as NO is flooded. Corrupted cops, lazy mayor, and looters. This is going to be a shit stain for 'leader of the free world' called United States of America.

The fact that you can so easily make the jump to being happy at the misery of so many due, in part, to some mistakes by a few makes me sad for the small-mindedness with which you look for reasons to hate people.


Like I said, a complete lack of empathy.

Let's face fact years of negligence and corruption are coming to light in NO. This can't just be blamed on the sitting mayor, governor, or president. This is years of poor management showing. FEMA had no basic infrastructure to even word with. There was no MANDATORY evacuation. Everybody has crap on their face over this so yeah you can throw some blame on Shrub but be sure you spread the rest around there is plenty for all.

And there wouldn't have been as much of an issue is hundreds of NO police hadn't abandoned their posts...
How low will the Bushites sink?
People love pointing fingers at FEMA and Bush. Let's look at local governmental screwups as well.

Why did 25-33% of the police force of New Orleans disappear before the hurricane hit?
(posts transfered)*****, you say "they disappeared BEFORE the hurricane hit" ???...

that is an outrageous accusation...You are accusing the Firemen and Policemen of extreme cowardice...in order to deflect some Blame from FEMA and Bush.

Do you even have a link for this?...(i dont think so)

I know a third(more or less) of them disappeared at the same time the Hurricane hit...They did not show up after the hit...

Which does not surprise me...Their homes and Family was hit and...and maybe themselves could have been killed...or injured.

This excuse cannot the used by the Feds(FEMA/DHS) or by the Army/NG.

To those of you defending Bush - do you think it is justified, or even remotely close to acceptable, that Bush appointed the former head of a horse association with no relevant experience as the head of FEMA?

Don't you think that someone with experience and/or training might have been able to act more effectively to save lives? It seems to me that a good number of people who might have been saved probably died because Bush FEMA didn't have a competent leader. Do you think Bush holds no responsibility for their deaths? Or is it that you just don't care?

Sure there's plenty of mess to go around - Nagin probably made some very bad decisions, as did most the other politicians involved. But in appointing Micheal Brown as head of FEMA Bush made a decision that wasn't just some mistake - you don't appoint someone someone clearly unqualified to such an important position by mistake. The head of FEMA is completely unqualified because Bush just didn't think FEMA was important enough to need a competent leader, and the lives lost because of his decision are completely his responsibility.

Canada City']That's nice, an example on how the other side should be.
All I asked for was a link. I didn't suggest that you were "making up shit", although many do. :(

Canada City']Instead we have shit like Cindy and Moore making up BS.
This has nothing to do with this thread.

Canada City']I also love how our beloved Canadian Prime Minister, Paul Martin, didn't even say anything about Katrina until the next day during a break from a big historical anniversary party he was attending in Alberta.
This also has nothing to do with this thread, and you need to remember that Martin is the Prime Minister of Canada, not the President of the US, who by the way was still on holiday when Katrina was ravaging New Orleans:

Where was Bush when Katrina struck? (http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20050904/world.htm#4)

Why has it taken George Bush five days to get to New Orleans? President Bush was on holiday in Texas when Katrina struck. He then spent Monday on a pre-arranged political fund-raising tour of California and Arizona, which he did not cancel or curtail. On Tuesday he surveyed the hurricane damage - but only from the flight deck of Air Force One, prompting criticism that he was too detached from the suffering on the ground. He didn't give a speech until Tuesday afternoon ---- 36 hours after the storm first hit ---- and didn't embark on a proper tour of the region until yesterday. Key advisers have come under fire for similar levels of detachment. As the full magnitude of the disaster unfolded, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was seen buying shoes in New York and Dick Cheney remained on holiday.

Citing Martin for any non involvement is crass partisan politics.

To those of you defending Bush - do you think it is justified, or even remotely close to acceptable, that Bush appointed the former head of a horse association with no relevant experience as the head of FEMA?

Don't you think that someone with experience and/or training might have been able to act more effectively to save lives? It seems to me that a good number of people who might have been saved probably died because Bush FEMA didn't have a competent leader. Do you think Bush holds no responsibility for their deaths? Or is it that you just don't care?

Sure there's plenty of mess to go around - Nagin probably made some very bad decisions, as did most the other politicians involved. But in appointing Micheal Brown as head of FEMA Bush made a decision that wasn't just some mistake - you don't appoint someone someone clearly unqualified to such an important position by mistake. The head of FEMA is completely unqualified because Bush just didn't think FEMA was important enough to need a competent leader, and the lives lost because of his decision are completely his responsibility.

You know, until I clicked onto this thread I didn't believe it was possible for Canadians to be Busheviks either. But it just shows you how irresponsible and unthinking the controlling majority of the United States government is within the last 5 years.

Blame the local and state governments for their fuckups in the disaster all you like folks, but the biggest slice of the shit pie belongs to the federal government and Shrub. There's all ready a post a page or two back that shows how the federal government took responsibility for the situation when Shrub declared Katrina a disaster even before she hit New Orleans.

Canada City']I also love how our beloved Canadian Prime Minister, Paul Martin, didn't even say anything about Katrina until the next day during a break from a big historical anniversary party he was attending in Alberta.
BTW, Martin was attending the 100th Anniversaries of Alberta and Saskatchewan. It would have been political suicide to miss those events?

Focus on the American response from the Whie House on down.

You shouldn't blame the mayors, governors or presidents. You should blame the guys who give names to these hurricanes. "Katrina"? Too damned cute! Do you think anyone would stick around to see if they can survive Hurricane Hitler (cat 5)?

http://www.boloji.com/humor/melvin/melvin.htm

[/hijack]

Let's face fact years of negligence and corruption are coming to light in NO. This can't just be blamed on the sitting mayor, governor, or president. This is years of poor management showing. FEMA had no basic infrastructure to even word with. There was no MANDATORY evacuation. Everybody has crap on their face over this so yeah you can throw some blame on Shrub but be sure you spread the rest around there is plenty for all.

Actually, the mayor DID order a mandatory evacuation (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/hurricane.katrina/) before the hurrican hit. The problem, of course, may have been that saying such and having the legal authority to enforce people leaving BEFORE the disaster may not have been in sync. I don't know enough about the law on this matter.


And for those who say that he should have used the buses to get everyone out of town, I wonder if they remember the footage of the clogged highways before the storm hit.

What makes more sense? Sending the loaded buses out ONCE or maybe TWICE to dump people gosh-knows-where (given that Nagin couldn't exactly order other cities to provide adequate shelters in advance), or to keep them in town and try and ferry as many people as possible to storm-proof shelters.


Frankly, I don't think he could have made any other choice on how to utilize them than what he did. After all, he has no authority outside the Parishes of New Orleans.

People to blame:

Bush (in a small part)
Congress (another small Part)
DHS (medium part)
FEMA(Medium Part)
Governor (large part)
NO Mayor (large Part)

When the investigation goes forward, I am placing odds that the Governor of LA and the Mayor of NO gets most of the blame for this.

People to blame:

Bush (in a small part)
Congress (another small Part)
DHS (medium part)
FEMA(Medium Part)
Governor (large part)
NO Mayor (large Part)

When the investigation goes forward, I am placing odds that the Governor of LA and the Mayor of NO gets most of the blame for this.

FEMA will catch most of the blame, and the head of FEMA will be the Bush administration's fall guy (as he should be). That's my prediction.

I read through a copy of the State of Louisiana Emergency Operations Plan. This 45-page document says that "The Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Evacuation and Sheltering Plan (http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/plansindex.htm) is intended to provide a framework within which the parishes can coordinate their actions with State government in order to deal with a catastrophic hurricane."

Here is one interesting paragraph in the plan:

The evacuation plan states that "Local transportation resources should be marshaled and public transportation plans implemented as needed. Announce the location of staging areas for people who need transportation. Public transportation will concentrate on moving people from the staging areas to safety in host parishes with priority given to people with special needs." It also says that the Governor will "Mobilize State transportation resources to aid in the evacuation of people who have mobility and/or health problems. Deploy to support risk area parishes."

It certainly looks like it was the responsibility of the State of Louisiana and the City of New Orleans to make sure that people, and that includes poor people, were evacuated. It didn't happen. So ... it's Bush's fault?

Thanks for correcting me. I can admit I was wrong. Forget about all the changes after 9/11, but don't the FEDS still have to be called in?

in a statement (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html) released on aug. 27th the whitehouse said ,

"The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.

The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures...
Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency."
(bolding mine)

it looks like bush personally declared that the feds were coordinating the disaster relief efforts several days before the levee broke. It also looks like this means that bush had the authority to do pretty much whatever he wanted - not like not having that authority has ever stopped him from suspending habeas corpus or creating an international system of torture camps or anything.

[QUOTE='[NS]Canada City']
You see, unlike Liberals, I don't make up shit. I actually use sources./QUOTE]
That's a rather inflammatory comment isn't it?

I have read the New York Times version of the allegations, and it seems slighty more biased than I would have expected. It presents slated, one sided view of what happened.

And something tells me that it was an ACT OF GOD not some two-faced, lying, scumbag... sorry politician who destroyed New Orleans.

I mentioned it above but no one commented so I'll try again. I am a member of the county emergency management through ARES/RACES (ham radio emergency communications). The nation-wide standard is to have a backpack with 3 DAYS supplies. 72 hour packs are sold by many companies because this is the national standard. Whatever happens we have been promised new supplies in--at most--3 DAYS. This is the FEDERAL standard. Should I blame the city or state if I don't get new food and water in three days?

How low will the Bushites sink?
*****, you say "they disappeared BEFORE the hurricane hit" ???...

that is an outrageous accusation...You are accusing the Firemen and Policemen of extreme cowardice...in order to deflect some Blame from FEMA and Bush.

Do you even have a link for this?...(i dont think so)

I know a third(more or less) of them disappeared at the same time the Hurricane hit...They did not show up after the hit...

Which does not surprise me...Their homes and Family was hit and...and maybe themselves could have been killed...or injured.

This excuse cannot the used by the Feds(FEMA/DHS) or by the Army/NG.

Nice that you "transferred" a quote that I didn't even make and deleted the original posters name. In an effort to pidgeon-hole anybody that thinks the blame isn't "exclusively" Bush's into "Bushite's" , you have apparently completely ignored every other thread on this forum that has posted links to how over 200 police turned in thier badges and how a number joined in the looting. I also didn't mention firemen at all.

You have also ignored the posts were I say the local, state, and federal gov'ts ALL screwed up just so you can put the blame on one person in a blatant show of ignorant partisanship.

People to blame:

Bush (in a small part)
Congress (another small Part)
DHS (medium part)
FEMA(Medium Part)
Governor (large part)
NO Mayor (large Part)

When the investigation goes forward, I am placing odds that the Governor of LA and the Mayor of NO gets most of the blame for this.

Perhaps I'm not seeing this in the right light, but you guys are already trying to work out who to blame for a NATURAL disaster... It seems a little premature considering there are bodies floating through the streets of New Orleans at this very moment. Perhaps if you tried not to blame anyone (yet) the efforts might not be quite so hindered.

Well that's my two pence.

People to blame:

Bush (in a small part)
Congress (another small Part)
DHS (medium part)
FEMA(Medium Part)
Governor (large part)
NO Mayor (large Part).Bushite Wish: Minimum possible blame on Bush and his Cronies

I mentioned it above but no one commented so I'll try again. I am a member of the county emergency management through ARES/RACES (ham radio emergency communications). The nation-wide standard is to have a backpack with 3 DAYS supplies. 72 hour packs are sold by many companies because this is the national standard. Whatever happens we have been promised new supplies in--at most--3 DAYS. This is the FEDERAL standard. Should I blame the city or state if I don't get new food and water in three days?
Clearly you should blame yourself for depending on government.

Clearly you should blame yourself for depending on government.
I'll bet I'm a minority in that I actually have a backpack with food, water, clothing, shelter, survival supplies, etc to last three days with no outside help. I also made one for my college daughter. They each weigh about 40 lbs. I'm going to add enough for a week after this fiasco. Three days sounded like plenty of time for the army and other authorities to show up. Now we know the move like a three legged turtle.

The fact that the feds had to step in before local response got going shows that there was a major breakdown at the local level.

The call that bush made to the governor asking to have NO evacuated never should have had to happen.

I'll bet I'm a minority in that I actually have a backpack with food, water, clothing, shelter, survival supplies, etc to last three days with no outside help. I also made one for my college daughter. They each weigh about 40 lbs. I'm going to add enough for a week after this fiasco. Three days sounded like plenty of time for the army and other authorities to show up. Now we know the move like a three legged turtle.


You are. As am I. Perhaps we should be able to get some sort of Affirmative Action program going for being in a minority status (discounts on long storage food & camping gear, etc). :)

Perhaps I'm not seeing this in the right light, but you guys are already trying to work out who to blame for a NATURAL disaster...

you obviously missed a few things. people were/are dying days after the natural part of the disaster ended because the relief effort was an utter joke and fema wouldn't know how to manage their way out of an empty parking lot, let alone a major emergency. and while new orleans drowned and people were dying the entirety of the executive branch appears to have been on vacation. bush himself found time to both eat cake and fiddle for a bit. offers of help, foreign and domestic, state and private, were turned down or blocked.

it was a natural disaster, yes. but the suffering was greatly increased by an entirely state-created disaster.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/m00nbeast/nitwit.jpg (http://www.filecabi.net/host/file/genius/wmv)

You are. As am I. Perhaps we should be able to get some sort of Affirmative Action program going for being in a minority status (discounts on long storage food & camping gear, etc). :)
Maybe there should be a tax write-off for anyone that can sho they have a 72 hour kit (make that 168 hour kit) Just think how many would be alive today.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/m00nbeast/nitwit.jpg (http://www.filecabi.net/host/file/genius/wmv)
Bush: "...Dont worry...Be happy..."

Maybe there should be a tax write-off for anyone that can sho they have a 72 hour kit (make that 168 hour kit) Just think how many would be alive today.

I like that idea. Methinks I'm going to be writing to my local, state, and federal reps.

If anyone wants to read something spooky: National Geographic--October 2004--pg 92. An exact description of the disaster--10 months early.

There is only one way to look at this. Hurricane Katrina is the most powerful hurricane since Andrew, so let's compare the two.

Hurricane Andrew- Time it took for the States Governor to declare disaster zones=24 hours.

Time it took FEMA to respond after the hurricane=24 hours.

Hurricane Katrina- Time it took for the States Governor to declare disaster zones=24 hours.

Time it took FEMA to respond after the hurricane=5 days.

FEMA was designed to take control of and fund emergency disaster relief. It was after years of study that showed that States, Counties and Cities could not be depended upon as the initail responders for several reasons.

States, Cities and Counties are directly effected by the natural disaster and as such suffer, like in New Orleans, power loss, communications failures and even the loss of emergency responders (local Police, Firefighters and aid workers) from the natural disaster itself. This has been the case throughout history, the people who live where the disaster occurs are logically the least capable of dealing with the disaster.

To say that New Orleans and it's surrounding Parishes and it's local leaders could have been equipped to deal with a hurricane on the scale of Katrina without aid is absolutely ignorant.

in a statement (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html) released on aug. 27th the whitehouse said ,

"The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.

The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures...
Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency."
(bolding mine)

it looks like bush personally declared that the feds were coordinating the disaster relief efforts several days before the levee broke. It also looks like this means that bush had the authority to do pretty much whatever he wanted - not like not having that authority has ever stopped him from suspending habeas corpus or creating an international system of torture camps or anything.


umm thanks.. but this was already cleared up for me.

This thread makes a good point, and you should have put a public or private poll on this thread.

I'll bet I'm a minority in that I actually have a backpack with food, water, clothing, shelter, survival supplies, etc to last three days with no outside help. I also made one for my college daughter. They each weigh about 40 lbs. I'm going to add enough for a week after this fiasco. Three days sounded like plenty of time for the army and other authorities to show up. Now we know the move like a three legged turtle.
That was sort of tongue in cheek. You can always build a still to get fresh water, collect rain water, purify what you can find...Food is secondary. I think you could go several days without food and still survive to be effective.

This thread makes a good point, and you should have put a public or private poll on this thread.
Yeah. This thread's starter completely fucks up the timeline of the disaster, and then coyly asks "So can someone please tell me against as to how George Bush is at fault, when the mayor decides to send the police force to Las Vegas with a Category 5 hurricane knocking on his doorstep?". When did he suggest that "vacation" again? Or was there another hurricane coming after Katrina?!? Missed a few days there, but what the hell, that's to be expected when making things political.

But that was/is too late...People were murdered and raped at the Superdome...Bush can now send one million soldiers...but FEMA cant resuscitate the murdered victims.
Actually, most of these reports about the superdome are unsubstantiated. The one about the two 7 year-old girls being raped and having their throats slit is completely false unless the bodies managed to dissappear on their own. State still has control over most of the forces in the area, the only ones under federal control are FEMA employees and the active Nat. Guard troops. OTOH Blanco has about 30,000 Nat. Guard troops under her personal command that she won't release to federal control. There is no single organization that currently has command over the entire area which is seriously hampering efforts.

Actually, most of these reports about the superdome are unsubstantiated. The one about the two 7 year-old girls being raped and having their throats slit is completely false unless the bodies managed to dissappear on their own. State still has control over most of the forces in the area, the only ones under federal control are FEMA employees and the active Nat. Guard troops. OTOH Blanco has about 30,000 Nat. Guard troops under her personal command that she won't release to federal control. There is no single organization that currently has command over the entire area which is seriously hampering efforts.


I heard that it was women that it was done to.. I guess the media cannot get the story straight.

There is only one way to look at this. Hurricane Katrina is the most powerful hurricane since Andrew, so let's compare the two.

Hurricane Andrew- Time it took for the States Governor to declare disaster zones=24 hours.

Time it took FEMA to respond after the hurricane=24 hours.

Hurricane Katrina- Time it took for the States Governor to declare disaster zones=24 hours.

Time it took FEMA to respond after the hurricane=5 days.

Difference between situations: Kathleen Blanco and Lawton Chiles. Chiles got out of the frigging way. Not so with Blanco.

Difference between situations: Kathleen Blanco and Lawton Chiles. Chiles got out of the frigging way. Not so with Blanco.


I hate to ask this but is 2006 an election year for governor in Louisiana?

Difference between situations: Kathleen Blanco and Lawton Chiles. Chiles got out of the frigging way. Not so with Blanco.
I guess you have pictures of her standing in the road in front of oncoming military trucks, because that would be a funny picture.

I mentioned it above but no one commented so I'll try again. I am a member of the county emergency management through ARES/RACES (ham radio emergency communications). The nation-wide standard is to have a backpack with 3 DAYS supplies. 72 hour packs are sold by many companies because this is the national standard. Whatever happens we have been promised new supplies in--at most--3 DAYS. This is the FEDERAL standard. Should I blame the city or state if I don't get new food and water in three days?

Of course you should, because don't you know that his name isn't George Bush? It's Jesus Christ, and he and his administration can do NO wrong.

/sarcasm

Canada City']Yeaaah.

So can someone please tell me against as to how George Bush is at fault, when the mayor decides to send the police force to Las Vegas with a Category 5 hurricane knocking on his doorstep?

1. Nagin's decision to send New Orleans police officers on a well deserved break occured AFTER those officers have spent over a week trying to look after the city under horrifying conditions. Not before. Twisting your facts a little, aren't you? (source your New York Times link)

2. Has it not occured to you that these officers are also victims of the hurricane? The remaining officers who have not deserted or commited suicide were, like others New Orleaners left behind after the hurricane, without food and water for days. They were under fire by gangs and running out of ammunition. They were under stress that you or I can only imagine -- and you object to them getting some time away from the devastation to find their families? To get some counselling? Even just to get away? There are thousands of national guard, police, and feds pouring in to New Orleans to help out now. Let the poor bastards who were in those conditions for over a week take a break.

August 28, 2005

The President The White House Washington, D. C.

Through: Regional Director FEMA Region VI 800 North Loop 288 Denton, Texas 76209

Dear Mr. President:

Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR § 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina.

In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan.

Pursuant to 44 CFR § 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal.

Preliminary estimates of the types and amount of emergency assistance needed under the Stafford Act, and emergency assistance from certain Federal agencies under other statutory authorities are tabulated in Enclosure A.

The following information is furnished on the nature and amount of State and local resources that have been or will be used to alleviate the conditions of this emergency: • Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening (3) Special Need Shelters (SNS) and establishing (3) on Standby. • Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening (3) Shelters and establishing (3) on Standby. • Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters. • Louisiana State Police (LSP): Providing support for the phased evacuation of the coastal areas. • Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Supporting the evacuation of the affected population and preparing for Search and Rescue Missions.

Mr. President Page Two August 28, 2005

• Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD): Coordinating traffic flow and management of the evacuations routes with local officials and the State of Mississippi.

The following information is furnished on efforts and resources of other Federal agencies, which have been or will be used in responding to this incident:

• FEMA ERT-A Team en-route.

I certify that for this emergency, the State and local governments will assume all applicable non-Federal share of costs required by the Stafford Act.

I request Direct Federal assistance for work and services to save lives and protect property.

(a) List any reasons State and local government cannot perform or contract for performance, (if applicable).

(b) Specify the type of assistance requested.

In accordance with 44 CFR § 206.208, the State of Louisiana agrees that it will, with respect to Direct Federal assistance:

Provide without cost to the United States all lands, easement, and rights-of-ways necessary to accomplish the approved work.

Hold and save the United States free from damages due to the requested work, and shall indemnify the Federal Government against any claims arising from such work;

Provide reimbursement to FEMA for the non-Federal share of the cost of such work in accordance with the provisions of the FEMA-State Agreement; and

Assist the performing Federal agency in all support and local jurisdictional matters.

In addition, I anticipate the need for debris removal, which poses an immediate threat to lives, public health, and safety.

Pursuant to Sections 502 and 407 of the Stafford Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5192 & 5173, the State agrees to indemnify and hold harmless the United States of America for any claims arising from the removal of debris or wreckage for this disaster. The State agrees that debris removal from public and private property will not occur until the landowner signs an unconditional authorization for the removal of debris.

I have designated Mr. Art Jones as the State Coordinating Officer for this request. He will work with the Federal Emergency Management Agency in damage assessments and may provide further information or justification on my behalf.

Sincerely,

Kathleen Babineaux Blanco Governor Enclosure

ENCLOSURE A TO EMERGENCY REQUEST

Estimated requirements for other Federal agency programs:

• Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening (3) Special Need Shelters (SNS) and establishing (3) on Standby. Costs estimated at $500,000 per week for each in operation.

• Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening (3) Shelters and establishing (3) on Standby. Costs estimated at $500,000 per week for each in operation.

• Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters. Costs estimated to range from $250,000-$500,000 to support (6) Shelter generator operations.

• Louisiana State Police (LSP): Costs to support evacuations - $300,000 for a non-direct landfall.

• Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Costs to support evacuations - $200,000 for a non-direct landfall.

• Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD): Costs to support evacuations - $2,000,000 for a non-direct landfall.

Totals: $ 9,000,000

Estimated Requirements for assistance under the Stafford Act:

Coordination: $0

Technical and advisory assistance: $0

Debris removal: $0

Emergency protective measures: $ 9,000,000

Individuals and Households Program (IHP): $0

Distribution of emergency supplies: $0

Other (specify): $0

Totals: $ 9,000,000

Grand Total: $ 9,000,000


Anybody see this? Is it still 100% a state and local problem???
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/La._Governors_August_27_request_for_assista_0906.html

Anybody see this? Is it still a state and local problem???
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/La._Governors_August_27_request_for_assista_0906.html
So who are these rawstory guys? Are they a real news bureau? Or are they more like the Onion?

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3004197

In short, last Sunday (the 4th) FEMA collected 1,000 firefighters in a hotel in Utah. Many of the firefighters believed they were to be deployed in operations in New Orleans.

Instead, FEMA wanted to use them as 'community relations officers' - essentially, their job would be to hand out flyers with the FEMA phone number on them so that people would know who to call with questions.

Talk about under utilization of resources! Why didn't they just recruit a bunch of teenage volunteers and let the firefighters do their job?

You want something to be angry about? Being angry about this, not the mayor sending some exhausted traumatized police officers and first responders out of the city for a well-deserved break.

N.O. should not have been left to rot for decades

Decades is the key word here. The levies have been unable to withstand a Cat3 hurricane for a long time now (according to FEMA) - for longer than Bush has been in office. With this in mind, the time for action (evacuation) was before the storm hit - clearly a local and state responsibility. Then the mayor of N.O. is screaming for someone to take action. It was his responsibility to evacuate his constituents. N.O. and the state of LA should have provided transportation out of the city for those who couldn't afford it. After the hurrucane hits the whole game changes - but the primary responsibility here is on the shoulders of local and state officials.

Canada City']Yeaaah.
So can someone please tell me against as to how George Bush is at fault, when the mayor decides to send the police force to Las Vegas with a Category 5 hurricane knocking on his doorstep?

This is what is wrong with the U.S everone is trying to politize/racialize a tragedy that should be met with compassion and unity in trying to rebuilt a city that was devestated by a hurricane. The U.S is becoming a nation of weak, bickering, terrotorial people. Instead of fighting we need to help rebuild and strive for a better future before it's too late.

So who are these rawstory guys? Are they a real news bureau? Or are they more like the Onion?

From their "About Us" section:


Our mission


The Raw Story is an alternative news nexus. We draw upon a panoply of news sources and select those stories we think most intriguing to a audience seeking news underplayed by the mainstream media.

At the core, our goal is to unearth and spotlight stories underplayed by the popular press, in particular those which highlight betterment and open people’s eyes to injustice throughout the world.

Raw Story Media operates the Raw Story family of sites.


About the site

The Raw Story, founded in February, 2004 has grown at a remarkable pace, and is referenced regularly by major bloggers and the press. Raw Story's reporting has been referenced by the New York Times, the Guardian, L.A. Weekly, the New York Post, the Toronto Star, The Hill, Roll Call, The Advocate and Hustler. Stories have often been linked from Daily Kos, Atrios, Buzzflash and Cursor. We now average 50,000 to 80,000 unique visitors daily, and run as high as 150,000 on strong-traffic days.

The site is updated continuously throughout the day and links to stories of national and international import; business and economic news; arts and entertainment reporting; and selected editorials. It also features exclusive stories and commentaries from reporters around the globe.

We also seek to promote budding journalists and provide alternative content of our own.

Submission guidelines

The Raw Story accepts solicited as well as unsolicited material; it can be sent at any time as a Word or RTF attachment to rawstories@gmail.com. At this time, compensation is not provided; if or when this changes in the future, we will remain unable to pay for previously published material.

Please be aware that all submissions become the property of The Raw Story, and we do require that writers allow a one-week exclusivity period before posting their work elsewhere. If posted online, you must add this tag: "Originally published by The Raw Story, http://www.rawstory.com."

Individual written agreements may be reached with the editors to offer leeway in these policies under extenuating circumstances.

Pieces should be no longer than 1,000 words, and adhere to AP style guidelines. To get a sense of this style, feel free to look through previous exclusives


It is admittedly liberal in its bent, originating from Massachusetts, but it is considered credible by major US newspapers. It isn't The Onion.

Decades is the key word here. The levies have been unable to withstand a Cat3 hurricane for a long time now (according to FEMA) - for longer than Bush has been in office. With this in mind, the time for action (evacuation) was before the storm hit - clearly a local and state responsibility. Then the mayor of N.O. is screaming for someone to take action. It was his responsibility to evacuate his constituents. N.O. and the state of LA should have provided transportation out of the city for those who couldn't afford it. After the hurrucane hits the whole game changes - but the primary responsibility here is on the shoulders of local and state officials.

Who did manage to evacuate 80% of New Orleans before the storm hit.

On the other hand, they bear full responsibility for not taking point to evacuate hospitals and senior's homes. That should have been a no-brainer.

I've got a lot of barrels for my blame shotgun, and everyone -- top->down or bottom->top if you prefer -- is getting hit by the rock salt. However, unlike the thread starter, I'm trying to keep the things I'm outraged about to things that make sense. In my book, FEMA wears the most mud, not Bush, and certainly not Nagel. On the other hand, I feel Nagel has done some good work, while as far as I can tell, Bush has done little other than photo ops and spin jobs. I have yet to see anything I can give him credit for handling well so far.

in a statement (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html) released on aug. 27th the whitehouse said ,

"The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.

The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures...
Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency."
(bolding mine)

it looks like bush personally declared that the feds were coordinating the disaster relief efforts several days before the levee broke. It also looks like this means that bush had the authority to do pretty much whatever he wanted - not like not having that authority has ever stopped him from suspending habeas corpus or creating an international system of torture camps or anything.

So you're saying that as soon as Bush declared it a disaster area, the locals are completely absolved from preparing for or mounting a response to this natural disaster. I can hear the council meeting now:

N.O Mayor: "Well, folks...Bush just declared this a disaster area. All we need to do is sit back and let the Feds take care of things now."

Are you serious???

http://www.guardian.co.uk/katrina/story/0,16441,1564248,00.html

Why would Bush refuse help from another nation? Doesn't make much sense?

Looks like he wants to snub one of the only other sources of oil.

Bushite Wish: Minimum possible blame on Bush and his Cronies

That is how it is going to be. Apparently the polls agree with this assessment since more people said that State and Local governments is more at fault than Bush.

I guess you don't like those numbers at all and try to place the blame squarely on Bush when infact you can't!

Actually, most of these reports about the superdome are unsubstantiated. The one about the two 7 year-old girls being raped and having their throats slit is completely false unless the bodies managed to dissappear on their own. State still has control over most of the forces in the area, the only ones under federal control are FEMA employees and the active Nat. Guard troops. OTOH Blanco has about 30,000 Nat. Guard troops under her personal command that she won't release to federal control. There is no single organization that currently has command over the entire area which is seriously hampering efforts.

Which can be bypassed if Bush calls them to active duty thus placing them under Federal Control and not State Control. Maybe that should happen. Would take the governor out of the equation in regards to military matters and there is no legal recourse for her to take since that is the President's decision to make.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/katrina/story/0,16441,1564248,00.html

Why would Bush refuse help from another nation? Doesn't make much sense?

Looks like he wants to snub one of the only other sources of oil.

Leave it Jesse Jackson to try to make political hay out of this! Of course, everyone is trying too!

Anyway..... This is focusing on what Jesse Jackson is saying so do you have an actual story without the commentary?

That is how it is going to be. Apparently the polls agree with this assessment since more people said that State and Local governments is more at fault than Bush.

I guess you don't like those numbers at all and try to place the blame squarely on Bush when infact you can't!

You are a little unclear. Just because America believes him blameless doesn't make it so. (Note: it works the other way, too. Just because the US believed him culpable wouldn't make it so either.)

The perception is that Bush is minimally at fault. That may or may not be the reality.

The blame that can fall on Bush is his FEMA appointment. That was a stupid move and I don't think anyone can say otherwise, and I haven't seen anyone say otherwise so if I missed it, please tell me how Bush's FEMA appointment was a good idea.

A lot of people dropped the ball on this - all we can do now is try to get rid of some of the stupid red tape, streamline our emergency responses, strengthen our infrastructure against natural disasters and finally give those that fucked up a spanking.

but it is considered credible by major US newspapers.
Or so they say. I've never seen them credited in the Wall Street Journal, but what the heck, anyone can make up news, nowadays. I think it's interesting that no mainstream, well-known outlet has published this letter. Certainly doesn't show up on AP or WSJ.

On the other hand, my earlier post with the excerpt from the LA state disaster plan makes it pretty clear those folks hadn't a clue from the beginning.

[edit]
even more entertaining is to google "Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief". It finds two requests by governors to help with snowstorms. At least there is a shred of truth to the stuff on newsmax and drudge.

You are a little unclear. Just because America believes him blameless doesn't make it so. (Note: it works the other way, too. Just because the US believed him culpable wouldn't make it so either.)

The perception is that Bush is minimally at fault. That may or may not be the reality.

Unfortunately, it is reality. FEMA in my opinion is really at fault here for moving to slow. State and Local officials are at fault for not evacuating the city sooner. Bush had to force the evac of NO one day before the storm hit.

We are just going to see what the investigation turns up.

Nice job being a Complete lier [NS]Canada City.

I blame Homeland Security for Existing, it was a stupid idea made by stupid people.

The blame that can fall on Bush is his FEMA appointment. That was a stupid move and I don't think anyone can say otherwise, and I haven't seen anyone say otherwise so if I missed it, please tell me how Bush's FEMA appointment was a good idea.

A lot of people dropped the ball on this - all we can do now is try to get rid of some of the stupid red tape, streamline our emergency responses, strengthen our infrastructure against natural disasters and finally give those that fucked up a spanking.

You know? I never really agreed with Sumamba Buwhan on anything. However here, I agree with everything he has said here.

Leave it Jesse Jackson to try to make political hay out of this! Of course, everyone is trying too!

Anyway..... This is focusing on what Jesse Jackson is saying so do you have an actual story without the commentary?

The article has nothing to do with jessie it was saying that Bush refuse aid from Venuezula which in my opinion is dumb.

My Comment was above which I find it disgraceful that we americans politize everthing instead of trying to fix the problem and that people would blame the citizens of N.O/G.C for what happened to them.

Or so they say. I've never seen them credited in the Wall Street Journal, but what the heck, anyone can make up news, nowadays. I think it's interesting that no mainstream, well-known outlet has published this letter. Certainly doesn't show up on AP or WSJ.

On the other hand, my earlier post with the excerpt from the LA state disaster plan makes it pretty clear those folks hadn't a clue from the beginning.


Well, you COULD always just source it from the Governor's office...not their fault if the press doesn't distribute it.

http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976

The article has nothing to do with jessie it was saying that Bush refuse aid from Venuezula which in my opinion is dumb.

My Comment was above which I find it disgraceful that we americans politize everthing instead of trying to fix the problem and that people would blame the citizens of N.O/G.C for what happened to them.

So do you have an actual story minus the commentary?

Well, you COULD always just source it from the Governor's office...not their fault if the press doesn't distribute it.

http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976
This is pretty good. The document there is dated 8/27. Wasn't that a couple days before the hurricane hit LA? Seems to me the hurricane went ashore on 8/29.

Then the version posted earlier was dated 8/28. Are these real letters or are they just drafts?

Don't get me wrong. FEMA should have come through a lot faster than they did. But, I don't believe for a moment anyone in LA had the smarts to handle a disaster any magnitude. Otherwise they would have actually accomplished something in the days preceeding the landfall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_effects_of_Hurricane_Katrina

Both federal and state and local are to blame. Read under Evacuation and Disater relief responce. Article on political ramifications.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_effects_of_Hurricane_Katrina

The economic affect will be catstophic with close to 500,000 people unemoloyed and the tourist instustry in N.O destroyed.

These are facts.

So you're saying that as soon as Bush declared it a disaster area, the locals are completely absolved from preparing for or mounting a response to this natural disaster.

no. try reading it again. perhaps in context this time.

This is pretty good. The document there is dated 8/27. Wasn't that a couple days before the hurricane hit LA? Seems to me the hurricane went ashore on 8/29.

Then the version posted earlier was dated 8/28. Are these real letters or are they just drafts?

Don't get me wrong. FEMA should have come through a lot faster than they did. But, I don't believe for a moment anyone in LA had the smarts to handle a disaster any magnitude. Otherwise they would have actually accomplished something in the days preceeding the landfall.


And the winner of the 2005 National Straw Grasping Competition is....


Gimme a break. First you couldn't find it so you tried to discount it, then when I source it from its point of origin you throw THAT sort of spurious attempts to discount it? Because it was posted publicly the day AFTER it was sent to the Whitehouse?

Here's a thought - the dates of this request for designation of Louisian as a disaster zone corresponds with Bush's acquiescence and designation of the same thing.

If it WERE'T the full and complete copy of the letter as delivered, the Feds would have bitched about it by now.

And the winner of the 2005 National Straw Grasping Competition is....


Gimme a break. First you couldn't find it so you tried to discount it, then when I source it from its point of origin you throw THAT sort of spurious attempts to discount it? Because it was posted publicly the day AFTER it was sent to the Whitehouse?

Here's a thought - the dates of this request for designation of Louisian as a disaster zone corresponds with Bush's acquiescence and designation of the same thing.

If it WERE'T the full and complete copy of the letter as delivered, the Feds would have bitched about it by now.

But guess what? FEMA and the Guard had to wait on the Governor of LA to give her permission. Also, she refused to let the American Red Cross into the Convention Center and the Superdome with food and water and medicine! :eek:

The Guard remained under her control despite the emergency declaration. The Governor of LA has balked with the Red Cross.

FEMA was slow to move in and I do blame the head of FEMA for the slow mobilization and I blame Congress for putting that organization in with Homeland Security.

But guess what? FEMA and the Guard had to wait on the Governor of LA to give her permission. Also, she refused to let the American Red Cross into the Convention Center and the Superdome with food and water and medicine! :eek:

The Guard remained under her control despite the emergency declaration. The Governor of LA has balked with the Red Cross.

FEMA was slow to move in and I do blame the head of FEMA for the slow mobilization and I blame Congress for putting that organization in with Homeland Security.

So, you blame Congress as a whole for implementing the President's wishes when he requested the creation of the DHS? (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/06/20020606-8.html)

Tonight, I propose a permanent Cabinet-level Department of Homeland Security to unite essential agencies that must work more closely together: Among them, the Coast Guard, the Border Patrol, the Customs Service, Immigration officials, the Transportation Security Administration, and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Employees of this new agency will come to work every morning knowing their most important job is to protect their fellow citizens. The Department of Homeland Security will be charged with --

The Department of Homeland Security will be charged with four primary tasks. This new agency will control our borders and prevent terrorists and explosives from entering our country. It will work with state and local authorities to respond quickly and effectively to emergencies. It will bring together our best scientists to develop technologies that detect biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and to discover the drugs and treatments to best protect our citizens. And this new department will review intelligence and law enforcement information from all agencies of government, and produce a single daily picture of threats against our homeland.



So are you saying that the Congress should have told Bush that he was stupid and that making Disaster Recovery a part of this organization was a stupid thing to do?

Or that they should have duplicated FEMA within the DHS with a new organization to add to beurocracy of having duplicate organizations?


Or do you at least have the honesty to blame only the Republicans for this fiasco given that the vote was almost entirely along party lines with the Democrats voting against the creation of the DHS?


I mean, I've seen you throw the Liberal label around and blaming Democrats for things, but for some reason in this case you choose the party-neutral target of "The Congress". This is out off character enough to make one realize that what you don't have the balls to do is put aside your partisanship and say what you SHOULD - if you want to be honest about it - and that you blame the REPUBLICAN MAJORITY IN CONGRESS.


A Republican majority who put FEMA in the DHS becuase it was what the White House wanted them to do.

Nagin didn't name a failed horse breeder to the Federal Emergency Department.

*snip*

They didn't have to do it you know. Congress could've rejected the whole notion of putting FEMA inside the DHS! They didn't do it and it went in overwhelmingly.

Don't just blame Bush for this. You can blame him for his choice to head it. I won't argue that it was a bad choice because it really was but don't solely blame Bush for it being incorporated inside the DHS. The Congress still had to approve it and they did. They also should receive part of the blame.

My biggest problem with this is couldn't they wait on this until say 9/15 and more support was in place ?



1. Nagin's decision to send New Orleans police officers on a well deserved break occured AFTER those officers have spent over a week trying to look after the city under horrifying conditions. Not before. Twisting your facts a little, aren't you? (source your New York Times link)

2. Has it not occured to you that these officers are also victims of the hurricane? The remaining officers who have not deserted or commited suicide were, like others New Orleaners left behind after the hurricane, without food and water for days. They were under fire by gangs and running out of ammunition. They were under stress that you or I can only imagine -- and you object to them getting some time away from the devastation to find their families? To get some counselling? Even just to get away? There are thousands of national guard, police, and feds pouring in to New Orleans to help out now. Let the poor bastards who were in those conditions for over a week take a break.

They didn't have to do it you know. Congress could've rejected the whole notion of putting FEMA inside the DHS! They didn't do it and it went in overwhelmingly.

Don't just blame Bush for this. You can blame him for his choice to head it. I won't argue that it was a bad choice because it really was but don't solely blame Bush for it being incorporated inside the DHS. The Congress still had to approve it and they did. They also should receive part of the blame.




OK, so it is still -according to you - "The (bipartisan) Congress"'s fault for a Republican Majority vote overruling the Democrats in order to implelement the plan put forward and lobbied hard for by the Republican President.

Because it's not like the President's team doesn't know how to crack the whip to get what it wants.



Odd as hell how you refuse to name parties when it goes against your partisanship..... and totally exonerate the originator of the idea.


So does this mean that we will never ever hear you complain about who puts forward a bill (or passes it) that you disagree with and will simply state "oh well, CONGRESS DID that?"



I'm guessing not...

OK, so it is still -according to you - "The (bipartisan) Congress"'s fault for a Republican Majority vote overruling the Democrats in order to implelement the plan put forward and lobbied hard for by the Republican President.

I suggest you actually read what you wrote. Congress itself voted FEMA into said department. From my understanding, there was little opposition to it so how can the republicans override those of the minority party if they all basically agreed to put it into the department? I'm hoping now that they take it out.

Odd as hell how you refuse to name parties when it goes against your partisanship..... and totally exonerate the originator of the idea.

Funny how you always try to blame one person for something that wasn't totally his fault. Governor Blanco is more responsible for this debacle because of her constent interference in disaster relief.

So does this mean that we will never ever hear you complain about who puts forward a bill (or passes it) that you disagree with and will simply state "oh well, CONGRESS DID that?"

Congress passes bills that I don't like and I register my complaints with them. If things don't change then I cast my vote for someone else. I actually keep up with what my congressman and senators are doing. If I don't like it, I write to them. Really doesn't do much good but I do my best to register my displeasure.

I'm guessing not...

You guessed wrong.

Gotcha.

Question for you though.


Why the fuck even have a President if he has no reponsibility or power? I mean, except for Democratic PResidents who, of course,. are actually responsible for the operations of the Government underneath them.

I mean, here we have a President who:

1) Creates the Office of Homeland Security and Counceil of Homeland Security by executive order on October 8th, starting to get the framework in place for the DHS(http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011008-2.html)

2) Makes the public call for the Creation of the DHS, and then gets Dick Army to submit the bill for it's creation AS WRITTEN BY THE WHITEHOUSE to the Congfress.

3) After some debate and under political pressure from the White House to get this done as a REQUIRED element of retooling the Government for the War On Terror, the Bill passes through the House and Senate in quick order and voted for or against pretty much along party lines.

4) The President then continues to tinker with his new toy....errrr, sorry - "Department" by replacing qualified experts with friends and political hacks.




But, according to you, the President has nothing to do with it.....



You might want to get your political glasses checked, because your current prescription seems to be impeding a clear vision of a pretty damn obvious chain of events.

One thing. The executive order didn't form the cabinet level position of the Department of Homeland Security.

Only Congress can create that and they did.

Also, the President has very broad powers but the states are still responsible for their own affairs.

In this case, LA really dropped the ball and thus FEMA was left in the lurch and thus they were slow moving. Of course it didn't help matters much that the Head of FEMA waited the amount of time that he did to ask to move people into place.

However, Bush isn't the person that is soley responsible for the debacle that is NO.

State and local govts dropped the ball early on and that wasn't good.

One thing. The executive order didn't form the cabinet level position of the Department of Homeland Security.

Only Congress can create that and they did.

Also, the President has very broad powers but the states are still responsible for their own affairs.

In this case, LA really dropped the ball and thus FEMA was left in the lurch and thus they were slow moving. Of course it didn't help matters much that the Head of FEMA waited the amount of time that he did to ask to move people into place.

However, Bush isn't the person that is soley responsible for the debacle that is NO.

State and local govts dropped the ball early on and that wasn't good.


Now you're sidestepping.

FAct is that FEMA is in the DHS for one reaon and one reason only - because that is what the President wanted.

Saying anything otherwise as you seem intent on doing while also refusing even to point your finger at the single PARTY that put this situation into being is, in the face of all available evidence - completely laughable.



In other words dude: stop it. just stop it.


Your making yourself look foolish.

Actually, it was Katrina that caused the mess in New Orleans. :rolleyes:

An indisputable truth that some seem to overlook.

Now you're sidestepping.

Actually no I'm not side stepping. I'm setting the record straight because you apparently don't know precisely what is going on.

FAct is that FEMA is in the DHS for one reaon and one reason only - because that is what the President wanted.

Which the Congress approved. The Congress could've rejected putting FEMA in there. It is within there rights to do so, but they didn't. Is there something about the legislative process you are not understanding?

Saying anything otherwise as you seem intent on doing while also refusing even to point your finger at the single PARTY that put this situation into being is, in the face of all available evidence - completely laughable.

That's because THERE ISN"T A SINGLE PARTY THAT IS RESPONSIBLE! Is that clear enough to get through your thick mind? I've already stated that Bush was somewhat responsible but he isn't soley to blame for this.

In other words dude: stop it. just stop it.

Take your own advice and stop trying to spew inaccurate information.

Your making yourself look foolish.

You've done that to yourself and I haven't. Good day.

lol. Nice try, but no. And the fact that you have to sink to personal comments like "thick head" does nothing to stregthen your position.



However it is good to know who to put under the heading "spewer of completely partisan defenses" for purposes of further debate.


BTW, as long as you just blamed Congress for putting FEMA into the DHS, why not the Senate too? I mean, didn't they play their part?

People like Barbra Boxer who commented in the debate:

The bottom line of it is, we, unfortunately, have a terrible share of
these disasters. Putting the Federal Emergency Management
Administration, lock, stock and barrel, into this new Department I just
think is going to be a real problem for us. Why not just take those
folks in the Department who would work on homeland security but leave
the others in place?

It took many years to straighten out the problems of FEMA. I have
gone through the worst of it. Under President Clinton and under James
Lee Witt, we saw a tremendous uplifting of FEMA's morale. They know
what they are doing now. All of us, Democrats and Republicans, have
benefited from that. Our people have benefited from that. Now we are
moving this, lock, stock and barrel, and I am very worried about
accountability.




Oh yeah, and you might want to check Thomas before spouting baseless assertions on the agreement on the idea of moving FEMA into the DHS.

You might just get slapped upside the head with the notation on:

H.AMDT.574 (A001)
Amends: H.R.5005
Sponsor: Rep Oberstar, James L. [MN-8] (offered 7/25/2002)
AMENDMENT DESCRIPTION:
Amendment sought to retain FEMA as an independent agency with responsibility for natural disaster preparedness, response, and recovery.

AMENDMENT PURPOSE:
An amendment numbered 1 printed in House Report 107-615 to retain FEMA as an independent agency with responsibility for natural disaster preparedness, response, and recovery.

STATUS:

7/25/2002 10:21pm:
Amendment (A001) offered by Mr. Oberstar. (consideration: CR H5684-5686; text: CR H5684)
7/26/2002 10:04am:
On agreeing to the Oberstar amendment (A001) Failed by recorded vote: 165 - 261 (Roll no. 353). (consideration: CR H5798-5799; text: CR H5798)


Let's check the roll call for that vote shall we?

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2002/roll353.xml



Oh. So about 75% of Democrats were against moving FEMA into the DHS. Compare that to 5% of Republicans.





But hey, according to you NOBODY was against the move.....


Try getting an education before speaking next time Corneliu

Canada City']You see, unlike Liberals, I don't make up shit. I actually use sources.

I'm a liberal and I don't make up shit either, according to their own laws, it was the federal governments responsibility... and here is my SOURCE (http://www.whitehouse.gov/deptofhomeland/analysis/title5.html)


"Section 501. Under Secretary for Emergency Preparedness and Response.

This section specifies primary responsibilities of the Under Secretary for Emergency Preparedness and Response. These include: (1) helping to ensure the preparedness of emergency response providers for terrorist attacks, major disasters, and other emergencies, (2) establishing standards, conducting exercises and training, evaluating performance, and providing funds in relation to the Nuclear Incident Response Team (defined in section 504 of the bill), (3) providing the federal government's response to terrorist attacks and major disasters, (4) aiding the recovery from terrorist attacks and major disasters, (5) working with other federal and non-federal agencies to build a comprehensive national incident management system, (6) consolidating existing federal government emergency response plans into a single, coordinated national response plan, and (7) developing comprehensive programs for developing interoperative communications technology and ensuring that emergency response providers acquire such technology. responsibility of providing the federal government's response to terrorist attacks and major disasters - item (3) above - includes a number of specific functions: (A) coordinating the overall response, (B) directing the Domestic Emergency Support Team, the Strategic National Stockpile, the National Disaster Medical System, and the Nuclear Incident Response Team, (C) overseeing the Metropolitan Medical Response System, and (D) coordinating other federal response resources.

lol. Nice try, but no. And the fact that you have to sink to personal comments like "thick head" does nothing to stregthen your position.



However it is good to know who to put under the heading "spewer of completely partisan defenses" for purposes of further debate.

Fine! Ignore all the evidence and blame just one person. I'm sorry but unlike the majority of europe, we actually know that the local governments dropped the ball on this one as well as FEMA. Yes Bush is partly responsible as is Congress but in the overall scheme of things, it falls onto Nagin (who is now trying to make up for it) and Governor Blanco (who isn't)

I'm a liberal and I don't make up shit either, according to their own laws, it was the federal governments responsibility... and here is my SOURCE (http://www.whitehouse.gov/deptofhomeland/analysis/title5.html)

Yep, accurate Stephistan! For once, I'll back you up on this one. That is why I'm blaming FEMA more than I am Bush!

Before you start in on that, Bush can only do so much but it is FEMAs responsibility to do all that they can in an emergency. They didn't.

Fine! Ignore all the evidence and blame just one person. I'm sorry but unlike the majority of europe, we actually know that the local governments dropped the ball on this one as well as FEMA. Yes Bush is partly responsible as is Congress but in the overall scheme of things, it falls onto Nagin (who is now trying to make up for it) and Governor Blanco (who isn't)


Agin, you are going off onto a tangent. I edited my above post to also show you the ammendment that tried to keep FEMA out of the DHS which was voted down by the Republicans.


And I'm not saying that no-one else is to blame Corneliu.

I'm just hammering YOUR ass for the spuriously false notion you put forward that FEMA being in the DHS is all the fault of a bipartisan act of Congress with no fault attached to the White House.

Agin, you are going off onto a tangent. I edited my above post to also show you the ammendment that tried to keep FEMA out of the DHS which was voted down by the Republicans.


And I'm not saying that no-one else is to blame Corneliu.

I'm just hammering YOUR ass for the spuriously false notion you put forward that FEMA being in the DHS is all the fault of a bipartisan act of Congress with no fault attached to the White House.

I never said that they are soley responsible for that now did I? I just pointed out to you that Congress voted it into it. They could've easily rejected it. Yes Bush wanted it in there. I already knew that however Congress didn't have to vote it into the DHS!

Trent Lott: We voted it in there!

That is from Trent Lott! Goes to show that you still need Congressional Approval for such a thing.

Have a nice day.

Yep, accurate Stephistan! For once, I'll back you up on this one. That is why I'm blaming FEMA more than I am Bush!

Before you start in on that, Bush can only do so much but it is FEMAs responsibility to do all that they can in an emergency. They didn't.

Yeah, but Corneliu, Bush put a horse-breeder in charge of FEMA... He put a man with zero experience in charge of Homeland Security too. Does Bush not bear any responsibility for the choices he's made? If you put incompetent people in these jobs, you have to expect incompetent work and or results. So, to me Bush has to shoulder some of this. He appointed these people, the buck stops with the president, they are his appointments.

Yeah, but Corneliu, Bush put a horse-breeder in charge of FEMA... He put a man with zero experience in charge of Homeland Security too. Does Bush not bear any responsibility for the choices he's made? If you put incompetent people in these jobs, you have to expect incompetent work and or results. So, to me Bush has to shoulder some of this. He appointed these people, the buck stops with the president, they are his appointments.

I agree it was a bad choice. Your not going to get any arguement out of me on that score. I have also said that he also is at fault in all of this and I have never said anything differently.

Yeah, but Corneliu, Bush put a horse-breeder in charge of FEMA... He put a man with zero experience in charge of Homeland Security too. Does Bush not bear any responsibility for the choices he's made? If you put incompetent people in these jobs, you have to expect incompetent work and or results. So, to me Bush has to shoulder some of this. He appointed these people, the buck stops with the president, they are his appointments.

Has he had no experiance since then ? Wasn't he in change of FEMA for the past 4 years over seeing 164 seperatly presidentialy declared disasters including the hurricane season just last year in florida? Granted he hasn't had experiance on this level... but then who really has. This is not to say the appointment was wrong... but that he wasn't so inexperianced as most suggest.

People can blame bush... but bush is no more to blame then the govenor or any other state offical... and Certinaly no more to blame then the Mayor of NO [BOTH REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCATS CAN TAKE THE FALL ON THIS ONE NOT JUST BUSH AND HIS SUPPORTERS]. Where were the supplies at the shelters ? he told people to bring their own food and water for up to 3 days yet had no administration to look over the facility ? Where was the planning.. And as most people stated, a majority of those traped in their homes are poor, black, and old. If they wanted to leave why wasn't transportation provided. Yes FEMA was slow by 2 or 3 days...
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/katrina/interactive/timeline.katrina/frameset.exclude.html
August 28th Storm hits New Orleans :: August 30th ships and heliocopters moved to region at request of FEMA

But that delay was only made catasorphic by the sheer lack of prepartion made by the city and state.

And let us not forget New Orleans has been neglected for the past 20 years through republican and democratic presidents and congresses alike. Dont dare try to push this on one party when all are to blame.

:headbang: It's hard to believe you guys keep throwing out the same arguements with no changes. I know talk radio and the administration spin was out early Saturday and they are going to keep repeating it until it sticks. Their supporters had it memorized by Saturday night. The sad part is the spin makes the president seem more of a wimp than he really was. He sounded a lot better when he admitted mistakes than now when his supportes "spin the buck". As I have said on this several times. I am trained by the local county emergency management. In every session, without fail, we are told that local government only needs to hold out for a MAXIMUM of THREE DAYS. Before three days are up, the Feds will have complete control of every aspect of an emergency. That means they have to arrive almost immediatly and then have two more days to assess the situation and set up whatever is needed. The major problems of NO including the looting didn't happen right away. Yes the city and state could have done better. But, The Feds broke their promise. Everything that happened after three days belongs to the Feds. Who in the Feds you want to blame is up to you. But the blame for ONLY the first THREE DAYS belongs to the city and state. Please God give us back another Truman!

:headbang: It's hard to believe you guys keep throwing out the same arguements with no changes. I know talk radio and the administration spin was out early Saturday and they are going to keep repeating it until it sticks. Their supporters had it memorized by Saturday night. The sad part is the spin makes the president seem more of a wimp than he really was. He sounded a lot better when he admitted mistakes than now when his supportes "spin the buck". As I have said on this several times. I am trained by the local county emergency management. In every session, without fail, we are told that local government only needs to hold out for a MAXIMUM of THREE DAYS. Before three days are up, the Feds will have complete control of every aspect of an emergency. That means they have to arrive almost immediatly and then have two more days to assess the situation and set up whatever is needed. The major problems of NO including the looting didn't happen right away. Yes the city and state could have done better. But, The Feds broke their promise. Everything that happened after three days belongs to the Feds. Who in the Feds you want to blame is up to you. But the blame for ONLY the first THREE DAYS belongs to the city and state. Please God give us back another Truman!

People are content to see things one way and one way only. For those against bush he is an easy target for their hatrid (and at times ignorance). Those supporters of bush when hearing this will defend him to their deaths (to their subborness). How sad politics can be eh ?

I never said that they are soley responsible for that now did I? I just pointed out to you that Congress voted it into it. They could've easily rejected it. Yes Bush wanted it in there. I already knew that however Congress didn't have to vote it into the DHS!

Trent Lott: We voted it in there!

That is from Trent Lott! Goes to show that you still need Congressional Approval for such a thing.

Have a nice day.
Corneliu, you and Silliopolous are not debating the same thing.

You state that congress is responsible. All of it.
Sillipolous says the republicans are responsible because congress voted along party lines. He never disagreed with you that congress voted the thing in the first place, he's saying that NOT ALL congress is to blame, only republicans. He has passed blaming only Bush. You don't seem to comprehend his argument.

Now, please refute his argument that the republicans allowed this mess to happen. Stop saying all of congress did this. It seems pretty clearly that the democrat minority was outvoted all along.

Which sucks in a democracy, but such is the way things goes.

Corneliu, you and Silliopolous are not debating the same thing.

You state that congress is responsible. All of it.
Sillipolous says the republicans are responsible because congress voted along party lines. He never disagreed with you that congress voted the thing in the first place, he's saying that NOT ALL congress is to blame, only republicans. He has passed blaming only Bush. You don't seem to comprehend his argument.

Now, please refute his argument that the republicans allowed this mess to happen. Stop saying all of congress did this. It seems pretty clearly that the democrat minority was outvoted all along.

Which sucks in a democracy, but such is the way things goes.

That is an easy argument.. New Orleans has been neglected for decades... through over development, massive erosion (and ignoring of those issues), the cost of the levey upgrade, to the maintence of it... through both bush's and clinton (and at the time Democrats held congress) New Orelans has been ignored. It didn't happen just in the past 4 years.

As well the State leadership who is held by democrats, and city leadership who are both democrats and black ---> Who failed to provide leadership.

Many of the problems of looting, suicide, violence etc.. which hampered relief efforst were caused by a loss of hope, which festered through a viod in the leadership role. It took a military General (funny enough) to give hope to the people

:headbang: It's hard to believe you guys keep throwing out the same arguements with no changes. I know talk radio and the administration spin was out early Saturday and they are going to keep repeating it until it sticks. Their supporters had it memorized by Saturday night. The sad part is the spin makes the president seem more of a wimp than he really was. He sounded a lot better when he admitted mistakes than now when his supportes "spin the buck". As I have said on this several times. I am trained by the local county emergency management. In every session, without fail, we are told that local government only needs to hold out for a MAXIMUM of THREE DAYS. Before three days are up, the Feds will have complete control of every aspect of an emergency. That means they have to arrive almost immediatly and then have two more days to assess the situation and set up whatever is needed. The major problems of NO including the looting didn't happen right away. Yes the city and state could have done better. But, The Feds broke their promise. Everything that happened after three days belongs to the Feds. Who in the Feds you want to blame is up to you. But the blame for ONLY the first THREE DAYS belongs to the city and state. Please God give us back another Truman!

Holding out for three days seems reasonable, though it's not a surprise to me that it would take longer under the circumstances in the south. Roads blocked for hundreds of miles, few open airports.

I'll be happy if after this cluster they can figure out how to actually get there in three days. That's a reasonable target, and I don't think we can expect any faster than that under the best of circumstances.

Now we need to get the cities and states to actually understand that they have responsibility to their citizens. They, not the feds, need to learn that they need to have food and water in the shelters. Transport the elderly and infirm to shelters. Common sense stuff like that.

Many more lives will be saved in the future if communities prepare for emergencies. Sure the federal response is important - but they aren't the first responders, and not every hurricane is a CAT-5. Most emergencies can be handled by the locals if they are properly prepared, and they can easily hold out for three days or more if properly prepared.

I live in a remote area - our last disaster was cleaned up in a week by ourselves. Every man in town went to work clearing 30 miles of roads for rescue, families cared for the elderly and helpless, all with self-organization. We all had enough food and water. The county emergency coordinator showed up at the end of the week, turned around in the town center and went back never to be heard from again. We expect no help, that's zero help, from anyone for a week or two. If you know that nobody cares very much, and that the county/state organizations are unwieldy, you learn to be self-sufficient.

I'm bush like. Now is not the time to play the blame, which is a uh um... game of blaming things...on me. Brownie is doing a good job hes finding out stuff just four days after the news does, and uh um ... theres going to be an investigation so I can find out who the "laberals" believe made a mistake and then I'll promote them he he he. So in the mean time uh ... um... the end.

Man, this is pretty sad. Blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame blame. Can't we just try to figure out WHAT went wrong and fix it instead of trying to figure out WHO did wrong and punish them?

I'm just gonna sidestep all party politics and say that alot of people screwed up on many levels. You can't just pick one person or group ie FEMA, the mayor, the governor, or Bush, and say BAAM! "They were responsible for this disaster!"

I think this is a sad sign of things to come. Soon, Bush will be blamed for early snowfall and the liberals will be blamed for traffic on the Capital beltway.
There is no hope for us.

I'm bush like. Now is not the time to play the blame, which is a uh um... game of blaming things...on me. Brownie is doing a good job hes finding out stuff just four days after the news does, and uh um ... theres going to be an investigation so I can find out who the "laberals" believe made a mistake and then I'll promote them he he he. So in the mean time uh ... um... the end.

I wonder what your Nancy Pelosi Impersonation is like... lots of screaming republicans are evil to blame foreverything america is falling the world is ending....

oh and uhhh the ever popular ignorance to history ^_^

gotta love partisanship

That is an easy argument.. New Orleans has been neglected for decades... through over development, massive erosion (and ignoring of those issues), the cost of the levey upgrade, to the maintence of it... through both bush's and clinton (and at the time Democrats held congress) New Orelans has been ignored. It didn't happen just in the past 4 years.

As well the State leadership who is held by democrats, and city leadership who are both democrats and black ---> Who failed to provide leadership.

Many of the problems of looting, suicide, violence etc.. which hampered relief efforst were caused by a loss of hope, which festered through a viod in the leadership role. It took a military General (funny enough) to give hope to the people
Actually the funding for the upgrade in NO stopped in 2003, under Bush. Clinton allowed more money for the upgrade in his last five years as president than NO recieved in the 15 years before that. So, saying that Clinton is to blame seems like grasping at straws.

But that is completely besides the point.

The argument was made by Corneliu that Congress was to blame for allowing FEMA to get incorporated in Homeland Defense. It was countered that not all congress allowed that, but Republicans were the one responsible. Corneliu then went on tangents like "sure, Blame Bush", "Congress made it happens, thwe whole congress" even when it was refuted that congress voted along party lines and the fault is therefore lies with the republicans.

It wasn't the whole mess we were talking about. That particular part of the debate was solely on FEMA and congress's role in it's lack of response. With that in mind, care to show me why we shouldn't blame the republicans on that one but should, instead, criticize the whole of congress?

Actually the funding for the upgrade in NO stopped in 2003, under Bush. Clinton allowed more money for the upgrade in his last five years as president than NO recieved in the 15 years before that. So, saying that Clinton is to blame seems like grasping at straws.

But that is completely besides the point.

The argument was made by Corneliu that Congress was to blame for allowing FEMA to get incorporated in Homeland Defense. It was countered that not all congress allowed that, but Republicans were the one responsible. Corneliu then went on tangents like "sure, Blame Bush", "Congress made it happens, thwe whole congress" even when it was refuted that congress voted along party lines and the fault is therefore lies with the republicans.

It wasn't the whole mess we were talking about. That particular part of the debate was solely on FEMA and congress's role in it's lack of response. With that in mind, care to show me why we shouldn't blame the republicans on that one but should, instead, criticize the whole of congress?

Actually i challenge this as false ... funding didn't STOP with Bush it was cut back and for years including Clintons administration the democratically controled congress voted against and turned now numerious and significant calls for more funding . So this is not quite grasping at straws is it.. In fact the lovely Nancy Pelosi failed to even recognize that reality on CNN not just 20 minutes ago. ALL are to blame..

I would blame the politicans who voted for it.. not the parties.. there were republicans who voted against it.. and democrats who voted for it.. and seeing how had 53 democrats not voted against the measure it would have passed.... but then why look at the facts when we can generalize so easily right ?

Man, this is pretty sad. Blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame blame. Can't we just try to figure out WHAT went wrong and fix it instead of trying to figure out WHO did wrong and punish them?

I'm just gonna sidestep all party politics and say that alot of people screwed up on many levels. You can't just pick one person or group ie FEMA, the mayor, the governor, or Bush, and say BAAM! "They were responsible for this disaster!"

I think this is a sad sign of things to come. Soon, Bush will be blamed for early snowfall and the liberals will be blamed for traffic on the Capital beltway.
There is no hope for us.

This conversation needs to turn into something more productive. The Bush haters who are using this event for political purposes contribute particularly little, and unless an individual has a compelling point I'm no longer reading their posts. There's plenty that went wrong, and there will be lots of time to learn who failed their responsibilities. Let's talk about what we expect and how to make that happen.

I think a preliminary question is to evaluate our expectations of how fast the federal agencies should guarantee response. There are some fundamental logistical limitations that people don't seem to grasp, so we'll eliminate disappointment if we define what is possible - and showing up a day after the storm is clearly not likely.

I see much room for improvement at the local level - this is where people live and die. I see a pressing need for communities to develop their own realistic emergency plans; they need to rehearse them and supply shelters and sustenance for their citizens. They need to develop an incident command structure and rehearse it several times a year. The top-down, mayor is in charge, structure is just plain primitive and ineffective.

We are certainly going to have an after-action review of federal and state agency performance. We'll learn a lot from it, But I think we'll make far greater progress toward saving future lives by arming communities with skills and supplies than we will by blaming presidents.

Actually the funding for the upgrade in NO stopped in 2003, under Bush. Clinton allowed more money for the upgrade in his last five years as president than NO recieved in the 15 years before that. So, saying that Clinton is to blame seems like grasping at straws.

But that is completely besides the point.

The argument was made by Corneliu that Congress was to blame for allowing FEMA to get incorporated in Homeland Defense. It was countered that not all congress allowed that, but Republicans were the one responsible. Corneliu then went on tangents like "sure, Blame Bush", "Congress made it happens, thwe whole congress" even when it was refuted that congress voted along party lines and the fault is therefore lies with the republicans.

It wasn't the whole mess we were talking about. That particular part of the debate was solely on FEMA and congress's role in it's lack of response. With that in mind, care to show me why we shouldn't blame the republicans on that one but should, instead, criticize the whole of congress?


The head of the Army Corps of Engineers said in an intereview that the levees that broke were already at the end of their design phase meaning what ever work that was to have been done on them had already been completed.

Are you SERIOUSLY debating whose responsibility it is to help in NO?

Hell, if I was there and watch my loo not only back up but actually float away, I couldn't care LESS who helped me. If Osama Bin Laden came around and helped me, he'd be my hero!

Is it really important to find someone to blame? Fu.. that, I say, I don't give a rat's rear who is to blame for bad organisation. Step in and make it better, dammit! No matter if you're federal, local or international, go there and HELP!

I couldn't care less whose job it is to offer aid there. Do it and be a hero! Quite frankly, if I had a political party, I'd dump my PR budget for the next gear into helping there now, without caring whose job it actually is. Hell, I'd sure as hell win the next elections!

Stop arguing on who the hell caused the damn problem and get off your butts and help the people.

Its the simplist solution :mad: :mad: :mad:

Even the people there realize it starts at a local level and goes up....


NEW ORLEANS (AFP) - Hurricane Katrina left him with little more than his black SWAT uniform, but Patrolman David Harris has little sympathy for his 300 colleagues who fled New Orleans as the deadly storm targeted the city.


"They're cowards, if this were the army they'd be shot," he said, barely able to contain his anger.

The loss of 300 officers when the city needed them most, severely affected rescue and law enforcement efforts as New Orleans descended into lawlessness in the days after Katrina unleashed her wrath on August 29.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050908/ts_alt_afp/usweatherpolice_050908173142

Stop arguing on who the hell caused the damn problem and get off your butts and help the people.

Its the simplist solution :mad: :mad: :mad:
A sane person! I thought they were extint!

Man, this is pretty sad. Blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame blame. Can't we just try to figure out WHAT went wrong and fix it instead of trying to figure out WHO did wrong and punish them?

I'm just gonna sidestep all party politics and say that alot of people screwed up on many levels. You can't just pick one person or group ie FEMA, the mayor, the governor, or Bush, and say BAAM! "They were responsible for this disaster!"

I think this is a sad sign of things to come. Soon, Bush will be blamed for early snowfall and the liberals will be blamed for traffic on the Capital beltway.
There is no hope for us.

Stop arguing on who the hell caused the damn problem and get off your butts and help the people.

Its the simplist solution :mad: :mad: :mad:

I second that but this the state of our nation were nothing gets done and nobody cares. :mad:

Yeah, the Gov't (whether Federal, State, or local) is responsible for the storm surge that broke the levees, causing the flooding in NO...

Because, ya know, everyone knew that there was going to be this massive hurricane that was going to hit NO years in advance and nothing was done to raise the height of the levees...

And as for all the rescuers, they should have been in there sooner. Who cares about windshear, we all know that's just a fancy word made up by the Gov't to cover their asses. Just like there's no lack of communications equipment along the entire Gulf Coast, that's just hogwash as the Gov't tries to pull the wool over our eyes...

It's all a conspiracy.

IMO..George W. and the head of FEMA dropped the ball on this one. :mad:

Four people were standing around looking at a piece of litter on the floor arguing on what to do with it while standing near a trash bin. A guy comes by and picks up the litter and throws it in the trash.

The four people arguing represents mainstream Americans who would rather argue or indiffrent to the problem. The person who picks up the litter represents the 10% of Americans who act and know what we should do.

Right know thew people who are arguing about N.O are the same people who are arguing about the litter while the rest of us are trying to make a diffrence.

Natural disasters are a federal issue.
You are incorrect. Natural disasters are first the responsibility of the local government, then the state government, and only when they feel they cannot handle the situation are then then suppose to request federal assistance.

this i have to quote...maybe if I use a different font size....maybe they(bushites) can get it.

natural disasters are a federal issue.
Ok. You're so good at tossing around unsupported allegations, find a source for this. I want to see where this comes from. Links please.

Ok. You're so good at tossing around unsupported allegations, find a source for this. I want to see where this comes from. Links please.

I think you're talking to air. OD2 severely cheesed off a mod the other day and hasn't posted since that I've seen. I could be wrong but methinks he's not w/ us for at least a little while.

Is It so hard to quit arguing and blaming... and instead do something to help these people and fix the problem? Liberals aren't to blame... conservatives aren't to blame... we've all made mistakes, and we can't go and change them back.

So insted of blaming people, let's just learn to be prepared for this sorta thing. If you're so concerned about these people, donate money, clothes, diapers, baby food, etc.; start an effort to do something for them, or maybe even take someone into your home like a bunch of people happen to be doing, including myself and friends and hundreds of other people.

People to blame:

Bush (in a small part)
Congress (another small Part)
DHS (medium part)
FEMA(Medium Part)
Governor (large part)
NO Mayor (large Part)

When the investigation goes forward, I am placing odds that the Governor of LA and the Mayor of NO gets most of the blame for this.
No bet on that one. I suspect you're exactly right. :(

Clearly you should blame yourself for depending on government.
Exactly! Excellent point!

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/m00nbeast/nitwit.jpg (http://www.filecabi.net/host/file/genius/wmv)
Nice photoshop chop job.

Nice photoshop chop job.

I thought so too :D

You are incorrect. Natural disasters are first the responsibility of the local government, then the state government, and only when they feel they cannot handle the situation are then then suppose to request federal assistance.

You are correct sir. And what so many people don't understand, being from other countries and believing hype they read, the order of responsibility lies first with the city, then the state, then the feds. Most of the feds participation is limited to what is requested by the governor. This governor chose to maintain control and not let the feds move in with unlimited resources. She's even arguing with the mayor of NO as to whether he has the authority to order forced evacuation so that chuckle heads who won't leave won't die of toxic crud. Sounds like she has authority issues.

You are incorrect. Natural disasters are first the responsibility of the local government, then the state government, and only when they feel they cannot handle the situation are then then suppose to request federal assistance.

you mean like they did, before the hurricane struck?

So, the debate here, as far as I can tell, is a question of which group ultimately bears the greatest responsibility for disaster response for a large scale disaster like Katrina.

Clearly there were screw ups starting at the local level and going all the way up to FEMA. Now, as I understand it, FEMA's purpose is rather specifically to take responsibility for the management of disaster relief in cases where the state and local governments aren't up to the task. FEMA, as an organization is supposed to have access to resources greater than the local authorities, and as the group with the greatest potential to help, I think it must be held responsible.

Bush and his followers blame Nagin for the mismanagement because they don't like large federal organizations. They think that everything should be handled on a local level, and so blame the locals when things go wrong because they don't expect anything from the federal government. That's why Bush apointed someone incompetent as head of FEMA - he didn't think the post was important.

But Katrina was a disaster of such magnitude that the local authorities were unable to respond effectively - due mostly to incompetence born of total lack of experience in the area of disaster management. Experience with disaster management is what FEMA is supposed to have.

It's sad that the Bush administration and the republicans in congress have managed so effectively to neuter FEMA that it wasn't able to serve it's purpose.

you mean like they did, before the hurricane struck?

Yup. Many people whose only source of news is Fox don't know that the Governor declared a state of emergency before the hurricane hit. The Bush administration later tried to shift blame by stating that she only declared a state of emergency days after Katrina hit.

.

The buck stops nowhere it seems these days.
Which is why New York City is taking it's own intitiative in anti-terror intelligence operations instead of sucking from the teat of the government.

moof (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4628429)

Which is why New York City is taking it's own intitiative in anti-terror intelligence operations instead of sucking from the teat of the government.

moof (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4628429)


And New york City has access to financial resources that allow it do so. Expecting the same of the rest of the country is silly. The Biloxi department of intelligence and counter-terrorism? Not going to happen with a budget worth doing.

Not to mention, if I were a taxpayer, I'd be asking why the hell I am having to support duplicated organizational structures and overhead.

Intelligence and homeland security should be a FEDERAL issue, and if your government isn't up to the job (beyond saying that they they are), MAKE THEM BE!