NationStates Jolt Archive

WARNING: TITLE IN SEVERE SARCASM. NO OFFENCE INTENDED! No, I'm not a sadistic a****** who wishes "DEATH TO AMERIKA!", but as everybody is reeling at the shock of the catastrophe, I think it's about time people, especially our competent and efficient governments, learn some lessons about governing:

Number One: Do NOT underestimate the power of nature. I thought we'd learnt that lesson since the Indian Ocean tsunami. Well, we haven't. Today the strongest state in the world bows in front of the sheer might of how nature is unleashed.

Number Two: Do NOT underestimate the human effects on nature that makes disasters even deadlier. I thought we'd learnt that lesson since the Indian Ocean tsunami. Well, we still haven't. Get your act right. Slow down the pollution of the Earth. Set eyes of sustainable development. Your economy is as fragile as the Earth's climate? Well, the Earth's climate could fragil-ise your economy.

Number Three: Instead of squabbling about foreign issues and trying to steer domestic attention, will governments - especially of world powers - act responsible and deal with the obvious problems at home? The obvious example here is the utter incompetence of the American government to deal with the Katrina disaster. But other examples include the governments of China and Japan, and India and Indonesia and others. Ha. So you all think you're powerful and can blow each other up, eh? What's a strong nation without safe and healthy and secure citizens?

Number Four: Governments, PUH-LEESE stop using "I didn't know" or "We didn't expect" and then hope that public opinion will be sympathetic and let you off. Don't skimp the funding for disaster prevention and control.

Number Five: As the recent hike in petrol prices show, we depend too much on that stuff that's going to run out. We NEED alternate sources of energy. Please offer more funding, oh government.

All-in-all, this is a big fiasco. The Indian Ocean tsunami has hit hard - in developing countries. Maybe it doesn't affect us. But the strongest and most developed nation in the world proves to possess a Third World class of disaster management, and now millions are directly affected. After this rant, I just would like to say that at the end of the day, we are all mortal, and we depend on each other. Let's drop all that ridiculous, naiive squabbling and responsbility shirking and get the acts right. No use talking about human rights, health issues, social issues etc. when you can't live.

My deepest condolences are with the victims. My deepest scorn is with the US government.

I agree with all of your points, but the title is just a bit much, and the whole "blame the entire government" thing is a bit simplistic. A government, like a chain, is as strong as its weakest link. And in my humble opinion, there were a few weak links in the middle of our chain.

It works like this. The president declares a state of emergency, which he did. Then the state government goes to work, requesting federal help as needed. Which they didn't. As that is happening, the local police keep things under control. Which they didn't.(some just took off their badge and left) Then the people band together, and take care of each other. Which alot of them didn't. They panicked, and some scum even started shooting at cops.

It was a mess, but that doesn't mean EVERYONE fucked up. It means the chain broke.

~edit~ I don't blame the people for panicking, I just point out that it certainly didn't help.

It was really a pointless rant. I just had to get if off my chest. BIG SIGH. Haiii....

It was really a pointless rant. I just had to get if off my chest. BIG SIGH. Haiii....

Its ok. Let it all out. Now just sit still and I'll whip out your spleen. *puts on rubber gloves*

It was really a pointless rant. I just had to get if off my chest. BIG SIGH. Haiii....
I hear ya! I feel like I have a bulldozer sitting on my chest, watching this. I can't take my eyes off the tv, haven't slept in 36 hours, sick to my stomach. But the news is looking good! They have a steady flow of choppers taking people to safety. Its uplifting, everyone should turn on the news!

I hear ya! I feel like I have a bulldozer sitting on my chest, watching this. I can't take my eyes off the tv, haven't slept in 36 hours, sick to my stomach. But the news is looking good! They have a steady flow of choppers taking people to safety. Its uplifting, everyone should turn on the news!

Thank you Lord!

I said in a previous thread that its events like this that make me think the US is ripe for "regime change".

And I LIVE here...

Aside from the Superdome, which I think was handled pretty poorly, probably because there are just so many different layers of government to deal with, the response wasn't so bad.

It was a mess, but I don't think there was much more we could've expected the government to do. Just because they are in public service does not mean they are super-human.

No matter how "good" a government is, it has no effect on how fast the National Guard could fill sandbags, or how many people are actually going to follow the Evacuation order.

The bottom-line is this: those that remained should not have...

'No matter how "good" a government is, it has no effect on how fast the National Guard could fill sandbags, or how many people are actually going to follow the Evacuation order.'

well, it would help if the army was around helping out rather than them being in iraq on a 'peace making mission' (ha ha) yeah right
as always the poor are ignored as bush smirks at the american people.

the ccp

'No matter how "good" a government is, it has no effect on how fast the National Guard could fill sandbags, or how many people are actually going to follow the Evacuation order.'

well, it would help if the army was around helping out rather than them being in iraq on a 'peace making mission' (ha ha) yeah right
as always the poor are ignored as bush smirks at the american people.

the ccp

I fail to believe that the US government lacked a contingency or emergency plan for such an eventuality, hurricanes are fairly common I believe. The fact remains that Bush has given a poor acquittal of himself herein, and has shown a callous and imcomprehensible lack of care as to the fortunes of the peole of New Orleans.

Those who could leave, but stayed, have no one but themselves to blame. Those who could not leave have as much fault as those who did. People here LOVE to blame EVERYTHING wrong with the world on Bush. Guess what? He isn't the entire government. It's the city's responsibility to take care of its people until state aid comes. It's the state's job to take care of its people until Federal aid comes. Blame Bush all you want. He is nothing more than one man. Plus, why should we opt for a regime change now if it will happen in January of '09? His being booted out of the white house is set in stone. Plus, he was a better choice than Jhohn "UN's bitch" Kerry or that one guy who no one knows anything about.

Natural disasters have a way of doing this. I read in an editorial the other day an example of this. The Johnstown flood of 1889 was when Johnstown, PA, was flooded when a damn burst, killing many, and temporarily wiping the town off the map. It exposed populist tensions of the time. For example, Hungarians were seen then like Mexicans are today: cheap labor able to fill jobs Americans don't want. They were accused of cutting fingers off women to steal their rings (unproven). Blame for the flood was also laid on a club of millionaires from Pittsburgh, who diverted some reservoir water as a fishing pond. They were accused of letting the dam burst because they didn't want the pond anymore (also unproven). This pattern continued for other natural disasters.

It was really a pointless rant.
Indeed it was.

It works like this. The president declares a state of emergency, which he did. Then the state government goes to work, requesting federal help as needed. Which they didn't. As that is happening, the local police keep things under control. Which they didn't.

It was a mess, but that doesn't mean EVERYONE fucked up. It means the chain broke.
The problem was, the disaster was so big, the state government was effectively destroyed. The Mayor was out of communication with the Governor for example, neither knew what the National Guard were doing, and the police were unable to coordinate anything out of earshot, because their stations were destroyed and their radios died.

The constitution be damned, in the face of simple practicalities. At the end of the day, the buck stops with the big cheese at the top, irrespective of what some piece of paper overtaken by events, says.

No, I'm not a sadistic a****** <snip>

I really wish you'd picked a better title for this thread, my friend...

I live in Rural Georgia, where all the Christian Fundamentalists come from... and I have been sickened, and come close to blows, with a new recent mantra.

"New Orleans DESERVED Hurricane Katrina, because it is a city of sin".

I'm finding it a little hard, right now, to stomach anything that resembles positive endorsement of the senseless deaths of thousands of those least capable of taking care of themselves.


I KNOW you are not endorsing it, Dragons Bay - I'm not attacking you... I just wish you'd thought a little more sensitively about your thread title. :(

hmmm... I kinda recall the levies breaking before... Did it? or was that in another part of the State?

Number Four: Governments, PUH-LEESE stop using "I didn't know" or "We didn't expect" and then hope that public opinion will be sympathetic and let you off. Don't skimp the funding for disaster prevention and control.

All-in-all, this is a big fiasco. The Indian Ocean tsunami has hit hard - in developing countries. Maybe it doesn't affect us. But the strongest and most developed nation in the world proves to possess a Third World class of disaster management, and now millions are directly affected. After this rant, I just would like to say that at the end of the day, we are all mortal, and we depend on each other. Let's drop all that ridiculous, naiive squabbling and responsbility shirking and get the acts right. No use talking about human rights, health issues, social issues etc. when you can't live.

4. Louisianna is at fault for its design of N.O. Our federal government does not deal with that. Only basic zoning. This is an oversight of a state region. The emergency relief however is federal government territory.

5. We aren't reeling. Just the poorer population which is greatly effected by the gas prices and lack of resources. I want to say I agree with you completely in the first points. So why people are demanding resources is obviously due to your other points.

Oh and about the bold section, there is no reason to live without some human rights. So I will regardless of my situation demand them along with surviving. I will not want to be shot for them, but I will shoot at someone for them.

'No matter how "good" a government is, it has no effect on how fast the National Guard could fill sandbags, or how many people are actually going to follow the Evacuation order.'

well, it would help if the army was around helping out rather than them being in iraq on a 'peace making mission' (ha ha) yeah right
as always the poor are ignored as bush smirks at the american people.

the ccp

By law united states armed forces...such as the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines have no jurisdiction in nation as far as preserving order is concerned.

By law united states armed forces...such as the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines have no jurisdiction in nation as far as preserving order is concerned.

For some reason, I thought there was an exception for one of those branches.

For some reason, I thought there was an exception for one of those branches.I believe the Federal Government cannot officially send in Military Support unless it's proven that the State cannot restore order by itself.

Hi.

You're very welcome.

Sincerely,
Katrina R.


:rolleyes: :sniper:

:fluffle: :mp5:

:D

There is no possible way to have a contingency for such a disaster. And you you saying that there is a lack of funding is ridiculous. Do you recall the 10.5 billion dollars that has just been passed to use for this disaster? The department of defense cannot legally send troops into a state without the governer's approval. The government cannot be blaemd for criminals shooting police and looting. The government cannot be blamed for criminals shooting at rescue choppers scaring them away. Nature cant be stopped. We can only try to prepare for these things. So for all of you who think that the government is to blame or that this is over racial prejudice then i would suggest you actually find out the truth before ranting.

I believe the Federal Government cannot officially send in Military Support unless it's proven that the State cannot restore order by itself.


Eh.....do the words form the governor and the mayor mean anything....HELP We need help. NO is in anarchy. Gangs, drug dealers and crack hores are running amok. There have been multiple reports of rapes of women AND children. Hospitals are being looted at gun point. At least 10,000 are dead. Food is only getting in now at the slowest of slow paces. Some areas are cut off as the road has collasped. The Police are exhausted and don't have the equipment they need. hundreds have volunteered with their boats and the looters are taking them at gun point. I say if there are any marines not in Iraq(and there are soooo many left in the US :mad: ) let them go in with UN peace keepers WHO ARE ACTUALLY TRAINED TO DEAL WITH SITUATIONS LIKE THIS :mad: (end of my rant)

Number Two: Do NOT underestimate the human effects on nature that makes disasters even deadlier. I thought we'd learnt that lesson since the Indian Ocean tsunami. Well, we still haven't. Get your act right. Slow down the pollution of the Earth. Set eyes of sustainable development. Your economy is as fragile as the Earth's climate? Well, the Earth's climate could fragil-ise your economy.



You must be joking. A tsunami happens because of plate tectonics! There is no relation between climate and tsunami!!! Not everything that happens in the world is our fault, you know?

By law united states armed forces...such as the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines have no jurisdiction in nation as far as preserving order is concerned.


The National Guard can be called up for such but they are under the control of the state governor that does activate them.

Many are under the impression that it is FEMA that is in control but they are not. They are there to provide assistance to the state and local governments.

Because we have a federalist type of government with many layers, the response to this disaster has been a real hodge podge but it appears things are improving and that may mean the issues of who commands what and who controls whom has been worked out.

The National Guard can be called up for such but they are under the control of the state governor that does activate them.

Many are under the impression that it is FEMA that is in control but they are not. They are there to provide assistance to the state and local governments.

Because we have a federalist type of government with many layers, the response to this disaster has been a real hodge podge but it appears things are improving and that may mean the issues of who commands what and who controls whom has been worked out.

Exactly

Eh.....do the words form the governor and the mayor mean anything....HELP We need help. NO is in anarchy. Gangs, drug dealers and crack hores are running amok. There have been multiple reports of rapes of women AND children. Hospitals are being looted at gun point. At least 10,000 are dead. Food is only getting in now at the slowest of slow paces. Some areas are cut off as the road has collasped. The Police are exhausted and don't have the equipment they need. hundreds have volunteered with their boats and the looters are taking them at gun point. I say if there are any marines not in Iraq(and there are soooo many left in the US :mad: ) let them go in with UN peace keepers WHO ARE ACTUALLY TRAINED TO DEAL WITH SITUATIONS LIKE THIS :mad: (end of my rant)did they (the Govenor and Mayor) actually state that they had loss all control and had absolutly no ability to reclaime that control? that they authorized the Federal Government to declare Martial Law?

Not they (State and City Government) declaring Martial Law but saying that the Federal Government can decare Martial Law. for I thnk that's the only way the MILITARY (Navy, Airforce and Army) will be sent in for Law Enforcement duties.

Dragons Bay:

When I first saw the thread title, I rolled my eyes thinking: "Not more trolling!"

But then I saw your name below the title and I figured it was just a case of poorly chosen words. You've been so consistent in your views and how you express them that I knew yoiu couldn't possibly be meaning to say something as, um...moronic as the title of your thread, on purpose.

Thankfully I happened to be right and the actual post contained no ignorance or the like. I agree with a lot of what you said in the rant. Reading the other posts leads me to beleive you're going to be a little more careful about your thread titles after this one. :cool:

I completely agree with the first two posts of the thread.

That said, we need to worry about who messed up and how LATER...right now all that needs doing is whatever is possible to help these people.

I am not anti-american, I must say. I concede that Bush and the senate have made some mistakes, but so did every goverment ever. Mistakes are just easier to fogret about if time has passed.

Now onto my point. IS America going to learn it's lesson. Think of San Fran, and the earthquake that devastated the region long ago. They said never again. Bullpolp. the trend of 'disasters kill more than terrorism, let's try preventing them' never really caught on. It was a 'not on my watch policy'. Disaster was imminent, but disaster previontion measures is an unsexy method of public spending that doesn't attract voters until the next big disaster hits. A bitter cycle. Even disaster ordances put in place by a post disaster nation will fall and crumble because future public budgets go to other, more 'important' things.

So the question put forward by this argument is this- is post 9/11 America (you must admit, 9/11 triggered a major change in psychology for America) any different to it's previous, purely reactive attitudes which have plauged it's way of thinking since it's very creation, or this time will 'never again' MEAN 'never again'.


Oh, and the title? Bad taste man.

Oh...I do apologise for the title. No offence intended. Really. At all. I was rather pissed at the moment of typing and if you'd seen my face or heard me read aloud my post you'd probably think otherwise about the title. I make sure I'm seen and heard sarcastic when I mean sarcasm - but not read. I apologise sincerely! :(

Yeah...I'm still pissed. But if Katrina wasn't a fierce slap on our comfy lives, I don't know what is.

Nocturnal Lemons: Indeed tsunamis are caused by plate tectonics. But a tsunami doesn't need to translate into 300000 lives, right? I mean the incompetence of governments to protect their own citizens, let alone "step onto the world stage" and all that crap.

I'm just curious...how do you prevent a "natural" disaster??

I hate how everyone is jumping on the blame game, saying what we could've or should've done. Everything is evident in hindsight.

You can't expect people to know exactly what to do for an event that last occured a hundred years ago. (Thinking Galveston, which wasn't anywhere near as powerful as this storm)

The bottomline is the best way to prevent loss of life in a natural disaster is to get the hell out of nature's way. That didn't happen here, people believed that they could bear it out.

Edit Addition: The people had advanced warning, they all knew it was coming for atleast a week. This is nothing like the Tsunami, the infastructure that was lacking in the Indian Ocean was present, and was used by the majority of the population to good effect, but when 50,000 out of 500,000 people refuse to listen, what else can you do???

It works like this. The president declares a state of emergency, which he did. Then the state government goes to work, requesting federal help as needed. Which they didn't. As that is happening, the local police keep things under control. Which they didn't.(some just took off their badge and left) Then the people band together, and take care of each other. Which alot of them didn't. They panicked, and some scum even started shooting at cops.
I'm assuming that no one has corrected you on this--assuming because I haven't read the whole thread--but it's important to me that I defend the state and the city because they weren't the problem here. Louisiana started asking for help before the storm hit, and in fact, Bush declared a state of emergency before the storm hit--he did it on the 26th, I believe. Americablog has screen shots of the FEMA website and of the letters sent to the federal government to back it up. In short, the state did what it was supposed to do and what it was able to do.

The feds are the ones who screwed it all up. FEMA didn't respond the way it's supposed to, and since the Department of Homeland Security is supposed to have oversight over natural disaster relief--as it says on their website--they screwed up as well. The local authorities were overwhelmed, as they knew they would be--that's why they asked for help before disaster struck. The federal authorities didn't respond adequately, even when they had assets in place.

Here's the story that is currently pissing me off--or adding to my pissed-offed-ness (it all starts to run together after a while). From the Chicago Tribune: (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0509040369sep04,1,4144825.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true) The USS Bataan, a 844-foot ship designed to dispatch Marines in amphibious assaults, has helicopters, doctors, hospital beds, food and water. It also can make its own water, up to 100,000 gallons a day. And it just happened to be in the Gulf of Mexico when Katrina came roaring ashore.

The Bataan rode out the storm and then followed it toward shore, awaiting relief orders. Helicopter pilots flying from its deck were some of the first to begin plucking stranded New Orleans residents.

But now the Bataan's hospital facilities, including six operating rooms and beds for 600 patients, are empty. A good share of its 1,200 sailors could also go ashore to help with the relief effort, but they haven't been asked. The Bataan has been in the stricken region the longest of any military unit, but federal authorities have yet to fully utilize the ship.People are dying left and right because they can't get adequate medical care and there's a Navy ship practically begging to be used right offshore and nobody's organizing the situation.

So tell me again where the chain broke? It's pretty obvious to me where it broke--it broke when Bush put cronies in charge of the DHS and FEMA instead of putting in the best people for the job.

Here's the story that is currently pissing me off--or adding to my pissed-offed-ness (it all starts to run together after a while). From the Chicago Tribune
I know this might not sound like the excuse you want to hear, but as soon as they found out about the widespread looting, and the shootings, they were VERY hesitant to send in the Marines. Can you imagine what Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would have done if there were news stories of blacks being shot by federal troops? It was basic politics, and I blame all sides! I blame the government for not having the balls to say, "screw it, were goin in", and I blame Jackson, Sharpton and the likes for trying to make everyone walk on glass.

I know this might not sound like the excuse you want to hear, but as soon as they found out about the widespread looting, and the shootings, they were VERY hesitant to send in the Marines. Can you imagine what Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would have done if there were news stories of blacks being shot by federal troops? It was basic politics, and I blame all sides! I blame the government for not having the balls to say, "screw it, were goin in", and I blame Jackson, Sharpton and the likes for trying to make everyone walk on glass.
That's bullshit, plain and simple. The time to send in the Marines--if that's who you're going to send in--was long before the looting became widespread and violent, and the violence didn't start until two days after the hurricane passed. No, this was incompetence on the federal level combined with a lack of caring at work here, and it's no surprise that it happened to a city that was two-thirds black.

Let us not forget that there's more than New Orleans being shafted here--the rest of the Gulf Coast has been hurt badly and hasn't received aid from FEMA either. Supplies haven't been making it into any of those areas--New Orleans is getting most of the press because it's the biggest city and the most famous city in the area, but FEMA's been doing a shitty job across the board, in Plaquemine and St. Bernard Parishes and throughout Mississippi's and Alabama's coasts. My ex-wife lives there, and she's described it to me firsthand, and what you're seeing on tv isn't even a fraction of what's been going on.

Another example for you, from LA Senator Mary Landrieu (http://www.fromtheroots.org/story/2005/9/3/19542/97952), who was praising Bush just the other day:“But perhaps the greatest disappointment stands at the breached 17th Street levee. Touring this critical site yesterday with the President, I saw what I believed to be a real and significant effort to get a handle on a major cause of this catastrophe. Flying over this critical spot again this morning, less than 24 hours later, it became apparent that yesterday we witnessed a hastily prepared stage set for a Presidential photo opportunity; and the desperately needed resources we saw were this morning reduced to a single, lonely piece of equipment.
It's all style and no substance with these fuckers. Here's another example of that philosophy in action (http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/002485.html):Dutch viewer Frank Tiggelaar writes:

There was a striking dicrepancy between the CNN International report on the Bush visit to the New Orleans disaster zone, yesterday, and reports of the same event by German TV.

ZDF News reported that the president's visit was a completely staged event. Their crew witnessed how the open air food distribution point Bush visited in front of the cameras was torn down immediately after the president and the herd of 'news people' had left and that others which were allegedly being set up were abandoned at the same time.

The people in the area were once again left to fend for themselves, said ZDF.
I'm sorry, but if any of you people are continue to defend the Bush administration's actions on the Katrina aftermath, or on anything else, you'd do well to put me on your ignore list right now, because you're not going to like what I have to say. I imagine the word "treason" will pop up with increasing regularity.

You wanna know what is ridiculous? That people want to stay in the city. There are bars open on Bourbon street for christ's sake..... I don't blame anyone except for the people themselves that are stubborn enough to remain. Go to cnn.com, go to msn.com and you will see people sitting on their roofs with signs "Need Food and Water, Please Help, We are Staying!"

It has nothing to do with race, it has nothing to do with not caring. It has to do with the fact that they did not evacuate.

I'm tired of people using this terrible natural disaster as a means to push their own agendas.

Hurricane Katrina is just another event in a series of events which proves the inefficient and corrupt nature of government.

You wanna know what is ridiculous? That people want to stay in the city. There are bars open on Bourbon street for christ's sake..... I don't blame anyone except for the people themselves that are stubborn enough to remain. Go to cnn.com, go to msn.com and you will see people sitting on their roofs with signs "Need Food and Water, Please Help, We are Staying!"

It has nothing to do with race, it has nothing to do with not caring. It has to do with the fact that they did not evacuate.

I'm tired of people using this terrible natural disaster as a means to push their own agendas.

And, many of those people who stayed, did so out of necessity.

What makes you so sure they CHOSE to stay? The buses stopped running Saturday night... and many people don't own a car. For many of those staying, it was a lack of choice that determined that strategy.

And, many of those people who stayed, did so out of necessity.

What makes you so sure they CHOSE to stay? The buses stopped running Saturday night... and many people don't own a car. For many of those staying, it was a lack of choice that determined that strategy.

It was previously stated that the people who were forced to stay are the exception. However when helicopters hover over a house and the people refuse to get in.... The key diction in my above comment was: Want.

It was previously stated that the people who were forced to stay are the exception. However when helicopters hover over a house and the people refuse to get in.... The key diction in my above comment was: Want.

Again, my friend, you make 'facts' out of whole-cloth.

I, personally, am afraid of heights. Faced with the choice of sitting on my roof, just above water level, and having people lower food to me... or climbing a rope-ladder to a 'car-suspended-on-a-corkscrew', I'd 'want' to stay on the roof.

And one person refusing to get into a helicopter (especially with no in-depth explanations of WHY a person refused), is hardly enough cause to imply that ALL people sitting on the rooftops CHOSE to be there.

Hurricane Katrina is just another event in a series of events which proves the inefficient and corrupt nature of government.

I apologize for asking this, but what planet are you from?

If we have anything to thank Katrina for (which, as has already been said, is a very poor choice of words), it's that people in America are finally unable to ignore the fact that government is not, as Reagan said famously, always the problem, because reality is finally shoving the truth in their face.

For roughly 25 years, the whole mantra surrounding government is that we need less and less and less of it. Instead, if we just got rid of government intrusion into our lives, the market would take over, everyone would be rich, dogs and cats would live together in harmony, and so on and so forth. I find it especially ironic that no area of the country drank this particular Kool-Aid more heavily than the Deep South. As a consequence of that, a lot of things that could have mitigated the damage wasn't done: funding for the Army Corps of Engineers was slashed, which meant that they were unable to reinforce the levy system, even though people have been predicting for years that even a Category 3 storm would dump Lake Ponchetrain into New Orleans. The 14 billion that had been asked to rebuild the natural coastal barriers (the Mississippi used to create a delta which provided coastal barriers between New Orleans and the see, but with the upriver efforts to canal the Mississippi, the amount of silt being sent downstream has dropped off dramatically, hence the need to "rebuild" said parts of the delta) was dismissed out of hand as environmentalism run amok, never mind the fact that those barriers would have shielded New Orleans from a good deal of the storm surge. The reason why this stuff wasn't done was because, hey, all we really need is for the government to get the hell off our back, remember?

Well, now we have our answer. Charity isn't going to rebuild a completely demolished infrastructure. The market isn't going to helicopter in supplies to starving and desperate poor people. Self-reliance isn't going to return order and stability to New Orleans. Only a strong, uncorrupt, centralized, and proactive government (all things, mind you, that we have not been asking for in the last 25 years) can provide those things. In short, Katrina reminded us in no uncertain terms that yes, Virginia, you do need a goddamned government for something, and the "libertarian" answers to questions of how government should deal with society hold. . . well, they hold a lot less water than New Orleans is holding right now, to be perfectly frank.

To directly respond to your statement, AC, it doesn't show the corrupt nature of government; it shows that we need to ask a lot more of our government than we have been asking, and at the same time we need to be willing to pay the price for that privilege of effective governance, because we've just been reminded of how there is no substitute.

Again, my friend, you make 'facts' out of whole-cloth.

I, personally, am afraid of heights. Faced with the choice of sitting on my roof, just above water level, and having people lower food to me... or climbing a rope-ladder to a 'car-suspended-on-a-corkscrew', I'd 'want' to stay on the roof.

And one person refusing to get into a helicopter (especially with no in-depth explanations of WHY a person refused), is hardly enough cause to imply that ALL people sitting on the rooftops CHOSE to be there.

Which is why I didn't imply...buddy. I simply said that people who had a choice to leave and didn't are responsible only to themselves. No where did i say all 50,000 or whatever else the tremendous number is upto, who are stuck there, are doing so with their free will. You assumed so...

ADDITION:

And don't call what I am saying baseless. type in www.cnn.com and you will see exactly what I am talking about. One of the latest stories' in their continuing coverage headline reads:

Holdouts defy evacuation warnings
Police says thousands refusing to leave New Orleans

Most of the criticism of the federal government response is in relation to speed.

How fast do we expect them to bring relief? How fast can they respond?

It is not possible to move the equivalent of several divisions of soldiers, supplies for themselves, and supplies for a few hundred thousand victims within hours. Moving within 3-4 days is probably the best we can expect, due to the complex logistics.

As an example, the 82nd Airborne is on constant ready status, supplies pre-packed, and can only move on 18 hours notice. This is considered state of the art military readiness, only a few countries have the equivalent. Normal movement of divisions takes weeks.

I am not suggesting that our federal response is acceptable, time and investigation will show us how to improve. Staging supplies into or near the distaster area may be an area of interest - this could be done in advance of hurricanes.

There will always be physical limits to how quickly troops and supplies can be moved, and I think that federal manpower will always be days after the event, not hours. I think a big area of improvement will be at the state/local level, if only because of the proximity to the disaster.

The local areas need to have self-sufficiency, at least for the few days before federal response - certainly in the basic matters of food, water, and shelter. They need to develop practical emergency plans and be able to hold on for a few days. They owe it to themselves.

Which is why I didn't imply...buddy. I simply said that people who had a choice to leave and didn't are responsible only to themselves. No where did i say all 50,000 or whatever else the tremendous number is upto, who are stuck there, are doing so with their free will. You assumed so...


Buddy? Good - glad to see you can be friendly... I was worried you were coming accross as a little confrontational.


ADDITION:

And don't call what I am saying baseless. type in www.cnn.com and you will see exactly what I am talking about. One of the latest stories' in their continuing coverage headline reads:

Holdouts defy evacuation warnings
Police says thousands refusing to leave New Orleans

You know, some people are intimidated about being told to leave their homes, by men with guns. Call them crazy, but the city has been somewhat disturbed of late, and the government solution seems to have mainly consisted of killing people. Not everyone feels entirely comfortable putting their lives in such hands.

Look at the news stories. Look at the poisonous water. Look at the fires and destruction. Look at the crawling, creeping threats that slip through the sewer-swamp streets.

People who are holing-up now, are not staying for the good of their health. They are staying because they are SCARED, or because they think they NEED to - that New Orleans 'dies' if it empties, or because they are hopeless - they don't see any light on the horizon... and if you are going to die, you might as well die in your own bed.

Just one of the links threw me this response... : "Some are staying with the hope of rebuilding their communities. Others say they would leave if only they could get a ride. All agree that with no water or power, probably for months to come, they need more help from the government just to survive".

It is also worth noting that the article you cite says: "Nagin said most of the survivors that rescuers are finding now are elderly and in desperate need of emergency medical care". Again - hardly the very picture of civil disobedience.

Its not like the National Guard is running around shooting people...I'm really confused as to where you are getting that from. I have been trying to follow the news, which is kinda hard considering I don't have a television here, but from all accounts I have seen nothing of the sort. I am begged to wonder what sources you have for this: "the government solution seems to have mainly consisted of killing people"

Furthermore, I never said a thing about civil disobedience, not a blessed thing.

Its not like the National Guard is running around shooting people...I'm really confused as to where you are getting that from. I have been trying to follow the news, which is kinda hard considering I don't have a television here, but from all accounts I have seen nothing of the sort. I am begged to wonder what sources you have for this: "the government solution seems to have mainly consisted of killing people"

Furthermore, I never said a thing about civil disobedience, not a blessed thing.

Sorry, I thought you were implying that those who were disobeying the mandatory evacuation were doing so from some form of choice to resist.

Maybe you didn't mean it to sound like it sounded?

Sorry, I thought you were implying that those who were disobeying the mandatory evacuation were doing so from some form of choice to resist.

Maybe you didn't mean it to sound like it sounded?

A lot of them are resisting, a lot of them do not want to leave the city. You can read that anywhere, from CNN, to MSNBC, to the New York Times, to Foxnews, to BBC, to La Repubblica, to any other news outlet you want.

The fact that 10,000 people are going to have to be dragged out now after the fact is a testament to this.

Of the 50,000 people that were left in the city when the storm hit, I can say with some certainty that at least 10,000 of them did so by choice, and not by a lack of options. When that number of people refuses to evacuate, you cannot help but to expect such high death tolls.

To me, perhaps in a very Darwinian way or not, I do not feel that the Federal Government is responsible for any mishandling resulting in the death of those that refused to leave when told to do so and given the opportunity to.

For those that died because they could not get out of the city it is a tragedy, and indeed a terrible failing on behalf of those governmental overseers (whether they are city or state, I am unsure) that allowed that to happen. However I think that the death toll would be substantially, I might even saying exponentially, less than what it is if it was composed only of those that were left stranded in the city without a method of escape.

EDIT ADDITION: To me they are not resisting just for the sake of resisting, so I do not feel that you can truly call it civil disobedience. They have various reasons to want to stay, all of which are worth much less than the risk they are/were putting themselves in.