NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054594

"If one person criticizes them or says one more thing - including the president of the United States - he will hear from me," she said on the ABC program. "One more word about it after this show airs and I might likely have to punch him. Literally."


Sad, pathetic, and pitiful.

"The President could have funded it," she said. "He cut it out of the budget. Is that the most pitiful sight you have ever seen in your life? One little crane."

Oh, Senator, you are the one who votes to approve the budget, why were there no concerns then?

all words no action.
Pathetic.

"She also referred angrily to comments Bush had made Friday at the New Orleans airport about the fun he had in her city in his younger days.

"Our infrastructure is devastated, lives have been shattered," Landrieu said. "Would the president please stop taking photo-ops?"


Sounds likes a reasonable statement.

Oh, Senator, you are the one who votes to approve the budget, why were there no concerns then?

Oh and do you know what her vote was?

Sounds likes a reasonable statement.
I guess it is reasonable if you are a pathetic partisan senator who only cares about casting blame on the administration. Photo op? When the president was surveying the damage? Would this hag have said that about Clinton when he toured Hurricane disater areas. No.

Oh and do you know what her vote was?
Did she raise the concerns? at the time? Instead of now, for political gain?

Ignorant.

I guess it is reasonable if you are a pathetic partisan senator who only cares about casting blame on the administration. Photo op? When the president was surveying the damage? Would this hag have said that about Clinton when he toured Hurricane disater areas. No.

Actually you got it before I edited out. It was the start of an idea that I threw out.

Surveying the damage? Give me a break. It's photo ops.

What does he need to be doing there. His presence causes problems with all the security detail that needs to be setup.

One news blip showed a truck driver sitting idle as he had to wait while the shrub "surveyed" the area.

You are only guessing what that "hag" :rolleyes: would have said if Clinton was in charge.

Whatever kiddo.
Ditto, Child.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054594

"If one person criticizes them or says one more thing - including the president of the United States - he will hear from me," she said on the ABC program. "One more word about it after this show airs and I might likely have to punch him. Literally."


Sad, pathetic, and pitiful.

"The President could have funded it," she said. "He cut it out of the budget. Is that the most pitiful sight you have ever seen in your life? One little crane."

Oh, Senator, you are the one who votes to approve the budget, why were there no concerns then?


Emotion > Logic: The Democrat Way

Did she raise the concerns? at the time? Instead of now, for political gain?

Ignorant.

Oh and speaking of ignorant; do you know what her comments where?

Emotion > Logic: The Democrat Way
HAHAHAHA.

No seroiusly, we do actually take logic into account once in a while.

And how many busses did the president leave to rot? How many days was it that the president waited before calling in the NG?

Oh, wait. THat was local & state governments.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054594

"If one person criticizes them or says one more thing - including the president of the United States - he will hear from me," she said on the ABC program. "One more word about it after this show airs and I might likely have to punch him. Literally."

This is disturbing, but pretty much par for the course with the extremist controlling my party.

Originally posted by The Black Forrest
What does he need to be doing there. His presence causes problems with all the security detail that needs to be setup.

And imagine what people would be saying if he hadn't gone. Lose/lose situation, there.

Did she raise the concerns? at the time? Instead of now, for political gain?

Ignorant.
Perhaps she did and the Media just didn't catch it. Were you in Congress when it came up for discussion, No? Then how could you know what went on???

Of course now she's slit her political throat, I wonder when the Homeland Security people will appear and drag her away. At least she'll go down as a Martyr to the Anti Bush Cause.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054594

"If one person criticizes them or says one more thing - including the president of the United States - he will hear from me," she said on the ABC program. "One more word about it after this show airs and I might likely have to punch him. Literally."


Sad, pathetic, and pitiful.

"The President could have funded it," she said. "He cut it out of the budget. Is that the most pitiful sight you have ever seen in your life? One little crane."

Oh, Senator, you are the one who votes to approve the budget, why were there no concerns then?
Proof of concerns:
"Federal flood-control spending for southeastern Louisiana has been chopped, from $69 million in 2001 to $36.5 million in 2005, according to budget documents. Federal hurricane protection for the Lake Pontchartrain vicinity in the Army Corps of Engineers' budget dropped from $14.25 million in 2002 to $5.7 million this year. Louisiana Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu requested $27 million this year."
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/12532185.htm

Originally posted by The Black Forrest


And imagine what people would be saying if he hadn't gone. Lose/lose situation, there.

There are those that would be upset; no doubt. But he could respond with "I have flown over to get an idea. However, because of the security arrangements required for my presence, I don't want to interfere with the people helping on the ground."

Is he really helping by being seen there?

Bush practically materialized in Florida when he thought it would help his election.

Proof of concerns:
"Federal flood-control spending for southeastern Louisiana has been chopped, from $69 million in 2001 to $36.5 million in 2005, according to budget documents. Federal hurricane protection for the Lake Pontchartrain vicinity in the Army Corps of Engineers' budget dropped from $14.25 million in 2002 to $5.7 million this year. Louisiana Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu requested $27 million this year."
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/12532185.htm

Katrina was a cat 4 hurricane

Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, chief of engineers for the Corps, dismissed suggestions that recent federal funding decreases or delayed contracts had any impact on levee performance in the face of Katrina's overwhelming force.

Instead he pointed to a danger that many public officials had warned about for years: The system was never designed to withstand a storm of Katrina's strength.

"It was fully recognized by officials that we had Category Three [hurricane] level of protection," Strock said. "As projections of Category Four and Five were made, [officials] began plans to evacuate the city.

"We were just caught by a storm whose intensity exceeded the protection that we had in place."

Until the day before Katrina's arrival, New Orleans's 350 miles (560 kilometers) of levees were undergoing a feasibility study to examine the possibility of upgrading them to withstand a Category Four or Five storm.

Corps officials say the study, which began in 2000, will take several years to complete.

Upgrading the system would take as long as 20 to 25 years, according to Al Naomi, the Corps' senior project manager for the New Orleans District.


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/09/0902_050902_katrina_levees.html

I think it unfair to attack Bush for failing to compress several years of study and 20-25 of work to upgrade the levee system so it could handle a hurricane the size of Katrina into a 4 1/2 year time period.

People studied. Bush didn't need to worry his pretty little head over it.

I'm sure more could have been done to protect N.O. But my question is this. Why is is that some Democrats (not all) feel that their dislike of Bush allows them to act like children, and do things that would get you in trouble in Kindergarten? She could have said she would see to it that he paid a heavy political price. Not "punch him" Sad thing is, whether she is right or wrong, now everyone will just pay attention to her lack of self control.

Katrina was a cat 4 hurricane


Actually Katrina hit 5 level.....

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/tropical.weather/

Emotion > Logic: The Democrat Way

Because we all know just how wonderful you fundie christians are with "logic."

J/K. You know we love you. :D

Did she raise the concerns? at the time? Instead of now, for political gain?

Ignorant.

Whatever kiddo.

Ditto, Child.

Emotion > Logic: The Democrat Way


Trolling = the Neo way.

Stinky Head Cheese and The Black Forrest: You both need to quit sniping at each other. There's no excuse for talking down to each other.

Neo Rogolia and The Black Forrest: There's absolutely no reason you had to post that in here. That is outright trolling, which you've been in trouble with before. Knock it off. TBF, your response to Neo was just as bad. Calling someone a troll can be considered flamebait. Just don't respond to it.

Stinky Head Cheese and The Black Forrest: You both need to quit sniping at each other. There's no excuse for talking down to each other.

Neo Rogolia and The Black Forrest: There's absolutely no reason you had to post that in here. That is outright trolling, which you've been in trouble with before. Knock it off. TBF, your response to Neo was just as bad. Calling someone a troll can be considered flamebait. Just don't respond to it.

So noted. SHC is already on the ignore list.

She just seems to be upset that the local government did drop the ball, and badly, but doesn't want anyone to point it out.

No one can say that this was handled with anything aproaching competance at the local level.

Originally posted by The Black Forrest


And imagine what people would be saying if he hadn't gone. Lose/lose situation, there.

True...very true.

I guess it is reasonable if you are a pathetic partisan senator who only cares about casting blame on the administration. Photo op? When the president was surveying the damage? Would this hag have said that about Clinton when he toured Hurricane disater areas. No.

You hit it right on the nose (except maybe the "hag" part). It reminds me of a complaint that President Lincoln had. When he attended church on Sunday, people criticized him, "that shameless politicians is attending my church just so he can get votes! Does he take me for a fool?" When he didnt' attend church, people would criticize, "that Godless s.o.b.! How does he expect to lead if he can't even show his face in God's once a week?"

It's a simple equation. Criticize him for not being there when the disaster hits. When he gets there, criticize him for not getting there quickly enough. When he leaves, criticize him for not staying longer. If he comes back, criticize him for missing his chance to do more the first time he visited.

On a slightly different subject, I think that this disaster highlights the bureaucratic difficulties in getting federal emergency relief dispursed.

I'm not all that old, but I remember only a few disasters large enough to warrant federal intervention (meaning the need for federal troops and/or relief workers because people lack the basic necessities of life). The Rodney King-induced civil disorder in Los Angeles, Hurricane Andrew, a few others. In each case, federal relief was delayed and the President was criticized. But the fact is that the President is not God and cannot guarantee that the federal government will be there lickity-split whenever anything bad happens.

Proof of concerns:
"Federal flood-control spending for southeastern Louisiana has been chopped, from $69 million in 2001 to $36.5 million in 2005, according to budget documents. Federal hurricane protection for the Lake Pontchartrain vicinity in the Army Corps of Engineers' budget dropped from $14.25 million in 2002 to $5.7 million this year. Louisiana Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu requested $27 million this year."
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/12532185.htm

But since it takes years or decades to complete a public works project, what would three years of construction actually have done to protect New Orleans? It takes a decade just to add a lane to a four mile stretch of highway.

But since it takes years or decades to complete a public works project, what would three years of construction actually have done to protect New Orleans? It takes a decade just to add a lane to a four mile stretch of highway.

Ok. How long wout the project have taken with the remaining funding that was left over?

Not a surprise. Everyone's coming out of the woodwork to try and take political advantage of this situation and blame Bush for it (conveniently forgetting the city of New Orleans, state of Louisiana, and the legislative branch). This is nothing more than political opportunism, and we'll be seeing more of it from both parties in the upcoming weeks.

She did secure $7,115,000 for the Formosan Subterranean Termite Research Program; interestingly enough, this is slightly less than the money she agreed to recieve for the the Lake Ponchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane Protection Project. I didn't see a word about any redirection of funds from this pork to the levee proect.

She's a politician who only cares about her own reelection, just like any other in the sewer on the Potomac.

Ok. How long wout the project have taken with the remaining funding that was left over?

I don't know; she could have redirected plenty of money to that project from the $7.11 million she got for the study of subterranean Formosan termites; that would have come to almost exactly the amount required.

I remember reading that this particular senator is much more moderate than the usual democrat; as is the case with the vast majority of democrats from the south. This statement shocks me, but its obviously an empty threat New Orleans has been drowned underneath this unmerciful hurricane, and she has the right to be angry. She's expressing this anger in an inappropriate way, but you would have to be an idiot to truly believe that this woman is really going to deck the President.

Actually Katrina hit 5 level.....

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/tropical.weather/

But a Cat 4 at landfall!

Seriously, the senator must know that violance isn't the answer. Has anyone reported this threat of a punch to the Secret Service?

Ok. How long wout the project have taken with the remaining funding that was left over?

There was never any plans to actually upgrade to Cat 4 protection. It was only being studied.

Ironically, the levees probably made things worse in this case.

There was never any plans to actually upgrade to Cat 4 protection. It was only being studied.

Ironically, the levees probably made things worse in this case.

Really? I heard one engineer say that the earthen works pretty much held and the simple concrete stuff broke.....

She just seems to be upset that the local government did drop the ball, and badly, but doesn't want anyone to point it out.

No one can say that this was handled with anything aproaching competance at the local level.
I can, and I have, and I continue to do so. The state and the city both did what they were supposed to do before the storm hit--contact the federal government and tell them that if this storm hit, they'd be overwhelmed and they wouldn't be able to handle it, which they did. Two days before the storm hit, they did. They told everyone to get out of the city, and those who couldn't get out to get to a shelter of last resort--that's what the Superdome was. Now, that's an ominous name, isn't it--a shelter of last resort.

The expectation was that as soon as the storm had passed, the feds would be in with supplies and security, because under Clinton, that's what FEMA did, and they did it well. But this is FEMA under Dubya, and since the top three people are not crisis managers, but are political hacks with no experience in crisis management, it's no surprise that they fucked everything up six ways from Sunday.

Remember--the violence (which has apparently been overreported and a lot of it can't be confirmed) didn't start until two days after the storm passed. The looting until then was largely for food and other necessary supplies. Plenty of time for the feds to get in and help out. It took them five. There's no way to blame the locals for being unable to keep control of the situation that long. Not if you're honest.

The expectation was that as soon as the storm had passed, the feds would be in with supplies and security, because under Clinton, that's what FEMA did, and they did it well. But this is FEMA under Dubya, and since the top three people are not crisis managers, but are political hacks with no experience in crisis management, it's no surprise that they fucked everything up six ways from Sunday.

I think what happened was a combination of factors. The first was that there has never been a hurricane on this scale before, and they simply wern't prepared for it. The second is that FEMA's now part of the DHS, which means there's another 170,000 employee forest of red tape to navigate. Thirdly, there was the Washington culture of political cronyism that meant the best person for the job wasn't in the top spot.

Effectively, this shows once again how incompetent the city, state, and federal government are, and how deep the political cronyism has run in the cesspool of Washington DC.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054594

"If one person criticizes them or says one more thing - including the president of the United States - he will hear from me," she said on the ABC program. "One more word about it after this show airs and I might likely have to punch him. Literally."


Sad, pathetic, and pitiful.

"The President could have funded it," she said. "He cut it out of the budget. Is that the most pitiful sight you have ever seen in your life? One little crane."

Oh, Senator, you are the one who votes to approve the budget, why were there no concerns then?
If I had a dolar for everytime I threatened the life of President Bush, in public, I'd have the campaign budget of the Democratic National Party...

I can, and I have, and I continue to do so. The state and the city both did what they were supposed to do before the storm hit--contact the federal government and tell them that if this storm hit, they'd be overwhelmed and they wouldn't be able to handle it, which they did. Two days before the storm hit, they did. They told everyone to get out of the city, and those who couldn't get out to get to a shelter of last resort--that's what the Superdome was. Now, that's an ominous name, isn't it--a shelter of last resort.

The expectation was that as soon as the storm had passed, the feds would be in with supplies and security, because under Clinton, that's what FEMA did, and they did it well. But this is FEMA under Dubya, and since the top three people are not crisis managers, but are political hacks with no experience in crisis management, it's no surprise that they fucked everything up six ways from Sunday.

Remember--the violence (which has apparently been overreported and a lot of it can't be confirmed) didn't start until two days after the storm passed. The looting until then was largely for food and other necessary supplies. Plenty of time for the feds to get in and help out. It took them five. There's no way to blame the locals for being unable to keep control of the situation that long. Not if you're honest.
The problems pertain to several big-time managerial mistakes. For example, the people who were incapable of leaving New Orleans could have fled via City transit and school buses had the mayor given the order. The Ohio and New Mexico National Guard could have been on the scene the next morning had the governor finished the paperwork. The New Orleans police force has been behaving like an army which has been defeated and lost it's leaders. Not to say that Bush is blame free, but the blame is pretty nicely distributed all along.

No, there was vast incompetence all along the leadership ladder. I've heard it called a cock-up, but that term vastly understates the massive failure across the board, no, a Clusterfuck is far superior of a term for this incident.

*sigh*

Complaints about dems trying to capatalize this for political gain already. Well, you know what guys, what the hell is the point of our government?

Well I think the constitution says it best with this part in the preamble: "to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity"

The parts in question here are the parts about domestic Tranquility (since there really isn't much in New Orleans or along that stretch of coast right now), provide for the common defense (aka, protect the people of our country), and promote the general Welfare (since people starving and dying is really the opposite).

Now, what is the proper role of politicians in our government?

Answer: To try to accomplish the goal of government stated above.

How do they do that?

Answer: By enacting laws and legislation that work towards the goal.

And what happens when the government fails to work towards this goal?

Answer: Ideally the people would elect someone else next time around. But, because there is about 300 million Americans, most of which aren't paying attention, sometimes to point out a government failure, someone has to get loud and ornrey.

So is it good or bad to call out the government when it fails in its goal?

Answer: Yes! It doesn't matter if there are alterior motives about reelction crap, if the government has screwed the people, its the right and duty of those who know what's going on to call the leaders out on this. If a mistake has been made (which I'm pretty damn sure there were several) then someone should be saying something about it. I don't care if its a democrat or a republican who's telling people what's up as long as they're doing it.

But why should we believe what a politican says?

Answer: Don't. When someone in a political office calls the government out, double check. Look up the laws in question, find the time line of events, and try to figure out what really happened and who is to blame for the current state of affairs. And by no means allow your biases for or against the speaker cloud your judgement. Doing so disservices yourself.

So, why is everyone getting pissed about Landrieu being pissed? Wouldn't you be in her position?

Now find out for yourselves the entire time line of what's been going on with the dikes, levies, new orleans, funding, fema, and all that stuff, going back to the 60s when the possibility of a major hurricane flooding the city was known. Yes, its been a heck of a long time coming this disaster. For the levie breaks I'm not going to just blame today's funding cuts but the lack of action previous congresses and presidents have overseen.

And remeber kids, the president is not the only part of the government. Congress can either help or hurt the movement off good or bad things. Tata.

But when Pat Robertson calls for the KILLING of a world leader, that is acceptable?

But when Pat Robertson calls for the KILLING of a world leader, that is acceptable?

No. Really, I don't care about what she said; what I do care about is the hypocrisy and political motivation she had for doing it. That's wrong, and its disgraceful to use this disaster for political gain (just like PR and Chavez).

The problems pertain to several big-time managerial mistakes. For example, the people who were incapable of leaving New Orleans could have fled via City transit and school buses had the mayor given the order.
Where would they have gone? You can't just send people away from the city on a road to nowhere, especially not in the numbers we're talking about here. Hell, people are being relocated to California right now.

The Ohio and New Mexico National Guard could have been on the scene the next morning had the governor finished the paperwork.
The story I read was that the feds had gotten in the way of that. If you can point me to a reasonably objective source that states otherwise, I'd like to see it.

The New Orleans police force has been behaving like an army which has been defeated and lost it's leaders. Not to say that Bush is blame free, but the blame is pretty nicely distributed all along.
Now this I can blame strictly on the feds--no matter how bad the road situation was, they could have dropped airborne troops in there for security. And as I said before, the violence wasn't an issue for a couple of days, plenty of time to deploy to the area.

No, there was vast incompetence all along the leadership ladder. I've heard it called a cock-up, but that term vastly understates the massive failure across the board, no, a Clusterfuck is far superior of a term for this incident.
Clusterfuck is certainly the term to use, but considering what the local and state authorities had to work with and the fact that they called for help plenty in advance, I still maintain that the vast majority of the blame belongs on the federal side.

No, there was vast incompetence all along the leadership ladder. I've heard it called a cock-up, but that term vastly understates the massive failure across the board, no, a Clusterfuck is far superior of a term for this incident.

I prefer the term "disasterbacle".

The fact that she'd been on the scene working her arse off and was tired and angry, then saw Senor Brush descend for yet another photo-op, having been 'forced' to break one of his long holidays, excuses her I'd say. I remember a saying a real and proper president used to have on his desk, 'The Buck Stops Here'. Brush doesn't know the meaning of responsibility.

I think you're all missing the point here.
The real story is... .CAN the Senator actually take the president in a fight?

We need weights on both, arm length, and over-all "killer instinct"

While I have no idea how butch the Senator actually is. I think G.W. would put up a good fight at first... being an ex-yale punk and alcoholic. He'd also not be above ear-biteing or eye gouging. So he's got that going for him. However. I think once the senator gets in a kick to his jimmies he'll crumble like a heinekin keg can. I got odds on the senator. but only 3 to 1.

Where would they have gone? You can't just send people away from the city on a road to nowhere, especially not in the numbers we're talking about here. Hell, people are being relocated to California right now.
Take them to Houston, take them to St. Louis, Hell, just get them out of the path of the flooding and the storm. Doing this would have saved plenty of lives.


The story I read was that the feds had gotten in the way of that. If you can point me to a reasonably objective source that states otherwise, I'd like to see it.
I only got a minor hit on this, and it was incredibly ambiguous, something about a clerical screwup in Washington.

Now this I can blame strictly on the feds--no matter how bad the road situation was, they could have dropped airborne troops in there for security. And as I said before, the violence wasn't an issue for a couple of days, plenty of time to deploy to the area.
Definitely NOT airborne troops. The place is flooded and full of houses, not ideal conditions, a surefire way to break a leg, drowned or a dozen other fun things. Perhaps Airmobile forces, but that's perpetually iffy, and transporting their gear cross-country takes a couple of days. Helicopters are not designed for incredibly long range at incredibly high speeds, and cross country flight is time consuming.

Clusterfuck is certainly the term to use, but considering what the local and state authorities had to work with and the fact that they called for help plenty in advance, I still maintain that the vast majority of the blame belongs on the federal side.
I dunno, I still seem to see that a large portion of blame rests with the state and local officials, and is spread fairly evenly.

I'm shocked. I really am. Sen. Landreiu is not usually like this at all, though I suppose that no one will take this seriously. She's just emotional, probably overworked, and if anything, needs a nice long vacation and a good bubble bath.
Really, though, Congress always dismisses for August recess, and most Congressmen vacation during then. Sen Landreiu had a shitty August vacation.

Somebody deserves a good swift kick in the ass. Too bad it'll never be someone I'd probably get reported to the mods for mentioning by name.

Somebody deserves a good swift kick in the ass. Too bad it'll never be someone I'd probably get reported to the mods for mentioning by name.

The legislative/executive branches, the state of Louisiana, the city of New Orleans, and the overwhelming bureaucracy of the DHS?

The legislative/executive branches, the state of Louisiana, the city of New Orleans, and the overwhelming bureaucracy of the DHS?
Partisan politics aside, I've never understood the logic behind dropping FEMA from a cabinet level post and tossing it under DHS. They have different priorities, it seems to me. I understand that FEMA grew out of the old Civil Defense program, but after Hurricane Andrew, it seemed to be tasked mainly as a insurer of last resort and a responder to natural disasters. So why not leave it alone and turn the civil defense over to DHS, which was ostensibly created in response to the 9/11 attacks?

Of course, if I'd had my way about it, the people in charge of both areas would have been crisis managers, not political flunkies, but hey, that's me.

The legislative/executive branches, the state of Louisiana, the city of New Orleans, and the overwhelming bureaucracy of the DHS?
I said I'd probably get reported if I mentioned the deserving party by name. You haven't mentioned the name I'm thinking of. And like Hell I'm going to give some fan of the s****ing c***p the satisfaction of getting me a forumban

I said I'd probably get reported if I mentioned the deserving party by name. You haven't mentioned the name I'm thinking of. And like Hell I'm going to give some fan of the s****ing c***p the satisfaction of getting me a forumban

I don't like him either, trust me. He makes those conspiracies about Clinton's "black helicopters" look tame compared to the stuff he's doing in real life. I can't stand his quasi-dictatorial nature, but I also can' stand the people standing by and letting it happen for political gain. This entire culture of neoconservative cronyism needs to be washed out of there, and fast.

Hey, Stinky.

I thought you were banned a while ago for being a jerk (which you are BTW). I can't say I'm glad to see you back...

Partisan politics aside, I've never understood the logic behind dropping FEMA from a cabinet level post and tossing it under DHS. They have different priorities, it seems to me. I understand that FEMA grew out of the old Civil Defense program, but after Hurricane Andrew, it seemed to be tasked mainly as a insurer of last resort and a responder to natural disasters. So why not leave it alone and turn the civil defense over to DHS, which was ostensibly created in response to the 9/11 attacks?

Of course, if I'd had my way about it, the people in charge of both areas would have been crisis managers, not political flunkies, but hey, that's me.

Well, it was originally intended to make FEMA better at responding to terrorism, since ideally the expertise of the DHS would be shared with disaster response, improving the overall ability of the nation to respond to a terror attack. Of course, whenever you move an independent organization in to a larger department, the bureaucracy increases exponentially and effectiveness plummets (primarily because any kind of action requires DHS approval, and Bush's buddies aren't going to let each other get in trouble, no matter what). So, this entire idea was doomed to failiure from the start.

Appointing cronies to run various departments is classic Washington politics. It was less pronounced during the Clinton Admin. when the two parties cooperated, but now the Admin. is using various departments as chess pieces in the partisan war, loading them with supporters so that their ideology holds even after the Administration is out of power. It's planning both for the present and future, and the losers are, well, us.

I don't like him either, trust me. He makes those conspiracies about Clinton's "black helicopters" look tame compared to the stuff he's doing in real life. I can't stand his quasi-dictatorial nature, but I also can' stand the people standing by and letting it happen for political gain. This entire culture of neoconservative cronyism needs to be washed out of there, and fast.
Who honestly has the time for delusional, paranoid non-conspiracies against middle-class white folk from the midwest while there's bitterly real injustice being dealt to disenfranchised blacks in the south?

What has seemed to slip past most Americans is just how 'busted' you all are in the eyes of the rest of the world. We've been lectured at, cajoled, brow-beaten and had aspersions cast over our (the rest of the planet's, that is)democracies ever since the s****ing c***p came to power, whether that be coming from private citizens, newsmedia personalities, or actual members of the crony brigade. Well, you've shot your collective wad, now.

It's all a big sham - just like some of us have been maintaining for years - but now it's a big sham that can't conveniently be swept under a rug. Or out-and-out ignored by a shameful and odious fifth estate. The s****ing c***p should consider himself lucky he was able to so easily cow the press for five entire years. How lucky you'll all be if they decide to not simply go back to rolling over and playing dead again.

Who honestly has the time for delusional, paranoid non-conspiracies against middle-class white folk from the midwest while there's bitterly real injustice being dealt to disenfranchised blacks in the south?

Ask Jerry Falwell; those UN troops were waiting to barge in and arrest him at Clinton's order. :rolleyes:

What has seemed to slip past most Americans is just how 'busted' you all are in the eyes of the rest of the world. We've been lectured at, cajoled, brow-beaten and had aspersions cast over our (the rest of the planet's, that is)democracies ever since the s****ing c***p came to power, whether that be coming from private citizens, newsmedia personalities, or actual members of the crony brigade. Well, you've shot your collective wad, now.

Well, the problem is that people don't care in the US. We spend the most private money on elections but get the lowest voter turnouts; of course, the effect of that on Washington's attitudes towards the American people is almost self evident.

It's all a big sham - just like some of us have been maintaining for years - but now it's a big sham that can't conveniently be swept under a rug. Or out-and-out ignored by a shameful and odious fifth estate. The s****ing c***p should consider himself lucky he was able to so easily cow the press for five entire years. How lucky you'll all be if they decide to not simply go back to rolling over and playing dead again.

Enough people are starting to get pissed in the US. I personally am hearing it all the time, even from conservatives. (the real kind who want the government out of our lives and more freedoms, not this new breed of semi-totalitarians who want to force their religious beliefs on everyone and everything); actually, they'd be libertarian by US standards.

The moderates are being pushed away from the Republican camp, and the Democrats are reorganizing behind strong candidates with a message. The Bushites are getting more and reactionary and are trying to do anything to prop up their regime. All we need is for the media to go on the attack, and the Republican regime will be running. Their message is dead and their original ideas for the party have been crushed under their money-grubbing.

I think Ohio will be blue in '08, and will definitely turn in 06'. Our corrupt governor Taft is dragging the party down with him.

Ready for the latest? According to the AP (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/katrina_disaster_response;_ylt=Ak_rIryMDAzLga9hk7jGKdms0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ), FEMA head Mike Brown waited until 5 hours after Katrina struck the Gulf Coast before asking Chertoff, his boss at DHS, to send 1,000 FEMA employees to the area, and then gave them 48 hours to arrive.
WASHINGTON - The government's disaster chief waited until hours after Hurricane Katrina had already struck the Gulf Coast before asking his boss to dispatch 1,000 Homeland Security employees to the region — and gave them two days to arrive, according to internal documents.

Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, sought the approval from Homeland Security Secretary Mike Chertoff roughly five hours after Katrina made landfall on Aug. 29. Brown said that among duties of these employees was to "convey a positive image" about the government's response for victims.

Before then, FEMA had positioned smaller rescue and communications teams across the Gulf Coast. But officials acknowledged Tuesday the first department-wide appeal for help came only as the storm raged.
Now remember, Blanco had asked for help two days before Katrina struck and Bush had apparently issued a state of emergency--so what was the damn holdup? Even assuming that Brown was correct that the employees needed training, couldn't that have been done beforehand as a just-in-case scenario? Would it have hurt anything?

EDIT: And Vetalia, I really hope you're right about Ohio, for more than partisan reasons. I miss the old, pre-fundamentalist takeover Republican party. I used to be able to vote for those folks on occasion. I can't anymore.

I think Ohio will be blue in '08, and will definitely turn in 06'. Our corrupt governor Taft is dragging the party down with him.

Off topic here in Stow/Kent...
Taft sucks donkey turds. I think that one thing that is completly nonpartisan here in Ohio. The poll in our local paper...just today...says that 75% of us say he should resign...not gonna happen though. Pfft. I don't know if you can hear 100.1 up there (WNIR), but if you can...give a listen to Howie. I can't stand the guy, but his Taft bashing is priceless!

OK. Back on topic.

In my opinion, the senators and reps of LA and MS can say whatever they damn well please. There states have just gone through a terrible disaster and as the voice of the people, they are speaking up. Give them some slack. At least they are not accepting free golf outings in violation of their office. ssts. Some of the Senator's words may not have been the "best choice", but under duress, peoiple will say anything...it doesn't matter WHAT office they hold. They are only human.

As for placing blame. I am NOT one of the worlds greatest Bush supporters, but this isn't about him or his politics (unless, of course, you buy into the conspiracy theory that the government is controlling our weather). This is about placing blame. We just had a major Cat 4...almost cat 5 hurricane hit the US. It majorly impacted two states. New Orlenes (which is BELOW sea level anyway) was just buying time until this happened. Actually, it could have been worse. The eye could have hit NO dead on. Not that that diminishes this in any way...at all. Thousands of people are dead. 10s of thousands more are homeless. Most likely, about 90% of all the buildings that were affected by the flood will have to be destroyed and rebuilt (Wood buildings and contaminated water do not mix very well). It is a long hard road. When disasters of this magnitude occur, it is human nature to find a reason why. In this case...BUSH! Yeah. THat's it. Bush. He shoulda woulda coulda...or the STATE government! How about the NO mayer! Oh yeah! Look at all those busses that could have been used! They ALL could have saved lives!! (If you can't read the toung in cheek, that last bit was all sarcastic). What everyone needs to realize is that "hind site" is ALWAYS 20/20.

What people need to focus on today are the rescue and relief efforts and how they are progressing. I saw a story today on the news about 8 cleveland firefighters who volunteered to help in the rescue efforts. Instead, they are sitting behind desks in FLORIDA taking cultural sensitivity training classes so that they can go to the refugee camps in Huston, and wherever else they are. These are people with rescue training and experience...and they are being held back by red tape. Red tape is what we should all be mad at...not the politics. LOL.

(please forgive my spelling...it is late and kids won't sleep)

Emotion > Logic: The Democrat Way

:rolleyes: Well, well, well, Neo Roglia, we gotta stop meeting like this, people are starting to talk. Anyway: 1) the logical way isn't always the moral and just way and 2) over-generalise like a partisan running woman apoligist much? Oh, and 3), just to counter you: Money and Corparatism>The Greater Overall Good: The Republican Way (See? Not very nice, is it?) :D

Hey, Stinky.

I thought you were banned a while ago for being a jerk (which you are BTW). I can't say I'm glad to see you back...
Aww, yur hate is sooooo cute.
:fluffle:

Sad, pathetic, and pitiful.
Ok, so let me get this one straight. The senator from LA, having seen a chunk of her home state, and its most famous city, destroyed, having become fed up with the massive spin the White House is putting on in order to deflect blaim from the Administration for slow federal responce, and having seen said federal responce being more about LOOKING like they're doing something instead of actually doing something; proceeds to note that state and local levels responded as best they could under the circumstances and that anyone saying otherwise would get a black eye from her.

And since that anyone was including the president, you feel this is just politics.

YOU are accusing HER of partisan politics? :rolleyes:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054594

"If one person criticizes them or says one more thing - including the president of the United States - he will hear from me," she said on the ABC program. "One more word about it after this show airs and I might likely have to punch him. Literally."


Sad, pathetic, and pitiful.

O, I dunno! We *could* interpret this meltdown to mean that she's tired of being a Senator and would rather be a professional prizefighter. So let's put her in a ring with Mike Tyson and give her job to someone who's actually interested in doing a Senator's work in return for a Senator's pay. ;)

"The President could have funded it," she said. "He cut it out of the budget. Is that the most pitiful sight you have ever seen in your life? One little crane."

Oh, Senator, you are the one who votes to approve the budget, why were there no concerns then?

What? You're asking a politician, especially a *liberal* politician to admit that they screwed up? Ain't gonna happen! :p

That said, I will note that given that the politicos of New Orleans let 156+ buses go underwater rather than bother to use them I'm not so sure they'd do that well with a crane either. Oh dear! Now I've implied that the screwups whom the Senator loves were less than perfect. I guess that means she'll now show up on my doorstep to try to beat me up. :rolleyes:

Just remember Senator that if you want to rumble with *me* I'll insist on Pankraton rules and traditional Greek garb for the occasion. :D

Why is everyone blaming people? We should be focused on the future now, not the past. Instead of trying to make a scape-goat, so we can feel good about ourselves in general, how about we realize that few of us expected this, and that we should be putting more money and manpower into protecting the US(Not making a jab at bush to make a jab at him).

I'm sure the national guard troops in iraq, and 200B dollars could have done well to help with the aftermath of this catastrophe.

09/06/05 "PoliticalPost.com" -- -- Bush announced today in Washington, according to the Wall Street Journal, that "he will personally lead an investigation into what went wrong with the response to Hurricane Katrina."
Wrong!!!! Not going to happen. Nope!
What the heck! Does he think we are all stupid?
Bush can not investigate himself.

Here are just a few questions that Bush needs to be asked by an independent investigator:

* Why did you wait until Thursday to authorize troops to be sent in to New Orleans
* Why did you think some one whose last job as president of a horse association was the right person to head up FEMA
* Were you aware that Michael Brown was asked to leave his position at the horse association?
* Did you think it was appropriate to hold your press conference in New Orleans in front of 50 helicopters preventing them from flying rescue missions for as much as a half a day?
* Did you think it was appropriate for a hurricane aid station to be built for your photo op in Mississippi only to be torn down within a few hours?
* Do you think it was appropriate to fly into Louisiana on Sunday for a private photo op and not inform the Governor of Louisiana that you were coming?
* Do you think it was a good idea to cut the funding for flood control projects along the gulf coast every year of your presidency.

The ridiculousness of the idea that George Bush would actually lead an investigation into the government's lack of response to Katrina is laughable if it weren't so completely sickening.

Even as recently as a year ago the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers proposed to study how New Orleans could be protected from a catastrophic hurricane, but the Bush administration ordered that the research not be undertaken. A Corps of Engineers Project to strengthen levees and pumping stations saw its funding dry up in 2003 as it was drained into the Iraq war.

In 2004, the Bush administration cut funding requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent. Additional cuts at the beginning of this year (for a total reduction in funding of 44.2 percent since 2001) forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze. The Senate had debated adding funds for fixing New Orleans' levees, but it was too late.

. Another complaint is that there were not enough National Guard troops on hand to protect the peace, because they are all engaged in our battles in Iraq and Afghanistan. How secure does that make you feel when the next catastrophe strikes in your neighborhood, whether it be a terrorist attack, a natural disaster, or a flu epidemic?

You should know that while the major oil companies have pledged $11 million towards relief efforts, these corporations made $72.8 billion last year, making four of them among the 7 most profitable corporations in the world. Even as insurance companies are expecting $25 billion in damage claims from Katrina, gasoline prices rise dramatically, and the oil companies keep making money. Bush's Energy Bill just gave these energy companies the bulk of $14.5 billion in tax breaks. But, of course, oil and gas companies are responsible for 95% of the campaign contributions to the Republicans in the last two presidential elections, giving about $50 million. Exxon-Mobile is the most profitable, making $25.3 billion last year. Oh, did I happen to mention that Exxon Mobil has been the major funder in efforts to discredit global warming predictions, spending at least $8 million dollars on this effort? .

Watch this: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10121.htm

I guess it is reasonable if you are a pathetic partisan senator who only cares about casting blame on the administration. Photo op? When the president was surveying the damage? Would this hag have said that about Clinton when he toured Hurricane disater areas. No.
I remember Republican Senator Jesse Helms saying in the 90s that if Clinton visited him, "he had better bring a bodyguard."

What I want to know is if there's anyone out there - Republican or Democrat - who thinks that it is even remotely appropriate that the head of FEMA is a former head of a horse association with almost no relevant experience, and who couldn't even hold on to his old job.

To my mind Micheal Brown's appointment as head of FEMA shows an almost criminal contempt for FEMA's mission. Is there anyone out there who honestly thinks that his appointment was resonable or even acceptable?

It sickens me to think that the man theoretically in charge of the disaster relief was so poorly qualified. Maybe it's just me, but it seems to me that someone with experience and training in charge would have been able to respond more effectively to prevent loss of human life.

Does anyone have a conceivable justification for putting someone so clearly unqualified in a position of such importance? Do all you republicans out there just think that this is accpetable behaviour from politicians? Do you really think its ok that more people than needed to quite likely died because Bush didn't think FEMA was important enough to merit a competent leader? Frankly, there's plenty of blame to go around, but no matter how you cut it Bush is responsible of negligence at a level I would call criminal.

*Snip*

Ok Globes R Us,

Now that you have went on your Anti-Bush Rant what type of questions should be asked to the Governor of LA (who is incharge of disaster preparedness for her state) and the Mayor of NO? Also what about the Congress? They have questions to answer too. What about FEMA?

You really need to get over your hatred of Bush in order to make an informed opinion on this issue. This isn't entirely Bush's fault. When the investigation is over, I"m sure most of the blame will go to where the Blame is due. That being the Governor of the state as well as the Mayor of NO.

Actually you got it before I edited out. It was the start of an idea that I threw out.

Surveying the damage? Give me a break. It's photo ops.

What does he need to be doing there. His presence causes problems with all the security detail that needs to be setup.

One news blip showed a truck driver sitting idle as he had to wait while the shrub "surveyed" the area.

You are only guessing what that "hag" :rolleyes: would have said if Clinton was in charge.
Are you kidding? Bush was harassed before he ever got down there for "not caring enough" to come find out what the damage was like. And then when he does, "Oes noes! Teh photo op!"

Good grief.

What I want to know is if there's anyone out there - Republican or Democrat - who thinks that it is even remotely appropriate that the head of FEMA is a former head of a horse association with almost no relevant experience, and who couldn't even hold on to his old job.

Does anyone have a conceivable justification for putting someone so clearly unqualified in a position of such importance? Do all you republicans out there just think that this is accpetable behaviour from politicians?
Conceivable justification? Quite possibly.
Michael Brown had been hired as FEMAs general counsel by the director Joe Allbaugh, George Bush's chief of staff when he was Texas governor.
So probably pay-back time for Mikey for having helped ol' GWB back when he was governor. Which is par for the course with this administration.

Conceivable justification? Quite possibly.
Michael Brown had been hired as FEMAs general counsel by the director Joe Allbaugh, George Bush's chief of staff when he was Texas governor.
So probably pay-back time for Mikey for having helped ol' GWB back when he was governor. Which is par for the course with this administration.

The Administrations of Jackson, Grant, Taft, Harding and Nixon combined have yet to yield a more sordid and tragic example of nepotism and irresponsibility that Bush's 2 Terms have in terms of human lives lost or ruined.

Yet as the start of this thread shows, the Busheviks blindly cling to their Messiah and defend him by any means they can come up with, especially tenuously grasped attacks on critics and attempts to demonize or discredit the validity of their points.

"in the early days of the republic...."

they used to get into fist fights all the time on the congressional
floor.

today is tame to what it used to be like.



from what i hear.

the Busheviks blindly cling to their Messiah and defend him by any means they can come up with,



That's it, I'm running for office and the only thing I'm going to say is -

god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god,
etc...

you get my point.

that is Bush's base.
To some of them it would be like questioning god herself.
Guess what, just because someone says the word god all the time,
doesn't mean squat.


a relatively small segment of a couple branches of christianity.
unfortunately 60% of eligible voters do not vote.
Bush won on 20% of eligible voters.
Less if voting age were lowered to 5 like it realitistically should be.
Umm, did I stutter, realistically should be.

That's it, I'm running for office and the only thing I'm going to say is -

god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god, god,
etc...

you get my point.

that is Bush's base.
To some of them it would be like questioning god herself.
Guess what, just because someone says the word god all the time,
doesn't mean squat.


a relatively small segment of a couple branches of christianity.
unfortunately 60% of eligible voters do not vote.
Bush won on 20% of eligible voters.
Less if voting age were lowered to 5 like it realitistically should be.
Umm, did I stutter, realistically should be.

Don't Christians think God is MALE?

Don't Christians think God is MALE?

Last time I checked christians do think of God is a male.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054594

"If one person criticizes them or says one more thing - including the president of the United States - he will hear from me," she said on the ABC program. "One more word about it after this show airs and I might likely have to punch him. Literally."

I guess this is what happens when you are a partisan shill and you are trying to cover your own ass.

Agreed

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054594

"If one person criticizes them or says one more thing - including the president of the United States - he will hear from me," she said on the ABC program. "One more word about it after this show airs and I might likely have to punch him. Literally."


Sad, pathetic, and pitiful.

"The President could have funded it," she said. "He cut it out of the budget. Is that the most pitiful sight you have ever seen in your life? One little crane."

Oh, Senator, you are the one who votes to approve the budget, why were there no concerns then?
Uh huh. And just where has the good Senator been during this entire disaster? Hmmm?

They should take this idiot Senator and Nancy Pelosi and send them to culinary school. Perhaps they could learn to cook and actually be useful for something.

Don't Christians think God is MALE?
No, not if they have sense enough to actually read the Bible. The patriacal society in which most of the Bible was written anthropomorphized God, as do all humans. If God is God, then s/he is sexless, timeless, ageless ... above and outside time and space. This does not sound like a "male God" or a "female God."

Uh huh. And just where has the good Senator been during this entire disaster? Hmmm?

They should take this idiot Senator and Nancy Pelosi and send them to culinary school. Perhaps they could learn to cook and actually be useful for something.
Wow--I guess we can add "sexist" to the list.

Wow--I guess we can add "sexist" to the list.

Nah. Eut has a thing for Nancy. I think he finds her hot. ;)

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054594

"If one person criticizes them or says one more thing - including the president of the United States - he will hear from me," she said on the ABC program. "One more word about it after this show airs and I might likely have to punch him. Literally."


Sad, pathetic, and pitiful.

"The President could have funded it," she said. "He cut it out of the budget. Is that the most pitiful sight you have ever seen in your life? One little crane."

Oh, Senator, you are the one who votes to approve the budget, why were there no concerns then?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/09/0902_050902_katrina_levees.html

Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, chief of engineers for the Corps, dismissed suggestions that recent federal funding decreases or delayed contracts had any impact on levee performance in the face of Katrina's overwhelming force.
Instead he pointed to a danger that many public officials had warned about for years: The system was never designed to withstand a storm of Katrina's strength.

"It was fully recognized by officials that we had Category Three [hurricane] level of protection," Strock said. "As projections of Category Four and Five were made, [officials] began plans to evacuate the city.

"We were just caught by a storm whose intensity exceeded the protection that we had in place."

Uh huh. And just where has the good Senator been during this entire disaster? Hmmm?

Good point!

August 30, 2005
United States Senator Mary L. Landrieu, D-La., joined the governor and other state officials today for a helicopter tour of areas devastated by Hurricane Katrina.

August 31, 2005
'My office in Washington is working around the clock with other members of the appropriations committee including Chairman Thad Cochran of Mississippi to compile a list of anticipated needs for the people of Louisiana and the Gulf Coast..........I have already spoken to Senate leaders Harry Reid and Bill Frist, and they have both offered their full and unwavering support'.

Ah, digging up old threads, I see.

Ah, digging up old threads, I see.

If you mean moi, non, I got those from the good lady's website.

If you mean moi, non, I got those from the good lady's website.

No, not you. The guy that bumped up a dead thread with a comment that contributed nothing to the conversation.

But now that it has risen, post away!

No, not you. The guy that bumped up a dead thread with a comment that contributed nothing to the conversation.

But now that it has risen, post away!


No..........shan't.......you'll argue with me!

No..........shan't.......you'll argue with me!

Oh no you didnt!

*Ghetto head wave*

Oh no you didnt!

*Ghetto head wave*

Oh yes I did!


Enough already.

Oh yes I did!


Enough already.


You started it.

You started it.


Oh no I didn't, you did!

You know, this thread has gotten a lot more entertaining since you two started going at it in here. I'm getting some popcorn.

Oh no I didn't, you did!


You did. You wanted to argue with me.

You know, this thread has gotten a lot more entertaining since you two started going at it in here. I'm getting some popcorn.


Oh no you're not!

Oh no you're not!

Yes he is. I'm looking in his window now. He does have popcorn.

You did. You wanted to argue with me.

Didn't









Didn't













Didn't











Didn't
















Didn't









http://www.comicstore24.de/images/products/05441.jpg

Oh no you're not!
Hey now, this isn't about me. This is about you. :D

Hey now, this isn't about me. This is about you. :D


Oh no it's not!








That's it, I'm off..................g'night.

Didn't
*massive snippage*


YARG!! You did. Blasphemer!

Will you 2 knock it off before I go to a moderator asking for a lock on this thread because it really isn't helping the discussion.

Will you 2 knock it off before I go to a moderator asking for a lock on this thread because it really isn't helping the discussion.

Jeez, Corneliu, look at the times. This was 3 hours ago. Lighten up.

Besides, it's not like this thread was going anywhere constructive, anyway.

Will you 2 knock it off before I go to a moderator asking for a lock on this thread because it really isn't helping the discussion.

There was no 'discussion' going on for some time. If you can't enjoy a light moment of comic relief, fuck off and do your brown-nose job.

Will you 2 knock it off before I go to a moderator asking for a lock on this thread because it really isn't helping the discussion.

Why?

That was probably the smartest exchange in this thread....

I guess it is reasonable if you are a pathetic partisan senator who only cares about casting blame on the administration. Photo op? When the president was surveying the damage? Would this hag have said that about Clinton when he toured Hurricane disater areas. No.

Would Clinton have tied up the Fire Dept. with distributing flyers saying what a good job FEMA was doing instead of having them out there working on actual disaster relief? No.

He was photo-opping.

Will you 2 knock it off before I go to a moderator asking for a lock on this thread because it really isn't helping the discussion.
There wasn't much of a discussion going on here when the thread started--this is practically philosophy by comparison.