NationStates Jolt Archive

Did all Whites find a way out first...or New-Orleans is basically all Black?

I mean no matter if its CNN or msNBC or FOX...victims left behind are 99% Black...

any comments...

New Orleans is about 99% black.

Ok, not 99%, but over 50%.

Besides, white people tend to live in wealthier neighborhoods/have boats/etc. and aren't victimized by natural disasters as much. Kind of sad, I suppose.

First, New Orleans has a larger black population than probably where ever it is you are from. Throughout the south, in fact, there is a large percent of the population that consists of African-Americans, but New Orleans is moreso than many other cities.

That said, generally, poor inner-city families that don't necessarily have the means for getting out of town are black. I'm not trying to be racist, and yes there are white families in that situation that couldn't get out, and there are black families that were able to get out, but these are just the facts.

New Orleans is about 99% black.

Ok, not 99%, but over 50%.

Besides, white people tend to live in wealthier neighborhoods/have boats/etc. and aren't victimized by natural disasters as much. Kind of sad, I suppose.

Not over 50% I looked it up. 43%

Most white people got out in their cars while some blacks dont have cars. The ones in the poor areas I mean and thats all the media show. Some whites dident get out too because they dont have cars. But most just dident want to leave!

New Orleans is about 99% black.

Ok, not 99%, but over 50%.you work for Gallup Polls Inc....dont you? :D
www.gallup.com

SEEING AS 70% YES 70% OF THE POPULATION ARE YES *ARE* BLACK. then i think you have no case.. leave the race card out of this subject.

70%+ black
20%+ white
3% hispanic

SEEING AS 70% YES 70% OF THE POPULATION ARE YES *ARE* BLACK. then i think you have no case.. leave the race card out of this subject.
Can people stop quoting percantages without linking to sources?

Not over 50% I looked it up. 43%

Most white people got out in their cars while most blacks dont have cars. The ones in the poo areas and thats all the media show.

Most "blacks" don't have cars? Where are you from...and who's buying all the spinners?

.. leave the race card out of this subject.why?

Am I making you uncomfortable?

SEEING AS 70% YES 70% OF THE POPULATION ARE YES *ARE* BLACK. then i think you have no case.. leave the race card out of this subject.
thats not true!

Most "blacks" don't have cars? Where are you from...and who's buying all the spinners?
People buying the spinners live in Los Angeles.

Anyone who doesn't live in the south, or hasn't even ever visited a major southern city, needs to shut the hell up.

SEEING AS 70% YES 70% OF THE POPULATION ARE YES *ARE* BLACK. then i think you have no case.. leave the race card out of this subject.
Race is a legitimate topic in this discussion because many black residents didn't have access to cars to take them out of the city. The vast majority of whites did. Makes a good case for Affirmative Action, no?

Most "blacks" don't have cars? Where are you from...and who's buying all the spinners?

if you look I rephrased it knowing its not true!

Race is a legitimate topic in this discussion because many black residents didn't have access to cars to take them out of the city. The vast majority of whites did. Makes a good case for Affirmative Action, no?
And the whites who did have cars had Hummers, and they had 2-3 people loaded, plus their dog, and they drove off at 2 miles to the gallon, laughing at the poor people (white and black) that they were leaving behind.

Simply an unfortunate fact that a good percentage of America's poor are minorities. The poor will always suffer more. Of course this would all be irrelavant if the government wasn't such a total imcompetent throughout this mess.

no just annoyed. i hate how people can go "blacks are suffering" like the color of their skin is why they got fucked over.. when they ARE the majority in that area

no just annoyed. i hate how people can go "blacks are suffering" like the color of their skin is why they got fucked over..interesting...

When you say "they got fucked over"...

are you talking about "the emergency funds were not unlocked fast enough"...

Why are there so many destroyed cars left in the streets?

I think many people just wanted to sit out the storm and die or survive it, but they never expected nor imagined that they would end up dehydrated and slowly be killed by the environment for a week afterwards, or else more of them would have left.

There are plenty of people that don't have cars left but there are many others that thought they would be laughing at the people that did leave by now...

interesting...

When you say "they got fucked over"...

are you talking about "the emergency funds were not unlocked fast enough"...

because the problem in the last two days has been a lack of money :rolleyes:

how about the logistical mess from out of control violence to increasing water levels, broken levies, blocked roads, no communications to and from the city, to the time it takes to organize food and transportation and get them accross the country for distribution...

no.. none of that played a role in it huh.

Race is a legitimate topic in this discussion because many black residents didn't have access to cars to take them out of the city. The vast majority of whites did. Makes a good case for Affirmative Action, no?
The folks that were looting didn't seem to have much trouble wading and swimming through the flooded streets, even with a big screen TV and fourteen pairs of Reeboks. What prevented the survivors of the hurricane from simply walking out of town after the streets started to flood? Surely, anywhere they ended up would have been better than the Superdome or the Convention center, wouldn't it? Refugees in many other nations don't seem to mind walking out of harm's way.

Why are there so many destroyed cars left in the streets?

I think many people just wanted to sit out the storm and die or survive it, but they never expected nor imagined that they would end up dehydrated and slowly be killed by the environment for a week afterwards, or else more of them would have left.

There are plenty of people that don't have cars left but there are many others that thought they would be laughing at the people that did leave by now...

Many couldn't leave. The government said, "Everyone evacuate," but didn't really do much to help anyone evacuate. With Katrina coming at the end of the month, those on fixed incomes who had little to no money left for the rest of the month (people on gov't aid - often minorities, the elderly, the injured, etc.) couldn't leave. They simply didn't have the resources.

While I'm sure there were those who thought they could just ride it out and some of them are there, there were those without the resources necessary to get out. If you look at the areas where most people stayed, you see the projects, you see hospitals, etc.

The folks that were looting didn't seem to have much trouble wading and swimming through the flooded streets, even with a big screen TV and fourteen pairs of Reeboks. What prevented the survivors of the hurricane from simply walking out of town after the streets started to flood? Surely, anywhere they ended up would have been better than the Superdome or the Convention center, wouldn't it? Refugees in many other nations don't seem to mind walking out of harm's way.
Refugees walking to camps often suffer high mortality rates too. While the water was rising there were fast currents in the streets. You can't walk through three feet of fast moving water. It will sweep you off your feet and downstream.

because the problem in the last two days has been a lack of money.Money is the main way to help them...

If you do not trust me...Call the Red Cross and ask them

because the problem in the last two days has been a lack of money :rolleyes:

how about the logistical mess from out of control violence to increasing water levels, broken levies, blocked roads, no communications to and from the city, to the time it takes to organize food and transportation and get them accross the country for distribution...

no.. none of that played a role in it huh.

It wasn't as if we didn't have any warning as to what was coming. A hurricane was going to hit and there wasn't any real preperation. Just a "shelter" at the SuperDome that was quickly unsanitary and dangerous. It is not as if the terrain of the area of New Orleans is any secret. I thought everyone knew that if a storm hit that massive flooding would occur. This is a relatively small crisis and this brought chaos to the area. Perhaps it says something of how our society is at the moment.

Did all Whites find a way out first...or New-Orleans is basically all Black?

I mean no matter if its CNN or msNBC or FOX...victims left behind are 99% Black...

any comments...
Funny you should mention this. From what I've seen on the news, most of the victims in Slidell or Grand Isle are white.

Refugees walking to camps often suffer high mortality rates too. While the water was rising there were fast currents in the streets. You can't walk through three feet of fast moving water. It will sweep you off your feet and downstream.
Fast moving water? You're right. Still there have been a couple days since the water reached equilibrium. I can't imagine staying put in a place like the shit-filled Superdome while I still had the means to walk or wade out.

I wonder if there is just a difference between folks that have had the government do everything for them but wipe their noses and those of us that have decided to be self-sufficient? That's rhetorical, of course there is a difference. The dependent people are still sitting in their own filth waiting for the government to come rescue them, all the while complaining (rightly so) that it hasn't happened fast enough.

Money is the main way to help them...

If you do not trust me...Call the Red Cross and ask them
no ocean, money is the best way for you or i, who dont live anywhere near the hurricane zone, to help out. the redcross doesnt go into destroyed neighborhoods and toss money at people. they bring medicine, food, water, blankets, toiletries etc to the people who need them.

Money is the main way to help them...

If you do not trust me...Call the Red Cross and ask them

LOL... i WORK/Volunteer for the red cross... i know. But it wasn't money not flowing that prevented help from getting to the city (for the past 4 days).. Money IS needed now (for the purpose of supplies) as the relief teams are able to get in... but the entire area around the city has been cut off blocked roads downed lines.. and the whole way to the city are people in need.

Its not about money right at the beginning.. its about access!

Now we have the access.. NOW is when the money is needed

It wasn't as if we didn't have any warning as to what was coming. A hurricane was going to hit and there wasn't any real preperation. Just a "shelter" at the SuperDome that was quickly unsanitary and dangerous. It is not as if the terrain of the area of New Orleans is any secret. I thought everyone knew that if a storm hit that massive flooding would occur. This is a relatively small crisis and this brought chaos to the area. Perhaps it says something of how our society is at the moment.

but who would have guessed it would be a category 4 - 5. Just a few days out it was only 2. The city was designed to withstand a 3. Of course we expected damage.. but not at this catastrophic level. Communication gone... and the police abonding their posts.. And with that violence spreading only further delaying the relief help.

And the most problematic part was not just the strenght of the storm but the size.. it encompassed the entire surrounding area blocking out routs to the city..w ith most bridges gone and roads blocked.. how fast can we actually get access to the city itself... 4 days is not so unreasonable (however sad it is)

If the evacuation of New Orléans was mandatory, why weren't these poor predominately black people evacuated by the authorities?

Why is there such severe poverty in the first place? What social insurance do the authorities provide in the city/USA?

Fast moving water? You're right. Still there have been a couple days since the water reached equilibrium. I can't imagine staying put in a place like the shit-filled Superdome while I still had the means to walk or wade out.

I wonder if there is just a difference between folks that have had the government do everything for them but wipe their noses and those of us that have decided to be self-sufficient? That's rhetorical, of course there is a difference. The dependent people are still sitting in their own filth waiting for the government to come rescue them, all the while complaining (rightly so) that it hasn't happened fast enough.
are you suggesting that if YOU had evacuated to the superdome you would have walked out on day 2? that you would have waded through sewage infested water to go back to your flooded out home? what would you have done? sat on the roof? or perhaps you think it would have been a good idea to try to walk out of the city altogether in the 90+ degree heat and 100% humidity. where would you have walked to? st louis? and what about the children, the disabled, the people who brought their elderly parents? have you forgotten that the superdome was for people who couldnt evacuate?

If the evacuation of New Orléans was mandatory, why weren't these poor predominately black people evacuated by the authorities?

Why is there such severe poverty in the first place? What social insurance do the authorities provide in the city/USA?

isn't that an issue to bring up to the state autorities or the mayor himself ?

this is not the job of the Federal government

According to the 2000 census the population of New Orleans is 67.25% black.

http://neworleans.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm

27.9% of Orleans Parish live below the poverty level.

http://www.fedstats.gov/qf/states/22/22071.html

People buying the spinners live in Los Angeles.

Anyone who doesn't live in the south, or hasn't even ever visited a major southern city, needs to shut the hell up.

I do and I have. But thanks.

isn't that an issue to bring up to the state autorities or the mayor himself ?

this is not the job of the Federal government

That is what I am asking. Who should be providing support to mitigate poverty in the area? Why are so many people living in such poverty in such a rich country?

are you suggesting that if YOU had evacuated to the superdome you would have walked out on day 2? that you would have waded through sewage infested water to go back to your flooded out home? what would you have done? sat on the roof? or perhaps you think it would have been a good idea to try to walk out of the city altogether in the 90+ degree heat and 100% humidity. where would you have walked to? st louis? and what about the children, the disabled, the people who brought their elderly parents? have you forgotten that the superdome was for people who couldnt evacuate?
You must be a city dweller. Helplessness seems to run rampant among you.
[edit]
I saw Soledad O'brien on CNN last Tuesday morning. She made a statement that I'm sure I can't get exactly, but it amounted to '...And some residents actually had to save their own lives by climbing on the roofs of their houses'. That cemented the idea that I had of how helpless urbanites find themselves when faced with more than a lack of theater tickets.

I would not have been in town for the hurricane. I would have evacuated when advised to do so. If, by some strange circumstance, I had been stuck in downtown New Orleans, I would have tried like hell to get out of there. I would have put my daughter on my shoulders and headed whichever way afforded the greatest protection or possibility of dry land.

Many tourists stayed in their hotels, why not head for building that were above water? When it became clear that it was possible to navigate the flooded streets --- clearly looters didn't have problems --- I would have got my family as far away from that cesspool of the Superdome or the Convention center as I possibly could.

Would that be the best choice? Would one of us become sick or die along the way? Would worse happen if we stayed put? I don't know. One can't be certain of anything in a disaster of this proportion.

The folks that were looting didn't seem to have much trouble wading and swimming through the flooded streets, even with a big screen TV and fourteen pairs of Reeboks. What prevented the survivors of the hurricane from simply walking out of town after the streets started to flood? Surely, anywhere they ended up would have been better than the Superdome or the Convention center, wouldn't it? Refugees in many other nations don't seem to mind walking out of harm's way.

Yes. Those irresponsible old people, huh? And those danger-loving infants and toddlers. All those poor children, the disabled, the veterans.

They all did it for kicks, didn't they.

Did you notice that they closed the Greyhound Bus Station on Saturday?

Yes. Those irresponsible old people, huh? And those danger-loving infants and toddlers. All those poor children, the disabled, the veterans.

They all did it for kicks, didn't they.

Did you notice that they closed the Greyhound Bus Station on Saturday?
Alright, but what about the able bodied folks? All of the survivors were certainly not wheel-chair ridden. And children can walk or swim or float. They aren't helpless unless we make them so.

That is what I am asking. Who should be providing support to mitigate poverty in the area? Why are so many people living in such poverty in such a rich country?
Because the very rich don't want taxes raised to make work for the poor and they don't want legislation passed to ensure a decent living wage is payed to every worker.

One of the problems in America is, there is virtually no mass transit public transport. So unless you own a car or are fit enough to walk for two days straight in 30 deg C heat and 100% humidity while carrying your own water, you're stuffed.

This essentially means that those who don't own cars, ie those living below the poverty line, have very little mobility. In the case of New Orleans, with a 67% black population and allowing for the fact that blacks are more likely to be trapped in poverty than whites, it meant that the black citizenry took a disproportionate share of losses.

It isn't racist to state the obvious. Obviously neither the hurricane nor the rescue workers were racists. It's just that race and poverty are inextricably linked, and the absence of public infrastructure in the US in general, for economic/ideological reasons, means that the effects were magnified.

Doomed by prevailing social phenomena, in other words.

Because the very rich don't want taxes raised to make work for the poor and they don't want legislation passed to ensure a decent living wage is payed to every worker.

Is this considered fair?

One of the problems in America is, there is virtually no mass transit public transport. So unless you own a car or are fit enough to walk for two days straight in 30 deg C heat and 100% humidity while carrying your own water, you're stuffed.

.

snipped original post

You don't actually have to carry your own water, just a small bottle of laundry bleach or swimming pool shock. A few drops added to a liter of the contaminated floodwater and shaken to mix it thoroughly will kill most everything harmfull in the water.

Alright, but what about the able bodied folks? All of the survivors were certainly not wheel-chair ridden. And children can walk or swim or float. They aren't helpless unless we make them so.

Wading/swimming through disease infested floodwater is a far worse survival plan than staying in a dry, disease infested place. And how far do you think a child will be able to walk when suffering from malnourishment?

Is this considered fair?
What's fair? I don't consider it fair because it traps generations of people in poverty by making it harder to work their way out. The rich see it as fair because they get to keep more of what they earned. Fair is in the eye of the beholder.

Alright, but what about the able bodied folks? All of the survivors were certainly not wheel-chair ridden. And children can walk or swim or float. They aren't helpless unless we make them so.

Alright, let's be realistic about this.

Most of the people who remained in New Orleans had been warned that the storm was up to Category 5, but, by then it was too late to get out, even if they could. As I said, the Greyhound Bus wasn't running, for example.

Sure, some people figured they could weather the storm... especially when it was initially Category 1.... then it just kept climbing didn't it. But, even so, those of us that live in the South have weathered these storms before, haven't we? I did last year... but it wasn't a Category 5 by the time it got to me. We have become accustomed to the scare-stories... so maybe SOME people didn't leave because they figured they'd be okay again.... and some of those people died for that choice.

What about the rest? Well - a disproportionate number of those remaining seem to be of the lesser social status. Not unlikely, after all, since New Orleans is a 'poor' place. Imagine they HAD set out from their houses. How far could they logically get, on foot, with a hurricane coming in? These are the people that CAN'T afford optimistic jaunts... maybe they don't have a car? Remember... most of these people can't afford to go stay the weekend in a hotel somewhere.... and there was no guarantee it would just be ONE WEEKEND, either.... and, as we've seen, the city is STILL dead in the water.

These people had to take chances, they had to PRAY that the storm wasn't going to be as bad as it looked. They might not have had jobs... so they might not have had ANY money to get out. They might have had jobs they couldn't afford to lose if the storm was minor. They might have illness, or disability in the family.

If you had NO MONEY... after your daring escape, where would you go? What would you eat? How would you get out of the city? How would you get out of the danger zone? Remember the projected course of the hurricane? Straight up the state. Remember tht storm front? It stretched almost all the way from the Texas border to Pensacola, Florida. WHERE do you hide?

Are you forgetting what happened to Mobile, Alabama? Sure, New Orleans got screwed, but Mobile was under 20 feet of water. Where is this 'safety' that you want the poor and weak to have escaped to?

My guess is you've never had to make a life or death decision.

My guess is you've been lucky.

Why don't you try to think WHY people would 'chose' (as you seem to think) to stay in the jaws of death?

Wading/swimming through disease infested floodwater is a far worse survival plan than staying in a dry, disease infested place. And how far do you think a child will be able to walk when suffering from malnourishment?

malnourishment? It's been a couple days fer chrissake.

snipped original post

You don't actually have to carry your own water, just a small bottle of laundry bleach or swimming pool shock. A few drops added to a liter of the contaminated floodwater and shaken to mix it thoroughly will kill most everything harmfull in the water.

I really hope nobody takes your advice.... unless you want dead people on your conscience.

found this pic... not sure if y'all have seen it yet:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanmgregory/39040535/

I really hope nobody takes your advice.... unless you want dead people on your conscience.
What? It's not true?

c. Add 8 drops of household laundry bleach per gallon, mix and let stand
for 30 minutes
from this site

http://www.majorsurplusnsurvival.com/tip%20water%20storage.htm

found this pic... not sure if y'all have seen it yet:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanmgregory/39040535/
Now there's a man who knows his priorities.

That is what I am asking. Who should be providing support to mitigate poverty in the area? Why are so many people living in such poverty in such a rich country?

We are the richest country in the world because we work of capitalism.. we COULD be more socalist like Europe... But then look at the economic condition of Europe.. far less then America. They teter on economic stability. It is simple fact Capitalism produces proverty to some level... but im saying was it really the responsibility of the Federal government to enforce a mandatory evactuation... or the State government, and the Mayor.

The mayor of New Orelans has been blasting the Federal government, meanwhile he has no power of authority as his own emergency officals have abanonded their posts in large part. And He failed to have more of those impoverished people brought to shelters and failed to have those shelters properly administered....

It seems to me politics is playing a large part of simply shifting blame.

ROFL

and this one:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanmgregory/39554198/in/photostream/

What? It's not true?

A whole world of not true, actually... it neither kills all the harmful 'bugs', nor removes all the harmful contaminents... and to add insult to injury, you're making domestic sipping-strength hypochlorous acid cocktails.

A whole world of not true, actually... it neither kills all the harmful 'bugs', nor removes all the harmful contaminents... and to add insult to injury, you're making domestic sipping-strength hypochlorous acid cocktails.
Check the "It's not true" post again. I just edited in a source that says it is.

Now there's a man who knows his priorities.

yeah... imagine when he got home:

Wife: Honey, I thought I told you to get bread and water!

Husband: Sorry, honey, but I figured that with beer, we'd kill two birds with one stone -- it's liquid bread!

We are the richest country in the world because we work of capitalism.. we COULD be more socalist like Europe... But then look at the economic condition of Europe.. far less then America. They teter on economic stability. It is simple fact Capitalism produces proverty to some level... but im saying was it really the responsibility of the Federal government to enforce a mandatory evactuation... or the State government, and the Mayor.



How are you measuring the economic condition of Europe as being far less than America? In Sweden, we have almost zero / nobody living in the extreme poverty we are seeing in some parts of USA. We pay higher taxes, for this we get public services; healthcare, free education, social welfare etc etc. In short, a society that tries to achieve equality of access and ensures that all of its inhabitants have an acceptable quality of life. To me, these seem a sensible way of balancing extreme capitalism with a system that looks after its less fortunate members.

We could quite easily cut or taxes and have a US-style system. However, we would not find it acceptable to have such levels of inequality of opportunity and to allow our society to contain such levels of poverty.

So, I would say that in Europe we have a sensible balance.

Check the "It's not true" post again. I just edited in a source that says it is.

Trust me on this one... this is my job.

What you have there is survival guide material. Is it better to risk getting messed-up by poorly treated water, or die of lack of water?

It's one of those decisions you make.... do you try to treat the wound, or do you die of the infection..... it's not a GOOD idea, but it MIGHT be better than the alternative.

Let me just add, anyone who claims to be 'purifying' water is talking through their hole. Water purifiers do nothing of the sort - but it sells better than saying "water contamination reducer". Notice that your survival site claims t=you can 'purify' water with iodine. Think about that a second. Think about what 'pure' means. See if it seems logical to you.

How are you measuring the economic condition of Europe as being far less than America? In Sweden, we have almost zero / nobody living in the extreme poverty we are seeing in some parts of USA. We pay higher taxes, for this we get public services; healthcare, free education, social welfare etc etc. In short, a society that tries to achieve equality of access and ensures that all of its inhabitants have an acceptable quality of life. To me, these seem a sensible way of balancing extreme capitalism with a system that looks after its less fortunate members.

We could quite easily cut or taxes and have a US-style system. However, we would not find it acceptable to have such levels of inequality of opportunity and to allow our society to contain such levels of poverty.

So, I would say that in Europe we have a sensible balance.

what's your unemployment rate?

A whole world of not true, actually... it neither kills all the harmful 'bugs', nor removes all the harmful contaminents... and to add insult to injury, you're making domestic sipping-strength hypochlorous acid cocktails.

Most people are forgetting that NO is an old city by American standards. It is pretty safe to assume that several of the buildings destroyed and/or flooded still had lead, asbestos, and who knows what all in them. These contaminants are now present in the flood waters. Also, take into consideration the gasoline, diesel, household and industrial chemicals, feces, urine, other bodily secretions, offal...well, you get the idea. Chlorine won't neutralize all of that!!

Trust me on this one... this is my job.

What you have there is survival guide material. Is it better to risk getting messed-up by poorly treated water, or die of lack of water?

It's one of those decisions you make.... do you try to treat the wound, or do you die of the infection..... it's not a GOOD idea, but it MIGHT be better than the alternative.

Let me just add, anyone who claims to be 'purifying' water is talking through their hole. Water purifiers do nothing of the sort - but it sells better than saying "water contamination reducer". Notice that your survival site claims t=you can 'purify' water with iodine. Think about that a second. Think about what 'pure' means. See if it seems logical to you.
Ok, It's not pure, but the impurities are reduced by the hypochlorite killing off the bacteria, right? Granted, I wouldn't want to drink the crap if I don't have to, but in an emergency it's better than straight sewer water.

Most people are forgetting that NO is an old city by American standards. It is pretty safe to assume that several of the buildings destroyed and/or flooded still had lead, asbestos, and who knows what all in them. These contaminants are now present in the flood waters. Also, take into consideration the gasoline, diesel, household and industrial chemicals, feces, urine, other bodily secretions, offal...well, you get the idea. Chlorine won't neutralize all of that!!

In fact, since most of the contaminants would be organics of some kind, you're actually just going to end up 'slightly reducing' the levels of most of them, while simultaneously ADDING disinfection byproducts like Tri-Halomethanes.

Most people are forgetting that NO is an old city by American standards. It is pretty safe to assume that several of the buildings destroyed and/or flooded still had lead, asbestos, and who knows what all in them. These contaminants are now present in the flood waters. Also, take into consideration the gasoline, diesel, household and industrial chemicals, feces, urine, other bodily secretions, offal...well, you get the idea. Chlorine won't neutralize all of that!!
Good point. So carrying bottled water sounds like a plan.

what's your unemployment rate?

6,9%, which I am sure you will tell me is higher than the USA. But, as I said above, the difference is that an unemployed person in the USA gets almost no support and is left in poverty. An unemployed person here will receive support to ensure they do not endure poverty and also to find them another job.

In fact, since most of the contaminants would be organics of some kind, you're actually just going to end up 'slightly reducing' the levels of most of them, while simultaneously ADDING disinfection byproducts like Tri-Halomethanes.
Got it.

In fact, since most of the contaminants would be organics of some kind, you're actually just going to end up 'slightly reducing' the levels of most of them, while simultaneously ADDING disinfection byproducts like Tri-Halomethanes.

Health officials are warning that the water is too contaminated to be treated and made drinkable. They are also warning of contact to skin and the high risk of disease if you have an open wound or are splashed in the eyes or any mucous membrane.

Ok, It's not pure, but the impurities are reduced by the hypochlorite killing off the bacteria, right? Granted, I wouldn't want to drink the crap if I don't have to, but in an emergency it's better than straight sewer water.

No - you might actually have a better chance with sewer water... although I wouldn't want to advise that, either.

Chlorine won't affect the lead levels, won't touch a whole slew of inorganics, will have negligible effects on things like cryptosporidium, and will create all kinds of nice byproducts from organic reactions.

And you aren't even talking chlorine... you are talking a chlorine product. I wouldn't even want to guess at the efficiency of chlorite as a water disinfectant.

Seriously - steal a couple gallons of bottled water. Risk getting shot, rather than drink standing water that you treated with Clorox.

Can you imagine how much fiberglass insulation is floating around in that mess? Can you imagine what the gangs roaming around and creating chaos are going to find has invaded their...uh...errr....winky dinkys?

How are you measuring the economic condition of Europe as being far less than America? In Sweden, we have almost zero / nobody living in the extreme poverty we are seeing in some parts of USA. We pay higher taxes, for this we get public services; healthcare, free education, social welfare etc etc. In short, a society that tries to achieve equality of access and ensures that all of its inhabitants have an acceptable quality of life. To me, these seem a sensible way of balancing extreme capitalism with a system that looks after its less fortunate members.

We could quite easily cut or taxes and have a US-style system. However, we would not find it acceptable to have such levels of inequality of opportunity and to allow our society to contain such levels of poverty.

So, I would say that in Europe we have a sensible balance.

Really... look at the economic status of the rest of europe... france, Germany, italy all teeter on economic disaster as their deficts grow and their public sectors swell. They can't even meet the minimum requirements of the EU. You picking out sweeden which by contrast has a vastly smaller to that of the US and the rest of europe.. its like picking out single state in the face of the entire union... If you think along these terms New York would be a symbol of success for American capitalism as it is a vastly wealthy and resilient state and we are far more capitalistic then Sweeden and New York alone has nearly Double the population of all of Sweeden.

You have to look at Europe as a whole or the EU on a whole and compare it to the US then just one small nation which is comparable to one of our states.

Hurricanes are not racially biased and water always flows downhill.

The first big New York blackout featured virtually no violence. The second, featured some of the worst looting, violence and arson apart from the LA riots. In some ways, it was even worse.

The biggest differences between the two are demographics. Bill Cosby had a point, this segment of the population has a certain social structure which prevents them from assimilating effectively. He may have been wrong about the cause however, if you look behind the scenes of “Gangsta Rap”, you will find a rich white guy who is more than happy to cheer them on. His name is Ted Field, AKA Fredrick Woodruff Field, though I should point out that Jimmy Iovine is the actual brain making it possible.

If you fire at a helicopter coming in to evacuate you, it is your own problem, but these guys are all a bunch of suckers anyway. They need to make Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice and Bill Cosby role models and kick Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakhan, out on the curb. Then they will be able to help and take responsibility for themselves.

6,9%, which I am sure you will tell me is higher than the USA. But, as I said above, the difference is that an unemployed person in the USA gets almost no support and is left in poverty. An unemployed person here will receive support to ensure they do not endure poverty and also to find them another job.

this is simply said false... We do infact have welfare here in the united states... obviously if your unemployed this is not something ment to live on.. but meant to sustain you till you find your next job.. THAT is the difference.

Really... look at the economic status of the rest of europe... france, Germany, italy all teeter on economic disaster as their deficts grow and their public sectors swell. They can't even meet the minimum requirements of the EU. You picking out sweeden which by contrast has a vastly smaller to that of the US and the rest of europe.. its like picking out single state in the face of the entire union... If you think along these terms New York would be a symbol of success for American capitalism as it is a vastly wealthy and resilient state and we are far more capitalistic then Sweeden and New York alone has nearly Double the population of all of Sweeden.

You have to look at Europe as a whole or the EU on a whole and compare it to the US then just one small nation which is comparable to one of our states.
There is no extreme poverty in United Kingdom or Germany for example either. I really don't think it is fair to suggest that F, D or I face economic disaster iminantly.

I offer Sweden as an example not because of size. I don't think that is relevant to this conversation. The system could be easily applied to a larger population.

But most just dident want to leave!

Have you taken a poll or are you just making a wild guess about a bunch of strangers?

No - you might actually have a better chance with sewer water... although I wouldn't want to advise that, either.

Chlorine won't affect the lead levels, won't touch a whole slew of inorganics, will have negligible effects on things like cryptosporidium, and will create all kinds of nice byproducts from organic reactions.

And you aren't even talking chlorine... you are talking a chlorine product. I wouldn't even want to guess at the efficiency of chlorite as a water disinfectant.

Seriously - steal a couple gallons of bottled water. Risk getting shot, rather than drink standing water that you treated with Clorox.

this is a common sentiment that I keep seeing repeated. Does anyone honestly believe that there is any bottled water or food left? Folks grabbed those for survival first thing, and I doubt if anyone would fault them for it. The "looters" that are creating such havoc, are actually roving gangs. They have stolen guns and ammunition from every source available and are roaming around killing, raping, and terrorizing. They have been laying seige and breaking into hospitals to steal the drugs. People trying to forage for survival are not the problem and are not the target of the National Guard. The Guard is there to take control of the city and stop the thugs that have declared war on innocent civilians.

Hurricanes are not racially biased and water always flows downhill.

The first big New York blackout featured virtually no violence. The second, featured some of the worst looting, violence and arson apart from the LA riots. In some ways, it was even worse.

The biggest differences between the two are demographics. Bill Cosby had a point, this segment of the population has a certain social structure which prevents them from assimilating effectively. He may have been wrong about the cause however, if you look behind the scenes of “Gangsta Rap”, you will find a rich white guy who is more than happy to cheer them on. His name is Ted Field, AKA Fredrick Woodruff Field, though I should point out that Jimmy Iovine is the actual brain making it possible.

If you fire at a helicopter coming in to evacuate you, it is your own problem, but these guys are all a bunch of suckers anyway. They need to make Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice and Bill Cosby role models and kick Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakhan, out on the curb. Then they will be able to help and take responsibility for themselves.


The interesting part is those people (Jessie Jackson, Al SHarpton, Louis Farrakhan) are the ones isolating the role models Rice Cosby and Powell should be claiming they are more white then black.

this is simply said false... We do infact have welfare here in the united states... obviously if your unemployed this is not something ment to live on.. but meant to sustain you till you find your next job.. THAT is the difference.
I didn't say you do not have welfare. I said it is not sufficient to avoid the large numbers of people living in unacceptable poverty. If it was sufficient, there wouldn't be the large numbers of people in poverty...

this is simply said false... We do infact have welfare here in the united states... obviously if your unemployed this is not something ment to live on.. but meant to sustain you till you find your next job.. THAT is the difference.

IMO, unending welfare is a major contributing factor to poverty. We now have families that have not had a working head of household for 4 generations. Welfare provides what a family needs to exist on until they can care for themselves. It does not provide any more than the necessities. We have a segment of our society that does not understand the work ethic and believe that they live in poverty because charity does not provide more.

I think racism played no role in why so many black people remain in NO. It's more of a socio-economic problem than racism.

The city attempted to provide enough shelters - there were 10 or so, with the Superdome the stated shelter of last resort. The idea is that you don't need to evacuate if you have adequate shelter and sustenance. Unfortunately they underestimated the number of people who would remain.

It is no more than 5 miles between the furthest points of the city. Most people could make it to shelters, but the city should have considered having transport for the minority who couldn't walk.

I see the city as having more responsibility for the safety of citizens than the federal government, though I think it's too early to assign blame. There needs to be a thorough review of emergency plans when this is done.

Not only that most victims are (at least seem to be) black, the 'security' forces on the other hand are mostly white. So the responsibility assignment is, black loot - white shoot?

There is no extreme poverty in United Kingdom or Germany for example either. I really don't think it is fair to suggest that F, D or I face economic disaster iminantly.

I offer Sweden as an example not because of size. I don't think that is relevant to this conversation. The system could be easily applied to a larger population.

It has.. and yet has failed... The larger countries of France and Germany are testimetns to that. No country has a beter healthcare system then France, yet the French government can no longer sustain it. I bring up sweedens size because it is relevant. Those systems are more effective with smaller more contained and controlable economies.. but on a larger scale they are far less effecitve.

Yes there maybe less or no extreme poverty in the United Kingdom or Germany.. but look at the levels of unemployment... Germany sufferes double diget unemployment!

The economic realities of Europe are a travesty and fortell a dismal future unless they become more Capitalistic.. China is nearly equal today to the rate of investment in research then that of Europe.. European companies struggle far more to compete in the global economy then American comapanies because of regulations and powerful unions which strangle economic growth. Sure your public sectors are great.. but if there are no economics behind them to support it... they eventually fall (look at France)

Your economy does well now.. but if these other socialist countries collapse your currency will be worthless and it wille ventually galvanize your own economy.

It has.. and yet has failed... The larger countries of France and Germany are testimetns to that. No country has a beter healthcare system then France, yet the French government can no longer sustain it. I bring up sweedens size because it is relevant. Those systems are more effective with smaller more contained and controlable economies.. but on a larger scale they are far less effecitve.

Yes there maybe less or no extreme poverty in the United Kingdom or Germany.. but look at the levels of unemployment... Germany sufferes double diget unemployment!

The economic realities of Europe are a travesty and fortell a dismal future unless they become more Capitalistic.. China is nearly equal today to the rate of investment in research then that of Europe.. European companies struggle far more to compete in the global economy then American comapanies because of regulations and powerful unions which strangle economic growth. Sure your public sectors are great.. but if there are no economics behind them to support it... they eventually fall (look at France)

Your economy does well now.. but if these other socialist countries collapse your currency will be worthless and it wille ventually galvanize your own economy.

We don't have the euro here by the way... we should have...

Yes, there is higher unemployment, but there is less poverty. You seem to suggest that poverty is a price worth paying for some people in society to be richer than they actually need to be in order to live comfortably. You also suggest that you sacrifice equality of access to services etc for this. I just don't agree, and nor do the majority of people here. Perhaps we have a stronger feeling of solidarity with our fellow human beings.

this is a common sentiment that I keep seeing repeated. Does anyone honestly believe that there is any bottled water or food left? Folks grabbed those for survival first thing, and I doubt if anyone would fault them for it. The "looters" that are creating such havoc, are actually roving gangs. They have stolen guns and ammunition from every source available and are roaming around killing, raping, and terrorizing. They have been laying seige and breaking into hospitals to steal the drugs. People trying to forage for survival are not the problem and are not the target of the National Guard. The Guard is there to take control of the city and stop the thugs that have declared war on innocent civilians.

I wasn't recommending that stealing bottles of water was a long-term solution. From what I can see, most of the early looting was survival, and most of the latter looting has been opportunism.

The former I cannot condemn, the latter I can't condone.

I think racism played no role in why so many black people remain in NO. It's more of a socio-economic problem than racism.

The city attempted to provide enough shelters - there were 10 or so, with the Superdome the stated shelter of last resort. The idea is that you don't need to evacuate if you have adequate shelter and sustenance. Unfortunately they underestimated the number of people who would remain.

It is no more than 5 miles between the furthest points of the city. Most people could make it to shelters, but the city should have considered having transport for the minority who couldn't walk.

I see the city as having more responsibility for the safety of citizens than the federal government, though I think it's too early to assign blame. There needs to be a thorough review of emergency plans when this is done.

To be fair, the actual threat of Katrina was not realized until about 24 hours before it hit. Mandatory evacuation was ordered, buses were made available to transport people to shelters, and workers went door to door to urge people to leave, offer them transportation. Those that refused were asked to sign release of responsibility forms. Hotlines were established and broadcast for people with special needs to request transportation. People were urged to see to their neighbors and help them if they could. There wasn't enough time to get everyone out, but frantic efforts were made. I can't help but wonder how many of the people at hurricane parties that newscasters interviewed on Sunday night are now dead. I wonder if they sobered up long enough to realize they were dying.

I didn't say you do not have welfare. I said it is not sufficient to avoid the large numbers of people living in unacceptable poverty. If it was sufficient, there wouldn't be the large numbers of people in poverty...
how do you decide what acceptable poverty is?

in the US the poor get housing, food, medical care, education for their children, phone, tv, radio. they are warm and dry, they have all the clothing they need.

what more should a person get for free?

I wasn't recommending that stealing bottles of water was a long-term solution. From what I can see, most of the early looting was survival, and most of the latter looting has been opportunism.

The former I cannot condemn, the latter I can't condone.

I read an article in the local newspaper earlier this week (Wednesday I think) concerning a Walmart that was looted. The store reported that every gun, knife and box of ammunition had been stolen, as well as every drop of beer and wine. But there were still a few grocery items on the shelves as well as a few cases of Walmart brand soda. There was no mention of other departments.

Edit: You do realize that we are on the same page and that I'm not arguing with you?

It has.. and yet has failed... The larger countries of France and Germany are testimetns to that. No country has a beter healthcare system then France, yet the French government can no longer sustain it. I bring up sweedens size because it is relevant. Those systems are more effective with smaller more contained and controlable economies.. but on a larger scale they are far less effecitve.

Germany has a very good and yet also very efficient healthcare system, as compared to 13 other highly-industrialized countries (USA too) according to a study of the IGSF (http://www.igsf.de/Band104-lang.pdf) . Economic competitiveness doesn't require the healthcare system to be lousy.


Yes there maybe less or no extreme poverty in the United Kingdom or Germany.. but look at the levels of unemployment... Germany sufferes double diget unemployment!

Baring in mind that there are many underemployed people and most unemployed persons are not registered, it is obvious that the unemployment rate is much lower in the USA.

To be fair, the actual threat of Katrina was not realized until about 24 hours before it hit. Mandatory evacuation was ordered, buses were made available to transport people to shelters, and workers went door to door to urge people to leave, offer them transportation. Those that refused were asked to sign release of responsibility forms. Hotlines were established and broadcast for people with special needs to request transportation. People were urged to see to their neighbors and help them if they could. There wasn't enough time to get everyone out, but frantic efforts were made. I can't help but wonder how many of the people at hurricane parties that newscasters interviewed on Sunday night are now dead. I wonder if they sobered up long enough to realize they were dying.

You raise good points. I was suggesting that the city has the primary responsibility for safety of citizens, not the federal government. The fact remains that governments can only do so much, and I think reasonable efforts were made to provide for citizens. It didn't work perfectly, but they tried.

Many people who didn't go to shelter could have, and much earlier. They didn't have to leave the city to seek safety, vehicles were not required.

There will be a lot of professional review given to the emergency plans, and improvements will be made for the future. The finger pointing that has begun isn't constructive at this time.

You raise good points. I was suggesting that the city has the primary responsibility for safety of citizens, not the federal government. The fact remains that governments can only do so much, and I think reasonable efforts were made to provide for citizens. It didn't work perfectly, but they tried.

Many people who didn't go to shelter could have, and much earlier. They didn't have to leave the city to seek safety, vehicles were not required.

There will be a lot of professional review given to the emergency plans, and improvements will be made for the future. The finger pointing that has begun isn't constructive at this time.

Truth is, NO has been hit by hurricanes before, but it has never been devastated like it was this time. Needed precautions were shoved to the back burner in favor of more pressing or timely needs. "It can't happen to me" attitude is a common human trait that bites us in the butt once in a while. Well, we got snacked. We can waste our time finger pointing or we can expend our energies in making sure this never happens again.

May be a little offtopic but heres a nice little example of racism in the press

http://photos23.flickr.com/38725768_16c66eb58b.jpg

As for the original topic of this thread, NO has a predominantly black population, and one of the highest poverty rates in the nation. It has also been plagued with financial problems for several years. Police corruption has been a problem, and gangs, violence, and crime have been rampant. NO is a fun town but it has long been recognized as a dangerous town. You can draw obvious parallels between race, poverty, crime, and our welfare system. It can also be noted that violence oriented music gained its foothold in poor black communities...but have you seen one rap artist asking for the violence to stop in devastated New Orleans? Hell, they're too busy shooting each other!! Bill Cosby has it right, and his message doesn't just apply to the black community.

Alright, let's be realistic about this.

My guess is you've never had to make a life or death decision.

My guess is you've been lucky.

Why don't you try to think WHY people would 'chose' (as you seem to think) to stay in the jaws of death?
Nice tirade. Feel better? And don't ever presume that you know what my experience is. The fact that I'm willing to lead my family to safety says something about my confidence in my ability. The fact that my wife didn't argue with me when I brought it up says something about her confidence in me. We argue a lot, but you wouldn't know that.

You, too, seem to be one of the helpless. That attitude, and a little luck at the right time, is the difference between people that survive and people that become victims.

There are, even now, places in New Orleans that are safer than the slums that were the Superdome and the Convention Center. One doesn't need to make the trek to P'cola or Tallahassee to be safe. Only to the Hilton or the Prudential building, or maybe some other obscure and above water spot. In fact, the French Quarter is dry, not flooded I mean. Heaven forbid that they should stop drinking...

And as far as disease goes, so what? Diseases take time to incubate. I've caught crap from water that made me sick, but treatment can cure most anything that you can catch from that sort of water. The odds of recovering from even drinking that crap is a lot better than recovering from being shot dead by some predator in the projects.

Like I said, you're either a victim or a survivor. It helps to have some training and some luck, but it's essential to have the right attitude.

I really hope nobody takes your advice.... unless you want dead people on your conscience.
You're absolutely right. No one should ever use anything that isn't wrapped up in a government package.

Yes, I would with the racist slant presented in those two pictures.

What is a person supposed to do if thier house is flooded, they have no supplies no where to go, and thier family needs water, food, diapers ect.... "looting" vs. "finding" very subjective.

I can even understand the hopelessness that leads to carting off a trunk full of beer. Not saying it's the best choice.....

I have been to New Orleans twice, and being a student from the pacific northwest I was shocked at the poverty, and the living conditions. At the division of class and race. Alot of the housing projects looked like they were ready to fall down, and some units were burnt and boarded up while other tenants still lived in the buildings. It was just the way things were, and that is a shame. The public schools in New Orleans are all black, while the private schools are white.

The south still seems a very racist and segragated ( by choice it seemed) place.

Louisiana does not substidize ssi checks, welfare grants are some of the worst in the nation. There are no food banks like up here. Everything seems to take forever... it's very slow down there.

Alot of the black people I saw down there work, some two or more jobs at the downtown hotels, casinos and restaraunts. The city busses were packed with them going to and from work. How do I know ? because most wore thier uniforms, and I spoke with them.

It's very sad. New Orleans is one of a kind......

May be a little offtopic but heres a nice little example of racism in the press

http://photos23.flickr.com/38725768_16c66eb58b.jpg

To qualify myself, my oldest and dearest friend of 34 years is black, and my husband is Creole which means that he's Cajun with black heritage. He looks pretty white though, until he lets his hair grow out. :D

That said, over 70% of our nation's criminal prisoners are black. Over 80% of the violent offenders are black. A lady I work with is criticized by her family for trying to "act" white. She dresses appropriately for her position, she speaks proper well enunciated English, she conducts herself in a self-confident professional manner, she uses every opportunity to enhance her education, and she is raising all 4 of her children (all of whom are in the Gifted and Talented program at school) to "act" white. Her sister, who is really a lovely person, comes by the office once in a while. She dresses, in my OLO (old lady opinion), in a sexually provocative manner, slurs her speech and relies on slang, and is usually there asking her sister for money because her welfare check didn't cover all of her bills. Our office offered her a job from 10-2 as a part time receptionist. She turned down the job claiming that she wanted to be at home with her children, both of whom are in junior high school. Sadly, this is a common scenerio and an ingrained mindset in our black communities. The "racism" that you have noted is actually stereotyping.

Yeah there is alot of Black people in New Orleans I heard on the news that the buses that are being moved to the City and Black people are saying that only whites are getting to the bus

Yeah there is alot of Black people in New Orleans I heard on the news that the buses that are being moved to the City and Black people are saying that only whites are getting to the bus

And yet, when we see video of the people loading and offloading the buses, they are by a vast majority black.

Yes, I would agree with you Zooke about the "stereotyping". I am white so I don't have any "cred" , but sadly what you mentioned about the woman turning down the job happens all too often. Why?

Like I mentioned earlier, I thought the conditions in New Orleans as a whole for poor black people were terrible to begin with. The worst I'd ever seen... I feel inner city poor blacks are even becoming victims of thier own brand of stereo typing of them selves~ all the hard-core rap images of money, heavy drinking, sex without consquence, respect and what happens when you don't percieve you get it. Nothing means anything anymore. "Life is cheap" as 50 Cent said. That is sad.

I believe the root of all this is of course ( not an exuse thou) is the oppression blacks have experienced in this country from the time they were kidnapped from Africa and made slaves in the south thru the civil rights movements to this day.

And nowhere, to me, is it most obvious but in the south. Everybody should go there at least once. It will open your eyes.

The racism I see on these threads and in society is mostly aimed at whites and in some cases Asians and mideastern Asians for working hard, prospering, and enjoying the benefits of their efforts. At some point improving your lot in life has become politically incorrect.

Yes, I would agree with you Zooke about the "stereotyping". I am white so I don't have any "cred" , but sadly what you mentioned about the woman turning down the job happens all too often. Why?

Like I mentioned earlier, I thought the conditions in New Orleans as a whole for poor black people were terrible to begin with. The worst I'd ever seen... I feel inner city poor blacks are even becoming victims of thier own brand of stereo typing of them selves~ all the hard-core rap images of money, heavy drinking, sex without consquence, respect and what happens when you don't percieve you get it. Nothing means anything anymore. "Life is cheap" as 50 Cent said. That is sad.

I believe the root of all this is of course ( not an exuse thou) is the oppression blacks have experienced in this country from the time they were kidnapped from Africa and made slaves in the south thru the civil rights movements to this day.

And nowhere, to me, is it most obvious but in the south. Everybody should go there at least once. It will open your eyes.

I live in the south, and I see blacks supressing themselves more than I see "the man" holding them down. This level of illiteracy and poverty is not present in any other minority other than newly immigrated Hispanics. Even new immigrants, if they make a permanent home in the US, usually end up succeeding in making a comfortable lives for themselves. The missing element in a portion of the black community is "work ethic". It has been replaced with "you owe me".

May be a little offtopic but heres a nice little example of racism in the press

http://photos23.flickr.com/38725768_16c66eb58b.jpg

Note that one photo/caption set is AP, the other AFP. I'm not saying we can completely rule out racism, but the evidence is far from conclusive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans#Demographics
"The racial makeup of the city is 28.05% White, 67.25% African American, 0.20% Native American, 2.26% Asian, 0.02% Pacific Islander, 0.93% from other races, and 1.28% from two or more races. 3.06% of the population are Hispanic or Latino of any race."

In addition to that, nearly 30 percent of the city is underneathe the poverty line. I am willing to bet that the vast majority of those living underneathe the poverty line are from a minority group.

Poverty, however, does not forgive lawlessness and looting. Looters are wreaking havok on the city and on the people. These looters also make helping the survivors immensely difficult; if the people cant cooperate then there is no reason to help them.

In regards to that picture comparing news stories. The girl in the second picture does not look white, imho; she looks latino.

I do and I have. But thanks.


Washington D.C. is not "south" so no you don't live in the south.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans#Demographics
"The racial makeup of the city is 28.05% White, 67.25% African American, 0.20% Native American, 2.26% Asian, 0.02% Pacific Islander, 0.93% from other races, and 1.28% from two or more races. 3.06% of the population are Hispanic or Latino of any race."

In addition to that, nearly 30 percent of the city is underneathe the poverty line. I am willing to bet that the vast majority of those living underneathe the poverty line are from a minority group.

Poverty, however, does not forgive lawlessness and looting. Looters are wreaking havok on the city and on the people. These looters also make helping the survivors immensely difficult; if the people cant cooperate then there is no reason to help them.

In regards to that picture comparing news stories. The girl in the second picture does not look white, imho; she looks latino.

I think you have it wrong. The Minorities (WHITES) in NO all left except for a few individuals, many in the majority (black) stayed....thinking they would 'ride out the storm and have a good time'.

Washington D.C. is not "south" so no you don't live in the south.
yes it is

the mason-dixon line seperates pennsylvannia from maryland.

First, New Orleans has a larger black population than probably where ever it is you are from. Throughout the south, in fact, there is a large percent of the population that consists of African-Americans, but New Orleans is moreso than many other cities.

That said, generally, poor inner-city families that don't necessarily have the means for getting out of town are black. I'm not trying to be racist, and yes there are white families in that situation that couldn't get out, and there are black families that were able to get out, but these are just the facts.
Indiana has a lot of mexican loaded towns

I think you have it wrong. The Minorities (WHITES) in NO all left except for a few individuals, many in the majority (black) stayed....thinking they would 'ride out the storm and have a good time'.
Wonderful. All dem niggers just wanted to go a lootin after the storm while whity was away, right?

Even though the Feds response has been slow. That is the way of the Federal Government. Why did the City and state have a plan in place to begin with. After all it is a city built below sea level. The poorest of the poor always suffer the most in any diaster.

let me tell you a story.

About 16 years ago I was in an auto accident that left me with more broken bones and damaged organs than whole ones. The femur (thigh bone) and hip of my right leg was shattered into a zillion pieces. 2 doctors had recommended amputation at the hip, until I found a doctor, newly immigrated to Arkansas from Austria, who had a procedure involving sea coral. He claimed that he could save my leg. Well, 5 surgeries and 2 years later, I stood up and walked (hobbled) on my own leg. It hurt then, and it hurts a little now, but I walk on my own 2 legs. I lost my cute little wiggle, but I don't limp anymore, and I don't need the wiggle. Anyway, for almost 3 years, my oldest son's wife...the best daughter-in-law that any woman ever had...took on my responsibilites as well as her own. She took care of her husband, their 2 girls, me, my youngest son who was in high school, my husband, our home, and everything else. She made me follow all doctor's orders, made sure I was at all doctor's appointments, helped me with my physical therapy, and took on the responsibility of running a smooth efficient family operation. After almost 3 years of doing nothing, one day I wanted to run into town and do a little shopping. My daughter-in-law was busy elsewhere and I was more than a little put out. Then, suddenly, it occurred to me that I could do for myself, by myself. Nothing was stopping me except my own dependency on other people. Out of love, my family had helped me forget that I was self-sufficient and quite capable. Have we, out of compassion, robbed a segment of our society of the assurance that they "can do"?

yes it is

the mason-dixon line seperates pennsylvannia from maryland.

My oldest son lives outside of DC in Maryland and he is always trying to convince me they live in the "south". All the folks up there have to do is speak and we know them for what they are...yankees.

If the evacuation of New Orléans was mandatory, why weren't these poor predominately black people evacuated by the authorities?

Why is there such severe poverty in the first place? What social insurance do the authorities provide in the city/USA?
I won't answer the poverty question, as you'll disagree with me. But "mandatory evacuations" are a joke. No one enforces them, and several people stay because they either don't want to move, can't afford it, or most of the time, they don't believe anything will happen. I have an acquantaince in Biloxi that did the last one. His house is fine, but his neighbor's is gone. And this house rode out all the big ones, from Camille to Ivan. It lulls you into a security bubble.

My oldest son lives outside of DC in Maryland and he is always trying to convince me they live in the "south". All the folks up there have to do is speak and we know them for what they are...yankees.
What, because we didn't side with the confederates during the Civil War?

Have we, out of compassion, robbed a segment of our society of the assurance that they "can do"?

Just a theory, but it seems to me that what's motivated US policy towards African Americans has been a pretty twisted policy of fear and pity. "Give them the social welfare cheques and some compensation but don't let them into anything too important, because they're different and scary and probably angry about that whole slavery thing." What you've basically done is try to buy off the section of the community you think might rob your house. Yeah, you've created a dependency, but I'm not sure there was much compassion invlved.

Why do people have to make everyhting racial?
Now natural disasters are discriminating?
That's really stupid, using race is just a lame excuse to get something you want.
Unless the people (not weather) tell the world that what they are doing is purposely discriminating and they say that they are racist and mean it, they probably aren't trying to discriminate against a race.


:mp5: :sniper: :mp5:
The Armed Republic Of Cruel Tyrany

Unless the people (not weather) tell the world that what they are doing is purposely discriminating and they say that they are racist and mean it, they probably aren't trying to discriminate against a race.


So it's not possible for people to ever be hypocritical on the issue of race?

when I started this debate...CNN was not touching the Race factor...

but lately they cant scape it...

Rite now there is a Black lady...an Ohio congresswoman...She is giving the "Black" point of view...

Basically Black leaders are saying that the Bush and the Feds let them down...

comments?

Basically Black leaders are saying that the Bush and the Feds let them down...

comments?
They let the poor down. The poor just happened to be mostly black. But that is down to inadequate government in general, you could spread the blame all the way back to the 1950s, maybe even all the way back to the half-hearted abolition of slavery.

Even though the Feds response has been slow. That is the way of the Federal Government.How fast....and how many FBI agents the Feds sent to Aruba? (unrequested by the local authorities...which already had several police ressources dedicated to the case).

For 1 white Girl?

They let the poor down. The poor just happened to be mostly black. But that is down to inadequate government in general, you could spread the blame all the way back to the 1950s, maybe even all the way back to the half-hearted abolition of slavery.

Agreed, although I'm not sure about "just happened".

Agreed, although I'm not sure about "just happened".


Looters are being labeled as "oportunists" maybe our government is somewhat taking advantage that it "just happened" in New Orleans as well.

Question "authority".

I won't answer the poverty question, as you'll disagree with me. But "mandatory evacuations" are a joke. No one enforces them, and several people stay because they either don't want to move, can't afford it, or most of the time, they don't believe anything will happen. I have an acquantaince in Biloxi that did the last one. His house is fine, but his neighbor's is gone. And this house rode out all the big ones, from Camille to Ivan. It lulls you into a security bubble.

This is a debating forum... you are allowed (perhaps one could say even positively encouraged to) disagree with other posters, so long as you do so in an engaging and thought-provoking mannor (rather than the silly retorts such as 'Borgoa you are just an anti-American, socialist etc etc)...

Anyway, I just wanted to quote this, I just read it as part of an excellent report on the BBC's website:

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Uneasy paradox

It is astonishing to me that so many Americans seem shocked by the existence of such concentrated poverty and social neglect in their own country.

In the workout room of the condo where I am currently staying in the affluent LA neighbourhood of Santa Monica, an executive and his personal trainer ignored the anguished television reports blaring above their heads on Friday evening.

Either they did not care, or it was somehow too painful to discuss.

When President Bush told "Good Morning America" on Thursday morning that nobody could have "anticipated" the breach of the New Orleans levees, it pointed to not only a remote leader in denial, but a whole political class.

The uneasy paradox which so many live with in this country - of being first-and-foremost rugged individuals, out to plunder what they can and paying as little tax as they can get away with, while at the same time believing that America is a robust, model society - has reached a crisis point this week.

Will there be real investment, or just more buck-passing between federal agencies and states?

The country has to choose whether it wants to rebuild the levees and destroyed communities, with no expense spared for the future - or once again brush off that responsibility, and blame the other guy.

----
The full dispatch is at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/americas/4210674.stm

This is what I was trying to get at in my earlier posts. Do Americans really find it an acceptable compromise that the rich get to live in great prosperity whilst society takes no collective responsibility for its less fortunate members? This seems to be why there is so much extreme poverty in a country that is the world's richest. It's very hard to understand for me.

when I started this debate...CNN was not touching the Race factor...

but lately they cant scape it...

Rite now there is a Black lady...an Ohio congresswoman...She is giving the "Black" point of view...

Basically Black leaders are saying that the Bush and the Feds let them down...

comments?

Who cares?

The country has to choose whether it wants to rebuild the levees and destroyed communities, with no expense spared for the future - or once again brush off that responsibility, and blame the other guy.

My guess is that there will be alot of talk about helping the poor in NO and even some worthwhile projects started up but as time goes on (repair of New Orleans will take years), it will be forgotten about as other issues of seemingly greater import will pop up and garner the peoples' attention. The poor will be forgotten about, the projects' funding will be cut and delayed and everything will go back to what it once was.

New Orleans is a very blue city in a red state but one sees very few white people awaiting rescue at the Civic Center and Super Dome. That's because whites, by and large, don't want to live with "those kind of people" and it doesn't matter if the whites are liberal, moderate or conservative.

My guess is that there will be alot of talk about helping the poor in NO and even some worthwhile projects started up but as time goes on (repair of New Orleans will take years), it will be forgotten about as other issues of seemingly greater import will pop up and garner the peoples' attention. The poor will be forgotten about, the projects' funding will be cut and delayed and everything will go back to what it once was.

I sincerely doubt it, New Orleans is one of the eminent cities of the USA, it attracts tourism, industry and immigrants, I cannot believe that Bush would act so callously (actually, on reflection, I can, but not his administration). Furthermore, it would secure the republicans votes from the south in 2008, and accordingly it will be repaired eventually.

I sincerely doubt it, New Orleans is one of the eminent cities of the USA, it attracts tourism, industry and immigrants, I cannot believe that Bush would act so callously (actually, on reflection, I can, but not his administration). Furthermore, it would secure the republicans votes from the south in 2008, and accordingly it will be repaired eventually.

Oh, I'm not saying New Orleans won't be repaired. What I'm saying is there will be much talk about improving the lives of the poor blacks there at first and maybe some projects started that will benefit them but as time goes on, they will be forgotten about and it will all go back to how it once was.

Oh, I'm not saying New Orleans won't be repaired. What I'm saying is there will be much talk about improving the lives of the poor blacks there at first and maybe some projects started that will benefit them but as time goes on, they will be forgotten about and it will all go back to how it once was.

I must confess I've never visited it, so I haven't a clue how it used to be. Was it really as bad as it was made out to be?

And nowhere, to me, is it most obvious but in the south. Everybody should go there at least once. It will open your eyes.


Funny, I grew up in La and Tx - I couldn't believe the poor conditions I saw when I first visited Detroit, Buffalo, and New York! I had never seen anything like it! -- Which then made me angry because I had always heard how bad and racist and poor we were in the South. -- My God, I have NEVER encountered such blatent prejudice and extreme, unfettered, and miserable poverty as I have in major cities - all north of the mason-dixon line.

Be careful to look at your own surroundings before commenting on others, lest ye be an idiotic hypocrite!

I think you have it wrong. The Minorities (WHITES) in NO all left except for a few individuals, many in the majority (black) stayed....thinking they would 'ride out the storm and have a good time'.


You have no earthly idea what your talking about. There are sooooo many lawyers and doctors and business people of all races that stayed for many varied reasons. I have had contact with some. Where on earth are you getting your bizarre information?

My guess is that there will be alot of talk about helping the poor in NO and even some worthwhile projects started up but as time goes on (repair of New Orleans will take years), it will be forgotten about as other issues of seemingly greater import will pop up and garner the peoples' attention. The poor will be forgotten about, the projects' funding will be cut and delayed and everything will go back to what it once was.

New Orleans is a very blue city in a red state but one sees very few white people awaiting rescue at the Civic Center and Super Dome. That's because whites, by and large, don't want to live with "those kind of people" and it doesn't matter if the whites are liberal, moderate or conservative.


I think you are right that there will be a lot of talk and little action - some other cause will surely come along.

Why has noone realized that many many people of all races have stayed in their homes upon hearing gunshots or hearing of looting? Frankly those who have a little outside information can be expected to STAY AWAY from the convention center or superdome at all costs.

I must confess I've never visited it, so I haven't a clue how it used to be. Was it really as bad as it was made out to be?
New Orleans is a beautiful and vibrant city! Most visitors never see the real city. Bourbon Street is not the real city.

Mardi Gras is bad - but that is due to the freaks that come from outside the region.

Once they get some roads and basic infrastructure back - I'm moving back to NO. It is going to be one kick-ass city again and will probably be better than ever.

New Orleans is a very blue city in a red state. I saw much more outrage from the City Mayor...while the Stete governor message is...almost nonexistent...

Can people stop quoting percantages without linking to sources?

I agree...

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/22/22071.html

68% black in Orleans Parish

However only

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/22/22051.html

23% black in Jefferson Parish.

I don't know the local geography well enough to say which was hit harder, but I would assume Orleans...

I read an article in the local newspaper earlier this week (Wednesday I think) concerning a Walmart that was looted. The store reported that every gun, knife and box of ammunition had been stolen, as well as every drop of beer and wine. But there were still a few grocery items on the shelves as well as a few cases of Walmart brand soda. There was no mention of other departments.

Edit: You do realize that we are on the same page and that I'm not arguing with you?

I wasn't arguing... just filling in the details around agreement.

Most of the early looting was need. People without food and water tend to get surprisingly desperate, surprisingly quickly. No stores were open, and most of the storekeepers were in otehr places. It took three days for the emergency medical help to START making any real appearance.

But, people keep lumping together the starving citizens, and the criminal element.

(Like I say, not arguing - just emphasising).

Nice tirade. Feel better? And don't ever presume that you know what my experience is. The fact that I'm willing to lead my family to safety says something about my confidence in my ability. The fact that my wife didn't argue with me when I brought it up says something about her confidence in me. We argue a lot, but you wouldn't know that.

You, too, seem to be one of the helpless. That attitude, and a little luck at the right time, is the difference between people that survive and people that become victims.

There are, even now, places in New Orleans that are safer than the slums that were the Superdome and the Convention Center. One doesn't need to make the trek to P'cola or Tallahassee to be safe. Only to the Hilton or the Prudential building, or maybe some other obscure and above water spot. In fact, the French Quarter is dry, not flooded I mean. Heaven forbid that they should stop drinking...

And as far as disease goes, so what? Diseases take time to incubate. I've caught crap from water that made me sick, but treatment can cure most anything that you can catch from that sort of water. The odds of recovering from even drinking that crap is a lot better than recovering from being shot dead by some predator in the projects.

Like I said, you're either a victim or a survivor. It helps to have some training and some luck, but it's essential to have the right attitude.

Hardly a tirade, my friend... but if it helps you feel better, fel free to call it that. However, you didn't actaully answer the question, did you?

HAVE you ever been caught IN a serious hurricane? I have... camping (in a tent, no less... real camping) on the coast, we were literally in the claws of death - and yet, I am still here a few decades later to discuss it. Perhaps that gives me some insight... and I just question whether you have THAT insight.

If you have never been there, never had your life on the line, all you have is rhetoric. You can be well trained, you can have all sorts of plans... but it's all talk.

Am I one of the helpless? I can't afford to run away to a fancy hotel on a whim, if that's what you mean... and that is a lot that was shared by many in New Orleans... many who were a lot MORE disadvantaged than I.

You keep making these suggestions that the (almost 100,000) people left in New Orleans should have merely gone to the Prudential or Hilton buildings. I fear you are perhaps trivialising the scope of the disaster, and the fact that OTHER people were not willing to extend a hand of help. Would the Hilton have happily accomodated a few tens of thousands of wet, terrified people? For no money? I doubt it.

I'm a little disturbed that you seem to be asserting people stayed to live or die, in New Orleans, for the 'drink'... a litle judgemental, perhaps?

And, regarding that penultimate paragraph, "And as far as disease goes, so what? Diseases take time to incubate. I've caught crap from water that made me sick, but treatment can cure most anything that you can catch from that sort of water": I think you (perhaps deliberately) underestimate the risks. You know what they 'do' as the big industry, on the gulf coast, right? You know that the flooding washed the sewer system into the street, right? Tell me about how you think these people were going to deal with Giardia or Cryptosporidium?

You're absolutely right. No one should ever use anything that isn't wrapped up in a government package.

Sure, whatever.

Not sure if this is supposed to be sarcasm, or not. One has to hope...

I think you have it wrong. The Minorities (WHITES) in NO all left except for a few individuals, many in the majority (black) stayed....thinking they would 'ride out the storm and have a good time'.

Tell you that, did they?

when I started this debate...CNN was not touching the Race factor...

but lately they cant scape it...

Rite now there is a Black lady...an Ohio congresswoman...She is giving the "Black" point of view...

Basically Black leaders are saying that the Bush and the Feds let them down...

comments?

I'm not black, and I'm not in New Orleans... but I think America collectively failed in New Orleans. And, while I don't think the average taxpayer had a WHOLE lot they could do about it, the further 'up the chain' you go, the more that COULD have been done.

Bush DID let the blacks down in New Orleans. Bush let EVERYONE down in New Orleans... and the situation is far from cured now. What is the big gesture? At them moment, sending in more national guard... on CNN yesterday, the big thing about THESE national guards, is that they are expert at lethal enforcement on looters.... because, of course, what we REALLY need is more dead people in New Orleans.

New Orleans is a beautiful and vibrant city! Most visitors never see the real city. Bourbon Street is not the real city.

Mardi Gras is bad - but that is due to the freaks that come from outside the region.

Once they get some roads and basic infrastructure back - I'm moving back to NO. It is going to be one kick-ass city again and will probably be better than ever.

Interesting, I've always been told to not venture outside of Bourbon Street, what with the rampant crime and poverty. But I'm sure there are nice areas, like in all cities. Except maybe for Flint.

My oldest son lives outside of DC in Maryland and he is always trying to convince me they live in the "south". All the folks up there have to do is speak and we know them for what they are...yankees.

Your son is nuts. DC is a northern city. The South starts at Richmond. But I don't think either would want to claim Maryland.

Edit - It does have a southern flair to it though, in that people will actually say "hello" to each other.

Your son is nuts. DC is a northern city. The South starts at Richmond. But I don't think either would want to claim Maryland.

Edit - It does have a southern flair to it though, in that people will actually say "hello" to each other.

My son and his family live in Old Green Belt, Md. I can't say for the rest of the area, but there is a very real community feeling where he lives. All the neighbors know each other and socialize, plus a large segment of them all go to the Catholic Church in the neighborhood. I just can't figure out why my granddaughters sound like California Valley girls...like, ya know?

I'm not black, and I'm not in New Orleans... but I think America collectively failed in New Orleans. And, while I don't think the average taxpayer had a WHOLE lot they could do about it, the further 'up the chain' you go, the more that COULD have been done.

Bush DID let the blacks down in New Orleans. Bush let EVERYONE down in New Orleans... and the situation is far from cured now.Bush, FEMA, the Governor of Lusiana...they sucked balls...big time...

Bush, FEMA, the Governor of Lusiana...they sucked balls...big time...
Your partisan garbage is really tiresome and unconstructive. Why don't you spend less time trying to blame things on your political enemies and more on actually suggesting and implementing solutions.

Interesting, I've always been told to not venture outside of Bourbon Street, what with the rampant crime and poverty. But I'm sure there are nice areas, like in all cities. Except maybe for Flint.


Flint Michigan?

Oh no, theres nice parts of Flint.

But sure as hell not very many!

I go there on occasion, and my motto is this:

"Flints a nice town...if you like urban decay."

Antre_Travarious']Your partisan garbage is really tiresome and unconstructive. Why don't you spend less time trying to blame things on your political enemies and more on actually suggesting and implementing solutions.


I think YOUR partisan garbage should be called as well as his.

In Thailand, after the tsunami, the US was airdropping food and water to victims on the ground within three days.

It took five in NO.

If the Local, State and Federal authorites are not to blame for this, pray tell, who is?

Why don't you spend less time trying to blame things.I tell it the way I see it...If someone Fucked up...he should be fired...

And in New-Orleans ...there is so much fuck-ups...that the city nickname should be changed from "The Big Easy" to " THE BIG FUCK-UP"...

Now...you may be one of those wimps who do not like to fire the idiots that make horrible mistakes...But I do not want to adopt your forgive-all philosophy.

and here is one of the ways the Bushites Fucked-Up http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=442113

Now...you may be one of those wimps...Blah BLah BLah
Tiresome garbage.

Antre_Travarious']Tiresome garbage.
running out of words?
...or is that a nervous tick of yours?
repeating the same "tiresome garbage" over and over...

dont you have some subtance?

I'm not black, and I'm not in New Orleans... but I think America collectively failed in New Orleans. And, while I don't think the average taxpayer had a WHOLE lot they could do about it, the further 'up the chain' you go, the more that COULD have been done.

Bush DID let the blacks down in New Orleans. Bush let EVERYONE down in New Orleans... and the situation is far from cured now. What is the big gesture? At them moment, sending in more national guard... on CNN yesterday, the big thing about THESE national guards, is that they are expert at lethal enforcement on looters.... because, of course, what we REALLY need is more dead people in New Orleans.


I completely agree.
Especially to the outside world in other western countries, the most shocking thing is the disgusting and unspeakable levels of poverty in New Orleans (and other parts of the USA) that this hurricane has highlighted.

Why doesn't the society of the world's richest country look after all members of its society? It can hardly say it can't afford to do so. If such scenes of mass poverty existed here the government would lose all its support in minutes. We can't understand why the American rich thinks it can get away with paying next to no tax and settle and keep a clean conscience (often whilst claiming to be very religious) with such levels of poverty in its own country.

This leads to an impression of selfishness. With this, and otherthings such as the widespread complaints as petrol prices rise to levels still nowhere near European levels (due to no tax and seemingly widespread disregard for our common environment), USA does itself no favours internationally.

Antre_Travarious']Your partisan garbage is really tiresome and unconstructive. Why don't you spend less time trying to blame things on your political enemies and more on actually suggesting and implementing solutions.

How is blaming FEMA partisan?

How is blaming the President partisan?

How is blaming the governor partisan?

The President DID drop the ball on this one... he was having a nice little vacation, remember? He didn't want to cut it short for some little Category 5 Hurricane nailing New Orleans. Is it because he's a Republican? I doubt it - although you are free to claim that if you wish.

More likely, it's just the kind of president he is, party-politicking aside.... so attacking him for it is hardly 'partisan'.

I completely agree.
Especially to the outside world in other western countries, the most shocking thing is the disgusting and unspeakable levels of poverty in New Orleans (and other parts of the USA) that this hurricane has highlighted.

Why doesn't the society of the world's richest country look after all members of its society? It can hardly say it can't afford to do so.

Dark side of the American Dream, my friend.

In order for wealth to mean something, there has to be a less 'wealthy' population to give it value. In order for the powerful to BE powerful, they have to have someone to have power over.

The American Dream is the national acceptance of self-first, the codification of 'let the devil take the hindmost'.

The American Dream built New Orleans, and the American Nightmare filled it with the broken, huddled masses.

How is blaming the President partisan?any "good" Christian knows that the President can do no wrong.

any "good" Christian knows that the President can do no wrong.

Oh yeah... sorry, I forgot.... he openly admits he was appointed by god, doesn't he?

Oh yeah... sorry, I forgot.... he openly admits he was appointed by god, doesn't he?Even if he thinks He was appointed by God...he was actually appointed by Rehnquist...and the other NeoCon Judges.

Even if he thinks He was appointed by God...he was actually appointed by Rehnquist...and the other NeoCon Judges.

Nice to see that God is answerable to the Neocon judges.

Even if he thinks He was appointed by God...he was actually appointed by Rehnquist...and the other NeoCon Judges.
Glad to see you have a firm grasp on reality.

Glad to see you have a firm grasp on reality.I am glad you are glad.