NationStates Jolt Archive

I do regularly post anti-American and anti-Bush messages, and possess an extensive reportoire of such arguments and sentiments, however, I am intruiged as to other such logically progressive arguments, and would like to formulate the definitive anti and pro american argument thread. Enjoy....

Is this politics, people, culture or what?

I have to say that Chris has probably opened a nasty can of worms here...

I'm not touching this thread with a 10 metre pole.

I don't intend to, I'm just tired of every thread with the slightest relevance to the USA devolving into a tirade of pro and anti-american sentiments, surely correlating all such opinions in one thread is preferably to them being repeated ad naueam in every other thread?

I use to blame the USA because they say one thing and do the other. They talk about democracy, freedom, peace and justice but they (even when they have more) only choose between two candidates.

In the past elections, the candidates were a drunk, ex-cocaine addict, proffesional lier, that hopes to control all the media in a Putin/Chavez style -even when he blames them-; or his University friend.

They say "freedom", but they like to put their friends and employees in the heads of different governments (look Afganisthan, Panama, Cuba, Chile...); to control tighter those countries.

They say "peace", but they love war and weapons.

They say "justice", but their own citizens live divided. A disaster happened in New York, where the money IS. A disaster happened in New Orleans, where the money is not. After NY, the president acted fast. After NO, the president didn't.

I do regularly post anti-American and anti-Bush messages, and possess an extensive reportoire of such arguments and sentiments, however, I am intruiged as to other such logically progressive arguments, and would like to formulate the definitive anti and pro american argument thread. Enjoy....

I like America. I hate Bush. Bush sucks. Cock.

There are alot of things i like about America: people(most), currency, etc.
But there are also plenty of things i don't like: Gay-Bashing, neo-conservatisms power in the country, history of attrocities and other bad things (westward expansion, slavery, and, ofcourse, all those wars!).

But as i always say, a country isn't a piece of land, it's a people.

America, you're :cool:.

**Understanding the USA as a 'whole', an entity.

Bush generally sucks. Of course, Bush =/= America (for the nth time, I suppose :p ).

I like the US, first of all because I live here, second because it's got one of the best economies and the highest earnings potential in the world (Liech./Lux. data is exaggerated).

I despise the things mentioned by Killaly, but I remember that every country in the world has done terrible things at some time, and so I don't condemn us as the sole abuser.

Overall, I like the US.

Pretty pointless question in a way. What about America? I don't think you can fully hate or love a country, objectively. All have their good and bad bits.

I like America. I hate Bush. Bush sucks. Cock.

There are alot of things i like about America: people(most), currency, etc.
But there are also plenty of things i don't like: Gay-Bashing, neo-conservatisms power in the country, history of attrocities and other bad things (westward expansion, slavery, and, ofcourse, all those wars!).

But as i always say, a country isn't a piece of land, it's a people.

America, you're :cool:.

I take my hat off to you sair (or madam :p )

Bush generally sucks. Of course, Bush =/= America (for the nth time, I suppose :p ).

I like the US, first of all because I live here, second because it's got one of the best economies and the highest earnings potential in the world (Liech./Lux. data is exaggerated).

I despise the things mentioned by Killaly, but I remember that every country in the world has done terrible things at some time, and so I don't condemn us as the sole abuser.

Overall, I like the US.

Yes, but that every country has done terrible things, is not a justification to do it!!! It is a reason to NOT join the club!

Justifying the one's abuses on others' acts places you at the same level! You can't say your difference is that you like peace and freedom and later go out and kill people "because other countries do it, too".

*runs for cover before the thread bursts into flames*

I remember before the fall of communism USA was the greatest country in the world to us ordinary Croatians. America was a synonym 4 freedom and prosperity

And now with all the global warning caused mainly by US which uses half of the world oil supply. Moronic Bush wars and terrorist paranoia which only helps bush and the terrorist's. America is a land of fat ,stupid(yes we have a better education system) people. and most of all - we are witnesses that american democracy failed in the first bush election

America now is a symbol for paranoia, stupidity(look at the prez), and the rule of money as opposed to law and consumerism which is destroying the planet.

There have been an awful lot of uncivilised and brutal superpowers throughout history and for all Americas faults, its not one of them. Sure their foreign and economic policy favours Americans, did anyone honestly expect otherwise?!?!? But they are a working democracy and they actively try and promote democracy, freedom and human rights in the world. People would complain whatever they did. It has problems, but better the US than the Soviet Union.

There have been an awful lot of uncivilised and brutal superpowers throughout history and for all Americas faults, its not one of them.

Sure? Look my 'similarities with Rome' thread.

But they are a working democracy and they actively try and promote democracy, freedom and human rights in the world. People would complain whatever they did. It has problems, but better the US than the Soviet Union.

You are a working democracy with the media and rights more restricted everyday, that instaures YOUR model of democracy using brute force. About freedom, I've talked in this thread; and, about human rights, take a look on Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib.

And, for me, the US and the USSR, are equal. Bloody empires.

You are a working democracy with the media and rights more restricted everyday

You can make that statement but you're gonna have to justify it with some facts before I'll accept it. Quote your sources or admit to just repeating mindless anti American bigotry.


And, for me, the US and the USSR, are equal. Bloody empires.

Yes, because we all remember the time Bush had Al Gore killed by a pickaxe to the head.... That you can make that statement without seeing it's idiocy astounds me. One of them had unelected leaders who governed through using the military against their own people, using secret police to kill political opponents and having mass purges, the other doesn't. I'll leave you to guess which is which.

Basically it has become cool to be anti-American, even if you have no real reason to be. Tricky to fight popular culture. You'll just have to ride it out. :p

Well, I am moderately anti-American. But what I hate is people who just make random assertions with no facts given because they think it makes them smart. It doesn't! If you can make a reasonable argument with documented sources for your statements i'll respect you for it. If the best you can manage is "America sux cos Bush is nasty and likes war" then you demonstrate nothing but your own stupidity and submission to percieved popular myths.

R-P;

No one of your media investigated the veracity of your government's asseverations of the MDW present on Iraq. Now you've got the surprise in your hands.

Somebody like Pat Robertson can ask for assasinations, without any problem. At least in Spain, it would be punishable as "apology of murder". If a communist had his own TV program... er... could a communist have his own TV program? And, without being reported by the FBI? Really?

And, I remember when JFK was killed, and your plural media said the same. While the USSR existed, the FBI also looked for suspects. You hadn't mass purgues, but you had racial discrimination. And don't make this a USA vs. USSR thread; the USSR is over!

Tactical Grace; being anti-american (not for people, but for the country acts) is not a question of coolness, I don't know if in your country is; but any spaniard that knows a little history of his country HAS REASONS to blame the USA, since the devolution of the Lousiana to France near 1800 due to the USA pressure. Or the USA support for the rebel armies in Phillipines, Cuba, and other places. Or the Maine affaire, and subsequent war resulting in the last chapter of our Empire following your doctrine "America for the Americans" (BTW, while you looked somewhere while the UK took the Falklands; and both the UK and France owned many caribbean Islands), or your support and legitimation of Franco.

As I say, TG; those are the reasons why the US is most disliked in Spain than in, for example, any other EU country.

Yes, but that every country has done terrible things, is not a justification to do it!!! It is a reason to NOT join the club!

Justifying the one's abuses on others' acts places you at the same level! You can't say your difference is that you like peace and freedom and later go out and kill people "because other countries do it, too".

It's not a justification, just a way of eliminating the attitude that Europe is morally superior to the US, or vice versa. Too much Anti-Americanism (specifically against the nation, not the Admin.) is due to this condescending sense of superiority. The US has done terrible things we should not, and are not proud of, but we have to remember that it's not a uniquely US thing. It's just a way to show the US isn't alone in its immoral actions.

It's not a justification, just a way of eliminating the attitude that Europe is morally superior to the US, or vice versa. Too much Anti-Americanism is due to this condescending sense of superiority.

As I say, it is not a question of superiority or false superiority.

As I say, it is not a question of superiority or false superiority.

The only way any nation is superior to another is by the degree of political/civil freedom its peole have, and the effort they make to ensure it and defend it. Anything else is denying the past. I am ashamed at the US's actions when it harms others unfairly, as much as any other in the world.

Anti-americanism is short sighted. American nationalism is equally short sighted, even if you call it patriotism.

R-P;

No one of your media investigated the veracity of your government's asseverations of the MDW present on Iraq. Now you've got the surprise in your hands.

Somebody like Pat Robertson can ask for assasinations, without any problem. At least in Spain, it would be punishable as "apology of murder". If a communist had his own TV program... er... could a communist have his own TV program? And, without being reported by the FBI? Really?

And, I remember when JFK was killed, and your plural media said the same. While the USSR existed, the FBI also looked for suspects. You hadn't mass purgues, but you had racial discrimination. And don't make this a USA vs. USSR thread; the USSR is over!

Tactical Grace; being anti-american (not for people, but for the country acts) is not a question of coolness, I don't know if in your country is; but any spaniard that knows a little history of his country HAS REASONS to blame the USA, since the devolution of the Lousiana to France near 1800 due to the USA pressure. Or the USA support for the rebel armies in Phillipines, Cuba, and other places. Or the Maine affaire, and subsequent war resulting in the last chapter of our Empire following your doctrine "America for the Americans" (BTW, while you looked somewhere while the UK took the Falklands; and both the UK and France owned many caribbean Islands), or your support and legitimation of Franco.

As I say, TG; those are the reasons why the US is most disliked in Spain than in, for example, any other EU country.

Well, I'm not sure where to start in criticising that. I'd start with the spelling but seeing as you're foreign you can't be expected to have perfect English. Also I doubt you'd have noticed the nuances of spelling that reveal me to be writing Commonwealth English rather than US English so all the "your"s you used seem somewhat inappropriate. Anyway, yes a communist could, freedom of speech is held sacrosanct in America. They would probably get a lot of complaints but that isn't the issue. And basing your hatred of modern day America on the events of the 1800s does seem a little punitive to me, does anyone else think so? Perhaps you could move on, or were you personally affected by the devolution of the Lousiana to France? And the US has supported anti-Communist counter insurgencies around the world, and thats unquestionably a good thing. Name the Communist state that has a good civil rights record. Russia, China, Cambodia, all killed far more people than Hitler did, yet you object to US prevention of similar occurances? Further more, my point was never that the US was a perfect state, simply that it was a greatly preferable superpower to a number of alternatives. Oh, and for the record, Britain held the Fawklands long before the founding of Argentina, the people of the Fawklands are British and wish to remain so, it is not within Argentinian teritorial waters, it is a part of Britain and the only invasion of the Fawklands that has taken place was when the Argentines did an unjustified surprise attack on them. So in short, get your facts right..... and your spelling.

erm.... I meant Falklands. Man thats embarassing after complaining at your spelling.... Guess I'm gonna have to blame it on tiredness.

Anti-americanism is short sighted. American nationalism is equally short sighted, even if you call it patriotism.

There is a difference between patriotism and nationalism (although these days the line is increasingly blurred). Patriotism is pride in your nation's institutions, culture and history. However, it is not blind to the wrong in the past and does not presume superiority over others. Nationalism is blind patriotism with the belief you are superior to all others.

The only way any nation is superior to another is by the degree of political/civil freedom its peole have, and the effort they make to ensure it and defend it.

I don't want to appear as apologist of the moral superiority, but in Spain gays, lesbians and transexuals can marry, and people can smoke wherever they want.

Well, I'm not sure where to start in criticising that. I'd start with the spelling but seeing as you're foreign you can't be expected to have perfect English. Also I doubt you'd have noticed the nuances of spelling that reveal me to be writing Commonwealth English rather than US English so all the "your"s you used seem somewhat inappropriate. Anyway, yes a communist could, freedom of speech is held sacrosanct in America. They would probably get a lot of complaints but that isn't the issue. And basing your hatred of modern day America on the events of the 1800s does seem a little punitive to me, does anyone else think so? Perhaps you could move on, or were you personally affected by the devolution of the Lousiana to France? And the US has supported anti-Communist counter insurgencies around the world, and thats unquestionably a good thing. Name the Communist state that has a good civil rights record. Russia, China, Cambodia, all killed far more people than Hitler did, yet you object to US prevention of similar occurances? Further more, my point was never that the US was a perfect state, simply that it was a greatly preferable superpower to a number of alternatives. Oh, and for the record, Britain held the Fawklands long before the founding of Argentina, the people of the Fawklands are British and wish to remain so, it is not within Argentinian teritorial waters, it is a part of Britain and the only invasion of the Fawklands that has taken place was when the Argentines did an unjustified surprise attack on them. So in short, get your facts right..... and your spelling.
But they didn't support any anti-communist counter revolution in order to further human rights, did they? They supported them because they were anti-communist, that's all. Did they check the Taleban's human right records before supporting them?
Note : I mean THEY, not YOU.
I'm not anti-american at all, I quite like that place, I don't like nationalism and revisionism.

I don't want to appear as apologist of the moral superiority, but in Spain gays, lesbians and transexuals can marry, and people can smoke wherever they want.
In Saudi Arabie, you can marry several wives. Can you do that in Spain? Ha!
Saudi Arabia is more free than Spain then.

There is a difference between patriotism and nationalism (although these days the line is increasingly blurred). Patriotism is pride in your nation's institutions, culture and history. However, it is not blind to the wrong in the past and does not presume superiority over others. Nationalism is blind patriotism with the belief you are superior to all others.
I dislike both anyway. Patriotism is short sighted and leads to nationalism.

This topic is already actively being discussed:

just like to the following... http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=436557

Well, I'm not sure where to start in criticising that. I'd start with the spelling but seeing as you're foreign you can't be expected to have perfect English. Also I doubt you'd have noticed the nuances of spelling that reveal me to be writing Commonwealth English rather than US English so all the "your"s you used seem somewhat inappropriate. Anyway, yes a communist could, freedom of speech is held sacrosanct in America. They would probably get a lot of complaints but that isn't the issue. And basing your hatred of modern day America on the events of the 1800s does seem a little punitive to me, does anyone else think so? Perhaps you could move on, or were you personally affected by the devolution of the Lousiana to France? And the US has supported anti-Communist counter insurgencies around the world, and thats unquestionably a good thing. Name the Communist state that has a good civil rights record. Russia, China, Cambodia, all killed far more people than Hitler did, yet you object to US prevention of similar occurances? Further more, my point was never that the US was a perfect state, simply that it was a greatly preferable superpower to a number of alternatives. Oh, and for the record, Britain held the Fawklands long before the founding of Argentina, the people of the Fawklands are British and wish to remain so, it is not within Argentinian teritorial waters, it is a part of Britain and the only invasion of the Fawklands that has taken place was when the Argentines did an unjustified surprise attack on them. So in short, get your facts right..... and your spelling.

Thanks for your advices, but I like spanglish :D .

You critizise that I base my arguments on events that happened 200 years ago... but you trust your Constitution, which has not changed since that time.

And history has showed me that the US has NEVER acted in the name of Human Rights or freedom. Never. All his wars have been for territory, money, or oil. And I blame that too. The USSR were evil, but at least they had a sincere ideology.

In Saudi Arabie, you can marry several wives. Can you do that in Spain? Ha!
Saudi Arabia is more free than Spain then.

Yeah, following Vetalia's point of view, it is.

I'm not touching this thread with a 10 metre pole.

2nd's Fass's comment!

Thanks for your advices, but I like spanglish :D .

You critizise that I base my arguments on events that happened 200 years ago... but you trust your Constitution, which has not changed since that time.

And history has showed me that the US has NEVER acted in the name of Human Rights or freedom. Never. All his wars have been for territory, money, or oil. And I blame that too. The USSR were evil, but at least they had a sincere ideology.
Actually, you should say "the USSR WAS evil", and I don't think it has something to do with the language at all. It is just that you are confused. There is no such a thing as an evil country.

Actually, you should say "the USSR WAS evil", and I don't think it has something to do with the language at all. It is just that you are confused. There is no such a thing as an evil country.

**I wrote "were" becuase I talked them about "socialist republics", plural.

Yeah, following Vetalia's point of view, it is.
Sorry I didn't know you were making a point.
In this case, I agree with you. If we define how a country is superior relatively to how free the people are, then Saudi Arabia is winning hands down, then Spain and last the US. (coz Marriage is more free in Saudi Arabia than it is in Spain which is more free than the US).
And if the USSR were evil, then the US must be equally evil if not more.

Thanks for your advices, but I like spanglish :D .

You critizise that I base my arguments on events that happened 200 years ago... but you trust your Constitution, which has not changed since that time.

And history has showed me that the US has NEVER acted in the name of Human Rights or freedom. Never. All his wars have been for territory, money, or oil. And I blame that too. The USSR were evil, but at least they had a sincere ideology.

Funny! I thought Britain has an Unwritten constitution whereas the US had a written constitution that is very very tough to be amended.

You really want to talk history? Shall we look at the History of Europe as well as Europe in Africa?

Funny! I thought Britain has an Unwritten constitution whereas the US had a written constitution that is very very tough to be amended.

You really want to talk history? Shall we look at the History of Europe as well as Europe in Africa?

Britain possesses an unwritten constitution solely because its government and the role of the monarch therin have been progressive from autocracy to constitutional democracy, whereas the USA was founded from a rebellion, and the great men, and they were all great men (cough*Caesar*cough), who founded the USA possessed the capacity to establish a definitive written constitution, since they were in possession of a malleable nation.

Incidentally, the comprehensive History of Europe relative to your inferences is extensive, however I will proffer it if necessary.

Funny! I thought Britain has an Unwritten constitution whereas the US had a written constitution that is very very tough to be amended.

You really want to talk history? Shall we look at the History of Europe as well as Europe in Africa?

I guess you think Im british. Wrong. I am spanish, so if England has or not a written constitution is not debatible in this thread.

If you want to talk about african history, we should talk about Liberia, too.

Funny! I thought Britain has an Unwritten constitution whereas the US had a written constitution that is very very tough to be amended.

You really want to talk history? Shall we look at the History of Europe as well as Europe in Africa?

Well you stayed out well Corny. I was surprised you tried really.

The bright side of Britain's constitution is that it evolves very nicely and we tend to make our displeasures plain (Poll Tax!).

The history of Europe is crap. The US has a chance not to fall into the same old rut and is pissing it away.

Well you stayed out well Corny. I was surprised you tried really.

The bright side of Britain's constitution is that it evolves very nicely and we tend to make our displeasures plain (Poll Tax!).

The history of Europe is crap. The US has a chance not to fall into the same old rut and is pissing it away.

I think the US lost his chance when launched The Bomb...

And, something to worry about: Vietnam, Iraq, LA riots, Katrina, 9/11...

Some people think you're no longer a superpower. You're like the 1700's Spain. Everybody said "Oh, be careful, it is Spain!". But Spain was nothing.

And some politics are pleasing the chinese... instead of the americans... and they're of PP... :rolleyes:

I do regularly post anti-American and anti-Bush messages, and possess an extensive reportoire of such arguments and sentiments, however, I am intruiged as to other such logically progressive arguments, and would like to formulate the definitive anti and pro american argument thread. Enjoy....

World hates us because we newest kid on the block yet we entered the world stage with a kickass backup. We stand for freedom witch many nations dont like since freedom is against religion or whatever.


Anyhow, no end to Anti-Americanism. Until they need help ofcourse.

This existance sucks. So much hate everywhere. Do humans know any other feeling anymore ?

I guess you think Im british. Wrong. I am spanish, so if England has or not a written constitution is not debatible in this thread.

If you want to talk about african history, we should talk about Liberia, too.

Which is only one nation that was established by the United States. Shall we take alook at what Spain did to Cuba and other western hemisphere nations?

Well you stayed out well Corny. I was surprised you tried really.

No! I won't stay out!

The bright side of Britain's constitution is that it evolves very nicely and we tend to make our displeasures plain (Poll Tax!).

LOL!

The history of Europe is crap. The US has a chance not to fall into the same old rut and is pissing it away.

Funny! Funny like a crutch.

World hates us because we newest kid on the block yet we entered the world stage with a kickass backup. We stand for freedom witch many nations dont like since freedom is against religion or whatever.


Anyhow, no end to Anti-Americanism. Until they need help ofcourse.

This existance sucks. So much hate everywhere. Do humans know any other feeling anymore ?

Where do Americans get this idea from? The only people who I'd agree "hate freedom" are the handful of dictators in the world. Not everyone sees freedom in the same way, and not everyone agrees that the US is particularly hot when it comes to freedom. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but it seems like a lot of Americans see "civil liberties" and "freedom" as different things. As in, Freedom is an abstract concept that exists for people to die for, while civil liberties are just something irrelevant for lefties to whine about...