NationStates Jolt Archive

On the whole, would you say the world has been gaining qualities, losing them or that it is just the same place?
For example, do you think that major events over the centuries indicate that the world is improving, or are more and more alarming (not necessarily as a thread to an End that is around the corner, maybe just as indicators that human nature is unreedemable, or unworthy, or whatever)? Or is it that, on the whole, events have no importance or nothing to teach us?

I'm not sure what you mean, but people's place in the world has definately improved over time. No more slavery, fewer fatal plagues, less famine, war is less common, as a species we're getting better.

"Edward Hallett Carr once suggested that Toynbee's cyclical theory of history was the characteristic view of a society in crisis, and others have noted that there is often a concern with collapse at times of distress."

- Joseph A Tainter, "The Collapse of Complex Societies"

In my life time I think things have gone down hill, but I have a pretty limited veiwpoint. I think mostly I am worried about some of the "new ideas" that seem to be floating around, if they catch on the world is going to be an even scarier place for my kids.

the world is a great big bowl of evenness
what I mean by that is that there are good changes and there are bad changes so they both even each other out

The internet happenned..

Stop being such a 'realist', nothing will ever change if you behave like that.

I was not pointing at any of the options: you'll notice I meant to present them all without bias. I agree that "downhillism" is mostly present in well-to-do places, but I cannot draw a conclusion out of it (it's the cynical point that people will not commit suicide if they're hungry).
My personal opinion was set aside, I wanted to know what you thought. If you want to see it, here it is: meaning in something is never ensured beyond subjectivity ("all I know is that I know nothing") - so history cannot teach, since its teaching would be history as well.

I'd say we're flourishing. Sure, bad things have happened, but quality of life for so many people has been improved in just a short while. We've gotten rid of slavery, we're getting rid of oppression of women, we're working on getting rid of GLBT people. Many nations of the world are now democratic, there is less petty warring between nations lately, we are beginning to cooperate internationallly. Technology has advanced in great leaps and bounds, lifespan has been increased, risk of death by many diseases has greatly reduced. Communicating with others has never been easier. And that's probably just scratching the surface.

Of course, this doesn't mean there isn't a veneer of rot around the edges. Some of the African countries are doing horrendously, and many of them do not have quite the opportunity that most western countries have. Islamic extremists run dictatorships in the Middle East where homosexuals are executed, women are abused, and corrupted bigotry is pronounced as law. There are still fairly large groups of people who would rather like to abandon our progress in some way or another, be it through oppressive theocracy, through fascism with its constant war, through 'going back to the old ways", etc.
I agree completely, except for the part about getting rid of GLBT people.

THere is an ebb and flow - things will get bad but then they will improve. Overall though DC is right - we are headed in the right direction overall.

Yes and no - it depends on the time period you're comparing.
Over the past half-century, I think that the world has decayed. Capitalism has taken over, left now means right, good music has been replaced with manufactured crap, the top half became rich, the bottom became poor, and everyone's perceptions of the future turned sour (so it's just going to get worse!). Look at any novel about a future society, and it's most likely dystopian. But we have advanced very far from the warring, authoritarian nomads we were at the beginning of the last millenium.

I agree completely, except for the part about getting rid of GLBT people.
:eek:
Oh, ouch.

That was my most horrendous typo ever.

*runs off to fix it before people think I am some kind of bigoted idiot*

:eek:
Oh, ouch.

That was my most horrendous typo ever.

*runs off to fix it before people think I am some kind of bigoted idiot*


lol - I was wondering where that one came from

:eek:
Oh, ouch.

That was my most horrendous typo ever.

*runs off to fix it before people think I am some kind of bigoted idiot*
It happens. Fred Phelps was actually just trying to say that god hates cigarettes, but he was misunderstood and he just decided to go with it.

But we have advanced very far from the warring, authoritarian nomads we were at the beginning of the last millenium.
Not to say that we are decaying, just to stress the fact: this is an old thesis in European thought (even if, at all times, challenged). But the bloodshed that accompanied humanity 1000 years ago is very much over-stated - apart from phenomenons like totlitarianism in China or the Vikings etc. As a percentage of people, we have killed more every year since 1914 than at any previous time. Percentagr, not number.

I don't think we're declining at all, our world is simply changeing.
The whole concept of "moral decay" is one based off of one's point of veiw. I don't feel societies become "better" or "worse", they simply alter and change in a way that affects people differently.
It's like the whole concept of "Good" and "Evil". It's all based on you and how you see the world.

well, this is a hard one to answer, it might take me a while

in my opinion, there is no *one* answer to this question. in fact, to answer it i think you'd have to look at it from different viewpoints...

spiritually, our morral are dacying, as more and more people are turning to the so-called "wrong" ways of doing things (ie. lesbianinsm, homosexuality, general debauchery, and sin) and these behaviours are being accepted. however, this has led to more and more people leaving the spiritual realm of the human existance behind, so yes, i suppose you could that the *spiritual* world is decaying.
more and more individuals are starting to devlope social "disorders" and "problems". in essence, psycologists are saying that the world is going crazy. or at least *our* half. in addition to this, people are beggining to *accept* these "disorders" such as deppression, in certain teenage circles *deppression* is *cool* as is *schyzophrennia*. the fact that we are embracing mental unbalance and instablity is more proof of the decay of humanity.
as is the fact that, on a whole, we are starting to stop thinking for ourselves. people are starting to believe everything the media says about them, the world, and life. free thought is what makes us human, and to lose that is to degrade your integerity, and if the mass is lossing thier free thought, than the mass is therefore lossing it's integerity.
in further addition, the vast majority of people are starting to lose faith in humanity. people are starting to believe that human kind is worthless (no, i'm not one of them) and that we need to be "culled" per-se. this is paramount proof that mankind is decaying.

scientifically, however; as more and more advances come out we are bettering ourselves, and helping protect other species. for example the simple fact that i have written this reply, and you are reading it is *amazing* when you look at it, because someone in *china* - 7,000 km away - can read this too! we live in an age of unparalleled communication and science, we can cure deseases that, 500 years ago, could kill entire cities! you can't possibly say that's not evidence to support the argument that humanity is bettering itself.
larger groups of people are starting to lend a hand. people have started caring again, helping the homeless, those touched by famine, danger, damage, loss, and so on. the fact that in this last decade, these organization have *tripled* in size from thier beginnings is outstanding.

anyway, i've taken up *far* too much space on this thread, so i'll be going now.

- you can choose from phantom fears or kindness that can kill, but i will choose a path that's clear:
i will choose free will.

I think that is a sign of decline is reasonable debate seems to be rare. He who screams the loudest, and spouts the most extreme speech is payed attention to instead of being shunned and ignored.

On the whole, would you say the world has been gaining qualities, losing them or that it is just the same place?
For example, do you think that major events over the centuries indicate that the world is improving, or are more and more alarming (not necessarily as a thread to an End that is around the corner, maybe just as indicators that human nature is unreedemable, or unworthy, or whatever)? Or is it that, on the whole, events have no importance or nothing to teach us?

What exactly does humanity have to do with Earth's decay? Believe me; We are not that important. :p

I think that is a sign of decline is reasonable debate seems to be rare. He who screams the loudest, and spouts the most extreme speech is payed attention to instead of being shunned and ignored.
I would state sort of the opposite here. Reasonable debate, while still not as prevalent as might be optimal, is at least happening a lot more than it was before. Extremists seem to me as though they are slowly losing their hold over others.

Interesting read about that : Candide (Voltaire).
According to Pangloss, the world is as bad as it can be. According to the other guy (sorry I don't remember his name), we live in the best world possible. They both debate to death in order to know which of the two is right.
The conclusion is that you should cultivate your garden.

All right, a lot of people may disagree severly, but here goes:

The world will get a hell of a lot worse before it gets any better. We are heading for a long period of international war, not like in the past of WWII or WWI, but new greuilla style warfare. This style is much bloodier and harder to win. This WILL be the war to end all wars. Nukes, Bios, and Chems (Oh my!). I'm not just using that phrase lightly, because I believe that peace is only attainable through war. People must be shown first-hand just how tragic and brutal it is so that people will never want to fight again. At the same time, all weapons of war must be destroyed, in this war of course. And third, a powerful, yet compasionate person who knows how to communicate and deal with people properly must be given control of a new world order. If anyone or any nation survives this war, they will want to meld into a world government. However, very few will survive this war. So yes, the world is currently decaying. But, it will not end. No, it will make a rebound.

It's cycling.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/corinthe_maraschino/worldqualitygraph.jpg

It's cycling.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/corinthe_maraschino/worldqualitygraph.jpg

YAY! :D

It's cycling.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/corinthe_maraschino/worldqualitygraph.jpg
Interesting political read about that : The Republic (Plato)
It goes like that :
Aristocracy->Timarchy->Oligarchy->Democracy->Tyrany->Chaos->Aristocracy.
When you come to think about it, it makes a lot of sense and history prooves him right.

Things have gone as they all-ways will. The world will get better but it will go badly. This century promises to be a lot like the 20th century.

spiritually, our morral are dacying, as more and more people are turning to the so-called "wrong" ways of doing things (ie. lesbianinsm, homosexuality, general debauchery, and sin) and these behaviours are being accepted. however, this has led to more and more people leaving the spiritual realm of the human existance behind, so yes, i suppose you could that the *spiritual* world is decaying.


I disagree, I say the breakdown of the old moral order has been a very positive thing for the world. The vast majority of human history people have been denied by society and religion to be who they are. The future looks bright for individual civil liberties.


more and more individuals are starting to devlope social "disorders" and "problems". in essence, psycologists are saying that the world is going crazy. or at least *our* half. in addition to this, people are beggining to *accept* these "disorders" such as deppression, in certain teenage circles *deppression* is *cool* as is *schyzophrennia*. the fact that we are embracing mental unbalance and instablity is more proof of the decay of humanity.


No, this is further evidence that the world is getting better. These disorders and socal problems have always been around. Since before Modern Civilization humanity had been unable to deal with these problems, they were ignored. Now these problems and disorders are in the open and can be treated, a lot more people will thus live happier more full-filled lives.

I'm not sure what you mean, but people's place in the world has definately improved over time. No more slavery, fewer fatal plagues, less famine, war is less common, as a species we're getting better.

No more slavery?? What are you talking about? There are estimated to be 12.3 million slaves (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4534393.stm) across the world today. Almost half a million of them are in the First World.

And have you forgotten that not 60 years ago humanity experienced the most cataclysmic war in its history, followed by the threat of nuclear annihilation? I really doubt we've become more peaceful over the ages.

As to famine and disease, well HIV is exterminating entire populations in Africa and Southeast Asia, and 30,000 children (not people total) a day die from treatable diseases. That's about the daily casualty rate of the darkest days of WWII.

I'm curious: how is it you've convinced yourself that humans as a species are physically better off today than even several centuries ago? The scope of human suffering in the modern world is staggering. Is it just that the bad stuff is happening far enough away that you don't register it?

We're just as fucked-up today as we were 40,000 years ago. However, we're far more fucked than we were, since now we have the capability to kill all of us.

Look at any novel about a future society, and it's most likely dystopian.
That is because novels have to be entertaining, and you can't make a utopian novel that is entertaining to anyone. Like that one Space Odyssey book and Walden II (I think it was Walden 2, haven't read it since 10th grade when a very amusing English teacher decided that his Sophomore class needed a bit more suffering) utopian novels just suck ass:
Narrator: YAY! Everyone is doing exactly what I say, and now they're happy!!
Peoples/Characters: YAY!! We are slavishly obeying the whims of the narrator about how grain products should be stored! And it makes us happy!!!!
Ugh, the sheer unbridled arrogance of it! The only people who would like such a story are those who feel exactly like the writer about every issue, and the writer's mom.

Now, as far as the world getting better. I'd say the world is definitely decaying, and at a farely rapid rate. Look at this timeline:
45 minutes ago - I was eating a foot long hoagie with Sausage and Peppers while I watched the original Dawn of the Dead.
30 minutes ago - The sandwich finished, I moved onto the onion rings
15 minutes ago - No food, and no movie I staggered over to my computer and turned it on, planning to write an essay
10 minutes ago - The Internets distracts me, and I decide to see if anything interesting is happening here
Now - I am posting this
An hour or so in the future - I will be writing a boring and long winded essay that I will despise for every moment of its existence and be filled with great shame over.

Now, can you honestly say that this isn't direct proof of a dramatic downward direction?
Life can't keep going like this.
Someone needs to get behind the wheel and put their foot on the accelerator!

We're just as fucked-up today as we were 40,000 years ago. However, we're far more fucked than we were, since now we have the capability to kill all of us.

Amen to that. Don't forget we can do it FASTER too!! Wow, ain't technology a bitch?

I think the world is decaying, but that is because it is changing. It is decaying into something far more beautiful than what we've got.

I think the world is decaying, but that is because it is changing. It is decaying into something far more beautiful than what we've got.

Is that deep or is it nonsense? I honestly can't tell.

Is that deep or is it nonsense? I honestly can't tell.

Possibly both... Existence is after all Absurd...

Is that deep or is it nonsense? I honestly can't tell.
Take it as you wish. It's just my thoughts. I mean, we have globalization, a rapidly democratizing planet, the destruction (and redefinition) of a community, and the global, virtual supply chain. This can be used by businesses, or, sadly, terrorists and non-state actors to magnify their power. The world has been changing since 1989, when half the world was emancipated from the tyranny of the Kremlin. And it just keeps accelarating.

Entropy is a fact that cannot be escaped. EVERYTHING decays, evn the data on your hard drive. Of course the World is decaying, just as it is growing. Over the course of millions of years, any deficits or surpluses of life all even out in the end. Mind you, someday, the eart will just be a lifeless husk. The real question is when. If we humans do self-destruct ourselves to exctinction, the world will carry on in the cycle of growth and decay long after we're gone. We just won't be around to see it.

From an ecologist's point of view, the world is indisputably decaying, and at a rather terrifying rate. Look at extinction rates sometime if you feel like being deeply disturbed by the relationship mankind has with our planet. It's pretty scary.

From a societal perspective, it's a much tougher question. In certain ways, society has distinctly progressed over the course of the past few centuries - we have a much better understanding of the workings of ourselves and our universe, and intolerance is - albeit very gradually - becoming more and more obsolete worldwide. At the same time, a lot of our progress seems to be in finding newer, shinier, more efficient ways of making each other miserable. Personally, I don't feel qualified to judge how the two sides of the equation balance out.

spiritually, our morral are dacying, as more and more people are turning to the so-called "wrong" ways of doing things (ie. lesbianinsm, homosexuality, general debauchery, and sin) and these behaviours are being accepted.

Funny...I'd call acceptance of others a positive thing. But hey, whatever...


more and more individuals are starting to devlope social "disorders" and "problems". in essence, psycologists are saying that the world is going crazy. or at least *our* half. in addition to this, people are beggining to *accept* these "disorders" such as deppression, in certain teenage circles *deppression* is *cool* as is *schyzophrennia*. the fact that we are embracing mental unbalance and instablity is more proof of the decay of humanity.

I'm not at all sure what your point was here. Why is "disorder" in quotes? What would you call depression, schizophrenia, and so forth? And who the hell thinks having such disorders is "cool"? I have yet to meet anyone who tells me that they're jealous of me for being bipolar or thinks it's cool - they mostly recognize that it makes my life miserable and wish somebody'd find me a miracle cure. At the same time, why wouldn't people "accept" such disorders? What alternative are you suggesting? Should we be telling people that their depression makes them a bad person?

Care to clarify what you're going for here? I don't want to be offended if you weren't meaning to be offensive. :)

Things have become quite wondeful in some places, less so in others though, sadly.

I should think all we can do is emulate those places which have found success.

No more slavery?? What are you talking about? There are estimated to be 12.3 million slaves (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4534393.stm) across the world today. Almost half a million of them are in the First World.

And have you forgotten that not 60 years ago humanity experienced the most cataclysmic war in its history, followed by the threat of nuclear annihilation? I really doubt we've become more peaceful over the ages.

As to famine and disease, well HIV is exterminating entire populations in Africa and Southeast Asia, and 30,000 children (not people total) a day die from treatable diseases. That's about the daily casualty rate of the darkest days of WWII.

I'm curious: how is it you've convinced yourself that humans as a species are physically better off today than even several centuries ago? The scope of human suffering in the modern world is staggering. Is it just that the bad stuff is happening far enough away that you don't register it?
Slavery isn't legal. I meant no more legal slavery.

The frequency of wars has dropped dramatically. In hunter gatherer societies in the past death in war was a common event. Nowadays only a small fraction of the population dies from military action.

The plague once wiped out a third of all human life, no? Smallpox used to make the rounds killing off a similar one in three people it infected. Been feeling very smallpoxy lately?

If you think that the scope of human suffering today is bad you'd have given up and killed yourself if you lived just one century ago.

HeHe then the question is why so many people a century ago where so healthy compared to us? We might have social status more defined, but societies are basically the same. The rich still hold most of the power if not all of it, the poor still die of hunger and work for the rich folks, and of course governments do as they like as long as they don't show anything, or they do not conflict with the interests of a lot of the rich people in their countries.

Abt the military conflicts I guess your basing your ideas about people not dying so often because of the military upon north america and parts of europe right?

In Russia the number of Spetnaz soldiers (special forces and anti-terrorist group) because of the need of military action. Even though their intentions are not to kill the innocents, who said that they dont die because of it? Have you ever stopped to wonder if terrorism is a form of military kill? Of course not you see it as someone trying to destroy and harm a peacefull society : /.
In vietnam warlords still exist : / and they still fight over their little country like hungry animals through military actions. Other countries near vietnam also have money hungry warlords who still control the territories and still kill using military action. It may not be that everyday the army gets send on a mission that we know off, but be sure that everyday someone dies because of a military action one way or another.

HeHe then the question is why so many people a century ago where so healthy compared to us? We might have social status more defined, but societies are basically the same. The rich still hold most of the power if not all of it, the poor still die of hunger and work for the rich folks, and of course governments do as they like as long as they don't show anything, or they do not conflict with the interests of a lot of the rich people in their countries.

Abt the military conflicts I guess your basing your ideas about people not dying so often because of the military upon north america and parts of europe right?

In Russia the number of Spetnaz soldiers (special forces and anti-terrorist group) because of the need of military action. Even though their intentions are not to kill the innocents, who said that they dont die because of it? Have you ever stopped to wonder if terrorism is a form of military kill? Of course not you see it as someone trying to destroy and harm a peacefull society : /.
In vietnam warlords still exist : / and they still fight over their little country like hungry animals through military actions. Other countries near vietnam also have money hungry warlords who still control the territories and still kill using military action. It may not be that everyday the army gets send on a mission that we know off, but be sure that everyday someone dies because of a military action one way or another.
What do you mean people a century ago were healthy compared to us? They died much younger. We live decades longer. We don't have kids paralyzed due to polio. We don't have people going crazy because syphilis is eating their brain. We're much better off health wise.

According to an issue of Skeptic magazine that dealt with primitive tribes, analysis of the remains of thier dead show that warfare was one of the leading causes of death among men. Our hunter/gatherer ancesters would be in a near constant state of war with their neighbors. Nowadays war is a fairly rare event, although we've become better at it.
Look at the bible, I don't beleive the religious message in it, but it does contain historical accounts of warfare several thousand years ago. They would kill all the men, enslave the women and children. Beleive it or not, in almost every part of the world people have become more peacefull.

We are slowly turning our planet into hell. The 20th century saw wars increase in number and intensity from the 19 and 18 century. There's still a nuclear scare, only now we fear terrorists getting some nukes instead of the Soviets. We can't go 10 years without a full-scale war now. Plus, we are devestating our planet in ways our ancestors could only dream about. We have cars producing smog in large cities. Rain forests are still being mowed down for temporary farms and roads barely traveled. Corporations are still dumping chemicles into the water supply. The extinction rate has gone from a few a year to a few a week. Plus, people aren't really living longer. They are just surviving longer. They are old longer. I'd rather be young for 60 years before I drop dead than young for 40 years followed by old for another 40 years. A simple concept of social equality can't avoid becoming tyrrany now. We are coming up with new ways of killing people faster. It's only a matter of time before we wipe ourselves out. Then, the world will heal from beasts that devestated it for personal gain.

We are slowly turning our planet into hell. The 20th century saw wars increase in number and intensity from the 19 and 18 century. There's still a nuclear scare, only now we fear terrorists getting some nukes instead of the Soviets. We can't go 10 years without a full-scale war now. Plus, we are devestating our planet in ways our ancestors could only dream about. We have cars producing smog in large cities. Rain forests are still being mowed down for temporary farms and roads barely traveled. Corporations are still dumping chemicles into the water supply. The extinction rate has gone from a few a year to a few a week. Plus, people aren't really living longer. They are just surviving longer. They are old longer. I'd rather be young for 60 years before I drop dead than young for 40 years followed by old for another 40 years. A simple concept of social equality can't avoid becoming tyrrany now. We are coming up with new ways of killing people faster. It's only a matter of time before we wipe ourselves out. Then, the world will heal from beasts that devestated it for personal gain.
Dude, nowadays a normal 60 year old can work, participate in sports, and get laid. A hundred years ago the average 60 year old could only lay there and decompose.

War has always been with us, and probably always will be, but if you look at long term trends it's becoming less frequent, not more.

Environmental damage is bad, but there is hope that cleaner technologies can help in the future. Remember that it wasn't too long ago when London's air was lethal. http://www.ace.mmu.ac.uk/eae/Air_Quality/Younger/Great_London_Smog.html (click on the little camera to see a graph showing air quality and number of deaths)