NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm not justifying it or saying it's rihgt, but I want to examine this and offer a perspective many people have never before considered, because they were never put into the type of situation I'm goping to describe. They've always been well-off, and never knew how ugly raw survival could get...and that makes them incapable of seeing what motivates some of these people.

First, let me say that there's NO EXCUSE for the looting of items like microwaves, TV's, VCR's, DVD's, things like that. BUT, there's always been an element of society, that we usually refer to as the criminal element, that has had little to no respect for the conventions of society. This is a given. and those people will loot stuff like that, because they are jackals, they see easy prey, and they just take it. Those are crappy people, and they deserve whatever they get.

BUT...some others who are not normally of the criminal element get drawn into this in a time where authority has broken down, which can show you just how thin the veneer of civilization in many of us REALLY is. Here's an example...
You're sitting in rush-hour traffic, gridlocked, moving maybe an inch an hour. some guy zips past you on the shoulder. Then another guy and another guy, and another guy does it. And you get to feeling, well, heel, if they are gonna do it, not get caught, and get the benefit, I might as well benefit, too...whereupon, you steer for the shoulder and start zipping past others. It's a sort of mob mentality thing. You don't want to be left out of the benfits and feel like a sucker...especially when you know you can get away with it.

Then, there's the other element, and this is what I want to focus on...people who are stealing food, medicines, personal hygiene items, and maybe even some clothes. These are essential survival items. Maybe you have never been at the bottom of the barrel, and so you have no idea just how ugly raw survival can get. I know, I've been there. I lived for a month, once, in an abandoned railroad car, on disused railroad tracks, and had nothing left in the world. I know that, in order to SURVIVE I would have done anything...laws, morals, ethics, and priciples be damned, we were talking about survival, and I sure as hell wasn't going to knuckle under and die, just to keep up with my normal level of ethics, principles, and morals. Neither is anyone else going to. when your very survival...and the very survival of those whom you love, and who depend on you...hangs in the balance...there is NOTHING you won't do. Trust me, i've been there, and I know it is true.

Now, in my case, I fortunately never had to resort to anything illegal, but I know that I would've, if I had to...and without remorse or compunction, either. I ended up doing something I never thought I would, though...I knocked on complete strangers doors, begging for yardwork. I saved up enough doing that over the month that I was able to buy a cheap, piece of shit car, put a deposit down on a room in a shitty boarding house, and get a couple decent interview outfits. I took a newspaper route with the car, so that I would have a cash flow, and spend my daytime hours looking for work. I finally found a decent job, and pulled my ass off the shit-heap. Now, if it had become necessary to steal...to prostitute myself...whatever...I'd have done it, to survive. Bet your ass I would've! When your very survival hangs in the balance, you'll be amazed at what you are capable of doing. The only thing I know is that I never would have physically harmed, or killed anyone. Beyond that, there was nothing I wouldn't do. But if I saw another starving man with a sandwich, and noticed his grip was loose, I'd have ripped the sandwich right out of his hands, bet your ass I would've...and so would you, in spite of what you may tell yourself.

My point to all of this is this: The folks who are stealing life-essential items down there in N.O. - don't condemn them. They are just trying to survive. Leave them be. You'd do it too, in their place. And so what they property belonged to some store? They are insured, and the stuff woulda gone to waste anyway, so why not just let them have it? The storeowner is gonna claim a complete loss on his insurance, and get most if not all of his stuff back, anyway. for survival items, I understand and don't condemn. Now, the electronics retailer...his stuff is gonna be a total loss, and he's gonna get put back right by insurance, too...BUT the stuff he sells isn't life-essential, and so my tolerance for looting that sort of stuff goes out the window. there's a difference between trying to survive, and being a jackal. To be sure it's a fine line, but it is once I have had some experience having to walk.

So, lay off the folks in N.O. all you self-righteous holier-than-thou folks who are outraged at property crimes, but have no outrage for the human suffering...and no sadness for it either (yes I mean you, George Bush) I mean, I'm sorry, but when FEMA Secretary Brown comes out and starts laying blame on the victims, that pisses me off! Maybe some folks COULDN'T get out when the evacuation was ordered! Maybe they didn't have cars...and/or couldn't afford gas, let alone a motel bill for somewhere to stay for who knows how long? Maybe some folks had nowhere to go, no family or friends to turn to. Maybe some folks only had $20 to last till payday, and the Katrina hits before payday. What were those folks supposed to do, Secretary Brown?? Grow wings and FLY away from N.O.?? I suppose it's their fault for being poor and having no resources upon which to draw...how DARE they be poor?!?! They MUST be lazy, right?!? Maybe someone like Secretary Brown, who has never known real, raw survival...cannot understand the plight of these people. In which case, he has no business being Secretary of FEMA.

So, you have two elements at work which result in the looting we are hearing about. The first are the jackals, and those who don't want to be "left out" and feel like a sucker for not taking advantage when they could. For them, I have no sympathy, they are depraved, and deserve whatever they get. The second are those who are desperately trying to survive, and find themselves doing things that they, in normal circumstances, could never imagine themselves doing...and never would. For those people, they need our help, our sympathy, and our mercy. The second group are not doing anything you, yourself wouldn't do...if thrown into the same set of circumstances!

And that is the end of my rant.

People loot by nature!!!!
It's just easier if the window of the store is already broken!!!
:D :D :D

people loot for different reasons, some of these looters are just trying to get food for their families,

but some are just idiotic scumbags..... :rolleyes:

I'm with Lyric on this one. I mean, I'm a libertarian. I'm a huge fan of private property. But I'm not willing to condone the shooting of non-violent looters to keep them from stealing.

The violent ones, of course, should be stopped by any means necessary.

It has alot to do with "the Mob Mentality", I think.

It's to do with the inherent selfishness of humans. Even when we aren't in disasters we are still looting from people more unfortunate than us.

Why are governments so useless at times of disaster? Will they please get their act up? :mad:

Why do people loot?
In earnest, a lot of people that do probably never intended to. Peer pressure, the feeling of being left out, is the driving factor. I can understand and condone the looting of food, especially perishables that would be of no use to anyone if they were left to rot. When it comes to microwaves, all it takes sometimes is seeing someone else do it. That can change someone's decision not to pretty quickly, even if they have no need of said item.

It's to do with the inherent selfishness of humans. Even when we aren't in disasters we are still looting from people less unfortunate than us.

Why are governments so useless at times of disaster? Will they please get their act up? :mad:
Umm, I think you meant MORE UNFORTUNATE...or maybe LESS FORTUNATE??

If so, you and I are on the same page, and there is nothing in this world that pisses me off more than the strong and powerful exploiting the weak and powerless.

Lord of the Flies. If you've read it you know what I'm talking about, if not well:

Bunch of school kids get stranded on an island after a plane crash and with no adults or authority figures around they turn on each other and go nuts.

It's human nature, we can't handle these situations very well, we panic when we're afraid and instinctive competitve drives kick in, we'll do anything to survive. Including stealing electrical goods that we can potentially trade for other things.

The question is why is the reaction in New Orleans so extreme compared to other natural disasters in America? I don't have the answer to that question, I'm not American, I don't claim to understand you in general, let alone the inhabitants of a specific city. Anyone got any ideas?

They're just trying to increase their chances of survival by taking things away from the competition.

The question is why is the reaction in New Orleans so extreme compared to other natural disasters in America? I don't have the answer to that question, I'm not American, I don't claim to understand you in general, let alone the inhabitants of a specific city. Anyone got any ideas?I think the fact that most people that could left the city due to the evacuation order. Most of the people there were the most desperate of society in the first place. There was plenty warning before hand, so I guess certain parts of society got "hit" worse than others...(I don't like the phrasing of that last sentence, but I haven't been able to come up with anything better)

The question is why is the reaction in New Orleans so extreme compared to other natural disasters in America? I don't have the answer to that question, I'm not American, I don't claim to understand you in general, let alone the inhabitants of a specific city. Anyone got any ideas?

Might have something to do with the fact that the movement of law enforcement officials in New Orleans is so restricted. I don't think any area hit by a hurricane in the past has remained flooded for so long. It may just be that this is what a society without law enforcement looks like.

Then again, it may just be the result of these people coming out after the hurricane and finding themselves in a totally alien environment. New Orleans right now looks nothing like it did on Sunday.

A person who steals to feed their family, especially when faced with such a crisis, is sane. Someone who steals simply to benefit from the disaster -- and in such a disaster, an electronic item such as a microwave or a DVD player is of questionable utility -- is an idiot at worst and a thief at best.

With regard to shooting looters, well, there is a reason for that. People tend to revert back to their animalistic selves when placed in such a position -- it doesn't happen to everyone, but it does happen. The change is particularly noticeable among those who already behaved in a predatory manner; i.e. the so-called criminal element. Once the forces of social order are gone, or over-stretched, they swoop down like the vultures they are upon the innocent. Regrettably, the only way to enforce social order -- yes, a repressive social order, but social order none the less -- is to enforce martial law. Brutal, simple, and, in the short term, effective.

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." --Albert Einstein

I'm afraid this applies to some people. Being no law and order in New Orleans, there's no fear of punishment. Therefore, they can steal whatever they want and get away with it. It'll be impossible to track down most of the looters.

I'm totally against that, of course. :(

I agree with many of you.
The idea of looting for food in times of trouble is quite sensible. NOBODY wants to starve.
But who NEEDS a new stereo when there's no guarantee that you'll ever have a socket to plug it into again?

I think that, at the start of the disaster (whatever that disaster may be) it's every family for themselves i.e. make sure that you and yours aren't DEAD, and get them to safety. After that, it's help your fellow humans if they're in trouble.
Share food if someone needs it because I know I'd want someone to do the same for me, and also because I value humanity.

As for why people are venal and greedy in times of disaster, I think that it's a cultural flaw. Not every culture "loots".
I'm not a communist, but I am more left than right-wing.
If a people is brought up to covet, then what's the first thing they'll do when they get the opportunity? That's right...STEAL.
But if they're raised to help their fellow human (and animal) in times of trouble, then there's a chance that people will help others in such times.

Just my opinion.

"Life in the State of Nature is nasty, brutish, and short." --Hobbes

Where is that good ol' American resolve now, GW?

The pictures I see in the paper look remarkably similar to the pictures I see of the places all around the world that suffer similar catasrophes. Nature always wins -- through the climate, and inside every human mind. There is no difference between man and animal. Race, religion, nationality, morality, none of it matters except to people who have nothing else to fight over. A man is a dog, is a cat, is a rat, and so it goes.

And to all those teenage punk anarchy bands -- go to N.O. and see if anyone wants to hear your crappy demo tape. That is true anarchy. A big goddamned bar fight.

People loot after disasters for two major reasons.

1. The looters feel the government is not doing enough to help them so they turn to civil disobediance for help. These types of looters are generally good people who need food or clothing.

2. The looters have no humanity and their greed takes over. They do not need the goods, but are merely stealing.

Umm, I think you meant MORE UNFORTUNATE...or maybe LESS FORTUNATE??

If so, you and I are on the same page, and there is nothing in this world that pisses me off more than the strong and powerful exploiting the weak and powerless.You're right! Oops! Please excuse me. I barely edit my work ~ laziness.....

There isn't a cure to inequality is there?

Ah - but I have one. ;)

If we accomplished in forming a communist state there would be very little social inequality. I'm talking about Marxism not Stalinism, Maoism, or Castroism.

The problem with Communism in practice is that it neglects the human trait of greed, and laziness.

In theory, it is a wonderful system, but unfortunately, it is a Utopian ideal that could not work with humanity as is (as always was, and as always will be).

Edit:
But much of the events in New Orleans are unrelated to social inequality (except that maybe much of the stranded are perhaps more without means than those who got out). Even if all were equal there, you would still have people who would not evacuate, or could not evacuate.

I saw a video on the news the other day of a couple people dragging a rack of drinks down the street through the muddy waters... and I thought, "That is a LOT to drink... but the news people have been saying it could take a couple months to get everything drained. Might just be pre-planning a long stay."

I totally agree that people who loot essentials should not be thought of as criminals. I mean... these people are probably walking past dead people in the water every day, feeling weaker and sicker every day they can't get out... they look up and see the gleaming and safe Airforce One above and say, "Jackass."
I certainly hope the death toll isn't as high as some have been forecasting it to be...

There are a lot of people who aren't greedy and lazy. These traits are only acceptable because of our education system. If the system was changed communism would be a much more fesable goal. until then we have new-age socialism, where the state runs the major industries, people who work get a bare minimum, and those who work harder get richer.