NationStates Jolt Archive

...and it's because they're supposed to be a force within the country in situations that require military intervention. In case you haven't noticed, the biggest problem facing the recovery effort is the lack of capable personell needed to distribute food and goods to refugees. If Bush hadn't sent half of them over to Iraq to help speed up the killing of innocents, then maybe fewer civilians would have died in Iraq AND Louisiana.

Comments?

Actually, I don't think that much would have been different. This was a huge mess at all levels. Having more National Guardsmen wouldn't have changed that unless martial law had been declared.

What would have changed is the situation in Iraq. Perhaps you do not realize this, but to the best of my knowledge, far more innocents are being killed over there by Iraqi bombers in pizza shops or whatever, than by National Guardsmen. We are not there to kill innocents. We are there to prevent that. Whatever the reasons for the war, whether or not you agree with the reasons, we are over there, and the only way to get out is to make the situation better. This cannot be done with fewer troops.

Actually, I don't think that much would have been different. This was a huge mess at all levels. Having more National Guardsmen wouldn't have changed that unless martial law had been declared.
Having some of the NG providing security inside the Superdome -and Convention centers- would have made a great difference.

There are more than enough National Guardsmen still in the US to have provided that security. The problem is a giant cock-up in administration and disaster management.

Originally posted by OceanDrive2
Having some of the NG providing security inside the Superdome...and Convention centers would have made a great difference.

This is true. However, there were already Guardsmen in the area. That they were not used in the proper manner would not be solved by there being more of them there to be not used.

The GOVERNER is responsible for alerting the guard in thier own state. The governers can request support from all the other states to provide services that are not availible in their own states.

WHY WASN'T THE GUARD CALLED BEFORE THE HURRICAIN HIT?

The NG's responsibilities are not limited to assisting in the control of Martial Law. They need to be there to help dole out supplies and food to the refugees. There aren't enough volunteers in the world to make this easy, so there needs to be as much help as possible.

I have friends doing work with the Red Cross in New Orleans now and they've told me repeatedly that the biggest problem at the moment is the lack of people there to hand out supplies. They need the NG there to support the Red Cross volunteers and keep everybody safe, as well. Unless we're letting New Orleans fall into a state of anarchy (which is seems Bush is headed towards...), we need the NG there to restore order and stop the senseless acts of violence that we keep hearing about. Firefights on the streets, shootings in the Superdome...these cannot be prevented by Red Cross volunteers. Bring our boys (and girls!) home.

Your flaming. There are plenty of threads on this.

The GOVERNER is responsible for alerting the guard in thier own state. The governers can request support from all the other states to provide services that are not availible in their own states.

WHY WASN'T THE GUARD CALLED BEFORE THE HURRICAIN HIT?
I believe she asked for help on the 26th.

Having some of the NG providing security inside the Superdome...and Convention centers would have made a great difference.
And had the governer ordered the ones she had BEFORE the hurricane to do this it may have occurred. She didn't properly mobilize the ones she did have until AFTER the hurricane hit. Why the hell should she be given control of more.

I believe she asked for help on the 26th.
Sooo, she didn't utilize her own guard units. There were still plenty left in state to take care of New Orleans had she been methodical about it. Instead both she and Nagin ran around like headless chickens.

What about the NO police?

Sooo, she didn't utilize her own guard units. There were still plenty left in state to take care of New Orleans had she been methodical about it. Instead both she and Nagin ran around like headless chickens.
Even if they had moved quicker, it most likely wouldn't have been quick enough. Everyone, from the bottom up, fucked up. (pardon my language bookworms)

However, to quote: "...The state resources were being overwhelmed, and we needed direct federal assistance, command and control, and security -- all three of which are lacking."

This is true. However, there were already Guardsmen in the area. That they were not used in the proper manner would not be solved by there being more of them there to be not used.some say they were not used at all...(the first days)

What about the NO police?They failed too... most of them did quit...or simply did not show up.
But,
NO police and fire Dept...lost most of theirs resources...communications, vehicles etc...

More important...they have homes and families directly hit by the Hurricane...

...excuses the Military cant use.

They failed too... most of them did quit...or simply did not show up.
But,
NO police and fire Dept...lost most of theirs resources...communications, vehicles etc...

More important...they have homes and families directly hit by the Hurricane...

...excuses the Military cant use.
or at least shouldn't, even if they are true which could be the case with Louisiana NG

Originally Posted by OceanDrive2
...excuses the Military cant use.

I don't recall them using any of these excuses.

I agree with Sick Dreams - there are plenty of threads encompassing this topic already.

What you americans need, or needed, is a SES, or State Emergency Services. It's an Australian Volunteer Organsiation that is trained solely to assist in emergency such as flooding, storms, disasters, etc.
To be fair, this is not really Bush's fault, but ultimately the blame has to fall somewhere for you guys

What you americans need, or needed, is a SES, or State Emergency Services. It's an Australian Volunteer Organsiation that is trained solely to assist in emergency such as flooding, storms, disasters, etc.
To be fair, this is not really Bush's fault, but ultimately the blame has to fall somewhere for you guys

We do, it's called FEMA. They had thousands on the ground ready to go as the hurricane approached. They have done a spectacular job in Mississippi and Alabama who were actually hit harder than New Orleans. N.O. got screwed later in the week when the levees subsequently broke and by the violence which kept non-military aid from getting in at all. The environment needs to be safe and secure as possible before FEMA or the Red Cross will go in harms way.

The levees broke late Tuesday/early Wednesday and calls go to the Federal government for additional (military) aid on Wednesday. Troops show up around 48 hours later on Friday. The response after the request really wasn't that slow although the media likes to pretend otherwise.

People seem to forget that the initial assessment for N.O wasn't that bad and that the Hurricane had veered east and spared the direct hit. It wasn't until the breeches in the levee system flooded 80% of the place that things got out of control. So essentially a reassessment occurs, help is called for, help is provided at the best pace it possibly could.

I believe she asked for help on the 26th.

Mighigan had a few hundred NG MPs ready to roll by Tuesday but a request for them from Louisina didn't come till late Wednesday. Mississippi made a request for Michigan NG the day before on Tuesday.

...and it's because they're supposed to be a force within the country in situations that require military intervention. In case you haven't noticed, the biggest problem facing the recovery effort is the lack of capable personell needed to distribute food and goods to refugees. If Bush hadn't sent half of them over to Iraq to help speed up the killing of innocents, then maybe fewer civilians would have died in Iraq AND Louisiana.

Comments?
Look into the difference between National Guard Units and US Army reserve units. Then look into the constitutional restrictions on the deploymentg of the US Army for security and Law enforcement purposes within US borders. Come back and edit your posat as you see fit.

I think when it comes down to it, we have to blame the fuckup on the Governor and FEMA, with some secondary responsibility to Bush for putting a guy with no disaster experience in charge of FEMA. It is the Governor's responsibility to mobilize the guard units, which she should have done back on the 26th. On the other hand, the FEMA chief should have been on the phone with her five times a day asking her if the guard is being deployed, if supplies are being gathered outside the city, etc. What else does he have to do? There were no other disasters going on in the country at the time. This IS his job. Nagin wasn't that great but he had nothing to work with.

So basically a Democrat and a Republican collaborated to screw this up. Typical. :headbang:

Look into the difference between National Guard Units and US Army reserve units. Then look into the constitutional restrictions on the deploymentg of the US Army for security and Law enforcement purposes within US borders. Come back and edit your posat as you see fit.
That's not in the Constitution. It's Federal Law but it actually states that the President can suspend the law in an emergency. It happened in 1992 during the L.A. Riots.

That's not in the Constitution. It's Federal Law but it actually states that the President can suspend the law in an emergency. It happened in 1992 during the L.A. Riots.

The Stafford Act allows the use of regular military to restore order but there where no major riots going on in NO and what was happening was well withing the capablities of the NG and police to control.

That's not in the Constitution. It's Federal Law but it actually states that the President can suspend the law in an emergency. It happened in 1992 during the L.A. Riots.
I know a little about the law to which you are refering.The Constitution covers this as well. It is with Martial Law. I can't remember the exact words but it says something to the effect that civil authority cannpt be suspended unless rebellion or invasion makes it neccessary for public safety. Those are the only circumstances mentioned.

We do, it's called FEMA. They had thousands on the ground ready to go as the hurricane approached. They have done a spectacular job in Mississippi and Alabama who were actually hit harder than New Orleans. N.O. got screwed later in the week when the levees subsequently broke and by the violence which kept non-military aid from getting in at all. The environment needs to be safe and secure as possible before FEMA or the Red Cross will go in harms way.

The levees broke late Tuesday/early Wednesday and calls go to the Federal government for additional (military) aid on Wednesday. Troops show up around 48 hours later on Friday. The response after the request really wasn't that slow although the media likes to pretend otherwise.

People seem to forget that the initial assessment for N.O wasn't that bad and that the Hurricane had veered east and spared the direct hit. It wasn't until the breeches in the levee system flooded 80% of the place that things got out of control. So essentially a reassessment occurs, help is called for, help is provided at the best pace it possibly could.


Your post describes the sequence of events quite well.

Actually, I don't think that much would have been different. This was a huge mess at all levels. Having more National Guardsmen wouldn't have changed that unless martial law had been declared.

What would have changed is the situation in Iraq. Perhaps you do not realize this, but to the best of my knowledge, far more innocents are being killed over there by Iraqi bombers in pizza shops or whatever, than by National Guardsmen. We are not there to kill innocents. We are there to prevent that. Whatever the reasons for the war, whether or not you agree with the reasons, we are over there, and the only way to get out is to make the situation better. This cannot be done with fewer troops.

a british soldier i met would beg to differ, american soldiers shooot at what moves when they are nervose, the bbc an channel four have documented this well too. infact the american army are world famouse for shooting innocents and the iraqis are killing more innocents cos of the americans presence too...sort of indirect killing of innocents?

We do, it's called FEMA. They had thousands on the ground ready to go as the hurricane approached. They have done a spectacular job in Mississippi and Alabama who were actually hit harder than New Orleans. N.O. got screwed later in the week when the levees subsequently broke and by the violence which kept non-military aid from getting in at all. The environment needs to be safe and secure as possible before FEMA or the Red Cross will go in harms way.

The levees broke late Tuesday/early Wednesday and calls go to the Federal government for additional (military) aid on Wednesday. Troops show up around 48 hours later on Friday. The response after the request really wasn't that slow although the media likes to pretend otherwise.

People seem to forget that the initial assessment for N.O wasn't that bad and that the Hurricane had veered east and spared the direct hit. It wasn't until the breeches in the levee system flooded 80% of the place that things got out of control. So essentially a reassessment occurs, help is called for, help is provided at the best pace it possibly could.

F.E.M.A. is still a federal organisation. A S.E.S. group does not need to wait, it gets in there and in this case would already be in there as they are volunteers, and hence still part of the community. The contribution of F.E.M.A. has unfortunately being glossed over in a lot of media, especially internationally.
But the S.E.S. is how pretty much all emergencies of this style are handled in Australia, due to the apparent absence of a F.E.M.A. equivalent. Here you pretty much have the Police, Fire Fighters, Ambulances and S.E.S.

Mighigan had a few hundred NG MPs ready to roll by Tuesday but a request for them from Louisina didn't come till late Wednesday. Mississippi made a request for Michigan NG the day before on Tuesday.

Iowa national guard units whose specialties were medical, engineers and logistics were put on alert by our own governor on sunday, to make sure that we were ready to send support as soon as it was requested.

Why wasn't the ground work put in place to the get the NG in there as soon as the winds and rain dropped below dangerous levels?

a british soldier i met would beg to differ, american soldiers shooot at what moves when they are nervose, the bbc an channel four have documented this well too. infact the american army are world famouse for shooting innocents and the iraqis are killing more innocents cos of the americans presence too...sort of indirect killing of innocents?

Have you seen this directly, or our you going just going off of media coverage?

Ohio's (moron) governor Bob Taft had offered up our National Guard helicopters and troops before the storm to help out, but the governor of Louisiana didn't complete the paperwork until it was too late.

I know a little about the law to which you are refering.The Constitution covers this as well. It is with Martial Law. I can't remember the exact words but it says something to the effect that civil authority cannpt be suspended unless rebellion or invasion makes it neccessary for public safety. Those are the only circumstances mentioned.
I'm not a constitutional scholar, but I just reread the thing now and I can't find that anywhere. And if it did, that's not what's occurring here. We're talking about them going in to rescue people. Civil Authority was suspended by the hurricane and flooding.

The Stafford Act allows the use of regular military to restore order but there where no major riots going on in NO and what was happening was well withing the capablities of the NG and police to control.
Well, the president's ability to suspend Posse Comitatus in an emergency are well established in law.

But you're right, it is irrelevant because there are enough National Guard units to do the job, they just weren't mobilized.

a british soldier i met would beg to differ, american soldiers shooot at what moves when they are nervose, the bbc an channel four have documented this well too. infact the american army are world famouse for shooting innocents and the iraqis are killing more innocents cos of the americans presence too...sort of indirect killing of innocents?
And an American soldier I know would beg to differ with you, and now, because his unit held their fire, they received an RPG hit to a nearby car and he will be limping for the rest of his life.

Iowa national guard units whose specialties were medical, engineers and logistics were put on alert by our own governor on sunday, to make sure that we were ready to send support as soon as it was requested.

Why wasn't the ground work put in place to the get the NG in there as soon as the winds and rain dropped below dangerous levels?

I think it may have something to do with hoping Katrina would miss NO as so many other huricanes in the past have. Katrina was a cat 1 hurricane when it hit Florida on a Thursday and went up to a cat 2 on Friday. By Saturday, it became a cat 3 which the levees of NO were desinged to handle. However, on Sunday, Katrina was upgraded to a cat 4 then a cat 5.

President Bush called Governor Blanco on Sunday asking her to evacuate New Orleans but by then, it was too late.

Well, the president's ability to suspend Posse Comitatus in an emergency are well established in law.

But you're right, it is irrelevant because there are enough National Guard units to do the job, they just weren't mobilized.

Many NG units were mobilized and ready to go but for some reason I don't know of, they were not sent into NO for a few days.

I'm not a constitutional scholar, but I just reread the thing now and I can't find that anywhere. And if it did, that's not what's occurring here. We're talking about them going in to rescue people. Civil Authority was suspended by the hurricane and flooding.
not a constitutional scholar either and civil authority refers to the civilian government and administration of states and there are very specific reasons this can be broken.

Many NG units were mobilized and ready to go but for some reason I don't know of, they were not sent into NO for a few days.

Because one state cannot send its guard units into another state to conduct operations without being requested by the states governor and the command structure set.

To clear up my original post, the National Guard are basically state militias under the authority of the governor of thier state they haven't and cannot be sent by Bush anywhere, they aren't under his command. You mistook Army Reserve units, some of which are in Iraq for National Guardsmen. Agree with the war in Iraq or not it has as much effect on this situation as I do, very little.

I think it may have something to do with hoping Katrina would miss NO as so many other huricanes in the past have. Katrina was a cat 1 hurricane when it hit Florida on a Thursday and went up to a cat 2 on Friday. By Saturday, it became a cat 3 which the levees of NO were desinged to handle. However, on Sunday, Katrina was upgraded to a cat 4 then a cat 5.

President Bush called Governor Blanco on Sunday asking her to evacuate New Orleans but by then, it was too late.

It takes nothing to call up other governors and say "this looks bad. Do you have any engineer, medical, logistics, transportion units availible and can you have troops ready to roll this way just in case the worst happens?"

Its not the federal governments responsiblity to but into local affairs without being invited. Bush never should have had to make that call.

To clear up my original post, the National Guard are basically state militias under the authority of the governor of thier state they haven't and cannot be sent by Bush anywhere, they aren't under his command. You mistook Army Reserve units, some of which are in Iraq for National Guardsmen. Agree with the war in Iraq or not it has as much effect on this situation as I do, very little.

National guard units are under state control first and federal control second. There are a lot of guard troops in iraq and afganistan, but in the case of natural disasters within the borders of the US it is the governors responsibility to issue the orders.

not a constitutional scholar either and civil authority refers to the civilian government and administration of states and there are very specific reasons this can be broken.
But we're talking about emergency disaster relief. The Stafford Act explicitly authorizes it in that circumstance. http://www.fema.gov/library/stafact.shtm

...and it's because they're supposed to be a force within the country in situations that require military intervention. In case you haven't noticed, the biggest problem facing the recovery effort is the lack of capable personell needed to distribute food and goods to refugees. If Bush hadn't sent half of them over to Iraq to help speed up the killing of innocents, then maybe fewer civilians would have died in Iraq AND Louisiana.

Comments?
I don't understand very much about the military, so I must admit I have been quite confused by the number of National Guardsmen that have been sent to foreign soil. Isn't the point of the National Guard to, erm, guard our nation? Why not send the other branches of the military abroad, and leave the specialized America-guarding folks here in America?

Or have we finally just outright admitted that we are annexing Iraq, and thus it counts as part of our nation?

I don't understand very much about the military, so I must admit I have been quite confused by the number of National Guardsmen that have been sent to foreign soil. Isn't the point of the National Guard to, erm, guard our nation? Why not send the other branches of the military abroad, and leave the specialized America-guarding folks here in America?

Or have we finally just outright admitted that we are annexing Iraq, and thus it counts as part of our nation?

The national guard was originally designed to be the first response to an invasion. Its roll has changed greatly in the last 30 years.

There are 2 major reasons that the Guard is sent over seas right now. One is post Vietnam backlash, taking away a place that people could hide out from in a time of conflict. The other is the Clinton re-organization, which gutted the active dutiy military and made it impossible for our active componets to deploy with out guard and reserve components.