NationStates Jolt Archive

I am presently watching a broadcast on Channel 4 (UK for any americans), upon the subject of the convictions and lifestyle of Sheikh Omar Bakri, an objectionable individual who, despite applying for British citizenship and proposing to live from benefits money, has a pronounced revulsion for western culture. Irrespective of the inherent hypocrisy of such sentiments, I would be delighted to play host to any opinions as to Bakri, and other such individuals.

Get rid of them, if they preach hate about us, and then go to the dole office to live off my tax money, he can go.

He's not the one who declares fatwas on everyone is he? I saw a great Aussie show involving a Muslim cleric in the UK who seemed to think the Ayatollah was too moderate.

He's not the one who declares fatwas on everyone is he? I saw a great Aussie show involving a Muslim cleric in the UK who seemed to think the Ayatollah was too moderate.

He did just propose to replace the Union Jack with an Islamic flag....

In the UNITED KINGDOM

Freedom of Speech sucks ass, don't it? Especially when it's something you don't like. Yep ... I think I'll start a campaign to launch anyone who disagrees with me off the planet in a big rocket. They don't deserve to breathe my air.

Damn Freedoms ... they just get in everyone's way.

In a free society it is his sovreign, irrefutable right to pronounce a revulsion for whatever he deems revolting.

Only when it comes to advocating hate/violence is there an issue.

But if it's just because he doesn't like the British Government or culture, then removing/assailing him amounts to attempted thought control.

Freedom of Speech sucks ass, don't it? Especially when it's something you don't like. Yep ... I think I'll start a campaign to launch anyone who disagrees with me off the planet in a big rocket. They don't deserve to breathe my air.

Damn Freedoms ... they just get in everyone's way.

:)

Hit it right before me.

The moment that a government starts to take away rights from people for dissent is the moment that they start the slippery slide into thought control and totalitarianism.

Freedom of Speech sucks ass, don't it? Especially when it's something you don't like. Yep ... I think I'll start a campaign to launch anyone who disagrees with me off the planet in a big rocket. They don't deserve to breathe my air.

Damn Freedoms ... they just get in everyone's way.

Yeah, freedom of speech should not be conditional on where you were born, or anything else for that matter.

To paraphrase Bill Hicks, anyone... dumb enough... to move to a country they hate should be allowed in. Especially people who say ridiculous things like this Sheik. He isn't going to be taken seriously, although unfortunately it reflects badly on the sane Muslims.

He did just propose to replace the Union Jack with an Islamic flag....



It's the union flag when its not on a ship, and he is a bit of a tit as well, although abu hamza (captain hook) is the worst.

Indeed, Abu Hamza is a hypocrite who thinks that it is alright to adopt the moral standards of your mortal enemies. I say let them stay where we can keep an eye on them, ie in dear old Blighty.

Since when has the UK had any laws that give a person an inalienable right to free speech?

Deport the terrorist-supporting, hate-preaching fool.

In a free society it is his sovreign, irrefutable right to pronounce a revulsion for whatever he deems revolting.

Only when it comes to advocating hate/violence is there an issue.

But if it's just because he doesn't like the British Government or culture, then removing/assailing him amounts to attempted thought control.

In which case I apologise profusely for daring to consider that an individual who has a pronounced intention to usurp the governemnt and devolve British culture into an Islamic, regressed state.

Since when has the UK had any laws that give a person an inalienable right to free speech?

Deport the terrorist-supporting, hate-preaching fool.

Here here :D


We dont have a constitution, so, we can make up laws as we go along here, which is a good and a bad thing, depends on your view.

Since when has the UK had any laws that give a person an inalienable right to free speech?

Deport the terrorist-supporting, hate-preaching fool.

I'd rather hang him in Trafalger Square....

I'd rather hang him in Trafalger Square....

I'd rather throw him in Gitmo, killing him is too painless...

I'd rather hang him in Trafalger Square....

Or hung drawn and quatered, like we did to terroists 400 years ago (guy fawkes)

OK, maybe a bit to extereme but, seeing him go is enough. Oh , and the EU moaning about there human rights, i care more for the rights of innocent, non hate preaching people.

It's the union flag when its not on a ship, and he is a bit of a tit as well, although abu hamza (captain hook) is the worst.

Yaarh, he should plough the ocean waves at the head of an Islamic pirate fleet.... :D

Since when has the UK had any laws that give a person an inalienable right to free speech?
The 1998 Human Rights Act contains a right of free speech, via article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

The 1998 Human Rights Act contains a right of free speech, via article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

theres always one... :rolleyes:

Indeed, I R with some of the earlier points.

I've heard very little from him that's particularly surprising, and nothing that's shocking. I mean, by preaching that he'd like Britain to become an Islamic state? Whoopee. I want Britain to become a Christian (preferably C of E) state, and I've gone out on street corners trying to evangelise. Generally not very succesfully, but it's not exactly quantifiable (30 minutes preaching from Revelation 4 will win me 2 new souls and +2 to my public-speaking skill?), so I don't actually know. But the desire to see nations, or even (let's be radical) the whole world, converted is quite a basic tenet of most religions around. Not exactly scandalous.

He receives grants from the government and got an NHS-funded heart op?! Oh noes! So could you if you were in his position. He is entitled to the large car and the welfare support, it's not as if he's actually stealing them at gunpoint. Blame the government for having so many grants? But if some were withdrawn, then lots of thoroughly normal people would suffer.

theres always one... :rolleyes:
One what?

One what?

Person with a sane opinion, I mean YAWN...

Indeed, I R with some of the earlier points.

I've heard very little from him that's particularly surprising, and nothing that's shocking. I mean, by preaching that he'd like Britain to become an Islamic state? Whoopee. I want Britain to become a Christian (preferably C of E) state, and I've gone out on street corners trying to evangelise. Generally not very succesfully, but it's not exactly quantifiable (30 minutes preaching from Revelation 4 will win me 2 new souls and +2 to my public-speaking skill?), so I don't actually know. But the desire to see nations, or even (let's be radical) the whole world, converted is quite a basic tenet of most religions around. Not exactly scandalous.

He receives grants from the government and got an NHS-funded heart op?! Oh noes! So could you if you were in his position. He is entitled to the large car and the welfare support, it's not as if he's actually stealing them at gunpoint. Blame the government for having so many grants? But if some were withdrawn, then lots of thoroughly normal people would suffer.

Its the inherent anti-British sentiments I find disturbing, he is an advocate of indiscriminately slaughtering western populaces to serve his own ends, but percieves our occupation in Iraq as an infringement upon their civil rights.
He ought not to be granted benefits or asylum, only our unyielding contempt and disdain.

I like this shiek guy. Anyone that preches hatred of bush is a great guy in my book.

In which case I apologise profusely for daring to consider that an individual who has a pronounced intention to usurp the governemnt and devolve British culture into an Islamic, regressed state.

You do realize in my assertion of my position I specifically left that option open, should that be what this is about, by saying advocating violence/hate is a different story.

I don't know this Sheik, but all you told me about him is that he "prounounces revulsion for western culture." That my good chap falls under freedom of speech, thought and conscience.

If he really does advocate violence against westerners, then like I said, that is a different story.

I like this shiek guy. Anyone that preches hatred of bush is a great guy in my book.
Glad to see you agree with violence against western democracies.

-snip-
Hasn't Bakri already left the UK?

And it was rumoured that Bakri had worked with MI6 some time ago... If it is true, then it is understandable why he lived in Britain from state benefits.

I think the government should round up all those terrorist bastards and line em up against a rule and shoot them in their heart that hates the west, as for suggersting to replace the Union Jack with an islamic flag wtf!!!! thats such a stupid bloody suggestion if he dont like the flag he can get the f**k out of the country which if i remember he did when i was on holiday :sniper:

I think the government should round up all those terrorist bastards and line em up against a rule and shoot them in their heart that hates the west, as for suggersting to replace the Union Jack with an islamic flag wtf!!!! thats such a stupid bloody suggestion if he dont like the flag he can get the f**k out of the country which if i remember he did when i was on holiday :sniper:

Ummm.... welcome to Nationstates!

I think the government should round up all those terrorist bastards and line em up against a rule and shoot them in their heart that hates the west, as for suggersting to replace the Union Jack with an islamic flag wtf!!!! thats such a stupid bloody suggestion if he dont like the flag he can get the f**k out of the country which if i remember he did when i was on holiday :sniper:

Terrorist bastards=people who criticise the country?

Wow, I'll sure be moving to the UK if they put in those enlightened laws!

I can't believe some people are sticking up for Omar Bakri in the name of freedom of speech.

Bakri, apart from being/been a member of known terrorist organisations like Muslim brotherhood and Hizbut Tahrir, he has also founded the Al-Muhajroun organisation.

His Al-Muhajiroun group was actually a front for Hizbut Tahrir, an organization which has a stated goal of subverting democracies and installing a caliphate, since it does not believe in democracy. More about HT here, scroll to the bottom few posts (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=434314&page=3&pp=15)



The guy has even a wikipage on him with these quotes attributed to him

The life of an unbeliever has no value, it has no sanctity

Yeah, let's protect his freedom to spread this. :rolleyes:

But the chap is smart. Before being ignominously deported, he scooted away, leaving his large family of wives and kids (more than 20 members IIRC) behind who will be living on the dole like ..forever... :D

I can't believe some people are sticking up for Omar Bakri in the name of freedom of speech.
I would rather stick up for the freedom of speech of a hatemongerer than deny freedom of speech to those I don't like and be a fascist.

I can't believe some people are sticking up for Omar Bakri in the name of freedom of speech.

Bakri, apart from being/been a member of known terrorist organisations like Muslim brotherhood and Hizbut Tahrir, he has also founded the Al-Muhajroun organisation.

His Al-Muhajiroun group was actually a front for Hizbut Tahrir, an organization which has a stated goal of subverting democracies and installing a caliphate, since it does not believe in democracy. More about HT here, scroll to the bottom few posts (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=434314&page=3&pp=15)



The guy has even a wikipage on him with these quotes attributed to him



Yeah, let's protect his freedom to spread this. :rolleyes:

But the chap is smart. Before being ignominously deported, he scooted away, leaving his large family of wives and kids (more than 20 members IIRC) behind who will be living on the dole like ..forever... :D

I hadn't heard of him before this post, my opinions are just based on what I've seen here, which pretty much just include saying mean things about the UK and recommending that its flag change to a Muslim one. Basically, too ridiculous to take seriously. Supporting and inciting violence are different, and I would argue are not examples of free speech, but people can criticise the country they live in if they want.

I would rather stick up for the freedom of speech of a hatemongerer than deny freedom of speech to those I don't like and be a fascist.

Even the freedom of speech of a fascist ?

Even the freedom of speech of a fascist ?
Yup. To do anything else makes you just as bad as them.

I hadn't heard of him before this post, my opinions are just based on what I've seen here, which pretty much just include saying mean things about the UK and recommending that its flag change to a Muslim one.


It is far too bigger than what is being said in this thread.

Please read more about his speeches, his organization Al-Muhajiroun, his previous organizations Hizbut Tahrir and Muslim Brotherhood and his ideology and what are the methods he advocates to attain that ideology etc, before coming to his defense.


Basically, too ridiculous to take seriously.

LOL.

The problem is there are some people who take his words seriously. It is ridiculous to you and me. Not for his followers.

It can be said that alienation and radicalisation of muslim youth in Europe is partly due to the speeches and sermons conducted by people like Bakri inside mosques.

Supporting and inciting violence are different, and I would argue are not examples of free speech, but people can criticise the country they live in if they want.

Bakri says that Britain should become a Islamic country. Fair enough. It is his opinion.

Bakri also says that Jihad is duty of a muslim as per Koran. Fair enough, if that's what Koran says and it is his religious freedom.

Bakri also says that the life of an unbeliever has no value, it has no sanctity. OK , this too can be allowed as his freedom to speak.

But the idiot who listens to this puts them together and bombs the infidel.

Is it still freedom of speech and religion ?

It is far too bigger than what is being said in this thread.

Please read more about his speeches, his organization Al-Muhajiroun, his previous organizations Hizbut Tahrir and Muslim Brotherhood and his ideology and what are the methods he advocates to attain that ideology etc, before coming to his defense.



LOL.

The problem is there are some people who take his words seriously. It is ridiculous to you and me. Not for his followers.

It can be said that alienation and radicalisation of muslim youth in Europe is partly due to the speeches and sermons conducted by people like Bakri inside mosques.



Bakri says that Britain should become a Islamic country. Fair enough. It is his opinion.

Bakri also says that Jihad is duty of a muslim as per Koran. Fair enough, if that's what Koran says and it is his religious freedom.

Bakri also says that the life of an unbeliever has no value, it has no sanctity. OK , this too can be allowed as his freedom to speak.

But the idiot who listens to this puts them together and bombs the infidel.

Is it still freedom of speech and religion ?

Yep.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concepts.

The bomber, of course, should be stopped. Bakri's words are protected. Nothing you have attributed to Bakri would amount to "fighting words" or direct immediate invocation of violence.

It sounds from what you say that Bakri may have done some things for which he could be punished in terms of terrorism, but nothing you have said that he said is beyond the pale.

People on these very forums decry unbelievers all the time. Do we hunt all of them down too?

I can't believe some people are sticking up for Omar Bakri in the name of freedom of speech.

Bakri, apart from being/been a member of known terrorist organisations like Muslim brotherhood and Hizbut Tahrir, he has also founded the Al-Muhajroun organisation.

His Al-Muhajiroun group was actually a front for Hizbut Tahrir, an organization which has a stated goal of subverting democracies and installing a caliphate, since it does not believe in democracy. More about HT here, scroll to the bottom few posts (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=434314&page=3&pp=15)



The guy has even a wikipage on him with these quotes attributed to him



Yeah, let's protect his freedom to spread this. :rolleyes:

But the chap is smart. Before being ignominously deported, he scooted away, leaving his large family of wives and kids (more than 20 members IIRC) behind who will be living on the dole like ..forever... :D

According to Wikipedia:

On August 6, 2005 he was reported to have fled the United Kingdom after rumours that the UK Government was planning to investigate him (as well as other clerics) under little-used treason laws. [3] On August 11, 2005 he was arrested in Lebanon. [4] He will now be barred from returning to the United Kingdom. [5]. He was released in Lebanon without charge, on orders from Lebanon's General Prosecutor Said Mirzaa, who according to Lebanese newspapers was ordered by Britain's Secret Intelligence Service MI6. Analysts believe that keeping him in Lebanon saves the British government having the embarassment of a radical extremist operating on British soil with tighter legislation now being put into place. Possible public pressure could lead to arrest and thus render an active MI6 asset ineffective, whilst in Lebanon he can be put to better use. [6].

The July 29 edition of FOX News Channel's Day Side programme revealed that the so called mastermind of the 7/7 London Bombings, Haroon Rashid Aswat linked to Omar Bakri Muhammad, is a British Intelligence Asset. Former Justice Dept. prosecutor and Terror expert John Loftus revealed that Al-Muhajiroun had formed during the Kosovo crisis, during which Fundamentalist Muslim Leaders were recruited by MI6 to fight in Kosovo.

Loftus stated that "..back in the late 1990s, the leaders all worked for British intelligence in Kosovo. Believe it or not, British intelligence actually hired some Al-Qaeda guys to help defend the Muslim rights in Albania and in Kosovo. That's when Al-Muhajiroun got started." [7]

So, according to your own sources, Bakri was and is an MI6 asset, as are most of the "nefarious" groups to which you linked him.

EDIT: Also, for all those slavering for him to be deported, he is already barred from the UK. :headbang:

Yep.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concepts.


That was below the belt and unnecessary. :)


The bomber, of course, should be stopped. Bakri's words are protected. Nothing you have attributed to Bakri would amount to "fighting words" or direct immediate invocation of violence.

Immediate invocation, no.

But he is not blameless either.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1121222/posts
THEN he met Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammad at a local event. Within two years, he had swapped his decently paid job as an accountant for an unpaid one as a political agitator. What turned him into an extremist? And how far is he prepared to go to achieve his aims?

Prior to seeing the group at the fastfood restaurant, Sayful meets me at his semi-detached rented home in Bury Park, Luton's Muslim neighbourhood. He no longer works, even though he is able-bodied, he admits, preferring instead to claim housing benefit and jobseeker's allowance. He smiles sheepishly and says the irony is not lost on him that the British state is supporting him financially, even as he plots to "overthrow it".

"I made a decision that I wanted to follow what Islam really said," Sayful begins, sitting on his sofa in his thowb (a traditional robe) and bare feet. "I went to listen to all the local imams, but I found their portrayal of Islam was too secularised. When I heard Sheikh Omar [the leader] of al-Muhajiroun speak, it was pure Islam, with no compromise. I found that appealing.

"At the same time," continues Sayful, "wars were happening in Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Afghanistan. People were being oppressed simply because they were Muslim. Although I had never experienced racism in the UK, it opened the eyes of a lot of Muslims, including mine."

But it was the events of 11 September that crystallised Sayful's worldview. "When I watched those planes go into the Twin Towers, I felt elated," he says. "That magnificent action split the world into two camps: you were either with Islam and al Qaeda, or with the enemy. I decided to quit my job and commit myself full-time to al-Muhajiroun." Now he does not consider himself British. "I am a Muslim living in Britain, and I give my allegiance only to Allah."

According to Sayful, the aim of al-Muhajiroun ("the immigrants") is nothing less than Khilafah - "the worldwide domination of Islam". The way to achieve this, he says, is by Jihad, led by Bin Laden. "I support him 100 per cent."

Does that support extend to violent acts of terrorism in the UK?

"Yes," he replies, unequivocally. "When a bomb attack happens here, I won't be against it, even if it kills my own children. Islam is clear: Muslims living in lands that are occupied have the right to attack their invaders.


It sounds from what you say that Bakri may have done some things for which he could be punished in terms of terrorism, but nothing you have said that he said is beyond the pale.


His membership of Muslim Brotherhood and Hizbut Tahrir is good enough for me to deport him. I am not even getting into his setting up Al-Muhajiron as a front for HT.


People on these very forums decry unbelievers all the time. Do we hunt all of them down too?

Did they say that the life of an unbeliever has no value or sanctity?

Is that in the same league as "decrying" ?

Don't you agree that saying that life of an unbeliever has no value, has some influence in the mind of a believer to blow up the unbeliever ?

According to Wikipedia:

So, according to your own sources, Bakri was and is an MI6 asset, as are most of the "nefarious" groups to which you linked him.


I only mentioned that he has a wikipage on him. And I quoted a quote that was attributed to him. I know that he made that quote. If you want I can look it up for you. By quoting that part from wiki, I do not endorse everything that is on that page.

And if he was an MI6 asset, then why would the authorities try to deport him?

"nefarious" ;)

Are you implying that Muslim Brotherhood and Hizbut Tahrir are not nefarious, by using the quotes around the word?

The principals of democracy, free expression, freedom of assembly, and freedom of conscience are strengths not weaknesses.

I direct you to the persuasive wisdom of Oliver Wendell Holmes in his dissent in Abrams v. United States (http://laws.findlaw.com/us/250/616.html ), 250 US 616, 630 (1919):

Persecution for the expression of opinions seems to me perfectly logical. If you have no doubt of your premises or your power and want a certain result with all your heart you naturally express your wishes in law and sweep away all opposition. To allow opposition by speech seems to indicate that you think the speech impotent, as when a man says that he has squared the circle, or that you do not care whole heartedly for the result, or that you doubt either your power or your premises. But when men have realized that time has upset many fighting faiths, they may come to believe even more than they believe the very foundations of their own conduct that the ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas-that the best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market, and that truth is the only ground upon which their wishes safely can be carried out. That at any rate is the theory of our Constitution. It is an experiment, as all life is an experiment. Every year if not every day we have to wager our salvation upon some prophecy based upon imperfect knowledge. While that experiment is part of our system I think that we should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe and believe to be fraught with death, unless they so imminently threaten immediate interference with the lawful and pressing purposes of the law that an immediate check is required to save the country.

As I said, we should rely on the market place of ideas and vigilant protection of freedom for all -- not upon oppression of those with whom we disagree.

I direct you to ...

I direct you to research more on islamism and about dhimmitude. :)

Bye.

Bakri's recent interview

http://www.aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=3&id=1464

(Q) But you said that you are against killing innocent people and have nothing to do with the Al-Qaeda Organization. Now you are calling for jihad. How do you explain your position?

(A) I have often repeated that I am against the killing of innocent people anywhere in the world but who are the innocent? I keep the answer to myself.

(Q) Who do you define as innocent?

(A) The innocent people are specified by Islam. I denounce killing innocent people regardless of who kills them. However, who are the innocent? I do not have to explain this issue.

(Q) Does this mean that you support killing those whom you consider guilty and those whom Islam as you understand it describes as not innocent?

(A) I support what the Sunni Muslim youths in Lebanon believe in.

(Q) What about killing in general?

(A) Sister, I do not say that I support killing in general. You said that.

(Q) But you alluded to a classification of innocent people. Does this mean that you support jihad in certain areas because of things that are being done against Islam?

(A) Do you think that the Palestinian resistance is not right?

(Q) I am not giving an opinion, I am asking about your point of view.

(A) I am against killing innocent people and I repeat this everywhere. This is my personal position.

Add this to his other quote that I noted a few posts above that unbelievers life has no value or sanctity, it is won't be a surprise if impressionable young muslim who listens to this guy would decide to blow up unbelievers as jihad.

And then the funny contradictions in his interview.
In Britain, I lived on social security after my work permit was revoked in 1997.


I owned the Fustuq Company in London to sell computers from 1986 to 1997. My father was trading in livestock in Beirut. I come from a rich family :confused: .

I love this guy. He should have stayed in UK and slugged it out with the authorities and the media would have had a field day. :p

I am presently watching a broadcast on Channel 4 (UK for any americans), upon the subject of the convictions and lifestyle of Sheikh Omar Bakri, an objectionable individual who, despite applying for British citizenship and proposing to live from benefits money, has a pronounced revulsion for western culture. Irrespective of the inherent hypocrisy of such sentiments, I would be delighted to play host to any opinions as to Bakri, and other such individuals.
I agree with you. If he spews hatred, that's his business. If he acts on it, it's everyone's business. But there is a clear difference that is a moral imperative not to confuse.

Pity he wants to kill all the jews, and the christians, and the buddhists.

Seriously, who but a madman has it in for buddhists??

He used to stand out on street corners shouting about how 'fags go to hell'.

Nice chap really, once you get past the whole evil fascist thing.


Funny thing is, during the Ch4. programme, Omar Bakri walked around my local shopping center. What they didn't mention is that he used to and his followers still do stand outside it once a week and hand out pamphlets filled with hate & racism.

I have to put up with these nonces verbally abusing me in my home town, because I have a semitic nose.

Nice.