NationStates Jolt Archive

I went to the states to visit my grandparents two weeks ago and I went shopping as well, I put one of the bags on my desk so I could put it away later and today I looked at the bottom (which happened to be facing me) and it reads John 3:16. I looked it up and it says this: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Now, this is from Forever 21. It is not like a christian bookstore or anything like that... so why the hell do they have bible refrences on the bottoms of their bags?

I'm not really sure I want to shop there anymore because of this, I'm not really comfortable with a store trying to preach to me as a customer... I did not go seeking spiritual advice, only a few new items for my closet.

Does anybody else think that this is weird or see where I'm coming from with this?

I do see where you're coming from, but I think that you're overreacting. The store is not "preaching" to you, rather, they are sharing their religion. That has to be one least offensive bible verses that I have ever seen. I think that you should let it slide. They are not imposing their views on you.

Odd bits of religion show up occasionally in packaging, I've seen John 3:16 on the bottom of a paper cup once. I think it is just a Christian in-joke of some sort myself.

I went to the states to visit my grandparents two weeks ago and I went shopping as well, I put one of the bags on my desk so I could put it away later and today I looked at the bottom (which happened to be facing me) and it reads John 3:16. I looked it up and it says this: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Now, this is from Forever 21. It is not like a christian bookstore or anything like that... so why the hell do they have bible refrences on the bottoms of their bags?

I'm not really sure I want to shop there anymore because of this, I'm not really comfortable with a store trying to preach to me as a customer... I did not go seeking spiritual advice, only a few new items for my closet.

Does anybody else think that this is weird or see where I'm coming from with this?If you're going to be offended, well, there's nothing I can say. me, I'll read it and end up using the bag for something else. (if it's a good bag, then maybe I'll use it for gifts or something.

I wouldn't read too much into it. It could be they are printing any popular saying that has the words "forever" in it. try check your other bags from that store.

Ah...my favorite verse.

It does seem strange, but is probably nothing to be worried about, as it is (IMO) the most comforting passage in the Bible.

If it was a passage of how God destroyed Sodom...then I'd be worried about their "agenda".

Wow... that's... frightening.

For those of you who don't see anything wrong with this, consider it having a verse from the Koran, Shruti, Book of the Dead, or even something outlandish like the Necronomicon.

It could be they are printing any popular saying that has the words "forever" in it.

Nope, Forever 21 is a "cheap chic" retail chain selling junior and women's clothes. Apparently, Christian evangelism comes free with purchase. The fine print on their bags reads "John 3:16," referring to a Bible verse. Of course, Forever 21 isn't the first to employ this tacky tactic. In-N-Out Burger has been doing it for years.

If you're going to be offended, well, there's nothing I can say. me, I'll read it and end up using the bag for something else. (if it's a good bag, then maybe I'll use it for gifts or something.

I wouldn't read too much into it. It could be they are printing any popular saying that has the words "forever" in it. try check your other bags from that store.
They didn't put the passage on the bag, they put the chapter and verse number.

It's a rather ugly bag.

Wow... that's... frightening.

For those of you who don't see anything wrong with this, consider it having a verse from the Koran, Shruti, Book of the Dead, or even something outlandish like the Necronomicon.
Exactly.

Wow... that's... frightening.

For those of you who don't see anything wrong with this, consider it having a verse from the Koran, Shruti, Book of the Dead, or even something outlandish like the Necronomicon.

Honestly, I would not be offended if there were passages from the Quran, Talmud, or even the Necronomicon (as long as it wasn't anything that referred to violence, damnation, or exclusiveness arguments).

If you don't want to patronize their store anymore, that's your choice, but I think that people today are becoming so anti-religion that they're leaning to the point of religious oppression. This is a dangerous thing.

While too much religion could be overbearing and counterproductive, oppressing it is every aspect of our daily lives, whether we agree with the religion or not, is something to be wary of, since this can constrict the principles of religious freedom and expression.

well said.

Wow... that's... frightening.

For those of you who don't see anything wrong with this, consider it having a verse from the Koran, Shruti, Book of the Dead, or even something outlandish like the Necronomicon.
Why would versus from the Vedas or the Koran be offensive?

The Necronomicon is a work of fiction not a holy book, I believe every American kid who listened to Heavy Metal in the Eighties had a copy.

The Book of the Dead, not offensive, I dont understand the obsession withthe oppression of religion on these boards.

I am a Christian, I went to job site and low and behold was the large brass elephant head of some Hindu God(Help from a Hindu would be nice here)--Was I offended? NO-the Owner of the Business was Hindi he want this Elephant head representing the face of a particular Hindu God on his wall, big fecking deal.
It is my understanding that Hindu(other then somehow supporting the caste system-which has not been proven conclusively to me)is a very peaceful, pleasant religion teaching many of the same social core values as christianity.

If you are an Athiest and you read that verse-the phrase "No he didnt" should enter your mind.
Or maybe "Crazy Christians advertsing at the bottom of bags.

The public displayso religions like that are no different then a vegetarian getting coupons for saving money on meat in their sunday paper--it isnt their lifestyle choice but it is there and must tolerated.

Lighten up.

Honestly, I would not be offended if there were passages from the Quran, Talmud, or even the Necronomicon (as long as it wasn't anything that referred to violence, damnation, or exclusiveness arguments).

If you don't want to patronize their store anymore, that's your choice, but I think that people today are becoming so anti-religion that they're leaning to the point of religious oppression. This is a dangerous thing.

While too much religion could be overbearing and counterproductive, oppressing it is every aspect of our daily lives, whether we agree with the religion or not, is something to be wary of, since this can constrict the principles of religious freedom and expression.
It would be one thing if they put it out in the open and made it obvious, but they didn't. They did the cowardly thing and hid it on the bottom of their bag so no one would notice until they had already left the store with their non refundable items.

And also, that is not a really inoffensive passage, really. That is the one that you hear preachers go on about when they want to point out why being a christian is better than not being one. It is a commonly used statement to say "I am right, you are wrong" and I don't like having to deal with that shit, honestly. If someone wants to express a religious sentiment, let them do it up front, rather than covertly, so I can at least avoid it easier.

Wow... that's... frightening.

For those of you who don't see anything wrong with this, consider it having a verse from the Koran, Shruti, Book of the Dead, or even something outlandish like the Necronomicon.

It wasn't an actual verse, so I wouldn't be worried about it. Even if it was something from Necronomicon, I would have no idea where it was from if it was just a chapter/verse listing. =/

Wow... that's... frightening.

For those of you who don't see anything wrong with this, consider it having a verse from the Koran, Shruti, Book of the Dead, or even something outlandish like the Necronomicon.

I'm a Christian, and I imagine that if I had a passage from one of thoe books on the bottom of my shopping bag, I'd be able to continue on with my life just fine.

Why would versus from the Vedas or the Koran be offensive?

The Necronomicon is a work of fiction not a holy book, I believe every American kid who listened to Heavy Metal in the Eighties had a copy.

The Book of the Dead, not offensive, I dont understand the obsession withthe oppression of religion on these boards.

I am a Christian, I went to job site and low and behold was the large brass elephant head of some Hindu God(Help from a Hindu would be nice here)--Was I offended? NO-the Owner of the Business was Hindi he want this Elephant head representing the face of a particular Hindu God on his wall, big fecking deal.
It is my understanding that Hindu(other then somehow supporting the caste system-which has not been proven conclusively to me)is a very peaceful, pleasant religion teaching many of the same social core values as christianity.

If you are an Athiest and you read that verse-the phrase "No he didnt" should enter your mind.
Or maybe "Crazy Christians advertsing at the bottom of bags.

The public displayso religions like that are no different then a vegetarian getting coupons for saving money on meat in their sunday paper--it isnt their lifestyle choice but it is there and must tolerated.

Lighten up.

A statue is a completely different matter and it's not as though I don't pass a hell of a lot of christian type statues in my daily life. A statue is at least a work of art, it is pleasant to look at and it does not preach to me. It simply exists and even if one is not religious, one can appreciate the aestetic value of the piece.

Perhaps it's just that I don't encounter that sort of religious advertisement on a daily basis, especially when I'm shopping.

Wow... that's... frightening.

For those of you who don't see anything wrong with this, consider it having a verse from the Koran, Shruti, Book of the Dead, or even something outlandish like the Necronomicon.

Ok, I need to get this out of the way.... H.P. LOVECRAFT INVENTED THE NECRONOMICON! IT IS A WORK OF FICTION! Ahem, well now that thats taken cared of... I don't see anything offensive with having a bible verse on the bottom of a bag (granted im a Christian). Or any religious verse on the bottom of their bag. I mean, this is a privately owned business is it not? For all I care they could write anything they want on their bags. It's their own business what they do and if you dont like then don't shop there its as simple as that.

You're kidding right? :rolleyes: "preaching?" Oh yeah, I forgot, The bag had a cursed Voodoo aura that MADE you look up the verse. First of all, if you knew that you would be offended by this type of stuff, WHY did you look it up in the first place? And then to say that they're shoving it down your throat? :rolleyes: That's like saying, I don't like people who are gay, but I want to go into a gay bar and everyone there has to act like they're straight. Just Because I don't like people who are gay. It's called free speech. If I have to deal with billboards with nearly naked women everywhere I go, you can deal with a one Bible verse.

You're kidding right? :rolleyes: "preaching?" Oh yeah, I forgot, The bag had a cursed Voodoo aura that MADE you look up the verse. First of all, if you knew that you would be offended by this type of stuff, WHY did you look it up in the first place? And then to say that they're shoving it down your throat? :rolleyes: That's like saying, I don't like people who are gay, but I want to go into a gay bar and everyone there has to act like they're straight. Just Because I don't like people who are gay. It's called free speech. If I have to deal with billboards with nearly naked women everywhere I go, you can deal with a one Bible verse.
I didn't enter a christian bookstore or a store that was selling itself as a christian store. If it was selling itself as a christian paraphenalia store, I wouldn't have gone in. This somewhat destroys your analogy there.
I looked up the verse because I wanted to know what they were putting on the bottom of my bag. It is mildly offensive and very tacky. I will not shop there again despite the fact that they have nice clothes as they were trying to sell me their religious beliefs as they sold me some pretty skirts. That is all.

I'm also saying that I find it pretty fucking bizarre that a clothes store would even do that in the first place. I'm from Canada, people don't tend to pull that shit around here.

What a stupid thing to do. They'd never get my business again.

You're kidding right? :rolleyes: "preaching?" Oh yeah, I forgot, The bag had a cursed Voodoo aura that MADE you look up the verse. First of all, if you knew that you would be offended by this type of stuff, WHY did you look it up in the first place? And then to say that they're shoving it down your throat? :rolleyes: That's like saying, I don't like people who are gay, but I want to go into a gay bar and everyone there has to act like they're straight. Just Because I don't like people who are gay. It's called free speech. If I have to deal with billboards with nearly naked women everywhere I go, you can deal with a one Bible verse.


Lighten up.

Yeah, I think Lighten Up about somes my opinion on this whole matter from both sides.

It would be one thing if they put it out in the open and made it obvious, but they didn't. They did the cowardly thing and hid it on the bottom of their bag so no one would notice until they had already left the store with their non refundable items.

And also, that is not a really inoffensive passage, really. That is the one that you hear preachers go on about when they want to point out why being a christian is better than not being one. It is a commonly used statement to say "I am right, you are wrong" and I don't like having to deal with that shit, honestly. If someone wants to express a religious sentiment, let them do it up front, rather than covertly, so I can at least avoid it easier.

I think that your interpretation of it is a bit severe, although I understand how it could upset you in the "I am right, you are wrong" context. Think though, that everytime we see a statue of Shiva (a Hindu god), see a hanukkah candelabra, see anything relating to any kind of religion, we could interpret it as meaning "I am right, you are wrong", since all religious beliefs hold that their own version of things is the correct way. Therefore, any mention of a particular religion could be a reminder that their views might disagree with ours.

And as far as them posting it on the bottom of the bag, it seems that you were interested enough to go through the trouble of looking it up, or else you know your religious verse really well where you were able to recall it from memory.

I think that their planting it on the bottom of the bag could very well have been a means to minimize religious offense, but instead it did the opposite to you for some reason. If it were in big, bold letters, I believe that many people who share your same feelings on this would be "offended" as well. I think that it's a lose/lose situation.

My only advice to offer is to never, ever go back to their store so that they get anymore of your hard-earned money. This way, they are hurt through loss of business, you get to make a statement, and you relieve yourself from further offense.

I don't know what else to tell you...

Meh ... it's a place of business. We call it "freedom of religion". If the powers that be who own the *private* company known as Forever 21 want to put "Go Fuck Your Mother" on their bags, so be it.

We in the States are pretty used to such things. If it's overly offensive, I simply choose not to shop at that establishment. Freedom of Religion goes hand in hand with Freedom of Choice.

Meh ... it's a place of business. We call it "freedom of religion". If the powers that be who own the *private* company known as Forever 21 want to put "Go Fuck Your Mother" on their bags, so be it.

We in the States are pretty used to such things. If it's overly offensive, I simply choose not to shop at that establishment. Freedom of Religion goes hand in hand with Freedom of Choice.
Very well said.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. YOU THINK THE STORE WAS GOING TO PREACH TO YOU??? By printing a verse of the Bible on the bottom of their bags. *wipes tears of laughter from eyes*

Meh ... it's a place of business. We call it "freedom of religion". If the powers that be who own the *private* company known as Forever 21 want to put "Go Fuck Your Mother" on their bags, so be it.

We in the States are pretty used to such things. If it's overly offensive, I simply choose not to shop at that establishment. Freedom of Religion goes hand in hand with Freedom of Choice.

You've summed up my feelings on this in five short sentences. Kudos!

I'm from Canada, people don't tend to pull that shit around here.

"That shit?" heheh
Not very diplomatic when talking about other people's religion, are we?
Or are you talking about freedom of speech or freedom of religion?
Cause you know that "freedom shit" can get out of hand.
I'm from America, and we tend to like that "freedom shit", even if it results in things that we don't always agree with.
Canadians are not much different than us. I should know, I'm half-Canuck myself. So please don't play the country-card.

No. Seriously. This is serious. You think a store is preaching to you by printing a verse from the Bible at the bottom of their shopping bag?

No. Seriously. This is serious. You think a store is preaching to you by printing a verse from the Bible at the bottom of their shopping bag?

Perhaps a little, but it's not out of line with their right to do so. If it were a Muslim owned company, maybe they'd put something nice from Qur'an and, yes, that would be preaching ... just a little.

The only reason I'd take issue with this sort of thing is if it were a government subsidized company. If they started putting "John 3:16" at the bottom of tax return checks, then I'd bitch .... long and loud and clear.

Yes, though ... it is a little preachy. Just a little. But that's ok.

Perhaps a little, but it's not out of line with their right to do so. If it were a Muslim owned company, maybe they'd put something nice from Qur'an and, yes, that would be preaching ... just a little.

The only reason I'd take issue with this sort of thing is if it were a government subsidized company. If they started putting "John 3:16" at the bottom of tax return checks, then I'd bitch .... long and loud and clear.

Yes, though ... it is a little preachy. Just a little. But that's ok.

I get your point about the government-sponsored idea. But I wouldn't mind if the government mandated the printing of "please recycle this bag". Depends on the message.

All-in-all, it's called advertising, or "religionless preaching". I think Dakini is acting WAYY too sensitive.

I think that your interpretation of it is a bit severe, although I understand how it could upset you in the "I am right, you are wrong" context. Think though, that everytime we see a statue of Shiva (a Hindu god), see a hanukkah candelabra, see anything relating to any kind of religion, we could interpret it as meaning "I am right, you are wrong", since all religious beliefs hold that their own version of things is the correct way. Therefore, any mention of a particular religion could be a reminder that their views might disagree with ours.

And as far as them posting it on the bottom of the bag, it seems that you were interested enough to go through the trouble of looking it up, or else you know your religious verse really well where you were able to recall it from memory.
Well, considering that hindhuism isn't really a religion where "I am right you are wrong" quite exists... And as I already mentioned, statues and other symbols posted outright are one thing, hiding messages for unsuspecting customers is another. It's almost like they consider the customers idiots or something. Honestly, that's how it feels.

I think that their planting it on the bottom of the bag could very well have been a means to minimize religious offense, but instead it did the opposite to you for some reason. If it were in big, bold letters, I believe that many people who share your same feelings on this would be "offended" as well. I think that it's a lose/lose situation.
Now it's an insult to my intelligence too.

My only advice to offer is to never, ever go back to their store so that they get anymore of your hard-earned money. This way, they are hurt through loss of business, you get to make a statement, and you relieve yourself from further offense.

I don't know what else to tell you...
Yeah, I don't intend on returning unless they intend on removing the writing on the bottom of their bags.

I didn't enter a Christian bookstore or a store that was selling itself as a Christian store. If it was selling itself as a Christian paraphenalia store, I wouldn't have gone in. This somewhat destroys your analogy there.
I looked up the verse because I wanted to know what they were putting on the bottom of my bag. It is mildly offensive and very tacky. I will not shop there again despite the fact that they have nice clothes as they were trying to sell me their religious beliefs as they sold me some pretty skirts. That is all.

I'm also saying that I find it pretty ******* bizarre that a clothes store would even do that in the first place. I'm from Canada, people don't tend to pull that shit around here.


There is no need for curse words unless you lack the mental capacity to find another word
So, let me get this straight you choose to look up the verse because you wanted to know what was there. Lo and behold it's a Bible verse, now your complaining and refuse to shop there because of a piece of paper? Do you know how utterly laughable that sounds? It's not that serious. Yeah, fine they gave you a verse. Big deal! Throw it away, and buy another skirt. Honestly, a piece of paper shouldn't have that much power over you. Try to fight that Voodoo curse that made you look it up next time, okay?


P.S. Grow up get over it.


Are you presupposing that I go into places that were, as you so eloquently put it, " selling itself as a hooker paraphenalia store?" Like I said, if I can deal with billboards with nearly naked ladies on them you can deal with one Bible verse

I get your point about the government-sponsored idea. But I wouldn't mind if the government mandated the printing of "please recycle this bag". Depends on the message.

All-in-all, it's called advertising, or "religionless preaching". I think Dakini is acting WAYY too sensitive.
They put one of the preachier lines from the bible in there. It's not like they put one about loving everybody or everyone being created equally. They put one about the chrsitian version of redemption.

And as I said, I went into the store to buy clothes, not religion.

I get your point about the government-sponsored idea. But I wouldn't mind if the government mandated the printing of "please recycle this bag". Depends on the message.

He's referring to the separation of Church and State. It's something that the Constitution mandates, so that one religion does not gain preference through the government. This helps foster an openness to other religions, since if the government sponsored one religion in particular, it could lead to ostracizing of peoples from other religions.

He's referring to the separation of Church and State. It's something that the Constitution mandates, so that one religion does not gain preference through the government. This helps foster an openness to other religions, since if the government sponsored one religion in particular, it could lead to ostracizing of peoples from other religions.

1. It is NOT it the constitution, if you ever care to read it sometime

2. This chic/dude is in Canada

They put one of the preachier lines from the bible in there. It's not like they put one about loving everybody or everyone being created equally. They put one about the chrsitian version of redemption.

And as I said, I went into the store to buy clothes, not religion.
You did buy clothes, the religion was free, stop such an ingrate.
Wait, did you check your reciept to make certain you werent charged for that religion?

since all religious beliefs hold that their own version of things is the correct way

Actually .... and I've been known to be wrong about these sort of things ... but I'm pretty sure that the only two religious ways of thinking on the planet that have a "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude and believe themselves to be the only "correct" way of thinking are Christianity and Atheism.

I cannot think of any other religion that goes out of its way to teach a message of "I am the only way" and "none come to the Father but by me" (or, in the case of Atheism, "the Father" would be "rational thought") or "cast out the blasphemous" or refers to anyone not of that way as "hethen" or "misguided" or whatnot. Even Islam - the most demonized religion on the planet right now - only refers to a select small group (that doesn't even exist anymore) as bad or wrong.

I could be wrong, though ... and if I am, please correct me ... but it's Christians and Atheists who are the most outspoken that their way is the only proper way.

"That shit?" heheh
Not very diplomatic when talking about other people's religion, are we?
Or are you talking about freedom of speech or freedom of religion?
Cause you know that "freedom shit" can get out of hand.
I'm from America, and we tend to like that "freedom shit", even if it results in things that we don't always agree with.
Canadians are not much different than us. I should know, I'm half-Canuck myself. So please don't play the country-card.
No, I'm saying that people don't tend to put preachy messages hidden on the bottom of shopping bags. You can say what you want, but come out and say it, don't hide it hoping to appeal to a certain audience and acting like nobody else will notice.
I've seen people preaching on street corners and I walk past them, mormons have stoped me on the street to see if I wanted to go to church with them, they were upfront about what they were selling me there. A clothing store is selling me clothes and they throw religion in on the side. What the hell is that?

We also seem to have this whole valuation for multiculturalism here... where one culture or religion is generally not pushed over another. In general, people will be accomodating rather than trying to talk you into their point of view covertly.

1. It is NOT it the constitution, if you ever care to read it sometime


First Amendment. Congress shall make no law with respect to the establishment of religion.

Hence, printing "John 3:16" on tax return checks would be in violation of the Constitution.

You did buy clothes, the religion was free, stop such an ingrate.
Wait, did you check your reciept to make certain you werent charged for that religion?
I didn't want the religious message. Perhaps I will cut that part off the bag and send it back to the head office with a message saying they can take it back.

They put one of the preachier lines from the bible in there. It's not like they put one about loving everybody or everyone being created equally. They put one about the chrsitian version of redemption.

And as I said, I went into the store to buy clothes, not religion.

Yes yes. But to stop going to store because of a print on the bottom of the bag? Bring your own bag next time.

I guess you're right to feel uneasy. I would be equally uneasy to come out with a bag with naked women printed on the bottom of the bag, but if the merchandise is good enough, I'd go back, and bring my own bag. As long as the sellspeople don't start talking porn to me, I'm fine.

Perhaps I will cut that part off the bag and send it back to the head office with a message saying they can take it back.

That's what I'd do. Wouldn't do any good, of course, but it's the little things that get us by.

Actually .... and I've been known to be wrong about these sort of things ... but I'm pretty sure that the only two religious ways of thinking on the planet that have a "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude and believe themselves to be the only "correct" way of thinking are Christianity and Atheism.

I cannot think of any other religion that goes out of its way to teach a message of "I am the only way" and "none come to the Father but by me" (or, in the case of Atheism, "the Father" would be "rational thought") or "cast out the blasphemous" or refers to anyone not of that way as "hethen" or "misguided" or whatnot. Even Islam - the most demonized religion on the planet right now - only refers to a select small group (that doesn't even exist anymore) as bad or wrong.

I could be wrong, though ... and if I am, please correct me ... but it's Christians and Atheists who are the most outspoken that their way is the only proper way.
Your wrong, Christians and Atheists are simply the loudest.

The Koran-which I have here.
DOes not use the term "Heathen" but it does in essence proclaim it self to be the truth and the way--the other people--the people of the Book are almost right--and everyone else must convert--sooner or later--or deal with the consequences, of God-not suicide bombers. Want to make that clear the Koran does not promote violence at all.

Are you presupposing that I go into places that were, as you so eloquently put it, " selling itself as a hooker paraphenalia store?" Like I said, if I can deal with billboards with nearly naked ladies on them you can deal with one Bible verse
I have no idea where that second quote you quoted came from.

Furthermore, the female form is beautiful anyways and a woman who is partially dressed is not necessarily a hooker, in fact, in the instance you are referring to, you're talking about a model. ;) I hear enough of religion as it is, especially christianity. For all the bad press islam gets, I have never had a muslim try to convert me, I have had plenty of attempts by christians and I'm tired of it, quite honestly. The last place I need it is when I'm shopping for clothes.

I'm a Christian, and I imagine that if I had a passage from one of thoe books on the bottom of my shopping bag, I'd be able to continue on with my life just fine.
Well stated. Tis a case of much ado about nothing.

Paranoia will destroy ya. :eek:

I didn't want the religious message. Perhaps I will cut that part off the bag and send it back to the head office with a message saying they can take it back.
Good idea.

1. It is NOT it the constitution, if you ever care to read it sometime

Ummm, yeah actually IT IS. I had to read it for class this morning, coincidentally. Here, I'll post it for you:

Amendment I of the Consitution of the United States:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech..."

In plainspeak, that means that the United States Government will not show preference to any religion, nor has it any right to stop that shopowner at Forever 21 (whatever the hell it's called) from printing what it printed on its bag. If it wants to put its religious beliefs on their merchandise or containers at the risk of losing customers, that's their choice and right.

So, smartass, maybe you should "care to read it sometime".

2. This chic/dude is in Canada


I know she's from Canada. See my edited post on page 2.

Yes yes. But to stop going to store because of a print on the bottom of the bag? Bring your own bag next time.
Why should I continue to give business to a store that does that sort of thing? If I disagree with the marketing of a religion by a clothing store, then I will not go to the store again unless they have removed the religious refrence. Simple as that. It's even easier since this store does not exist in Canada so I would only be able to go when I visit my grandparents.

I guess you're right to feel uneasy. I would be equally uneasy to come out with a bag with naked women printed on the bottom of the bag, but if the merchandise is good enough, I'd go back, and bring my own bag. As long as the sellspeople don't start talking porn to me, I'm fine.
Well, that's you. I'm simply refusing to spend my money there again.

DOes not use the term "Heathen" but it does in essence proclaim it self to be the truth and the way--the other people--the people of the Book are almost right--and everyone else must convert--sooner or later--

Aye ... but it also clearly states that conversion is a choice. In the Bible, it basically commands all Christians to actively seek out and convert others. The chapter and verse escapes me, but it's near all those bits where the disciples are called upon to be ambassadors for Christ, etc etc.

There is a difference. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but Christianity and Atheism are the only two religious ways of thinking that still actively, boldly, and openly convert. Islam has "Dawa", but that's really nothing more than the example at hand ... a pamphlet or a simple message on a shop bag ... passive. Giving the observer a choice rather than an "in your face" screaming message from a street corner.

Why should I continue to give business to a store that does that sort of thing? If I disagree with the marketing of a religion by a clothing store, then I will not go to the store again unless they have removed the religious refrence. Simple as that. It's even easier since this store does not exist in Canada so I would only be able to go when I visit my grandparents.


Well, that's you. I'm simply refusing to spend my money there again.
Fair enough. But don't take these things too seriously. There are far more important things in life, like pleasing your grandparents. :p

No, I'm saying that people don't tend to put preachy messages hidden on the bottom of shopping bags. You can say what you want, but come out and say it, don't hide it hoping to appeal to a certain audience and acting like nobody else will notice.

Well-stated argument. I see your point more clearly now.
I still think that it's the owners' right to do this, but I'm sure they took into consideration that they'll lose many customers.

First Amendment. Congress shall make no law with respect to the establishment of religion.

Hence, printing "John 3:16" on tax return checks would be in violation of the Constitution.

Meaning Congress should stay out of the church's business.

Perhaps, but making it against the law would against the same amendment.
"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

I suppose putting "In God we trust" on the back of our money should be against the law as well according to you? Should change our country's motto because SOME people don't have the balls enough to deal with it?

Meaning Congress should stay out of the church's business.

Perhaps, but making it against the law would against the same amendment.
"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

I suppose putting "In God we trust" on the back of our money should be against the law as well according to you? Should change our country's motto because SOME people don't have the balls enough to deal with it?

By "Separation of Church and State", I did not mean that this called for the banning of religion. I only meant that it prohibited favoritism to any one religion. By printing "In God We Trust", it does not favor any one type of religion. Shiva is a god. So is Allah. And Jehova. And...you get the point.

But by printing a Bible verse on a tax return, the government would show support for Christianity, which the Constitution prohibits.

I suppose putting "In God we trust" on the back of our money should be against the law as well according to you? Should change our country's motto because SOME people don't have the balls enough to deal with it?
You country's motto is E Pulurubus (sp) Unium (sp) [I have never in my life taken a latin class] It means "one from many". "In God We Trust" was added to curency during the cold war.

And if congress should stay out of the church's business, then the church should stay the hell out of congress' business.

Well-stated argument. I see your point more clearly now.
I still think that it's the owners' right to do this, but I'm sure they took into consideration that they'll lose many customers.
Yes, it is in their rights to do so.

I just find it incredibly odd that they do. It's like when we went to the bank and I noticed a sign that said "No firearms permitted"... we don't have those in Canada.

Fair enough. But don't take these things too seriously. There are far more important things in life, like pleasing your grandparents. :p
Yeah, I spent a lot more time with my grandparents than I did shopping.

You country's motto is E Pulurubus (sp) Unium (sp) [I have never in my life taken a latin class] It means "one from many". "In God We Trust" was added to curency during the cold war.

On July 30, 1956 a law was passed stating that "the national motto of the United States is hereby declared to be 'In God we trust'." (70 Stat. 732. 36 U.S. Code 186). The House Judiciary Committee recognized that the phrase E Pluribus Unum had also received wide usage in the United States, and the joint resolution did not repeal or prohibit its use as a national motto. In 1963 the Department of State took the following position: "'In God we trust'" is the motto of the United States. It seems to the Department, nevertheless, that there is ample basis both in history and in law for calling 'E Pluribus Unum' a motto of the United States." The Congress has used both.

On July 30, 1956 a law was passed stating that "the national motto of the United States is hereby declared to be 'In God we trust'." (70 Stat. 732. 36 U.S. Code 186). The House Judiciary Committee recognized that the phrase E Pluribus Unum had also received wide usage in the United States, and the joint resolution did not repeal or prohibit its use as a national motto. In 1963 the Department of State took the following position: "'In God we trust'" is the motto of the United States. It seems to the Department, nevertheless, that there is ample basis both in history and in law for calling 'E Pluribus Unum' a motto of the United States." The Congress has used both.
Well, then if you got rid of "In god we trust" then you would be keeping one of your mottos. Granted, the one that isn't in english...

It's like when we went to the bank and I noticed a sign that said "No firearms permitted"... we don't have those in Canada.

lol, funny

It might seem moronic when you're looking in from the outside, but considering that it is not illegal (in Florida, at least) to walk into a bank with a concealed firearm if you are licensed and permitted to carry that firearm.

This rule was passed since it was considered that you are at your most vulnerable and in most need of means of self-defense when you are at a bank and/or ATM, since you are likely to be transporting a significant amount of money (enough that would attract unwanted attention, anyway), hence the purpose of a bank.

So the only way a bank could hold someone liable for entering the premises with a firearm, in this instance, would be to post a sign prohibiting the carrying of firearms inside.

And there has not been many (if any) bank robberies by people who are licensed to carry firearms in the State of Florida, as far as I know.

Slipping a secret little jesus-ism into the inside of their bags is not just strange; it's creepy. It's kind of like the christo-hoodoo version of an uninvited love note from the sales clerk. :eek: But the First Amendment guarantees them the right to be this kind of creep, so your only option is never to shop there again.

I'd put it in the same category as Abercrombie & Fitch -- one's bible-ridden, the other is over-sexed, both are vulgar.

Well, then if you got rid of "In god we trust" then you would be keeping one of your mottos. Granted, the one that isn't in english...

Does the concept of God really offend you that much? I noticed that it is an issue near and dear to your heart, since your nation in the game is atheist as well.

Do you feel like it's being forced down your throat? I can understand if it's through people coming up and preaching to you all the time to the point of harassment, but I don't see why passive expressions of religion, or the mere mention of the word "god", would get you so flustered.

I don't think we should change one of our mottos, and not because I believe in God (I really try to put myself in objective viewpoints on issues, most of the time), but because of the zeal that many atheists use in which they try to abolish any mention of God.

As much as Christians who force their views on you upset you, Atheists who force their views on me upset me. So we have a similar plight, afterall.

lol, funny

It might seem moronic when you're looking in from the outside, but considering that it is not illegal (in Florida, at least) to walk into a bank with a concealed firearm if you are licensed and permitted to carry that firearm.

This rule was passed since it was considered that you are at your most vulnerable and in most need of means of self-defense when you are at a bank and/or ATM, since you are likely to be transporting a significant amount of money (enough that would attract unwanted attention, anyway), hence the purpose of a bank.

So the only way a bank could hold someone liable for entering the premises with a firearm, in this instance, would be to post a sign prohibiting the carrying of firearms inside.

And there has not been many (if any) bank robberies by people who are licensed to carry firearms in the State of Florida, as far as I know.
I just thought it was really odd and should be obvious...

There was the same sign on the door at the Great lakes science centre too.

Does the concept of God really offend you that much? I noticed that it is an issue near and dear to your heart, since your nation in the game is atheist as well.

Do you feel like it's being forced down your throat? I can understand if it's through people coming up and preaching to you all the time to the point of harassment, but I don't see why passive expressions of religion, or the mere mention of the word "god", would get you so flustered.

I don't think we should change one of our mottos, and not because I believe in God (I really try to put myself in objective viewpoints on issues, most of the time), but because of the zeal that many atheists use in which they try to abolish any mention of God.

As much as Christians who force their views on you upset you, Atheists who force their views on me upset me. So we have a similar plight, afterall.
I'm not atheist. If my nation is atheist it's because this game gives pretty limited options. If you'll notice, my screen name means angel in sanskrit...

The only issue with the in god we trust being put on everything is that they make it pretty obvious that it's the christian god in question. I don't believe in excluding people, even if they are a minority and if that means having everyone celebrate their own religion in private and among others who want to join them, say in a church, then so be it. That's how it should be, nobody else should have to deal with someone's religion if they don't want to.

I just thought it was really odd and should be obvious...

There was the same sign on the door at the Great lakes science centre too.

I understand. Probably (if I'm wrong, correct me) because concealed weapon carry is not allowed at all in Canada. Here, it's totally legal to walk into a bank carrying a firearm if you're licensed to do so. The only two requirements is that:
1) You have to be licensed in a State that allows such licensing,
2) It must be concealed (unless you're police or a money transport guard or have some other special services license that allows you to have it shown at your hip or whatever).

Not that you really wanted to know, but some things that should seem obvious really aren't. I can see how it would seem funny to you though. :)

I understand. Probably (if I'm wrong, correct me) because concealed weapon carry is not allowed at all in Canada. Here, it's totally legal to walk into a bank carrying a firearm if you're licensed to do so. The only two requirements is that:
1) You have to be licensed in a State that allows such licensing,
2) It must be concealed (unless you're police or a money transport guard or have some other special services license that allows you to have it shown at your hip or whatever).

Not that you really wanted to know, but some things that should seem obvious really aren't. I can see how it would seem funny to you though. :)
I'm actually not really aware of the gun laws in Canada. I have no desire to own a gun and I'm not planning on doing anything in law. I don't even think I've seen a gun (in working order) in real life that wasn't attached to a police officer's belt.

I do find it odd that people feel the need to walk around with guns though. Well, maybe a little more paranoid than odd.

A little, yeah. I wouldn't shop there again. You may consider writing them a letter, because it really is quite inappropiate.

I'm not atheist. If my nation is atheist it's because this game gives pretty limited options. If you'll notice, my screen name means angel in sanskrit...

Sorry, my mistake for assuming.

The only issue with the in god we trust being put on everything is that they make it pretty obvious that it's the christian god in question.

Call me naive, but I see no evidence to support this. There is a concept of God outside of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim theology. It could very well be the mention of a Creator, One without a prophet or an established church.

I don't believe in excluding people, even if they are a minority and if that means having everyone celebrate their own religion in private and among others who want to join them, say in a church, then so be it. That's how it should be, nobody else should have to deal with someone's religion if they don't want to.

You make a valid argument. I disagree though, in that I think that there should be a fine line between harassment and expression, and between expression and oppression. I believe in religious expression, and shared culture and beliefs. I think it enriches our society as a whole, since sharing religion often encompasses sharing culture that's different than ours. I think we should have a reasonably equal voice in our beliefs.

By "Separation of Church and State", I did not mean that this called for the banning of religion. I only meant that it prohibited favoritism to any one religion. By printing "In God We Trust", it does not favor any one type of religion. Shiva is a god. So is Allah. And Jehova. And...you get the point.

"In God We Trust" explicitly favors monotheistic religions. You could make an argument for it favoring theistic religions, but it still favors some more than others. It most certainly doesn't favor the atheistic religions, such as Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism.

Does the concept of God really offend you that much? I noticed that it is an issue near and dear to your heart, since your nation in the game is atheist as well.

Do you feel like it's being forced down your throat? I can understand if it's through people coming up and preaching to you all the time to the point of harassment, but I don't see why passive expressions of religion, or the mere mention of the word "god", would get you so flustered.

I don't think we should change one of our mottos, and not because I believe in God (I really try to put myself in objective viewpoints on issues, most of the time), but because of the zeal that many atheists use in which they try to abolish any mention of God.

As much as Christians who force their views on you upset you, Atheists who force their views on me upset me. So we have a similar plight, afterall.

If I may, I think I get Dakini's argument. I like public displays of religion and religious festivals, even when they're not my religion. It's part of a place's culture. But I don't like being prosyletized (spelling?), and I think, in the US, there's more and more of that going on. And when you've got the media full of extremist fundamentalists yelling that anything that isn't Christian is anti-Christian, and anything that doesn't mention Jesus is bad for society, even though they're crazy, they can still make us hypersensitive to any odd injection of religion. Missionaries patrol my neighborhood like sharks around a reef, and it gets to a point where I can't have a quiet afternoon at home because they're constantly ringing the doorbell to tell me how much better their way of life is than mine. Now, I don't even answer the doorbell if I'm not expecting a visitor. It's not friendly; it's in your face, and, in that kind of passive-aggressive environment, I'd be pissed off at that store, too. They're just another straw on the camel's back, so to speak.

I do find it odd that people feel the need to walk around with guns though. Well, maybe a little more paranoid than odd.

Rest assured that the people who are licensed to carry concealed weapons in the US go through extensive background checks, as well as a firearm familiarization course that must be passed in order to become licensed (while prior history is not a definite determination of the future, it does show a pattern of responsibility).

The ones you need to worry about are the jackasses who carry and aren't licensed to.

"In God We Trust" explicitly favors monotheistic religions. You could make an argument for it favoring theistic religions, but it still favors some more than others. It most certainly doesn't favor the atheistic religions, such as Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism.

Good point. I really have no reply that would be sufficient enough to give you the answer that you deserve.

If I may, I think I get Dakini's argument. I like public displays of religion and religious festivals, even when they're not my religion. It's part of a place's culture. But I don't like being prosyletized (spelling?), and I think, in the US, there's more and more of that going on. And when you've got the media full of extremist fundamentalists yelling that anything that isn't Christian is anti-Christian, and anything that doesn't mention Jesus is bad for society, even though they're crazy, they can still make us hypersensitive to any odd injection of religion. Missionaries patrol my neighborhood like sharks around a reef, and it gets to a point where I can't have a quiet afternoon at home because they're constantly ringing the doorbell to tell me how much better their way of life is than mine. Now, I don't even answer the doorbell if I'm not expecting a visitor. It's not friendly; it's in your face, and, in that kind of passive-aggressive environment, I'd be pissed off at that store, too. They're just another straw on the camel's back, so to speak.

That puts things into perspective for me a bit better. I live in New York City, the liberal capital of the world. (heheh) You do not get the whole Christian oppression thing up here, but I failed to take other parts of the Country, like the Midwest, into consideration. I'm sure you get a much different perspective on things than I do here.

In NYC, there is so much dissent, it almost breaches religious intolerance.
Where you live, there seems to be lack of enough dissent.
It all depends on where you live, it seems, which has a lot to do with our individual perspectives.

Actually, you can carry a concealed weapon in Canada, but not in certain places, eg. Public Transit, Banks, Hospitals(?).

Actually, you can carry a concealed weapon in Canada, but not in certain places, eg. Public Transit, Banks, Hospitals(?).

Ah ok. Thanks for the info. Here, there are limitations, but only on government buildings, bars, and I'm not sure about the hospital thing.

Call me naive, but I see no evidence to support this. There is a concept of God outside of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim theology. It could very well be the mention of a Creator, One without a prophet or an established church.
And the polytheistic religions? Are you going to make it "in god(s) we trust"? What about goddess worshippers? "in god/ess we trust"? What about polytheistic goddess worshippers "in god(s)/ess(es) we trust"? But then you have to deal with the animists, the ancestor worshippers, buddhists et c. There is no reasonable way to include every religious viewpoint present into a motto like that, so the only reasonable thing to do is not to mention it at all. Furthermore, the christian god is the only one that gets called "God" and that's generally how it's spelt (unless it's all in caps) so that means that it's the christian deity in question, with no room for any other monotheistic religion... unless you want to count all the Abrahamic religions as having the same god. Some people don't like to though.

You make a valid argument. I disagree though, in that I think that there should be a fine line between harassment and expression, and between expression and oppression. I believe in religious expression, and shared culture and beliefs. I think it enriches our society as a whole, since sharing religion often encompasses sharing culture that's different than ours. I think we should have a reasonably equal voice in our beliefs.
I find that in the states and to a lesser extent here there is one voice (religiously) that is heard loud and clear over all the others and quite frankly, I'm tired of hearing it. Like I mentioned earlier, the only people who have really got on my case about religion have been christians. Back in highschool, when I was a christian, I would have religious discussions with some muslim and sikh students and we would talk about our religions, ask questions et c...well, I did most of the asking... and when I would try to discuss religion with fellow christians, I got called a heretic because my opinion wasn't identical. I've been told I'm going to hell by christians, never by muslims or hindhus or anybody else.

It just gets tired, really.

Good point. I really have no reply that would be sufficient enough to give you the answer that you deserve.



That puts things into perspective for me a bit better. I live in New York City, the liberal capital of the world. (heheh) You do not get the whole Christian oppression thing up here, but I failed to take other parts of the Country, like the Midwest, into consideration. I'm sure you get a much different perspective on things than I do here.

In NYC, there is so much dissent, it almost breaches religious intolerance.
Where you live, there seems to be lack of enough dissent.
It all depends on where you live, it seems, which has a lot to do with our individual perspectives.

Landsman!! Paisan!! I'm from Queens originally. You don't have to go far. Just get past Duchess County and it's a whole other country, trust me.

I'm in Boston now (yeah, I know), and in my section, it's the Mormons vs. the Assembly of God. :eek: :eek:

I find that in the states and to a lesser extent here there is one voice (religiously) that is heard loud and clear over all the others and quite frankly, I'm tired of hearing it.

I've been told I'm going to hell by christians, never by muslims or hindhus or anybody else.

It just gets tired, really.

I've had the exact same experience, and I feel the same way about it.

I've been told I'm going to hell by christians, never by muslims or hindhus or anybody else.

It just gets tired, really.

You and me both. I had a priest basically say that I'm destined for hell. How bout them apples?

I'm still Christian, though, although not in the contemporary form that most people regard it in. I believe that (and please don't take it that I'm preaching) Jesus did what He did for all people, as long as we look out for one another and put God above all else.

So what does this mean for people like Ghandi, who was a Hindu but a great man? I believe that by people's actions, they put God above all else indirectly, no matter what they believe in.

This is where I break apart from normal Christianity. How can you say that someone is going to hell because he's not a Christian, even if he/she strives to lead a good life?

Many Christians, like those who told us that we're going to hell, are the first to judge, but it's in the Bible that we have no place to judge other people. The religion of Christianity is turning into a hypocrate's paradise, and it makes me sick. It's another escape for elitism, and for people who want to find a way to feel superior to other people. If Jesus saw what it has turned into today, he'd go f#$king apeshit! I truly believe that.

So, just because some @$$wipes turned it into a Starbuck's franchise, with each sect of Christianity fighting for membership/customers/10% of your salary, it does not mean that I don't believe in what Jesus was trying to teach.

Unfortunately, much of Christianity has deviated from these Teachings to the point of losing sight of what the religion was supposed to be about in the first place.

Christianity isn't about religion. I believe that it is about the de-establishment of religion as we have come to know it today. We're so far off-track, I'm not sure if we'll be able to get back. Not anytime soon, at least.

Landsman!! Paisan!! I'm from Queens originally. You don't have to go far. Just get past Duchess County and it's a whole other country, trust me.

I'm in Boston now (yeah, I know), and in my section, it's the Mormons vs. the Assembly of God. :eek: :eek:

Fuggedaboudit!! Whaddayaknow? heheh

I have no idea where that second quote you quoted came from.

Furthermore, the female form is beautiful anyways and a woman who is partially dressed is not necessarily a hooker, in fact, in the instance you are referring to, you're talking about a model. ;) I hear enough of religion as it is, especially christianity. For all the bad press islam gets, I have never had a muslim try to convert me, I have had plenty of attempts by christians and I'm tired of it, quite honestly. The last place I need it is when I'm shopping for clothes.

THIS IS NOT GODESS SATINKA:

Sure, a model whom sells her body for cash, also know as a __________.
Yes, the female form is beautiful (I should know) but not when it's sold to the desires of men.

Never been converted by a muslim huh? You seriously need to get out more. Typically, they're on street corners and you have to try not to make eye contact, once you do... Good luck to ya. Mormons are the worse, they just don't leave you alone. Along with the Jahovah's Witnesses. Atheists are honestly second to the Mormon's I mean after the fifth "There IS NO GOD!" It's kinda like "Yeah, okay, fine, whatever."

They weren't trying to convert you they were just saying "Jesus loves you." They have a right to do that, just like you have the right to say "You can shove that up your arse." I honestly wouldn't stop shopping at a place because I had to know what type of "filth" they're filling my head with.

But, ya know what obviously you don't feel the same way and if you don't want nice clothes because it had where you can find "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, and whomever shall believe in him will not die but have eternal life." on the bottom on a shopping bag it's your loss.


Love Always,
Kalaundrea

You and me both. I had a priest basically say that I'm destined for hell. How bout them apples?

I'm still Christian, though, although not in the contemporary form that most people regard it in. I believe that (and please don't take it that I'm preaching) Jesus did what He did for all people, as long as we look out for one another and put God above all else.

So what does this mean for people like Ghandi, who was a Hindu but a great man? I believe that by people's actions, they put God above all else indirectly, no matter what they believe in.

This is where I break apart from normal Christianity. How can you say that someone is going to hell because he's not a Christian, even if he/she strives to lead a good life?

Many Christians, like those who told us that we're going to hell, are the first to judge, but it's in the Bible that we have no place to judge other people. The religion of Christianity is turning into a hypocrate's paradise, and it makes me sick. It's another escape for elitism, and for people who want to find a way to feel superior to other people. If Jesus saw what it has turned into today, he'd go f#$king apeshit! I truly believe that.

So, just because some @$$wipes turned it into a Starbuck's franchise, with each sect of Christianity fighting for membership/customers/10% of your salary, it does not mean that I don't believe in what Jesus was trying to teach.

Unfortunately, much of Christianity has deviated from these Teachings to the point of losing sight of what the religion was supposed to be about in the first place.

Christianity isn't about religion. I believe that it is about the de-establishment of religion as we have come to know it today. We're so far off-track, I'm not sure if we'll be able to get back. Not anytime soon, at least.

Thank you so much for this post. Especially the part about elitism and feeling superior to others, because that's my entire beef. I'm not a Christian, but I've always respected the teachings of Jesus as a great spiritual philosophy, and it just saddens me -- and scares me -- to see how twisted Christianity has become. And I'll say the same about all the major religions. It's like they're all so caught up in one-upping each other, they're driving themselves nuts. Maybe that's why it's not enough for their followers just to be devout anymore; they have to keep proving it, even with a stupid shopping bag.

They put one of the preachier lines from the bible in there. It's not like they put one about loving everybody or everyone being created equally. They put one about the chrsitian version of redemption.

And as I said, I went into the store to buy clothes, not religion.
Why in God's name [ pun intended ] are you so offended? That's what I can't understand. How did this store offend you so? You're reacting way, way out of proportion.

Fuggedaboudit!! Whaddayaknow? heheh
OMG (pardon the expression ;) ), I moved north and my friends moved south, and now we're like, ack! where the hell are we??

(I'm afraid of Americans.)

Thank you so much for this post. Especially the part about elitism and feeling superior to others, because that's my entire beef. I'm not a Christian, but I've always respected the teachings of Jesus as a great spiritual philosophy, and it just saddens me -- and scares me -- to see how twisted Christianity has become. And I'll say the same about all the major religions. It's like they're all so caught up in one-upping each other, they're driving themselves nuts. Maybe that's why it's not enough for their followers just to be devout anymore; they have to keep proving it, even with a stupid shopping bag.

I believe that there are those out there who are sincerely so excited and enamoured (sp?) with their faith, that they want to share it with everybody and share the good feeling. Then there are those that feel like they're obliged to do it, in some blind ambition to prove themselves (in the eyes of God, in the eyes of their fellow religious followers, whatever).
It's like the father that shoved religion down their kids' throat, and those kids growing up to feel that obligation all the way through adulthood. This is not what religion is supposed to be. It's supposed to be liberating. At least my view on religion is to me.

Liberating religion? That's a lost concept today...

I believe that there are those out there who are sincerely so excited and enamoured (sp?) with their faith, that they want to share it with everybody and share the good feeling. There are those that feel like they're obliged to do it, in some blind ambition to prove themselves (in the eyes of God, in the eyes of their fellow religious followers, whatever).
It's like the father that shoved religion down their kids' throat, and those kids growing up to feel that obligation all the way through adulthood. This is not what religion is supposed to be. It's supposed to be liberating. At least my view on religion is to me.

Liberating religion? That's a lost concept today...
I agree. There's definitely a daddy-love-me vibe in the air, whether that daddy is god or some preacher or a peer group. You can tell the difference, too. There's a sense of pressure, anxiety, even hostility in the preaching of the obligated/ambitious, even when they're being polite. That's totally absent from those who are sincerely faithful, by which I mean the kind of people who remind me of St. Francis of Assisi.

It's nearly 3am in Boston, which means it's nearly 3 in NYC, too. Pick this up again later? Nighty-night. :D

Wow... that's... frightening.

For those of you who don't see anything wrong with this, consider it having a verse from the Koran, Shruti, Book of the Dead, or even something outlandish like the Necronomicon.
A private business should be able to put whatever it wants on its bags.

I didn't enter a christian bookstore or a store that was selling itself as a christian store. If it was selling itself as a christian paraphenalia store, I wouldn't have gone in. This somewhat destroys your analogy there.

I looked up the verse because I wanted to know what they were putting on the bottom of my bag. It is mildly offensive and very tacky. I will not shop there again despite the fact that they have nice clothes as they were trying to sell me their religious beliefs as they sold me some pretty skirts. That is all.

I'm also saying that I find it pretty fucking bizarre that a clothes store would even do that in the first place. I'm from Canada, people don't tend to pull that shit around here.
I agree that it's bizarre, but what is so offensive about Christianity? I don't see why a Bible reference on the bag is reason to deprive yourself of that store's nice clothes. Are you that anti-religious?

Well, considering that hindhuism isn't really a religion where "I am right you are wrong" quite exists... And as I already mentioned, statues and other symbols posted outright are one thing, hiding messages for unsuspecting customers is another. It's almost like they consider the customers idiots or something. Honestly, that's how it feels.

Now it's an insult to my intelligence too.

Yeah, I don't intend on returning unless they intend on removing the writing on the bottom of their bags.
You're the stereotype of a Christian-phobic leftist that conservatives love to laugh at. You are specifically discriminatory against Christianity because you have no problem with Hinduism, but Christianity is greatly offensive to you. So the absolutism of Christianity is offensive, but the outright classism and racism of Hinduism is not? India's caste system came from Hinduism. In its view, some people are born royalty, and some deserve nothing but a life os slavery. That's worse than any Christian practice.

Hinduism is mostdefinitely a religion where "I am right you are wrong" exists. Maybe you are thinking of Buddhism. And even in that case, there have been Buddhist theocracies, and some of them are quite evangelical and elitist.

calm down or grow up, one or both pls :)


Really, Liberating religion a lost concept?

What is love? Friendship? omg you're all such n00bs!
Religion is what an individual makes of it, just as with all things.

See the poll.." Do you see something weird about this? "

That's the point really, not "Is this freaky?"

Sure you're all lovely people really, try and see that other ppl aren't always out to get you :p

Hey, guess what? Ads with nearly naked women offend me far more than a verse from the writings of Siddharta Gotthama/Upanishads/Qu'ran would. And you don't have a choice about the ads with naked women in them.

:eek: I'm listening to a song which just used the line "You're the defender God has sent" in it. The shop didn't tell me that it would. Neither do I mind the references to "gods of metal".

Really, it's their own business, they can put writings from the Little Red Book, if they want to. In what way is a religious sentiment more "offensive" than any other sentiment?

I guess I would spent a few days wondering why on earth they felt the need to put that on the bag, not reaching any halfway sensible conclusion. And I don't think I would go back to that store...
I feel slightly (not overly, but just slightly) offended and troubled by that in two ways:

I'm Christian myself, and I find it highly dubious to try and use religious material or scripture that much out of context. I wouldn't call it blasphemy, but it is disrespectful in my eyes, using scripture to encourage sales? I think the bible has a few things to say about that, if I remember correctly.
Secondly, I would imagine what an atheist or somebody of non-Christian religion would think of that, and that's when it becomes truly offensive. Nobody should ever preach to people who didn't asked to be instructed in faith. Not even a stupid store...

So, yes, it's extremely odd, and no, I wouldn't go back there again.

Hey, guess what? Ads with nearly naked women offend me far more than a verse from the writings of Siddharta Gotthama/Upanishads/Qu'ran would. And you don't have a choice about the ads with naked women in them.

:eek: I'm listening to a song which just used the line "You're the defender God has sent" in it. The shop didn't tell me that it would. Neither do I mind the references to "gods of metal".

Really, it's their own business, they can put writings from the Little Red Book, if they want to. In what way is a religious sentiment more "offensive" than any other sentiment?

So, you're ok with having the bible used in a profane way like that, to make profit for a store that has otherwise not interest whatsoever in people's souls, just in their purses?

So, you're ok with having the bible used in a profane way like that, to make profit for a store that has otherwise not interest whatsoever in people's souls, just in their purses? It's on the bottom of the bag. Dakini didn't see it until he left the place.

It's on the bottom of the bag. Dakini didn't see it until he left the place.

So?

So? Stop it, you're violating my mind with new thoughts. Maybe you have a point.

Stop it, you're violating my mind with new thoughts. Maybe you have a point.

*lol
I always seem to end up doing that, sorry...

*lol
I always seem to end up doing that, sorry... My mind is vulnerable at this moment, got up at 4:30 this morning to catch a plane…
…even so, it's still their right. In bad taste yes, but not illegal. If the phrase "Death to all who do not follow the Mactarian Chaos Cult" was on it, it wouldn't offend me, and we shouldn't ban offensive things… unless they're really offensive (and I don't count that Barnardos cockroach-baby thing as unnecessarily offensive).

My mind is vulnerable at this moment, got up at 4:30 this morning to catch a plane…
…even so, it's still their right. In bad taste yes, but not illegal. If the phrase "Death to all who do not follow the Mactarian Chaos Cult" was on it, it wouldn't offend me, and we shouldn't ban offensive things… unless they're really offensive (and I don't count that Barnardos cockroach-baby thing as unnecessarily offensive).

I didn't dispute their right to put it on that bag, not at all. but I think it is extremely bad taste bordering on offensive, and I wouldn't shop there again.

It would be one thing if they put it out in the open and made it obvious, but they didn't. They did the cowardly thing and hid it on the bottom of their bag so no one would notice until they had already left the store with their non refundable items.

And also, that is not a really inoffensive passage, really. That is the one that you hear preachers go on about when they want to point out why being a christian is better than not being one. It is a commonly used statement to say "I am right, you are wrong" and I don't like having to deal with that shit, honestly. If someone wants to express a religious sentiment, let them do it up front, rather than covertly, so I can at least avoid it easier.

The owners of the store did not try to force their religion on you, but simply printed a Bible reference on the bottom of the bag. They shared their faith in the most unobtrusive way possible, and only with those who knew the verse or cared to look it up. The Biblical reference is a sign to others that this is a Christian run shop that follows Christian principals of honesty, brotherhood, love, etc. Personally, when I come across a shop that lets me know that they are followers of a faith (Christian, Muslim, Judaism, etc), I feel more confident that they take their beliefs seriously and will treat others accordingly.

It is a commonly used statement to say "I am right, you are wrong"

No, it's not. It is a verse that offers hope and inspiration as it signifies to Christians the sacrifice made in love for mankind and the hope for eternal salvation. I have never heard it used as an indication of superiority and the text of it does not even imply that.

If you have such a bias against Christians that you can't tolerate a simple Biblical reference on the bottom of a bag that will probably hit the trash, then don't shop there. But, ask yourself, would you not patronize a shop that burned incense to honor departed ancestors, or a shop where the clerk wore a kippot, or a crucifix, or a prayer shawl, or how about the shops that print the Star of David or a guiding star during holiday season? It's really just a matter of how tolerant you are of the beliefs of others.

I didn't dispute their right to put it on that bag, not at all. but I think it is extremely bad taste bordering on offensive, and I wouldn't shop there again. Yar, I was just pointing out how it couldn't be very offensive in a secular sense.

If you have such a bias against Christians that you can't tolerate a simple Biblical reference on the bottom of a bag that will probably hit the trash, then don't shop there. But, ask yourself, would you not patronize a shop that burned incense to honor departed ancestors, or a shop where the clerk wore a kippot, or a crucifix, or a prayer shawl, or how about the shops that print the Star of David or a guiding star during holiday season? It's really just a matter of how tolerant you are of the beliefs of others.

I think there is a difference between expressing personal belief by wearing a cruifix and by using bible verses as advertisement.
I don't have a problem with an employee expressing his or her religion by wearing religious clothes or jewellery, but I do have a problem with an entire company using religion for business reasons. If one person expresses faith, it's just that, an expression. If a whole company does it, it borders on discriminiation.

I would seriously mistrust any company that doesn't respect religion enough to keep it out of business matters.

It definately sounds rather strange. And kind of pointless to me. But i think i could get over it very easily.... as long as the products originally contained in those bags were good. Otherwise i might have to go back and complain about the products then go into an "and as for that bible verse" rant.

But meh. Its no big deal. Imagine how Jehovah's Witnesses feel at christmas time when they go shopping.. Offensive material is on just about every bag they see. Not to mention, shop windows, peoples houses, cars, buses, city centres, schools, shopping centre displays, stupid earrings, clothes, TV, over the radio with carols etc.... So if the JWs can get over being offended by EVERYTHING being plastered with christmas bollocks all throughout december I dont think it should be too difficult for the rest of us to get over a wee bible verse in the bottom of a bag... However strange it may be.

Yar, I was just pointing out how it couldn't be very offensive in a secular sense.

Well, it did offend some non-Christians on this forum, it seems...

Store owners have the right to express themselves and to appeal to specific clients. You have to decide if you are tolerant enough to accept differences in others and respect their rights. No one is forcing you to read the scripture reference, much less believe in the Christian religion. If you choose not to shop there even though you like their products, then you're hurting yourself more than anyone else.

I would seriously mistrust any company that doesn't respect religion enough to keep it out of business matters.

In most things i tend to agree with your posts on here... But if we put the above into practice then every greeting card company in the world would be shut down. And what would my relatives send me lottery tickets in for my birthday then? what then i ask you???!!!! WHAT THHEEEEEEEEEEN!!!???

*mutters* Lousy cheap relatives

In most things i tend to agree with your posts on here... But if we put the above into practice then every greeting card company in the world would be shut down. And what would my relatives send me lottery tickets in for my birthday then? what then i ask you???!!!! WHAT THHEEEEEEEEEEN!!!???

*mutters* Lousy cheap relatives

Um... simple envelopes? ;)

I think there is a difference between expressing personal belief by wearing a cruifix and by using bible verses as advertisement.
I don't have a problem with an employee expressing his or her religion by wearing religious clothes or jewellery, but I do have a problem with an entire company using religion for business reasons. If one person expresses faith, it's just that, an expression. If a whole company does it, it borders on discriminiation.

I would seriously mistrust any company that doesn't respect religion enough to keep it out of business matters.

Businesses are privately owned. They are not an extension of government. Many companies, usually the smaller ones, project the owners' views and beliefs, whether it is a scripture reference or a reference to NASCAR. In this case, the shopkeeper did not force his views on anyone as no one is forced to shop there. Just as some people who reject alcoholic beverages won't shop where they are sold, you have the right to not patronize a shop that doesn't share your ideology.

Um... simple envelopes? ;)

Too true. And it would be even cheaper for them. cheapskates

Nuts, foiled again, eh kids?

Store owners have the right to express themselves and to appeal to specific clients. You have to decide if you are tolerant enough to accept differences in others and respect their rights. No one is forcing you to read the scripture reference, much less believe in the Christian religion. If you choose not to shop there even though you like their products, then you're hurting yourself more than anyone else.

Luckily, I live in Europe. If you stay away from places like Lourdes or Altoetting, you are in hardly any danger to have religion heaped upon you in any way.
And, yes, I do tend to stay away from shops that exagerate their christmas decoration or play christmas songs ... I find that annoying.

As I said, I don't see any legal reason for opposing this strange idea with the bag, but I find it slightly offensive, troubling and out of place. I would react exactly the same way to some nostalgic communist slogan or anything in that league, really. And I wouldn't shop there.

It's just a book. You throw away the bag. :rolleyes:

This year, at christmas, i think i will put random Beatles lyrics on business cards and put them in my customers bags.

See what happens when people get home and instead of having a business card with my name on it they get a very strong declaration from me that "I am the walrus!"




I wonder if anyone would post comments on an internet forum if that happend to them....... I would feel so special.

It's just a book. You throw away the bag. :rolleyes:

Exactly. I hardly think the shopkeeper "heaped" his views on anyone. A tiny, discreet reference was made on the bottom of a sack that is thrown away. If Dakini hadn't purposely looked up the scripture, he/she would have had no idea what it said or the reference made. It is also Dakini's ignorance and possibly prejudice that made him misunderstand the message imparted in that scripture. Rather than a message of intolerance, it is a message of hope and love. The shopkeeper was in a small way sharing good thoughts and wishes to his customers.

This year, at christmas, i think i will put random Beatles lyrics on business cards and put them in my customers bags.

See what happens when people get home and instead of having a business card with my name on it they get a very strong declaration from me that "I am the walrus!"

I wonder if anyone would post comments on an internet forum if that happend to them....... I would feel so special.

If a person imparts a sentiment to you that is of importance to them, then it carries the weight of sincerity and conviction. If they impart a sentiment that parrots your ideologies, it carries nothing but the weight of words. We patronize a local store owned and operated by a Muslim family from Kashmire. We have found these folks to be warm and wonderful and have developed a bond of friendship. Always the owner or his wife will say "May Allah bless you". I'm not Muslim. But, they are asking for special favors and blessings for people they care about from Allah. I am honored.

If a person imparts a sentiment to you that is of importance to them, then it carries the weight of sincerity and conviction. If they impart a sentiment that parrots your ideologies, it carries nothing but the weight of words. We patronize a local store owned and operated by a Muslim family from Kashmire. We have found these folks to be warm and wonderful and have developed a bond of friendship. Always the owner or his wife will say "May Allah bless you". I'm not Muslim. But, they are asking for special favors and blessings for people they care about from Allah. I am honored.

So ... you wouldn't feel you were being had on if Walmart started printing bible verses on its bags? Just as an example...

So ... you wouldn't feel you were being had on if Walmart started printing bible verses on its bags? Just as an example...
Me not at all.

Maybe I would start collecting them, but then I might as well buy a bible and be cheaper off *ponders*

Me not at all.

Maybe I would start collecting them, but then I might as well buy a bible and be cheaper off *ponders*

Me, I would.
A personal, honest blessing is one thing. I don't have any problem with a small shop having religious decoration in any way. What I do have a problem with is big businesses or chains using religion as advertisement... that doesn't feel right.
I'm not the most religious person there is, not by far, but that somehow feels disrespectful.

So ... you wouldn't feel you were being had on if Walmart started printing bible verses on its bags? Just as an example...

Walmart is a publically held corporation and cannot reflect the views of only a segment of it's shareholders. (you're also assuming I would subject myself to shopping in such a den of chaos ;) ) A privately owned company can do whatever they wish. EDIT: and no, I wouldn't feel put off if a shop extended a sincerely held belief to me in a spirit of good will.

Let me put it this way....suppose you had done something very nice for me. In appreciation, I make a casserole for you. You discover that not even your dog will eat the casserole. Do you think "That Sandy went way out of line by giving me this garbage!" or do you realize that my heart was in the right place but my cooking skills went out the window and appreciate the intent?

Me, I would.
A personal, honest blessing is one thing. I don't have any problem with a small shop having religious decoration in any way. What I do have a problem with is big businesses or chains using religion as advertisement... that doesn't feel right.
I'm not the most religious person there is, not by far, but that somehow feels disrespectful.
Do you really think some oldsters would start thinking: "From now on I'm going to shop at Walmarts every day because I get this beautiful, printed blessing on my bag"?

Walmart is a publically held corporation and cannot reflect the views of only a segment of it's shareholders. (you're also assuming I would subject myself to shopping in such a den of chaos ;) ) A privately owned company can do whatever they wish. EDIT: and no, I wouldn't feel put off if a shop extended a sincerely held belief to me in a spirit of good will.

Let me put it this way....suppose you had done something very nice for me. In appreciation, I make a casserole for you. You discover that not even your dog will eat the casserole. Do you think "That Sandy went way out of line by giving me this garbage!" or do you realize that my heart was in the right place but my cooking skills went out the window and appreciate the intent?
As IF! Your cooking is legendary! :D

Walmart is a publically held corporation and cannot reflect the views of only a segment of it's shareholders. (you're also assuming I would subject myself to shopping in such a den of chaos ;) ) A privately owned company can do whatever they wish.

Let me put it this way....suppose you had done something very nice for me. In appreciation, I make a casserole for you. You discover that not even your dog will eat the casserole. Do you think "That Sandy went way out of line by giving me this garbage!" or do you realize that my heart was in the right place but my cooking skills went out the window and appreciate the intent?

The difference is, I know your intentions. And I would know the intentions of the Muslim shopkeeper you mentioned, and both would be fine with me.
However, if an anonymus supermarket or chain is trying the same thing, I would assume that they're using it for the money. I don't know how small that shop was that Dakini mentioned, but I daresay it was a larger chain, as others here seemed to know it. And in that case, I would feel they are trying to use religious sentiment to advertise themselves, which I cannot approve.

Do you really think some oldsters would start thinking: "From now on I'm going to shop at Walmarts every day because I get this beautiful, printed blessing on my bag"?
"Oldsters?" "Oldsters?" WTF does age have to do with it???

Do you really think some oldsters would start thinking: "From now on I'm going to shop at Walmarts every day because I get this beautiful, printed blessing on my bag"?

You obviously haven't met my grandma... she's just the person to fall for this kind of campaign.

As IF! Your cooking is legendary! :D

Welcome back sugar booger!! I once made a casserole for our friends from Kashmire that had bacon crumbles in it. :rolleyes: stupid, stupid, stupid.

EDIT: and no, I wouldn't feel put off if a shop extended a sincerely held belief to me in a spirit of good will.

It's the sincerity I sincerely doubt... ;)

"Oldsters?" "Oldsters?" WTF does age have to do with it???
Just that statistically they are more religious.

No offence. I was just picking some example.

You obviously haven't met my grandma... she's just the person to fall for this kind of campaign.
Well it's either that or naked women for all the male customers

The difference is, I know your intentions. And I would know the intentions of the Muslim shopkeeper you mentioned, and both would be fine with me.
However, if an anonymus supermarket or chain is trying the same thing, I would assume that they're using it for the money. I don't know how small that shop was that Dakini mentioned, but I daresay it was a larger chain, as others here seemed to know it. And in that case, I would feel they are trying to use religious sentiment to advertise themselves, which I cannot approve.

I didn't catch the name of the store. At least it wasn't familiar. If they were trying to promote themselves by advertising religion, I doubt they would put the reference on the bottom of the bag. If they were wanting to share the brotherhood and love of their beliefs, even with non-believers, then it is a gift.

Well it's either that or naked women for all the male customers

Why do they all have to go for extremes? Why not simply print a nice little joke to brighten your day with a laugh? ;)

So, yes, it's extremely odd, and no, I wouldn't go back there again.
When their clothes are that good, are you sure that's a good enough reason not to go back?

It's the sincerity I sincerely doubt... ;)

It's impossible to know the real motivation of these people. But, if you accept it as a sincere token of their goodwill, then any fault would lie on them.

Why do they all have to go for extremes? Why not simply print a nice little joke to brighten your day with a laugh? ;)
Some people don't appreciate jokes. Or don't get them. Etc.

PS: I'm not saying that isn't a good idea. I love to laugh.

Why do they all have to go for extremes? Why not simply print a nice little joke to brighten your day with a laugh? ;)

LP and Eut together in a thread? Most extreme!!

I just thought it was really odd and should be obvious...

There was the same sign on the door at the Great lakes science centre too.


No more obvious, certainly, than a "No Smoking" sign in a gas station, but you see those all the time.

When their clothes are that good, are you sure that's a good enough reason not to go back?

If I remember correctly, it was a bookstore. And me as a librarian deciding to give a bookstore a miss... but yes, I would stay away from that place.

It's impossible to know the real motivation of these people. But, if you accept it as a sincere token of their goodwill, then any fault would lie on them.

I do trust individuals. But I don't trust groups. Especially not groups that exist for purpose of profit... ;)

No more obvious, certainly, than a "No Smoking" sign in a gas station, but you see those all the time.

"SLOW CHILDREN AT PLAY"
Well, give them some vitamins and see if that doesn't speed them up a little.

I do trust individuals. But I don't trust groups. Especially not groups that exist for purpose of profit... ;)

If the store offers a product I want and in some way they impart their ideology to me, I will accept their offering in a good spirit and let them worry about their own motives.

LP and Eut together in a thread? Most extreme!!
it happens. Usually I go around insulting old people (jokingly as always) and Eutrusca shows up...... or the other way around.

I do love the geezer though :fluffle:

If the store offers a product I want and in some way they impart their ideology to me, I will accept their offering in a good spirit and let them worry about their own motives.

I don't know about the US, but the European book market is set up in a way that will allow each and every bookstore to order in any book available within 48 hours. And while the price of books is no longer regulated, almost all bookstores will sell at the price recommended by the publishing house.

So, I don't choose my bookstores by what they have to offer...

I went to the states to visit my grandparents two weeks ago and I went shopping as well, I put one of the bags on my desk so I could put it away later and today I looked at the bottom (which happened to be facing me) and it reads John 3:16. I looked it up and it says this: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Now, this is from Forever 21. It is not like a christian bookstore or anything like that... so why the hell do they have bible refrences on the bottoms of their bags?

I'm not really sure I want to shop there anymore because of this, I'm not really comfortable with a store trying to preach to me as a customer... I did not go seeking spiritual advice, only a few new items for my closet.

Does anybody else think that this is weird or see where I'm coming from with this?

Weird? It's sick. Simple as that.

So, I don't choose my bookstores by what they have to offer...
so how DO you choose?

it happens. Usually I go around insulting old people

Step carefully young man!! I get even.

Yes it's a little strange but what the H. If it offends you that much better not let anyone say anything none factual in case they offend.
Surely it was interesting and made you think if nothing else, is that not always a good thing.
Quote me any good quote and it will make me think, from any source, it won't offend.

"What we must learn to do we learn by doing."

Or "Hope makes a good breakfast but a poor supper."

Both might get you thinking, the verse reference on the bag should have been more provocative.

I am a Christian and I take offense to it.

It cheapens the message and is a bit disturbing. This esample illustrates it more clearly than I could describe.

Some time back I saw a woman in a Lincoln with two bumper stickers. One said; "I (heart) My Poodle" the other said "I (heart) Jesus"

Do you see the problem with that?

If not, then you are beyond the help I could provide.

BTW - "In-n-Out Burger" hmmm - nope. Nothing sexual about that! We could have fun with THAT name for quite a while!

so how DO you choose?

Good sales people who know their stock and the international book market.
Good, balanced selection of books in store
Good atmosphere (quiet, not too commercial)
Reachable by foot or bus.

Step carefully young man!! I get even.
I never mean it....

*innocent puppy eyes*

I googled Forever 21 and it seems to be a clothing retailer with the highest concentration of stores on the coasts. I have no idea what their corporate structure is. Something we haven't thought of is what if the scriptural reference is something the bag manufacturer includes?

Good sales people who know their stock and the international book market.
Good, balanced selection of books in store
Good atmosphere (quiet, not too commercial)
Reachable by foot or bus.
....So. "No religious prints" not on the list? :p

....So. "No religious prints" not on the list? :p

No. Well-balanced stock includes religious works, meaning all mainstream religions and maybe a few relevant smaller ones.. They should be found in every bookshop.

I never mean it....

*innocent puppy eyes*

I know. And I have you figured for the same kind of manipulative kid that my favorite grandson is. Gotta love ya.

Edit: Maybe not "favorite"...but the one who gets by with the most.

No. Well-balanced stock includes religious works, meaning all mainstream religions and maybe a few relevant smaller ones.. They should be found in every bookshop.
I meant "...prints on the bag" :rolleyes:

I googled Forever 21 and it seems to be a clothing retailer with the highest concentration of stores on the coasts. I have no idea what their corporate structure is. Something we haven't thought of is what if the scriptural reference is something the bag manufacturer includes?

They don't. They don't put anything on the bag except what you ask them to. If they did, they might easily find themselves in deep water, as the retailer might have the same opinion on religious references on throw-away articles that are supposed to advertise his business.

I meant "...prints on the bag" :rolleyes:

Never found any so far. But if I did, that shop would be of the list. Unless it was a religious bookshop to begin with.

I know. And I have you figured for the same kind of manipulative kid that my favorite grandson is. Gotta love ya.

Edit: Maybe not "favorite"...but the one who gets by with the most.
Hey I'm not manipulative. I'm just nice on the right occasions ;)

And Cabra: Suit yourself. More books for us :D ;)

And Cabra: Suit yourself. More books for us :D ;)

Last time I counted, I had about 2500 at home at the moment, plus I take out from the library... believe me, I'm in no danger of ever running out of books to read ;)

Last time I counted, I had about 2500 at home at the moment, plus I take out from the library... believe me, I'm in no danger of ever running out of books to read ;)
Now I'm jealous. But then again, why have too many books to read? (EDIT: or too choose from? I mean. Goddamn!)

Just forget it and live your life, it's no big deal.

I went to the states to visit my grandparents two weeks ago and I went shopping as well, I put one of the bags on my desk so I could put it away later and today I looked at the bottom (which happened to be facing me) and it reads John 3:16. I looked it up and it says this: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Now, this is from Forever 21. It is not like a christian bookstore or anything like that... so why the hell do they have bible refrences on the bottoms of their bags?

I'm not really sure I want to shop there anymore because of this, I'm not really comfortable with a store trying to preach to me as a customer... I did not go seeking spiritual advice, only a few new items for my closet.

Does anybody else think that this is weird or see where I'm coming from with this?

I'd be pretty annoyed by this. It boils down to saying: If you beleive in the christian god you will go to heaven.
If it had been trying to impart something positive like "do on to others...etc" then i would not mind.

Wow... that's... frightening.

For those of you who don't see anything wrong with this, consider it having a verse from the Koran, Shruti, Book of the Dead, or even something outlandish like the Necronomicon.
what's shruti? i had a computer that had a shruti font once, it looked real neat in the preview font screen but i could never get it to type in anything.

The store who put that on the bottom of their bag WAS preaching. There literally is no other way to interpret it.

That has no place outside of the church. If I found that on a bag I'd go back to the store, give them back their bag and inform them that not only would I never purchase another of their products but I would discourage my friends from shopping there as well.

Last time I counted, I had about 2500 at home at the moment, plus I take out from the library... believe me, I'm in no danger of ever running out of books to read ;)

Woah, that's a lot of books. Ever thought about bookcrossing?

Woah, that's a lot of books. Ever thought about bookcrossing?

What's bookcrossing?

The store who put that on the bottom of their bag WAS preaching. There literally is no other way to interpret it.

That has no place outside of the church. If I found that on a bag I'd go back to the store, give them back their bag and inform them that not only would I never purchase another of their products but I would discourage my friends from shopping there as well. If the bag had an advert for… let's say… Starcraft Ghost on it, surely that only belongs in the games store?

So you're saying that the Bible (and, by extension Christianity) is comparable to a video game...

To answer your question, though... If I see a Starcraft Ghost advertisement they are trying to sell me a product. If I see a Bible verse "reminding" me about Jesus' supposed sacrfice they are trying to sell me a religion. They are trying to tell me how to live.

If you truly believe those two things are the same then I have no idea how to even think on that level.

So you're saying that the Bible (and, by extension Christianity) is comparable to a video game...

To answer your question, though... If I see a Starcraft Ghost advertisement they are trying to sell me a product. If I see a Bible verse "reminding" me about Jesus' supposed sacrfice they are trying to sell me a religion. They are trying to tell me how to live.

If you truly believe those two things are the same then I have no idea how to even think on that level.

well no its the same. Its trying to sell you christianity
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

beleive in him and go to heaven for FREE.
Buy the game and get the expansion product for FREE.

both seem to be trying to drum up business, not simply give a nice message or impart a good moral lesson

well no its the same. Its trying to sell you christianity
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

beleive in him and go to heaven for FREE.
Buy the game and get the expansion product for FREE.

both seem to be trying to drum up business, not simply give a nice message or impart a good moral lesson

I'm weird in that way... I don't think religion should be bought and sold. It also shouldn't be a free gift with every purchase...

well no its the same. Its trying to sell you christianity
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

beleive in him and go to heaven for FREE.
Buy the game and get the expansion product for FREE.

both seem to be trying to drum up business, not simply give a nice message or impart a good moral lesson

Trying to sell me a game is much, much different than trying to sell me a dogma. Surely you can see why I make a distinction...

So you're saying that the Bible (and, by extension Christianity) is comparable to a video game...

To answer your question, though... If I see a Starcraft Ghost advertisement they are trying to sell me a product. If I see a Bible verse "reminding" me about Jesus' supposed sacrfice they are trying to sell me a religion. They are trying to tell me how to live.

If you truly believe those two things are the same then I have no idea how to even think on that level. I wasn't saying they are on the same level, just that the principle was on the same level.
I don't really think it's in good taste, mind. Then again, I'm used to people telling me how to think. :p

I wasn't saying they are on the same level, just that the principle was on the same level.
I don't really think it's in good taste, mind. Then again, I'm used to people telling me how to think. :p

If you don't think they are the same then the analogy is immediately flawed. You are literally making an equal comparison between a product and Christian dogma.

Even you don't think they are the same. hehehe

Anyway, the point is that it shouldn't be on the bag. And I would make absolutely sure that they knew so.

I'm weird in that way... I don't think religion should be bought and sold. It also shouldn't be a free gift with every purchase...

oh i agree. people show choose their faith whatever it be.

just don't like people trying to convert me

Trying to sell me a game is much, much different than trying to sell me a dogma. Surely you can see why I make a distinction...

sorry was not trying to argue with you (unless you think the message "convert or else" is ok).

It's a damned free bag.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

It's a damned free bag.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

only if its bio-dregradable.

if not, BAD CHRISTIANS BAD!!! :mad:

Creepy (even moreso, because they just had the verse name). I wouldn't continue shopping there...

...But, that's just me.

Sure, a model whom sells her body for cash, also know as a __________.
Yes, the female form is beautiful (I should know) but not when it's sold to the desires of men.
Actually, a lot of ads where women are half naked are also targetted towards women. They want to tell us "Buy our product and you can look like this" and models are not selling their bodies for cash, they are selling their time to be in front of a camera.

Never been converted by a muslim huh? You seriously need to get out more. Typically, they're on street corners and you have to try not to make eye contact, once you do... Good luck to ya. Mormons are the worse, they just don't leave you alone. Along with the Jahovah's Witnesses. Atheists are honestly second to the Mormon's I mean after the fifth "There IS NO GOD!" It's kinda like "Yeah, okay, fine, whatever."
I've never had a muslim become beligerant when they found out I don't believe. Mormons aren't so bad, if you run into them they'll try to sell you their religion but at least they're pleasant when you turn them down and I've heard stories of them doing people's yard work without a word of conversion. Jehovah's witnesses are annoying at times, but if you scare them off they don't come back. I've never ever encountered an atheist ringing doorbells or standing on street corners preaching or even complaining that I don't agree, except once when I had an atheist and a christian both yell at me to "choose a side".
At any rate, no, the only religious group who has ever preached at me, yelled at me, condmned me to an eternity of torture et c is christians.

They weren't trying to convert you they were just saying "Jesus loves you." They have a right to do that, just like you have the right to say "You can shove that up your arse." I honestly wouldn't stop shopping at a place because I had to know what type of "filth" they're filling my head with.

But, ya know what obviously you don't feel the same way and if you don't want nice clothes because it had where you can find "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, and whomever shall believe in him will not die but have eternal life." on the bottom on a shopping bag it's your loss.
There are plenty of retailers that don't do that and sell clothes that are just as good, just as cheap et c. So I will take my business elsewhere.

only if its bio-dregradable.

if not, BAD CHRISTIANS BAD!!! :mad:
Nope, it's bright yellow plastic.

Nope, it's bright yellow plastic.

in that case.

NO CHRISTIAN THAT'S A BAD CHRISTIAN!

calm down or grow up, one or both pls :)


Really, Liberating religion a lost concept?

What is love? Friendship? omg you're all such n00bs!
Religion is what an individual makes of it, just as with all things.

We're all such n00bs?...

This is what happens when 12-year olds butt into adult conversations.

Nobody asked you, junior. Run along now.

Jehovah's witnesses are annoying at times, but if you scare them off they don't come back.

I could only imagine what you said to the poor buggers...

"SATAN LIVES HERE!!! Come inside to meet my dog, Mictlantecuhtli!!!"

Why in God's name [ pun intended ] are you so offended? That's what I can't understand. How did this store offend you so? You're reacting way, way out of proportion.
Because I get this sort of thing far too often and I'm tired of it.

I agree that it's bizarre, but what is so offensive about Christianity? I don't see why a Bible reference on the bag is reason to deprive yourself of that store's nice clothes. Are you that anti-religious?
I'm not anti religious, I'm anti-rubbing people's nose in religion.

I could only imagine what you said to the poor buggers...

"SATAN LIVES HERE!!! Come inside to meet my dog, Mictlantecuhtli!!!"
Well, I haven't done that. My dad usually gets the jehovah's witnesses back home and I haven't encountered any when I'm living over here for school.

I did get yelled at one in highschool though. Someone was doing a comparative anatomy presentation and she was saying how apes have opposable big toes and I just tunred to her and said "Wouldn't it be neat to have opposable big toes?" and she yells out, in the middle of this girl's presentation "I don't believe in evolution!" and I'm like "wtf did my question have to do with evolution?"

You're the stereotype of a Christian-phobic leftist that conservatives love to laugh at. You are specifically discriminatory against Christianity because you have no problem with Hinduism, but Christianity is greatly offensive to you. So the absolutism of Christianity is offensive, but the outright classism and racism of Hinduism is not? India's caste system came from Hinduism. In its view, some people are born royalty, and some deserve nothing but a life os slavery. That's worse than any Christian practice.

Hinduism is mostdefinitely a religion where "I am right you are wrong" exists. Maybe you are thinking of Buddhism. And even in that case, there have been Buddhist theocracies, and some of them are quite evangelical and elitist.
Not really. I'm just sick of christianity being shoved in my face all the time. I'm perfectly alright with christians who don't do that, who simply go about their lives and don't try to sell their religion to anyone and everyone even when they express the fact that they are not interested. I've never encountered a hindhu, buddhist, muslim et c who has done this.

And fyi, hindhuism is a tolerant religion, it helps to read a bit about it first... just because people can corrupt a religion and make a theocracy about it does not mean that it is an intolerant religion.

If you have such a bias against Christians that you can't tolerate a simple Biblical reference on the bottom of a bag that will probably hit the trash, then don't shop there. But, ask yourself, would you not patronize a shop that burned incense to honor departed ancestors, or a shop where the clerk wore a kippot, or a crucifix, or a prayer shawl, or how about the shops that print the Star of David or a guiding star during holiday season? It's really just a matter of how tolerant you are of the beliefs of others.
I don't care if someone has personal religious displays in their store, it's when they send them home with me without my knowledge that it gets annoying.

I think there is a difference between expressing personal belief by wearing a cruifix and by using bible verses as advertisement.
I don't have a problem with an employee expressing his or her religion by wearing religious clothes or jewellery, but I do have a problem with an entire company using religion for business reasons. If one person expresses faith, it's just that, an expression. If a whole company does it, it borders on discriminiation.

I would seriously mistrust any company that doesn't respect religion enough to keep it out of business matters.
Thank you.

Store owners have the right to express themselves and to appeal to specific clients. You have to decide if you are tolerant enough to accept differences in others and respect their rights. No one is forcing you to read the scripture reference, much less believe in the Christian religion. If you choose not to shop there even though you like their products, then you're hurting yourself more than anyone else.
And if I bring this to the attention of other potential shoppers who deceide that they don't want that sort of thing, then eventually I end up hurting them as well. Furthermore, as I have said repetedly, this chain does not exist in Canada, I would only shop there once or twice a year anyways. It doesn't really affect me, it just means that I go to the store next to it instead.

Exactly. I hardly think the shopkeeper "heaped" his views on anyone. A tiny, discreet reference was made on the bottom of a sack that is thrown away. If Dakini hadn't purposely looked up the scripture, he/she would have had no idea what it said or the reference made. It is also Dakini's ignorance and possibly prejudice that made him misunderstand the message imparted in that scripture. Rather than a message of intolerance, it is a message of hope and love. The shopkeeper was in a small way sharing good thoughts and wishes to his customers.
Excuse me, but when I was a christian, this was the thing that they kept telling us when they would start with the guilt trip. This was what they used to turn down the possibility of any other path being the correct one.

But you know, I must be an ignorant buffoon, as you have so written me off.

Here's my issue:

Why do all these people think it's up to *them* to give *me* hope?

And who invited them to "share" anything with me? I'm there to buy something. I have no interest in them beyond that one transaction, and I don't invite them to take an interest in me.

I like blank shopping bags. If they insist, they can advertise the store on it. If they really insist, they can put "Thank you. Come again." on it. Beyond that, they can shut up.