NationStates Jolt Archive

For the first time in 13 years Brazil has seen a fall in the number of deaths caused by firearms.
Last year 36,000 people were killed by guns - a drop of 8% from 2003, according to the health ministry.
The government says the change is due to innovative disarmament measures, including a gun buy-back scheme.
...
The government puts the improvement down to its own disarmament policies.
A new law has placed restrictions on who can buy and carry guns, and over the past year nearly half a million weapons have been handed in to police under the buy-back scheme.
From:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4210558.stm

How interesting. Less people with guns = less deaths from guns.
Whoever would have thought that?!

Yea I noticed that too.

Interesting.

Yet, Brazil's gun death rates are still higher than the US gun death rates (as well as real gun deaths as well, by 6,000 actually.)

Brazil? Isn't that the country that lectures us for accidentally shooting one of their citizens, while deliberately gunning down their own street children?

Beyond that, I'd have to say that guns are a cultural sort of thing. Some nations have situations where guns and private gun ownership have played major roles in their national culture, such as the United States. But there are other places where guns just haven't played a role such as the UK. Different cultures will have different results with guns.

And yet in Switzerland, with more firearms per capita, more shooting ranges per capita, than any other nation, has incredily low crime....hmm, maybe the availability of firearms doesn't have all that much to do with crime? Is that why crime skyrocketed in Austrailia, machine gun use in England is higher than ever, etc, after both enacted draconian confiscation laws, disarming almost all of thier citizens? Hmm, gun control doesn't work,look at Washington, DC for a perfect example.
When governments disarm thier citizens no matter what the reason, bad things happen.....usually to those selfsame disarmed subjects.

But with the Swiss, with guns comes the training aspect. With USians and Brazilians, that isn't there.

And yet in Switzerland, with more firearms per capita, more shooting ranges per capita, than any other nation, has incredily low crime....hmm, maybe the availability of firearms doesn't have all that much to do with crime? Is that why crime skyrocketed in Austrailia, machine gun use in England is higher than ever, etc, after both enacted draconian confiscation laws, disarming almost all of thier citizens? Hmm, gun control doesn't work,look at Washington, DC for a perfect example.
When governments disarm thier citizens no matter what the reason, bad things happen.....usually to those selfsame disarmed subjects.

As long as the government can get rid of all the firearms in the country (take the UK) then few criminals have guns and murders drop.

As long as the government can get rid of all the firearms in the country (take the UK) then few criminals have guns and murders drop.

So let's go w/ the alcohol example again shall we?

In the US, ownership has increased and crime has decreased so there's no absolute causality.

But with the Swiss, with guns comes the training aspect. With USians and Brazilians, that isn't there.

The Swiss are not as large as America or Brazil, so it's easier to make sure their citizens are trained in how to correctly use a firearm (though I agree, if more people were actually trained in how to handle a gun rather then go off from what they see on TV, things would be better off)

Yes, successfully banning guns limits gun crimes.

This isn't much of a secret. I mean some German folks already discovered it a few decades back...

http://www.xmission.com/~ranthon/4.gif

Yes. Gun control immediately equates to nazism. :rolleyes:

Yes. Gun control immediately equates to nazism. :rolleyes:

Did I say that?

:rolleyes: yourself.

As long as the government can get rid of all the firearms in the country (take the UK) then few criminals have guns and murders drop.
You/re kidding, right?
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article310182.ece

The crime rate in England is rocketing out of control. Autralia also banned almost all civilian possession of firearms, and thier crime rate is also breaking the sound barrier going up.
Switzerland does not require training to be a firearms owner, but it is required when in the militia/military, which is not required to be a gun owner.

Gun ownership does not equal crime, but restricted gun ownership means a crime increase. Criminals have very little to fear from police, but fear armed citizens quite a bit. Otherwise, places like Kennesaw GA, would have been a bloodbath years ago, instead of having it's violent crime rate drop 80% after it passed a mandatory firearms ownership law over 10 years ago, and maintain this level while surrounding Atlanta rises...

As long as the government can get rid of all the firearms in the country (take the UK) then few criminals have guns and murders drop.

What that really stops is crazy people getting guns, we had two massacres (sp?) in Britain, one in Hungerford and one in Dunblaine...after Dunblaine the gun resptrictions came in. Needless to say we have not had another Dunblaine moment and I'm happy for it.

As for all the illegal guns, until you actually get locked away or even punished for carrying an illegal fire arm the problem will arise. Unfortunatly in Britain we do not enforce the laws we have. Murder does not carry a sentence for the rest of your life, neither does rape or phedophiles.

I get the feeling that If ever a law was actually enforced the crime rate might actually drop....but then that would involve sending people to jail for long peroids...and that wouldn't do. :rolleyes:

Gun ownership does not equal crime, but restricted gun ownership means a crime increase.

How exactly do you explain Japan then...where only a few 1000 gun licences are given out each year after a very harsh system of testing.

Perhaps because their police for actually does the job.

In your last statement you acutally ignore the first post in the thread...the one where there has been a reduction in gun deaths in line with a reduction in guns...only seeing what you want to see. ;)

Japan has a culture of blind obediance, and a reaction to despair by suicide. On the other hand, no subways have been gassed in the US, as has happened in Japan, and firearms are entering into Japan from the defucnt Soviet Union. Also, the Japanese police have no consitutional guarentees restraining them them from torture or any other coercion, which is one reason Japanese police have a 97% conviction rate.
As for a reduction of gun deaths, hmm, never saw a gun die. Now, a reduction in reported firearm related deaths, now that is what you really mean, right?
Dissect this, if you will....
For the first time in 13 years Brazil has seen a fall in the number of deaths caused by firearms.
The crimials are being caught and prosecuted? Guns do absolutely nothing without a trigger finger.
Last year 36,000 people were killed by guns - a drop of 8% from 2003, according to the health ministry.
Great - if the Health Ministry is telling the truth. I like government stats, but appreciate corroborating facts from independant investigators, as well.
The government says the change is due to innovative disarmament measures, including a gun buy-back scheme. Surprise - the government says it's due to the government - they wouldn't credit anything else but thier own efforts, now would they? Politics is perception after all. Not to mention the ridiculous notion of "buy-backs" - how can you buy something back that you never owned? This presupposes the government owns everything originally, eliminating those pesky property rights. Karl Marx would be proud, if he wasn't safely rotting.
...
The government puts the improvement down to its own disarmament policies.
A new law has placed restrictions on who can buy and carry guns, and over the past year nearly half a million weapons have been handed in to police under the buy-back scheme. Same as above - and what rights to a free press does Brazil have, so there are people who challenge government facts and figures, or is it far more dictatorial, believe what we say, MiniTruth has spoken? I don't know, honest question. Any Brazilians here? But since I did know a Rio de Janero cop online for a while, and he said the run into rocket propelled grenades, anti tank mines, full auto weapons, etc, things we here in Free AZ don't run into, I'd say gun control as a whole does not work, unless you want to slaughter your own people, in which case it works quite well. Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, Mugabe and others might agree. My take, worth what you paid for it, but you on Airstrip One have your own opinions, too.

You forgot to mention that if the Brazilian gun buyback program was responsible, the decrease had nothing it to do with gun ownership, the buyback program was established at the end of 2003 but didn't start buying back guns until the very end of 2004 (alright, it could have had an effect on the usual Christmas rush of shooting). And the restrictions on gun ownership were passed in 2003, started to come into effect in july 2004 but didnt fully kick in until 2005. I somehow doubt that the new restrcitions on gun ownership which for the most part weren't in effect in 2004 could have had much effect on firearms related death in 2004.

I could be wrong on this, and laws may be able to have an effect before they come into force, but it seems more likely the cause in the decrease of firearms fatalities was caused by the major increase in police anti-gang activities. When we add in the fact that most of this decrease came in the areas where police anti-gang activities were strongest, it seems that this alternative hypothesis for the decrease is more likely correct.