NationStates Jolt Archive

There's little question that the response of the ponderous governmental bureacracy to the New Orleans disaster was too little, too late. So what can be done? Here are a few suggestions:

* Playing the bureaucratic equivalent of musical chairs will not improve the agencies responsible for disaster relief. What is needed is a matrix management style of organization. When a disaster is declared, all local agencies and non-governmental organizations would immediately come under the control of a regional disaster manager. These managers would be pre-selected and would know immediately what their responsibilities would be. I would recommend former military civil affairs officers, but that's just a personal preference. In the initial stages, a military type, perhaps a retired general, would probably be the best choice. They would definitely have to be people who know how to kick ass and take names, and not afraid of stepping on toes to get the job done.

* Designate initial coordination managers for every area of the Country. The vast numbers of military veterans and veterans of organizations like the Peace Corps, etc., would be ideal for this. A list of these people could be compiled and they would know that as soon as a disaster was delcared, they would head for the preselected rally point nearest the disaster.

* Preposition relief supplies at depots. There are unused government buildings everywhere. Store mass quantities of relief supplies in them at strategic locations around the Country.

* Preposition medical, administrative HQ, etc., unit modules at the depots. These are designed to be carried beneath heavy lift helicopters. Build more of those too and preposition them.

* Spend enough cash to loft a geosynchronous satellite into orbit over the US for the exclusive use of emergency personnel. This would help make communication to and among emergency personnel much faster and more secure.

Got any you'd like to add?

* Limit Presidential vacation time.

Get bu$h out of office.

Stop appointing people with no experience to important positions.

*Fit all Americans with mandatory GPS "emergency" tracking chips. Oh, and house them all permanently in domed stadiums, where they can always be "rescued" with greater ease.

They could stop using the Constitution as a fig-leaf to dodge responsibility.

Stop appointing people with no experience to important positions.
Damn skippy. Appoint qualified people with experience, not roommates of political appointees. Not that we should have expected anything more from Bush--his track record is one of incompetence and cronyism.

Make people remember what they did how in July 2004 when over 40 government agencies drilled for exactly what happened only a year later?

Not spend the money that was needed on the levees elsewhere?

Run Bu$h out of office? The country? Or better, set him down with Marine 1, take off, and broadcast it on live TV. See how caring and appreciative the people from New Orleans really are.

* Limit Presidential vacation time.
Surely not even you can be that obtuse. When POTUS takes a "vacation" it's not even close to what you mean when you use that term.

Next non-issue! :)

Get bu$h out of office.
Cute.

NEXT! :)

It would be really nice if someone on the left would make some constructive, workable recommendations. Or is that totally, like ... beyond your capabilities? :(

Surely not even you can be that obtuse. When POTUS takes a "vacation" it's not even close to what you mean when you use that term.

What, it involves more binge-drinking and cat-napping?

Surely not even you can be that... well, now... fill in the blank. :fluffle:

It would be really nice if someone on the left would make some constructive, workable recommendations. Or is that totally, like ... beyond your capabilities? :(

And that got you reported.

It would be really nice if someone on the left would make some constructive, workable recommendations. Or is that totally, like ... beyond your capabilities? :(
Damn, Eutrusca, always with the negative waves, man. You need to think positive.

Don't shoot at the choppers

Damn, Eutrusca, always with the negative waves, man. You need to think positive.
I'm not the one being negative. I made some truly constructive suggestions. The ones being negative are the ones simply using this thread as another vehicle for their small mindedness.

It would be really nice if someone on the left would make some constructive, workable recommendations. Or is that totally, like ... beyond your capabilities? :(


http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/005788.php

And that got you reported.
Awww! Poor BABIE! Did I hurt your widdle feewings? Tsk!

If I ever needed proof that the left is seriously demented, you just supplied it.

Oh, and by the way ... stating that you're reporting someone to the Mods is a violation of the rules. :p

It would have been really nice if someone on the right (like the President) would have made some constructive, workable decisions. Or is that totally, like ... beyond his capabilities? :p

Seriously - I just don't get it: The world's only superpower incapable of evacuating its own people from a known danger zone?
Man, even the Chinese could evacuate over a million of their own when just this week they had a big typhoon.

Couple of questions that are really bothering me: If there's an official evacuation order - why do people have to pay for a bus ticket to get out of the area?

Most people knew that Katrina was coming (and most have also seen what a hurricane can do) - why haven't there been preparations for food, water, medicine, tents in the neighboring counties/states?

The world has watched closely - and they saw the U.S. get caught with their pants down. The president plays his guitar in California while people in Lousiana are drowning, starving, dying of thirst, or lack of medication, being robbed, shot, raped - jaw-droppingly amazing...

Hope for the best - but always prepare for the worst. I'd say the second part is more important.

Now, another question concerning the National Guard: What is their main purpose? (And what are they doing in Iraq? Rebuilding? Fighting? Is that the 5th branch besides Army, Navy, Airforce, Marines?)

It would be really nice if someone on the left would make some constructive, workable recommendations. Or is that totally, like ... beyond your capabilities? :(
Just because you don't like our suggestions doesn't mean that they're not constructive or workable--it means that you're so locked into your idea that anyone who disagrees with you is beneath contempt that you assume we're unable of coming up with anything.

For instance, the recommendation that the people in charge of crisis management agencies actually be qualified for the job and have some experience in the field is both constructive and workable, and is, quite honestly, core cause behind the federal government's ineptitude in this crisis. Sorry if that makes your buddy Bush look like an uncaring idiot, but it's the truth.

(...)
"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?"
Gotta love Kelly's Heroes!

http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/005788.php

interesting read...

You americans are so stupid, you dont even know how your government is set up.

You demand to have a authoritarian government if you blame the feds for this disaster. LOCAL and STATE governments are supposed to be the leaders in disasters with the feds providing bankroll and heavy equipment. Louisiana and the mayor of N.O are the ones to blame...

but since you have a political ax to grind you will use this to take a pot shot at your stupid prez...he maybe stupid, but he didnt have anything to do with this major fuck up... I really think you people understand this, but youre letting your blind stupidness to get bush at all cost cover up any sort of logic you have in your heads. Either that or your openingly admiting several times over you have no damn clue how your government is set up....Americans need to be killed off already, we cant allow this amount of stupid to exist in the world.

I'm not the one being negative. I made some truly constructive suggestions. The ones being negative are the ones simply using this thread as another vehicle for their small mindedness.
Like how you're taking the small mindedness of a couple of anti-Bush forum members and applying their thoughts on the matter to an entire political party?

*Stop assuming that the problem will be fixed in a couple of weeks, and tut tutting at the disaster response when it isn't.

*Actually send some stuff out, instead of using it as an excuse to go America-bashing.

*Did somebody already mention Don't Shoot At The Choppers?

The main change? Have a level of automaticity on who is in charge of what BEFOREHAND, and make sure that these people are known and on the ball.


That way you don't have stupid stuff going on like New Mexico offering guardsmen to help, Louisiana accepting, but it taking FOUR FREAKING DAYS for some peon in Washington to approve the troops being allowed across state lines.

So you don't have buses all over the country being made available for helping with the evacuation, but having an approval process that keeps them waiting around for days.

Seems that most of the holdups have been over the usual buerocratic BS where some asshats seem to think that it's the right time to form committees, study the problem, and argue over who gets the lead - and hence the glory.

Oh yes, and if the President wants to have a photo op on site, he should either allow search and rescue to continue during his visit or stay the hell away. The fact that his security aparatus is so damn inflexible as to put a nearly day-long moratorium on airborne SAR in the region borders on criminal.

Most of these so called "improvements" you;re asking for are generally SUPPOSED to be part of the system in place already. The problem is that nobody seemed capable of standing up, taking charge, and getting things going. And when it comes to local-state-federal relations, it's the people at the HIGHER level that need to do that. Local can't FORCE state resources to become available just as State can't force the Feds.


And that is why I largely point my finger towards the top.

It would be really nice if someone on the left would make some constructive, workable recommendations. Or is that totally, like ... beyond your capabilities? :(

Charming.

Well, how's this for starters:

1. Bush should just Be There
There are thousands of people stranded with no hope, who need someone to cling onto. Louisianna (pardon the spelling) gave Bush 9 votes last year. The least he can do is pay them a visit. What he's doing now is too late.

I understand that thewre needs to be someone in D.C. pulling the strings. Although i'm not an expert in US politics, I think in this case thats the vice-presidents job. Bush should be at the scene, getting things done.

2. What about aid?
Yes, I understand that it's virtually impossible to get aid there. But the US has hundreds, if not thousands, of helicopters, trucks and ships that could be used to send food/aid from the air or coast. They seem to be far slower than one would expect. At the start of the niger crisis, the UK send a plane with food that arrived the day after. Surely, the world's superpower could organize something more.

Perhaps landing planes of aid into Nassau or Havana and then using civilian craft to get it to new orleans could be possible. There's certinatly plenty in the Bahamas.

And why has the govenrment not yet accepted Chavez/Castro's offers of aid? This is cutting your nose to spite your face. Big time.

Preventing the Disaster
It seems to me that there was no real preparation for something like this. The government knew that the levees would take a force 3 hurricane and no more. All hurricane-prone areas should be capable of withstanding a maximum force hurricane. Having only half-strength protection is no different to having seat belts on only the front seats of a car.

Secondly, why were so many people left behind? From what British news showed (and once pointed out) many of those left behind could not afford to leave. Why did the US Air force not send their transport planes and helicopters to pick people up from airports before the storm hit?

And finally - prevention is better than cure. When Katrina was 'born' the sea temperature was 30 centigrade (about 85 farenheit I think) which is a record temperature. Preventing global warming (All countries) will prevent disasters like this happening regularary.


PS, If I got any facts wrong i'll apologise in advance: there is a lot of contradicting news here in the UK. Everyone's saying something different!

You americans are so stupid, you dont even know how your government is set up.

You demand to have a authoritarian government if you blame the feds for this disaster. LOCAL and STATE governments are supposed to be the leaders in disasters with the feds providing bankroll and heavy equipment. Louisiana and the mayor of N.O are the ones to blame...\

Actually, it was the Fed that wrestled a large part of this task away from the state and local level post-9/11. They INSISTED on a centralized control of such things as part and parcel of folding so many pre-existing oraganizations into the DHS.

Now, given that you admit that it is the Feds responsibility to provide bankrool, manpower, and heavy equipment - how exactly is it the State and local fault if the Feds don't deliver on these things?

Are they magically in a position to force the Feds to deliver these things?



but since you have a political ax to grind you will use this to take a pot shot at your stupid prez...he maybe stupid, but he didnt have anything to do with this major fuck up... I really think you people understand this, but youre letting your blind stupidness to get bush at all cost cover up any sort of logic you have in your heads. Either that or your openingly admiting several times over you have no damn clue how your government is set up....Americans need to be killed off already, we cant allow this amount of stupid to exist in the world.


Yeah, we know. The buck stops nowhere. Except when Clinton had the Oval office.......

:rolleyes:

Like how you're taking the small mindedness of a couple of anti-Bush forum members and applying their thoughts on the matter to an entire political party?
That's probably the very first criticism of me which carries any weight. You're correct, and I apologize for lumping everyone into the same knot. :(

If I ever needed proof that the left is seriously demented, you just supplied it.

It would be really nice if someone on the left would make some constructive, workable recommendations. Or is that totally, like ... beyond your capabilities?

This is a thread about suggestions to improve the disaster response. Please don't bring left/right politics into it. That really isn't the issue.

Indentify the problem first: from where i sit its about the lack of basic Planning and Command&Control. No point everyone playing the blame game as all parties are culpable yet wheren't completely to blame either.

It seems to me that A) local authorities where overwhelmed by scale of the problem, especially after the initial hurricane had passed (stood down). B) national/federal where slow to pick up the ball once A was apparent.

The problem of having lots of kit sitting around its that it costs an awful lot and is still no use if it doesnt get deployed properly and in a timely manner. Im sure that plenty of trucks/helicopters/food/medical supplies where on hand, just not (re)deployed correctly. for example, there where pictures of dozens of school buses sitting in 4' of water: why hadnt they been moved to higher ground the day before? What im getting at here is there wasnt a shortage of supplies and transport, it was just poorly managed. If you had another 200 trucks "prepositioned" but in the wrong place you'd be back to square 1.

As for management i thought that matrix thing was how FEMA was supposed to work anyway. Seems to me that FEMA didnt kick in its responce plan for whatever reason and was probably hamstrung by the above when it did. The C&C structure probably needs to more flexible and fluid, acting as a hub to relay information between groups rather than enforce a strategy thats already gone to shit. You cant plan for every eventuality, so your responce strategy should be flexible in the first place, maybe little more than who's in charge, whats the chain of command and where to establish your HQ. The beneifts of Humans is we can adapt very quickly, rigid plans run counter to that.

Its no point blaming Bush, blaming funding cuts on the levees, thats happened and in the past now. The money could have been there but that levee hadnt been got to yet (engineering takes time). Thats for the media to chew on and politians to bitch about. Its day 1, you need to have concise disaster responce that reacts to whatever dynamics its presented with, while not costing the earth.

Don't shoot at the choppers



*Did somebody already mention Don't Shoot At The Choppers?


YEP somebody did that and just want to say...

That you don't want to do it because now they are armed and will shoot back at you.... now.. That should have been the case from the first call of shots fired on anyone trying to rescue folks..

A few tips that FEMA has left off their preparedness sites that I'll be kind enough to share with you.

1. Don't build your city below sea level with major bodies of waters on three sides.
2. Don't expect Cat3 levees to stand up to a Cat4 hurricane.
3. Don't host Mardi Gras, be the capital of Girls Gone Wild, and plenty of other sinful activities, or else God will wreak havoc.
4. Don't be black or poor, but more importantly, don't be both at the same time.
5. Evacuate.
Five easy steps toward improving US disaster response.

Its no point blaming Bush, blaming funding cuts on the levees, thats happened and in the past now. The money could have been there but that levee hadnt been got to yet (engineering takes time). Thats for the media to chew on and politians to bitch about. Its day 1, you need to have concise disaster responce that reacts to whatever dynamics its presented with, while not costing the earth.
Amazing. That's like saying there's no point in blaming Nixon for Watergate, what with it being in the past now.

Its no point blaming Bush, blaming funding cuts on the levees, thats happened and in the past now. The money could have been there but that levee hadnt been got to yet (engineering takes time). Thats for the media to chew on and politians to bitch about. Its day 1, you need to have concise disaster responce that reacts to whatever dynamics its presented with, while not costing the earth.

New Orleans is hundreds of years old. That's plenty of time to strengthen levees. Preventing the problem is better than dealing with the effects.

Indentify the problem first: from where i sit its about the lack of basic Planning and Command&Control. No point everyone playing the blame game as all parties are culpable yet wheren't completely to blame either.

It seems to me that A) local authorities where overwhelmed by scale of the problem, especially after the initial hurricane had passed (stood down). B) national/federal where slow to pick up the ball once A was apparent.

The problem of having lots of kit sitting around its that it costs an awful lot and is still no use if it doesnt get deployed properly and in a timely manner. Im sure that plenty of trucks/helicopters/food/medical supplies where on hand, just not (re)deployed correctly. for example, there where pictures of dozens of school buses sitting in 4' of water: why hadnt they been moved to higher ground the day before? What im getting at here is there wasnt a shortage of supplies and transport, it was just poorly managed. If you had another 200 trucks "prepositioned" but in the wrong place you'd be back to square 1.

As for management i thought that matrix thing was how FEMA was supposed to work anyway. Seems to me that FEMA didnt kick in its responce plan for whatever reason and was probably hamstrung by the above when it did. The C&C structure probably needs to more flexible and fluid, acting as a hub to relay information between groups rather than enforce a strategy thats already gone to shit. You cant plan for every eventuality, so your responce strategy should be flexible in the first place, maybe little more than who's in charge, whats the chain of command and where to establish your HQ. The beneifts of Humans is we can adapt very quickly, rigid plans run counter to that.

Its no point blaming Bush, blaming funding cuts on the levees, thats happened and in the past now. The money could have been there but that levee hadnt been got to yet (engineering takes time). Thats for the media to chew on and politians to bitch about. Its day 1, you need to have concise disaster responce that reacts to whatever dynamics its presented with, while not costing the earth.
Thank you for a calm, reasoned, constructive post! Some of the issues you raise are some of the same ones about which I was concerned when I began this thread.

* Limit Presidential vacation time.

Get bu$h out of office.

*Fit all Americans with mandatory GPS "emergency" tracking chips. Oh, and house them all permanently in domed stadiums, where they can always be "rescued" with greater ease.


Run Bu$h out of office? The country? Or better, set him down with Marine 1, take off, and broadcast it on live TV. See how caring and appreciative the people from New Orleans really are.

All of you can knock it off. These comments have contributed nothing to the debate. Especially you Potaria, you were told to not interact with Eutrusca. If you continue to post in his threads with trollish remarks, you will receive a just punishment. Don't tempt yourself to do it again.

New Orleans is hundreds of years old. That's plenty of time to strengthen levees. Preventing the problem is better than dealing with the effects.
Well, if we're going that route, building the city there in the first place seems to have been a very bad idea. Unfortunately, cities tend to "just grow," without much thought going into what could happen because of where they're located.

Five easy steps toward improving US disaster response.
Point 1 couldn't agree with you more but they did so here we are!

Point 2 so they up the levee to survive a level 4 the next one comes is level 5

Point 3 not part of the problem as this is a source of those funds that would be used to upgrade the levee, so ending Mardi Gra where do funds come from

Point 4 See Point 5

Point 5 To drag them from their homes would have been abuse and a violation of their rights to stay. They were told to leave they didn't, you can't force anyone to leave... Also I know two other areas that did not get a warning to evacuate as it was thought they would be safe where they were. Resources that should go to those areas have been diverted to save those told to leave but didn't; because cameras are in New Orleans not were there are people in real need.. These people knew what was coming and were told to move. Many others were not told it was needed now they wait help. Race and poor has nothing to do with it... Play to cameras.... Race and poor make good reviews...

New Orleans is hundreds of years old. That's plenty of time to strengthen levees. Preventing the problem is better than dealing with the effects.

If your going to take that attitude, then New Orleans should be abandoned, along with San Francisco, LA, New York, half of Holland, East Anglia (look it up), London, Naples... best to prevent the problems eh? You've missed my point, you could have 20 foot high levees, but there's a flaw and it cracks and splits in a mere cat 2 hurricane. So what you do, in order to balance cost of prevention, is to provide suitable recovery for when that fails, because shit happens.

Well, if we're going that route, building the city there in the first place seems to have been a very bad idea. Unfortunately, cities tend to "just grow," without much thought going into what could happen because of where they're located.

Naturally, humans are very good at putting cities in the paths of blizzards, hurricanes tornados anf goodness knows what.

But New Orleans was founded in 1718, long before levees, or even hurricanes were understood. You don't have to move the city as a response. If we moved all our cities away from disaster-prone areas where would we all live?

Someone, however, has a duty to protect those cities. And whoever's responsible (NO fingers of blame at all here) for making sure that levees don't burst, all people are evacuated and the city is protected from floods has failed.

The best response is to fund proper defences and prevent global warming. Sounds like red.green rethoric, but it is the best longterm solution.

All of you can knock it off. These comments have contributed nothing to the debate. Especially you Potaria, you were told to not interact with Eutrusca. If you continue to post in his threads with trollish remarks, you will receive a just punishment. Don't tempt yourself to do it again.
I'm sorry Euroslavia, but I have to take a little exception here--the recommendation that people with experience in crisis management be put in charge of bureaus that deal with crisis management instead of putting in political friends is a constructive suggestion, and that's precisely what I recommended. It's too late to do anything about it for this particular crisis, but the point of this thread had nothing to do with this particular crisis either, but rather, with ways to improve response for future crises. My suggestion deals with that subject, and I still argue that it's a constructive suggestion. That Eutrusca and Zooke took it badly isn't my fault.

All of you can knock it off. These comments have contributed nothing to the debate. Especially you Potaria, you were told to not interact with Eutrusca. If you continue to post in his threads with trollish remarks, you will receive a just punishment. Don't tempt yourself to do it again.
Actually, I argue my comment contributed plenty to the debate, especially the question at hand. It is all over the news the current head of FEMA has pretty much no qualifying experience.

An enquiry for UN emergency aid or intervention early would have been a reasonable start

All of you can knock it off. These comments have contributed nothing to the debate. Especially you Potaria, you were told to not interact with Eutrusca. If you continue to post in his threads with trollish remarks, you will receive a just punishment. Don't tempt yourself to do it again.
Yes, maybe the last recommandation was not helpful at all - that was pure sarcasm at the fact that whenever the President touches down no other verhicles are allowed in the air and the rescue efforts are put on hold. That's not helping, or is it?
The other two, on the other hand, were exactly on the point, especially the first bold one. (Go take a look on page one - the post is unedited :rolleyes: )

Hmm, too many people got lumped together there in that mod warning. Some of those contributions were entirely fair. 'Course, this would be less of a problem if you guys weren't burdening Euroslavia with a load of tedious whingeing in the first place.

Anyway, how to repsond? Ask Cuba. The manner in which the recent hurricane in the Caribbean was dealt with was exemplary. Bugger ideology, Cuba's tactics worked.

I'm sorry Euroslavia, but I have to take a little exception here--the recommendation that people with experience in crisis management be put in charge of bureaus that deal with crisis management instead of putting in political friends is a constructive suggestion, and that's precisely what I recommended. It's too late to do anything about it for this particular crisis, but the point of this thread had nothing to do with this particular crisis either, but rather, with ways to improve response for future crises. My suggestion deals with that subject, and I still argue that it's a constructive suggestion. That Eutrusca and Zooke took it badly isn't my fault.

This entire debate is on how to respond to a disaster better and you went on to state this: "his track record is one of incompetence and cronyism." which contributes absolutely nothing to the thread. That sort of response just doesn't belong in this thread.

Actually, I argue my comment contributed plenty to the debate, especially the question at hand. It is all over the news the current head of FEMA has pretty much no qualifying experience.

Your comment was well within the lines of debate. I apologize for putting your quote in that post, but the rest will remain.

Point 1 couldn't agree with you more but they did so here we are!

Point 2 so they up the levee to survive a level 4 the next one comes is level 5

Point 3 not part of the problem as this is a source of those funds that would be used to upgrade the levee, so ending Mardi Gra where do funds come from

Point 4 See Point 5

Point 5 To drag them from their homes would have been abuse and a violation of their rights to stay. They were told to leave they didn't, you can't force anyone to leave... Also I know two other areas that did not get a warning to evacuate as it was thought they would be safe where they were. Resources that should go to those areas have been diverted to save those told to leave but didn't; because cameras are in New Orleans not were there are people in real need.. These people knew what was coming and were told to move. Many others were not told it was needed now they wait help. Race and poor has nothing to do with it... Play to cameras.... Race and poor make good reviews...


Someone missed the sarcasm. Either way, Mardi Gras is spelled Mardi Gras, even if it is pronounced Mardi Gra. It's French. Just like "Geaux" is pronounced "Go" and not "gee-ocks"

Someone missed the sarcasm. Either way, Mardi Gras is spelled Mardi Gras, even if it is pronounced Mardi Gra. It's French. Just like "Geaux" is pronounced "Go" and not "gee-ocks"
I would've thought it was pronounced "Djo" - a soft "J" sound.

I would've thought it was pronounced "Djo" - a soft "J" sound.
Well, the crazy LSU fans insist on LSU sports gear/signage/flags/etc that say "Geaux Tigers"

Up here, we just say "Whoo Pig Souiee"

Well, the crazy LSU fans insist on LSU sports gear/signage/flags/etc that say "Geaux Tigers"

Up here, we just say "Whoo Pig Souiee"

go Razorbacks!!

It would be really nice if someone on the left would make some constructive, workable recommendations. Or is that totally, like ... beyond your capabilities? :(
That's really quite rude.

My thoughts:

Perhaps the USA could be a little less quick (to start with) in dismissing all foreign offers of assistance. It has now realised that it needs international help (and incidentally, there's no shame in that after such a high-scale natural disaster), but even now, it's not making the necessary arrangements for much of this aid offered to be able to arrive in USA.

Secondly, the logistical management of the operation has been very poor. Perhaps call in the Dutch who have very great expertise in flood solutions, due to their extensive planning for such an occurance (after all, more than 30 percent of the Netherlands is below sea-level...).

Thirdly, this will require a shift in American thinking... consider if it is actually just for such a rich nation to allow such extreme poverty in its own nation amongst its own citizens? Consider if society ought to be more attentive and take more responsibility for all of its members.

1. Bush should just Be There
There are thousands of people stranded with no hope, who need someone to cling onto. Louisianna (pardon the spelling) gave Bush 9 votes last year. The least he can do is pay them a visit. What he's doing now is too late.
Bush should be at the scene, getting things done.


Wrong BUSH and all the rest of the politicians and camera chasers need to stay away from the area period.. All while BUSH was there not one chopper went into the area due to security and many vehicles that might have been moving were not moving because of security. Also consider the police and troops moved to provide security for him moved from saving lives to security. Also the people that were suppose to be in charge were there with him not doing their jobs of running the evacuation and getting people rescued.

Also I believe Gore was there later and can only imagine what security was taken with him there.. Even if he is an Ex VP..

The politicians need to stay in DC and out of the way. That is the one thing needed to improve relief to all these areas.... Is to let those in charge run the show not news cameras or politicians.

Now I heard others are going to the area and all I can say is they need to stay out... and let those who are in to save lives do their jobs not kiss up to cameras and politicians.

Someone missed the sarcasm. Either way, Mardi Gras is spelled Mardi Gras, even if it is pronounced Mardi Gra. It's French. Just like "Geaux" is pronounced "Go" and not "gee-ocks"


Sorry about that may have just that I have family still missing in an area above New Orleans... and all hear is not enough for New Orleans not fast enough to save blacks and poor in New Orleans. Then all the blame of who didn't do what last year.. My family are not missing last year they are missing today. All this attention one New Orleans to play to cameras is costing lives outside New Orleans and a Race Card has not been played just a camera rolling..

As for the spelling I hate computers that can't spell so they change things on me. Also not French as speack Southern American.. so it Graaaw

Vilevilla, if I made you upset, I apoligize. Just so you know that I'm not a cold-hearted bastard however, I'm going to be spending the upcoming spring semester at a university either in or near NOLA (depending on whether or not the universities in the city are open in the spring) so that I can help with volunteer work to clean up and rebuild the city (I'm currently attending the University of Arkansas).

Wrong BUSH and all the rest of the politicians and camera chasers need to stay away from the area period.. All while BUSH was there not one chopper went into the area due to security and many vehicles that might have been moving were not moving because of security. Also consider the police and troops moved to provide security for him moved from saving lives to security. Also the people that were suppose to be in charge were there with him not doing their jobs of running the evacuation and getting people rescued.

Also I believe Gore was there later and can only imagine what security was taken with him there.. Even if he is an Ex VP..

The politicians need to stay in DC and out of the way. That is the one thing needed to improve relief to all these areas.... Is to let those in charge run the show not news cameras or politicians.

Now I heard others are going to the area and all I can say is they need to stay out... and let those who are in to save lives do their jobs not kiss up to cameras and politicians.

I've read this argument on Bush's arrival stopping rescure efforts before, but no one has sourced it. Where is this coming from other than conjecture? The helicopters being used for rescue are US military. They're allowed to fly while the president is in the area. Also, Bush travels with his own security troops. How on one hand can you condemn the president for not taking control of the situation sooner, then on the other condemn him for surveying the damage first hand to make informed decisions?

I can form opinions of what possibly went wrong in the rescue efforts based on rudimentary knowledge of how the system works and the chain of command involved. But, until an expert investigation is done...and you know it will...we can only guess and point fingers at this point.

then on the other condemn him for surveying the damage first hand to make informed decisions?
I don't care how many fly-overs Bush did, he was a Business major in college, and he's not going to be the best to make informed decisions. Now, if he flew over with a member of his cabinet who knew a little bit about flooding, disaster relief, etc., and was discussing decisions, yes. But don't you feel a little silly claiming that Bush is flying over NOLA so that he can make informed decisions?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to knock Bush, but his job as president is not to micromanage. He's supposed to macromanage, and that doesn't involving flying over NOLA to get intimate details of the extent of the damage in order to make informed decisions. His job is to get someone who knows what they are doing to go do that, and report back. Then he goes to get someone to execute based on what the professionals advised him, etc. etc.

There's little question that the response of the ponderous governmental bureacracy to the New Orleans disaster was too little, too late. So what can be done? Here are a few suggestions:

* Playing the bureaucratic equivalent of musical chairs will not improve the agencies responsible for disaster relief. What is needed is a matrix management style of organization. When a disaster is declared, all local agencies and non-governmental organizations would immediately come under the control of a regional disaster manager. These managers would be pre-selected and would know immediately what their responsibilities would be. I would recommend former military civil affairs officers, but that's just a personal preference. In the initial stages, a military type, perhaps a retired general, would probably be the best choice. They would definitely have to be people who know how to kick ass and take names, and not afraid of stepping on toes to get the job done.

* Designate initial coordination managers for every area of the Country. The vast numbers of military veterans and veterans of organizations like the Peace Corps, etc., would be ideal for this. A list of these people could be compiled and they would know that as soon as a disaster was delcared, they would head for the preselected rally point nearest the disaster.

* Preposition relief supplies at depots. There are unused government buildings everywhere. Store mass quantities of relief supplies in them at strategic locations around the Country.

* Preposition medical, administrative HQ, etc., unit modules at the depots. These are designed to be carried beneath heavy lift helicopters. Build more of those too and preposition them.

* Spend enough cash to loft a geosynchronous satellite into orbit over the US for the exclusive use of emergency personnel. This would help make communication to and among emergency personnel much faster and more secure.

Got any you'd like to add?My Effort to get this thread back on line.

Convert some of the Decomissioned Bases into supply depots. store non perishable foods as well as suppiles like blankets, stoves, first Aid Kits... keep them updated and fresh.
When disaster strikes, they get sent to the stricken area as fast as possible.

Create a Department that oversees disaster relief efforts and they also help provide training as well as drills to keep the Emergency Response Teams up to date on procedures.

The problem of having lots of kit sitting around its that it costs an awful lot and is still no use if it doesnt get deployed properly and in a timely manner. Im sure that plenty of trucks/helicopters/food/medical supplies where on hand, just not (re)deployed correctly. for example, there where pictures of dozens of school buses sitting in 4' of water: why hadnt they been moved to higher ground the day before? What im getting at here is there wasnt a shortage of supplies and transport, it was just poorly managed. If you had another 200 trucks "prepositioned" but in the wrong place you'd be back to square 1.



The thing with huricanes is they like a real lady... Can change their minds and do so often. They did have equipment in place but this had to get into a flooded area to do any good.. Also New Orleans was not the only place hit...

200 2.5 ton trucks maybe 20 to 30 on them is only 4000 to 6000 people.. There were by time they got to TX set up to hold 26000 needing 860-1300 buses to move them at once.. Next is gas to make the trip to a TX location for all the buses used. There were far more than 26000 people that needed moving as even in New Orleans along the needs were beyong what anyone might have expected.

Also many of the units deployed had no equipment as it was left in Iraq... Thus more buses to move them into the region to do their security of the area. Then the fuel for them all is another factor to take into it all.

These comments have contributed nothing to the debate..
Its like that All over the General Forum...any given Sunday...or weekdays...at least 70% of the comments do not contribute to the debate (in the opinion of the trhead creator)...or that he does not like.

are you going to treat us all on an equal footing?...are you going to warn everyone who (in-the-thread-creator-opinion) does not contribute to the debate?

I think you should be prepared to hire some 100 more mods...be prepared...don't let the Hurricane catch you with your pants down.

IMO the comments were to the point..there was no Hickjaking.

If everytime a Thred creator feels the comments are not going his way...he will claim the "do not contribute to the debate"...and without clear guidelines and uniform enforcement(that we always got so far)...The mods intervention will be required that more often.

That's really quite rude.

My thoughts:

Perhaps the USA could be a little less quick (to start with) in dismissing all foreign offers of assistance. It has now realised that it needs international help (and incidentally, there's no shame in that after such a high-scale natural disaster), but even now, it's not making the necessary arrangements for much of this aid offered to be able to arrive in USA.


Again, another misunderstanding of the facts. The US did not turn down offers of aid, but has postponed accepting them until needs assessment could be done.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/03/katrina.world.aid.reut/
A State Department official said a needs assessment was being done to determine which offers would be accepted.

this misunderstanding is perpetuated by media statements like this.

Earlier, President George W. Bush said in a television interview that the United States could take care of itself.

"I'm not expecting much from foreign nations because we hadn't asked for it. I do expect a lot of sympathy and perhaps some will send cash dollars. But this country's going to rise up and take care of it," Bush told ABC's "Good Morning America."

He was saying that the US wouldn't ask for aid and it wasn't a foregone assumption that nations should contribute. He was saying that he thought other nations would donate out of compassion and that the US would overcome this tragedy and build itself stronger than ever.

As for not taking steps to receive this aid...
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N0285069.htm
The State Department has set up a task force to cope with the dozens of offers coming in from foreign nations, trying to match them up with needs on the ground

Secondly, the logistical management of the operation has been very poor. Perhaps call in the Dutch who have very great expertise in flood solutions, due to their extensive planning for such an occurance (after all, more than 30 percent of the Netherlands is below sea-level...).

I don't know what source you are using to claim logistical management of the operation has been poor. Considering the damage done by this storm hampering transportation of needed personnel and supplies, and the sheer enormity of the area affected (larger than the Netherlands, itself), I tend to believe that has played an instrumental part in perceptions rather than fact. Interviews with rescue operations people on the ground have all alluded to this.

Thirdly, this will require a shift in American thinking... consider if it is actually just for such a rich nation to allow such extreme poverty in its own nation amongst its own citizens? Consider if society ought to be more attentive and take more responsibility for all of its members.

This is a topic for an entirely different debate. The US spends more on welfare than it does on any other national need other than military. Many will contend that we have created a segment of the population that do not know how to climb out of poverty because they only know how to work the welfare system.

Wrong BUSH and all the rest of the politicians and camera chasers need to stay away from the area period.. All while BUSH was there not one chopper went into the area due to security and many vehicles that might have been moving were not moving because of security. Also consider the police and troops moved to provide security for him moved from saving lives to security. Also the people that were suppose to be in charge were there with him not doing their jobs of running the evacuation and getting people rescued.

Also I believe Gore was there later and can only imagine what security was taken with him there.. Even if he is an Ex VP..

The politicians need to stay in DC and out of the way. That is the one thing needed to improve relief to all these areas.... Is to let those in charge run the show not news cameras or politicians.

Now I heard others are going to the area and all I can say is they need to stay out... and let those who are in to save lives do their jobs not kiss up to cameras and politicians.


Yes, it is quite right that camera chasers should be kept away, and are a nuisance. However - Bush is the man supposed to be running the country, and ultimately the one who is supposed to be masterminding the rescue and relief efforts.

While security is an issue, it seems totally ridiculous that Bush and a helicopter cannot be in the same city simultaneously. If Bush is really that paranoid, then perhaps he is better somewhere else. Perhaps the people of New Orleans are more important than mad security. But it still remains: there should be a politician in New Orleans, at least to make the people feel less 'abandoned.'

a way to improve it would to spend vast amounts of money all over the place to be prepared for a hundred years storm, then 10 years later when nothing happens, people will complain about it being a vast waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS AND DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disaster will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system to max again AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before,

I don't care how many fly-overs Bush did, he was a Business major in college, and he's not going to be the best to make informed decisions. Now, if he flew over with a member of his cabinet who knew a little bit about flooding, disaster relief, etc., and was discussing decisions, yes. But don't you feel a little silly claiming that Bush is flying over NOLA so that he can make informed decisions?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to knock Bush, but his job as president is not to micromanage. He's supposed to macromanage, and that doesn't involving flying over NOLA to get intimate details of the extent of the damage in order to make informed decisions. His job is to get someone who knows what they are doing to go do that, and report back. Then he goes to get someone to execute based on what the professionals advised him, etc. etc.

No I don't feel silly. He was a business major, but he has a background of assessment and action on the corporate, state, and federal level. Hands-on experience, if you will. In case you didn't notice, he wasn't traveling alone, but with a staff of advisors with the expertise to help him make his decisions. I agree, his job is not to micromanage, but, considering the obvious mess made by the local and state leaders, he is having to micromanage this event. How else do you think active military was brought in? They can only be ordered up by the president.

Again, another misunderstanding of the facts. The US did not turn down offers of aid, but has postponed accepting them until needs assessment could be done.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/03/katrina.world.aid.reut/


this misunderstanding is perpetuated by media statements like this.



He was saying that the US wouldn't ask for aid and it wasn't a foregone assumption that nations should contribute. He was saying that he thought other nations would donate out of compassion and that the US would overcome this tragedy and build itself stronger than ever.

As for not taking steps to receive this aid...
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N0285069.htm




I don't know what source you are using to claim logistical management of the operation has been poor. Considering the damage done by this storm hampering transportation of needed personnel and supplies, and the sheer enormity of the area affected (larger than the Netherlands, itself), I tend to believe that has played an instrumental part in perceptions rather than fact. Interviews with rescue operations people on the ground have all alluded to this.
I didn't suggest that it had turned down it alltogether, as you can read above. But... USA has not made it easy logistically for countries to respond. Sweden was ready to send an aid plane yesterday, but had to cancel it when the Americans couldn't confirm that it would be able to land!

I really do not think the logistical management can be considered good - if you have a compulsory evacuation you would really expect the authorities to provide means to evacuate those without a car! Plus, you wouldn't take over 3 days to send food/water to a designated emergency shelter...

a way to improve it would to spend vast amounts of money all over the place to be prepared for a hundred years storm, then 10 years later when nothing happens, people will complain about it being a vast waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS AND DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disaster will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system to max again AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before,

If thats what Republicans and Democrats do, can't you vote for someone else?

a way to improve it would to spend vast amounts of money all over the place to be prepared for a hundred years storm, then 10 years later when nothing happens, people will complain about it being a vast waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS AND DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disaster will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system to max again AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before, then people will complain 10 years later about how its all a huge waste of money, the funding will be cut over the years BY BOTH REPUBS and DEMOCRATS, then by chance a major disater will happen, the unfunded system will be slower to respond, people will blame the feds for it, the feds will overract again by funding the system max again, AND making it even larger then before,

It's funny how paragraphs can make a block of text look like English, eh?

No I don't feel silly. He was a business major, but he has a background of assessment and action on the corporate, state, and federal level. Hands-on experience, if you will. In case you didn't notice, he wasn't traveling alone, but with a staff of advisors with the expertise to help him make his decisions. I agree, his job is not to micromanage, but, considering the obvious mess made by the local and state leaders, he is having to micromanage this event. How else do you think active military was brought in? They can only be ordered up by the president.

Calling in the military is not micromanaging. Micromanaging is the job of the Officers. Micromanaging is making detailed decisions. How many of what needs to go where, etc. Macromanage is getting the proper micromanagers in the proper places so that they can micromanage. That doesn't involve flying over a flooded city pretending like you know what you're talking about.

There's little question that the response of the ponderous governmental bureacracy to the New Orleans disaster was too little, too late. So what can be done? Here are a few suggestions:

* Designate initial coordination managers for every area of the Country. The vast numbers of military veterans and veterans of organizations like the Peace Corps, etc., would be ideal for this. A list of these people could be compiled and they would know that as soon as a disaster was delcared, they would head for the preselected rally point nearest the disaster.
Got any you'd like to add?
Turns out that there are already coordination managers for every area of the country. They're called mayors and governors. The city and state authorities have the primary responsibility for disaster relief, by law. They need to ask for federal assistance, much as Guillani and Bush did in the 9/11 and recent Florida hurricanes.

I think a lot of the confusion on capabilites and response stems from not understanding the enormity of the land mass involved and the terrain in that area. Just as we Americans sometimes have trouble with the concept of entire nations that are smaller than several of our states, I don't think a lot of people have a full understanding of how large spread the damage is. The news is full of pictures of New Orleans, but, it extends far beyond NO. If you'll drag out your maps and look at the gulf areas of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama, that is the area destroyed by this storm. Also, keep in mind, that Katrina maintained hurricane force winds for almost 200 miles inland. Entire inland towns and homes are wiped out!! Gone!! Roads, bridges, and tunnels....gone!! Add to that, in Louisiana and western Mississippi, much of the terrain is inhospitable. Swamps with gators, snakes, quick sand....get the picture? This flooding has allowed the wildlife from the swamps to get into formerly populated areas, the areas of rescue. This is not an area like New York, or Los Angeles, or London, or Paris. This is cajun bayou like you see in the movies.

Yes, it is quite right that camera chasers should be kept away, and are a nuisance. However - Bush is the man supposed to be running the country, and ultimately the one who is supposed to be masterminding the rescue and relief efforts.

While security is an issue, it seems totally ridiculous that Bush and a helicopter cannot be in the same city simultaneously. If Bush is really that paranoid, then perhaps he is better somewhere else. Perhaps the people of New Orleans are more important than mad security. But it still remains: there should be a politician in New Orleans, at least to make the people feel less 'abandoned.'



The thing is that every time a President goes into an area there are standard security procedures that go into place.. Troops in those are given their orders from his security people... No Unauthorized people in and only those we okay can come in.. Bush does not set these rules they are the established facts of his office.. I didn't say they could not be in the city but they could not be in a zone of security unless they had been cleared by his security to be there. Thus any that came in once he was there had to wait until his security was notified and given an okay,... More delay and confussion for all....

Many who were headed down didn't have clearences to enter thus they got stopped.. Many probably got rude with the troops following orders... More delays and more confusion and now stress on the troops as well as those wanting to help. Most of the time the troops didn't know who was in the area all they had was an order 'nobody comes in unless' thus they followed orders... Keeping anyone out until told otherwise. I've been in this position many times and had to deal with people wanting to get in... I had orders they stayed out. They argue all I can do is what I was told to do keep them out until told otherwise. So more confusion and delays. So best BUSH and anyone not needed stay out... He may be the president but he can do his job better if he stays where he belongs and out of the way... He had people in place who knew what needed to be done, his coming down because cameras weren't happy with it getting done cost lives.. As resources got diverted from intended areas deamed to need them more than New Orleans. Areas that were hit who were not told to evacuate thus they didn't, while now fools that were told to evacuate cry to cameras and get the help that should go to those not warned.. didn't have a choice to leave or stay..

This mess is getting on people here all over the country... As bad news comes out that makes no sense at all to us who are here. Our own news people are playing us and I hope that after this when they do investigate that the NEWS folks are looked at hard.... not just FEMA and BUSH......

Calling in the military is not micromanaging. Micromanaging is the job of the Officers. Micromanaging is making detailed decisions. How many of what needs to go where, etc. Macromanage is getting the proper micromanagers in the proper places so that they can micromanage. That doesn't involve flying over a flooded city pretending like you know what you're talking about.

Please, I've been a corporate cost accountant for over 30 years. You don't need to explain the difference to me. I was probably supervising and managing people before you were born. Bush was macromanaging in that he left it in the hands of local and state government leaders to handle the details while he backed them up with federal support. That was failing, people were screaming about lack of federal action, so Bush has taken control and appointed others to manage the situation...the military....and they've done a fine job of it, too!! As the president, with the advise of professionals accompanying him, is responsible for assessment of immediate and future needs and the adjustments the federal government will have to make to meet those needs. As with every major disaster to hit this country, the president at the time personally surveys the damage.

I think a lot of the confusion on capabilites and response stems from not understanding the enormity of the land mass involved and the terrain in that area. Just as we Americans sometimes have trouble with the concept of entire nations that are smaller than several of our states, I don't think a lot of people have a full understanding of how large spread the damage is. The news is full of pictures of New Orleans, but, it extends far beyond NO. If you'll drag out your maps and look at the gulf areas of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama, that is the area destroyed by this storm. Also, keep in mind, that Katrina maintained hurricane force winds for almost 200 miles inland. Entire inland towns and homes are wiped out!! Gone!! Roads, bridges, and tunnels....gone!! Add to that, in Louisiana and western Mississippi, much of the terrain is inhospitable. Swamps with gators, snakes, quick sand....get the picture? This flooding has allowed the wildlife from the swamps to get into formerly populated areas, the areas of rescue. This is not an area like New York, or Los Angeles, or London, or Paris. This is cajun bayou like you see in the movies.I understand the enormity of the damage, that is why I haven't critisied any of the effort done at all.

however, are you saying that there can be no way to airdrop, via Helicopters, Blankets, first aid kits, food, radios and other supplies within two days of the desaster? Granted getting the main convoy in will be tough. but signs of something being done can give hope to those stranded, and that can mean alot to those people. the Illusion that something is being done can be more uplifting than the reality of waiting 5 days for the main convoy to arrive.

I understand the enormity of the damage, that is why I haven't critisied any of the effort done at all.

however, are you saying that there can be no way to airdrop, via Helicopters, Blankets, first aid kits, food, radios and other supplies within two days of the desaster? Granted getting the main convoy in will be tough. but signs of something being done can give hope to those stranded, and that can mean alot to those people. the Illusion that something is being done can be more uplifting than the reality of waiting 5 days for the main convoy to arrive.

I've been listening to reports from National Guard officers all weekend long. As they explain it, all of those things were done ASAP, But, their troops were stationed outside the hurricane area so that they did not become victims themselves. Supplies were shipped in, guardsmen were shipped in as quickly as damaged roadways would allow, but the vast number of people who stayed behind across hundreds of miles made efforts seem minimal by comparison. Once the personnel, their equipment, and their supplies were in place in adequate numbers, we saw a quick reversal of perception.

I've been listening to reports from National Guard officers all weekend long. As they explain it, all of those things were done ASAP, But, their troops were stationed outside the hurricane area so that they did not become victims themselves. Supplies were shipped in, guardsmen were shipped in as quickly as damaged roadways would allow, but the vast number of people who stayed behind across hundreds of miles made efforts seem minimal by comparison. Once the personnel, their equipment, and their supplies were in place in adequate numbers, we saw a quick reversal of perception.now that's what I mean. Damaged Roadways, I'm talking Helicopters. dropping a squad or two down at NO to help organize the police and the people probably would've at least cut down on the gang and criminal activity.

and by creating a central "Command" area in NO, it will also give the people trapped in there,
1) hope
2) a line of communication.
3) proof that something is being done.
4) organize people so that the suvivors streached out for hundreds of miles becomes more concentrated in areas and thus be easier to pick up.
5) dropping food that can be rationed will instill more hope and civility in the people and even give them reason to Help instead of loot, rape and pillage.

while the roads are being repaird to the point where the convoy can cross, to the people trapped in the city and other towns, some form of organization will be set up by the guardsmen already there. thus making distribution and organization that much easier and quicker.

Please, I've been a corporate cost accountant for over 30 years. You don't need to explain the difference to me. I was probably supervising and managing people before you were born. Bush was macromanaging in that he left it in the hands of local and state government leaders to handle the details while he backed them up with federal support. That was failing, people were screaming about lack of federal action, so Bush has taken control and appointed others to manage the situation...the military....and they've done a fine job of it, too!! As the president, with the advise of professionals accompanying him, is responsible for assessment of immediate and future needs and the adjustments the federal government will have to make to meet those needs. As with every major disaster to hit this country, the president at the time personally surveys the damage.
I'm not sure what my age or your age has anything to do with this discussion, so you can leave those arguments at home.

However, of course the President surveys the damage. But just like all politicians (and that's what he is, a politician), it's a show. He doesn't look at the flooded city and start making detailed decisions about what needs to be done. He's doing the fly overs to give the appearance that he is doing something tougher than what he is actually doing.

In fact, you even said it yourself: "Bush has taken control and appointed others to manage the situation..."

That's called macromanaging.

to be honest, all Presidents have toured damaged areas.

they let the people who "Supposed" to know what to do, do what they're suppose to do.

that's what Bush did.

to be honest, all Presidents have toured damaged areas.

they let the people who "Supposed" to know what to do, do what they're suppose to do.

that's what Bush did.
And I don't disagree. So long as everyone here is clear that Bush isn't really doing anything, nor should he. He doesn't have the qualifications to make the detailed decisions, and as such, needs to stay out of the way.

I didn't suggest that it had turned down it alltogether, as you can read above. But... USA has not made it easy logistically for countries to respond. Sweden was ready to send an aid plane yesterday, but had to cancel it when the Americans couldn't confirm that it would be able to land!



Okay Sweden fly in and land where... Also we can't say you will be safe we have crazy in the area shooting at our own so if you come you just have to take a chance. There is more involved here... as I don't think the people of Sweden would like to see member of their family killed trying to rescue Americans or anyone else because we could not provide security. Also even local support was delayed because of considerations of where they might go to drop and goods to an area that was safe and secure. All this takes time to set up... Also the big one is air traffic control in the area.. Did they have the tower at New Orleans up and running and what about other air traffic might be in area coming in from around the US with only one airport possibly open.. Did the plane get here from Sweden okay, then what did have to be here yesterday when it is safer for it to come in today or tommorrow at a safe airport and where all the people might be... We still haven't considered they sent people to nine states so were do you land a plane from Sweden to do the most good with it and what it might be bringing in.


to be honest, all Presidents have toured damaged areas.

And when they do the cameras are there and they play to them.. Meanwhile those who should be managing things are busy trying to keep up with him and the cameras. Most of them that are smart come in after things have been done that need to be done... Those they don't hinder progress.... Here with BUSH moving to New Orleans and all the news on New Orleans..


-----------------------------------
Staint Bernard and Jefferson Pasishes are by local news just getting help into them... These are areas not included in New Orleans areas. This is freash off local news at this minute. The rush to perform for the cameras is what caused delays to them. As just the other day saw CNN news talking to two men from Saint Bernard for about two minutes... these two were trying to tell the reporter about what was going on in their areas. The reporter cut them off and went back to New Orleans.. This is why BUSH and NEWS need to be out and let folks do their jobs.

I believe the Swedes that he suggests sending in would be a small group of advisers that would work with the people Bush has working on the problem of how to control the flooding and drain the city...

Get bu$h out of office.

Hey Kanye,

Is there a thread in which you haven't posted something derogatory about Bush?

I'll look and let you know if you've missed any. That seems to be your personal goal.

In the meantime, we aren't worried. Because the intelligent people who can see through the Bush bashing are the ones that vote. And the folks that would buy into your "one-layer-thick" blame that always goes back to Bush make a lot of noise, but can't be bothered to get to the polls (or out of ground zero of a Hurricane) when it comes election time.

Rattle on my friend, it is amusing to watch.

Hawkintom']...the intelligent people who can see through the Bush bashing are the ones that vote.maybe we should put one of the "the intelligent" people in charge of the rescue efforts at NO.....

OooOOOoooOOOUPS!!!......one of them is already in charge.

And when they do the cameras are there and they play to them.. Meanwhile those who should be managing things are busy trying to keep up with him and the cameras. Most of them that are smart come in after things have been done that need to be done... Those they don't hinder progress.... Here with BUSH moving to New Orleans and all the news on New Orleans..actually, if you look at the track records, they are there when it's stable, not when that which needs to be done are done. The Purpose of the Presidental Visit is to bolster the spirits of those affected as well as those giving aid. Nothing More.

Staint Bernard and Jefferson Pasishes are by local news just getting help into them... These are areas not included in New Orleans areas. This is freash off local news at this minute. The rush to perform for the cameras is what caused delays to them. As just the other day saw CNN news talking to two men from Saint Bernard for about two minutes... these two were trying to tell the reporter about what was going on in their areas. The reporter cut them off and went back to New Orleans.. This is why BUSH and NEWS need to be out and let folks do their jobs.then that is not Bush's fault, but the Media who thinks that the President's visit is more important than letting people know what's going on in areas that help has not gotten to.

now that's what I mean. Damaged Roadways, I'm talking Helicopters. dropping a squad or two down at NO to help organize the police and the people probably would've at least cut down on the gang and criminal activity.

and by creating a central "Command" area in NO, it will also give the people trapped in there,
1) hope
2) a line of communication.
3) proof that something is being done.
4) organize people so that the suvivors streached out for hundreds of miles becomes more concentrated in areas and thus be easier to pick up.
5) dropping food that can be rationed will instill more hope and civility in the people and even give them reason to Help instead of loot, rape and pillage.

while the roads are being repaird to the point where the convoy can cross, to the people trapped in the city and other towns, some form of organization will be set up by the guardsmen already there. thus making distribution and organization that much easier and quicker.

I've been making potato salad and thinking about the timeline as I know it for this whole event.
Saturday: Katrina is a class 2 building to a 3 in the gulf
Sunday: Katrina is a 175 mph class 5 with the eye heading straight for New Orleans. Bush declares a state of emergency to mobilize relief functions and FEMA before the storm hits. Mandatory evacuation is ordered. All major TV media outlets and radio stations broadcast the evacuation order and advise of the severity of this storm all day and all night long.
Monday: Predawn. Katrina hits east of NO. The storm rages all across the gulf for over 12 hours. Nightfall. The worst of the storm ends and daylight is awaited to assess the damage. Some looting and foraging for necessities starts.
Tuesday: Daybreak. The levies are holding and flooding is entirely from rain collection. Wind damage is significant. Big collective sigh of relief that worse damage was avoided. People line up trying to get back into their homes. Mississippi has suffered massive damage and great loss of life is predicted. The levies start failing in 2 small areas. Flooding increases. A large section of the levy crumbles and the city fills up rapidly. Looting and gang activity increases drastically. Mobilized guard units are reorganized and redirected to address the new problems created by the flooding. Suddenly, the resources needed in the area multiplied a thousandfold.
Wednesday: Bush leaves Texas for the capitol, flying over the disaster area enroute. Gang activity is escalating in NO, guns are looted from all over the city, and the city breaks down into violent anarchy. Rescue efforts are increased as more guard troops are brought in (from 18,000 to over 30,000) to support law enforcement and rescue operations. The city is flooded with a toxic blend of water, chemicals, fuel, human waste, and decaying bodies. Armed gangs roam the city stealing, killing, raping, and terrorizing the remaining residents.
Thursday: Rescue and evacuation efforts are hampered because of attacks by gangs and roving idiots. The guard is pulled from rescue duty and given orders to stop the criminal activity by whatever means necessary.
Friday: More guard and active military enter the city, bring about peace and order, and kick into high gear on rescue, supply distribution, and evacuation.
Saturday: Completed evacuation of shelters and hospitals. House-to-house search for survivors. Deployment of supply and evacuation boats, helicopters, and vehicles continues throughout the city. Roving gangs have been stopped.
Sunday: House-to-house search and rescue continues. Body count starts in NO. Roving gang attacks group of contractor engineers and is met with deadly military force (5 killed and 3 wounded).
Monday: Estimated 10,000 people left in NO who refuse to leave. All others are believed located and rescued. Evacuees are flown to host cities all over the nation. NO police spokesman appeals for remaining survivors to leave saying there is nothing to stay for, New Orleans is destroyed. Residents in some areas are allowed back into their homes to retrieve belongings left behind. NO mayor announces that it is likely 10,000 people are dead in the city.

All of this in New Orleans...while similar operations are being conducted over hundreds of square miles of LA, MS, and AL.

Edit: NO was hit with 3 destructive events. Hurricane Katrina, floods, gang activity.

Okay Sweden fly in and land where... Also we can't say you will be safe we have crazy in the area shooting at our own so if you come you just have to take a chance. There is more involved here... as I don't think the people of Sweden would like to see member of their family killed trying to rescue Americans or anyone else because we could not provide security. Also even local support was delayed because of considerations of where they might go to drop and goods to an area that was safe and secure. All this takes time to set up... Also the big one is air traffic control in the area.. Did they have the tower at New Orleans up and running and what about other air traffic might be in area coming in from around the US with only one airport possibly open.. Did the plane get here from Sweden okay, then what did have to be here yesterday when it is safer for it to come in today or tommorrow at a safe airport and where all the people might be... We still haven't considered they sent people to nine states so were do you land a plane from Sweden to do the most good with it and what it might be bringing in.

Actually, the plan was to send the Herkules to an airport in Canada (I don't recall where) and wait for clearance from the Americans to be ready, for it to carry on to the affected area. But the USA wouldn't even give enough assurances that it would ever be able to give clearance...

On board amongst other things was water-purification equipment.

Actually, the plan was to send the Herkules to an airport in Canada (I don't recall where) and wait for clearance from the Americans to be ready, for it to carry on to the affected area. But the USA wouldn't even give enough assurances that it would ever be able to give clearance...

On board amongst other things was water-purification equipment.

So, your complaint is, that in view of the massive disaster and the resources directed to dealing with that disaster, the US hasn't had time to set up for the landing of the Hercules and has yet to know how best to use the aid it carries?

At his point, it is doubtful the water in NO can be purified. It will literally cause chemical burns if it touches your skin. The purification equipment may be needed there, or in Texas to help with the waste from so many extra people, or maybe in Mississippi or Alabama. No country can assess the damage and needs of a disaster this great in a week. Following the tsunami, pretty much anything and everything was needed as it wasn't available in those areas. Here in the US we have such technology, but if we fall short of what we need in Mississippi and the aid has been directed to Louisiana, we have another logistics problem getting it where it is needed.

I'm sorry Euroslavia, but I have to take a little exception here--the recommendation that people with experience in crisis management be put in charge of bureaus that deal with crisis management instead of putting in political friends is a constructive suggestion, and that's precisely what I recommended. It's too late to do anything about it for this particular crisis, but the point of this thread had nothing to do with this particular crisis either, but rather, with ways to improve response for future crises. My suggestion deals with that subject, and I still argue that it's a constructive suggestion. That Eutrusca and Zooke took it badly isn't my fault.

After discussion with some of the other moderators, mainly Katganistan, I realize that what you typed could easily be taken either way, as flamebait or as normal debate. It was determined that yours was of normal debating, and I apologize for coming down on you when you've done nothing wrong.

After discussion with some of the other moderators, mainly Katganistan, I realize that what you typed could easily be taken either way, as flamebait or as normal debate. It was determined that yours was of normal debating, and I apologize for coming down on you when you've done nothing wrong.

That's it!! I'm done. This poster follows a specific pattern and obviously there is no accountability.

So, your complaint is, that in view of the massive disaster and the resources directed to dealing with that disaster, the US hasn't had time to set up for the landing of the Hercules and has yet to know how best to use the aid it carries?

At his point, it is doubtful the water in NO can be purified. It will literally cause chemical burns if it touches your skin. The purification equipment may be needed there, or in Texas to help with the waste from so many extra people, or maybe in Mississippi or Alabama. No country can assess the damage and needs of a disaster this great in a week. Following the tsunami, pretty much anything and everything was needed as it wasn't available in those areas. Here in the US we have such technology, but if we fall short of what we need in Mississippi and the aid has been directed to Louisiana, we have another logistics problem getting it where it is needed.

You really misunderstand. I don't think the plane was supposed to purify the water in New Orleans. I think for those that have been evacuated from that city or even the other areas.

ok, I wasn't going to reply but I had to now... first and foremost...I've been making potato salad and thinking about the timeline as I know it for this whole event.I love Potato salad... do you chop the potatos into chunks or Mash them? :D


All of this in New Orleans...while similar operations are being conducted over hundreds of square miles of LA, MS, and AL.

Edit: NO was hit with 3 destructive events. Hurricane Katrina, floods, gang activity.and that I understand that. which is why I haven't blamed anyone for anything except for poor resourse management.

now by Wed. the convoy was still making it's way to NO right? they didn't reach the city till late thursday early friday if I remember right.

so with choppers bringing in the guard as well as Police, I would be assuming that they would also be dropping food and supplies as well right? but I saw no reports of that happening. people were still complaining that food and help had not reached them in the city. there appeared (by what was shone on the news) to be no organization. the survivors were sitting around waiting for help to arrive. and this was on Wed, 5 days. and the news didn't show the Guard that were there or anything that they were doing. (Granted I don't have Fox or CNN where I am, so I rely on ABC/CBS/NBC.)

Here is an issue we all may be forgetting here... New Orleans had in 2000 a polulation of under 490000 people... Where did those who left the city when the evacuation order was given go? What resources were dedicated to them and their care and safety? If you consider that only 1/5 stayed behind in New Orleans they had only about 92000 to remain in the city... So we can figure 400000 exacuated from New Orleans and then the rest of state to provide resources for... as it hit more than just New Orleans. Also MS and AL were hit as well as other states so more resources tied up in local regions trying to save lives.

I never saw anything on shelters already full with those who exacuated before it hit in any area only those that filled up after it hit. How many of those shelters were damaged and people had to be moved from them? As TX got people from more than New Orleans also nine other states took in people to shelters opened there and not all these were from New Orleans.

They had 400000 people most likely more as this only accounts for New Orleans folks evacuated not the other areas might have been. Thus food, water, and shelter was provided for them outside New Orleans and the path of Katrina. Also people to help them were tied up doing that. Thus what resources were not available to those in New Orleans because they have been used to support those evacuated from New Orleans before the storm hit.

If YOU have one bottle of water and four people on YOUr left need it and one on YOUr right needs it who gets the water? If it the last bottle anyone will get for a while..

Here is an issue we all may be forgetting here... New Orleans had in 2000 a polulation of under 490000 people... Where did those who left the city when the evacuation order was given go? What resources were dedicated to them and their care and safety? If you consider that only 1/5 stayed behind in New Orleans they had only about 92000 to remain in the city... So we can figure 400000 exacuated from New Orleans and then the rest of state to provide resources for... as it hit more than just New Orleans. Also MS and AL were hit as well as other states so more resources tied up in local regions trying to save lives.

I never saw anything on shelters already full with those who exacuated before it hit in any area only those that filled up after it hit. How many of those shelters were damaged and people had to be moved from them? As TX got people from more than New Orleans also nine other states took in people to shelters opened there and not all these were from New Orleans.

They had 400000 people most likely more as this only accounts for New Orleans folks evacuated not the other areas might have been. Thus food, water, and shelter was provided for them outside New Orleans and the path of Katrina. Also people to help them were tied up doing that. Thus what resources were not available to those in New Orleans because they have been used to support those evacuated from New Orleans before the storm hit.

If YOU have one bottle of water and four people on YOUr left need it and one on YOUr right needs it who gets the water? If it the last bottle anyone will get for a while..

A good lot of them probably went to live with family.

If your going to take that attitude, then New Orleans should be abandoned, along with San Francisco, LA, New York, half of Holland, East Anglia (look it up), London, Naples... best to prevent the problems eh? You've missed my point, you could have 20 foot high levees, but there's a flaw and it cracks and splits in a mere cat 2 hurricane. So what you do, in order to balance cost of prevention, is to provide suitable recovery for when that fails, because shit happens.

Actually, if New Orleans is that badly screwed, the US definitely has enough land. Why not rebuild New Orleans somewhere over thattaway, on higher ground? While there's a chance to start from scratch?

I've actually read thru the posts, and found your comments to be well placed, save for the political bickering, which happens on any topic where Bush fucks up, and the republicans feel they need to defend him. Honestly, tho, lets discuss this matter a bit further:

#1 - pay attention!! - I personally first saw reports of Katrina warming up in the gulf coast on Saturday afternoon, with the mandetory evacuation being posted at that time. Even tho they wern't sure if NO would get hit dead on, or the hurricane would swing left or right, they knew damage was gonna appen there, and that people needed to leave A.S.A.P. . Since this was the case, local school busses could have taken anyone without their own vehicle outta the city, even if it was only an hour away, dropped them off, and continued onwards... if one school bus holds fifty people, and the city must have what, fifty or so busses, that's 250 people per hour, one way. If local parish's had offered up their busses, perhaps 300 per hour, every hour, on the hour, could've been moved outta the city, where buses from higher districts could have been waiting to take them even further away. So, if the hurricane didn't hit until Monday morning, they could have got out over 10,800 people by Monday 12:01 am. Had they also used other forms of transport (local military transportation, for example), that number might have been closer to 30,000. That would've helped.

#2 - All three dropped the ball - The feds wern't the only ones that didn't do their part. The state and local governments, even with their reduced post-9/11 power, still had a significant part to play in this, and didn't try and play it. Since it was presented to NO three! years prior to this hitting, something should have been in place. The state government, seeing that nothing had been put in place, should have followed up. They didn't. So, before we go blaming Bush, that should be fixed first and foremost. Each state should have a list of proper agencies to turn to depending on the disaster in question.
With that stated, comes part two. The federal goverment needs to revamp it's emergency preparedness. Perhaps putting in qualified candidates instead of personal associates to head the disaster efforts for the nation. Perhaps returning FEMA to it's original state as a cabinet position, instead of a subdivision of Homeland Security. Maybe even give it it's original funding, instead of making them have to ask for money from their own governing group. Make it faster and more efficent to pass bills, resolutions, and funding requests, since 4 days is pure bullshit.

#3 - unintentional racism - Since it seems to be a factor (don't even begin to understand why in this day and age it would be, but signs point to yes here) I think perhaps the people in need of rescue shouldn't be thought of by their race, sex, creed, or religion, and simply rescued. Everyone seemed to ask in this country "Well, it's not because they're black they're stuck there. It's because they chose not to leave." How stupid can you be? If you have no way other than walking to leave an area that's been manditorially evacuated, then it's either walk or sit. They chose to sit. If you can't afford a car, or a bus ticket, then you most likely aren't gonna try and do anything. Well, since NO is 80% black, and 40% of those below the poverty level, obviously they can't do shit to leave. Sooooooo, maybe we shoulda thought about that on Saturday, when we knew the hurricane was gonna hit? hmmmm? maybe?
Also too, the fact that after it hit, it took 4 days to bring people there to actually start helping, even tho news crews had been there since before the hurricane hit, really makes you stop and wonder. CNN can have their troops there, but state and federal troops aren't?????

That's about all i can say on the matter. Other idea's i've seen that sound wonderful, and we'd be blessed if they actually occured: the storage depot idea (tons of closed bases that could house billions of lbs of food, water, and materials), better transportation planning, and Bush outta the fuggin office.

With any luck, the next time a disaster like this occurs, we might actually pull thru a weeeee bit better.

#3 - unintentional racism - Since it seems to be a factor (don't even begin to understand why in this day and age it would be, but signs point to yes here).I would say subconscientious racism

Point 1 couldn't agree with you more but they did so here we are!

Point 2 so they up the levee to survive a level 4 the next one comes is level 5

Point 3 not part of the problem as this is a source of those funds that would be used to upgrade the levee, so ending Mardi Gra where do funds come from

Point 4 See Point 5

Point 5 To drag them from their homes would have been abuse and a violation of their rights to stay. They were told to leave they didn't, you can't force anyone to leave... Also I know two other areas that did not get a warning to evacuate as it was thought they would be safe where they were. Resources that should go to those areas have been diverted to save those told to leave but didn't; because cameras are in New Orleans not were there are people in real need.. These people knew what was coming and were told to move. Many others were not told it was needed now they wait help. Race and poor has nothing to do with it... Play to cameras.... Race and poor make good reviews...

Point 1 is untrue. They didn't build it below sea level. They built it on the Mississippi Delta which, without regular deposits of silt, settles. The city is sinking. It wasn't below sea level when it was built.

Suggestions to improve the US disaster response.

Fire Bush!

I had to come up with the most bizarre idea I could that could actually work.

Wasn't easy. Equal parts silliness and seriousness brought me to one obvious answer:

Giant sponges. I mean, huge sponges. SPonges that can hold 100 times their weight or more in water. Supersponges. Most cities need emergency supplies of giant dry sponges distributed to strategic locations throughout the city. In cases of flooding, like New Orleans, the uses of these sponges are obvious.

But that's just the beginning! In the case of large-scale fires or forest fires, lines of giant sponges can be set up in the path of the flames and soaked to make a natural wet barrier against the spread of fire. In earthquakes, degris can be shifted off of trapped people by stuffing sections of dry sponge into crevices and hosing them down. The expansion will safely shift the debris. And if people have to escape from tall buildings, the giant wet sponges can be used as makeshift rescue bags for jumpers.

Never underestimate the value of a good sponge. :)

I've actually read thru the posts, and found your comments to be well placed, save for the political bickering, which happens on any topic where Bush fucks up, and the republicans feel they need to defend him. Honestly, tho, lets discuss this matter a bit further:

#1 - pay attention!! - I personally first saw reports of Katrina warming up in the gulf coast on Saturday afternoon, with the mandetory evacuation being posted at that time. Even tho they wern't sure if NO would get hit dead on, or the hurricane would swing left or right, they knew damage was gonna appen there, and that people needed to leave A.S.A.P. . Since this was the case, local school busses could have taken anyone without their own vehicle outta the city, even if it was only an hour away, dropped them off, and continued onwards... if one school bus holds fifty people, and the city must have what, fifty or so busses, that's 250 people per hour, one way. If local parish's had offered up their busses, perhaps 300 per hour, every hour, on the hour, could've been moved outta the city, where buses from higher districts could have been waiting to take them even further away. So, if the hurricane didn't hit until Monday morning, they could have got out over 10,800 people by Monday 12:01 am. Had they also used other forms of transport (local military transportation, for example), that number might have been closer to 30,000. That would've helped.

#2 - All three dropped the ball - The feds wern't the only ones that didn't do their part. The state and local governments, even with their reduced post-9/11 power, still had a significant part to play in this, and didn't try and play it. Since it was presented to NO three! years prior to this hitting, something should have been in place. The state government, seeing that nothing had been put in place, should have followed up. They didn't. So, before we go blaming Bush, that should be fixed first and foremost. Each state should have a list of proper agencies to turn to depending on the disaster in question.
With that stated, comes part two. The federal goverment needs to revamp it's emergency preparedness. Perhaps putting in qualified candidates instead of personal associates to head the disaster efforts for the nation. Perhaps returning FEMA to it's original state as a cabinet position, instead of a subdivision of Homeland Security. Maybe even give it it's original funding, instead of making them have to ask for money from their own governing group. Make it faster and more efficent to pass bills, resolutions, and funding requests, since 4 days is pure bullshit.

#3 - unintentional racism - Since it seems to be a factor (don't even begin to understand why in this day and age it would be, but signs point to yes here) I think perhaps the people in need of rescue shouldn't be thought of by their race, sex, creed, or religion, and simply rescued. Everyone seemed to ask in this country "Well, it's not because they're black they're stuck there. It's because they chose not to leave." How stupid can you be? If you have no way other than walking to leave an area that's been manditorially evacuated, then it's either walk or sit. They chose to sit. If you can't afford a car, or a bus ticket, then you most likely aren't gonna try and do anything. Well, since NO is 80% black, and 40% of those below the poverty level, obviously they can't do shit to leave. Sooooooo, maybe we shoulda thought about that on Saturday, when we knew the hurricane was gonna hit? hmmmm? maybe?
Also too, the fact that after it hit, it took 4 days to bring people there to actually start helping, even tho news crews had been there since before the hurricane hit, really makes you stop and wonder. CNN can have their troops there, but state and federal troops aren't?????

That's about all i can say on the matter. Other idea's i've seen that sound wonderful, and we'd be blessed if they actually occured: the storage depot idea (tons of closed bases that could house billions of lbs of food, water, and materials), better transportation planning, and Bush outta the fuggin office.

With any luck, the next time a disaster like this occurs, we might actually pull thru a weeeee bit better.

#1 and #2 Mandatory evacuation=use what you have already-the hundreds of school buses could have been ordered to evacuate people by the Mayor and/or the Governor. They did not. Bush out of office does not fix that.

#3 Yeah, sure. See school bus answer above.

But on the other hand, maybe those cruel heartless politicians steered the hurricane with their secret weather control device,which as we all know only targets people of color, because they thought of the great publicity they would receive from the media, who they assumed would be happy to have the high minority body counts, while poor whites who did not evacuate were air-dropped supplies and guns,and poor black areas received televisions, dvd players and barbecue grills to cook their dead, because all this was ordered by the blonde-haired blue-eyed reptilian alien overlords, who are watching me type this right now, and are charging up the cyclotrode-X death ray as we sp---urgh, argh, death by sarcasm... :gundge:

Also too, the fact that after it hit, it took 4 days to bring people there to actually start helping, even tho news crews had been there since before the hurricane hit, really makes you stop and wonder. CNN can have their troops there, but state and federal troops aren't?????

CNN can have people there because it is much easier to move 3 people (helicopter pilot or news van driver, reporter and camera man) than it is to move a military unit. The news team doesn''t have to load lots of equipment (more than 1 helicopter or vehicle worth), find living space for lots of people, set up a command post with the complexity of the miltary's and can go just about anywhere in the country they please. A good number of reporters where in the storm's direct path....they got hit just like everyone else. It makes no sense to have the rescue teams in the direct path of the storm as then they will need rescuers of their own.

I had to come up with the most bizarre idea I could that could actually work.

Wasn't easy. Equal parts silliness and seriousness brought me to one obvious answer:

Giant sponges. I mean, huge sponges. SPonges that can hold 100 times their weight or more in water. Supersponges. Most cities need emergency supplies of giant dry sponges distributed to strategic locations throughout the city. In cases of flooding, like New Orleans, the uses of these sponges are obvious.


If you used a sponges, one being empted while the others being squeezed out, it could be more effective than pumps, perhaps...

If you used a sponges, one being empted while the others being squeezed out, it could be more effective than pumps, perhaps...

Self-expanding temporary dams. :)