NationStates Jolt Archive

I couldn't very well leave NS (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=441535) without at least ONE more transgender thread...so here it is!

Transgendered: Being born into the wrong body. Being one gender, with the sexual characteristics of the other.

We need more understanding, and recognition of transgendered people. Why? Because out of a group already rife with depression and suicide (the LGBTT group), transgendered people are the most marginalised, and have even HIGHER rates of depression and suicide than gays, lesbians and bis. Even at a time when more and more people are learning to 'live' with other sexual orientations, gender orientation is an issue most people are not willing to deal with seriously, if they even know about it at all. No, this isn't a joke, it isn't a 'pretend' issue. It's a real one that affects more people than the general public probably is aware of.

Is it time for transgender issues to make it into the mainstream like sexual orientation issues have? I say...hurry up already! Yes!

I work and study at a hospital that performs sex-reassignment surgery, and I do come in contact with the patients at that ward sometimes. I support Sinuhue's stance fully!

I couldn't very well leave NS (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=441535) without at least ONE more transgender thread...so here it is!
*shakes fist*

Darn you Sinuhue! Darn you!

Is it time for transgender issues to make it into the mainstream like sexual orientation issues have? I say...hurry up already! Yes!
I agree. It is very important that we recognize the existence of these people. I don't know why religious conservatives haven't jumped on them yet as "perversions" and saying "only God can decide your gender". :rolleyes:

(Seriously, yes. We do need to recognize their existence and possibly allow them to change to what they prefer.)

We need more recognition of transgendered people!

I agree. We should know who we're dancing with. ;)

j/k. I have always thought that what we feel is far more important than some arbitrary social standard about how we're supposed to feel. Especially when that standard changes constantly and isn't the same from society to society.

Especially in the U.S.A. This is supposed to be a beacon of liberty and tolerance. Time we started acting the part. *sigh*

I've no problems with them, nor with the fact that they're mentally different than their physical body.

That said, however, I don't see surgery as changing into another gender. It's an aesthetic, superficial change, that, while yes, it makes them happier and more comfortable (and likely is a painful process requiring great committment), isn't a true change, in my mind. That comes at the genetic level, imo. Yeah, maybe I'm just picky or being extreme, but I don't view the sculpting of your body as a true change.

I think it would be wise to identify gay lesbian transgender people as early as possible so that they can get the necessary support they may or may not find with their family so as to prevent some of the emotional trauma


I couldn't very well leave NS (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=441535) without at least ONE more transgender thread...so here it is!

Transgendered: Being born into the wrong body. Being one gender, with the sexual characteristics of the other.

We need more understanding, and recognition of transgendered people. Why? Because out of a group already rife with depression and suicide (the LGBTT group), transgendered people are the most marginalised, and have even HIGHER rates of depression and suicide than gays, lesbians and bis. Even at a time when more and more people are learning to 'live' with other sexual orientations, gender orientation is an issue most people are not willing to deal with seriously, if they even know about it at all. No, this isn't a joke, it isn't a 'pretend' issue. It's a real one that affects more people than the general public probably is aware of.

Is it time for transgender issues to make it into the mainstream like sexual orientation issues have? I say...hurry up already! Yes!

That said, however, I don't see surgery as changing into another gender. It's an aesthetic, superficial change, that, while yes, it makes them happier and more comfortable (and likely is a painful process requiring great committment), isn't a true change, in my mind. That comes at the genetic level, imo. Yeah, maybe I'm just picky or being extreme, but I don't view the sculpting of your body as a true change.
iAgree.

I think it would be wise to identify gay lesbian transgender people as early as possible so that they can get the necessary support they may or may not find with their family so as to prevent some of the emotional trauma
It is rather awful that people who are "different" like that have to face all the emotional trauma. We should get rid of the puritanical attitudes that cause the trauma.

Agreed, it's an issue which CR's, the CC and other organizations (as well as general society) do not seem to understand, accept or address (likely because it is a wrench in all of their arguments persuant to one side or another).

Aside from the odd drag queen movie, TG and TS folk really aren't talked about much, and are just tagged onto the end of the LGBTT label:(

I agree with Sinuhue.

Um... okay. Transgendered Pride!

http://catcode.com/oly_d500/sf98/flag02.jpg

I couldn't very well leave NS (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=441535) without at least ONE more transgender thread...so here it is!

Transgendered: Being born into the wrong body. Being one gender, with the sexual characteristics of the other.
"Transgendered" is often used in a wider sense than that. Something like:
"Transgender people are individuals whose gender expression and/or gender identity differs from conventional expectations based on the physical sex they were born into. The word transgender is an umbrella term which is often used to describe a wide range of identities and experiences, including: FTMs, MTFs, cross-dressers, drag queens, drag kings, gender queers, and many more."
What you defined it as seemed more specifically like 'transsexual'.
[/nitpick]
We need more understanding, and recognition of transgendered people. Why? Because out of a group already rife with depression and suicide (the LGBTT group), transgendered people are the most marginalised, and have even HIGHER rates of depression and suicide than gays, lesbians and bis. Even at a time when more and more people are learning to 'live' with other sexual orientations, gender orientation is an issue most people are not willing to deal with seriously, if they even know about it at all. No, this isn't a joke, it isn't a 'pretend' issue. It's a real one that affects more people than the general public probably is aware of.

Is it time for transgender issues to make it into the mainstream like sexual orientation issues have? I say...hurry up already! Yes!
Seconded. And thirded, fourthed, and halved.

How about less recognition of gender in general?

If we weren't so obsessed with gender roles, transgendered people wouldn't have nearly as big a problem.

"Transgendered" is often used in a wider sense than that. Something like:
"Transgender people are individuals whose gender expression and/or gender identity differs from conventional expectations based on the physical sex they were born into. The word transgender is an umbrella term which is often used to describe a wide range of identities and experiences, including: FTMs, MTFs, cross-dressers, drag queens, drag kings, gender queers, and many more."
What you defined it as seemed more specifically like 'transsexual'.
[/nitpick]


Bless you for the nitpick:)

How about less recognition of gender in general?

If we weren't so obsessed with gender roles, transgendered people wouldn't have nearly as big a problem.
'ziz is true...

...but people seem to love their gender roles :(

In a perfect world you would be correct but with the likes of Fred Phelps around mine in a more real world solution.


It is rather awful that people who are "different" like that have to face all the emotional trauma. We should get rid of the puritanical attitudes that cause the trauma.

'ziz is true...

...but people seem to love their gender roles :(

If only they didn't project them on to other people, it would be better for everyone, even those who keep to strict gender roles.

Did not create "french fries"

Did not create "french fries"
....

....

What does that have to do with recognition of transgendered people?

:confused:

....

....

What does that have to do with recognition of transgendered people?

:confused:
OMGZ, d00d, th4t 1s s0 0bv10us!
Because transgendered men also want to be French. French women, of course.

Seriously, though:
I, personally, doubt that people really are "born into the wrong sex." Now, there are times where people are born one way, and birth defects or circumsicion accidents result in the person getting swung the other direction, but not adjusting well. However, that isn't due to the way they were born, that was just due to an accident early on.
Other transgenders are one of three types:

Men/Women who like boobies/extendable genetalia too much (Most males who switch gender turn out to be lesbians:eek: )
Desperately seeking attention (this is becoming more and more common among people who feel that they lack any talent or abilities of their own to stand out on)
Jerking the collective chain (I use to be gay, not because I actually liked men, but just because I found out that being gay was a fun way to piss people off and scare my parents. Hell, I even made out with a few guys, but most of them had bad breath and no talent whatsoever:()

But then, I could be wrong.

No, actually that's not true, I'm definitley right.

But then, I could be wrong.
Not could be wrong, you are wrong.

I, personally, doubt that people really are "born into the wrong sex."
<snip>
You know, there are people who decide to change gender due to a frivolous wish like your points. However, if I have heard correctly, most of those people end up quite unhappy, being that they don't actually want to be of the other sex.
I use to be gay, not because I actually liked men
Were you gay, or not gay? You can't really be gay and not like men, can you?
Perhaps you mean to say that you acted as though you were gay?

Were you gay, or not gay? You can't really be gay and not like men, can you?
Perhaps you mean to say that you acted as though you were gay?
I mean outwardly gay. Dating guys, gay discussion groups, gay clubs (note, these uses of gay are as in GSPA, and message boards about homosexual topics), etc. Anyone who would look at me, my past, or anything I did (except one particular November night) would be forced to agree, that guy is homosexual.
Yet, in my "soul", I wasn't.
I was living a lie, and every night I laughed myself to sleep and every day that my boyfriend and I went on walks together, I giggled about how silly he was. Especially those times he bought dinner.
It was all an experiment, just to see what would happen, and it went on for 2-3 years.

So yeah, I should be more clear in my statements, and your act gay with no desire bit was right.

I mean outwardly gay. Dating guys, gay discussion groups, gay clubs (note, these uses of gay are as in GSPA, and message boards about homosexual topics), etc. Anyone who would look at me, my past, or anything I did (except one particular November night) would be forced to agree, that guy is homosexual.
Yet, in my "soul", I wasn't.
I was living a lie, and every night I laughed myself to sleep and every day that my boyfriend and I went on walks together, I giggled about how silly he was. Especially those times he bought dinner.
It was all an experiment, just to see what would happen, and it went on for 2-3 years.

So yeah, I should be more clear in my statements, and your act gay with no desire bit was right.
This is kind of strange...usually it's gay people trying to be straight...

Luckily, for things like gender reassignment therapy (and surgery), the process tends to weed out the 'frivolous' folk.

This is kind of strange...usually it's gay people trying to be straight...
I'm not really straight either, I'm more of an anti-bi. I don't really care who it is I'm not having sex with at the moment, as neither sex is enjoyable enough to be worth my time.

Luckily, for things like gender reassignment therapy (and surgery), the process tends to weed out the 'frivolous' folk.
OK, so I suppose I missed those people who are deranged. Not everyone becomes transgender just for a chance to disgrace their family, some people are suffering from the same problems that cutters have. They want to control themselves, usually because of a lack of control (molestation, etc.) in the past. These people are more to be pitied because of their own problems, but they should have to pay for their own work (and I think they do). I base this on my case on suicide and self mutilation, don't make it my issue and do it on your own dime, or the dime of a fully willing volunteer.

OK, so I suppose I missed those people who are deranged. Not everyone becomes transgender just for a chance to disgrace their family, some people are suffering from the same problems that cutters have. They want to control themselves, usually because of a lack of control (molestation, etc.) in the past. These people are more to be pitied because of their own problems, but they should have to pay for their own work (and I think they do). I base this on my case on suicide and self mutilation, don't make it my issue and do it on your own dime, or the dime of a fully willing volunteer.
Uh....huh.

Well. Thank you for bringing up a hypothetical minority of people who pretend to be transgendered.

Now, can we get back the ones who really are...and not for all the disgusting reasons you've tried to pass off as truth?

Good.

OK, so I suppose I missed those people who are deranged. Not everyone becomes transgender just for a chance to disgrace their family, some people are suffering from the same problems that cutters have. They want to control themselves, usually because of a lack of control (molestation, etc.) in the past. These people are more to be pitied because of their own problems, but they should have to pay for their own work (and I think they do). I base this on my case on suicide and self mutilation, don't make it my issue and do it on your own dime, or the dime of a fully willing volunteer.
You have just shown that you know absolutely nothing about the issue.

You have just shown that you know absolutely nothing about the issue.
But what's worse...he's claiming to. *shakes head* That drives me nuts.

I was wondering, does anyone concider androgyny to be a gender (well, lack of really...)? We need to pave the way for androgynous rights and recognition too!


>.>

You have just shown that you know absolutely nothing about the issue.
Why, because I said that the roots of transgenderness lie along the same line as other forms of self-mutilations? Or because I said that if they feel the need to do so, they can keep it to themselves and their financial means?
Gender change is self-mutilation, whacking your bits off and adding some padding to your chest does NOT make you a woman in the same way that nailing feathers to my back and sticking bones in my mouth does NOT make me a bird.
Pretending to be a woman doesn't make you a woman anymore than my making out with men made me gay, it was a game, I played it, I tired of it, and I went back to join the real world.

Why, because I said that the roots of transgenderness lie along the same line as other forms of self-mutilations? Or because I said that if they feel the need to do so, they can keep it to themselves and their financial means?
The first bit is just dead wrong. And if you are going to start throwing accusations like that about, I want proof.

Gender change is self-mutilation, whacking your bits off and adding some padding to your chest does NOT make you a woman in the same way that nailing feathers to my back and sticking bones in my mouth does NOT make me a bird.
First we would need to define what a woman is and what a man is. Go ahead.

Pretending to be a woman doesn't make you a woman anymore than my making out with men made me gay, it was a game, I played it, I tired of it, and I went back to join the real world.
They are two completely different things. And anyway, you were pretending to be gay, but there are people who really are gay. So, just as you might get one or two people 'pretending' to be transgendered, there are many, many more who actually are transgendered.

First we would need to define what a woman is and what a man is. Go ahead.
I am pointing out that wearing dresses and a certain set of genitalia aren't the defining parts. Unless, of course, you are descrediting your own argument by saying that there is no difference between man and woman, in which case transgenders aren't trying to change anything important are they? In my experience the transgendered view of women tends to be very mysogynistic and rather juvenile.

They are two completely different things. And anyway, you were pretending to be gay, but there are people who really are gay. So, just as you might get one or two people 'pretending' to be transgendered, there are many, many more who actually are transgendered.
No, they are two the same things, I was pretending to be gay (which I'm not), but some people are actually gay. Transgender males are pretending to be women (which they are not), but some people are actually women.

Ignoring my call for proof on your abuse claims are we?

I am pointing out that wearing dresses and a certain set of genitalia aren't the defining parts.
But defining what a man is and what a woman is is fundamental to your argument.

Unless, of course, you are descrediting your own argument by saying that there is no difference between man and woman, in which case transgenders aren't trying to change anything important are they? In my experience the transgendered view of women tends to be very mysogynistic and rather juvenile.
And you have a great deal of experience? Anyhow, I would put greater stock by my 'experience' than yours.


No, they are two the same things, I was pretending to be gay (which I'm not), but some people are actually gay. Transgender males are pretending to be women (which they are not), but some people are actually women.
And, once again, we need to define what a woman is.

Ignoring my call for proof on your abuse claims are we?
Back up your claim that they are all (or at least most) perfectly sane. Arguing psychology online is like trying to make a Rembrandt with crayons and finger paints. We haven't the time, and efforts would just go to shit.

But defining what a man is and what a woman is is fundamental to your argument.
So then you admit that there is no reason to change your gender since there is no difference anyway? Then transgenders are just full of puss

And you have a great deal of experience? Anyhow, I would put greater stock by my 'experience' than yours.
Are you, yourself, transgender? Have you ever been the psychiarist of a transgender? If not, what gives you superior experience? We are both almost certainly drawing from third person experience and our own thoughts, meaning that my "phase" probably makes me better equipped (transgenders seem drawn to gay groups, even though they are completely different).

And, once again, we need to define what a woman is.
Once again, you undermine your own argument. You need to define what a woman is, and how you can be born with boy parts but be a girl on the inside. If slicing and dresses are all the difference, then all transgendered males are merely would-be self-mutilators with a flair for bad fashion and frills.

Back up your claim that they are all (or at least most) perfectly sane. Arguing psychology online is like trying to make a Rembrandt with crayons and finger paints. We haven't the time, and efforts would just go to shit.
You made the claim, it's up to you to back it up.


So then you admit that there is no reason to change your gender since there is no difference anyway? Then transgenders are just full of puss
Straw man....I said nothing of the sort. It is you who wants to say who can be a woman and who can't. For you to do that, you must have some sort of criteria.


Are you, yourself, transgender?
Yup.


Once again, you undermine your own argument. You need to define what a woman is, and how you can be born with boy parts but be a girl on the inside. If slicing and dresses are all the difference, then all transgendered males are merely would-be self-mutilators with a flair for bad fashion and frills.
Once again, it is you who is trying to decide who can be what, so you need to set out some criteria before we can go any further with this.

Yup.
That's what I . . . oh . . . well, ok.

Once again, it is you who is trying to decide who can be what, so you need to set out some criteria before we can go any further with this.
But you are alternating between saying that there is no real difference, and thus no point in changing, and that there is a difference and you feel it.
Pick a side, and then I'll argue further, but, later, I have got to go right now, concerns of the night

But you are alternating between saying that there is no real difference, and thus no point in changing
If you re-read my posts you will see that I have said no such thing.

All I have asked is for your own personal criteria for what makes a man and what makes a woman.

Pick a side, and then I'll argue further, but, later, I have got to go right now, concerns of the night
Backing out?

*sighs*

Although it's been some time since I've elected to point this out to anybody, I'm transgendered. I stopped mentioning it on NS because if it came up, I'd invariably have people pestering me about it.

Guess what? Plumbing is plumbing. Everything that matters takes place in your head and heart. Do I wish to 'mutilate' myself? Not on your life. I'm happy being just what I am. And my partner of sixteen years (who I will reveal to be a woman - ! :eek:) has been incredibly supportive of me from day one, just as I was open and honest with her from day one.

Does that make me somehow 'lesbian'? Pfft. This is why I threw the nomenclature out the window. There are things my partner provides me, and I her; there are things neither of us can provide the other, and we amicably go outside our union to have those provisions made.

I just think it's funny hearing everybody talk about this stuff and it all seems more or less abstract to anyone reading... but for me - well, I'm more of a mind to talk politics or religion than about the state of my genitals and what I like doing with various types of humans.

Then again, Sinuhue is right in her original post - it really can be difficult getting through the day... and life has been decidely more of a struggle for me, and I've had such deep depressions I've occasionally contemplated foolish things. If I didn't have an incredibly supportive mate and friends (including Sinuhue) I honestly don't know where I'd be right now.

Anyway, I'm not looking for a big dialogue, or Q & A, or anything like that. I just thought I'd stop by the thread and talk a little bit. Good luck working it all out, folks.

'Til next time,

Dobbs.

(Okay, you can call me 'Janine' if you wish, in future. Take care, now.)