NationStates Jolt Archive

Here's a list I found here... http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/003704.html

I toss this one to the conservatives and Bush appologists here who talk shit about poor people like their some kind of cancer on society that actually choose to live the way they do, and don't have any idea what it's really like to be "poor", whether it's due to unearned wealth of an over indulgant family, or pure neuvo riche greed. (highlights by me)

Enjoy.

"Being poor is knowing exactly how much everything costs.

Being poor is getting angry at your kids for asking for all the crap they see on TV.

Being poor is having to keep buying $800 cars because they're what you can afford, and then having the cars break down on you, because there's not an $800 car in America that's worth a damn.

Being poor is hoping the toothache goes away.

Being poor is knowing your kid goes to friends' houses but never has friends over to yours.

Being poor is going to the restroom before you get in the school lunch line so your friends will be ahead of you and won't hear you say "I get free lunch" when you get to the cashier.

Being poor is living next to the freeway.

Being poor is coming back to the car with your children in the back seat, clutching that box of Raisin Bran you just bought and trying to think of a way to make the kids understand that the box has to last.

Being poor is wondering if your well-off sibling is lying when he says he doesn't mind when you ask for help.

Being poor is off-brand toys.

Being poor is a heater in only one room of the house.

Being poor is knowing you can't leave $5 on the coffee table when your friends are around.

Being poor is hoping your kids don't have a growth spurt.

Being poor is stealing meat from the store, frying it up before your mom gets home and then telling her she doesn't have make dinner tonight because you're not hungry anyway.

Being poor is Goodwill underwear.

Being poor is not enough space for everyone who lives with you.

Being poor is feeling the glued soles tear off your supermarket shoes when you run around the playground.

Being poor is your kid's school being the one with the 15-year-old textbooks and no air conditioning.

Being poor is thinking $8 an hour is a really good deal.

Being poor is relying on people who don't give a damn about you.

Being poor is an overnight shift under florescent lights.

Being poor is finding the letter your mom wrote to your dad, begging him for the child support.

Being poor is a bathtub you have to empty into the toilet.

Being poor is stopping the car to take a lamp from a stranger's trash.

Being poor is making lunch for your kid when a cockroach skitters over the bread, and you looking over to see if your kid saw.

Being poor is believing a GED actually makes a goddamned difference.

Being poor is people angry at you just for walking around in the mall.

Being poor is not taking the job because you can't find someone you trust to watch your kids.

Being poor is the police busting into the apartment right next to yours.

Being poor is not talking to that girl because she'll probably just laugh at your clothes.

Being poor is hoping you'll be invited for dinner.

Being poor is a sidewalk with lots of brown glass on it.

Being poor is people thinking they know something about you by the way you talk.

Being poor is needing that 35-cent raise.

Being poor is your kid's teacher assuming you don't have any books in your home.

Being poor is six dollars short on the utility bill and no way to close the gap.

Being poor is crying when you drop the mac and cheese on the floor.

Being poor is knowing you work as hard as anyone, anywhere.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you're not actually stupid.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you're not actually lazy.

Being poor is a six-hour wait in an emergency room with a sick child asleep on your lap.

Being poor is never buying anything someone else hasn't bought first.

Being poor is picking the 10 cent ramen instead of the 12 cent ramen because that's two extra packages for every dollar.

Being poor is having to live with choices you didn't know you made when you were 14 years old.

Being poor is getting tired of people wanting you to be grateful.

Being poor is knowing you're being judged.

Being poor is a box of crayons and a $1 coloring book from a community center Santa.

Being poor is checking the coin return slot of every soda machine you go by.

Being poor is deciding that it's all right to base a relationship on shelter.

Being poor is knowing you really shouldn't spend that buck on a Lotto ticket.

Being poor is hoping the register lady will spot you the dime.

Being poor is feeling helpless when your child makes the same mistakes you did, and won't listen to you beg them against doing so.

Being poor is a cough that doesn't go away.

Being poor is making sure you don't spill on the couch, just in case you have to give it back before the lease is up.

Being poor is a $200 paycheck advance from a company that takes $250 when the paycheck comes in.

Being poor is four years of night classes for an Associates of Art degree.

Being poor is a lumpy futon bed.

Being poor is knowing where the shelter is.

Being poor is people who have never been poor wondering why you choose to be so.

Being poor is knowing how hard it is to stop being poor.

Being poor is seeing how few options you have.

Being poor is running in place.

Being poor is people wondering why you didn't leave."

I agree with you entirely. The idea that poor people are lazy is pure class-ism with no solid basis in reality for the vast majority of the poor.

I recommend also reading "Nickeled and Dimed - On NOT getting by in America." It's another fine example of poor people who are NOT lazy, but who are still not making it.

God I wish the people who bitch at the poor could have to live like they do for a year or five. See how they feel then.

Oh, but don't worry, the assorted Republicans, Libertarians and average selfish joes will be along shortly, to tell us how wrong we are in daring to say that the poor, naked and suffering are more than bums, but human beings who deserve our help, if we are to call ourselves a civilized people.

EDIT - there are few issues that get me more riled than these. Please remember that when reading my posts on this subject. I'll try to remain respectful though.

"Nouveau"

"Being poor is having to live with choices you didn't know you made when you were 14 years old"
That's an awesome one.

Being a hypocrite is whining about the plight of the poor while you sit in your air conditioned house, wasting power and energy on a message board that will, in the long and short run, mean aboslutely nothing to anyone.

I agree with you entirely. The idea that poor people are lazy is pure class-ism with no solid basis in reality for the vast majority of the poor.

I recommend also reading "Nickeled and Dimed - On NOT getting by in America." It's another fine example of poor people who are NOT lazy, but who are still not making it.

God I wish the people who bitch at the poor could have to live like they do for a year or five. See how they feel then.

Oh, but don't worry, the assorted Republicans, Libertarians and average selfish joes will be along shortly, to tell us how wrong we are in daring to say that the poor, naked and suffering are more than bums, but human beings who deserve our help, if we are to call ourselves a civilized people.

EDIT - there are few issues that get me more riled than these. Please remember that when reading my posts on this subject. I'll try to remain respectful though.


Very well said, thank you for your articulate anger. I love it, and it's about time that more people started speaking for the workers and the poor in a more agressive way.

Again, thank you :)

"Nouveau"

Sarcasme?

Being a hypocrite is whining about the plight of the poor while you sit in your air conditioned house, wasting power and energy on a message board that will, in the long and short run, mean aboslutely nothing to anyone.

Well, I don't have air conditioning in my house, I'm on a computer at a library, and you're a jerk. Anything else?

Very well said, thank you for your articulate anger. I love it, and it's about time that more people started speaking for the workers and the poor in a more agressive way.

Again, thank you :)

Hey, it's what I do. :)

"Being poor is living next to the freeway"

Whoa. I can hit cars on the highway with a rock from my apartment. I guess I'm poor. Nuts.

addition - and I think most of us who went through college have experienced a large number of those things...mmmm, ramen....

Being a hypocrite is whining about the plight of the poor while you sit in your air conditioned house, wasting power and energy on a message board that will, in the long and short run, mean aboslutely nothing to anyone.

dang right. how dare he have any sort of life at all while caring about other people? doesn't he realize that it's one or the other?

Sarcasme?
No, just pointing out the correct way to spell nouveau riche, in case the poster wants to use it again sometime.

So: It's in one's best interest to not be poor.

Thanks for the enlightenment. :rolleyes:

Well, I don't have air conditioning in my house, I'm on a computer at a library,
You're still wasting time and effort. You could be devoting yourself to building houses that aren't next to interstates and then finding poor people and sticking them in the houses.
PS: I'm also in a library and w/o air conditioning in my shithole house thats within sight of a freeway, so, nyeh!

and you're a jerk.
Yes, and you're point is . . .

Anything else?
Yes, wageslave, bring me a soda and tell that bitchy proletariat to quit whining and looking me in the eye all the time.
I say, its almost time for crochet old chappys!

So: It's in one's best interest to not be poor.

Thanks for the enlightenment. :rolleyes:

What in the hell are you talking about? I think you're off on a tangent of justification for your own selfishness here, but feel free to "enlighten" me.

Being a hypocrite is whining about the plight of the poor while you sit in your air conditioned house, wasting power and energy on a message board that will, in the long and short run, mean aboslutely nothing to anyone.

Listen buddy. I liked you much better when your only purpose was to post random and amusing tidbits in a thread here and there.

But now you've called me out, I will defend myself. I'm not in a house, I'm in a dorm at College. I post on this messageboard for my own entertainment, for some social interaction, to keep up with the news a little, to learn new stuff, and lastly, the rare possibility that something I say *might* mean something to someone, whether it make them laugh, or make them think.

A hypocrite is, roughly speaking, someone who says/preaches one thing and does the other. I fail to see how speaking out for my beliefs is doing that. Or perhaps you are trying to say that a middle class individual cannot be a Socialist. Are you that petty, that you actually believe that people can only have feelings and opinions about stuff that directly affects them?

And what the hell makes you think you know me or the OP here? You don't know me. You have NO IDEA what I spend my time doing, or what I do to act on my beliefs.

But let's look at you. On several threads you have mentioned how much of a capitalist you are. Well, what the fuck are you doing here, huh? Why aren't you out working your ass off to get more stuff, then not sharing it with anyone? If I can post on a messageboard and support my beliefs and that makes me a hypocrite, then you are doing the same damn thing.

You don't know me, stop acting like you do.

addition - and I think most of us who went through college have experienced a large number of those things...mmmm, ramen....

i is a kowledge stewdent. i eat a bag of ramen a day...good thing there are many flavors...

No, just pointing out the correct way to spell nouveau riche, in case the poster wants to use it again sometime.

D'accord.

I was making an assuption, and I shouldn't have. My bad.

So: It's in one's best interest to not be poor.

Thanks for the enlightenment. :rolleyes:

No it's not in one's best interest.

I'm having trouble understanding what you are trying to get accross. :confused:

Yes, and you're point is . . .

Well, I have to give it to you. At least you don't try to hide behind bullshit excuses for acting like an asshole. Congrats, you are one of the first people I've seen who are willing to admit that they are a BAD PERSON. Though I'm sure the dubiousness of that distinction will become clear to you momentarily...

I agree with you entirely. The idea that poor people are lazy is pure class-ism with no solid basis in reality for the vast majority of the poor.

I recommend also reading "Nickeled and Dimed - On NOT getting by in America." It's another fine example of poor people who are NOT lazy, but who are still not making it.

God I wish the people who bitch at the poor could have to live like they do for a year or five. See how they feel then.

Oh, but don't worry, the assorted Republicans, Libertarians and average selfish joes will be along shortly, to tell us how wrong we are in daring to say that the poor, naked and suffering are more than bums, but human beings who deserve our help, if we are to call ourselves a civilized people.

EDIT - there are few issues that get me more riled than these. Please remember that when reading my posts on this subject. I'll try to remain respectful though.

Ugh. Don't be ignorant. I grew up incredibly poor. My father abandoned my mother and me when I was young. We never had health or dental insurance and I couldn't even afford new school clothes most of the time. We were constantly in debt. My father never even paid his court-ordered child support. Yeah, guess what - my mom and I are both libertarians. I don't bitch at the poor. I know what it's like to be poor. But excuse me if I think the government doesn't have a right to STEAL from people through taxation to give money to others. My ideology has nothing to do with my personal feelings about poor people and it's certainly not self-serving since I'm usually broke and I owe more money than I want to admit on my college loans. I'm also trying to remain respectful, but I am so goddamn TIRED of being called selfish and mean spirited and whatever else because I don't think it's all right to invoke the full force of our nanny state--especially when there's no ethical or constitutional basis--whenever there's some problem in society.

What in the hell are you talking about? I think you're off on a tangent of justification for your own selfishness here, but feel free to "enlighten" me.

It's bad to be poor.
Don't play in traffic.
Don't put the fork in the light socket.
Don't take candy from strangers.

C'mon now. Nobody wants to be poor. Most people try not to be. That's few families STAY impoverished for more than a generation or two. (Heard it on NPR; no I don't have a link).

All I have to say is this: Communism is a bad idea.

It's bad to be poor.
Don't play in traffic.
Don't put the fork in the light socket.
Don't take candy from strangers.

C'mon now. Nobody wants to be poor. Most people try not to be. That's few families STAY impoverished for more than a generation or two. (Heard it on NPR; no I don't have a link).

All I have to say is this: Communism is a bad idea.

I'm not advocating communism. I believe in a sensible balance between the good elements in Capitalism and Socialism. One of which would be more help for the poor, if only to relieve some suffering.

Listen buddy. I liked you much better when your only purpose was to post random and amusing tidbits in a thread here and there.
<snip>
Touchy, touchy. I merely made a brief observation on the sort of people who feel for others. Understanding is the most overrated and annoying thing anyone can do, and that hatred burns within me like a flickering 12 watt bulb, or maybe even a 15 watt.

Actually, that was an amusing tidbit, provided that you aren't the butt of it. However, if you, as my Eternal Lord and Master, desire that I, your humble Sex Slave, should return to random comments, you need only express the desire in the form of a wish. However, Oh Great One, when no orders are given I, as a mere mortal, am forced to make my own value calls.
*Grovels*
Please, Guardian of My Soul, take me back to thine warm and comforting bosom. Cast me not into the long, long dark of things that aren't thing. Save me from my own slight malfiesence and deliver me to thy glory, He in Whose Name All Good Is Done.

Being poor is knowing how hard it is to stop being poor.

bingo! #1 star prize right there.

you'll hear many conservatives say that the way out of being poor is to stop being "lazy", get a decent job and knuckle down to some real work. the problem is so often when you're poor you work so very hard just to pay the bills and stay alive - forget saving or working yourself into a better life... once you're there you're stuck there, fighting to live, working your ass off just to put food on the table. many of the poor we're talking about are some of the hardest working people on the planet. sure there are dole scroungers, but i'm pretty sure they are a minority... or they're the ones who have given up the fight.
its largely the banks and other people - who are higher up 'the ladder' than you - and their greed who keep the poor where they are, but thats another issue...


and how can i say all this when i'm sitting in my fairly nice house with a computer and a car, etc? i've watched my parents battle with this for my whole life - so many things on that list (those that i understood, a lot of it was very american :confused: ) reminded me of so much of my childhood. things are better now, but thats after 20 years of solid absolutley back-breaking work on their part, and we're still not quite the other side of poor yet :(
thankfully my parents managed to send me to a good school to get a good education, with contributions from my (money-hoarding) grandmother, but sometimes at the expense of food on the table :(
for that i am so very grateful

No it's not in one's best interest.

I'm having trouble understanding what you are trying to get accross. :confused:

That this is a silly thread. If you don't *already* know it's bad to be poor, I doubt it'll really get the point across.

A good chunck of my childhood was spent in eastern Slovakia (Saris county), which has a high degree of poverty and sometimes had over 30% unemployment.

Don't be fooled. Keep YOURSELF off the dole. Don't worry about others. Programs like Johnson's "Great Society" were a failure. Clinton cleaned up the welfare rolls in the 90s because it had to be done. As long as there is currency, there will be poor people.

I'm not advocating communism. I believe in a sensible balance between the good elements in Capitalism and Socialism. One of which would be more help for the poor, if only to relieve some suffering.

And that would be? When is "more" "enough"?

Ugh. Don't be ignorant. I grew up incredibly poor. My father abandoned my mother and me when I was young. We never had health or dental insurance and I couldn't even afford new school clothes most of the time. We were constantly in debt. My father never even paid his court-ordered child support. Yeah, guess what - my mom and I are both libertarians. I don't bitch at the poor. I know what it's like to be poor. But excuse me if I think the government doesn't have a right to STEAL from people through taxation to give money to others. My ideology has nothing to do with my personal feelings about poor people and it's certainly not self-serving since I'm usually broke and I owe more money than I want to admit on my college loans. I'm also trying to remain respectful, but I am so goddamn TIRED of being called selfish and mean spirited and whatever else because I don't think it's all right to invoke the full force of our nanny state--especially when there's no ethical or constitutional basis--whenever there's some problem in society.

Well then you are one of the few Libertarians I have met that I can say I respect. If you are honestly telling the truth and believe in Libertarianism, I can't fault you.

It's bad to be poor.
Don't play in traffic.
Don't put the fork in the light socket.
Don't take candy from strangers.

C'mon now. Nobody wants to be poor. Most people try not to be. That's few families STAY impoverished for more than a generation or two. (Heard it on NPR; no I don't have a link).

All I have to say is this: Communism is a bad idea.

How did we arrive at communism? Checking back, yours is the very first mention of communism on this thread. What planet are you from?

Well, I have to give it to you. At least you don't try to hide behind bullshit excuses for acting like an asshole. Congrats, you are one of the first people I've seen who are willing to admit that they are a BAD PERSON. Though I'm sure the dubiousness of that distinction will become clear to you momentarily...
Consider y'self sigged, m'lud.
(In case this doesn't tell you, I probably will never decide that I have received anything less than a medal of honor from you. Your disgust is it's own reward.)

How did we arrive at communism? Checking back, yours is the very first mention of communism on this thread. What planet are you from?

Any large scale "aiding" of the poor requires a redistribution of wealth, which is tantamount to Communism.

Earth. You?

Any large scale "aiding" of the poor requires a redistribution of wealth, which is tantamount to Communism.

Earth. You?

ANY aid to the poor is communism? i can't even respond, the mind boggles...

addition - and I think most of us who went through college have experienced a large number of those things.

One of the points should have been "being poor isn't always a lifelong state of affairs." People usually start their lives poor (either while going through college or working a low wage job), work their way up to a higher wage, and then either retire or begin to earn less money as they grow older. If you measure wealth based on income, most people will be "poor" at the beginning and end of their lives, as that is when they are least capable of earning money, but fairly well off in the middle years. If you measure wealth based on accumulated assets, people tend to get progressively wealthier as time goes on.

There are some people who stay poor all their lives, but remember whenever you see statistics on poverty that a significant number of the poor people listed are likely either young people who have not yet had the chance to move into a higher income bracket or the elderly who no longer have to earn as high a wage because they can live off the assets they accumulated in their earlier years.

Being poor is thinking $8 an hour is a really good deal.

Eight bucks American? Sounds pretty good to me!

ANY aid to the poor is communism? i can't even respond, the mind boggles...

Any large scale "aiding" of the poor requires a redistribution of wealth, which is tantamount to Communism.
My mind boggles at your lack of reading ability.

Aren't food stamps, subsidized housing, paying far less taxes and the various other programs "enough"? When do you say "ok, you're poor because you're lazy."?

Ah... but no one wants to even talk about that.

ANY aid to the poor is communism? i can't even respond, the mind boggles...

Agreed, it's amazing the kind of self defense mechanisms that some of them come up with. Anything at all to justify a callous disregard for other human beings. At least Ted Bundy used a club.

Well then you are one of the few Libertarians I have met that I can say I respect. If you are honestly telling the truth and believe in Libertarianism, I can't fault you.

Yeah, I don't understand that. My boyfriend and I have nearly identical political beliefs, but he was fortunate enough to grow up in a middle class family with hardworking and educated parents. He and I hold the same libertarian economic views, so there's no difference in the cogency of our arguments. The only difference between us is that we grew up differently. Crediting me for my background or attacking him for his background doesn't knock down our arguments about how the economy should work or the limitations and scope of the government - it's nothing more than the fallacy of ad hominem. I'd rather debate the intellectual merits of libertarianism than justify why I should be allowed to believe the way I do. I could be a hypocrite, I could have grown up rich with a trustfund, but that wouldn't mean that I am wrong.

Agreed, it's amazing the kind of self defense mechanisms that some of them come up with. Anything at all to justify a callous disregard for other human beings. At least Ted Bundy used a club.

Thank goodness you're open to the ideas of other people.

Oh, wait. Under Political Correctness, only those that agree with you are allowed freedom of speech. :headbang:

Now, do you care to debate me on SUBSTANCE and on what I actually wrote, or just toss around personal jibes?

Any large scale "aiding" of the poor requires a redistribution of wealth, which is tantamount to Communism.
My mind boggles at your lack of reading ability.

Aren't food stamps, subsidized housing, paying far less taxes and the various other programs "enough"? When do you say "ok, you're poor because you're lazy."?

Ah... but no one wants to even talk about that.

i really want to argue this with you, but i'm fascinated by your worldview. do you include environmental protections, public education, nationally enforced minimum wage laws and katrina relief large scale programs? medicaid?

i really want to argue this with you, but i'm fascinated by your worldview. do you include environmental protections, public education, nationally enforced minimum wage laws and katrina relief large scale programs? medicaid?


I was in the middle of writting this very thing.

But, you forgot to include farm subsidies, and social security...

i really want to argue this with you, but i'm fascinated by your worldview. do you include environmental protections, public education, nationally enforced minimum wage laws and katrina relief large scale programs? medicaid?

Actually, I'm for all of that except for part of American public education: we need to turn back the clock to the 60s and rid ourselves of the Department of Education. We've funneled BILLIONS into that black hole, and education in the US has gotten worse, not better. We need to turn education back to the states where it belongs.

I fully believe, however, that what exists today is an adequate safety net against poverty. Why do you not think so?

PS- Care to talk about your skipping "large scale" and just being incredulous?

I was in the middle of writting this very thing.

But, you forgot to include farm subsidies, and social security...

antitrust laws, crime prevention programs, even the police force.

Here's a list I found here... http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/003704.html

I toss this one to the conservatives and Bush appologists here who talk shit about poor people like their some kind of cancer on society that actually choose to live the way they do, and don't have any idea what it's really like to be "poor", whether it's due to unearned wealth of an over indulgant family, or pure neuvo riche greed. (highlights by me)

Enjoy.

"Being poor is knowing exactly how much everything costs.

Being poor is getting angry at your kids for asking for all the crap they see on TV.

Being poor is having to keep buying $800 cars because they're what you can afford, and then having the cars break down on you, because there's not an $800 car in America that's worth a damn.

Being poor is hoping the toothache goes away.

Being poor is knowing your kid goes to friends' houses but never has friends over to yours.

Being poor is going to the restroom before you get in the school lunch line so your friends will be ahead of you and won't hear you say "I get free lunch" when you get to the cashier.

Being poor is living next to the freeway.

Being poor is coming back to the car with your children in the back seat, clutching that box of Raisin Bran you just bought and trying to think of a way to make the kids understand that the box has to last.

Being poor is wondering if your well-off sibling is lying when he says he doesn't mind when you ask for help.

Being poor is off-brand toys.

Being poor is a heater in only one room of the house.

Being poor is knowing you can't leave $5 on the coffee table when your friends are around.

Being poor is hoping your kids don't have a growth spurt.

Being poor is stealing meat from the store, frying it up before your mom gets home and then telling her she doesn't have make dinner tonight because you're not hungry anyway.

Being poor is Goodwill underwear.

Being poor is not enough space for everyone who lives with you.

Being poor is feeling the glued soles tear off your supermarket shoes when you run around the playground.

Being poor is your kid's school being the one with the 15-year-old textbooks and no air conditioning.

Being poor is thinking $8 an hour is a really good deal.

Being poor is relying on people who don't give a damn about you.

Being poor is an overnight shift under florescent lights.

Being poor is finding the letter your mom wrote to your dad, begging him for the child support.

Being poor is a bathtub you have to empty into the toilet.

Being poor is stopping the car to take a lamp from a stranger's trash.

Being poor is making lunch for your kid when a cockroach skitters over the bread, and you looking over to see if your kid saw.

Being poor is believing a GED actually makes a goddamned difference.

Being poor is people angry at you just for walking around in the mall.

Being poor is not taking the job because you can't find someone you trust to watch your kids.

Being poor is the police busting into the apartment right next to yours.

Being poor is not talking to that girl because she'll probably just laugh at your clothes.

Being poor is hoping you'll be invited for dinner.

Being poor is a sidewalk with lots of brown glass on it.

Being poor is people thinking they know something about you by the way you talk.

Being poor is needing that 35-cent raise.

Being poor is your kid's teacher assuming you don't have any books in your home.

Being poor is six dollars short on the utility bill and no way to close the gap.

Being poor is crying when you drop the mac and cheese on the floor.

Being poor is knowing you work as hard as anyone, anywhere.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you're not actually stupid.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you're not actually lazy.

Being poor is a six-hour wait in an emergency room with a sick child asleep on your lap.

Being poor is never buying anything someone else hasn't bought first.

Being poor is picking the 10 cent ramen instead of the 12 cent ramen because that's two extra packages for every dollar.

Being poor is having to live with choices you didn't know you made when you were 14 years old.

Being poor is getting tired of people wanting you to be grateful.

Being poor is knowing you're being judged.

Being poor is a box of crayons and a $1 coloring book from a community center Santa.

Being poor is checking the coin return slot of every soda machine you go by.

Being poor is deciding that it's all right to base a relationship on shelter.

Being poor is knowing you really shouldn't spend that buck on a Lotto ticket.

Being poor is hoping the register lady will spot you the dime.

Being poor is feeling helpless when your child makes the same mistakes you did, and won't listen to you beg them against doing so.

Being poor is a cough that doesn't go away.

Being poor is making sure you don't spill on the couch, just in case you have to give it back before the lease is up.

Being poor is a $200 paycheck advance from a company that takes $250 when the paycheck comes in.

Being poor is four years of night classes for an Associates of Art degree.

Being poor is a lumpy futon bed.

Being poor is knowing where the shelter is.

Being poor is people who have never been poor wondering why you choose to be so.

Being poor is knowing how hard it is to stop being poor.

Being poor is seeing how few options you have.

Being poor is running in place.

Being poor is people wondering why you didn't leave."

yeah that describes my childhood. I am a republican though. I work hard, I do the best I can for my kids, I am not in that situation any longer (thank God) and hope never to be again. I don't want my kids to grow up the way I had to. I worked 80 hours a week when I was 16 and still tried to go to school, I didn't show up much but I graduated, I am working even harder now. I hope that people read this and realize that being poor is hard and rising from it is even harder. People need help, and the motivation to work harder than the average person for the same things, eventually you will come out on top, if you don't give up.

We need to turn education back to the states where it belongs.


You might want to ask Kansas science teachers how that might work out.

Actually, I'm for all of that except for part of American public education: we need to turn back the clock to the 60s and rid ourselves of the Department of Education. We've funneled BILLIONS into that black hole, and education in the US has gotten worse, not better. We need to turn education back to the states where it belongs.

I fully believe, however, that what exists today is an adequate safety net against poverty. Why do you not think so?

PS- Care to talk about your skipping "large scale" and just being incredulous?

what have i listed that you consider modest in scale? because it all seems pretty "large scale" to me. and you feel that graduating students today are less educated than they were in the '50's? upon what do you base that? or am i misunderstanding the phrase "we need to turn back the clock to the 60s and rid ourselves of the Department of Education. We've funneled BILLIONS into that black hole, and education in the US has gotten worse, not better"

antitrust laws, crime prevention programs, even the police force.

I do love how you assume that just because I believe that the poor are getting enough help already you seem to think I'm a dyed-in-the-wool capitalist.

You're so cute when you're being condescending. :rolleyes:

antitrust laws, crime prevention programs, even the police force.

Right <sarcasm>I mean, why should I pay out of my hard earned salary to fund something as frivolous as "civil defense"? Obviously that should be left to the individual. if they can't pay for it, they don't deserve it.</sarcasm>

What makes a policy socialist or communist in orientation? Is it the underlying principle that the government has the right to interfere in the market or is it how MUCH the government interferes in the market?

The latter just doesn't make any sense. That's so imprecise and subjective of a criterion that I wouldn't even know how to measure a socialist or communist policy. Also, a government can implement socialistic legislation without fundamentally being a socialist government. But if you're trying to deny that public welfare and social security aren't socialist policies, then you're either intellectually dishonest, philosophically ignorant or too biased to objectively critique your own views. Of COURSE welfare is socialist, but it doesn't mean the US is socialist. Why not just accept that you support the co-existence of socialistic, redistributive government programs and the market.

what have i listed that you consider modest in scale? because it all seems pretty "large scale" to me. and you feel that graduating students today are less educated than they were in the '50's? upon what do you base that? or am i misunderstanding the phrase "we need to turn back the clock to the 60s and rid ourselves of the Department of Education. We've funneled BILLIONS into that black hole, and education in the US has gotten worse, not better"

By far. American schools are generally inferior up until University level. Surely, you've heard of this?

• The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (The New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004).
• The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
• Our workers are so ignorant, and lack so many basic skills, that American businesses spend $30 billion a year on remedial training (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
• Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the Earth. Seventeen percent believe the Earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).
• Only 24 states require three years of math to graduate from high school and even fewer require that much science. Over forty percent of high schools, furthermore, don’t offer any Advanced Placement courses—which let high school students do college-level work—in these fields."
http://frist.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Columns.Detail&Column_id=48&Month=12&Year=2004&IsTextOnly=1

I do love how you assume that just because I believe that the poor are getting enough help already you seem to think I'm a dyed-in-the-wool capitalist.

You're so cute when you're being condescending. :rolleyes:

thanks, my ex girlfriends agree with you, which i suppose is why i'm single.

and you're the one starting with outlandish blanket statement

Any large scale "aiding" of the poor requires a redistribution of wealth, which is tantamount to Communism.

and then went on to support large, multibillion dollar government programs aimed at aiding the poor

Actually, I'm for all of that except for part of American public education:

...so, while i'm periodically patronizing and condescending, i'm at least consistant in my opinion that government and the programs it enacts are an opportunity, if used correctly for us to collectively solve problems that face us as a group.

now, if you mean by your quotation marks around the word "aiding" that you're only against the programs that DON'T WORK, then we're in total agreement and i'd be happy to argue what programs do and don't affect the poor positively (i bet we won't have the same ones in mind, so it'll be equally vitriolic, i'm sure), but if not, i'm sick of "small government" conservatives who hate government subsidies in the abstract but are unwilling to go on record as being against any specific one.

You might want to ask Kansas science teachers how that might work out.

I don't see the DoE walking in and settling the issue, do you? :p

By far. American schools are generally inferior up until University level. Surely, you've heard of this?

• The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (The New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004).
• The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
• Our workers are so ignorant, and lack so many basic skills, that American businesses spend $30 billion a year on remedial training (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
• Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the Earth. Seventeen percent believe the Earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).
• Only 24 states require three years of math to graduate from high school and even fewer require that much science. Over forty percent of high schools, furthermore, don’t offer any Advanced Placement courses—which let high school students do college-level work—in these fields."
http://frist.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Columns.Detail&Column_id=48&Month=12&Year=2004&IsTextOnly=1

frankly, i agree, although i'd suggest that the solution would be stronger national standards in education, rather than the weaker ones that would likely be the result of returning control to smaller, more poorly funded states and communities.

and yes, education does count as a specific program, so my above post is inaccurate in that respect. congratulations on taking a stand somewhere, even if it's somewhere i disagree with. many who agree with you don't, and i honestly and non-sarcastically appreciate it.

thanks, my ex girlfriends agree with you, which i suppose is why i'm single.

and you're the one starting with outlandish blanket statement

and then went on to support large, multibillion dollar government programs aimed at aiding the poor

...so, while i'm periodically patronizing and condescending, i'm at least consistant in my opinion that government and the programs it enacts are an opportunity, if used correctly for us to collectively solve problems that face us as a group.

now, if you mean by your quotation marks around the word "aiding" that you're only against the programs that DON'T WORK, then we're in total agreement and i'd be happy to argue what programs do and don't affect the poor positively (i bet we won't have the same ones in mind, so it'll be equally vitriolic, i'm sure), but if not, i'm sick of "small government" conservatives who hate government subsidies in the abstract but are unwilling to go on record as being against any specific one.

Ahem. (see bolded above). I've asked what that was. I've asked how much is enough. I've asked why you don't answer my original post as I wrote it ("large scale" and "tantamount"? remember?)

I don't see any value in speaking with you until you answer any of these. That's not a flame, that's just all there is to it.

frankly, i agree, although i'd suggest that the solution would be stronger national standards in education, rather than the weaker ones that would likely be the result of returning control to smaller, more poorly funded states and communities.

and yes, education does count as a specific program, so my above post is inaccurate in that respect. congratulations on taking a stand somewhere, even if it's somewhere i disagree with. many who agree with you don't, and i honestly and non-sarcastically appreciate it.

Thanks.

NB: I worked for three and a half years in an inner city school district. That there is any cohesion now between national, state, and local budgets or focuses is fantasy. All I'm proposing is to fun the states, get rid of the DoE, and eliminate the local Board of Educations and ban the unions from education, so that teachers are on a merit system so that they can earn how much or how little they are worth.

Yeah, I don't understand that. My boyfriend and I have nearly identical political beliefs, but he was fortunate enough to grow up in a middle class family with hardworking and educated parents. He and I hold the same libertarian economic views, so there's no difference in the cogency of our arguments. The only difference between us is that we grew up differently. Crediting me for my background or attacking him for his background doesn't knock down our arguments about how the economy should work or the limitations and scope of the government - it's nothing more than the fallacy of ad hominem. I'd rather debate the intellectual merits of libertarianism than justify why I should be allowed to believe the way I do. I could be a hypocrite, I could have grown up rich with a trustfund, but that wouldn't mean that I am wrong.

The respect is from having a position based on personal experience. The middle and upper classes can debate ad nausium the situation of the poor, but I would respect the input of someone who was/had been actually poor, Socialist, Libertarian or otherwise.

Ahem. (see bolded above). I've asked what that was. I've asked how much is enough. I've asked why you don't answer my original post as I wrote it ("large scale" and "tantamount"? remember?)

I don't see any value in speaking with you until you answer any of these. That's not a flame, that's just all there is to it.

i'm afraid i don't understand the nature of your question, so answering it would be duifficult. does the words "large scale" or "tantamount" in the sentance change the underlying meaning of it in some fundamental way? am i focusing on programs too small in scale to apply? if so, what would a large scale progrem even be? does tantamount in the sentance mean something other than "similar" or "akin to"? if so, what? and how does my apperant misunderstanding of your origional statement discount everything else i've said in this post?

wow I fit into all those descriptions almost perfectly :(
I think I need more zoloft now,oh well onward with the revolution

Thanks.

NB: I worked for three and a half years in an inner city school district. That there is any cohesion now between national, state, and local budgets or focuses is fantasy. All I'm proposing is to fun the states, get rid of the DoE, and eliminate the local Board of Educations and ban the unions from education, so that teachers are on a merit system so that they can earn how much or how little they are worth.

how much they are worth by whose judgement, without the DoE, local boards or teachers unions (are there other teaching organizations who could step in in this situation? pardon my ignorance of the american school system, i'm not from there so i don't know all the details)?

Aren't food stamps, subsidized housing, paying far less taxes and the various other programs "enough"? When do you say "ok, you're poor because you're lazy."?


Do you understand how much capital it takes to get from "poor" to "middle class"? It takes not only tons of work, but tons of investment and luck. Many people can support their family barely on $8 an hour, and saving any is out of the question. So how're you supposed to, say, get a house then?

i'm afraid i don't understand the nature of your question, so answering it would be duifficult. does the words "large scale" or "tantamount" in the sentance change the underlying meaning of it in some fundamental way? am i focusing on programs too small in scale to apply? if so, what would a large scale progrem even be? does tantamount in the sentance mean something other than "similar" or "akin to"? if so, what? and how does my apperant misunderstanding of your origional statement discount everything else i've said in this post?

Go back and re-read the thread. So far, all of your replies have been "oh yeahs?". Really.

On post 31, you misrepresent:
Originally Posted by Markreich
Any large scale "aiding" of the poor requires a redistribution of wealth, which is tantamount to Communism.

OM: ANY aid to the poor is communism? i can't even respond, the mind boggles...

You never even answer my post 33:
Originally Posted by Outer Munronia
ANY aid to the poor is communism? i can't even respond, the mind boggles...

MR: Any large scale "aiding" of the poor requires a redistribution of wealth, which is tantamount to Communism.
My mind boggles at your lack of reading ability.

Aren't food stamps, subsidized housing, paying far less taxes and the various other programs "enough"? When do you say "ok, you're poor because you're lazy."?

Ah... but no one wants to even talk about that.

Instead, we get post 37:
OM: i really want to argue this with you, but i'm fascinated by your worldview. do you include environmental protections, public education, nationally enforced minimum wage laws and katrina relief large scale programs? medicaid?

Which I gamely answer in 39, and AGAIN ask you about your original reply:
Actually, I'm for all of that except for part of American public education: we need to turn back the clock to the 60s and rid ourselves of the Department of Education. We've funneled BILLIONS into that black hole, and education in the US has gotten worse, not better. We need to turn education back to the states where it belongs.

I fully believe, however, that what exists today is an adequate safety net against poverty. Why do you not think so?

PS- Care to talk about your skipping "large scale" and just being incredulous?

To which, post 43:
OM: what have i listed that you consider modest in scale? because it all seems pretty "large scale" to me. and you feel that graduating students today are less educated than they were in the '50's? upon what do you base that? or am i misunderstanding the phrase "we need to turn back the clock to the 60s and rid ourselves of the Department of Education. We've funneled BILLIONS into that black hole, and education in the US has gotten worse, not better"

...which I answer with the list of how US education is in the toilet, and you agree.

See what I mean? You've yet to posit WHAT you would do differently from what exists now, why you misrepresented in your first reply, or indeed even enumerated any real position you have.

At this point, we don't have debate. Unless you wish to remedy that, I really don't feel like carrying on this conversation.

how much they are worth by whose judgement, without the DoE, local boards or teachers unions (are there other teaching organizations who could step in in this situation? pardon my ignorance of the american school system, i'm not from there so i don't know all the details)?

Those are just my opinons. I assume you're not an American, then?

I'll cite an example: the Stratford, Connecticut Board of Education now consumes 74% of that town's budget (population ~50.000). Aptitude test scores have not changed in over 15 years, though the budget has expanded from 40% or so. Does that make sense?

Likewise, the DoE's budget is THREE TIMES NASA's.

It is impossible to fire a teacher. Even one that got caught sleeping with students in Stratford (my parents live there, so I'm up on local news) was just relocated several towns away. When I was working in that urban school district, I was asked during 9-11 (BY A TEACHER!) where in New York City the Pentagon was.

The Unions have to go.

Being a hypocrite is whining about the plight of the poor while you sit in your air conditioned house, wasting power and energy on a message board that will, in the long and short run, mean aboslutely nothing to anyone.
Ouch. But it hit home a little with this one...

Here's a list I found here... http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/003704.html

I toss this one to the conservatives and Bush appologists here who talk shit about poor people like their some kind of cancer on society that actually choose to live the way they do, and don't have any idea what it's really like to be "poor", whether it's due to unearned wealth of an over indulgant family, or pure neuvo riche greed. (highlights by me)

My family was as poor as they come growing up, and I'm still moderately conservative. I'm also annoyed by fellow poor people that bitch all the time when there is rarely any reason short of being retarded that one can't go to some kind of college in hopes of getting out of the shit they're in. I don't see fellow poor people as a cancer on society, and, in fact, don't know anyone who does. They're necessary for society to work smoothly. Oh, and way to imply that all wealthy people are either greedy or undeserving.

By the way, highlights are errors.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you're not actually stupid.

A modest one, are we?

Ugh. Don't be ignorant. I grew up incredibly poor. My father abandoned my mother and me when I was young. We never had health or dental insurance and I couldn't even afford new school clothes most of the time. We were constantly in debt. My father never even paid his court-ordered child support. Yeah, guess what - my mom and I are both libertarians. I don't bitch at the poor. I know what it's like to be poor. But excuse me if I think the government doesn't have a right to STEAL from people through taxation to give money to others. My ideology has nothing to do with my personal feelings about poor people and it's certainly not self-serving since I'm usually broke and I owe more money than I want to admit on my college loans. I'm also trying to remain respectful, but I am so goddamn TIRED of being called selfish and mean spirited and whatever else because I don't think it's all right to invoke the full force of our nanny state--especially when there's no ethical or constitutional basis--whenever there's some problem in society.

Thank you. I was going to make a similar rant (I am not unexperienced in being broke) but you beat me to it. It's been my experience that dedicated socialists usually come from upper-middle class. It is not socioeconomic status that makes Libertaruians it is ethics. Specifically work ethic. Regardless of 'class' socialists beleive in a free ride usually at the expense of someone who does'nt. As I once said to the local party chair smoking outside a gubenatorial debate with the 'People's Party' (Local socialists) candidate, " How come the cosialists all have nicer cars?"

Now that I am done weeping, can we get around to what this proves?

Look, we're all human...I feel bad about homeless people, especially when I see them on the streets. Hell, I always pop a couple bucks into their little cups; I always humor them because I can relate to their problems. At the same time, I think social welfare is bullshit, and if you're poor it's your own fault. I grew up dirt poor...I lived in a trailor. Lucky for me I had working class parents...they eventually settled down, quit being street musicians, got real jobs and now we're middle class nearly a decade later. Nobody has to be poor if they exert some effort into life.

Those are just my opinons. I assume you're not an American, then?

I'll cite an example: the Stratford, Connecticut Board of Education now consumes 74% of that town's budget (population ~50.000). Aptitude test scores have not changed in over 15 years, though the budget has expanded from 40% or so. Does that make sense?

Likewise, the DoE's budget is THREE TIMES NASA's.

It is impossible to fire a teacher. Even one that got caught sleeping with students in Stratford (my parents live there, so I'm up on local news) was just relocated several towns away. When I was working in that urban school district, I was asked during 9-11 (BY A TEACHER!) where in New York City the Pentagon was.

The Unions have to go.

i'm not. but, since this started out as an argument about poverty aid programs in general, not american ones specifically, i shouldn't think that'd discount me. and yeah, i agree, the US education system is in trouble. but a decentralization of power doesn't seem like the solution. canada, western europe, scandanavia, the pacific rim et. cetera all have equally or in many cases, much more centralized control over their education system and they're the very same countries that score better than the US on standardized tests and are generally accepted to provide "better" public education. so wouldn't a strong but focused centralized education system, perhaps modeled on sweden (do they still have 100% literacy? how do they do that?) be a better solution than multiple local/statewide systems? sure, in the event the it was broken down some areas would receive improved education, but others would be left behind or get much worse. you say the DoE needs to be disbanded, and i don't neccessarily disagree, but do we need to discount the idea that it could more productively be replaced by a better designed central organization?

oh, and about the difference between "any aid" and then i talk about large scale programs, and any "large scale" aid. i still don't get the difference, but you assure me there is one and that i misrepresented you, and i'll take your word for it, since you seem unwilling to explain the difference to me. my bad about misunderstanding what was, apperantly, your point.

Can I just ask a question, what is the minimum wage in America, also what is the price of a Big Mac. (I need something to compare to)


BTW if anyone's interested the minimum wage in Australia is $12.74 Australian.

i'm not. but, since this started out as an argument about poverty aid programs in general, not american ones specifically, i shouldn't think that'd discount me. and yeah, i agree, the US education system is in trouble. but a decentralization of power doesn't seem like the solution. canada, western europe, scandanavia, the pacific rim et. cetera all have equally or in many cases, much more centralized control over their education system and they're the very same countries that score better than the US on standardized tests and are generally accepted to provide "better" public education.

And they are all the size of American states. The UK is the size of Oregon. Sweden is the size of California. France is two Scotlands smaller than Texas. Etc. Being compact really helps.

so wouldn't a strong but focused centralized education system, perhaps modeled on sweden (do they still have 100% literacy? how do they do that?) be a better solution than multiple local/statewide systems?

For 30 years, the DoE has been a failure. Why let it continue?
If the EU could implement "the swedish system" so that Romania or Spain would have their same effects, that'd be fine and I'd except that education could be done on a continent-size basis.
But then again, Sweden is the size of California, with only 9 million (there are about 30 million Californians alone). Thus, I suspect that the Swedes, with their homogenous population (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9586118&postcount=59) have it easier.

sure, in the event the it was broken down some areas would receive improved education, but others would be left behind or get much worse. you say the DoE needs to be disbanded, and i don't neccessarily disagree, but do we need to discount the idea that it could more productively be replaced by a better designed central organization?

oh, and about the difference between "any aid" and then i talk about large scale programs, and any "large scale" aid. i still don't get the difference, but you assure me there is one and that i misrepresented you, and i'll take your word for it, since you seem unwilling to explain the difference to me. my bad about misunderstanding what was, apperantly, your point.

Okay... :
America has programs for supsidized food, government subsidized housing, paid schooling, etc.
Further, the bottom 50% of incomes pay less than 4% of the taxes. (http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html)
How much is enough? When do we say "Okay, this person is poor because they just don't want to work."?

Can I just ask a question, what is the minimum wage in America, also what is the price of a Big Mac. (I need something to compare to)


BTW if anyone's interested the minimum wage in Australia is $12.74 Australian.

That seems really high. The minimum wage here in Canada is a little less than $7.00, and I think the Canadian and Australian dollars are worth close to the same amount.

EDIT: I mean the minimum wage in Saskatchewan (it's different in every province), and I looked up the exchange rate and a Canadian dollar is worth about $1.09 Australian.

"Okay, this person is poor because they just don't want to work."?

many poor people work full time. the minimum wage in most countries doesn't raise people above the poverty line. are they lazy too?

"Okay, this person is poor because they just don't want to work."?

many poor people work full time. the minimum wage in most countries doesn't raise people above the poverty line. are they lazy too?

but on that note, i really do have to go. this page is starting to get buggy for me, and i'm just plain tired. if you wanna continue arguing, feel free to message me, i had fun.

I've just read five pages of "debate". The reasoned debate came only from those who consider the poor to be human.

All I can say is get ready for "The Decline and Fall of the American Empire", by George "Dubya" Bush.

The worst thing about it all is that the government in Oz wants to go down the same track. This nation once led the world in social policy. Now we risk becoming as self centred as the Yanks.

The measure of a civilised society is how it looks after its least fortunate citizens. Argue against that.

Here's a list I found here... http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/003704.html

I toss this one to the conservatives and Bush appologists here who talk shit about poor people like their some kind of cancer on society that actually choose to live the way they do, and don't have any idea what it's really like to be "poor", whether it's due to unearned wealth of an over indulgant family, or pure neuvo riche greed. (highlights by me)
"
As a conservative who was born into poverty, raised in poverty, and is now doing fine, all without having ever taken a dime of welfare, unemployment, or any handouts, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

It's all about making your own opportunities. And not feeling down on yourself, and not letting some liberal douchbag tell me it's okay to be poor, it's not my fault, it will be okay.

Try again when you have some facts.

By the way, in the slummy housing that I grew up in, the vast majority of those that lived around me were lazy, and were broke from the middle of the month, until the end. They waited on their checks, then cashed them and went to buy booze. They traded their food stamps for pennies on the dollar so they could go to the bar, and so they could buy cigarettes. They sold their kids clothes and toys to get money for drugs. And it was not because they had no opportunities.

Being a hypocrite is whining about the plight of the poor while you sit in your air conditioned house, wasting power and energy on a message board that will, in the long and short run, mean aboslutely nothing to anyone.

Well, I thought it was funny too.

As a conservative who was born into poverty, raised in poverty, and is now doing fine, all without having ever taken a dime of welfare, unemployment, or any handouts, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

It's all about making your own opportunities. And not feeling down on yourself, and not letting some liberal douchbag tell me it's okay to be poor, it's not my fault, it will be okay.

Try again when you have some facts.

By the way, in the slummy housing that I grew up in, the vast majority of those that lived around me were lazy, and were broke from the middle of the month, until the end. They waited on their checks, then cashed them and went to buy booze. They traded their food stamps for pennies on the dollar so they could go to the bar, and so they could buy cigarettes. They sold their kids clothes and toys to get money for drugs. And it was not because they had no opportunities.


Hey hey Stinky! Glad to see you sleeze in on this one. (BTW as I noted on another thread, head cheese is neither "stinky" nor cheese) What broad bristles you paint with, the only thing you forgot to mention was the crack pipe burns you saw on the "vast majority" of your neighbor's lips as well.

Don't think you have "one up" on anyone because you grew up the same way I did. The fact that it hardened you to the human tragedy in those places is the saddest thing of all. You are now willing to leave others who are now living like you once did in the proverbial dust, and that is utterly despicable. Shame on you!

As republican, mind you a very conservative one, I can certainly say that I have experienced not being poor, but knowing what it's like to have no a/c worry about food and water, and even though it was for 2 1/2 weeks during a hurricane season, I know personally that Bush doesnt always represent my ideals, I can assure you that. Many conservatives and republicans feel the same way, but can you honestly prove Kerry or someone else would have been able to stop this issue? They had 4 days, and yes, they're poor, we should have provided transportation or evacuation measures. It;s all done now, all we can do is look to the future and try to prevent this another time. Bitching about Bush wont help, the situation, really. JOin the Army Corps of Engineers, and start coming up with stuff to make these things more preventable. Yes, the rich can be condescending, I've met Trump, and Ive had the fortune of meeting Bush at a Rally here in florida last year, they are all condescending, but describing what its like to be poor doesnt mean shit to anyone. We've all seen spike lee movies, news stories from the Ghetto, hell, I grew up in the ghetto, I lived it, ive seen people stabbed over five dollars at school. Prove Bush wrong then, give up what your doing right now, and go and organise a fund at school or something.

Can I just ask a question, what is the minimum wage in America, also what is the price of a Big Mac. (I need something to compare to)

BTW if anyone's interested the minimum wage in Australia is $12.74 Australian.

As of June, the average price of a Big Mac in the U.S. was $3.06 including tax

---

Using the almighty Wikipedia, here's a little info on minimum wage, assuming
a 40 hour work week. All currencies are converted into U.S. dollars, just to make things easier.

Australia - $9.05 per hour

U.K. - $8.53 per hour (22 years of age and older, ranges from $5.27 to $7.21 per hour for those 21 and younger)

Canada - Ranges from $5.15 to $7.00 per hour, depending on province

U.S. - Federal Minimum wage is $5.15 per hour. Just under half of the states have enacted state minimum wage regulations, making the range in the U.S. from $5.15 (27 states) to $7.35 (Washington state)

I'm personally kind of suprised that the U.S. and Canada's minimum wages are so similar, but then again the economies of the two nations are very much linked.

In my high-school class I was preaching about the suffering and horrors that engulfed the world outside of the United States. I was interrupted by a smart friend of mine who asked this question, and I could give no response at the moment:

How will understanding the suffering other people go through make me a better person?

I tend to agree, hearing and seeing rape, murder, starvation and then being forced to understandthat suffering is such a horrible condemnation. I'm more than willing to help if I can, but to be introduced to these concepts let aloen try and understand is unhealthy.

In my high-school class I was preaching about the suffering and horrors that engulfed the world outside of the United States. I was interrupted by a smart friend of mine who asked this question, and I could give no response at the moment:

How will understanding the suffering other people go through make me a better person?

I tend to agree, hearing and seeing rape, murder, starvation and then being forced to understandthat suffering is such a horrible condemnation. I'm more than willing to help if I can, but to be introduced to these concepts let aloen try and understand is unhealthy.

I'm afraid you're showing your age. An appreciation of the problems facing the rest of the planet can only be enlightening, NOT unhealthy. Ignore the rest of the world at your own peril.

One of the main critiscisms of the US is that, generally, they have no concept of other countries and their values. I'm Australian. It's amazing how many Americans think I'm from Austria and I speak "good English". A recent UN survey of high school students worldwide ranked the US at the bottom of the tree when came to even knowing where some countries were on the map!

A cursory glance at American history just reinforces this observation. America went into Vietnam without having any apparent knowledge of Vietnamese history. They had been fighting for their independence for 1000 years, usually against China, then the French and eventually America. Dubya has gone into Iraq enveloped in the same fog.

I despair for a country that alienates a large section of its population because they are not and probably have no chance of being, fortune seekers.

I'm afraid you're showing your age. An appreciation of the problems facing the rest of the planet can only be enlightening, NOT unhealthy. Ignore the rest of the world at your own peril.

One of the main critiscisms of the US is that, generally, they have no concept of other countries and their values. I'm Australian. It's amazing how many Americans think I'm from Austria and I speak "good English". A recent UN survey of high school students worldwide ranked the US at the bottom of the tree when came to even knowing where some countries were on the map!

A cursory glance at American history just reinforces this observation. America went into Vietnam without having any apparent knowledge of Vietnamese history. They had been fighting for their independence for 1000 years, usually against China, then the French and eventually America. Dubya has gone into Iraq enveloped in the same fog.

I despair for a country that alienates a large section of its population because they are not and probably have no chance of being, fortune seekers.


I never said to ignore the plight of those suffering, and I know Australians don't speak "Austrian" We're not all idiots here. My argument is against those people who insist that the only way I could do them any good is to "go thorugh" what they have, to "understand" their suffering.

You mock us for our education, we didn't have a choice. Knowing geology does not make money Welcome to the USA

You mock us for our education, we didn't have a choice. Knowing geology does not make money Welcome to the USA

Geology?

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
-Mark Twain

Meaning, don't blame the system for a lack of education; we all have a choice in how much we learn. But sure, throwing money at the problem won't solve it. We need to change kids' additudes about it; there is no sense of shame in being ignorant.

Being a hypocrite is whining about the plight of the poor while you sit in your air conditioned house, wasting power and energy on a message board that will, in the long and short run, mean aboslutely nothing to anyone.
Yes, because if you ignore the poor they'll go away, right?

Any large scale "aiding" of the poor requires a redistribution of wealth, which is tantamount to Communism.

Earth. You?
A modest redistribution of wealth through taxation is not communism.

Any large scale "aiding" of the poor requires a redistribution of wealth, which is tantamount to Communism.

Earth. You? Wow, I live in a communist country. And my neighbouring countries are even more communist. The EU is obviously Comintern. :rolleyes: x10

Yes, aiding of the poor is a good idea within reason, and believe it or not, many of us are endowed with a smidgeon of reason… enough welfare to give them a chance at a future. It really isn't too much to ask… ask yourself, who needs the money more - the CEOs/upper class, or the guy who works hard but wasn't born into the right family? Call it a "necessary evil" if you like.

Coming from a middle class person.

Yes, because if you ignore the poor they'll go away, right?
I their plight is as terrible as you say, than by ignoring them we let them starve and die in some quiet corner of a basement (because everyone that starves does so in a basement, that's just the way cliches are).
I don't know how mch farther away they can get than dead off hand.
Trims down on the surplus population, doesn't it?

I their plight is as terrible as you say, than by ignoring them we let them starve and die in some quiet corner of a basement (because everyone that starves does so in a basement, that's just the way cliches are).
I don't know how mch farther away they can get than dead off hand.
Trims down on the surplus population, doesn't it? No, that's unjust and unfair. A better and fairer way is to just axe a random passer-by to death every so often. Let's not pick on the disadvantaged: "he brings the rain on the evil and the good"

Geology?

Ughh, cartography, happy?

Geology?

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
-Mark Twain

Meaning, don't blame the system for a lack of education; we all have a choice in how much we learn. But sure, throwing money at the problem won't solve it. We need to change kids' additudes about it; there is no sense of shame in being ignorant.

It is the will behind American education that makes us scorned by the rest of the world. In capitalist society, there is no practical application within the system for subjects that make no products. All one can do with a philosophy major is become a philosophy proffesor, if you're lucky. Otherwise, the youth are drawn to the overwhelming bribes of fancy cars and wealthy living, all of which are only accessible if you get an education that allows you to have a "good job." This is the spirit, the attitude of education, I know, I teach. It starts at an extremely young age, and to change it would mean nearly overthrowing the entire capitalist ideology. Off topic. irrelevant, start new thread, I know...

As of June, the average price of a Big Mac in the U.S. was $3.06 including tax

---

Using the almighty Wikipedia, here's a little info on minimum wage, assuming
a 40 hour work week. All currencies are converted into U.S. dollars, just to make things easier.

Australia - $9.05 per hour

U.K. - $8.53 per hour (22 years of age and older, ranges from $5.27 to $7.21 per hour for those 21 and younger)

Canada - Ranges from $5.15 to $7.00 per hour, depending on province

U.S. - Federal Minimum wage is $5.15 per hour. Just under half of the states have enacted state minimum wage regulations, making the range in the U.S. from $5.15 (27 states) to $7.35 (Washington state)

I'm personally kind of suprised that the U.S. and Canada's minimum wages are so similar, but then again the economies of the two nations are very much linked.

Larger list (Alphabetical):

Australia
AUD 484.40 (US$362) per week; most workers receive higher wages through enterprise agreements or individual contracts

Austria
none by law; instead, nationwide collective bargaining agreements set minimum wages by job classification for each industry; the accepted unofficial annual minimum wage is €10,000 to €11,000 (US$12,066 to US$13,272)

Belgium
€1,243 (US$1,500) a month for workers over 21 years of age; 18-year-olds must be paid at least 82 percent of the minimum, 19-year-olds 88 percent, and 20-year-olds 94 percent of the minimum. '

Brazil
R$300 (US$128) a month; annually adjusted by the government

Bulgaria
150 leva (US$93) per month

Canada
set by each province and territory; hourly wages vary from CAN$6.25 to CAN$8.50; British Columbua has an "entry level" minimum wage rate for the first 500 hours worked which is lower than the regular minimum wage; see List of minimum wages in Canada

Chile
starting July 1, 2005, 127,500 pesos (US$218) per month for those aged 18–65; 95,927 pesos (US$164) for those younger than 18 and for those older than 65; and 82,889 pesos (US$142) for honorary payments; starting July 1, 2006, 135,000 (US$231); 101,491 (US$174); and 87,697 pesos (US$150), respectively (Chilean Law 20,039 [5])

Cuba
225 pesos (US$243) per month as of International Labor Day, 2005, increased from 100 pesos per month previously.

China
none

Denmark
none by law, but national labor agreements effectively set a wage floor; the average net wage including pension benefits of adult workers in 2003 was 177 kroner (US$29) per hour

Finland
€5.39 (US$6.50) per hour or €926.40 (US$1,118) per month, except where collective bargaining agreements have negotiated higher sector-specific minimum wages (anywhere from €1,000 to over €2,000)

France
€7.61 (US$9.18) per hour

Germany
none by law (but in discussion); set by collective bargaining agreements

Greece
€28 (US$34) daily and €616 (US$743) monthly; set by the GSEE and the Employers' Association through collective bargaining and routinely ratified by the Ministry of Labor

Hong Kong
none

Hungary
53,000 HUF (US$259) per month; set by the IRC through agreement among its participants, representatives of the Government, employers, and employees

Israel
Above age 18: 47.5% of the average income on 1 April of each year. In 2005: 3335.18 NIS (approx US$732.04) per month. Under age 18, varies.

Italy
none by law; instead set by a collective bargaining agreements on a sector-by-sector basis; when an employer and a union fail to reach an agreement, courts may determine fair wages on the basis of practice in comparable activities, although this rarely occurs in practice

Ireland
€7.65 (US$8) per hour

Luxembourg
varies according to the worker's age and number of dependents; for a single worker over the age of 18 is €1,403 (US$1,693) per month for unskilled workers, and €1,684 (US$2,032) per month for skilled workers

Netherlands
€1,249.20 (US$1,507.15) per month plus 8% holiday allowance, summing to €1,349.14 (US$1,627.84) (the amount is less for those 22 years old or younger)

New Zealand
NZ$9.50 (US$6.45) per hour for workers 18 years old or older, and NZ$7.60 (US$5.16) per hour for those aged 16 or 17. (Increased to these levels on 21 March 2005).

Portugal
€374.70 (US$452.11) per month; covers full-time workers as well as rural workers and domestic employees ages 18 and over

Poland
824 PLN (US$243) per month

Russia
720 rubles (US$25) per month; to be raised to 800 rubles (US$28) from September 1, 2005, and to 1,100 rubles (US$38) from May 1, 2006 6%
Romania 330 RON (US$119) per month

Spain
€490.80 (US$592.19) per month

Sweden
none by law; set by collective bargaining contracts every year

Switzerland
none by law; it is normally 3,000 CHF (US$2,330) a month set by collective agreements

Turkey
444 YTL (US$332) per month; reviewed every 6 months by the Minimum Wage Commission, a tripartite government-industry-union body

United Kingdom
£4.85 (US$8.53) per hour for 22-year-olds and above (except those within the first six months of their job and receiving accredited training) (£5.05 from October 2005; £5.35 from October 2006)
£4.10 (US$7.21) per hour for 18-to-21-year-olds and those within the first six months of their job and receiving accredited training (£4.25 from October 2005; £4.45 from October 2006)
£3.00 (US$5.27) per hour for under-18s who have finished compulsory education
None for those who have not yet finished complusory education (the age when a person finishes compulsory education is either 15 or 16, depending on where their birthday falls in the school year)

United States
The federal minimum wage is $5.15 per hour, although workers under age 20 can be paid $4.25 an hour for their first 90 days. Some states also have minimum wage laws ranging from $2.00 in Oklahoma (for some jobs not covered by the federal rate), to $7.35 an hour in Washington. Some cities and counties have living wage ordinances of up to $15.00 an hour although the groups of workers it applies to are often limited. (29 USC Sec. 206) (OK Statutes 40-197.5) (Revised Code of Washington Sec. 49.46.020) [6]

Hmm, a heartless cruel conservative I wonder if I've been poor, let me see:

Being poor is knowing exactly how much everything costs.yep, been there, done that. couldn't afford the T-shirt though

Being poor is getting angry at your kids for asking for all the crap they see on TV.nope, would never even think of having kids if poor. Sex is a powerful drive but not that powerful. I do however know some non-poor people who have had the same experience so I wonder if it is truely part of the experience of being poor or part of the experience of being a parent

Being poor is having to keep buying $800 cars because they're what you can afford, and then having the cars break down on you, because there's not an $800 car in America that's worth a damn.hot damn, I remember when I got rich enough to afford an $800.00 dollar car and how proud I was. I remember not being able to afford a car at all and those 2 hour walks to and from work because bus fare was too much. Keep buying them though, nah you are better off buying 2x $400 cars so one is probably working and when you can manage it to buy a decent $2000 car, always keeping in mind Briton's 1st rule of economics (the bills will always expand to meet the avaible cash)

Being poor is hoping the toothache goes away.yep, and I can one up it. when the toothache doesn't go away and you actually do wind up going to the e-room for it (they cannot turn you away) and being sent to a dentist and making payments in dribs and drabs for 2 months until the receptionist at the densist's tells you he just doesn't want any more of your money.

Being poor is knowing your kid goes to friends' houses but never has friends over to yours..no kids

Being poor is going to the restroom before you get in the school lunch line so your friends will be ahead of you and won't hear you say "I get free lunch" when you get to the cashier..nope, cannot say

Being poor is living next to the freeway..been there, but the criteria for being really poor I think instead should be living in a place when the rent is collected on a weekly basis. Plenty of places poor folks live that aren't next to the freeway and plenty of places next to the freeway where poor folks could never afford to live.

Being poor is coming back to the car with your children in the back seat, clutching that box of Raisin Bran you just bought and trying to think of a way to make the kids understand that the box has to last..no kids. cannot really imagine it either. nearly all of the children of poor folks I've known have been all too aware of this

Being poor is wondering if your well-off sibling is lying when he says he doesn't mind when you ask for help..nope. it's just assumed that if they objected they'd be straightfard about it. Actually they have been.

Being poor is off-brand toys..LOL, I guess I grew up poor despite all the money my parents made.

Being poor is a heater in only one room of the house..a house for poor folks? erg, I've done the huddle arround the space heater thing, and for the most part my current house has only one room heated to a "reasonable" level. Lots of folks I know who aren't poor do this, no reason to heat empty rooms.

Being poor is knowing you can't leave $5 on the coffee table when your friends are around..hmm, when I had the least money this wasn't really a problem, leaving whatever cash I ha arround on the coffee table. It wasn;t as if they didn't know how much I needed the money. This really only became a factor when it got to the point where I had "extra" money.

Being poor is hoping your kids don't have a growth spurt..no kids. recall praying that my shoes would hold together for a few more months though.

Being poor is stealing meat from the store, frying it up before your mom gets home and then telling her she doesn't have make dinner tonight because you're not hungry anyway..nope, wasn't a poor kid though

Being poor is Goodwill underwear..ah yes. funny but growing up we had second hand underwear, so I'd rather do without than wear second hand stuff now.

Being poor is not enough space for everyone who lives with you..heck, I've had that problem when I was well off.

Being poor is feeling the glued soles tear off your supermarket shoes when you run around the playground..if I wasted money like that I probably would still be poor. I learnedas a child that some things are worth paying more for and it is better to suffer without long enough to be able to afford quality, and shoes are one of those things.

Being poor is your kid's school being the one with the 15-year-old textbooks and no air conditioning..well my old school still has no AC but the textbooks are pretty modern. Once again I've known some pretty well to do people who meet this criteria.

Being poor is thinking $8 an hour is a really good deal..it is and can be. You would be truely amazed at the difference going from $6.50/hour to $8.00/hour can make. Of course it isn't really until you hit $10.00/hour that you get to the point where there is actually anything resembling "extra" cash.

Being poor is relying on people who don't give a damn about you..nope, wouldn't know

Being poor is an overnight shift under florescent lights..hmm, does that mean I occasionally drop back to being poor? the overnight shift is one of the bast ways I have found to stop being poor.

Being poor is finding the letter your mom wrote to your dad, begging him for the child support..nope

Being poor is a bathtub you have to empty into the toilet..cannot say I've every really experienced this. I have been without a bathtub though, and I have had the toilet wired together with a piece of coathanger.

Being poor is stopping the car to take a lamp from a stranger's trash..still do that.

Being poor is making lunch for your kid when a cockroach skitters over the bread, and you looking over to see if your kid saw..no kids

Being poor is believing a GED actually makes a goddamned difference..still believe it. Having a GED is not good, but it makes a hell of a lot of difference over not having one.

Being poor is people angry at you just for walking around in the mall..never noticed when I had little money. then again I didn'tspend much time at the mall when I had little money, couldn't afford anything there. On a few really hot days (maybe 4 times) I spent a few hours in the AC there, but didn't notice anyone getting upset about it

Being poor is not taking the job because you can't find someone you trust to watch your kids..no kids.

Being poor is the police busting into the apartment right next to yours..has happened to me even when I have had money.

Being poor is not talking to that girl because she'll probably just laugh at your clothes..nope

Being poor is hoping you'll be invited for dinner..been there, done that.

Being poor is a sidewalk with lots of brown glass on it..lived there too

Being poor is people thinking they know something about you by the way you talk..heck, people do that all the time to everyone

Being poor is needing that 35-cent raise..yep, and having that 15 cent raise mean something.

Being poor is your kid's teacher assuming you don't have any books in your home..no kids

Being poor is six dollars short on the utility bill and no way to close the gap..been there, and the whole gathering change to walk to the supermarket to pay part of the bill route

Being poor is crying when you drop the mac and cheese on the floor..nope. ate the rice off the floor though.

Being poor is knowing you work as hard as anyone, anywhere..nope, never been that egotisitical. The jobs where I've worked hardest I have never had when I had little money.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you're not actually stupid..cannot say I've ever experienced that. Whether or not it is because I am actually stupid or because people do not assume I am is a whole different question.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you're not actually lazy..well, I am kinda lazy. I cannot recall people being surprised by it too often.

Being poor is a six-hour wait in an emergency room with a sick child asleep on your lap..not my kid, but I've been there

Being poor is never buying anything someone else hasn't bought first..even when I had the least money this wasn't true. I did however grow up with a predominance of pre-owned items so have no real problem with this (except for underwear and socks), it is just that somethings do not come though well to be bought 2nd hand

Being poor is picking the 10 cent ramen instead of the 12 cent ramen because that's two extra packages for every dollar..ramen's gotten cheaper. I have been to the point of weighing individual pieces of fruit because I could only afford the smallest one or when sold by count weighing to get the heaviest one though

Being poor is having to live with choices you didn't know you made when you were 14 years old..that's life for all of us

Being poor is getting tired of people wanting you to be grateful..never really noticed this one.

Being poor is knowing you're being judged..nope, at least no more so than any other time in my life

Being poor is a box of crayons and a $1 coloring book from a community center Santa..no kids, didn't grow up poor.

Being poor is checking the coin return slot of every soda machine you go by..nope. might be a question of time though, no soda machine I went by when I had little money had any change I'm pretty sure.

Being poor is deciding that it's all right to base a relationship on shelter..yep, but I've know pretty well off people do the same thing

Being poor is knowing you really shouldn't spend that buck on a Lotto ticket..nope. If I actually spent that dollar on a lotto ticket I probably would still have little money though. In truth, there really is a point above total poverty where you should spend that dollar on a lotto ticket

Being poor is hoping the register lady will spot you the dime..nope, no matter how little cash I have if I bring it tho the register, I am damn well gonna have the cash for it

Being poor is feeling helpless when your child makes the same mistakes you did, and won't listen to you beg them against doing so..no kids. sorta think this is all about being a parent anyway

Being poor is a cough that doesn't go away..nope, never had one of those

Being poor is making sure you don't spill on the couch, just in case you have to give it back before the lease is up..nope, the only time I got roped into leased furniture I was glad to spill on it before they repoed it

Being poor is a $200 paycheck advance from a company that takes $250 when the paycheck comes in..and that's how people stay poor. I've seen too much of that cycle ever to get started on it

Being poor is four years of night classes for an Associates of Art degree..hmm, I guess so. is nice to see people working hard to get out of being poor

Being poor is a lumpy futon bed..I prefer futons meself, and poor is really an old matress on the floor with no boxspring.

Being poor is knowing where the shelter is..never experienced that when I had little money.

Being poor is people who have never been poor wondering why you choose to be so..well sure. of course I chose not to be so and am no longer so

Being poor is knowing how hard it is to stop being poor..guess I'm not poor. Mind you it is not easy to not be poor, but it certainly is not impossible.

Being poor is seeing how few options you have..yep. one of the worse parts of the deal.

Being poor is running in place..nope. Oh for a while there it was running as fast as possible and losing ground when moving at all, but after a while you get to move ahead. It is a rough game, to not lose too much and give up while waiting for the chance to move ahead, but not impossible.

Being poor is people wondering why you didn't leave..Never really had that, although I imagine if I were still with little cash people would wonder that.

I don't know, was I ever poor? Heck by many standards, I am poor right now, although I consider myself comfortable. DO I have the right to say that poor folks don't have to remain poor? Or does someone who has never been poor have the right to say that poor people do have to remain poor?

Canada - Ranges from $5.15 to $7.00 per hour, depending on province
I live in Ontario and it's $7.45 and increasing every February.

If there's a group of people I can't stand, it's well off people who have never been through anything in their life and consider people who are struggling to live to be lazy, when in fact they are still living off mommy and daddy and never had a bigger worry than where the paintings in their new house will be hung.

Ughh, cartography, happy?

Cartography?

Cartography?

The study of maps, was being told Americans do not know much about world outside their borders. Whatever, forgot what my point was.

The study of maps, was being told Americans do not know much about world outside their borders. Whatever, forgot what my point was.

Cartography is the making of maps. Geography would be the awareness of the location of Austria, Australia, or Japan.

many poor people work full time. the minimum wage in most countries doesn't raise people above the poverty line. are they lazy too?

$600/month is slightly more than the average wage in Slovakia. Is most of Slovakia impoverished? No.

What's the poverty line? Which countries?

Right now, there are more millionaires than ever in history, and the standard of living on a planetary basis is higher than ever.

A modest redistribution of wealth through taxation is not communism.

Heya DC.

Please explain how. In all these pages, and for all the time's I've asked, no one has said how this will be achieved without taking from A to give away to B. Which is Communism.

That you're using "taxes" as a vehicle doesn't make it not.

Wow, I live in a communist country. And my neighbouring countries are even more communist. The EU is obviously Comintern. :rolleyes: x10

Yes, aiding of the poor is a good idea within reason, and believe it or not, many of us are endowed with a smidgeon of reason… enough welfare to give them a chance at a future. It really isn't too much to ask… ask yourself, who needs the money more - the CEOs/upper class, or the guy who works hard but wasn't born into the right family? Call it a "necessary evil" if you like.

Coming from a middle class person.

Oy vey. :rolleyes:
Ask I keep asking... HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH??? NO ONE HAS ANSWERED THIS FOR 7 PAGES.

The US already has food, housing and schooling assistance programs. The bottom 50% of the taxpayers pay 4% of the taxes. What is it to "aid the poor within reason"?!?

I used to earn Rm3.50 an hour at McD's. Thats nearly a 1USD an hour. :) It was enough.

How much is enough? It depends on the individual. You'll have super rich buggers wanting more, and poor people content at where they are as long as their stomach is full, shelter on their head, and kids can go to school and make a better future for themselves. Just make sure you dont' have too many kids to kill yourselves.

So now that you've posted 'what it means to be poor', or really just a list of a bunch of 'thoughts' by a bunch of idiots about 'what it means to be poor'. Lets look at what it does mean to be 'poor', or, you know, below the poverty line.

The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:

* Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
* Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
* Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
* Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
* Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
* Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
* Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

For more information, http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm

Cartography is the making of maps. Geography would be the awareness of the location of Austria, Australia, or Japan.

And then there was this other foreigner who told me us Americans didn't even know our "ographies" What's up with that?

Being poor is relying on people who don't give a damn about you.
Being poor is knowing you work as hard as anyone, anywhere.
Being poor is people surprised to discover you're not actually stupid.
Being poor is people surprised to discover you're not actually lazy.
Being poor is getting tired of people wanting you to be grateful.
Being poor is people who have never been poor wondering why you choose to be so.
Being poor is people wondering why you didn't leave."
there is absolutely no reasone that anyone could starve! there is food everywhere, people are just 'conditioned' in most countries to find it disgusting. there is absolutely no excuse to being poor. if anyone is poor, they rightly desearve to be. you may have listed things of what it's like to be poor, but most of them are utterly false(specifically the ones i've quoted) and any of them that aren't are easily worked around. if one has no shelter, one can build one(i've built my own and slept in them for weeks with no problems, the only reasone i'd gone back was due to my parents not letting my stay there when i was a kid, and now due to school. i'll likely be building my own house to live in when i'm able to and living there. :p ) food such as some mushrooms or worms or certian inner barks or trees(such as even maple) are very common and not hard to get or prepare. you people should really make survival manditorily learned, that could have solved so many problems, such as much of the things happening in new orleans(how to get clean water and such), or people being poor(that would also need to be allong with getting them to actually work, as if they actually searched a little they could easily find a good job(helping moving companies, for example, as discussed in a thread 'long time ago.))

So now that you've posted 'what it means to be poor', or really just a list of a bunch of 'thoughts' by a bunch of idiots about 'what it means to be poor'. Lets look at what it does mean to be 'poor', or, you know, below the poverty line.

The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:

* Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
* Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
* Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
* Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
* Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
* Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
* Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

For more information, http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm

Thanks a mint for this, it sheds a lot of light on the issue that a lot of people probably had never realized. For all the capitalism-bashing that goes on on this site, these particular facts are often overlooked by pinko nutjobs who insist that capitalism creates poverty on a massive, socially debilitating scale.

Say what you will about the statistics themselves: I'm not particularly interested in them. But one cannot deny that the average American poor man is much better off than any other on any continent on any country.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, pinkos.

I make $18 an hour, it's not enough, trust me.

The United Satates has spent 6 trillion dollars since 1964 when Johnson initiated his "New Society " program on the war against poverty . Thats 6 trillion dollars of wealth transfered from the middle class and rich to the poor .
What have we got for our money ?

http://www.heartland.org/PolicyBotTopic.cfm?artTopic=359

http://www.fair.org/extra/9901/rector.html
thats the liberal rebuttal .

This is how the UN defines "poor "

"a condition characterised by severe deprivation of basic human needs." The UN statement defined anyone lacking three or more of the following items as living in absolute poverty: food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and access to social security benefits


who in America meets this standard ? Is there anyone ?

The United Satates has spent 6 trillion dollars since 1964 when Johnson initiated his "New Society " program on the war against poverty . Thats 6 trillion dollars of wealth transfered from the middle class and rich to the poor .
What have we got for our money ?

http://www.heartland.org/PolicyBotTopic.cfm?artTopic=359

http://www.fair.org/extra/9901/rector.html
thats the liberal rebuttal .

This is how the UN defines "poor "



who in America meets this standard ? Is there anyone ?
That's how the UN defines poverty. Surely a Western nation doesn't need too wait until it's people are eligable for World Vision support before they act? Surely we hold ourselves to a higher standard of care then that?

Ugh. Don't be ignorant. I grew up incredibly poor. My father abandoned my mother and me when I was young. We never had health or dental insurance and I couldn't even afford new school clothes most of the time. We were constantly in debt. My father never even paid his court-ordered child support. Yeah, guess what - my mom and I are both libertarians. I don't bitch at the poor. I know what it's like to be poor. But excuse me if I think the government doesn't have a right to STEAL from people through taxation to give money to others. My ideology has nothing to do with my personal feelings about poor people and it's certainly not self-serving since I'm usually broke and I owe more money than I want to admit on my college loans. I'm also trying to remain respectful, but I am so goddamn TIRED of being called selfish and mean spirited and whatever else because I don't think it's all right to invoke the full force of our nanny state--especially when there's no ethical or constitutional basis--whenever there's some problem in society.
Amen, and Ditto.
While my father never left us, I spent my childhood "underpriveleged" as well, getting food from food banks, and basicly living the OP's list. Waah. Life sucks sometimes - even when you work hard and do everything right. Guess what? I make less per year than my undergrad loan principal, drive a 10 year old car and don't have cable/satelite TV. (my dialup ISP costs a whopping $5/mo) I'm a hell of a lot better off than most "poor" people in my neighborhood (who make the same amount or more than I do) because I take good choices with my resources. (Of course, you can't tell them that buying low profile wheels for thir pimped-out boom car is a bad idea... or that you don't need Nikes, or that Ciggs, Booze, Cable, Cell Phones and Bling really cuts into a food budget... that would be elitist of me... :rolleyes: )

Will I ever be "rich"? No. Hell, I'll be lucky (and happy) to ever make "middle class" - financially anyway. Funny thing is, even making less than $17,000/yr with good budget practices my wife and I can still save enough to take a 10 day road trip to Minneapolis - even with petrol at $3+/gal.

Sure, circumstance can play a big roll in Poverty - but personal action and responsibility plays a bigger roll in how much it impacts your life.

Here's a list I found here... http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/003704.html

I toss this one to the conservatives and Bush appologists here who talk shit about poor people like their some kind of cancer on society that actually choose to live the way they do, and don't have any idea what it's really like to be "poor", whether it's due to unearned wealth of an over indulgant family, or pure neuvo riche greed. (highlights by me)
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you forgot several..

Being poor is everyone telling you daily how bad you've got it.

Being poor is having government agencies trying to give you handouts while failling to encourage you to better yourself.

Being poor in America is one of the few countries in the world where it dosn't have to be a constant throughout your life.

Being poor is being told your going to stay that way, when the reality is, it dosn't have to be...

Poverty in the US, or any country runing a capitalist market, is going to be a reality. Instead of telling the impoverish how bad they have it, instead of giving them mindless handouts, you should be encouraging them to pick themselves out of their position... instead of offering welfare, we should be offering discounted or free education. And many love to tout the poverty rates, while they fail to realize poverty in america is not a constant, in that those impoverished this year are nessesarily there next year. This is unlike most european nations, where if born into poverty there is a very good chance, you will stay there. Instead of wasting money on inefficent ineffective government policies which usually dosn't even reach the people its trying to target, we should be focusing our efforts on education, as this is the key to making yourself compeditive and rising from poverty! Its not about how many programs you have, but how effectivly they work... this is something i have found Democratic legislators fail to grasp (working in government myself)

... By the way I find it humerous you would name overindulgence as a cause for the impoverished... As overindulgence is the norm for American families and most middle class families in the western world, possibly yours included.
Ever buy the nike shoes, the wallmark shirts, the banana republic (if you could afford it) suits, the chicita banana bananas..., coffee, etc.. have you ever whined for lower prices. You help poverty grow everyday

Being really poor. (http://zigzackly.blogspot.com/2005/09/being-poor-my-arse.html)

you forgot several..

Being poor is everyone telling you daily how bad you've got it.

Being poor is having government agencies trying to give you handouts while failling to encourage you to better yourself.

Being poor in America is one of the few countries in the world where it dosn't have to be a constant throughout your life.

Being poor is being told your going to stay that way, when the reality is, it dosn't have to be...

Poverty in the US, or any country runing a capitalist market, is going to be a reality. Instead of telling the impoverish how bad they have it, instead of giving them mindless handouts, you should be encouraging them to pick themselves out of their position... instead of offering welfare, we should be offering discounted or free education. And many love to tout the poverty rates, while they fail to realize poverty in america is not a constant, in that those impoverished this year are nessesarily there next year. This is unlike most european nations, where if born into poverty there is a very good chance, you will stay there. Instead of wasting money on inefficent ineffective government policies which usually dosn't even reach the people its trying to target, we should be focusing our efforts on education, as this is the key to making yourself compeditive and rising from poverty! Its not about how many programs you have, but how effectivly they work... this is something i have found Democratic legislators fail to grasp (working in government myself)
oh cos its so easy to work or learn your way out of poverty when you're already working 24/7 just to keep food on the table :rolleyes:

once you're in poverty, thats where you stay (or at least most do)... and unless you've been there or seen it, you probably won't get how hard it is to climb back out the debt pit...

oh cos its so easy to work or learn your way out of poverty when you're already working 24/7 just to keep food on the table :rolleyes:

once you're in poverty, thats where you stay (or at least most do)... and unless you've been there or seen it, you probably won't get how hard it is to climb back out the debt pit...


No, i didn't say it was so easy, and would never suggest it. But life isn't easy, and if your impoverished and you want an easier life, that is the burden you must take on. In this country we put so much emphasis on feeling bad for yourself we forget the power of motivation and the need for it. And in this country, contrary to what you suggest, poverty is a dynamic system. People who fall into poverty, or born into it, aren't nessesarly stuck there. You can be in poverty, one, two, three years and then work out of it. Those faimlies in poverty for one year are not nessesarly the same ones there the next. This is evident by the ever fluxuating level of impoverished.. which after review may look far less concerning then some have made it out to be.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html

Being really poor. (http://zigzackly.blogspot.com/2005/09/being-poor-my-arse.html)

This is most true... what we in America today BELIVE poverty is, is hardly how the rest of the world knows it to be. Which is why I put so much empahsis on the fact that poverty within this nation is very surviable and not something inescapable.

There is little doubt those living in true poverty are trapped in that socio economic position, only explemplfying this is the culture surrounding that poverty which allows so little socioeconomic movement. Few in this country could ever image what true poverty is, even many of those you claim to be impoverished today (In america).

Being really poor. (http://zigzackly.blogspot.com/2005/09/being-poor-my-arse.html)
Yep. And the funny thing is, many of the people in that condition wouldn't even consider themselves to be poor because that's how everyone except the Government lives.

I do agree that Americans have a very distorted vision of "poor".

I'm not poor, I just don't have money for luxuries.

oh cos its so easy to work or learn your way out of poverty when you're already working 24/7 just to keep food on the table :rolleyes:

once you're in poverty, thats where you stay (or at least most do)... and unless you've been there or seen it, you probably won't get how hard it is to climb back out the debt pit...

No, it's not easy, but everyone in my family of five kids did or had an opportunity to. I worked three jobs in high school, joined the military as soon as I graduated and worked over a hundred hours a week until I was 22 when I cut it to only 50 so I would have time to go to college full-time. But I'm not poor anymore. In fact, I would probably be considered to be in the upper class.

My sister lives pretty damn well and she got pregnant at 16 and never finished high school. She would certainly be considered middle class. She has two children and lives with the father. She has very serious medical problems, but they would still be considered middle class.

My other sister is married and both she and her husband are working class (she's a certified nursing assistant, he's a cable repairman). They have two children and own their own home. They do pretty well.

My oldest brother is having his third child, is happily married and used to be a day trader. He actually turned that life down to start mowing lawns because he felt like a lifestyle chasing money was killing him. He and his wife own their own home as well and also do pretty well.

My other older brother has had opportunity after opportunity thrown at him, but he has always turned it down for one reason or another. He has lost more jobs than I've had. He makes about 11,000/year now and he's 35. He has a son and pays the child support. His debt is in the middle five figure range.

My parents actually started doing pretty well once all of the children left home (well, not all, my brother lives with them). My father has a high school education and worked as a electronics technician until he got laid off for being too old. He's applying for work at Lowe's. My mother has two degrees and worked as a nurse until it was decided that she was also too old. Now she works as a nurse auditor. They own a nice house and two brand new cars. They do very well.

No one in my family has a degree higher than high school except for my mother and my sister-in-law, including myself. Yet, we all managed to pull ourselves out of fairly extreme poverty. We were lucky that we had a relatively decent high school in our area and that we lived in the suburbs rather than the inner city.

However, I think people need to realize that there are generally options for poor people in America with rare exception.

I think what people don't realize is that we make choices. We choose to have children early rather than waiting until we're in our late twenties or early thirties, becuase we want to be young when they are. We choose to wear Nkes instead of Skiffs and Levis instead of Wranglers. We choose to have a television in every room of our homes. We choose to have a nicer car when a reliable car will do. We choose to eat Kraft when the generic brand will do. Now is this every poor person in America? No, of course not. It certainly wasn't my family when I was poor.

However, what happened to the good old days when parents bought you a book instead of a video game (and BS that no poor people have video games)? What happened to the good old days when parents encouraged you to turn the TV off instead of using it as a babysitter?

As long as there are large number of 'poor' people out there who are exploiting the system or who have things that you shouldn't have when you are claiming to be poor and in need (nice rims, video game systems, multiple televisions, designer clothes, bumping systems, new cars, brand-name food, happy meals, etc), there will be people who use this as an excuse to ignore the poor.

And people say, "if I'm poor I'm no longer to eat at McDonald's or buy jewelry?"
I say, "Yes, you are, but then you don't deserve to receive any money from the government."

Every dollar a person wastes that is on the government dole is a dollar that was not deserved. If you can afford jewelry then you can afford to pay for your own food. If you can afford to eat at McDonald's twice a week then you can afford to pay for your own heating. If you can afford Levis then you can afford medical insurance.

And if anyone is wondering these are all examples of friends of mine that never made it out of the place I live. The majority of the people I grew up with are still living in that same community. And people like them really upset me, because they make it so people don't see the truly impovershed, the people who are truly looking for a hand up and not a hand out, the people who deserve our help in their time of need and our respect for their strength and fortitude in adversity. That's why every penny I make that I give to the poor goes to the poor in other countries where the average citizen lives in conditions that make our (the US) homeless people look like Bill Gates.

The above precedent implies in fairly evident fashion that the plight of the poor is generally, of their own volition or implication. It is remarkably easy to under quantify quite the amount of aid, academic, financial and social, that is proffered to the poor and squandered upon frivloities, and used in an irresponsible manner, at the expense of the upper and middle classes, who, since they can finacially support themselves, are disregarded as unworthy of any further attention.

It amuses me that we Americans need a list like this to remind us of what poor is. And yet some people claim there is a giant unwashed horde of poor people in this country who obviously wouldn't need a list like this to understand it. Apparently we're not a nation of oppressed proles after all.

Also, this list could easily also describe the philosophy of a stingy miser with a cynical attitude.

The above precedent implies in fairly evident fashion that the plight of the poor is generally, of their own volition or implication. It is remarkably easy to under quantify quite the amount of aid, academic, financial and social, that is proffered to the poor and squandered upon frivloities, and used in an irresponsible manner, at the expense of the upper and middle classes, who, since they can finacially support themselves, are disregarded as unworthy of any further attention.

Oh, don't get me wrong. There is still plenty of evidence of a problem in this country. The rich that are being 'punished' by taxes have generally seen an increase in their average familial income (top one percent have seen their average familial income double) while the majority of Americans have seen familial incomes decrease steadily since the 1970's (the lowest 60% of wage-earners have seen a decrease in income even without accounting for inflation). That is a PROBLEM. We have seen an expansion of the middle class, but at the same time an expansion of the distance between the richest and the poorest in this country (which would be okay if the poor's incomes were increasing and the rich were just increasing faster).

This is how the UN defines "poor "

a condition characterised by severe deprivation of basic human needs." The UN statement defined anyone lacking three or more of the following items as living in absolute poverty: food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and access to social security benefits

who in America meets this standard ? Is there anyone ?
for the health shelter safe drinking water and food, noone in the entire world is lacking any of those except possibly those in the middle of a desert OR a person lacking the extremely basic and logical abilities to survive.

for the health shelter safe drinking water and food, noone in the entire world is lacking any of those except possibly those in the middle of a desert OR a person lacking the extremely basic and logical abilities to survive.

No-one lacks safe drinking water apart from possibly those in the middle of a desert? Seriously? I'm pretty sure a fairly large amount of people in third world countries don't have safe drinking water.

"40% of the world's inhabitants currently have insufficient fresh water for minimal hygiene. More than 2.2 million people died in 2000 from diseases related to the consumption of contaminated water or drought. In 2004, the UK charity WaterAid reported that a child dies every 15 seconds due to easily preventable water-related diseases."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water

No-one lacks safe drinking water apart from possibly those in the middle of a desert? Seriously? I'm pretty sure a fairly large amount of people in third world countries don't have safe drinking water.

"40% of the world's inhabitants currently have insufficient fresh water for minimal hygiene. More than 2.2 million people died in 2000 from diseases related to the consumption of contaminated water or drought. In 2004, the UK charity WaterAid reported that a child dies every 15 seconds due to easily preventable water-related diseases."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water
it's everywhere, it's just that sometimes people don't know how to get it and sometimes it's harder to get.
different things that can be done though are things like boiling the water with some sort of object over it to catch the water with and thus distilling it(good for places with lots of water but not much good water, such as what is happening in new orleans) or digging a pit near a bad water source to have the water go through the ground and be cleaned a bit(it's muddy water, but it's surprisingly much cleaner than the water that was in the polluted water near it)
or taking some sort of cloth(or even a hide of some furry animal, that works quite well, actually) and scraping up dew with it(doesn't get much water, but when you need water badly it works)
collecting rainwater, and saving it
animal and plant blood/sap
just boiling water regularly
melting ice(you'd be surprised how many people actually die due to dehydration in the tundra or during winter, even if it is needed to prevent heat loss one can still take a stick and make friction with another stick or just the ice, it's a slow proscess, but it does work.)
i'm not very skilled in the topic, but that's some basics.
and that second part proves what i'm saying! it's quite easy to cure the water, yet none of them seem to do it.

it's everywhere, it's just that sometimes people don't know how to get it and sometimes it's harder to get.
different things that can be done though are things like boiling the water with some sort of object over it to catch the water with and thus distilling it(good for places with lots of water but not much good water, such as what is happening in new orleans) or digging a pit near a bad water source to have the water go through the ground and be cleaned a bit(it's muddy water, but it's surprisingly much cleaner than the water that was in the polluted water near it)
or taking some sort of cloth(or even a hide of some furry animal, that works quite well, actually) and scraping up dew with it(doesn't get much water, but when you need water badly it works)
collecting rainwater, and saving it
animal and plant blood/sap
just boiling water regularly
melting ice(you'd be surprised how many people actually die due to dehydration in the tundra or during winter, even if it is needed to prevent heat loss one can still take a stick and make friction with another stick or just the ice, it's a slow proscess, but it does work.)
i'm not very skilled in the topic, but that's some basics.
and that second part proves what i'm saying! it's quite easy to cure the water, yet none of them seem to do it.

One, some water cannot be purified to potability (potable means safe for drinking). Two, the process is often times not simple at all. There are large humanitarian efforts to address this problem. In the military, there are units dedicated to the purification of water because it's difficult enough task that it can't be left to the soldier to do so. Your suggestion that only an idiot can be in a position to dye due to the unavailability of water is spurious on its face.

I toss this one to the conservatives and Bush appologists here who talk shit about poor people like their some kind of cancer on society that actually choose to live the way they do, and don't have any idea what it's really like to be "poor", whether it's due to unearned wealth of an over indulgant family, or pure neuvo riche greed.
Ok, that's it!

I've been called a "Bushie," a "neocon," a Bushite," and a "Bush apologist," as well as some terms for which I would be banned if I dared to even post them, much less use them in a reply.

Until I recently started getting my Social Security ( this last July ), something I paida small fortune into most of my adult life, I was living on my military retirement/disability pension of about $1,400/month. Out of this I had to pay for my mortgage ( about $640/month ), as well as electric, etc., etc, and hope for something left over so I could buy a bit of food. I have come to HATE Ramen Noodles!

Does that make me poor? Probably. Does that alter my political beliefs? Not that I'm aware of. So I don't wanna hear your nonsense about "hating the poor," or that I don't "have any idea what it's like to be 'poor!'"

There are millions more like me who think that being poor does NOT equal being a flaming leftist. One reason so many poor are still poor instead of trying to work their way out of it is that the frakking leftists in this Country have trained them to be dependent ( and, not so coincidentally, to always vote democrat ). Spare me the lecture!

Being a hypocrite is whining about the plight of the poor while you sit in your air conditioned house, wasting power and energy on a message board that will, in the long and short run, mean aboslutely nothing to anyone.Being poor is using the computer that your mum bought with the $10 000 she got when she cashed in her retirement fund and the internet that your grandmother pays for to educate yourself as best as you can, so that maybe someday you'll stop being so goddamned poor.
Don't presume to know anything about me, or my life, or my living conditions.
And I don't have air conditioning.

Until I recently started getting my Social Security ( this last July ), something I paida small fortune into most of my adult life, I was living on my military retirement/disability pension of about $1,400/month. Out of this I had to pay for my mortgage ( about $640/month ), as well as electric, etc., etc, and hope for something left over so I could buy a bit of food. I have come to HATE Ramen Noodles!

Does that make me poor? Probably. Does that alter my political beliefs? Not that I'm aware of. So I don't wanna hear your nonsense about "hating the poor," or that I don't "have any idea what it's like to be 'poor!'"Does that make you poor? Not even close. Sorry Forrest, but no, you don't have any idea what it's like to be poor.

Does that make you poor? Not even close. Sorry Forrest, but no, you don't have any idea what it's like to be poor.

You know little about the definition of poverty. Etrusca's income is well under the defined threshold.

Does that make you poor? Not even close. Sorry Forrest, but no, you don't have any idea what it's like to be poor.
Poverty has a pretty wide range, and includes a lot of factors. What is poor in North America, for example, is down right privileged in other places around the world.

If there's a group of people I can't stand, it's well off people who have never been through anything in their life and consider people who are struggling to live to be lazy, when in fact they are still living off mommy and daddy and never had a bigger worry than where the paintings in their new house will be hung.

If there's a group of people I can't stand, it's those "well-off" people who have never been through anything in their life, and yet bitch and moan about the plight of the poor without actually experiencing shit for themselves. They talk about all of these social welfare programs and redistributing wealth, but it's all talk that makes them feel high and noble. Because what do you think will happen when the time comes for them to give up all of their belongings to the poor? Think they'll give up all of their special interests for some high and mighty ideal, aye?

Considering the fact that my mother came here after fleeing from Russia with no belongings, I can say that I know what it feels like to be poor. And guess what, in America, you can do whatever you set your mind to.

Ok, that's it!

I've been called a "Bushie," a "neocon," a Bushite," and a "Bush apologist," as well as some terms for which I would be banned if I dared to even post them, much less use them in a reply.

Until I recently started getting my Social Security ( this last July ), something I paida small fortune into most of my adult life, I was living on my military retirement/disability pension of about $1,400/month. Out of this I had to pay for my mortgage ( about $640/month ), as well as electric, etc., etc, and hope for something left over so I could buy a bit of food. I have come to HATE Ramen Noodles!

Does that make me poor? Probably. Does that alter my political beliefs? Not that I'm aware of. So I don't wanna hear your nonsense about "hating the poor," or that I don't "have any idea what it's like to be 'poor!'"

There are millions more like me who think that being poor does NOT equal being a flaming leftist. One reason so many poor are still poor instead of trying to work their way out of it is that the frakking leftists in this Country have trained them to be dependent ( and, not so coincidentally, to always vote democrat ). Spare me the lecture!


Um, Eutrusca, I think you mis-read the original post.


I toss this one to the conservatives and Bush appologists here who talk shit about poor people like their some kind of cancer on society that actually choose to live the way they do, and don't have any idea what it's really like to be "poor", whether it's due to unearned wealth of an over indulgant family, or pure neuvo riche greed.

You are not one of those conservatives who talk shit about the poor. Thus, you are not one of the people Unabashed Greed is bashing. So you don't have to take offense.

You know little about the definition of poverty. Etrusca's income is well under the defined threshold.I never said that he was above the poverty line. Trust me, I know all about the poverty line. An extra $17000 a year would put my mother and I above the Canadian one. Poor (http://www.answers.com/poor&r=67) is defined as "Having little or no wealth and few or no possessions."
He has a mortgage, he therefore owns property, and is not poor.