NationStates Jolt Archive

Is anybody else sickened and ashamed by this story? Is it O.K. to just "give up" when things get too hard? If you can't deal with your job, shouldn't you find that out BEFORE people really need you?

ARTICLE (http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/04/news/cops.php)


Hurricane takes its toll on the lives of the frustrated police
By Joseph B. Treaster The New York Times

MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 5, 2005


NEW ORLEANS Reeling from the chaos of this overwhelmed city, at least 200 New Orleans police officers have walked away from their jobs, and two have committed suicide, according to police officials.

Some officers officially told their superiors they were leaving, police officials said Saturday. Others worked for a while and then stopped showing up. Still others, for reasons that are not always clear, never made it in after the storm.

The absences come during a period of extraordinary stress for the New Orleans Police Department. For nearly a week, many of its 1,500 members have had to work round the clock, trying to cope with flooding, an overwhelming crush of refugees, looters and occasional snipers.

New Orleans police lose hundreds to cowardice
??? fustration, maybe, but Cowardice?
Sad blight on the NOPD


*waits for first poster to blame this on Bush*

Bush did it.

Bush did it. :eek: wow.... that was fast...

I read a story about one officer who worked 60 hours straight, then drove off to another state. It brings to mind the writings of Antoine de Saint-Exupery on the behaviour of defeated armies. What a man does when the authority he served ceases to exist.

Is anybody else sickened and ashamed by this story? Is it O.K. to just "give up" when things get too hard? If you can't deal with your job, shouldn't you find that out BEFORE people really need you?

why don't you go and do what there doing before you start going on at how the pansy coppers are committing suicide :mad:

Deplorable though it is, it is understandable

why don't you go and do what there doing before you start going on at how the pansy coppers are committing suicide :mad:
All I'm saying is that when the going gets tough, you step up and do your job. Suicide is selfish, and cowardly. So is leaving your job because its "too hard". Do you think the victims think its ok to abandom them because its "too hard" BULLSHIT. They better lose their pensions over this shit!

*waits for first poster to blame this on Bush*
Huh? I like Bush. Not everyone here is Anti-Bush.

Suicide is selfish, and cowardly.
You know, maybe they found their families dead in the wreckage of their homes. I mean, you use a car for work, city gets flattened, what's one of the first places you go and check out? :mad:

All I'm saying is that when the going gets tough, you step up and do your job. Suicide is selfish, and cowardly. So is leaving your job because its "too hard". Do you think the victims think its ok to abandom them because its "too hard" BULLSHIT. They better lose their pensions over this shit!

but you would never expect to have to deal with dead bodies that have been left in the sun or people dying in front of you with nothing you can do about it

Huh? I like Bush. Not everyone here is Anti-Bush.whoops, I meant I was waiting for the first POST to appear that will blame Bush... not that you as the First Poster will blame him. Sorry. :p

All I'm saying is that when the going gets tough, you step up and do your job. Suicide is selfish, and cowardly. So is leaving your job because its "too hard". Do you think the victims think its ok to abandom them because its "too hard" BULLSHIT. They better lose their pensions over this shit!
When you've been out there doing their job for as long as they have, when you've experienced what they've experienced, then you have the right to call them cowards. But as long as you're sitting behind that keyboard doing onthing more than talking shit, you don't have that right, and I'll thank you to recognize that quickly. This is nothing more than another troll thread, blaming the victims. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE!
When you have hundreds of thousands of people counting on you to save them, serve and protect them, and you just quit because its too hard, you are a coward! Plain and simple. If i found my wife dead, I would ball my eyes out, then I would go help people, because I know thats what she would want me to do!

THERE IS NO EXCUSE!
Well, shucks. I guess some people just couldn't cut it. But it's OK, they're dead now. :rolleyes:

When you've been out there doing their job for as long as they have, when you've experienced what they've experienced, then you have the right to call them cowards. But as long as you're sitting behind that keyboard doing onthing more than talking shit, you don't have that right, and I'll thank you to recognize that quickly. This is nothing more than another troll thread, blaming the victims. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
I didn't blame the victims. I blamed the people who swore to protect their citizens, and then cut and run! I won't apologize for that. You know who should be ashamed? The cowards who rushed out of New Orleans when everyone else was rushing in!

BTW though I think suicide is selfish, I'm calling the "quitters" the cowards, not the dead.

Ask the New York police and firefighters what is like to be a hero, ask them if they wanted to quit when they were pulling body parts out of rubble. Ask them if quitting is O.K. How many of THEM worked 40,50,60 hours straight to try to save people.

I didn't blame the victims. I blamed the people who swore to protect their citizens, and then cut and run! I won't apologize for that. You know who should be ashamed? The cowards who rushed out of New Orleans when everyone else was rushing in!

BTW though I think suicide is selfish, I'm calling the "quitters" the cowards, not the dead.

but aren’t you a coward for sitting there typing instead of volunteering and having bake sales to raise funds

Ask the New York police and firefighters what is like to be a hero, ask them if they wanted to quit when they were pulling body parts out of rubble. Ask them if quitting is O.K. How many of THEM worked 40,50,60 hours straight to try to save people.remember tho, the NYPD and NYFD also had help from other PD and FD. also the Community was also helping them at the same time.

NYPD and NYFD were not the only ones pulling bodies out of the rubble, the citizens were also helping. Ground Zero had volunteers pouring in from all over.

but aren’t you a coward for sitting there typing instead of volunteering and having bake sales to raise funds

I think his point is that they actually vowed to protect and serve the citizens, upholding the law, yet they broke that vow. He didn't make such a vow, so there was nothing to call him a coward in that respect.

Ask the New York police and firefighters what is like to be a hero, ask them if they wanted to quit when they were pulling body parts out of rubble. Ask them if quitting is O.K. How many of THEM worked 40,50,60 hours straight to try to save people.
You just don't get it, do you? That was a couple of city blocks. These guys, after several days, saw the evidence of their state government's destruction. It's a different psychology entirely.

but aren’t you a coward for sitting there typing instead of volunteering and having bake sales to raise funds

You know, I've been thinking about going down to New Orleans and volunteering. I ownder if that thought has even crossed the original poster's mind?

I didn't blame the victims. I blamed the people who swore to protect their citizens, and then cut and run! I won't apologize for that. You know who should be ashamed? The cowards who rushed out of New Orleans when everyone else was rushing in!

BTW though I think suicide is selfish, I'm calling the "quitters" the cowards, not the dead.
A cop on the beat in New Orleans is as much a victim as anyone else. The fact that they're cops doesn't change the fact that they're probably mssing family members, that their houses have been flooded or knocked down or looted or that they've lost everything they've ever known. They've been working under incredible stress and a few of them haven't been able to handle it--they're human. Your reaction to their human frailty, however, seems inhuman to me.

I say it again--this is a trolling thread and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

I think his point is that they actually vowed to protect and serve the citizens, upholding the law, yet they broke that vow. He didn't make such a vow, so there was nothing to call him a coward in that respect.
Pretty much what I was gonna say. And if I had the money, I'd drive down there right now and help, but I barely covered my rent this month. Call me a coward all you want people. Won't change my opinion of the cowards in that article.

All I'm saying is that when the going gets tough, you step up and do your job. Suicide is selfish, and cowardly. So is leaving your job because its "too hard". Do you think the victims think its ok to abandom them because its "too hard" BULLSHIT. They better lose their pensions over this shit!


YOu are a selfish twit! You have no idea what those officers are going through. Youre so brave, youre so smart go volunteer and do it with no sleep and having your own home destroyed and your whole way of life gone! What a piece of work you are! You have no idea what you are talking about!!! They are overwhelmed and cant do it alone! Thank God they are now getting the help they need. Walk a mile in their shoes before you accuse! :gundge:

Ask the New York police and firefighters what is like to be a hero, ask them if they wanted to quit when they were pulling body parts out of rubble. Ask them if quitting is O.K. How many of THEM worked 40,50,60 hours straight to try to save people.

there were allot of people who ran away from there jobs there as well it's just that know one wanted to poke fun of them after what they went though much like the everyone is about the current disaster

YOu are a selfish twit! You have no idea what those officers are going through. Youre so brave, youre so smart go volunteer and do it with no sleep and having your own home destroyed and your whole way of life gone! What a piece of work you are! You have no idea what you are talking about!!! They are overwhelmed and cant do it alone! Thank God they are now getting the help they need. Walk a mile in their shoes before you accuse! :gundge:
Sorry, but quitting when things get tough is an act of cowardous. You aren't gonna change my mind by attacking MY character. Especially since you don't even know who I am or what I've done. Cute Emoticon though :gundge:

YOu are a selfish twit! You have no idea what those officers are going through. Youre so brave, youre so smart go volunteer and do it with no sleep and having your own home destroyed and your whole way of life gone! What a piece of work you are! You have no idea what you are talking about!!! They are overwhelmed and cant do it alone! Thank God they are now getting the help they need. Walk a mile in their shoes before you accuse! :gundge:
Careful with the name-calling. You can make your point without it.

All I know is that when you vow to do a job, you dont vow to do it, "as long as it's easy" Imagine if EVERYONE quit when things got tough. What a world that would be.

Imagine if EVERYONE quit when things got tough. What a world that would be.
Well, if you have no home and no place of work, the authority for which you worked ceased to exist, and hanging around meant risking death, there really wouldn't be much point, would there?

THERE IS NO EXCUSE!
When you have hundreds of thousands of people counting on you to save them, serve and protect them, and you just quit because its too hard, you are a coward! Plain and simple. If i found my wife dead, I would ball my eyes out, then I would go help people, because I know thats what she would want me to do!
:(

But then you find someone else's wife, and their kid, and another whole family, then another kid, then a Father, then a mother, then a daughter and son, then another son, then a grandmother, then a pet, then another mother, a baby, a grandfather, all dead, more and more dead, DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD EVERYWHERE, TRAPPED IN THE CITY OF THE DEAD DROWNING IN A SEA OF DEATH CAN YOU BLAME THEM FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!! HOW CAN YOU SIT THERE AND BLAME THEM FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO FACE IT ALL! THEY ARE HUMAN, AND HUMANS HAVE FEELINGS! AND THEY'VE LOST EVERYTHING!!! CAN YOU EVEN UNDERSTAND THEIR DESPAIR??

:(

But then you find someone else's wife, and their kid, and another whole family, then another kid, then a Father, then a mother, then a daughter and son, then another son, then a grandmother, then a pet, then another mother, a baby, a grandfather, all dead, more and more dead, DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD EVERYWHERE, TRAPPED IN THE CITY OF THE DEAD DROWNING IN A SEA OF DEATH CAN YOU BLAME THEM FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!! HOW CAN YOU SIT THERE AND BLAME THEM FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO FACE IT ALL! THEY ARE HUMAN, AND HUMANS HAVE FEELINGS! AND THEY'VE LOST EVERYTHING!!! CAN YOU EVEN UNDERSTAND THEIR DESPAIR??
The obvious answer to that question is no, he can't. And more's the pity.

really though if your worrying about your wife and kids getting murdered/raped you can't blame them for breaking down and helping there families

I would also like to point out they have gone above and beyond what is expected of them

You know, I've been thinking about going down to New Orleans and volunteering. I ownder if that thought has even crossed the original poster's mind?

if your talking about me well I'm a 15 year old with no job living in England I don't think I will be able to get to New Orleans

But I would help if I could

:(

But then you find someone else's wife, and their kid, and another whole family, then another kid, then a Father, then a mother, then a daughter and son, then another son, then a grandmother, then a pet, then another mother, a baby, a grandfather, all dead, more and more dead, DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD EVERYWHERE, TRAPPED IN THE CITY OF THE DEAD DROWNING IN A SEA OF DEATH CAN YOU BLAME THEM FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!! HOW CAN YOU SIT THERE AND BLAME THEM FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO FACE IT ALL! THEY ARE HUMAN, AND HUMANS HAVE FEELINGS! AND THEY'VE LOST EVERYTHING!!! CAN YOU EVEN UNDERSTAND THEIR DESPAIR??
YOU DON"T HAVE TO YELL! I'M RIGHT HERE!
So when It gets like that, EVERYONE should just quit? Give up? Go away? What, just leave it? I don't think truckers, receptionists, burger flippers, or waitress's should go in there, but cops made an oath to serve and protect, and they broke it! Hundreds of them broke it. If we can't count on them in times of need, then who do we count on?

YOU DON"T HAVE TO YELL! I'M RIGHT HERE!
So when It gets like that, EVERYONE should just quit? Give up? Go away? What, just leave it? I don't think truckers, receptionists, burger flippers, or waitress's should go in there, but cops made an oath to serve and protect, and they broke it! Hundreds of them broke it. If we can't count on them in times of need, then who do we count on?

the miletery (which is already there)

What could the cops do?
They could organize the citizens. keep calm and try to restore some semblance of order. you know... their JOB.

if they were successful?
1) then the shooting at rescue vehcles wouldn't have happened.
2) Gangs would be scavenging for food and other necesities.
3) order would be restored and perhaps areas that have been delcared "to violent' for volunteer organizations to enter, would be nonexsistant.

With the lack of Authority in the city/state, they will become the authority. As long as there is one citizen stuck there, they have a responsibility to that citizen.

How can people here exscuse the Cops for not doing their job but still blame the President for not doing his.

The cops are suppose to protect and serve the community, but the community also has to support their officers.

YOU DON"T HAVE TO YELL! I'M RIGHT HERE!
So when It gets like that, EVERYONE should just quit? Give up? Go away? What, just leave it? I don't think truckers, receptionists, burger flippers, or waitress's should go in there, but cops made an oath to serve and protect, and they broke it! Hundreds of them broke it. If we can't count on them in times of need, then who do we count on?
I've said it before, and you never answered me satisfactorily, so I'll say it again--when you're a cop, and when you've experienced what these cops have experienced, then you have the moral high ground to call them quitters or cowards or whatever the hell you want to. Until then, you have no right.

Do you understand me? You have no right.

That's what virtually everyone on this thread is telling you.

You have no right.

Stop trying to defend it.

You have no right.

Now back the hell off of these men.

the miletery (which is already there)
The military certainly is doing a great job, but what about before they showed up? I'm not saying that they needed to patrol through the water with a smile on their face, but they could have organized partys to find food and water, they could have helped calm people down, they could have just stayed with their citizens and protect them. Instaed, they left. They just left them all to die. :(

To read that makes the NOPD look bad, but I will not pass judgement on them since I have no way to understand the working conditions that they have been in. To see the pictures on TV shows horrific scenes that I'm sure don't even begin to tell the whole story. These police officers have families to take care of too. Who knows how many might be single parents, have other family members that rely on them for help, or any number of other problems.

YOU DON"T HAVE TO YELL! I'M RIGHT HERE!
So when It gets like that, EVERYONE should just quit? Give up? Go away? What, just leave it? I don't think truckers, receptionists, burger flippers, or waitress's should go in there, but cops made an oath to serve and protect, and they broke it! Hundreds of them broke it. If we can't count on them in times of need, then who do we count on?

How can a Cop 'Serve and Protect' when they can't protect their own Sanity. It's better that they leave then going nuts and killing themselves or making a mistake or shooting the wrong person. But NOOOO doesn't matter how they feel, You Don't give a Damn about those Cops!!! YOU JUST THINK 'THEY MUST SERVE AND PROTECT, DAMN THEIR FEELINGS, WHO CARES ABOUT THEM!" You make me sick.

When you are a Officer of the Law you are held to a different standard...what they did was pathetic...you left your brothers in arms in a more dangerous position then they where already in, you disguist me.

Then again, NOPD are some of the worst cops in the United States...

I've said it before, and you never answered me satisfactorily, so I'll say it again--when you're a cop, and when you've experienced what these cops have experienced, then you have the moral high ground to call them quitters or cowards or whatever the hell you want to. Until then, you have no right.

Do you understand me? You have no right.

That's what virtually everyone on this thread is telling you.

You have no right.

Stop trying to defend it.

You have no right.

Now back the hell off of these men. I don't understand how you can tell me not to judge, because I haven't been there, but then you judge me, and you don't even know where I HAVE been, or even who I am. Kinda funny. No one should judge people they don't know. Except you?

Bear in mind that the police stations got destroyed, along with the radio transmitters. There's nowhere to fill up their patrol cars. Their walkie-talkie batteries would be flat within a couple of days, with no way to recharge them. Thus, no communication except face-to-face. Thus, no way of coordinating activity within even a city block. The local prison inmates would need to be taken care of. They had not been evacuated in the initial phases, and I have seen helicopter footage of them sitting in their orange jumpsuits on the prison roof.

Add to this the unhappy state of their families god knows where, and the absence of any supervising authority, and they are basically "soldiers with no soldiering to do".

I don't understand how you can tell me not to judge, because I haven't been there, but then you judge me, and you don't even know where I HAVE been, or even who I am. Kinda funny.
You put yourself in a position to be judged the second you made those asinine remarks and then continued to defend them. You are not a cop in that situation, you obviously have no clue as to what they're going through, and yet you sit behind your little keyboard and dare to call them cowards and quitters.

It's taking every ounce of self-control I have not to flame you to hell and back, but I'm going to hold out and say it again, as many times as I have to, you have no right to judge these men. None.

When you are a Officer of the Law you are held to a different standard...what they did was pathetic...you left your brothers in arms in a more dangerous position then they where already in, you disguist me.

Then again, NOPD are some of the worst cops in the United States...


More words of wisdom to live by!! YOU ARE NOT THERE- quit your bitchin! You have nothing to complain about! Do you know the implications of sleep deprivation it can lead to insanity and certainly to depression!! Think before you judge others ((les you be judged!))

I wonder - you make a vow to serve and protect the citizens a county/city/state. One day you wake up, you kiss your wife on the cheek and you ruffle the hair on your childrens head and you head off to work to do your sworn duty. Then you hear the storm warning - a hurricane is bearing down on your little slice of paradise. Hurricanes have hit before though right? Damage will be done - but nothing you cant handle. Except oh goodness no - next thing you realise half your city is underwater because you happened to live so conveniently below sea level. Whats left of the city you once loved so dearly is nothing more than a bog ridden with dead bodies and houses turned into rubble. You leave your work immediately and race home to find your house - your own little kingdom - destroyed. You dig frantically through the rubble trying to find something, anything that tells you if your family is alive. Until some of your neighbours pull you out of the rubble to keep you alive - somehow they surivived by hiding in the cellar, something they say - that your family never had the chance to do. You'd bury your wife and children but..thats right you have to go fulfill your duty. So you go back. You walk the streets where those you have sworn to protect have turned savage and taken over. Surivival of the fittest now - at its finest. So now its you and a handful of exhausted grief stricken officers against the might of the hungry, the beaten, the desperate. Stop them from looting stores and homes? you have to be kidding. Men and women that are better armed than you are? and whats the point of shooting ot kill? so many others are dead. Does it really matter? sacrifice your own life to save others from being raped? Yeah that makes more sense. Except that you only get to do it once mate.

You cant blame these officers for giving in - they've seen more hell than you can ever imagine! and you have the balls to say they're cowards for running? Thats impressive mate - what i want to know is where are your other states in all this? The aid that should be being rushed to them - where is it? Why has it taken this long and we are only just getting consular officials from other countries into the city? I'm not blaming bush but i think some of his priorities may be slightly misconstrued. What's he going to do now? wage war on dangerous weather? and all countries who dare harbour it?

I think maybe a bit more support all around might do the trick and then you wont have these "gutless" officers abandoning their posts or having the "nerve" to commit suicide.

Bear in mind that the police stations got destroyed, along with the radio transmitters. There's nowhere to fill up their patrol cars. Their walkie-talkie batteries would be flat within a couple of days, with no way to recharge them. Thus, no communication except face-to-face. Thus, no way of coordinating activity within even a city block. The local prison inmates would need to be taken care of. They had not been evacuated in the initial phases, and I have seen helicopter footage of them sitting in their orange jumpsuits on the prison roof.

Add to this the unhappy state of their families god knows where, and the absence of any supervising authority, and they are basically "soldiers with no soldiering to do".which is where initiative takes place. all you need is to set up a command center. anywhere. get the cops together before their radio batteries run down and start gathering the civilians together.

start searching the rubble for canned food, start boiling water (got firewood) and most importantly, keep the people busy. idle people will turn into gangs and all kinds of trouble start.

Loot the stores for anything useful, and everything gets shared. You'll be surprise what the Illusion of order can do. send people down to the rivers/ocean and fish, make them feel useful and you'll see that what was once fustrating and hopeless will turn into a bearable situation.

as for communications, when that starts to fail, use runners, messengers. improvise.

All I'm saying is that when the going gets tough, you step up and do your job. Suicide is selfish, and cowardly. So is leaving your job because its "too hard". Do you think the victims think its ok to abandom them because its "too hard" BULLSHIT. They better lose their pensions over this shit!


I should come to mcdonalds and start shooting at you while you're flipping burgers. Don't stop flipping those burgers son. Remember, it's your job to get shot at by every customer that walks through the door.

All I'm saying is that when the going gets tough, you step up and do your job. Suicide is selfish, and cowardly. So is leaving your job because its "too hard". Do you think the victims think its ok to abandom them because its "too hard" BULLSHIT. They better lose their pensions over this shit!
You sound like you're trying to position yourself as some sort of authority regarding suicide. May I ask what you feel gives you greater insight than say... someone who's just letting their tongue do the talking for them?

You put yourself in a position to be judged the second you made those asinine remarks and then continued to defend them. You are not a cop in that situation, you obviously have no clue as to what they're going through, and yet you sit behind your little keyboard and dare to call them cowards and quitters.

It's taking every ounce of self-control I have not to flame you to hell and back, but I'm going to hold out and say it again, as many times as I have to, you have no right to judge these men. None.
First of all. My keyboard is not little. Its average. Second, say what you want, but what do you say to all the other police that didn't abandom their posts? Do you tell them it was o.k. that their brothers and sisters in arms abandoned them? do you tell them that even though they are going through HELL to help people, its ok that others just gave up? Man, I'm glad I don't work with you.

I should come to mcdonalds and start shooting at you while you're flipping burgers. Don't stop flipping those burgers son. Remember, it's your job to get shot at by every customer that walks through the door.
Well as Sonic said they have 'higher standards' That means those bullets are supposed to bounce off them since they have superhuman abilities. I agree Datopp lets see Sick Dreams do his job while everything's falling to hell.

How can a Cop 'Serve and Protect' when they can't protect their own Sanity. It's better that they leave then going nuts and killing themselves or making a mistake or shooting the wrong person. But NOOOO doesn't matter how they feel, You Don't give a Damn about those Cops!!! YOU JUST THINK 'THEY MUST SERVE AND PROTECT, DAMN THEIR FEELINGS, WHO CARES ABOUT THEM!" You make me sick.what about the people who depend on the cops for order. for protection. for assistance, don't their feelings and their situation also count? The officers swore a duty and they left those people sitting wet and without leadership. are the cops still blameless for neglect? What about the other cops who's burden, strain and fustration are doubled everytime another cop walks away or kills themself. don't their feelings count too?

I should come to mcdonalds and start shooting at you while you're flipping burgers. Don't stop flipping those burgers son. Remember, it's your job to get shot at by every customer that walks through the door.
WOW. First) I don't work at Mcdonalds. Second) WHAT?!?!

which is where initiative takes place. all you need is to set up a command center. anywhere. get the cops together before their radio batteries run down and start gathering the civilians together.

start searching the rubble for canned food, start boiling water (got firewood) and most importantly, keep the people busy. idle people will turn into gangs and all kinds of trouble start.

Loot the stores for anything useful, and everything gets shared. You'll be surprise what the Illusion of order can do. send people down to the rivers/ocean and fish, make them feel useful and you'll see that what was once fustrating and hopeless will turn into a bearable situation.

as for communications, when that starts to fail, use runners, messengers. improvise.


that might be a bit hard considering the people you are dealing with hate the police, have gangs roaming round with guns on nearly every block and the police officers that are still alive have just lost everything also this is New Orleans there is no community spirit!

You sound like you're trying to position yourself as some sort of authority regarding suicide. May I ask what you feel gives you greater insight than say... someone who's just letting their tongue do the talking for them?
I most certainly DID NOT claim to be an expert on suicide. All I did was state MY opinion of it. And actually, the whole suicide thing isn't really part of my argument. My arguments are the ones who are still alive, safe, and cowards.

I should come to mcdonalds and start shooting at you while you're flipping burgers. Don't stop flipping those burgers son. Remember, it's your job to get shot at by every customer that walks through the door.it's not a McDonald's employee's job to be shot at. Nor is it not the McDonald's employee to handle violent situations.
But it is the job of the officer to keep order.
How would you like it if you were being mugged by someone and the cop looks in, then walks on because "stopping the mugger is too Dangerous" or "solving the murder of your Family member is impossible because I'm to fustrated by the case so I'm walking."

bet you would be sending in your lawyers after that cop as soon as those words left the their lips.

Jeese I love it when these "Sick Bastards" Cry about how the Cops are not Serving and Protecting "Us" "Them" "Whomever" at a time of enormous duress(for the Civis) then when the time is right they turn the other cheek and bitch about how the Cops don't have the right to kill the "coked up" gunman who just fired off a round or ten at the them.
And if there ever was LEGAL Drugs in this country you guys would CONTINUE to bitch that the Government wasn't fast enough to get your stash of "whatever" to your local flooded drug store,which would then incite riots and looting cause (now they have an excuse) they were comming off their high and were becomming antsy.



They are as human as you and me. Can you do any better, if So get to it then!

After 911 I thought we'd all come togehter but it hasn't happened yet, and unfortunatly America never will, till it's WAY TOO LATE.

Rich

what about the people who depend on the cops for order. for protection. for assistance, don't their feelings and their situation also count? The officers swore a duty and they left those people sitting wet and without leadership. are the cops still blameless for neglect? What about the other cops who's burden, strain and fustration are doubled everytime another cop walks away or kills themself. don't their feelings count too?
You forget they also were sitting wet and without leadership.
All people have breaking points, I can't fault the cops for reaching it. It's not their fault that they have feelings, that they have the ability to suffer, they are human just like the rest of us. And you have no right to Judge them.

Sorry, JuNii and Sick Dreams have lost this Debate.

what about the people who depend on the cops for order. for protection. for assistance, don't their feelings and their situation also count? The officers swore a duty and they left those people sitting wet and without leadership. are the cops still blameless for neglect? What about the other cops who's burden, strain and fustration are doubled everytime another cop walks away or kills themself. don't their feelings count too?

they are just the same as any person there do you think there training on how to talk down a murderer is going to help? and to top it all off in New Orleans the one thing that is separating them from the regular Joe (the uniform) makes them more likely to get shot/beaten up

that might be a bit hard considering the people you are dealing with hate the police, have gangs roaming round with guns on nearly every block and the police officers that are still alive have just lost everything also this is New Orleans there is no community spirit!hard, yes. Difficult, of course, Impossible... Nope. If the Cops worked together, then they can get the community together.

If the cops assumed that they had to do everything, then that is the fault of their training. However, they do have a duty to their job and to the citizens. them leaving puts more burden on the remaining cops as well as the citizens. that's where the gangs are coming from.

Granted I don't know Jack about New Orleans, but I Have a feeling if a couple of street musicians started playing, you'll have several people dancing.
If you have some people who, at least Look like they know what to do, you'll have people listening to them. Put an Officer's uniform on that person and even more would listen. but they (the cops) did let things degenerate too far too long.

Jeese I love it when these "Sick Bastards" Cry about how the Cops are not Serving and Protecting "Us" "Them" "Whomever" at a time of enormous duress(for the Civis) then when the time is right they turn the other cheek and bitch about how the Cops don't have the right to kill the "coked up" gunman who just fired off a round or ten at the them.
And if there ever was LEGAL Drugs in this country you guys would CONTINUE to bitch that the Government wasn't fast enough to get your stash of "whatever" to your local flooded drug store,which would then incite riots and looting cause (now they have an excuse) they were comming off their high and were becomming antsy.



They are as human as you and me. Can you do any better, if So get to it then!

After 911 I thought we'd all come togehter but it hasn't happened yet, and unfortunatly America never will, till it's WAY TOO LATE.

Rich
UUHHMMMM The cops DO have the "the right to kill the "coked up" gunman who just fired off a round or ten at the them" Where the hell did you get the notion I thought that? WOW

~edit~ And when the hell did leaglizing drugs get into this argument? And what do you mean by "you guys"?

You forget one things guys - this goes out to sick dreams and co. What about the cops who have been killed since the riots and looting started? i mean suicides yeah - cops walking away from their jobs yeah alright fair enough - but you can be that cops are being killed or wounded or threatened. The people they're supposed to protect? They dont want protection. In fact - as far as they're concerned - they're the newest power in town. Try staring down the barrel of that particular gun and see where it gets you. :p

You forget one things guys - this goes out to sick dreams and co. What about the cops who have been killed since the riots and looting started? i mean suicides yeah - cops walking away from their jobs yeah alright fair enough - but you can be that cops are being killed or wounded or threatened. The people they're supposed to protect? They dont want protection. In fact - as far as they're concerned - they're the newest power in town. Try staring down the barrel of that particular gun and see where it gets you. :p
Wrong. SOME people are shooting at cops. SOME people think they are the new power in town. And its the cops duty to protect EVERYONE else from them!

You forget they also were sitting wet and without leadership.
All people have breaking points, I can't fault the cops for reaching it. It's not their fault that they have feelings, that they have the ability to suffer, they are human just like the rest of us. And you have no right to Judge them.

Sorry, JuNii and Sick Dreams have lost this Debate.

News Reporter: "Sir, I'm sure all of the nation is glad that you were eventually rescued after weeks of being left stranded atop of your roof."

Survivor: "Yes. I'm thankful that the military were there to rescue us."

News Reporter: "So that's to say that no one has attempted to rescue you earlier?"

Survivor: "Oh, no, I was spotted the first week by police."

Reporter: "What? So why didn't they rescue you?"

Survivor: "Well, they saw me it seems, but they had fear in their faces as they passed by. They went to save themselves. But, hey, they're human. I can forgive them for leaving me for dead. In fact, I thank them for giving me that speeding ticket not but a few days before the storm. They were at least doing their job then."

-------

Yeah. I'm sure the cops deserve compassion. After all, their real job is distributing tickets for people going five over the limit...

You forget they also were sitting wet and without leadership.
All people have breaking points, I can't fault the cops for reaching it. It's not their fault that they have feelings, that they have the ability to suffer, they are human just like the rest of us. And you have no right to Judge them.

Sorry, JuNii and Sick Dreams have lost this Debate.Not judging them for having a breaking point. but they did take the oath to do a job. so I'm juding them for abandoning their job.

How would you like the doctor doing your operation to stop in the middle and leave because it's too hard?

How would you like the firefighters to stop because the blaze consuming your home is too hot?

How would you like the judge and lawyers to throw out your case because it's easier to just judge you guity and get on with life?

We all have breaking points but to let the people who are counting on you down because of fustration, is just not right.

and isn't there some ruling about debates that the one who declares themselves the winners actually lose? :D

hard, yes. Difficult, of course, Impossible... Nope. If the Cops worked together, then they can get the community together.

If the cops assumed that they had to do everything, then that is the fault of their training. However, they do have a duty to their job and to the citizens. them leaving puts more burden on the remaining cops as well as the citizens. that's where the gangs are coming from.

Granted I don't know Jack about New Orleans, but I Have a feeling if a couple of street musicians started playing, you'll have several people dancing.
If you have some people who, at least Look like they know what to do, you'll have people listening to them. Put an Officer's uniform on that person and even more would listen. but they (the cops) did let things degenerate too far too long.

so your saying a few cops in battered cloths could police the whole of New Orleans I think you need to remember

1) they have to stick to the law

2) poor black Americans and the police force aren’t even on uneasy terms

3) there isn't possibly enough police numbers (even if there hadn't been a hurricane) to stop every person in the city descending into anarchy

I'm going to set a little Scene.

New Orleans
Leader: Alright people get back to work!
Cop: Sir it's been 6 days I can't take much more, my Families dead my house is gone Give me a break!
Leader: NO Get back to your job.
Citizen: Hey Cop! When's the next bus?
Cop: I don't know you stay where you're supposed to be.
Citizen2: But we're sick and tired we need to get out of here!
Cop: Don't we all but stay where you are supposed to be.
Citizen3: But Sir...
Cop: *snaps* *BANG* *BANG* *BANG* AHH! *BANG* *collapse*

And by the way, 200 cowards may have quit, but there are over a 1000 heros who stayed, so you can't say I'm talking against police. The cowards were never really cops to begin with. They just dressed like them and stole tax payer money.

All I'm saying is that when the going gets tough, you step up and do your job. Suicide is selfish, and cowardly. So is leaving your job because its "too hard". Do you think the victims think its ok to abandom them because its "too hard" BULLSHIT. They better lose their pensions over this shit!

Considering the extent of the damage, it's quite likely that they've already lost their *homes.* They may have lost colleagues' lives in the flooding. They seem to be in danger of losing their own lives while they are trying to help, to the *very people* they're trying to help, because some of those people don't want to be interrupted in their looting.
While it's entirely understandable to desire superhuman stamina and mental resiliency in those who volunteer so serve and protect us for a living. But the magnitude of the situation they're enduring is beyond the imagining of anyone not sharing it. They not only have to live through the same devastation as everyone else in New Orleans, they're expected to set their own experience of it aside to serve everyone else around them. And many of those people they're expected to serve are growing hostile towards them, even physically threatening towards them.
How can you judge these people who've already seen as much as they have, when *anyone* could and likely would be utterly overwhelmed by what they're going through?

Those police officers who continue to come in to work should get a medal. Those who can't deal with it should get our understanding and compassion, not punished for being only human.

I most certainly DID NOT claim to be an expert on suicide. All I did was state MY opinion of it. And actually, the whole suicide thing isn't really part of my argument. My arguments are the ones who are still alive, safe, and cowards.
So you'd feel better about things if they were all dead, unsafe and manly? What? :confused:

You forget one things guys - this goes out to sick dreams and co. What about the cops who have been killed since the riots and looting started? i mean suicides yeah - cops walking away from their jobs yeah alright fair enough - but you can be that cops are being killed or wounded or threatened. The people they're supposed to protect? They dont want protection. In fact - as far as they're concerned - they're the newest power in town. Try staring down the barrel of that particular gun and see where it gets you. :pIf I was a cop, I wouldn't be staring down the barrell of the gun. In that situation, anyone not a cop who is drawing a gun on me is going to be shot by me. as you said, cops being shot by gangs, then the gangs will be shot until they get their act together. Protection of the Comunity and Citizens come first. so if the gangs wanna try and take over, I will do what I can to restore Order. Even if I end up dead, I will have at least died doing what I swore to do.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE!
When you have hundreds of thousands of people counting on you to save them, serve and protect them, and you just quit because its too hard, you are a coward! Plain and simple. If i found my wife dead, I would ball my eyes out, then I would go help people, because I know thats what she would want me to do!

How many of you, sitting in the comfort of your homes, with your family, loved ones, and luxuries like a personal computer and internet access, are heading to New Orleans to help out for a week straight without concern for your own well-being?

How many of you, who are passing judgment, are in New Orleans right now trying to make people safer and more secure?

How many of you are willing to go down there and see the dead bodies piling up?

....

....

....

*crickets*

Until you grow a pair and stop being armchair psychologists telling the forces there how "selfish" they are by not working themselves to death, STFU.

Put your money where your mouth is, if you think they're not doing their jobs.

I'm going to set a little Scene.

New Orleans
Leader: Alright people get back to work!
Cop: Sir it's been 6 days I can't take much more, my Families dead my house is gone Give me a break!
Leader: NO Get back to your job.
Citizen: Hey Cop! When's the next bus?
Cop: I don't know you stay where you're supposed to be.
Citizen2: But we're sick and tired we need to get out of here!
Cop: Don't we all but stay where you are supposed to be.
Citizen3: But Sir...
Cop: *snaps* *BANG* *BANG* *BANG* AHH! *BANG* *collapse*
I don't even know where to begin. Cute.

Loot the stores for anything useful, and everything gets shared. You'll be surprise what the Illusion of order can do. send people down to the rivers/ocean and fish, make them feel useful and you'll see that what was once fustrating and hopeless will turn into a bearable situation.
In the first days, there were reports that police were breaking windows for the 'looters', to make sure people did not cut themselves on the glass. So they were indeed making themselves useful there. Trouble is, after a few days without food and water, with the locals increasingly likely to shoot at you, you have to wonder at what point you cut your losses. After 5 days or so, many may have simply decided there was no longer any authority to serve. And I can't blame them. It's like an army retreating leaderless and in disarray after a defeat. Chaos takes over.

some of this I think is the fault of the mayor. A leader, even if he knows the situation is seriously bad, must try to instill confidence in the people that are under him. Instead, the mayor was going off the deep end himself.

So you'd feel better about things if they were all dead, unsafe and manly? What? :confused:
I don't think anybody deserves to be alive and comfortable at the expense of others.

How would you like the doctor doing your operation to stop in the middle and leave because it's too hard?

How would you like the firefighters to stop because the blaze consuming your home is too hot?

How would you like the judge and lawyers to throw out your case because it's easier to just judge you guity and get on with life?


all these professions have suicides and "cowards" its just that:

1) the lawyers and the Judge have never been put in the extreme situations that are going on in New Orleans

2) know one has yet to whinge loud enough that they are not doing there job (apart from Doctors who get sued because they made the wrong choice)

And do you think the police are just going to get away with being “cowards they are going to have to live with the fact that people died because they weren’t there for the rest of there lives

so your saying a few cops in battered cloths could police the whole of New Orleans I think you need to remember

1) they have to stick to the law

2) poor black Americans and the police force aren’t even on uneasy terms

3) there isn't possibly enough police numbers (even if there hadn't been a hurricane) to stop every person in the city descending into anarchyif they do what they can they can do it.

start with a small comunity and slowly expand. Get the citizens to help. if there are anyone out there that are still on uneasy terms with the Police after a F*#king Cat 4 Hurricane tore through the city, then that is not my problem nor is it the police.

the moment one sits down and does nothing, the weight of the loss doubles. keep busy and keep the people busy and you'll find things being accomplished. That's what happened when Kauai was hit. the community pulled together and the island was rebuilt. strangers helped to clear debris, community kitches sprang up all over the place to feed and shelter people who lost their homes. Gangs roamed the streets Helping Others.

If New Orleans is such a place where the Community spirit is so dead and gone that people would rather sit and wait for help then try to help themselves, then, and only then, I don't blame the cops one bit for walking.

Would those of you who are defending the policemen, would you defend the medical teams down there who give up in the middle of an emergency operation because "they couldn't handle it"? But, of course you would. After all, it's only a job. They're only human. Other people are expendable.

they are going to have to live with the fact that people died because they weren’t there for the rest of there lives

Yes they will. And I hope it haunts them.

Would those of you who are defending the policemen, would you defend the medical teams down there who give up in the middle of an emergency operation because "they couldn't handle it"? But, of course you would. After all, it's only a job. They're only human. Other people are expendable.

so your telling me if a doctor has a nervous breakdown in the middle of an operation its his fault for being pushed over the edge?

Mayor: Police, firefighters traumatized

Nagin said Sunday that his top priority was to start moving traumatized police and firefighters out of the city so that they can get medical and psychological treatment.

"They've been holding the city together for three or four days, almost by themselves -- doing everything imaginable, and the toll is just to much for them," Nagin said. "So I need to get them out, and we've been trying to figure out where to take them so they can reunite with their families." (Watch video of the mayor discussing the heavy toll -- 6:20.)

Police Superintendent Eddie Compass said that two of his officers committed suicide, including one who had discovered his wife had died.

Compass also said that reports that 60 percent of the police force had deserted was "totally ridiculous."

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/katrina.impact/index.html

all these professions have suicides and "cowards" its just that:

1) the lawyers and the Judge have never been put in the extreme situations that are going on in New Orleans

2) know one has yet to whinge loud enough that they are not doing there job (apart from Doctors who get sued because they made the wrong choice)

And do you think the police are just going to get away with being “cowards they are going to have to live with the fact that people died because they weren’t there for the rest of there livesI have never called the Police "Cowards" that is Sick Dreams. I just said they were wrong to abandon the people. And if you notice, I did not call out for any punishment for those who did leave. I am merely stating what happenes when they do. the burden increases for those who remain. thus pushing them to the "Breaking Point" even faster.

Two, the pressures of lawyers and Judges are different, but they are still pressures. the pressures a cop faces are tough, but to abandon them because it's too hard is the same as a Lawyer or a judge doing the same thing because their pressure is too hard. Remember, it was posted that everyone has their 'Breaking Point' that means even Lawyers, Doctors, Firefighters Judges and even Tech Support. Heck, even Air Traffic Controllers break frequently. but they have programs to help deal with that.

Yes they will. And I hope it haunts them.

I dare you to say that to the 200 who couldn't cope in situations were not even soldiers could

Mayor: Police, firefighters traumatized

Nagin said Sunday that his top priority was to start moving traumatized police and firefighters out of the city so that they can get medical and psychological treatment.

"They've been holding the city together for three or four days, almost by themselves -- doing everything imaginable, and the toll is just to much for them," Nagin said. "So I need to get them out, and we've been trying to figure out where to take them so they can reunite with their families." (Watch video of the mayor discussing the heavy toll -- 6:20.)

Police Superintendent Eddie Compass said that two of his officers committed suicide, including one who had discovered his wife had died.

Compass also said that reports that 60 percent of the police force had deserted was "totally ridiculous."

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/katrina.impact/index.htmlNice... at least those left because they were told to...

any word on if replacement officers are being sent in to keep order?

and are the leaving officers taking some of the citizens with them? would be nice as they can also help with the evac.

[/quote=CNN]Mayor: Police, firefighters traumatized

Nagin said Sunday that his top priority was to start moving traumatized police and firefighters out of the city so that they can get medical and psychological treatment.

"They've been holding the city together for three or four days, almost by themselves -- doing everything imaginable, and the toll is just to much for them," Nagin said. "So I need to get them out, and we've been trying to figure out where to take them so they can reunite with their families." (Watch video of the mayor discussing the heavy toll -- 6:20.)

Police Superintendent Eddie Compass said that two of his officers committed suicide, including one who had discovered his wife had died.

Compass also said that reports that 60 percent of the police force had deserted was "totally ridiculous."

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/katrina.impact/index.html[/QUOTE]
Well, there you go! God bless the ones who have to be "taken" out because they are falling apart. They STAYED UNTIL THEY BROKE. A horrible situation, yes, but a sign of TRUE heroism. Wonder what the cowards think. "GEE , what a bunch of dummies, they should've left with us"

I have never called the Police "Cowards" that is Sick Dreams. I just said they were wrong to abandon the people. And if you notice, I did not call out for any punishment for those who did leave. I am merely stating what happenes when they do. the burden increases for those who remain. thus pushing them to the "Breaking Point" even faster.

Two, the pressures of lawyers and Judges are different, but they are still pressures. the pressures a cop faces are tough, but to abandon them because it's too hard is the same as a Lawyer or a judge doing the same thing because their pressure is too hard. Remember, it was posted that everyone has their 'Breaking Point' that means even Lawyers, Doctors, Firefighters Judges and even Tech Support. Heck, even Air Traffic Controllers break frequently. but they have programs to help deal with that.

so a cop close to suicide would be helpful?

so your telling me if a doctor has a nervous breakdown in the middle of an operation its his fault for being pushed over the edge?

I'm saying if he would be prone to nervous breakdowns, he shouldn't have applied for that career in the first place. It's someone's life we're talking about here. I wouldn't expect him to rescue someone's belongings or puppy, but, it's not. It's another human. Giving up because it's too hard isn't excusable.

As an edit: And I wouldn't blame the doctor who stayed only to break down in the middle of it. I'd commend him. It's those who'd leave before hand or not do the surgery at all that I'd be angry with.

I dare you to say that to the 200 who couldn't cope in situations were not even soldiers could
You show me the people who abandoned their fellow humans in time of need, and I'll spit in their face! Call me all the names you want.

so a cop close to suicide would be helpful?their leaving still places a burden on those left doing their job.

and I still am not calling any cop who abandons his/her duty, by any means, a coward.

Well, there you go! God bless the ones who have to be "taken" out because they are falling apart. They STAYED UNTIL THEY BROKE. A horrible situation, yes, but a sign of TRUE heroism. Wonder what the cowards think. "GEE , what a bunch of dummies, they should've left with us"
Read Antoine de Saint-Exupery's autobiographic novel 'Flight to Arras' for details of the psychology of collapse.

Well, there you go! God bless the ones who have to be "taken" out because they are falling apart. They STAYED UNTIL THEY BROKE. A horrible situation, yes, but a sign of TRUE heroism. Wonder what the cowards think. "GEE , what a bunch of dummies, they should've left with us"

find me one case of a cop admitting that he couldn't be bothered

and how could there be any cops without the excuse that my house, family and cherished possessions have just been destroyed

their leaving still places a burden on those left doing their job.

and I still am not calling any cop who abandons his/her duty, by any means, a coward.

and what job would that be? the national guard and army are in control and have been since before the hurricane hit

their leaving still places a burden on those left doing their job.

and I still am not calling any cop who abandons his/her duty, by any means, a coward.

and what job would that be? the national guard and army are in control and have been since before the hurricane hit

After 911 I thought we'd all come togehter but it hasn't happened yet, and unfortunatly America never will, till it's WAY TOO LATE.
Rich

One of the cornerstones of American philosophy- namely, individualism- is at once a blessing and a curse. It inspires people to hard work and innovation in the pursuit of a better life, but unfortunately it lends itself to a lot of people having a feeling of entitlement where they think that they deserve whatever they can get their hands on- honestly, if possible, but dishonestly, if it comes down to it. It's evident in how opportunistic people are with litigation. Doing something stupid and injure yourself? Find someone who should have made you safer and sue them. Feel offended because you don't 'like' your doctor warning you that you're obese? Sue him. And when disasters strike, it's the same individualism, the same sense of 'every man for himself' that helps encourage looting. It's the counterforce to those noble impulses that do pull a lot of people together during a crisis.

American people, like people everywhere, do have a lot of good. But one of the ideals that drives them to their greatest accomplishments also sets many of them at each other's throats when the chips are down.

Just an FYI - when you lose your spouse you do not "bawl your eyes out and then get on with helping people". When you lose your spouse your entire universe collapses around you. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, matters to you anymore. People try to console you and you can see their lips moving but you cannot hear their voices. You feel like you are suffocating. The last thing the world needs is for you to be holding a gun, and the last thing you would even remember (let alone care about) is some vow you took in a world that does not exist for you anymore.

And yes, I know this from experience. Twice.

Not judging them for having a breaking point. but they did take the oath to do a job. so I'm juding them for abandoning their job.

Sure, but what exactly is their job? Serve and protect, right? I'm Australian, I don't know what the job descriptions of a NOPD officer is, but I *do* know you have the concept of "Above and Beyond" - implying that there IS a limit to what they are expected to do.
Would trying to keep order in a flooded city, while gangs out-gun you, all communication as (potentially) broken down, and it's not obvious what you're even meant to be doing count as "above and beyond"?

I argue that the police that *stayed* are heroes, brave, brave men and women. The ones that left are human, and don't live up to the standard of those that stayed, but not everyone is able to deal with the same situations in the same way.

It's quite possible that many of the officers who left would gladly lay down their lives if they had clear direction, and knew that giving up their lives would help. It's quite possible that, not being able to see what they can do in this city, they decided to leave, save themselves. Understandable, you can't help anyone else if you can't help yourself first.

How would you like the doctor doing your operation to stop in the middle and leave because it's too hard?
It's called triage. Happens in hospitals and it DEFINATELY happens in battlefields. Oh, and that's when the doctors aren't in danger, if they are getting shot at they almost always leave.
Their job is to save lives when they can, not get shot at. If they live, they will be around to save more lives tomorrow.

How would you like the firefighters to stop because the blaze consuming your home is too hot?
I don't know if there's a word for this, but it happens, too. Firefighters will often let the burning house burn down, and just stop the fire from spreading. I'd rather a house burns down than a firefighters life is lost. And these are men who will run into burning buildings at the risk of their lives to save other people.

How would you like the judge and lawyers to throw out your case because it's easier to just judge you guity and get on with life?
State of emergencies, battlefield trials, military tribunals? In these situations the legal standing *does* change, and the burden of proof is, sometimes, removed. In cases when they need to make quick judgements and get on with the job, this does happen. Cases get thrown out because it's easier to judge guilty and get on with life. There are cases where "innocent until proved guilty" does NOT apply. Please note, I am both Australian, and not a lawyer, but I'm sure someone else can give more details on this.

We all have breaking points but to let the people who are counting on you down because of fustration, is just not right.

Of course it's not right. That's what "breaking point" means. If someone has reached their "breaking point" they are not in a mental state to act logically and do what is "right". They are "broken" and unable to function properly.
You want these "broken" people to be the ones responsible to organize and lead everyone else?

http://shopmystate.com/logon/Tribute-9-11/Firefighter-Angel.jpg You guys are right. We should all just give up. Who needs heros anyways?[/sarcasm]

It's quite possible that many of the officers who left would gladly lay down their lives if they had clear direction, and knew that giving up their lives would help. It's quite possible that, not being able to see what they can do in this city, they decided to leave, save themselves. Understandable, you can't help anyone else if you can't help yourself first.

NOT BEING ABLE TO SEE WHAT THEY CAN DO? Are you kidding? Are you seriously gonna sit there and try to say that they couldn't see anything that needed to be done?

NOT BEING ABLE TO SEE WHAT THEY CAN DO? Are you kidding? Are you seriously gonna sit there and try to say that they couldn't see anything that needed to be done?

OK. Let me rephrase that. Not being able to see what they could do MORE than the next citizen.
If there is something that needs special policing abilities that only they can provide, sure. If it's someone that needs to be dug out of a collapsed house, well, a cop is no better at that than a gardener.

The cop is just as much at blame as the gardener if they walk past and don't dig out the person, but I don't blame the cop for walking past any more than I blame the gardener.

I suspect that the cops that were in a coordinated centre, keeping order with support from other officers were much less likely to desert. I suspect the cop that looks around at the devastation, and doesn't have any more than maybe one or two officers with them, who can't imagine trying to keep order in this disaster with a few pistols while the gang members run wild, I suspect those are the ones that desert.

I've considered joining the army (to use computers, not to carry a gun), but decided against it. If there ever is a war, or a disaster like this, I don't want to be obligated to stay, I want to be entirely free to do the best I can to protect my family. I understand that very well. If I was a police officer there, and I had a chance to get my family members out of the city, I'd be deserting my job if necessary. No question.
You can claim I'm "better" than them, because I never accepted a job that will put those obligations upon me, I don't think I am. They've spent their life out there serving and protecting. I think extreme circumstances call for extreme valor, and I accept that not everyone has that sort of extreme valor (me included). And I suspect that the police department wouldn't have cared, because they were not hiring these officers to keep order in a flooded city, fighting gangs. They were hiring them to keep order in a working new orleans. There IS a difference.

Now, if the national guard cut and run, I'd be nowhere near as sympathetic. But even then we make allowances for battlefield trauma, and that's for people who are not at home, and trained for the situation.

and what job would that be? the national guard and army are in control and have been since before the hurricane hitthe national guard and Army don't take over the job, but assist. the cops are still there to do their job.

if they are relieved, then it's not abandoning their job.

OK. Let me rephrase that. Not being able to see what they could do MORE than the next citizen.
If there is something that needs special policing abilities that only they can provide, sure. If it's someone that needs to be dug out of a collapsed house, well, a cop is no better at that than a gardener.
Are you seriously comparing cops to gardeners? Damn. Thats just....... Damn.

JuNii and Sick Dreams still don't understand that they aren't going to convince anyone that they're right.

JuNii and Sick Dreams still don't understand that they aren't going to convince anyone that they're right.
They're just trolls. People got caught up in a tragedy, and all they can do is pile on the playa hate.

JuNii and Sick Dreams still don't understand that they aren't going to convince anyone that they're right.

And it doesn't seem that you're going to convice anyone that the police were justified.

Fair trade.

JuNii and Sick Dreams still don't understand that they aren't going to convince anyone that they're right.
And you still don't understand. I don't care who i convince. In my opinion, whoever supports these "cowards" is quite possibly a closet coward themselves, seeing as they can "easily see how someone can abandon their fellow man in times of need". I hope you all keep your positions loud and clear. I'll know who I can't count on if I ever need help.

Sure, but what exactly is their job? Serve and protect, right? I'm Australian, I don't know what the job descriptions of a NOPD officer is, but I *do* know you have the concept of "Above and Beyond" - implying that there IS a limit to what they are expected to do.
Would trying to keep order in a flooded city, while gangs out-gun you, all communication as (potentially) broken down, and it's not obvious what you're even meant to be doing count as "above and beyond"?so if the situation is that bad, you will give up and leave the hapless citizen to be a victim of the Gangs? if they are going to leave (leave, not commit suicide), take as much as they can with them. that's still doing your duty.

I argue that the police that *stayed* are heroes, brave, brave men and women. The ones that left are human, and don't live up to the standard of those that stayed, but not everyone is able to deal with the same situations in the same way.Not denying any one of them their 'Hero' status, and I'm not calling the ones who left "Cowards" that wasn't me. please remember that.

It's quite possible that many of the officers who left would gladly lay down their lives if they had clear direction, and knew that giving up their lives would help. It's quite possible that, not being able to see what they can do in this city, they decided to leave, save themselves. Understandable, you can't help anyone else if you can't help yourself first.Are you suggesting the Cops are Automatons, unable to think on their own without orders from higher up? Gangs formed and are runing amok, you're saying the cops could not gather people together and offer them leadership? The cops here in Hawaii are trained to provide leadership in any situation. If there was trouble, would your Officers know what to do? I think they would. Now if the NOPD tried to do everything themselves, then I would say that was a misuse of resources. but not knowing what they did, I would rather say them just leaving places a burden on those behind. Note, I am not calling any officer a coward. Not a one.

It's called triage. Happens in hospitals and it DEFINATELY happens in battlefields. Oh, and that's when the doctors aren't in danger, if they are getting shot at they almost always leave.
Their job is to save lives when they can, not get shot at. If they live, they will be around to save more lives tomorrow.My point was, if the cops left because they were fustrated then they were wrong. if a doctor leave in the middle of an operation, (no mention of triage, or being shot at.) because it's too hard, I'll bet no one here would be defending the doctor's feelings. remember, cops here have this little thing called a bullet proof vest to help protect him from the gangs, the average citizen does not.


I don't know if there's a word for this, but it happens, too. Firefighters will often let the burning house burn down, and just stop the fire from spreading. I'd rather a house burns down than a firefighters life is lost. And these are men who will run into burning buildings at the risk of their lives to save other people.that is true, If the fire is too big to handle, all they will do is contain it. but they would still try to put it out. they will still make the attempt to rescue anyone trapped, they will still do what they swore to do untill that deterination is made. and even then, they will minimize the damage to other buildings.

State of emergencies, battlefield trials, military tribunals? In these situations the legal standing *does* change, and the burden of proof is, sometimes, removed. In cases when they need to make quick judgements and get on with the job, this does happen. Cases get thrown out because it's easier to judge guilty and get on with life. There are cases where "innocent until proved guilty" does NOT apply. Please note, I am both Australian, and not a lawyer, but I'm sure someone else can give more details on this.didn't mention anything about state of emergency. this is talk of Pressure affecting people. bet you tho, that whatever the results, people would still be critising those lawyers and judges...
Of course it's not right. That's what "breaking point" means. If someone has reached their "breaking point" they are not in a mental state to act logically and do what is "right". They are "broken" and unable to function properly. You want these "broken" people to be the ones responsible to organize and lead everyone else?Cops are provided training in crisis management, crowd control and working together. or at least those here are. I'm assuming that those in NO are too.
if not, if those officers are not provided any training for crisis management, handing civilians in a crisis, or even crowd control, then I will stand down for the blame is not on them but their training.

JuNii and Sick Dreams still don't understand that they aren't going to convince anyone that they're right.One thing, I am not supporting Sick Dreams comments about calling the cops cowards, never have. never will.

but if the cops are being removed for "psychological Treatment" Are there not more being put in?

How are the cops getting the word to pull out? I thought their radios are dead, if not and replacements are being handed out, well that solves the communication problem.

The lack of officers will put a burden on those still trying to do their jobs, Do you agree with this?

The lack of officers gives gangs control. Do you agree with this?

The lack of officers fuels dispair and makes citizens do rash and crazy things, do you agree with this?

Everyone else, here is saying screw the citizens, the officers need to go and get rest. let the citizens fend for themselves because the cops had enough. Do you agree with that sentiment?

I hope you all keep your positions loud and clear. I'll know who I can't count on if I ever need help.
Well I'm not counting on someone who has some sort of bitter attention-seeking complex.

Well I'm not counting on someone who has some sort of bitter attention-seeking complex.
:confused:

They're just trolls. People got caught up in a tragedy, and all they can do is pile on the playa hate.careful on the trolling comment TG.

I will again reiterate, I am not with Sick Dream about calling any officer a "Coward" I am saying that those that Abandon their duty is wrong. note: Abandon, not being sent away, but abamdoning their job. those that commit suicide I am not touching for that is beyond my judgment.

can you honestly state that the cops who left their job, (left, not called away, not ordered for counsiling or treatment, but up and left) are justified?

You poor poor pathetic..*sighs* against my better judgement i checked this thread again.. Now guys i know no one is going ot convince you you're wrong. But you havent been there. Why dont you all just walk away - vent to your friends if you happen to have any about what disgusting things the police are doing. Honestly at this point in time i think it would be considered courageous if you went to new orleans and helped out instead of sitting behind your god damn computer and bitching that the cops werent doing their jobs. I'll even give you a uniform, i'll give you a gun with a few rounds. i'll give you the stupid bullet proof vest and see how tough it makes you guys feel. i'll give you a car without petrol and i will give you a battery operated radio that doenst have batteries. And just for the real life experience, we'll starve you for a week and kill your family. It'll be like playing survivor - the real game! Now go be useful and restore order - in theory its great! See how it works in practise yeah boys?

You show me the people who abandoned their fellow humans in time of need, and I'll spit in their face! Call me all the names you want.

I would like to spit in your face if you did that. did you not notice that one of the suicide cops wife had died? What is wrong with you people? Cops are not robots they have feelings too...the city has not been abandoned the national guard and police officers from other states have all been given police powers ..so the city is being patrolled.... DOES noone watch CNN? Get the facts and quit the speculating!! This is is a tragic situation and who compares the police to doctors -that is comparing apples and oranges!! Surgeons are not allowed to operate constantly -they are relieved if the operation is (which is a rarity) in a marathon type situation. They are RELIEVED! Where is the relief for these men? YOu cant just keep running on empty-eventually the engine runs out and dies!! I can see your name is quite fitting! you are quite sick..

careful on the trolling comment TG.

I will again reiterate, I am not with Sick Dream about calling any officer a "Coward" I am saying that those that Abandon their duty is wrong. note: Abandon, not being sent away, but abamdoning their job. those that commit suicide I am not touching for that is beyond my judgment.

can you honestly state that the cops who left their job, (left, not called away, not ordered for counsiling or treatment, but up and left) are justified?

I have to agree more to your stance. I don't blame those who have breakdowns, or who need counselling for psychological damages. It's the deserters and those that abandon their friends and those in need that really agitate the heck outta me. Those who do stay, even those who end up breaking down, they all deserve medals. Those who desert should be reprimanded.

You poor poor pathetic..*sighs* against my better judgement i checked this thread again.. Now guys i know no one is going ot convince you you're wrong. But you havent been there. Why dont you all just walk away - vent to your friends if you happen to have any about what disgusting things the police are doing. Honestly at this point in time i think it would be considered courageous if you went to new orleans and helped out instead of sitting behind your god damn computer and bitching that the cops werent doing their jobs. I'll even give you a uniform, i'll give you a gun with a few rounds. i'll give you the stupid bullet proof vest and see how tough it makes you guys feel. i'll give you a car without petrol and i will give you a battery operated radio that doenst have batteries. And just for the real life experience, we'll starve you for a week and kill your family. It'll be like playing survivor - the real game! Now go be useful and restore order - in theory its great! See how it works in practise yeah boys?
In between saying I have no friends, and saying you'd kill my family for me, I noticed you offered help. I don't need a uniform, or a vest or a radio. I have my own gun, thanks. Wanna put your money where your mouth is? Send me a plane ticket to the airport nearest to New Orleans. And then enough cash to get a cab to get the rest of the way. I'm willing to go. Better yet, meet me at the airport. Lets both go. I'm ready right now! Let's go. I'll put up my address right on this thread.

careful on the trolling comment TG.
Careful how, LOL? I've had occasion to delete and forum-ban people for it before, so it's not as if my judgement is flawed. A troll can be recognised as such, the way a spade is a spade.

Are you seriously comparing cops to gardeners? Damn. Thats just....... Damn.

Yes, I am seriously comparing cops to gardeners. In a situation where the cops training won't help at all, where they are both equally able to help another human being.

They are both in the exact same situation. Just because the cop has, previously, undertaken a job that involves helping others, it makes no difference. If they are equally able to help, and the cop has no special training, then they are morally equally obliged to help.

At least to my mind.

If I'm trapped under a building, and a gardener could help me, I'm going to be just as mad at him as I'll be at the cop, if I get no help. We expect cops to be somehow better, more superhuman, but they aren't. They're normal people, too.

And normal people, like the gardener, can help, too.

I would like to spit in your face if you did that. did you not notice that one of the suicide cops wife had died? What is wrong with you people? Cops are not robots they have feelings too...the city has not been abandoned the national guard and police officers from other states have all been given police powers ..so the city is being patrolled.... DOES noone watch CNN? Get the facts and quit the speculating!! This is is a tragic situation and who compares the police to doctors -that is comparing apples and oranges!! Surgeons are not allowed to operate constantly -they are relieved if the operation is (which is a rarity) in a marathon type situation. They are RELIEVED! Where is the relief for these men? YOu cant just keep running on empty-eventually the engine runs out and dies!! I can see your name is quite fitting! you are quite sick..
Yeah, the military is in charge NOW. Tell that to the people who waited for days for relief. Tell that to the cops who DID stay, and needed "relieved". Tell that to the people who couldn't find food or water. Explain to them why these particular cops abandoned them.

Careful how, LOL? I've had occasion to delete and forum-ban people for it before, so it's not as if my judgement is flawed. A troll can be recognised as such, the way a spade is a spade.
Well, I guess its a good thing your an "ex" moderator. How have I violated any forum rules? Define which part of my statement would be considered trolling, please.

Yes, I am seriously comparing cops to gardeners. In a situation where the cops training won't help at all, where they are both equally able to help another human being.

They are both in the exact same situation. Just because the cop has, previously, undertaken a job that involves helping others, it makes no difference. If they are equally able to help, and the cop has no special training, then they are morally equally obliged to help.

At least to my mind.

If I'm trapped under a building, and a gardener could help me, I'm going to be just as mad at him as I'll be at the cop, if I get no help. We expect cops to be somehow better, more superhuman, but they aren't. They're normal people, too.

And normal people, like the gardener, can help, too. The thing is, cops are trained to deal with death, trained to deal with disasters, trained to put personal feelings aside and get a job done. They aren't "superhuman", but they are supposed to be there for us, and they are prepared for it. That gives them an atvantage that a gardener just doesn't have.

Well, I guess its a good thing your an "ex" moderator. How have I violated any forum rules? Define which part of my statement would be considered trolling, please.
Frankly, the content and tone of your thread would have earned it a lock from me a page or two ago. But seeing as I resigned as a Moderator last December due to time pressures, I am making an effort to debate your rather offensively-expressed opinions.

Frankly, the content and tone of your thread would have earned it a lock from me a page or two ago. But seeing as I resigned as a Moderator last December due to time pressures, I am making an effort to debate your rather offensively-expressed opinions.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't trolling when you start a thread for no other reason than to piss people off? I statred this thread for the purpose of letting people know that in my opinion, some 200 cops failed the people of New Orleans, and failed America as a whole. I listed a source, I expressed an opinion. I welcomed debate. I think you just don't like my opinion. Well, too bad.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't trolling when you start a thread for no other reason than to piss people off? I statred this thread for the purpose of letting people know that in my opinion, some 200 cops failed the people of New Orleans, and failed America as a whole. I listed a source, I expressed an opinion. I welcomed debate. I think you just don't like my opinion. Well, too bad.
You can do all those things, but if the nature of the opinion is very likely to piss people off, and there is reasonable reason to believe that the thread poster is aware of this, then the thread can get shut down. It really depends on the judgement of the Moderation staff. Considering my opinion, you're walking a pretty fine line.

Well, I guess its a good thing your an "ex" moderator. How have I violated any forum rules? Define which part of my statement would be considered trolling, please.

And you still don't understand. I don't care who i convince. In my opinion, whoever supports these "cowards" is quite possibly a closet coward themselves , seeing as they can "easily see how someone can abandon their fellow man in times of need". I hope you all keep your positions loud and clear. I'll know who I can't count on if I ever need help.
He're some mild flaming from you.

And your knew your opinion would tick people off right? If you didn't then why are you even posting since you would have to have a very dim view of Human Nature to not notice the effect of calling all of those cops cowards.

Careful how, LOL? I've had occasion to delete and forum-ban people for it before, so it's not as if my judgement is flawed. A troll can be recognised as such, the way a spade is a spade.hey, TG, can we move this to Mod Forum? don't wanna hijack this thread on this subject of trolling, and really don't want the whole of General to reduce it to flaming.

so if the situation is that bad, you will give up and leave the hapless citizen to be a victim of the Gangs? if they are going to leave (leave, not commit suicide), take as much as they can with them. that's still doing your duty.

I'd like to think that, if I could help, I would. However, I also accept that, if the situation is bad enough, I'm getting out of there. If everyone put others first, and all helped out, there never would have been a big problem, it'd be a wonderful world. The tragedy would be only those that died in the hurricane, and the property damage.

However, it's not like that. My first concern is to the people I love. I am going to put their lives above others, and certainly above my job. I'm abandoning my computer services position to make sure I can do what I can for my family.
I'd still like to think that, if I see others I can help, I would. That's not my first priority, though. Not before the safety of my family (and, probably, the safety of myself)

Yes, I am a closet coward. I have done "brave" things, such as talked someone down from a fight (when it would have been safer for me, actually, to hit him. Strange situation, I know) - but I don't have illusions. There are many situations where I'll be looking out for mine and myself first.

I expect more from the cops, sure. I really do expect more, but I also understand when they don't or can't deliver.

Not denying any one of them their 'Hero' status, and I'm not calling the ones who left "Cowards" that wasn't me. please remember that.

This is true. I apologize, it is true that in my mind I associated you with the "cowards" comment, as I tend to see the "counter-argument" as something of a single, unified block. Sorry.

Are you suggesting the Cops are Automatons, unable to think on their own without orders from higher up? Gangs formed and are runing amok, you're saying the cops could not gather people together and offer them leadership? The cops here in Hawaii are trained to provide leadership in any situation. If there was trouble, would your Officers know what to do? I think they would. Now if the NOPD tried to do everything themselves, then I would say that was a misuse of resources. but not knowing what they did, I would rather say them just leaving places a burden on those behind. Note, I am not calling any officer a coward. Not a one.

I'm not saying they are Automatons, but part of not being automatons is that they may give in to despair, be confused, be unsure, be *afraid*. Have you ever been utterly, absolutely, terrified? You can *not* respond in a rational way.

I can picture a cop going "gangs are formed and running amok, I don't have the firepower to fight them...I can't stop them, what's the use in gathering these people that I can't protect together". Fortunately not everyone thought like that.

If there is trouble, I hope my officers do know what to do. I hope they all stand tall. I still don't think anyone expected trouble of this magnitude, and although they had training, I suspect they didn't have training to deal with trouble of this magnitude. I suspect they were in over their heads. Even if there was still things they could do to help.

My point was, if the cops left because they were fustrated then they were wrong. if a doctor leave in the middle of an operation, (no mention of triage, or being shot at.) because it's too hard, I'll bet no one here would be defending the doctor's feelings. remember, cops here have this little thing called a bullet proof vest to help protect him from the gangs, the average citizen does not.

I think the "too hard" comment is misleading. A doctor MIGHT leave if the operation is "too hard" - as in, they decide they can't save the patient. They tend not to, but they have the luxury of their lives not being at risk.
Doctors DO say "I'm sorry, we can't save you" to people. A 16 year old girl I knew got told that. I still tear up when I think about her. The doctor isn't at fault, he did all he could. I don't blame him, he had to make the decision, and thought that there was nothing more he could do. I defend his feelings, nobody should have to tell a 16 year old girl that. I feel so sorry for that doctor.

Cops do have bullet proof vests. They do have guns. They are better equipped, and as such, they do have more moral obligation to help, since they are in a better position to help.
But I'd argue that anyone with a bullet proof vest should volunteer to help out as best they can, too.

that is true, If the fire is too big to handle, all they will do is contain it. but they would still try to put it out. they will still make the attempt to rescue anyone trapped, they will still do what they swore to do untill that deterination is made. and even then, they will minimize the damage to other buildings.

Sure. Unless it gets too big to handle, then they pull out, and call in bigger guns. They designate the street as lost (even if there are other houses untouched yet) and pull out, and wait for more firetrucks. It happens.
If it's too dangerous, they won't always make the attempt to rescue someone. There is usually someone (a captain?) making these decisions.

Not every copy had someone ready to make those decisions for them. Not every cop is capable of making those decisions for themselves. They are not automata, as you pointed out, and as such, some will decide that keeping themselves safe is the best choice. Can't help anyone if you're dead.

didn't mention anything about state of emergency. this is talk of Pressure affecting people. bet you tho, that whatever the results, people would still be critising those lawyers and judges...

A state of emergency was my example of a situation where the lawyers and judges may be under extreme pressure. Your legal system is set up to avoid those situations in normal cases. Imagine if you said to the judge "Make a decision today....or he gets released" - you might find the judge, under pressure, does not give the most satisfactory response.

Cops are provided training in crisis management, crowd control and working together. or at least those here are. I'm assuming that those in NO are too.
if not, if those officers are not provided any training for crisis management, handing civilians in a crisis, or even crowd control, then I will stand down for the blame is not on them but their training.

This is a very good point that I hadn't considered properly.
Training in crisis management, same as with bullet proof vests, does make them more able to help out. This does give them more moral obligation to help (assuming they realize that this training will help - which they really should).

I still argue that if a civilian is equally able to help as the cop, then they have as much moral obligation to help as the cop.

The thing is, cops are trained to deal with death, trained to deal with disasters, trained to put personal feelings aside and get a job done. They aren't "superhuman", but they are supposed to be there for us, and they are prepared for it. That gives them an atvantage that a gardener just doesn't have.

Oh! I'll accept and agree with that 100%
A cop with better training to deal with disasters *should* perform better than a gardener, in the case of a disaster.

And a lot of them did.

I just don't want to cast blame on the ones that didn't without knowing what their situation was. Perhaps their training was ineffective and they weren't any better suited to deal with the disaster than the gardener. Perhaps their families were in danger, and they decided that their family is a higher priority to them. I don't know what happened.

I *do* know that soldiers can freeze up during combat situations, where their life is in danger, where their friends lives are in danger. Those people have had much more training to deal with stressful situations (although not necessarily leadership training) - it's just one of the ways our human brains handle extreme stress. Some really really good soldiers will go into shock on the battlefield. I don't think police are necessarily any tougher than soldiers, and they almost certainly weren't trained for such extreme cases.

Chances are (and note that I don't know your police training), they are more practiced and trained to deal with talking a drunk man down after a domestic dispute than in convincing people to stay in an area with dead bodies outside. Chances are their training tells them "in a situation like this, move the civilians away" which is not an option in this case. I just don't think that, even if they've had training, it is likely to have prepared them for this situation.

I *do* think that if they've had training, it's probably prepared them better than the gardener will be prepared. And as such they are more obligated to stay and help. I do agree with you on this point, I'm just moderating the amount that I blame them, due to extreme circumstances.

(see? It is possible to change my mind!)

You can do all those things, but if the nature of the opinion is very likely to piss people off, and there is reasonable reason to believe that the thread poster is aware of this, then the thread can get shut down. It really depends on the judgement of the Moderation staff. Considering my opinion, you're walking a pretty fine line.
You can't just shut down every thread that pisses people off. Have you EVER seen a thread where everyone was happy?

I think your definition basically means you would shut down threads that piss YOU off. I recognize that this isn't a popular opinion. But I didn't start the thread "just to piss people off" I started it to encourage a debate. Isn't that what threads are for?

Or are they just a place where only YOU can express your opinion? I personally don't like YOUR views, but you don't hear me calling for you to be "shut up". I express my views, you challenge them, and we let the people decide for themselves. Thats how debate works. If my opinion is proven unpopular, which I think it has been, then so be it. Thats fair. But if my opinion is shut out, than your opinion doesn't really matter either, without something to compare it to.

Be happy that I'm posting, because if you are as right as you think you are, then everyone will see me for the moron you think I am. Right?

Oh! I'll accept and agree with that 100%
A cop with better training to deal with disasters *should* perform better than a gardener, in the case of a disaster.

And a lot of them did.

I just don't want to cast blame on the ones that didn't without knowing what their situation was. Perhaps their training was ineffective and they weren't any better suited to deal with the disaster than the gardener. Perhaps their families were in danger, and they decided that their family is a higher priority to them. I don't know what happened.

I *do* know that soldiers can freeze up during combat situations, where their life is in danger, where their friends lives are in danger. Those people have had much more training to deal with stressful situations (although not necessarily leadership training) - it's just one of the ways our human brains handle extreme stress. Some really really good soldiers will go into shock on the battlefield. I don't think police are necessarily any tougher than soldiers, and they almost certainly weren't trained for such extreme cases.

Chances are (and note that I don't know your police training), they are more practiced and trained to deal with talking a drunk man down after a domestic dispute than in convincing people to stay in an area with dead bodies outside. Chances are their training tells them "in a situation like this, move the civilians away" which is not an option in this case. I just don't think that, even if they've had training, it is likely to have prepared them for this situation.

I *do* think that if they've had training, it's probably prepared them better than the gardener will be prepared. And as such they are more obligated to stay and help. I do agree with you on this point, I'm just moderating the amount that I blame them, due to extreme circumstances.

(see? It is possible to change my mind!)
And herein lies humanity. Although I don't 100% agree with your opinion, I CANNOT state highly enough your grace in arguing your side. And in doing that, you have softened my heart a bit about the situation. I wish everyone could just explain their side like you. There would be much less arguing going on!

Originally Posted by Sick Dreams
The thing is, cops are trained to deal with death, trained to deal with disasters, trained to put personal feelings aside and get a job done. They aren't "superhuman", but they are supposed to be there for us, and they are prepared for it. That gives them an atvantage that a gardener just doesn't have.

and that is where you are wrong. They are trained for law enforcement. That is why the Nation Gaurd is there now.

I'd like to think that, if I could help, I would. However, I also accept that, if the situation is bad enough, I'm getting out of there. If everyone put others first, and all helped out, there never would have been a big problem, it'd be a wonderful world. The tragedy would be only those that died in the hurricane, and the property damage.But it has happened before. My mistake, is that where I am, the sense of community is strong. something like this happens (and it has happened... twice.) the community pulls together and helps. Of course, you still have the looters and the scum but the majority of the citizens help each other and together lift the burden from everyone's shoulders. I guess I did expect to see that in NO.

However, it's not like that. My first concern is to the people I love. I am going to put their lives above others, and certainly above my job. I'm abandoning my computer services position to make sure I can do what I can for my family.
I'd still like to think that, if I see others I can help, I would. That's not my first priority, though. Not before the safety of my family (and, probably, the safety of myself)honestly, mine too. but after that, sitting around and waiting doesn't suit me. I would be itching to do something, Even if it's getting a fire together and boiling water to make it drinkable.

Yes, I am a closet coward. I have done "brave" things, such as talked someone down from a fight (when it would have been safer for me, actually, to hit him. Strange situation, I know) - but I don't have illusions. There are many situations where I'll be looking out for mine and myself first.to me, a coward is someone who won't even try, you did. Those cops did, and even the ones who walked away tried. So I never called any of them a coward, just wrong.

I expect more from the cops, sure. I really do expect more, but I also understand when they don't or can't deliver. I know the cops can't do it alone, thus they need to mobilize the community. hearing stories of the cops abandoning people without even a "we'll come back with better equiptment to get you down" really hurts, I work with cops yearly and they've proven their worth to me time and time again.

This is true. I apologize, it is true that in my mind I associated you with the "cowards" comment, as I tend to see the "counter-argument" as something of a single, unified block. Sorry.I realized that I didn't state my stance clearly also... :p

I'm not saying they are Automatons, but part of not being automatons is that they may give in to despair, be confused, be unsure, be *afraid*. Have you ever been utterly, absolutely, terrified? You can *not* respond in a rational way.yes, during two Hurricanes. which is why I said, even the Illusion that someone is in charge makes a whole lotta difference, and that it's important to keep people busy. the moment they stop, the full impact of what happens settles in and kicks the crap outta you. so I'm kinda speaking from experience here.

I can picture a cop going "gangs are formed and running amok, I don't have the firepower to fight them...I can't stop them, what's the use in gathering these people that I can't protect together". Fortunately not everyone thought like that.

If there is trouble, I hope my officers do know what to do. I hope they all stand tall. I still don't think anyone expected trouble of this magnitude, and although they had training, I suspect they didn't have training to deal with trouble of this magnitude. I suspect they were in over their heads. Even if there was still things they could do to help.I agree that it can happen, but even in the act of leaving, they can still take some people outta there. that's something.

I think the "too hard" comment is misleading. A doctor MIGHT leave if the operation is "too hard" - as in, they decide they can't save the patient. They tend not to, but they have the luxury of their lives not being at risk.

Doctors DO say "I'm sorry, we can't save you" to people. A 16 year old girl I knew got told that. I still tear up when I think about her. The doctor isn't at fault, he did all he could. I don't blame him, he had to make the decision, and thought that there was nothing more he could do. I defend his feelings, nobody should have to tell a 16 year old girl that. I feel so sorry for that doctor.in the hospital I work in, they usually call for help when complications come in and a team of docs do make the attempt, but they rarely (since I'm not normally in the OR area so I can't say Never.) leave the patient to die unless everything that can be done has been done.

and that was when the argument was that it was ok for cops to abandon their jobs because it's too fustrating, and too hard.

Sure. Unless it gets too big to handle, then they pull out, and call in bigger guns. They designate the street as lost (even if there are other houses untouched yet) and pull out, and wait for more firetrucks. It happens.
If it's too dangerous, they won't always make the attempt to rescue someone. There is usually someone (a captain?) making these decisions.

Not every cop had someone ready to make those decisions for them. Not every cop is capable of making those decisions for themselves. They are not automata, as you pointed out, and as such, some will decide that keeping themselves safe is the best choice. Can't help anyone if you're dead.glad the officer on duty when that gun welding woman stormed the ER made the choice to stand between her and everyone else, without asking her captain what to do, or waiting for backup. would've been really messy.

and she did talk the woman to handing over her weapon without a shot being fired by anyone.


I still argue that if a civilian is equally able to help as the cop, then they have as much moral obligation to help as the cop.and that's where community spirit helps. unfortunatly, all the pics I see in the news shows people sitting on corners weeping or complaining that 'Help isn't coming'

then again, perhaps I am A little sheltered here on the Islands. :p

the reason they quit and left is simple. Its called "situational exhaustion" otherwise known as "combat exhaustion" or "combat fatigue". It is caused by physical exhaustion, unrelenting and continual stress, lack of leadership, and sheer unrelenting horror of the situation they are in.

That so few collapsed surprises me more than how many finally did.

and that is where you are wrong. They are trained for law enforcement. That is why the Nation Gaurd is there now.
Hvae you ever seen a pileup on the highway? You live in Ohio, so I KNOW you've seen highways shut odwn from snow, with people trapped. It's cold, it's miserable, and the police are trained to deal with it. Thats a disaster, and they are trained for it. The New Orleans police are trained to deal with hurricanes. They have plans. They have protocols.
I'm not saying this was a typical hurricane. But to run from it was just wrong.

the reason they quit and left is simple. Its called "situational exhaustion" otherwise known as "combat exhaustion" or "combat fatigue". It is caused by physical exhaustion, unrelenting and continual stress, lack of leadership, and sheer unrelenting horror of the situation they are in.

That so few collapsed surprises me more than how many finally did.

Right, and how many of them are in the same situation that the rest of the population is in.

Hvae you ever seen a pileup on the highway? You live in Ohio, so I KNOW you've seen highways shut odwn from snow, with people trapped. It's cold, it's miserable, and the police are trained to deal with it. Thats a disaster, and they are trained for it. The New Orleans police are trained to deal with hurricanes. They have plans. They have protocols.
I'm not saying this was a typical hurricane. But to run from it was just wrong.

Not during a blizzard. You have to wait for someone else to dig them out. What happened in New Orleans is far too extreem for the police to deal with.

Right, and how many of them are in the same situation that the rest of the population is in.

probably all of them, and they also have the stress of not only their own families, but also their sense of duty and responsibility and even greater feeling of helpless knowing that events have overwhelmed the ability of them and their department to deal with.

But it has happened before. My mistake, is that where I am, the sense of community is strong. something like this happens (and it has happened... twice.) the community pulls together and helps. Of course, you still have the looters and the scum but the majority of the citizens help each other and together lift the burden from everyone's shoulders. I guess I did expect to see that in NO.

You have a good community. If only more places were like that. I respect them for it (whoever they may be)

honestly, mine too. but after that, sitting around and waiting doesn't suit me. I would be itching to do something, Even if it's getting a fire together and boiling water to make it drinkable.

But that's just you. You seem to be more proactive, not everyone will do that without being told...
...which leads me to...

yes, during two Hurricanes. which is why I said, even the Illusion that someone is in charge makes a whole lotta difference, and that it's important to keep people busy. the moment they stop, the full impact of what happens settles in and kicks the crap outta you. so I'm kinda speaking from experience here.

...this. You have more knowledge about this than me, it seems. I 100% concede the point on this topic, that the cops are necessary and should be there providing even an illusion of order.

I still don't blame the ones who walked, due to the extreme situation, though. Even if they should have been there.

to me, a coward is someone who won't even try, you did. Those cops did, and even the ones who walked away tried. So I never called any of them a coward, just wrong.

As you've stated already, you never called them cowards, so we've got no diagreement here :)

I know the cops can't do it alone, thus they need to mobilize the community. hearing stories of the cops abandoning people without even a "we'll come back with better equiptment to get you down" really hurts, I work with cops yearly and they've proven their worth to me time and time again.

And scary! Again with that illusion of control thing you said.

I agree that it can happen, but even in the act of leaving, they can still take some people outta there. that's something.

We don't know they didn't. Or that they didn't keep their car clear for the small orphan girl they might meet instead. Or that they weren't walking out on foot.

I'm sure some didn't, and if they had a chance to save someone and didn't, I do think this is inexcusable.

in the hospital I work in, they usually call for help when complications come in and a team of docs do make the attempt, but they rarely (since I'm not normally in the OR area so I can't say Never.) leave the patient to die unless everything that can be done has been done.

Yes, but the doctors aren't in such extreme positions, they aren't in any personal danger by trying to save the person even when all hope has gone.

and that was when the argument was that it was ok for cops to abandon their jobs because it's too fustrating, and too hard.
My counter-argument to this has always been that they probably weren't abandoning their job purely from frustration, or because it was "too hard" (yet still achievable).

glad the officer on duty when that gun welding woman stormed the ER made the choice to stand between her and everyone else, without asking her captain what to do, or waiting for backup. would've been really messy.

and she did talk the woman to handing over her weapon without a shot being fired by anyone.

She's a hero. Not everyone, not even all cops, are. Even if they should be.

and that's where community spirit helps. unfortunatly, all the pics I see in the news shows people sitting on corners weeping or complaining that 'Help isn't coming'

then again, perhaps I am A little sheltered here on the Islands. :p

Meh, the news will always show the worst. Until it's over, then they'll show the "amazing human spirit". Whatever will sell the best at the time. I'm much more jaded about the media than I am about these police officers.

I do have one question that wasn't answered tho.

it was posted that the cops were being pulled out to get rest and counciling... but are any being put back in to help the situation?

You all can say what you want about me. Say that "I have no idea" or "I wouldn't do any better" or "you sit in front of your computer and judge" But I know, I KNOW, that I would NEVER abandon people when they needed me the most. That badge and uniform is more than just a job. It is a symbol of hope. It is a symbol of honor and courage. And when you abandon people, while you hold that sacred position, you are held to a higher standard. THERE WERE PEOPLE DYING. I have asked my family, and they have all told me that to abandon others who COUNTED on me, just because I lost my family,is selfish,and is just wrong. Gardeners don't need to be our heros. But somebody does.

~edit~ I would have titled this thread "where have all the heros gone", but we still have plenty. Just 200 (give or take) less than a week ago.

By the way, everyone talks of "exhaustion" The cops I'm talking about quit "in the beginning" I don't fault the ones who did all they can, but couldn't do any more. Read the article I posted. Most quit before this was even a big news story. Alot quit even before the levvee's broke.

I do have one question that wasn't answered tho.

it was posted that the cops were being pulled out to get rest and counciling... but are any being put back in to help the situation?
Now that the nation gaurd has entered the picture, I don't really think they need police any more. I'm not sure if any are being added or not, but I think the military has it handled now.

BTW Please, nobody accuse JuNii of calling them cowards. That was me, and I take full responsibility for that. He never called anyone a coward.

By the way, everyone talks of "exhaustion" The cops I'm talking about quit "in the beginning" I don't fault the ones who did all they can, but couldn't do any more. Read the article I posted. Most quit before this was even a big news story. Alot quit even before the levvee's broke.to be honest, they might have been getting their families out of the city. remember, people were being let out but not back in. so they probably got stuck outside and after a while, could not get back in. Communications were cut so they really couldn't call in. Add to that the Gas situation and they probably got stuck outside.

Source - Houghton Mifflin Dictionary

HERO:
A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life:


COWARD:
One who shows ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain.


( IGNOBLE: Not noble in quality, character, or purpose; base or mean)

Source - Houghton Mifflin Dictionary

HERO:
A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life:


COWARD:
One who shows ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain.


( IGNOBLE: Not noble in quality, character, or purpose; base or mean)
You have to be very, very careful bandying about definitions like that. It's like in the First World War; without a proper understanding of the psychology of extremely stressful situations, they shot people as 'cowards' or 'lacking moral fibre'. nowadays we realise that these people will have been suffering from acute post traumatic stress disorder. Doubtless in many cases the same is true of the police in new orleans.

You have to be very, very careful bandying about definitions like that. It's like in the First World War; without a proper understanding of the psychology of extremely stressful situations, they shot people as 'cowards' or 'lacking moral fibre'. nowadays we realise that these people will have been suffering from acute post traumatic stress disorder. Doubtless in many cases the same is true of the police in new orleans.
I don't want anyone shot. I just want people to be aware that when you sign up for a tough job, you better damn well be ready for the worst of it! Being a hairstylist is a job. Being a cop is much more.

BTW Though I don't doubt that many people suffer from mental disorders, I'm a bit sick of it being an excuse for EVERYBODY. Can you seriously say that 200 police officers suffered from post traumatic stress syndrome, considering they were in pre stages of the tragedy?

I don't want anyone shot. I just want people to be aware that when you sign up for a tough job, you better damn well be ready for the worst of it! Being a hairstylist is a job. Being a cop is much more.

Yes, but signing up for a cop isn't the same as signing up for the army, and they were effectively put in a wartime-like situation.

Which just makes me respect the ones that stayed and kept order all the more. They went "above and beyond" in my opinion.

BTW Though I don't doubt that many people suffer from mental disorders, I'm a bit sick of it being an excuse for EVERYBODY. Can you seriously say that 200 police officers suffered from post traumatic stress syndrome, considering they were in pre stages of the tragedy?

I could seriously say that 200 police offers suffered from extreme stress - perhaps enough that impaired their ability to do their job. I think that's reasonable.

I don't want anyone shot. I just want people to be aware that when you sign up for a tough job, you better damn well be ready for the worst of it! Being a hairstylist is a job. Being a cop is much more.
But that's sort of the problem. It's all well and good expecting coppers to be trained and ready for this sort of thing but the reality is that it is wildly different from their everyday duties on a fundamental level.
And one of the lessons from the First World War was that a) you can't really know how someone's going to cope with these sorts of situations until you put them in them and b) the only really adequate training for these situations is to actually experience it, or something as close as possible.
Granted the day to day business of a police officer will help to some extent, some familiarity with dead bodies etc. but you have to allow that individual policemen will have different levels of experience.

BTW Though I don't doubt that many people suffer from mental disorders, I'm a bit sick of it being an excuse for EVERYBODY. Can you seriously say that 200 police officers suffered from post traumatic stress syndrome, considering they were in pre stages of the tragedy?
Now you're just splitting at hairs. I think the 'post' bit just means 'you see something traumatic/ whatever and then are traumatised' not necessarily with any long delay. I'll grant that I was mostly referring to those who the grind of lack of sleep and continued misery had affected, but then again stress affects everyone differently. I

The thing is, cops are trained to deal with death, trained to deal with disasters, trained to put personal feelings aside and get a job done. They aren't "superhuman", but they are supposed to be there for us, and they are prepared for it. That gives them an atvantage that a gardener just doesn't have.

Most cops are trained to deal with crimes -- murders, robberies, and whatnot. Most cops, as far as I know (and I know a few), are not trained to deal with what is effectively the entire world falling apart around them. Some people are psychologically able to deal with that and pull through. Some people aren't. Some people don't want to make themselves insane, and walk away. Some are driven insane and walk away. Some kill themselves.

From your tone about these cops, it seems to me like you'd also say that people who are undergoing post-traumatic stress syndrome are just pussies rather than dealing with anything psychological.

Sick.

I don't want anyone shot. I just want people to be aware that when you sign up for a tough job, you better damn well be ready for the worst of it! Being a hairstylist is a job. Being a cop is much more.

Define 'tough job'. You're saying that people, effectively, should be ready for things that almost never happen. So everyone who works in retail should be ready to be robbed?

Define 'tough job'. You're saying that people, effectively, should be ready for things that almost never happen. So everyone who works in retail should be ready to be robbed?
Yes. Whats wrong with being prepared for the worst? The people who think that the world is peaches and cream are SADLY mistaken. Be prepared, and don't take a job you can't handle. Everyone bitches about the government who "should have known this would happen". But they let everyone one else of the hook who "should have known this would happen.

If your a cop in a city built on drained wetlands, below sea level, on the coast, that is prone to hurricanes, you should also know it could happen. Complacency is no excuse for cowardice.

blah blah blah

Hey internet Rambo, how is the weather out there in Iraq?

I mean, you are out in Iraq fighting in the war aren't you? Being such a big hero, don't you have a bunch of heroic non-coward things to do, instead of yapping about situations you couldn't possibly know about?

Yes. Whats wrong with being prepared for the worst? The people who think that the world is peaches and cream are SADLY mistaken. Be prepared, and don't take a job you can't handle. Everyone bitches about the government who "should have known this would happen". But they let everyone one else of the hook who "should have known this would happen.

If your a cop in a city built on drained wetlands, below sea level, on the coast, that is prone to hurricanes, you should also know it could happen. Complacency is no excuse for cowardice.

So, anyone who's not prepared for risking their life, anywhere, shouldn't have a job?

And considering this is the worst, hugest freaking hurricane in just about forever? You expect hurricanes. You don't expect hurricanes that ruin the city.

Hey internet Rambo, how is the weather out there in Iraq?

I mean, you are out in Iraq fighting in the war aren't you? Being such a big hero, don't you have a bunch of heroic non-coward things to do, instead of yapping about situations you couldn't possibly know about?
Tell me what your REALLY feeling?

i just dont understand, yes, the world is falling to shit, but people still continue to harm the environment.
stop bitching, stop blaming people, blame your goddamn selves, and your elder family members, as we all helped to cause this.
and before you all jump on me, i am included in the blame, im just the effing open opinioned person who brought this up to all you small minded ****s
thank you.

i just dont understand, yes, the world is falling to shit, but people still continue to harm the environment.
stop bitching, stop blaming people, blame your goddamn selves, and your elder family members, as we all helped to cause this.
and before you all jump on me, i am included in the blame, im just the effing open opinioned person who brought this up to all you small minded ****s
thank you.
Dude, you need to lay off the caffeine, and quit drinkin the funny tasting koolaid. And STOP listening to the hippies.

Wow, your an idiot.
Tell me what your REALLY feeling?

You're

Go fight in Iraq, coward. Although I imagine you're not old enough.

Dude, you need to lay off the caffeine, and quit drinkin the funny tasting koolaid. And STOP listening to the hippies.

dude, what the hell is "koolaid"?
what hippies? i shot them all.

You're

Go fight in Iraq, coward. Although I imagine you're not old enough.
I'm what? (besides obviously being to young to go to war?)

I'm what? (besides obviously being to young to go to war?)

he was correcting your spelling mistake you ass.

Man, has this debate went to hell! Where the hell do these people come from?

Man, has this debate went to hell! Where the hell do these people come from?

well, im an insane australian. i dunno where the rest are from.

I haven't read the whole thread, but the premise is stupid.

These people just saw everything they had and most of the people they have ever known being swept away by the ocean. They are grieving, they are feeling hopeless, many probably feel they have nothing to live for, many are probably trying to find their families. Yes, they are policemen, but they are human beings first. You can't expect them to be perfect or to even do the right thing all the time. For all anyone knows many of the police who have left did so because they wanted to help their neighbours and family, hell, maybe the ones that didn't show up didn't make it through the storm, and here the initial poster is calling them cowardly. They must be under so much stress right now, I don't think anyone here has the right to say that what they choose to do is cowardly right now. The policemen are surviving and doing the best they can, like the rest of the city.

I haven't read the whole thread, but the premise is stupid.

These people just saw everything they had and most of the people they have ever known being swept away by the ocean. They are grieving, they are feeling hopeless, many probably feel they have nothing to live for, many are probably trying to find their families. Yes, they are policemen, but they are human beings first. You can't expect them to be perfect or to even do the right thing all the time. For all anyone knows many of the police who have left did so because they wanted to help their neighbours and family, hell, maybe the ones that didn't show up didn't make it through the storm, and here the initial poster is calling them cowardly. They must be under so much stress right now, I don't think anyone here has the right to say that what they choose to do is cowardly right now. The policemen are surviving and doing the best they can, like the rest of the city.
Well, I'm the original poster. The things you say eare discussed in the thread. I REALLY don't feel like repeating myself.

well, im an insane australian. i dunno where the rest are from.
WOW! Are you REALLY insane? COOL. Thats awsome! [/sarcasm] :headbang:

I'm quitting this thread before I get banned for saying something dumb to someone dumb.. SEE YA!

Bush did it.

Does this mean he sending a wave of locust next? Get real, I think the storm caused this did it not. I get tired of everyone blaming Bush, everyone calls the war Bush's war, but no-one remembers like some do that we ALL wanted it back in 2001.

All I'm saying is that when the going gets tough, you step up and do your job. Suicide is selfish, and cowardly. So is leaving your job because its "too hard". Do you think the victims think its ok to abandom them because its "too hard" BULLSHIT. They better lose their pensions over this shit!
And all he was saying is get your ass down there and help out--see if you could handle it.

These men were expected to do far more then their job.

Police are supported by an infrastructure--in case you hadnt noticed these arent riots--society down there has totally collapsed.
The police did not get the back up of National Gaurd and Army and FEMA as quickly as they shold have so they did what any man would do--they failed.

And all he was saying is get your ass down there and help out--see if you could handle it.

These men were expected to do far more then their job.

Police are supported by an infrastructure--in case you hadnt noticed these arent riots--society down there has totally collapsed.
The police did not get the back up of National Gaurd and Army and FEMA as quickly as they shold have so they did what any man would do--they failed.
First off, damn myself for not just ignoring it. They did what ANY man would do? Sorry, but not this man. And I've offered to go down there, so don't give me that shit.

Being a police officer is having a job. Having a job means working for money. If you can't even have the tools and abilities to do your job and hell knows whether or not you'll be paid for the effort you put in, well, at that point the cops become as good as any volenteer.
And some people simply choose not to be a volenteer, after all, it means witnessing hell.

Being like everyone else and choosing to not witness hell, thereby quitting your job is normal, it's average, you can't expect more from anyone.

Staying at your post and doing your best in spite of the hell that rages is fucking righteous.

New Orleans police lose hundreds to cowardice
??? fustration, maybe, but Cowardice?
Sad blight on the NOPD


*waits for first poster to blame this on Bush*

*Waits for Junii or some other Bush-lover to claim Bush bears no responsibility whatsoever*

No, you know what? Things didn't have to BE this bad in New Orleans, but for Bush policy going back three years...and up to and including poor, lackadaisical Federal response untuil about Day five after Katrina did her worst.

but Bush bears absolutely no responsibility, right, Junii? Right, Bush butt-kissers?

Does this mean he sending a wave of locust next? Get real, I think the storm caused this did it not. I get tired of everyone blaming Bush, everyone calls the war Bush's war, but no-one remembers like some do that we ALL wanted it back in 2001.

And I get tired of Bush butt-kissers who are determined to insist Bush never bears any responsibility for absolutely anything, ever.

And just when the hell did this turn into a thread about Bush?

Pretty much what I was gonna say. And if I had the money, I'd drive down there right now and help, but I barely covered my rent this month. Call me a coward all you want people. Won't change my opinion of the cowards in that article.

What a prick you are.

The police in New Orlean have been dumped on from all the state and federal authorities that are supposed to back them up. They have lost their home, have been no better of than the other residents for food and water for best part of a week. So after days of death and chaos, some, not knowing thier own families are ok, hand in their badge out of desperation.

You call them cowards yet you wont go to help yourself because of a little hardship. Grow up.

Those policemen and women also have homes under water, missing family members, dead loved ones. They may well have lost eveything important to them, and are victims of this storm along with everyone else in the area. They aren't super-human and the going passed tough a long way back.

Like I keep saying, I don't care what happens, you trudge on. And NO MATTER WHAT, I don't care if your wife and children died in front og you, you don't let people down when they are counting on you with their lives.

Say what you want about me, but I've been through some shit myself. Now go ahead and say it can't be as bad as what they are going through.

Daddy's Beemer break down once on vacation?

In the first days, there were reports that police were breaking windows for the 'looters', to make sure people did not cut themselves on the glass. So they were indeed making themselves useful there. Trouble is, after a few days without food and water, with the locals increasingly likely to shoot at you, you have to wonder at what point you cut your losses. After 5 days or so, many may have simply decided there was no longer any authority to serve. And I can't blame them. It's like an army retreating leaderless and in disarray after a defeat. Chaos takes over.

I think this is one place of several where the amyor of new Orleans really fell down on his job. A leader may know the situation is bleak but he or she is supposed to try and instill confidence in the people and not go on the radio begging for help and saying it's all over.

Here's an interesting excerpt from an article at CNN:

There were similar stories across the city. At the Ritz-Carlton Hotel on Canal Street, Phyllis Patrick said she and other hotel guests were in "dire straits." The hotel has been trying to bring in buses to evacuate them, but she said the Federal Emergency Management Agency "will not let them in."

"I don't believe that we have very much food left at all. We had no lunch today. All we're being given is a glass of water," she said. Off-duty police officers were guarding the hotel with shotguns to protect them from bands of looters outside, she said.


http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/02/katrina.impact/

Now I wonder why off duty New Orleans police officers were guarding a fancy hotel while others stayed on duty round the clock working to rescue people and attemping to maintain law and order in the streets?

Daddy's Beemer break down once on vacation?
Well, first off, my dad is dead, you fucking prick. And second, my family has never been able to afford a "Beemer" So you go ahead with your dumb ass assumptions.

Well, first off, my dad is dead, you fucking prick. And second, my family has never been able to afford a "Beemer" So you go ahead with your dumb ass assumptions. Asshole.
Gladly.

Daddy's Beemer break down once on vacation?
So why don't you tell us about your poor childhood?

Huh? I like Bush. Not everyone here is Anti-Bush.

I truly pity you.

I never claimed to be a victim and I never judged people in a situation I can't imagine being in.

You pity me? I really don't need your pity, partner. Why the hell would I care what you think about my views, when all you can post is " I truly pity you"?

Can you impart to me any sucess Bush has procured in is tenure as President?
Do elaborate, I'm all ears....

I'm quitting this thread before I get banned for saying something dumb to someone dumb.. SEE YA!

So you've decided to withdraw from your thread after you'd finished with the trollish remarks (and you still continue to post)? I'd suggest that you watch what you type, and not post things that you know will purposely upset others.

Everyone else needs to knock it off as well. I'm closing this thread because of the degeneration of a debate, and the continuation of insults.