NationStates Jolt Archive

Not on sentient humans, but on patients in PVS. It could provide us great scientifical benefit, and perhaps legalizing live experimentation on PVS patients.

They're not coming back. They can't do anything. These people have NO hope. They can't feel. They can't think. And they never will.

They're less sentient than the majority of rats, and we still experiment on Rats don't we?

We should also we allowed to experiment on live PVS patients.

Not on sentient humans, but on patients in PVS. It could provide us great scientifical benefit, and perhaps legalizing live experimentation on PVS patients.

They're not coming back. They can't do anything. These people have NO hope. They can't feel. They can't think. And they never will.

They're less sentient than the majority of rats, and we still experiment on Rats don't we?

We should also we allowed to experiment on live PVS patients.
Here's the thing: yes, we experiment on rats, but we don't experiment on a private citizen's pet rat. We don't appropriate pet rats that belong to private citizens. A person in a PVS "belongs" to their designated guardian(s) or authorized relatives, NOT TO THE GOVERNMENT. Even if you want to make the argument that a person in a PVS is on par with a non-conscious lifeform (which I don't personally agree with), you still can't justify "theft" of that person from their "rightful owners" under the law.

what experiments do you think could be done on pvs patients?


our bodies do not belong to the state, they belong to the individual and for patients who cannot make medical decisions their next of kin are expected to do what is in the patients best interest. that is not likely to be medical experimentation.

what experiments do you think could be done on pvs patients?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_experimentation

Anything that can be done on Normal People, except you know, there is no risk of killing an innocent person, as I wouldn't consider PVS patients people...humans...yes..but not people.

what experiments do you think could be done on pvs patients?

Ever heard of Mengele?

Ever heard of Mengele?
it was my impression that most of his work turned out to be worthless.

it was my impression that most of his work turned out to be worthless.
The bits about hypothermia and oxygen deprivation?

Ever heard of Mengele?

You make me sick! Shame on you! Shame! :mad:

Ever heard of Mengele?

Yes, the child torturer, murderer, and pervert. Quite something to be proud of, and I don't think you could even begin to comprehend the depths of his depravity. And, you'd better hope to whatever you believe in that your little experiments aren't turned on to yourself. Read about him before you spout such naivete.

Now, the point is, is that this is actually BETTER then Animal Cruelty.

Animals can still feel pain, and are still conscious.

However, PVS patients are not. It's like experimenting on a dead guy, or experimenting on a piece of...rubber.

They don't have minds anymore, they're gone. They're not coming back.

In this case, it doesn't matter how "brutal" it is, because they can't feel it, they won't care.

As long as there is scientific benefit of some sort.

Now, the point is, is that this is actually BETTER then Animal Cruelty.

Animals can still feel pain, and are still conscious.
However, PVS patients are not. It's like experimenting on a dead guy, or experimenting on a piece of...rubber.

They don't have minds anymore, they're gone. They're not coming back.
In this case, it doesn't matter how "brutal" it is, because they can't feel it, they won't care.
As long as there is scientific benefit of some sort.

Animal research is almost always minimized to prevent pain to the animal, and utmost care is taken to ensure that.

No, they are alive, and it is perfectly possible that they can feel pain. We don't know for sure, and likely cannot. Do you hold the right to determine who lives or dies, and you assign worth to humanity? Stunningly pretentious.

What would you do if one of your family was put in to PVS?

If I got into a PVS mode, I'd sure as hell sign-up for that. I'm dead anyways. Who cares if my body get's poked and prodded a little. Not gonna matter. It's the same as donating your brain to science after you die, or donating a kidney when you die.

Which should be mandatory.

When you die, and you have a healthy organ, donating it should be mandatory, or at least heavily encouraged.

If a person is dead then the most efficient thing to do would be to recycle them. Corpses benefit nobody but organs and fertilizers are beneficial for many people.

If a person is dead then the most efficient thing to do would be to recycle them. Corpses benefit nobody but organs and fertilizers are beneficial for many people.

And we could experiment on the Corpses, before we recycle them. In a way, burying them DOES act sorta like a fertilizer.

Wonder why Graveyards have such lush lawns. :rolleyes:

If I got into a PVS mode, I'd sure as hell sign-up for that. I'm dead anyways. Who cares if my body get's poked and prodded a little. Not gonna matter. It's the same as donating your brain to science after you die, or donating a kidney when you die.

Which should be mandatory.

When you die, and you have a health organ, donating it should be mandatory, or at least heavily encouraged.

:rolleyes:

However, I won't be donating my brain.

That will be implanted into a "Bender" Robot.

I don't think that burying people actually helps the grass due to our efforts in preserving dead bodies and in keeping them from rotting. We should try to achieve the most economic benefit using the least resources.

I don't think that burying people actually helps the grass due to our efforts in preserving dead bodies and in keeping them from rotting. We should try to achieve the most economic benefit using the least resources.

Perhaps, but it doesn't really matter in the end, because we have enough fertilizer.

bump

Perhaps, but it doesn't really matter in the end, because we have enough fertilizer.
Always could use more, people sell cow poop why not human ashes?

Always could use more, people sell cow poop why not human ashes?

Because Cow Pies are yummy...because they're pies.

Anyways, lets get back on subject. What's wrong with my idea? If I ever go into a PVS, I'd support it.

Great idea but use death row convicts as they belong to the state instead of pvs people


Not on sentient humans, but on patients in PVS. It could provide us great scientifical benefit, and perhaps legalizing live experimentation on PVS patients.

They're not coming back. They can't do anything. These people have NO hope. They can't feel. They can't think. And they never will.

They're less sentient than the majority of rats, and we still experiment on Rats don't we?

We should also we allowed to experiment on live PVS patients.

Great idea but use death row convicts as they belong to the state instead of pvs people

1. This will count as "Cruel and Unusual Punishment." The Bill of Rights forbids it.

2. However, it can't be cruel or unusual to PVS people, because they can't feel it, and they're not concious. And we can have TONS of fun while doing it, with no moral or ethics issues.

I am aware of quite how callous and macabre this is, but in the case of death row internees in the USA, would they not be put to considerably better use as medical experiments, since they have, legally, foregone the right to humane consideration and according action.

I am aware of quite how callous and macabre this is, but in the case of death row internees in the USA, would they not be put to considerably better use as medical experiments, since they have, legally, foregone the right to humane consideration and according action.

I agree. as i mentioned in the animal experimentation thread, criminals would be ideal for experiments. They are almost human after all. We could start with death row inmates, then paedophiles cos everyone hates them, and rapists. It would be interesting what level of criminal you could reach before there was a public outcry. Probably muggers I'd say.

Anyway with regard to the PVS patients, its not a bad idea, but there would need to be a permission thing like the donor cards we have in britain. otherwise the families would kick up a fuss. Remember terri shiavo? The right wing nutjobs would have gone berzerk.

Not on sentient humans, but on patients in PVS. It could provide us great scientifical benefit, and perhaps legalizing live experimentation on PVS patients.

They're not coming back. They can't do anything. These people have NO hope. They can't feel. They can't think. And they never will.

They're less sentient than the majority of rats, and we still experiment on Rats don't we?

We should also we allowed to experiment on live PVS patients.
because people are people, you don't get to decide when a person is no longer of worth. the fact that there are so many people trying to draw a line between what is a person and what is not really bothers me.
what if we run out of PVS people, who are the next nonpersons that we will torture to save rats? people who are insane? retarded children? hey why not just round up everyone we feel isn't as useful as we are and use them for whatever we want to? they don't deserve rights or the dignity that we do, heck they might not even be able to feel pain.
besides I can always rationalize it later right? it isn't like they are going to know anyway.

I agree. as i mentioned in the animal experimentation thread, criminals would be ideal for experiments. They are almost human after all. We could start with death row inmates, then paedophiles cos everyone hates them, and rapists. It would be interesting what level of criminal you could reach before there was a public outcry. Probably muggers I'd say.

Anyway with regard to the PVS patients, its not a bad idea, but there would need to be a permission thing like the donor cards we have in britain. otherwise the families would kick up a fuss. Remember terri shiavo? The right wing nutjobs would have gone berzerk.

Hmm. The Right-Wingers might get bezerk, but the Super Radical Right-Wingers will love it, because we get to do horrible torturous experiments on Humans. They aren't conscious humans, but that's not the point. Everyone wins. Except maybe the family of the PVS patient, but that's not our problem.

Really, we can't do this stuff to prisoners, because it constitutes as Cruel and Unusual Punishment.

However, PVS patients can't feel it, so if we were to do stuff like Unit 731 or Mengele, it wouldn't matter, because they can't feel it, they're not sentient, and not they're not concisious, and they never will be for any three.

Here's the thing: yes, we experiment on rats, but we don't experiment on a private citizen's pet rat. We don't appropriate pet rats that belong to private citizens. A person in a PVS "belongs" to their designated guardian(s) or authorized relatives, NOT TO THE GOVERNMENT. Even if you want to make the argument that a person in a PVS is on par with a non-conscious lifeform (which I don't personally agree with), you still can't justify "theft" of that person from their "rightful owners" under the law.


Couldnt explain it any better then that. i find it funny the ones that scream facist right now strangely want facist like things sometimes :rolleyes:

Everyone wins. Except maybe the family of the PVS patient, but that's not our problem.

What an idiot!

It is YOUR problem and not the problem of the families of PVS people as you are the one FORCING it on them.

Who cares about it saving animals.

Im amazed at how some people think we should mistreat, torture and degrade our fellow humans over some vermin like rats or mice.

Animals should be tested on before we even consider testing it on anything else, human wise.

Besides, like others have pointed out, Hocus pocus 'science' like that of Jozef Mengele was crap.

It did fuck all for the cause of medicine and Mengele was hired NOT to find cures or new advances in healthcare, but to implement the insane 'theories' of Hitler, who wanted Mengele to do his 'work' to make people suffer and try and give a scientific basis to his insane racial views.

Im amazed at how some people think we should mistreat, torture and degrade our fellow humans over some vermin like rats or mice.

The Problem is, is that Mice are not identical to Humans. In some experiments, the only possible way to do it, is to experiment on Humans.

An example is the Yellow Fever Experiments.

The U.S. Government experimented on I believe more then two dozen men, by injecting some with Yellow Fever, blah blah blah.

True, a bunch of them died somewhat painful deaths, but in the end, it saved thousands and tens of thousands of lives, by ending Yellow Fever.

Except now, we can do this kind of stuff, without actually harming any sentient beings.

And plus, there are other experiments that only Humans can be used, like Millitary Experiments "Hmm...how many cuts can this person take without dying in a certain place." Stuff like that. It could help us learn the limitations of the human body as well, and we don't have to worry about ethical considerations.

It would be a HUGE leap of Science.

Well if these so-called experimants are used for military purposes, even more reason to ban them!

Soldiers sign up to the military knowing full well they could get blown up, tortures, shot, stabbed whatever in combat.

Other people should never have to be experimented on just to save the lives of a few troops.

The troops have the benefit of having a choice to suffer, unlike the people you suggest torturing in a nazi like fashion.

If this ever came in to practice, I would support the lethal use of force by people on the doctors and scientists invloved in such vile activities, just like some christians support the killing of abortion doctors.

Your views are way behind the times.

The Problem is, is that Mice are not identical to Humans. In some experiments, the only possible way to do it, is to experiment on Humans.

An example is the Yellow Fever Experiments.

The U.S. Government experimented on I believe more then two dozen men, by injecting some with Yellow Fever, blah blah blah.

True, a bunch of them died somewhat painful deaths, but in the end, it saved thousands and tens of thousands of lives, by ending Yellow Fever.

Except now, we can do this kind of stuff, without actually harming any sentient beings.

And plus, there are other experiments that only Humans can be used, like Millitary Experiments "Hmm...how many cuts can this person take without dying in a certain place." Stuff like that. It could help us learn the limitations of the human body as well, and we don't have to worry about ethical considerations.

It would be a HUGE leap of Science.

you don't think that experimenting on humans has any ethical considerations?
I really hope that isn't true.

Vivisection

* Live vivisections were performed on prisoners infected with various diseases; scientists would remove organs to study the effects of the disease on the human body.
* Prisoners were amputated limb by limb to study blood loss.
* Arms were cut off and reattached to opposite sides.
* Limbs were frozen and sawed off.
* Stomachs were surgically removed and the esophagus was reattached to the intestines.
* Parts of the brain, lungs, liver, etcetera were taken out.

Weapons testing

* Grenade tests used human targets at various distances and positions.
* Flame throwers were tested on humans.
* Bombs were tested on humans tied to stakes at various positions.

Other experiments

* Human subjects were deprived of food and water to study the effects and duration before death.
* Prisoners were placed in pressurized chambers until they died.
* Frostbite experiments were conducted on prisoners to determine how long humans can survive when exposed to extreme temperatures.
* Temperature experiments were performed to determine the relationship between temperature, burns, and survival rate.
* Prisoners were placed into centrifuges and spun until they died.
* Animal blood was injected into humans.
* Prisoners were bombarded with lethal doses of x-ray radiation.
* Gas chambers tested chemical weapons on prisoners.
* Air bubbles were injected into prisoners' bloodstreams to simulate a stroke.
* Sea water was injected into prisoners to determine if it could be substituted for saline.

It's obviously VERY evil to do that, even to felons, convicts, rapists, pedophiles, and etc, and only a horrible human being could do that to ANY concious thing.

However, it is true, that some of these tests MAY have had medical merit, but despite that, it doesn't change that fact that it's evil to do it. (In fact, the U.S.A. even admitted so itself in WWII.)

However, PVS is VERY useful.

Now, we can do these kinds of experiments WITHOUT harming anyone concious. And we obviously don't need anethstethics for obvious reasons.

PVS patients are even people now. They're just lumps of flesh. They're just like dead bodies, or a piece of rubber even. Whatever was left of a soul, mind, conciousness, or anything, is gone.

So lets do this stuff today!

It's obviously VERY evil to do that, even to felons, convicts, rapists, pedophiles, and etc, and only a horrible human being could do that to ANY concious thing.

However, it is true, that some of these tests MAY have had medical merit, but despite that, it doesn't change that fact that it's evil to do it. (In fact, the U.S.A. even admitted so itself in WWII.)

However, PVS is VERY useful.

Now, we can do these kinds of experiments WITHOUT harming anyone concious. And we obviously don't need anethstethics for obvious reasons.

PVS patients are even people now. They're just lumps of flesh. They're just like dead bodies, or a piece of rubber even. Whatever was left of a soul, mind, conciousness, or anything, is gone.

So lets do this stuff today!

I am going to have to not comment very much as I am getting very angry. My father was in PVS for 6 months. I didn't even begin to consider him as a lump of flesh or a dead body. He was my father.
I will have to repeat my original point and then probibly take a break from the discussion
people are people, they have rights concious or not, whether they can feel, think, or act, they are not any less than you are. You don't have the right to do with them what you will because you percieve them to be less important than yourself.

you don't think that experimenting on humans has any ethical considerations?
I really hope that isn't true.

Only if it's done on Concious, Sentient, or not mindless (or have a slight chance to be), people, without their consent.

This stuff could be dangerous, and that's why we have to draw a VERY concrete line.

Only PVS pateints (meaning Mindless, Unconcious, and not Sentient, and never will be no matter what), can have this done to them. This can be very serious stuff, and it would be horrible if done on anyone else.

No!

The only thing that needs to be done today is to put you in the loony bin!

You need help, and I pray for the poor therapist who has you take you in as your going to be a tough nut to crack!

I don't give a shit about 'science'. It BS that science is always done in the name of humanity.

The Atomic bomb, WMDs, crappy internet pop ups, junk food and other horrors have all been done by science.

And science has not cured world hunger, poverty, and other ills besides.

Why, because most scientists don't give a shit about how their advances will affect us.

They see their work as pure business. There is BIG money to be made from science.

And to consider taking your loony ideas for that is all the more obsence.

Only if it's done on Concious, Sentient, or not mindless (or have a slight chance to be), people, without their consent.

This stuff could be dangerous, and that's why we have to draw a VERY concrete line.

Only PVS pateints (meaning Mindless, Unconcious, and not Sentient, and never will be no matter what), can have this done to them. This can be very serious stuff, and it would be horrible if done on anyone else.
It is horrible to do that stuff to anyone. PVS or not.

Also, a better idea, then forcefully taking it, is to purchase it from the family, for a fair deal. Always a good idea. I've always been an advocate of Property Rights, unless you know, in a severe emergency.

Also, a better idea, then forcefully taking it, is to purchase it from the family, for a fair deal. Always a good idea. I've always been an advocate of Property Rights, unless you know, in a severe emergency.
I really hope you aren't talking about buying people.

I don't give a shit about 'science'. It BS that science is always done in the name of humanity.

The Atomic bomb, WMDs, crappy internet pop ups, junk food and other horrors have all been done by science.

And science has not cured world hunger, poverty, and other ills besides.


Actually, that's quite incorrect.

Without Science, most of the people here would be DEAD from hunger, and the rest would be in poverty.

Science caused us to gain the principles needed to build better farming methods, farming machines, food distribution, and etc.

If not for Science, we would have never industrialized at all, and the Feudal System would still exist, where everyone is in severe poverty, starving, and only the lord gets enough to live.

90%-95% of everything you have, is from Science.

I really hope you aren't talking about buying people.

I hope you don't give any special treatment, just because of the genetics.

It doesn't matter if they're a human. So they're genetically similiar. So what? It is the sentience of Humans that is important, not their species/genetics.

It is horrible to do that stuff to anyone. PVS or not.

And why is that?

There is little other reason to be against it, then the animal's genetic make-up.

I hope you don't give any special treatment, just because of the genetics.

It doesn't matter if they're a human. So they're genetically similiar. So what? It is the sentience of Humans that is important, not their species/genetics.

The important thing is that there is no reliable scientific way to establish sentience. We don't know. I believe that life begins at conception and ends in death. Any time in between then, you have a person, who has the same rights as any other person. It is disrespectful and disgusting to me for you to call a PVS patient a "lump of flesh" likewise I find it disgusting when people call a fetus "a parasite, a disease, or a tumor"

The line should be concrete and it should be drawn at conception and death until we can find a reliable scientific way to establish sentience and even then I am thinking that it shouldn't be decided that some are not worth the dignity and rights afforded to others because someone deems them "less human".

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree and I will just pray that you never come into a position of real power in the world.

Human life > any other creature's life

The important thing is that there is no reliable scientific way to establish sentience. We don't know. I believe that life begins at conception and ends in death. Any time in between then, you have a person, who has the same rights as any other person. It is disrespectful and disgusting to me for you to call a PVS patient a "lump of flesh" likewise I find it disgusting when people call a fetus "a parasite, a disease, or a tumor"

1. I actually am VERY-Pro Life, and I am strongly against Abortion, as a Fetus can has a CHANCE of becoming Sentient, get a mind, or be concious. Don't make assumptions.

2. Thought you may find it disrespectful and disgusting, keep and mind that that is YOUR opinion, and not fact.

Human life > any other creature's life

But what really constitutes as a person, is an ongoing debate, and a controversy.

Right now, I have to go, but I'll be back tommorow.

1. I actually am VERY-Pro Life, and I am strongly against Abortion, as a Fetus can has a CHANCE of becoming Sentient, get a mind, or be concious. Don't make assumptions.

2. Thought you may find it disrespectful and disgusting, keep and mind that that is YOUR opinion, and not fact.
1. how do you explain to people your contrasting veiws when they claim that an embreyo is "just a bundle of cells, and isn't able to live outside of the womb yet" or the fact that babies can be born in PSV doesn't that negate thier potential in your book?

2. I am aware that it is my opinion, and while we are talking about facts, can you say for a fact that a PVS patient isn't sentient, maybe they have a small degree of thought/feeling and are unable to communicate. I don't think science is anywhere near being able to prove it one way or another yet.

There are so many problems with this, I'm not sure where to begin. But I'll go through a few of them.

(a) PVS is a syndrome - a set of symptoms that we think add up to something. Sometimes a person who is believed to be PVS is simply in a deep coma - one that they could come out of. This is rare, but possible. The amount of damage to the brain cannot be adequately determined without an autopsy, so we can never be completely sure if a person diagnosed with PVS can feel or not.

(b) Those in PVS are not very good models for people who are not PVS. Their brains obviously are not the same - as they are damaged. They do not metabolize things the same, as they are not using any more energy than it takes to run basic systems. Such people would respond to many drugs/procedures very differently from those who would be patients - possibly even more differently than a different species that is living normally.

(c) There are not enough people in this condition to make up even a single controlled study. First of all, they are all in this condition for different reasons - with different forms of damage. Thus, to create any type of controlled study, you would need a huge number. Secondly, you could only use them once, for one experiment. After that, you destroy any chance of control of any further study.

(d) Experiments would take too long. We can give, for instance, a mouse atherosclerosis within a couple of weeks. Why can we do this? We have genetically altered mice that have a key gene knocked out and all we have to do is make a constriction in an artery and feed them a fatty diet. In human beings, it takes half a lifetime to develop significant atherosclerosis.

(e) We don't have the type of genetic control necessary for some types of tests. In mice, we can knockout or overexpress just about any gene we can think of, unless doing so causes embryonic lethality. In this way, we can determine what these genes do and some ways to affect the processes they are a part of. We cannot do this in PVS human beings, as people aren't conceived in that state.

(f) We can't test most medical procedures, because we can't really do anything functional. Suppose I came up with a new type of design for a ligament replacement. Sure, I could put in the knee of a person with PVS, but then what? This person isn't going to be walking around. Their healing response would be different, and there would be no forces being applied that I wasn't applying myself.

I could go on and on and on.....

And this is leaving out the ethical issues with the whole thing.

The Problem is, is that Mice are not identical to Humans. In some experiments, the only possible way to do it, is to experiment on Humans.

There are very, very, very few experiments that can only be done in humans. For years, it was thought that we could only study diabetes in humans, then we made diabetic mice. SCIDS is something we have only seen naturally occurring in humans, but we have made SCIDS mice. In truth, there are precious few disease processes/injuries that cannot be studied in animals. Before we put a drug or treatment on the general market, it obviously must be tested in human beings, but the early testing doesn't have to be - and often, indeed, couldn't be.

1. I actually am VERY-Pro Life, and I am strongly against Abortion, as a Fetus can has a CHANCE of becoming Sentient, get a mind, or be concious. Don't make assumptions.

I hate to break it to you, but a person diagnosed with PVS can have a CHANCE of becoming sentient, and may in fact be somewhat sentient at the time. There is no way to diagnose a person as truly being PVS with certainty until they are already dead and you can do an autopsy.

I'm all for it, as long as they include it in their living will.

I hate to break it to you, but a person diagnosed with PVS can have a CHANCE of becoming sentient, and may in fact be somewhat sentient at the time.

Then they're not in a PVS.

The Legal Definition of a PVS in the U.S.A. is...

(12) "Persistent vegetative state" means a permanent and irreversible condition of unconsciousness in which there is:

(a) The absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of any kind.

(b) An inability to communicate or interact purposefully with the environment.

[QUOTE=Dempublicents1]There are very, very, very few experiments that can only be done in humans./QUOTE]

And the point is, there still are experiments.

We don't have too many Patients in a PVS state, so this does work out for us.

Then they're not in a PVS.

You missed the point, my dear.

PVS can only be diagnosed with certainty AFTER THE PERSON IS DEAD. Before that, we can make a pretty good determination, but quite a few people have been diagnosed as PVS and then come out of it. Unless we come up with a sure-fire diagnosis of PVS that can be used prior to death, we really can't start labeling people as ok for experiments - even if one does assume that it would be ethical even then.

And the point is, there still are experiments.

We don't have too many Patients in a PVS state, so this does work out for us.

As I already pointed out, we don't have enough patients in PVS for a single controlled experiment. Thus, there are no experiments that could adequately be carried out in PVS patients.

As I already pointed out, we don't have enough patients in PVS for a single controlled experiment. Thus, there are no experiments that could adequately be carried out in PVS patients.

Actually, in the United States, it is estimated that up to 15,000 people are in a PVS.

Serapindal, could you please give us one example of a desease or injury that could and should be studied by torturing the bodies of those PSV patients, and that cannot be studied by the conventional means?
It could really help you in this debate.

Here's the thing: yes, we experiment on rats, but we don't experiment on a private citizen's pet rat. We don't appropriate pet rats that belong to private citizens. A person in a PVS "belongs" to their designated guardian(s) or authorized relatives, NOT TO THE GOVERNMENT. Even if you want to make the argument that a person in a PVS is on par with a non-conscious lifeform (which I don't personally agree with), you still can't justify "theft" of that person from their "rightful owners" under the law.

Fantastic argument! I couldn't have said it better myself. I'd just add one corrollary, though. Guardians must look out for the welfare of their wards. Even though the guardian makes decisions for the ward, the ward still possesses his or her natural rights. The ward just can't make decisions because he or she's unable to consent, whether because of age, health or senility. In other words, the guardian can't agree to the violation of his or her ward's liberty.

Serapindal, could you please give us one example of a desease or injury that could and should be studied by torturing the bodies of those PSV patients, and that cannot be studied by the conventional means?
It could really help you in this debate.

Human Experimentation gave us the cure to Yellow Fever.

Well, seeing as if I ever ended up in a permanent vegitative state I've already decided I want to be taken off life support after a certain amount of time (a year seems reasonable), and seeing as when I die my organs are ripe for harvesting if needed... then might as well overlap those two points and send me off for research.

Actually, in the United States, it is estimated that up to 15,000 people are in a PVS.

.......source.

And again, you are working off an estimate based on diagnosis of a syndrome - which is not clear diagnosis at all.

Really, we can't do this stuff to prisoners, because it constitutes as Cruel and Unusual Punishment.

However, PVS patients can't feel it, so if we were to do stuff like Unit 731 or Mengele, it wouldn't matter, because they can't feel it, they're not sentient, and not they're not concisious, and they never will be for any three.
I think we shouldn't experiment on people at all, you sicko. You say that it would be okay to degrade the dignity of PVS people. I don't care whether or not you think they are dead, they have dignity, most likely more than you.

I think we shouldn't experiment on people at all, you sicko. You say that it would be okay to degrade the dignity of PVS people. I don't care whether or not you think they are dead, they have dignity, most likely more than you.
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President John Holtz of Holy Paradise, President of Holy Paradise
Nasicournia | UN Member | Member of the TBA Alliance and SEATO | Founding Member of the Capitalist Defense Alliance | Founding Member of the Capitalist Economic Allliance
"Its a beautiful day to kick your ass!" -"Mister Rogers" in The Simpsons episode: Missionary: Impossible
Economic Left/Right: 4.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.90

"ELMO KNOWS WHERE YOU LIVE!"

"SAVE ME JEBUS!!!"

Best. Episode. EVAR.

Anyways, back to my point.

The idea that it degrades them, is YOUR opinion. It has no validity in an argument.

I'd say go for it. Though make sure it is well publicized as a noble and good act, hopefully BEFORE they go into PVS state. That way everyone could be happy.

The idea that it degrades them, is YOUR opinion. It has no validity in an argument.

But your opinion that it doesn't has more validity?

You missed the point, my dear.

PVS can only be diagnosed with certainty AFTER THE PERSON IS DEAD. Before that, we can make a pretty good determination, but quite a few people have been diagnosed as PVS and then come out of it.Serapindal, please comment on Dempub's statement. I am really interesting in seeing your response to this.