NationStates Jolt Archive

Frankly, im not sure. They were stupid enough to NOT start packing up and heading out of the city when they heard that the 5th biggest hurricane was heading thier way, and the warning had been given a few months in advance. They're looting places, not for the neccesities of food, water, and warmth, but they are looting T.V.s, DVDs, etc. They're shooting at people randomly with looted guns. They're stealing food from people who need it more than them. Of course, this isn't EVERYONE in New Orleans, but alot of people are doing this.

I don't think YOU deserve help.

Frankly, im not sure. They were stupid enough to NOT start packing up and heading out of the city when they heard that the 5th biggest hurricane was heading thier way, and the warning had been given a few months in advance. They're looting places, not for the neccesities of food, water, and warmth, but they are looting T.V.s, DVDs, etc. They're shooting at people randomly with looted guns. They're stealing food from people who need it more than them. Of course, this isn't EVERYONE in New Orleans, but alot of people are doing this.

so they should be allowed to die because they're stupid and some of them are greedy buggers?

i know lets only save the ones that havent looted,or been stupid,or shot anyone.and of course by time we've sorted all that out chances are all of new orleans will have collapsed.not from the flood,but becasue it will take decades.

ugh

Do The People In New Orleans Deserve Help?

What kind of stupid, mean spirited question is that? Of course they do!

Frankly, im not sure. They were stupid enough to NOT start packing up and heading out of the city when they heard that the 5th biggest hurricane was heading thier way, and the warning had been given a few months in advance.

So, by that logic, no one affected by the hurricane deserves help? Or just the ones in New Orleans? Everybody on the seaboard should have moved to the centre of the USA until it passed? Goddamn, yes. And what about people who live in places which are prone to tornados? GODDAMN IT THEY CHOSE TO LIVE THERE, THE IDIOTS.

Ahem.

They're looting places, not for the neccesities of food, water, and warmth, but they are looting T.V.s, DVDs, etc. They're shooting at people randomly with looted guns. They're stealing food from people who need it more than them. Of course, this isn't EVERYONE in New Orleans, but alot of people are doing this.

SOME people are looting places. Other people aren't. I think you'll find the vast majority aren't, and the ones that are are MAINLY looting for food, water etc. Yes, a few people are stealing goods not necessary for survival, but then you will always get people like that in a rampantly consumerist culture, especially if those people have been at the bottom of the heap for years whilst being fed images of instant gratification.

Ahem.

I have a feeling you did not get the point of this topic... Ritlina meant that the people should have run away when they had the opportunity, and instead they followed their greed and stayed there... that's the human nature, for the most part, and those who are strong enough to fight against it, are truly lucky...

also... people, don't get too offended by the title of this topic... I have a feeling it's only symbolic, because ofcourse they deserve help...

I live far from the States where these things practicly never happen, small amount of pollution, good climate, no terrorism, but still I feel a sense of loss when it happens everywhere else...

take care...

I have a feeling you did not get the point of this topic... Ritlina meant that the people should have run away when they had the opportunity, and instead they followed their greed and stayed there... that's the human nature, for the most part, and those who are strong enough to fight against it, are truly lucky...

also... people, don't get too offended by the title of this topic... I have a feeling it's only symbolic, because ofcourse they deserve help...

I live far from the States where these things practicly never happen, small amount of pollution, good climate, no terrorism, but still I feel a sense of loss when it happens everywhere else...

take care...

oh yes,they stayed in the path of a hurricane that could very well kill them and destroy all their belongings because of greed.i guess they knew there'd be looting so decided it was worth their home getting destroyed so they could do some looting.

I have a feeling you did not get the point of this topic... Ritlina meant that the people should have run away when they had the opportunity, and instead they followed their greed and stayed there... that's the human nature, for the most part, and those who are strong enough to fight against it, are truly lucky......

You are saying that EVERYONE who didn't leave New Orleans was motivated by greed?

Personally, i'd say the motivations were, in order:-
(1) Inability to leave due to poverty
(2) head in the sand mentality
(3) "we can survive this" American frontier style mentality (a good part of the American psyche)
and somewhere at number (456) or so, Greed.

I doubt very much the vast majority of people who stayed there stayed there because they thought "hey! LETS STAY AND LOOT!". In fact, i doubt the vast majority of looters thought that, it was more a case of crimes of opportunity, rather than pre-meditated.

yes the people of new orleans and the rest of the gulf region deserve help.

If I'd only ever gotten breaks I deserved in my life, I'd probably be dead or a bag lady by now. The better question is, what would excuse us from helping others in need if we are able? Nothing that I know of.

You know, people live in society to HELP EACH OTHER. Gods forbid that you ever find yourself in a position of despair, by chance, or by having made a naive mistake, just to see others call you stupid, and say you dont diserve help.

If you consider not helping them, that show what kind of human being you are. I mean, if some dumb fuck that didnt knew how to swim fell on a swimming pool, would you let him drown just because he shouldnt have been near a pool? Perhaps not a dumb fuck, but a 4 year old kid. There are plenty of childreen and elderly in NO. Lets leave them behind? Great reasoning.

Again, may those that say shit like "dont help them" never find themselves in a situation of distress. After all, logically, they would all die before allowing themselves to be helped.

Hopefully, you just started this thread to create a debate and watch it all unfold before you. That you could be serious is disgusting.

This kind of ignorance and lack of empathy is what disgusts me most about this country. People can't understand why this city of nearly 500,000 people, most of whom live below the poverty line, can't just put some gas into their SUVs, toss some bottled spring water in the trunk and take the wife and kids to their summer homes to wait out the storm. They are poor. A level of poor you probably can't fathom. They had no where else to go. Now you question whether to save them from a flooded, sweltering, corpse-infested hell because they "chose to stay"?

i said im not sure, i never said they didnt deserve help.

i said im not sure, i never said they didnt deserve help.
Well, there you go. Now you can be sure.

i said im not sure, i never said they didnt deserve help.

if thats all you can say to defend your statement then i thnk this debate is over.

Frankly, im not sure. They were stupid enough to NOT start packing up and heading out of the city when they heard that the 5th biggest hurricane was heading thier way, and the warning had been given a few months in advance. They're looting places, not for the neccesities of food, water, and warmth, but they are looting T.V.s, DVDs, etc. They're shooting at people randomly with looted guns. They're stealing food from people who need it more than them. Of course, this isn't EVERYONE in New Orleans, but alot of people are doing this.

On top of that, what kind of idiot lives in a place built on swamp land, several thousand miles below sea level, in an area known to be frequented by tropical storms? Sure, it's fun to go to New Orleans (or it was), but to live there?

Still, I'd have to agree with most of the other people. Although I see where you are coming from... and you aren't in the slightest bit "bad" or "evil" for bringing it up, since if you hadn't I would have. It takes guts to voice an opinion like that, especially since it probably crossed the minds of most people when initially presented with the situation.

if thats all you can say to defend your statement then i thnk this debate is over.

Well, how's this, why help the people in New Orleans when we could be helping other people in the country. What makes the victims of avoidable natural disasters so much more endearing then other people stuck in unfortunate situations?

Well, how's this, why help the people in New Orleans when we could be helping other people in the country. What makes the victims of avoidable natural disasters so much more endearing then other people stuck in unfortunate situations?
Take this as the wake up call and help everyone you can.

Take this as the wake up call and help everyone you can.

Take this as a wake up call I recieved when I was 6 years old: You can't.

On top of that, what kind of idiot lives in a place built on swamp land, several thousand miles below sea level, in an area known to be frequented by tropical storms? Sure, it's fun to go to New Orleans (or it was), but to live there?

Still, I'd have to agree with most of the other people. Although I see where you are coming from... and you aren't in the slightest bit "bad" or "evil" for bringing it up, since if you hadn't I would have. It takes guts to voice an opinion like that, especially since it probably crossed the minds of most people when initially presented with the situation.

also, THERE'S A LAKE RIGHT ABOVE THEM WITH A LEVY WHICH IS BARELY HOLDING IT IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously people, THINK ABOUT IT!

You can't.

That's why you need to have priorities (triage, etc).

Do you help the people who didn't avoid or forsee a natural disaster? Do you help the druggies and the fuckups on the streets? Do you help the helpless children and the elderly? Do you help the less intelligent animals and plants? Do you help the ignorant people in 3rd world countries living in squalor? Do you help the people who were caught in freak accidents? Do you help the curious who accidentally maim themselves doing stupid things? Do you help the retarded people or the ones not fit to survive in the first place?

Are any of them "worthy" or "deserving" of help? How much can you really help them?

Take this as a wake up call I recieved when I was 6 years old: You can't.
Yep. You can help everyone you can. Just not more than that. Because you can't do that.

also, THERE'S A LAKE RIGHT ABOVE THEM WITH A LEVY WHICH IS BARELY HOLDING IT IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously people, THINK ABOUT IT!

Well, they didn't know that it was being so poorly maintained... you know, unless they looked into it.

That's why you need to have priorities (triage, etc).

Do you help the people who didn't avoid or forsee a natural disaster? Do you help the druggies and the fuckups on the streets? Do you help the helpless children and the elderly? Do you help the stupid animals and plants? Do you help the ignorant people in 3rd world countries who "have a different culture"? Do you help the people who were caught in freak accidents? Do you help the curious who accidentally maim themselves doing stupid things? Do you help the retarded people or the ones not fit to survive in the first place?

Are any of them "worthy" or "deserving"?

i wish i could get away with saying "nope" without getting a flame or troll report.....

i wish i could get away with saying "nope" without getting a flame or troll report.....

I'm not looking to answer them with "nope." We all have our shortcomings, our faults, our lack of foresight. All I'm saying is that we can't help everyone, and there are so many helpless (and arguable useless/stupid) people that we can't aid them all.

Well, they didn't know that it was being so poorly maintained... you know, unless they looked into it.

It wasnt being poorly maintained. there was something like 500 miles of leevy around that city, about 2-3 city blocks failed total, thats all it takes really when the city is below level without the pumps running but.... The rest held, for all you know the leevys failed because of a flaw in that particular area of land, it might not have been an engineering failer at all....stop making pre judgements.


In any case.....anybody notice a lot of the people they are saving right now seem to have cars underwater next to their house? Just note that everytime you see a heli rescue..look around and youll see pretty new cars (late 90s) underwater....its bullshit those people should of left.

Frankly, im not sure. They were stupid enough to NOT start packing up and heading out of the city when they heard that the 5th biggest hurricane was heading thier way, and the warning had been given a few months in advance. They're looting places, not for the neccesities of food, water, and warmth, but they are looting T.V.s, DVDs, etc. They're shooting at people randomly with looted guns. They're stealing food from people who need it more than them. Of course, this isn't EVERYONE in New Orleans, but alot of people are doing this.


Let me help you a bit with your facts.

1) Katrina was not the 5th biggest hurricane. It was a Category 5 hurricane, meaning it's sustained wind speed was greater than 150 mph.

2) The warning was given a day and a half in advance. It had been speculated that the City of New Orleans would require between 48 and 72 hours to fully evacuate in the event of a storm warning.

3) Analysts in 2002 also determined that between 50,000 and 100,000 New Orleans residents did not have a means of evacuation. Packing up and heading out of the city on foot when a hurricane is approaching is suicide. 200 mph wind gusts will toss you like a rag doll.

4) The vast majority of residents left behind have been complaining about being at the mercy of rapists and criminals. They are the victims of crime and not the perpetrators.

poll added

Frankly, im not sure. They were stupid enough to NOT start packing up and heading out of the city when they heard that the 5th biggest hurricane was heading thier way, and the warning had been given a few months in advance. They're looting places, not for the neccesities of food, water, and warmth, but they are looting T.V.s, DVDs, etc. They're shooting at people randomly with looted guns. They're stealing food from people who need it more than them. Of course, this isn't EVERYONE in New Orleans, but alot of people are doing this.

Everyone deserves help. The city needs help. You need to be more sensitive.

The answer to the question is yes.

Geeze people are stupid. Not all the people that stayed in New Orleans, but the people that blame them for not leaving when four out of five of them don't have a car. And the government in its infinite wisdom/racism (as the vast majority are Black) didn't utilize any mass transportation for evacuation until after the fact, they relied solely on private transportation. They were like, "well, here's a bad hurricane; it'll be here in a few days, so you should get out. If you can't leave, too bad."

It wasnt being poorly maintained.

I'm pretty sure that several reports have come to the surface about there being complaints from engineers and local officials to the government of the lack of maintenance and the possibility of such a disaster occurring from as long ago as 2000.

Geeze people are stupid. Not all the people that stayed in New Orleans, but the people that blame them for not leaving when four out of five of them don't have a car. And the government in its infinite wisdom/racism (as the vast majority are Black) didn't utilize any mass transportation for evacuation until after the fact, they relied solely on private transportation. They were like, "well, here's a bad hurricane; it'll be here in a few days, so you should get out. If you can't leave, too bad."

Nice to see someone who doesn't have facts nor tv footage. Look around at alot of those areas and you'll see....

CARS!!!!! That's right. Alot of them had cars so why didn't they go?

And Achtung45, don't try to play the race card, its already old.

Take this as the wake up call and help everyone you can.
Take this as a wake up call I recieved when I was 6 years old: You can't.

His modus was to help everyone you can. You're implied response was you can't help everyone you can. So your response was paradoxical. If you are capable of helping someone, then you cannot make the excuse that you can't do it. Understand?

So come up with a better excuse please.

also, THERE'S A LAKE RIGHT ABOVE THEM WITH A LEVY WHICH IS BARELY HOLDING IT IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously people, THINK ABOUT IT!
I am so damn tired of this argument.

Let me clue you folks in about something. New Orleans exists because it has to exist, strategically. It's at the mouth of the longest and most navigable river into the central part of the US. It's at the entry point to the waterways of the nation. Stuff doesn't get shipped to most of the country unless New Orleans exists, so that's why it's there, even though it's in a flood-prone area. Throughout the history of Europe's occupation of North America, generals have known that New Orleans was strategically vital to the interests of the region. Jackson defended it ruthlessly in the War of 1812. The Union considered it vital during the Civil War. The Germans had a U-Boat strategy for the Gulf in WWII and the Soviets had it in the top 3 places to nuke in the event of a nuclear war, alongside D.C. and New York. So can we please stop acting like New Orleans is a dumb place for a city. Please.

Alright, the fact is, many of the people there were poor, and they were fucked from the moment the hurricane was announced. My problem isn't so much how they responded when they found out about the hurricane coming, or when it hit, but simply the initial idea to settle down there in the first place.

But once again, I'm not trying to say they don't deserve help (I selected Yes), I'm simply defending Ritlina's point of view and saying that it's not bad to ask this type of question, nor is it "wrong" or "evil." I'm also saying that there are way to many people in the world to help, and such philosophies of helping everyone you can are childish and only lead to disappointment and extreme unhappiness, at least from my experience.

If you are capable of helping someone, then you cannot make the excuse that you can't do it. Understand?

So come up with a better excuse please.

Touche. But it's not an "excuse." I'm saying that you can't help everyone, you can't help everyone you want to help, and even if you help everyone you can, they won't necessarily be "helped" (i.e. their situation/persona improved).

Touche. But it's not an "excuse." I'm saying that you can't help everyone, you can't help everyone you want to help, and even if you help everyone you can, they won't necessarily be "helped" (i.e. their situation/persona improved).
At least you'd be trying.

Maybe this is off topic and not relevant. I think about this story a lot, though and I thought it about when I was watching the looters in New Orleans.
A Zen Master lived the simplest kind of life in a little hut at the foot of a mountain. One evening, while he was away, a thief sneaked into the hut only to find there was nothing in it to steal. The Zen Master returned and found him. "You have come a long way to visit me," he told the prowler, "and you should not return empty handed. Please take my clothes as a gift." The thief was bewildered, but he took the clothes and ran away. The Master sat naked, watching the moon. "Poor fellow," he mused, " I wish I could give him this beautiful moon."

I don't think YOU deserve help.

He/she needs it though.... :p

Maybe this is off topic and not relevant. I think about this story a lot, though and I thought it about when I was watching the looters in New Orleans.
A Zen Master lived the simplest kind of life in a little hut at the foot of a mountain. One evening, while he was away, a thief sneaked into the hut only to find there was nothing in it to steal. The Zen Master returned and found him. "You have come a long way to visit me," he told the prowler, "and you should not return empty handed. Please take my clothes as a gift." The thief was bewildered, but he took the clothes and ran away. The Master sat naked, watching the moon. "Poor fellow," he mused, " I wish I could give him this beautiful moon."

very spiritual

Even though we would all like to see the end of stupid people, we have to help, because they're not all stupid. Some are poor and many didn't think it would be that disasterous. Also, if we don't send help, it will only get worse and it will make the government look bad. :eek: So basically, yes, we have to help. It will be for good people who don't deserve to die.



:mp5: :sniper: :mp5:
The Armed Republic Of Cruel Tyrany

Nice to see someone who doesn't have facts nor tv footage. Look around at alot of those areas and you'll see....

CARS!!!!! That's right. Alot of them had cars so why didn't they go?

And Achtung45, don't try to play the race card, its already old.
Even assuming you have a car, a car doesn't do you much good unless you can 1) afford to put gas in it, 2), you have somewhere to go or have the money to put yourself in a hotel, assuming you can get a room, and 3) you have the money to get back and restart your life, assuming you have anything left to come back to.

You and those like you like to act as though it's real easy to just jump in the car and get the hell out of the way. Let me tell you something--I've been so dirt-poor in the past that I've had to buy the Wal-Mart brand of ramen noodles rather than the expensive Maruchan brand, and I had to buy enough to eat on for a month, because I only had enough money for that--and I had a job. If a hurricane had come during that period of my life, I'd have been fucked, and so would a lot of my friends. There would have been no way for me to evacuate. I didn't have a credit card, and I didn't have a car, so even if I'd have stolen one, I couldn't have gotten far.

And whether you like it or not, Corneliu, race is an integral part of this discussion. If you can't handle that, you better find another thread to propound your odd view of the world in.

Frankly, im not sure. They were stupid enough to NOT start packing up and heading out of the city when they heard that the 5th biggest hurricane was heading thier way, and the warning had been given a few months in advance. <Snip>


Months?

They knew MONTHS in advance?


Shit!



Meteorology really kicks ass these days!



That or ignorance.

Nice to see someone who doesn't have facts nor tv footage. Look around at alot of those areas and you'll see....

CARS!!!!! That's right. Alot of them had cars so why didn't they go?

And Achtung45, don't try to play the race card, its already old.
Wow, a lot of who? All the people that evacuated early? Don't say what I can and can't say in an argument just because you don't like it, alright? Too bad the vast majority still didn't have cars.

And why did you claim I don't have facts when I did, and you yourself don't? That's not presenting a very solid argument. Please show me facts and numbers discrediting what I say, don't just attack me for presenting facts.

I realize the hurricane didnt actually form until a few days before it hit, but meterologists have been predicting it for months, and yes it IS the 5th biggest hurricane, not just a category 5 hurricane.

There is no such thing as a person who is in suffering who does not deserve help.

The poor
The mentally ill
The homeless
The starving
The elderly

All of these people whould get help, no question!

No one is in the position to decide whether these people are 'usefull' or 'worthy' of help.

The idea of killing off those who do not fit into the socially conformist role a society has of people is something that we saw in the Nazi era with their insnae 'eugenics' programme.

Anyone who advocates the killing of of sections of humanity out of spiteful ignorance, despite the world having ENOUGH resources to help everyone, is nothing but a fascist, the stupid idea that the strong should be worshiped and the weak/poor crushed.

It is a question of an unequal distribution of resources that causes the world to have people who are in the poor and negelcted state they are in.

Humans are social animals in that we depend on a wider society to function and exist.

As for the 'greed' of those who were left behind, what greed?

Most of the people in NO who could not leave were to poor to just pack up and go as they don't have the benefit of having a nice suburban second home or a nice holiday beach home in the Hamptons or Palm Beach. If you rely on a shitty minimum wage job, barley have enough money to pay your rent, let alone get another second home, and have a relative/loved one who you have to look after who is ill but cannot afford 24 hr. care, do you expect it to be easy to just pack up and go in 24 hrs!

NO had a million people, logistically it would be impossible to get everyone out anyways.

But one from of greed that did show itself during this disaster was corporate greed, namely by transit companies.

All coaches/buses STILL charged people the FULL PRICE to leave NO even in the last hours before Katrina hit.

The airline companies took their planes out of NO airport to save them, with most of the planes empty, the least they could of done was give people a flight out of there.

But as usual those who own these companies would rather not save these people as they were still only concerned about their multi-million/billion dollar profits.

As for those levvys, there was a RECENT cut in their maintenience budget and that is a fact, not some sort of speculation.

The US governments response has been to little to late!

From the Mayor's office right up to the White House, failure all round and now we have to watch endless TV coverage of politicians from both parties make lame excuses, don't expect real explinations, for their failure and they will use their airtime to try and woo people with their superficial spin so that they can justify their TAX FUNDED wages and their being in office.

On the issue of looting, I condemm ALL looters who take products from PEOPLE, whether in their homes or in the refugee centres.

I think it's stupid for people to take consumer goods as they are mostly electrical goods and there is NO power in NO anymore!

However, ALL people in NO have a RIGHT IMO, to take all food, water, medicine, clothing and blankets from all shops they see, given the lack of a proper response by the authorities and given the need for a human to survive is MUCH GREATER than any concept of private property, espc. company property which is insured and will be chucked when they go back into business anyways.

I realize the hurricane didnt actually form until a few days before it hit, but meterologists have been predicting it for months, and yes it IS the 5th biggest hurricane, not just a category 5 hurricane.
So is that why Bush cut $71.2 million from the budget of the New Orleans Corps of Engineers in June, which meant "a study to deternime ways to protect the city from a Cat 5 hurricane ha[d] been shelved" (among other things, like strengthening the levees)? Wow, Bush is more evil than I thought.

There is no such thing as a person who is in suffering who does not deserve help.

The poor
The mentally ill
The homeless
The starving
The elderly

All of these people whould get help, no question!



http://www.michaelmoore.com/_images/splash/aaron_broussard.mov

*warning* you may shed a tear when he talks about granny.

This is probably addressed at me, and even if it isn't, I feel compelled to answer it and solidify the balance and mergence of my nihilism, cynicism, and liberalism.

There is no such thing as a person who is in suffering who does not deserve help.

The poor
The mentally ill
The homeless
The starving
The elderly

All of these people whould get help, no question!*
*That is arguably true, yes. While I have some hesitation with some ("mentally ill" and "elderly"), I can safely say that that response comes from my initial triage-like response to who I feel should receive support.

No one is in the position to decide whether these people are 'usefull' or 'worthy' of help.*
*Is one in a position to decide whether someone is 'useful'? Yes. 'Worthy of help'? No. The aforementioned whom I had trepidations of assenting to empathize with are arguably less useful to society as a whole if certain people must be chosen to assist out of necessity. This arguably could translate into how 'worthy' they are as well, though I'll lay off on that point as it is subjective.

The idea of killing off* those who do not fit into the socially conformist role a society has of people is something that we saw in the Nazi era with their insnae 'eugenics' programme.** Anyone who advocates the killing of of sections of humanity out of spiteful ignorance* despite the world having ENOUGH resources to help everyone*** is nothing but a fascist, the stupid idea that the strong should be worshiped and the weak/poor crushed.* It is a question of an unequal distribution of resources that causes the world to have people who are in the poor and negelcted state they are in.**** Humans are social animals in that we depend on a wider society to function and exist.***

*Lack of assistance isn't killing off. Besides, noone in this thread said that. And while I occasionally wish I could off groups of people who are particularly oppressive or idiotic (yes, it all sounds so hypocritical doesn't it?), that wouldn't be very nice of me, nor would I have the [lack of] heart to do so.

**We also see it all the time in nature. Nature, though not as idiotically biased and oppressive of Nazi or Stalinist regime is still as harsh and brutal (though not as cruel).

***That's probably not true.

****That's true, although there are other factors involved, namely, human behavior.

Heartless people out there! Did any of you ask the Tsunami victims if they deserved help? NO. Most of these people are elderly, mothers with young children and others who for whatever reason COULD NOT get out!! Just because you see cars doesnt mean they were available or that they had the money to get out of town and pay for a hotel and lodging. That is why they went to the superdome. THey knew it was bad and did the best they could to protect themselves. Now for stealing food I understand and I bet the stores do as well but the greedy jerks..well they are getting theirs now..6gun toting assholes shot dead today by law enforcement. Nobody griped about the Big Easy when its Madi Gras time, yall come down here get drunk and show titties for beads and enjoy the culture but when the going gets tough butt munchies out there think nothing better to do but dump on these poor individuals who have nothing left to lose! Here is a funny but serious link I found here yesterday for those who havent seen it: NEUROTICALLY YOURS CARTOON HURRICANE REPORT http://www.illwillpress.com/kat.html It sort of says it all.

if they could of got out but didn't they don't deserve our sympathy but our help!

look at this with cold hearted logic the people there make money so if they do we....lose money

if they could of got out but didn't they don't deserve our sympathy but our help!

look at this with cold hearted logic the people there make money so if they do we....lose money

Wha? I don't understand what you just said.

Heartless people out there! Did any of you ask the Tsunami victims if they deserved help?

I did. I also did with 9/11. And all of the other disasters that reporters have field days with. We only care about other people when it's televised or it's a holiday, don't we?

The bottom line is, 2.3 children are being born every second (I love/hate that statistic), and with 6.3 billion people and climbing we can't help everyone all the time. A few thousand shaved off here or there, whether in some trumped up disaster or in the day to day hell they may live in, is something humanity is never willing to except... Nor am I.

But we have to be willing, like the poll starter and some other posters, to be able to examine and weigh the value of people's lives given the amount of resources we have (I'm talking globally, not the U.S.)

Most of them did not have cars. Most of them could not afford the bus to get out. They couldn't get out. And they loot because they've had nothing their whole lives and they finally get a chance to live large. And besides, most of the stuff would have been dumped. I can't figure out why they would steal plug-in electronics though.

i said im not sure, i never said they didnt deserve help.
:headbang:
the fact that it even CROSSED YOUr MIND they might not deserve help is bad enough. they're human too, i think that's almost reason enough. And IF that's not enough, consider that they are the poorest part of society, and therefore deserve the help of the more fortunate. And of course, New Orleans as a city has one of the richest music histories in the world, being the origin of so much: jazz, the blues, etc. Apparently someone agreed with you, which is apalling... :mad:

***That's probably not true.


The resources exist. There are, what, 1 million people in NO? let's be generous and say 2 million? Bill Gates has $48 billion. He could give each person in NO $10,000 and still have 28 bil.

So is that why Bush cut $71.2 million from the budget of the New Orleans Corps of Engineers in June, which meant "a study to deternime ways to protect the city from a Cat 5 hurricane ha[d] been shelved" (among other things, like strengthening the levees)? Wow, Bush is more evil than I thought.

First let me say, I am not now nor have I ever been a supporter of the Bush administration. I am, however, quite tired of all the finger-pointing. Yes the budget was cut in June, but as you said, it was for a "study". The real shame is that they had 40 years to learn from the mistakes of the 1965 Hurricane Betsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Betsy) And I don't evne feel like counting how many Presidents or Governors, or Mayors that city has seen since then.

Hurricane Katrina hit right here first (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Buras-Triumph,+Louisiana&ll=29.950175,-89.664917&spn=1.620963,2.050873&num=10&start=0&hl=en) (you can left click and drag the map to see the affected areas or change it to satalite and zoom in or out). It dammaged 90,000 sq. miles, roughly the size of the U.K.

Whether the people were too poor to leave or just chose to "ride it out" makes no difference now. The city is virtually dead and unlivable and will be for months or maybe years. So, yes the people of New Orleans deserve our help. If someone here doesn't think so, tell that to the thousands of children that had no say in the matter of evacuation.

Frankly, im not sure. They were stupid enough to NOT start packing up and heading out of the city when they heard that the 5th biggest hurricane was heading thier way, and the warning had been given a few months in advance. They're looting places, not for the neccesities of food, water, and warmth, but they are looting T.V.s, DVDs, etc. They're shooting at people randomly with looted guns. They're stealing food from people who need it more than them. Of course, this isn't EVERYONE in New Orleans, but alot of people are doing this.
Yeah, those stupid poor people, who didn't have enough money to buy cars and gas. Stupid, stupid poor people. They should have planned ahead and been born into richer families. Stupid poor people.

The resources exist. There are, what, 1 million people in NO? let's be generous and say 2 million? Bill Gates has $48 billion. He could give each person in NO $10,000 and still have 28 bil.


lol but then he would fall behind Warren Buffet, who is worth roughly $44billiion.

I did. I also did with 9/11. And all of the other disasters that reporters have field days with. We only care about other people when it's televised or it's a holiday, don't we?

The bottom line is, 2.3 children are being born every second (I love/hate that statistic), and with 6.3 billion people and climbing we can't help everyone all the time. A few thousand shaved off here or there, whether in some trumped up disaster or in the day to day hell they may live in, is something humanity is never willing to except... Nor am I.

But we have to be willing, like the poll starter and some other posters, to be able to examine and weigh the value of people's lives given the amount of resources we have (I'm talking globally, not the U.S.)

Yes but it would be a whole different kettle of fish if it were someone YOU loved that got trapped down there. HUMAN LIFE is precious no matter if you are in the US or in a third world country and they should all be helped no matter where they are. Babies have died here, mothers ,fathers, grandparents they arent just statistics they mattered to other other people and should be just another number. Using up resources is just some green yuppie puppy argument -proving that they care about the environment by applauding decreases in the population by whatever means. So by that argument we shouldnt provide medicine to sick people-let them die and suffer -it will reduce the population after all...isnt that the most important thing!

Frankly, im not sure. They were stupid enough to NOT start packing up and heading out of the city when they heard that the 5th biggest hurricane was heading thier way, and the warning had been given a few months in advance. They're looting places, not for the neccesities of food, water, and warmth, but they are looting T.V.s, DVDs, etc. They're shooting at people randomly with looted guns. They're stealing food from people who need it more than them. Of course, this isn't EVERYONE in New Orleans, but alot of people are doing this.

Moste of the people are poor donte have a car so thay code.

:headbang:
the fact that it even CROSSED YOUr MIND they might not deserve help is bad enough.

It crosses people's minds all the time not to give money to homeless people on the street...

The resources exist. There are, what, 1 million people in NO? let's be generous and say 2 million? Bill Gates has $48 billion. He could give each person in NO $10,000 and still have 28 bil.

I'm talking about the world in general.

Frankly, im not sure. They were stupid enough to NOT start packing up and heading out of the city when they heard that the 5th biggest hurricane was heading thier way, and the warning had been given a few months in advance. They're looting places, not for the neccesities of food, water, and warmth, but they are looting T.V.s, DVDs, etc. They're shooting at people randomly with looted guns. They're stealing food from people who need it more than them. Of course, this isn't EVERYONE in New Orleans, but alot of people are doing this.they deserve help. everyone does, but when that help gets to them depends on how they behave.

Frankly, im not sure. They were stupid enough to NOT start packing up and heading out of the city when they heard that the 5th biggest hurricane was heading thier way, and the warning had been given a few months in advance. They're looting places, not for the neccesities of food, water, and warmth, but they are looting T.V.s, DVDs, etc. They're shooting at people randomly with looted guns. They're stealing food from people who need it more than them. Of course, this isn't EVERYONE in New Orleans, but alot of people are doing this.

You risk your life every time you get into a car. If you get into a horrific accident, I guess we should all let you bleed out, huh?

Using up resources is just some green yuppie puppy argument -proving that they care about the environment by applauding decreases in the population by whatever means.

What the hell are you talking about? Spouting some random anti-environmentalist conspiracy crap won't get you anywhere. Noone values the lives of animals more than people (unless they are literally brain damaged), it's biological and evolutionarily antithetical.

My foremost motivation is not to help the environment (though it's still important), but to help mankind. You want poverty, disease, pollution, starvation, under education, wars, etc. to stop? Lower the population. It's highly probably that people will be able to live longer when there are less people that need to be provided for and more attention and care can be given to individuals. And while this last point is entirely baseless (besides speculation and biblical nonsense), the other points still stand.

So no, better we let down Agent Orange and see who's standing than let people die to save some brainless trees.

So by that argument we shouldnt provide medicine to sick people-let them die and suffer -it will reduce the population after all...isnt that the most important thing!

I'm not advocating that (despite my tongue-in-cheek Agent Orange comment). I'm just saying that there isn't enough to help everyone...

No they don't. You know who else doesn't deserve help? Starving children in Africa... I saw this one on TV the other day steal a loaf of bread to feed his starving family, that's lotting that is! Not to mention cancer patients and little babies!

For those who know me from my previous posts in other threads know that I have a tendancy to be a bit harsh and overbearing --- but even I think the people in New Orleans deserve help! It is the right thing to do.

Just because the people there did not think to leave (assuming they could on their own) even means that they need MORE help like:

1) Hey you! Do you want to live in a hell hole for six months without food and water? Get on the f##$% helicopter!!

2) Oh so you want to stay? Here is your menu: Cholera, Malaria, West Nile Virus, Infection (choose two)

3) We are here to rescue you. This is your one relief effort, refuse this one time and we will never be back before you die of thirst and starvation!

Also, what people need to keep in mind is that there is literally one highway out of New Orleans. One end of the highway takes you to Biloxi...not a good idea to go that way. So that leaves you with one way to go. It's a highway that's on a bridge over the swamp. There's no way off this highway, as I said it's a swamp. This highway gets jammed on regular days, when it isn't rush hour. Imagine the traffic jam that there was this time.

but when that help gets to them depends on how they behave.

seems that it would be much more likely to depend on how others behave. it's not like 100,000 people took a shot at a helicopter or pinned down a number of rescue workers. or dragged their feet on coordinating a mass comandeering of all sorts of supplies and transportation.

Frankly, im not sure. They were stupid enough to NOT start packing up and heading out of the city when they heard that the 5th biggest hurricane was heading thier way, and the warning had been given a few months in advance. They're looting places, not for the neccesities of food, water, and warmth, but they are looting T.V.s, DVDs, etc. They're shooting at people randomly with looted guns. They're stealing food from people who need it more than them.
It looks like 90% of the people on this poll disagree with you and rightly so. :eek:

Of course, this isn't EVERYONE in New Orleans, but alot of people are doing this.
How many is "a lot"? Is it 5%, 10%, 20%? Of course you don't know the answer, so the logical thing would be to send help for those who desperately need it?

Do they deserve help? Possibly not. Should they get help? Hell yes!

And that's all I have to say on this issue.

Hopefully, you just started this thread to create a debate and watch it all unfold before you. That you could be serious is disgusting.

Actually the first post is *questionable*, and if a moderator hasn't reviewed this thread, I certainly hope they do.

There are points that are certainly going to have differences of opinion, but the *timing* for some of these opinions and how they are stated troubles me as well.

For the record: my opinion is an immediate YES.

The city hasn't always been vunerable to hurricanes nor has the population been so large that everybody *could* foresee this. Scientists and engineers, yes ... but poor people, no way. We need to help them.

This kind of ignorance and lack of empathy is what disgusts me most about this country. People can't understand why this city of nearly 500,000 people, most of whom live below the poverty line, can't just put some gas into their SUVs, toss some bottled spring water in the trunk and take the wife and kids to their summer homes to wait out the storm. They are poor. A level of poor you probably can't fathom. They had no where else to go. Now you question whether to save them from a flooded, sweltering, corpse-infested hell because they "chose to stay"?


I question those that did get out and where they went and who helped them get out of harms way.... You say 500000 in New Orleans... You can figure from New Oleans and all other areas evacuatied they had that many people to relocate so who helped them.. Those that may have just had the SUV but no summer home to go to. The figures of those who stayed in New Orleans is not even 100000 as they figure 1/5 stayed.. That means just out of New Orleans 400000 evacuated, add all other areas and 100000 becomes a group of people who made a wrong choice and stayed. The state planed for those that evacuated and had shelters and supplies for them... outside the danger zone... When the cameras started rolling in New Orleans resources were moved to New Orleans... Resources that were set up at shelters for those who evacuated.

Also has anyone heard anything on conditions at the shelters where these early evacutees are... Bet not because not worth time on the news... as cameras had to show poor fools who made a wrong choice and cried... Thus politicians ran to them and where the cameras were..

That means just out of New Orleans 400000 evacuated, add all other areas and 100000 becomes a group of people who made a wrong choice and stayed. There are two reasons that people stayed. One is that they were elderly, or had elderly relatives and pets. The shelters simply weren't equipped to handle the elderly or pets, so people chose to stay behind and make sure they didn't dehydrate. The other reason is that they were literally unable to get to the shelters, due to lack of transportation.


The state planed for those that evacuated and had shelters and supplies for them... outside the danger zone... When the cameras started rolling in New Orleans resources were moved to New Orleans... Resources that were set up at shelters for those who evacuated.

Also has anyone heard anything on conditions at the shelters where these early evacutees are... Again, the shelters are of little help to people who can't afford gas to get there, and also to people who the shelters weren't equipped to handle.

Frankly, im not sure. They were stupid enough to NOT start packing up and heading out of the city when they heard that the 5th biggest hurricane was heading thier way, and the warning had been given a few months in advance. They're looting places, not for the neccesities of food, water, and warmth, but they are looting T.V.s, DVDs, etc. They're shooting at people randomly with looted guns. They're stealing food from people who need it more than them. Of course, this isn't EVERYONE in New Orleans, but alot of people are doing this.

Then why judge the city based on one or two fools?

What you're saying is completely absurd. Let's take a look:

Frankly, im not sure. They were stupid enough to NOT start packing up and heading out of the city when they heard that the 5th biggest hurricane was heading thier way and the warning had been given a few months in advance.

I look on NOAA fairly regulary round this time of year since my Aunty lives in Nassau. I don't remember there being a hurricane warning or watch for New Orleans a few moths ago. Hurricanes are very unpredictable. Even as it passed over New Orleans it went in a direction that noone expected. It's near-ilpossible to predict tomorrow's weather, let alone in a few months.

They're looting places, not for the neccesities of food, water, and warmth, but they are looting T.V.s, DVDs, etc.

Not everyone is stealing TVs in New Orleans. Look at all those people in the stadium. Thay had nothing. Nothing. No TVs Hi-Fis or DVD players. Believe it or not, New Orleans probably isn't a city of thieves. Just the stupid few, as uaual.

They're shooting at people randomly with looted guns.

Extreme liberal gun laws coming home to roost, I'm afraid. I personally think a few less gun shops would make the world a better place.

They're stealing food from people who need it more than them. Of course, this isn't EVERYONE in New Orleans, but alot of people are doing this.

WHO needs it more than they do? The rich accross the rest of the country so there's more money to compensate for higher oil prices? Please. These people are starving. There are pregnant mothers, old ladies. Children. They need all the food they can get.

Of course, this isn't EVERYONE in New Orleans, but alot of people are doing this.

Then why let the rest suffer?

What the hell are you talking about? Spouting some random anti-environmentalist conspiracy crap won't get you anywhere. Noone values the lives of animals more than people (unless they are literally brain damaged), it's biological and evolutionarily antithetical.

My foremost motivation is not to help the environment (though it's still important), but to help mankind. You want poverty, disease, pollution, starvation, under education, wars, etc. to stop? Lower the population. It's highly probably that people will be able to live longer when there are less people that need to be provided for and more attention and care can be given to individuals. And while this last point is entirely baseless (besides speculation and biblical nonsense), the other points still stand.

So no, better we let down Agent Orange and see who's standing than let people die to save some brainless trees.



I'm not advocating that (despite my tongue-in-cheek Agent Orange comment). I'm just saying that there isn't enough to help everyone...
So basically we shouldnt do anything at all then? Even with the vast resources we have and are continuing to get from even Cuba offered us assistance. The best way to reduce population is to promote birth control- just of curiosity do you support China's baby murdering policy ((yes they do murder babies at birth)) as a form of population control? These people are here now and we cant just ignore their suffering. Apparently we can help them because the food and water has gotten there and the city is being drained and hopefully the levees will eventually be repaired and the Big Easy will return.

Frankly, im not sure. They were stupid enough to NOT start packing up and heading out of the city when they heard that the 5th biggest hurricane was heading thier way, and the warning had been given a few months in advance. They're looting places, not for the neccesities of food, water, and warmth, but they are looting T.V.s, DVDs, etc. They're shooting at people randomly with looted guns. They're stealing food from people who need it more than them. Of course, this isn't EVERYONE in New Orleans, but alot of people are doing this.
they don't need help by what you mean. but they need mental help since they're doing all that.

I have a better question; does the cold-hearted person who started this poll NEED help.

Frankly, im not sure. They were stupid enough to NOT start packing up and heading out of the city when they heard that the 5th biggest hurricane was heading thier way, and the warning had been given a few months in advance. They're looting places, not for the neccesities of food, water, and warmth, but they are looting T.V.s, DVDs, etc. They're shooting at people randomly with looted guns. They're stealing food from people who need it more than them. Of course, this isn't EVERYONE in New Orleans, but alot of people are doing this.

I hope for Ritlina that she was only flamebaiting.

Even though we would all like to see the end of stupid people, we have to help, because they're not all stupid. Some are poor and many didn't think it would be that disasterous. Also, if we don't send help, it will only get worse and it will make the government look bad. :eek: So basically, yes, we have to help. It will be for good people who don't deserve to die.


As of now pretty much all of New Orleanders are officially poor. Because it was a levee breaches that caused flooding, insurance companies will argue that only flood insurance should cover the damage. They pulled this off successfully in Western North Carolina last year with hurricane Ivan, and I guarantee they'll try it again.

Since almost nobody has flood insurance, all that destroyed property in the 80% of New Orleans that flooded will be a financial loss. For most people that means they lose everything they had in life. Very sad, especially for old people.

Thinking that they do't deserve help is like this: "I only help those who help themselves."

Perhaps the most selfish and inhumane thing a person can belive in.

By that logic, you shouldn't help the street musician, or the homeless Vietnam veteran.

ok,
first of all: i think they shouldnt for one reason: they were going to have a gay estival (wich i know bout so dont say they werent) where the gays go outside and have their 'fun' in the streets.
however: some just dont have the cash to go get out of there ...
and the looting? that happens after every major disaster.

there is a degree of callousness in the initial post that really irks me... see the thread I just started "What is means to be poor"!

ok,
first of all: i think they shouldnt for one reason: they were going to have a gay estival (wich i know bout so dont say they werent) where the gays go outside and have their 'fun' in the streets.
however: some just dont have the cash to go get out of there ...
and the looting? that happens after every major disaster.

Wow, nice post, Hitler. :rolleyes:

Ritlina
You couldn't possibly be as STUPID as you sound!
Some people didn't leave because they couldnt leave. I dont know your financial status, but some people cant afford to just up and leave. some people dont even have vehicles. Dont try to punish them for this disaster; this is not their fault. Are you a republican? If our STUPID president Bush had gotten the problems fixed they would have homes. However most people who live in that area didnt vote for him anyway. He knows that and It appears for this reason he is not helping them as much as he could. I think they should have been helped a long time ago. It didnt take this long to help the tsunami victims.Anyway i do believe they should be helped; especially since i have a lot of family down there.

Frankly, im not sure. They were stupid enough to NOT start packing up and heading out of the city when they heard that the 5th biggest hurricane was heading thier way, and the warning had been given a few months in advance. They're looting places, not for the neccesities of food, water, and warmth, but they are looting T.V.s, DVDs, etc. They're shooting at people randomly with looted guns. They're stealing food from people who need it more than them. Of course, this isn't EVERYONE in New Orleans, but alot of people are doing this.

Just read O'Reilly commentary, you sound just like him. Social Darwinist eh? Those who are stupid deserve to die? Those who are stupid and poor deserve to die even more? Sad.

yes they do, to rebuilt the city and make New Orleans the great city it was again.

Indeed they were stupid/uninformed.

But they are American citizens, and some are foreign nationals. I'm only glad you aren't in charge of the already incompetent FEMA. No one would receive help with your logic, in any natural disaster area, because they could have packed up months ago. Screw the people is all you sound like.

Since almost nobody has flood insurance, all that destroyed property in the 80% of New Orleans that flooded will be a financial loss. For most people that means they lose everything they had in life. Very sad, especially for old people.

There is speculation that some (certainly not all) of the fires are deliberately being set in order to recover insurance due to a cause being fire related.