NationStates Jolt Archive

I love America, and I feel it is a great nation. That is why I feel that it should not accept foreign aid. Furthermore, those that offer government resources to help are criminals. They are forcefeeding an obese glutton.
You see, America does not simply have a right, but an obligation, a necessity, to help its own. That does not include allowing swindlers, vandals, and price gougers in foreign nations to slap hurricane victims across the face by trying to make them dependent, then asking favors in return. America should use its own, abundant resources to help with this disaster, and therefore, develop a sense of cohesion, solidarity, and purpose. It shouldn't let the work be done by a handful of criminals, which many (even if not all) of these governments are. I find it a moral abomination that foreigners should be ashamed of.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N01481437.htm

I love America, and I feel it is a great nation. That is why I feel that it should not accept foreign aid. Furthermore, those that offer government resources to help are criminals. They are forcefeeding an obese glutton.
You see, America does not simply have a right, but an obligation, a necessity, to help its own. That does not include allowing swindlers, vandals, and price gougers in foreign nations to slap hurricane victims across the face by trying to make them dependent, then asking favors in return. America should use its own, abundant resources to help with this disaster, and therefore, develop a sense of cohesion, solidarity, and purpose. It shouldn't let the work be done by a handful of criminals, which many (even if not all) of these governments are. I find it a moral abomination that foreigners should be ashamed of.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N01481437.htm
Um...what?

Um...what?
They are criminals. A lot of these countries are either socialist pigs, or toltalitarian strongmen. The US has a duty not just to refuse aid, but to condemn the countries offering it. Which, of course, Washington is too weak to do.

This is the phenomenon called 'folly of pride'.

Yes, let's just let them suffer longer so that we don't owe a debt of gratitude and possibly money... OR we could just kill them! That way we don't have to let them help us!

:rolleyes:

This is the phenomenon called 'folly of pride'.
Blood money hurts victims.

They are criminals.


"Belgium, Canada, Russia, Japan, France, Germany, Britain, China, Australia, Jamaica, Honduras, Greece, Venezuela, the Organization of American States, NATO, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Mexico, South Korea, Israel and the United Arab Emirates."

Point out the criminals, would you?

They are criminals. A lot of these countries are either socialist pigs, or totalitarian strongmen. The US has a duty not just to refuse aid, but to condemn the countries offering it. Which, of course, Washington is too weak to do.
The State Department said offers so far had come from Belgium, Canada, Russia, Japan, France, Germany, Britain, China, Australia, Jamaica, Honduras, Greece, Venezuela, the Organization of American States, NATO, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Mexico, South Korea, Israel and the United Arab Emirates.

NATO really is a group of socialist pigs and totalitarian strongmen, alright.


Leave off the god damn politicizing for one moment. Have you no shame? Have at long last you cast away any pretext of having shame?

The State Department said offers so far had come from Belgium, Canada, Russia, Japan, France, Germany, Britain, China, Australia, Jamaica, Honduras, Greece, Venezuela, the Organization of American States, NATO, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Mexico, South Korea, Israel and the United Arab Emirates.

NATO really is a group of socialist pigs and totalitarian strongmen, alright.


Leave off the god damn politicizing for one moment. Have you no shame? Have at long last you cast away any pretext of having shame?
I don't like to politicize issues, but I must do it when I feel that the nation is threatened with dependency.

"Belgium, Canada, Russia, Japan, France, Germany, Britain, China, Australia, Jamaica, Honduras, Greece, Venezuela, the Organization of American States, NATO, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Mexico, South Korea, Israel and the United Arab Emirates."

Point out the criminals, would you?

Israel?

Need I point out that most totalitarian dicatorships were propped up by the US to oppose communism? We caused many of the dictatorships we now seek to topple.

Need I point out that most totalitarian dicatorships were propped up by the US to oppose communism? We caused many of the dictatorships we now seek to topple.
None of them I see offering aid. Most are gone now, anyhow. If you didn't get the veiled reference, btw, I meant Venezuela, and maybe Cuba if they follow suit.

I don't like to politicize issues, but I must do it when I feel that the nation is threatened with dependency.
Dependency on what? We have to first accept it, and if they didn't offer it, then you get the asshats like the rest of your conservative compatriots bitching that no one offers the US help.

Yes! Those Dutch and British pigs! How dare those totalitarian strongmen condescend in such a manner.

And the Japanese! Damn them and their constitution that forbids preemptive war. We should tell all of those compassionate f-cks to go to Hell.

This is the phenomenon called 'folly of pride'.

I'd rather think it's sarcasm, but with NS being what it is you can never tell for sure one way or the other...

And how the hell does accepting aid in the middle of this mess mean we'll become dependant on foreign aid?

One time, and one time when we really can use all the help we can get so we can get the survivors out and get those shattered cities rebuilt.

I'd rather think it's sarcasm, but with NS being what it is you can never tell for sure one way or the other...

Possibly the water supplies across the United States have been infected with some bizarre hallucinogenic as a side-effect of the catastrophe?

Would the US be criminal if they helped another nation in a time of need after let us say... a tsunami?

Dependency on what? We have to first accept it, and if they didn't offer it, then you get the asshats like the rest of your conservative compatriots bitching that no one offers the US help.
A. The conservatives reject me, anyhow.
B. Type it in on Google. There's lotsa info.
C. It undermines the resources of the US, and makes both our government and the global private sector less eager to help. Look at what happened to Indonesia. They just took and took, and did little of their own. Thailand and India were wise not to accept public aid.

I don't like to politicize issues, but I must do it when I feel that the nation is threatened with dependency.
Then politicize the issue of oil, for crying out loud. Getting uptight over international co-operation and fellowship is not just unbecoming, it's tacky as well. If it's issues of dependency you're on about, demand a new energy mandate from your elected officials. Scream blue murder to get the bloody oil monkey off your backs.

A. The conservatives reject me, anyhow.
B. Type it in on Google. There's lotsa info.
C. It undermines the resources of the US, and makes both our government and the global private sector less eager to help. Look at what happened to Indonesia. They just took and took, and did little of their own. Thailand and India were wise not to accept public aid.
Then reject it. It's still the proper thing to do to offer aid when a disaster happens.

I didn't look at the list and kind of found it funny that he considers every foreign nation to be totalitarian. I hate the current reversal and denial associated with these "banana republics" propped by the good ol' US of A.

I don't like to politicize issues, but I must do it when I feel that the nation is threatened with dependency.
Dependency? On Honduras? Who got flattened by a hurricane several years back? :rolleyes:

Would the US be criminal if they helped another nation in a time of need after let us say... a tsunami?
It depends if they ask for it or not. Of course, the US and other countries don't need to jump at every oppritunity, nor enter a contest to see who would give more.

Then politicize the issue of oil, for crying out loud. Getting uptight over international co-operation and fellowship is not just unbecoming, it's tacky as well. If it's issues of dependency you're on about, demand a new energy mandate from your elected officials. Scream blue murder to get the bloody oil monkey off your backs.
I'd like tol address that, but I don't need to. The pump prices do it for me.

Possibly the water supplies across the United States have been infected with some bizarre hallucinogenic as a side-effect of the catastrophe?
I want some of that water! :p

Then reject it. It's still the proper thing to do to offer aid when a disaster happens.
But Washington won't. Morally, they are too weak.

But Washington won't. Morally, they are too weak.
And your choice means that many more people may die because of your pride. No thanks.

Never mind, I think I have it figured out. He's just pissed off that his arch enemies, Chavez and Castro are proving themselves to be above politics so he can't bitch about how they don't help us when we're in need, but the US helps them.

With US offers of help being above politics after all.

Dependency? On Honduras? Who got flattened by a hurricane several years back? :rolleyes:
Not them specifically, but why not they jump on the bandwagon with all the other socialist governments. Yes, all of the govs offering the US aid are socialist to some degree or another. Some aren't even ashamed to flaunt it.

It depends if they ask for it or not. Of course, the US and other countries don't need to jump at every oppritunity, nor enter a contest to see who would give more.

So any country that offers help WITHOUT BEING ASKED is criminal?

Never mind, I think I have it figured out. He's just pissed off that his arch enemies, Chavez and Castro are proving themselves to be above politics so he can't bitch about how they don't help us when we're in need, but the US helps them.

With US offers of help being above politics after all.
Well, there are other leaders I really hate, like Chirac and Blair. Bush isn't my favorite ever, but at least he doesn't follow a morally bankrupt system. Just one that is half-hearted.

He's just pissed off that his arch enemies, Chavez and Castro are proving themselves to be above politics so he can't bitch about how they don't help us when we're in need, but the US helps them.

Ohmigod!WTF!!!shiftONE1111111 You mean the socialists actually mean it when they talk about an international brotherhood of man, and it wasn't all just some cunning ruse to piss off the powers that be?

So any country that offers help WITHOUT BEING ASKED is criminal?
I think so. The US didn't ask. And it'd be morally offensive if we did. It was when many Americans on here called for foreign public aid.

Well, there are other leaders I really hate, like Chirac and Blair. Bush isn't my favorite ever, but at least he doesn't follow a morally bankrupt system. Just one that is half-hearted.

Explain to me why Blair follows a morally bankrupt system, would you?

Ohmigod!WTF!!!shiftONE1111111 You mean the socialists actually mean it when they talk about an international brotherhood of man, and it wasn't all just some cunning ruse to piss off the powers that be?
That's what I fear. Man needs to be independent, and learn to be powerful without a "brotherhood". The brotherhood in Cambodia worked especially well under Pol Pot, didn't it?

I think so. The US didn't ask. And it'd be morally offensive if we did. It was when many Americans on here called for foreign public aid.

Hang on, so even just offering something now is criminal in your eyes?

Are you saying that every country in the would should be an isolationist?

I say this as an Australio-New Zealander, and it is this:
What could you POSSIBLY have against accepting HELP in this time of need for Americans?

After the political DISASTER that was the war on Iraq, you arrogant right-wing fascist PIG-DOGS that represent the conservatives of America can't even see this as an opportunity to mend fences and build better ties with the world?

Instead of accepting the help and making things easier, you're saying that you should turn your political nose up like some SNOB and refuse help?
*covers his eyes with his hand and shakes his head in disbelief*

*sigh* Only a conservative...

Hang on, so even just offering something now is criminal in your eyes?
Of course. It never teaches self-sufficiency. Of course, my greatest concern is that this is foreign governments, and not even domestic governments that should be the only ones entitled to their citizens' protection.

That's what I fear. Man needs to be independent, and learn to be powerful without a "brotherhood".

In that case you should be arguing for the abolition of all those 'brotherhoods' which have the affrontery to pass themselves off as 'states'.

Aside from which, 'Man' has never been independent throughout history and has always operated in packs, so I don't see where your 'need' comes from.

Not them specifically, but why not they jump on the bandwagon with all the other socialist governments. Yes, all of the govs offering the US aid are socialist to some degree or another. Some aren't even ashamed to flaunt it.
'Socialist' only because from the far right, every other form of government appears left-wing.

Of course. It never teaches self-sufficiency.

So, anything which doesn't teach self-sufficiency is criminal in your eyes?


You are also blurring too different issues here - national self-sufficiency and individual self-sufficiency.

Are you saying that every country in the would should be an isolationist?
No. They should destroy threats overseas and promote trade. They shouldn't help a country that not only is self sufficient in help, but that is based on an ideaology superior to their own. The only one with any type of reason to ever offer foreign aid is Hong Kong, which isn't even a country, anyhow. And btw, I completely support most elements of US foreign policy, and even criticize it for not going far enough.

Of course. It never teaches self-sufficiency. Of course, my greatest concern is that this is foreign governments, and not even domestic governments that should be the only ones entitled to their citizens' protection.
I hope you'll soon find yourself in a situation, where you'll depend on the kindness & aid of strangers, or perish. Not to be mean or anything, I just hope it'll teach you a valuable lesson.

No. They should destroy threats overseas and promote trade. They shouldn't help a country that not only is self sufficient in help, but that is based on an ideaology superior to their own. The only one with any type of reason to ever offer foreign aid is Hong Kong, which isn't even a country, anyhow. And btw, I completely support most elements of US foreign policy, and even criticize it for not going far enough.

That would make the US non-self sufficient though.

Yes, all of the govs offering the US aid are socialist to some degree or another.

The UAE are socialists?

So, anything which doesn't teach self-sufficiency is criminal in your eyes?


You are also blurring too different issues here - national self-sufficiency and individual self-sufficiency.
I am, and I do this deliberately. I believe that any government has a mandate to protect its own citizens. This should be its only job, and it should retain a complete monopoly in its geographic area. Any intrusion is a violation of national sovereignty. This is especially repulsive as twenty governments that are composed of those ideaologically weaker than the US are trying to bring the US down. They won't suceed, but the attempt is just as dangerous as the crime itself.

The UAE are socialists?
Only Dubai isn't. The others are quite leftist.

I am, and I do this deliberately. I believe that any government has a mandate to protect its own citizens. This should be its only job, and it should retain a complete monopoly in its geographic area. Any intrusion is a violation of national sovereignty. This is especially repulsive as twenty governments that are composed of those ideaologically weaker than the US are trying to bring the US down. They won't suceed, but the attempt is just as dangerous as the crime itself.
I thought your sort was for globalization.

This is especially repulsive as twenty governments that are composed of those ideaologically weaker than the US are trying to bring the US down.

Lets get this straight: you believe Tony Blair is engaged in a fiendish plot to overthrow the government of the United States of America?

Only Dubai isn't. The others are quite leftist.
Japan?

Are you insane?

I hope you'll soon find yourself in a situation, where you'll depend on the kindness & aid of strangers, or perish. Not to be mean or anything, I just hope it'll teach you a valuable lesson.
If I don't learn to swim, I drown, okay. My time is simply up. I've always held that view since... well, I won't tell you explicitly. I don't want to make myself the subject of debate, but my idea.

I thought your sort was for globalization.
Private sector globalization, which breeds independence. Political globalization gave us horrors like terrorism and non-state actors.

I'm an American. Our country didn't ask for foreign aid to help in this time of disaster though I am not surprised by the goodwill of all that are reaching out and offering aid. It just goes to show that no matter how different we are in our politics or economics, human life is more valuable than those differences. To the 20 countries that have and the many more that will contribute to this effort, I thank you.

Japan?

Are you insane?
Relative to their GDP, the public sector debt is 150%. That is because of several hand-me-outs and public sector spending. Junchiro Koizumi is a strong man to want to change the status quo. His colleagues aren't.

I'm an American. Our country didn't ask for foreign aid to help in this time of disaster though I am not surprised by the goodwill of all that are reaching out and offering aid. It just goes to show that no matter how different we are in our politics or economics, human life is more valuable than those differences. To the 20 countries that have and the many more that will contribute to this effort, I thank you.
That's what they said in the USSR.

I'm an American.
That's what they said in the USSR.

???

I don't want to make myself the subject of debate, but my idea.

To late.

???
The USSR justified their disastorous programs and pogroms by saying they honored human life. If they did, why didn't they teach them to fish, and not hand them fish?

The USSR justified their disastorous programs and pogroms by saying they honored human life. If they did, why didn't they teach them to fish, and not hand them fish?

Ever hear of this little word called 'propaganda'?

To late.
No. Everyone is arguing against my idea, not me. Even if they do attack me, it is because they either really hate my idea, or cannot find a counterarguement for some reason.
BTW, those in the Politburo, at least the Leninists and Stalin era bureaocrats, truely believed it. Stalin did. Otherwise, he would've fled Russia and start a life as an individual, not as a head of half the world.

That's what they said in the USSR.


I don't care what they said in the USSR. You obviously have no connection to anyone that was part of this disaster. Have you contributed to the disaster relief? I doubt it. Maybe you should send a few dollars to the Red Cross and quit trolling for all the US haters.

No. They should destroy threats overseas and promote trade. They shouldn't help a country that not only is self sufficient in help, but that is based on an ideaology superior to their own. The only one with any type of reason to ever offer foreign aid is Hong Kong, which isn't even a country, anyhow. And btw, I completely support most elements of US foreign policy, and even criticize it for not going far enough.

First off....THREATS? What threats? Define "threat". In what way "threat"?
Do you mean "could endanger the world" threat e.g. al-qaeda?
Or do you mean merely those whom you would class as an economic threat?
Promote trade, you say? The US has RUINED OIL as a commodity by making
it too expensive. There's plenty of talk about going stepping AROUND the US
to other countries to trade in commodities thank to the actions of that idiot
president. Our government KNOWS that it would be stupid to get into a
"Free trade" deal with the US because the US always controls these deals.
Look at Canada's free trade deal. THAT went pretty sour pretty quick.
Look at Mexico City. It's a stinking HOLE thanks to that.
Why should any country want to take a free trade deal that would lead to
ruin? We already have everything we need, thank you very much.

Second, I saw the news with this natural disaster, and it said that the
cost to clean up, etc. would be in the BILLIONS. And America has ALREADY
run up a deficit under the Bush government due to, among other things, the
tax cuts he plans to give to the mega-rich, so remind me how you're
self-sufficient?

Third and finally, Australia and New Zealand are in FINE position to offer aid. But that aid doesn't necessarily come in the form of money. It could also come in the form of people going over to help. To rebuild houses, to work as doctors and nurses, to help repair things, etc.

And BTW, I OPPOSE most elements of US foreign policy, and criticise it for not learning from HISTORY!

But this is not the time for that.
This is the time for helping those less fortunate.
The US government should accept all the help that it can get for the benefit of their PEOPLE and be grateful, rather than turning their collective nose up.

I love America, and I feel it is a great nation. That is why I feel that it should not accept foreign aid. Furthermore, those that offer government resources to help are criminals. They are forcefeeding an obese glutton.
You see, America does not simply have a right, but an obligation, a necessity, to help its own. That does not include allowing swindlers, vandals, and price gougers in foreign nations to slap hurricane victims across the face by trying to make them dependent, then asking favors in return. America should use its own, abundant resources to help with this disaster, and therefore, develop a sense of cohesion, solidarity, and purpose. It shouldn't let the work be done by a handful of criminals, which many (even if not all) of these governments are. I find it a moral abomination that foreigners should be ashamed of.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N01481437.htm

WE MUST STAND ON OUR OWN! WE MUST NOT SHOW WEAKNESS!
SINCE OUR WAY OF LIFE IS THE BEST AND ONLY ONE, EVERYONE ELSE IS A PIG OR A TOTALITARIAN!
IF WE LET THEM TARNISH OUR MASTER CULTURE, WHO KNOWS WHAT THE RESULTS COULD BE?
YOU WILL SIT DOWN!
YOU WILL SHUT UP!
YOU WILL NOT HELP US!
YOU WILL NOT QUESTION THE FATHERLAND!
ZEIG HEIL!
http://home.comcast.net/~msnbcbeef/Nazis_saluting_-_361_WIDE_x_260_HIGH.jpg

Suffice to say you earned this smilie - :rolleyes:

I'm an American. Our country didn't ask for foreign aid to help in this time of disaster though I am not surprised by the goodwill of all that are reaching out and offering aid. It just goes to show that no matter how different we are in our politics or economics, human life is more valuable than those differences. To the 20 countries that have and the many more that will contribute to this effort, I thank you.
Don't worry. The lives of our fellow humans are much more important than a few people's wounded pride, or reservations about who gives what. We'll always be ready to led a hand when needed, regardless of how much we disagree on forign policies. And we know - in spite of a few NS'ers - that you'll always do the same.
Incedentially, this isn't about debt or favours. This is about people who need help. When we're in a position to help, we will. And that goes for all of us, not just Europeans & Americans.

I don't care what they said in the USSR. You obviously have no connection to anyone that was part of this disaster. Have you contributed to the disaster relief? I doubt it. Maybe you should send a few dollars to the Red Cross and quit trolling for all the US haters.
I already did. They are private sector, and unless they are planning a coup, they are in no position to bring a society of semi-strong individuals to its knees. And do I know anyone down there? I won't answer. If I say yes, you'll say I don't know them well. If I say no, then it is letting the status quo remain. Either way, you won't change your mind.

WE MUST STAND ON OUR OWN! WE MUST NOT SHOW WEAKNESS!
SINCE OUR WAY OF LIFE IS THE BEST AND ONLY ONE, EVERYONE ELSE IS A PIG OR A TOTALITARIAN!
IF WE LET THEM TARNISH OUR MASTER CULTURE, WHO KNOWS WHAT THE RESULTS COULD BE?
YOU WILL SIT DOWN!
YOU WILL SHUT UP!
YOU WILL NOT HELP US!
YOU WILL NOT QUESTION THE FATHERLAND!
ZEIG HEIL!
http://home.comcast.net/~msnbcbeef/Nazis_saluting_-_361_WIDE_x_260_HIGH.jpg

Suffice to say you earned this smilie - :rolleyes:
That's really cute, especially since I don't believe in any of this. Thanks for making my day.
BTW, I've never been compared to a Nazi before. But I guess there must be a first.

Either way, you won't change your mind.

Nor will you for you keep posting.

What kind of would will make you completely happy? I would really like to know in one simple post instead of these fifty.

Abundant REsources, in AMERICA? where have you been the last 60 years lol lol. Ok you got cows and some crops and thats about it, oh and labour. Now lets give a little history lesson. By the end of the vietnam war most american iron mines were exhausted as well as a whole bunch of other mines and just general resources. This caused the first majour depression since the war. Even to this day america is technically borrowing its money to keep going thanks to treasury bonds. Foreign countries offer to help bloody take it! and to counter arguments that you do have resources, please tell me why all your failing industries are putting taxes and sanctions on foreign imported materials. Its cause as the home owners association says. You dont have any. Now dont be offended this is simply a correction to let you know, that your gov is not truthful about everything, and that you really do need the foreign aid, before lousiana turns back in to a swamp.

hi, i'm posting for the first time. i've read a couple of threads with lotus puppy participating and i just want to ask, um, are you george bush?

because you sound just like him. it's uncanny.

he thinks starving people should be shot for stealing food, too. he also doesn't like it when foreigners try to be nice because it undermines his go-it-alone and shoot-first and they-all-hate-us policies. i guess that's why, right after that list of nations offering aid was published, he told diane sawyer that he didn't expect there would be much of an international response.

he's funny, and so are you. :)

That's really cute, especially since I don't believe in any of this. Thanks for making my day.
BTW, I've never been compared to a Nazi before. But I guess there must be a first.

What do you expect? Go back and read your posts because that's how I pegged you.

When Objectiveists Attack! now on NationStates...

Ok, I take that back.

Still, I find it amuzing that you claim that any interfearence in any nation is a violation, yet you support US interfearence in the rest of the world.

... forgive me for being blunt, but I think you're a bit fucked up in the head.

Reality check! NO ONE can survive on their own. Anyone who refuses help that can save their lives is too prideful and over-estimating of himself or herself.

Like it or not, America needs help. We've got enough troubles as it is. The war in Iraq, crazy gas prices, crime, health, social security, the national debt, and then Hurricane Katrina comes along and fucks up everything even more.

And you're demanding that we DON'T accept help?

You are condemning those poor souls in New Orleans to fucking DIE. I'm sorry, but that's just sick.

Abundant REsources, in AMERICA? where have you been the last 60 years lol lol. Ok you got cows and some crops and thats about it, oh and labour. Now lets give a little history lesson. By the end of the vietnam war most american iron mines were exhausted as well as a whole bunch of other mines and just general resources. This caused the first majour depression since the war. Even to this day america is technically borrowing its money to keep going thanks to treasury bonds. Foreign countries offer to help bloody take it! and to counter arguments that you do have resources, please tell me why all your failing industries are putting taxes and sanctions on foreign imported materials. Its cause as the home owners association says. You dont have any. Now dont be offended this is simply a correction to let you know, that your gov is not truthful about everything, and that you really do need the foreign aid, before lousiana turns back in to a swamp.
Every nation has labor. Natural resources can be bought or sold with capital. And only one system creates capital. That is the only moral system to exist, lassez faire capitalism. The US isn't quite there yet, but we are much, much farther along than twenty years ago, and certainly farther along than any society, save Hong Kong.

Originally Posted by Lotus Puppy
I love America, and I feel it is a great nation. That is why I feel that it should not accept foreign aid. Furthermore, those that offer government resources to help are criminals. They are forcefeeding an obese glutton.
You see, America does not simply have a right, but an obligation, a necessity, to help its own. That does not include allowing swindlers, vandals, and price gougers in foreign nations to slap hurricane victims across the face by trying to make them dependent, then asking favors in return. America should use its own, abundant resources to help with this disaster, and therefore, develop a sense of cohesion, solidarity, and purpose. It shouldn't let the work be done by a handful of criminals, which many (even if not all) of these governments are. I find it a moral abomination that foreigners should be ashamed of.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N01481437.htm

to parden my english WHAT THE FU@K has Canada done to the A$$holes like you in the states except not partake in your preses ileagle and imoral war?

ohhh the nazi stuff, well its a little known fact but during the mcarthy era they broke out a TON of nazi war criminals to reorganise 1 the government, 2 government agencies and three schools to be more like the nazi model to better fight commies ^.^ but actualy if you look at hte iraq war and japans war in china there is this beautiful picture of three japanese business men in hard hats surrounded by rubble smiling and laughing at plans. looks ALOT like pictures in iraw of american businessmen with hard hats and plans laughing and giggling.

Also you do know the japanese government tricked there people the whole war same as the US gov for iraq, total control of the media [you do know your media is owned by republicans right lol]. So technically america is closer to tojo japan but the ideology is right in check i mean all evil folks have this wonderful name for there country, Nazi's it was Fatherland, Soviets Motherland Americas is simply Homeland. Ok there is this miniseries on HBO called Rome its about the republics fall to empire. See it starts with one of the two leaders, CEaser invading gaul to get public support and the money to become king soooo well there are alot of things going on right now that correspond with history lol enjoy that :)

What do you expect? Go back and read your posts because that's how I pegged you.

Ditto. Plus when I get bored I sometimes get this unquenchable desire to fulfil Godwin's law. ;)

I'd like tol address that, but I don't need to. The pump prices do it for me.
The pump prices are telling me that you should've collectively quit shooting up all that dirty junky oil all day every day for the last few decades. What do the pump prices tell you?

When Objectiveists Attack! now on NationStates...

Ok, I take that back.

Still, I find it amuzing that you claim that any interfearence in any nation is a violation, yet you support US interfearence in the rest of the world.
A.. Objectivists hate me.
B. I support US intervention (or any intervention) so long as it protects their nation's lives. Crumbling nations and decayed societies do. Allies help in this, and I think a few recognize the threat. But their help does not infringe on the national sovereignty of a society that is undoubtedly more moral than any society that produces a "failed state". Don't think I just mean the Arab world, even though I do. I also mean Papuan "society", as well as those of many African "nations".

Hey, boys and girls: I appreciate the attention, but there are only so many posts I can answer at a time. Wanna slow down the pace just a bit? Thanks.

A.. Objectivists hate me.
B. I support US intervention (or any intervention) so long as it protects their nation's lives. Crumbling nations and decayed societies do. Allies help in this, and I think a few recognize the threat. But their help does not infringe on the national sovereignty of a society that is undoubtedly more moral than any society that produces a "failed state". Don't think I just mean the Arab world, even though I do. I also mean Papuan "society", as well as those of many African "nations".

Are you refering to every country BUT the US as failing?

B. I support US intervention (or any intervention) so long as it protects their nation's lives. Crumbling nations and decayed societies do. Allies help in this, and I think a few recognize the threat. But their help does not infringe on the national sovereignty of a society that is undoubtedly more moral than any society that produces a "failed state". Don't think I just mean the Arab world, even though I do. I also mean Papuan "society", as well as those of many African "nations".
Your reply is illogical.

The pump prices are telling me that you should've collectively quit shooting up all that dirty junky oil all day every day for the last few decades. What do the pump prices tell you?
That we should reallocate resources soon, if not now. Of course, oil dependency to some degree will always exist.

... forgive me for being blunt, but I think you're a bit fucked up in the head.

Reality check! NO ONE can survive on their own. Anyone who refuses help that can save their lives is too prideful and over-estimating of himself or herself.

Like it or not, America needs help. We've got enough troubles as it is. The war in Iraq, crazy gas prices, crime, health, social security, the national debt, and then Hurricane Katrina comes along and fucks up everything even more.

And you're demanding that we DON'T accept help?

You are condemning those poor souls in New Orleans to fucking DIE. I'm sorry, but that's just sick.
There ya go, reply to this.

Your reply is illogical.
I see why you think that. Yet I don't see it that way. You see, the sovereignty of half-nations and toltalitarian criminals is indefensible, and often dangerous to free people, anyhow. The Cold War merely hid this fact from view.

If Lotus Puppy were to ever find himself at the bottom of a well and it was raining, I hope nobody throws him a rope. It would wound his sense of pride.

umm laissez faire...moral? ummm ok guys reality and another history check. Name the reason for the great depression. #1 rampant laissez faire capitalism #2 world war I now america entered at the end of WW I so umm why are they hurt by it they profitted selling supplies to both sides, only through Laissezz faire did they find the impetus needed to collapse the economy under greed. Now how did we gtet out of the depression, just to let you know Roosvelt was this close to going democratic commie.


They instead went...Socialist thats right. Everyone did now before you shout commie, socialism is what every non third world nation has, simply health care all that to save the burden on peoples money to keep consumerism going, government buys all essential companies and runs them to keepthem going. Very simple and it worked, only america literally only america went back to laissez faire after. Now your country is screwed cause the Euro is stealing your business your GNP dropped by 2/3 since bush came to office and well the more chinese and koreans who buy euros is less buying american dollars. This means less and less money each year. There was a special on CBC telling canadians to invest in american and canadian dollars to keep america going to stop a depression so yeah its pretty majour effect on the economy, plus 8% is owned by saudi arabia lol of your country i mean.

There ya go, reply to this.
I didn't see your first post. Sorry, but they are coming too fast. Anyhow, I am not condemning anyone to die. But I don't want their spirits murdered, either, as this gang of twenty might do by making them emotionally, mentally, and maybe even physically dependent.

If Lotus Puppy were to ever find himself at the bottom of a well and it was raining, I hope nobody throws him a rope. It would wound his sense of pride.

I mean he'd obviously be able to weave stone, dirt and water together to make an Otis-brand elevator. Why would he want your blood-rope? After all, you have different opinions than he does, so obviously you're a commienazi bastard.

Hey, boys and girls: I appreciate the attention, but there are only so many posts I can answer at a time. Wanna slow down the pace just a bit? Thanks.
Owned? ;)

I really enjoyed talking to you guys. I will get back to you tommarow afternoon. Right now, it is 22:00 where I live, and I must go to bed. Remind me that I have every direct question beyond page six to answer. Ciao!

That we should reallocate resources soon, if not now. Of course, oil dependency to some degree will always exist.

which resources, where, how?

lol just a side note Hail! Hail! Hail! Hail! bush Victorus maximus in the persian campaign, now off to the senate..to disband it

lol and if you had resources to reallocate, you wouldnt be selling your country to foreign investors to get money to buy materials to make cars. REmember you dont even make televisions any more and you sold most of silicon valley to British columbia [Bush: the high tech industry is going now where, high tech stocks crash]

Owned? ;)
No. Just overwhelmed by those that disagree with me. Needless to say, I appreciate dissent.

I mean he'd obviously be able to weave stone, dirt and water together to make an Otis-brand elevator. Why would he want your blood-rope? After all, you have different opinions than he does, so obviously you're a commienazi bastard.

Hey now, you already envoked Godwin's law. You won that one. lol

You do realize that you are the only one agreeing with your politics?
I would think that at least one person would be on your side if it was even plausable.

Good Point. :)

actually you know if he does appreciate the different views its good, remember the quote i may not like what you say but i will fight like hell for your right to say it though one thing Lotus puppy..Bush gov has fucked the media up the A as it were and wont let them report things that are bad i mean my god scandals just disapear to this government and they are the most secretive government ever to appear in the states. To fight for free speech means fighting against bush and his cronies

I didn't see your first post. Sorry, but they are coming too fast. Anyhow, I am not condemning anyone to die. But I don't want their spirits murdered, either, as this gang of twenty might do by making them emotionally, mentally, and maybe even physically dependent.
... oh my God...

Listen, I'm hesitant to use the word, but what you're saying sounds so fucking facist, it's beginning to scare me. America is not the Third Reich. We are not invincible. We are not all powerful.

These people, so far, are not asking for a debt. They are genuinely CONCERNED about us, and are trying to help those poor souls in New Orleans survive for another day.

How about this? You go down there, to the convention center in New Orleans, and preach your facist crap to them. I guarentee you not ONE of them will follow your ways.

How about this? You go down there, to the convention center in New Orleans, and preach your facist crap to them. I guarentee you not ONE of them will follow your ways.

More likely ignore him or bury him in the mud just to silence him. Being in a disaster zone tends to erode patience.

Speaking of Debt did you know america owes Canada so much moeny for one 1895 setting up the power grid 2 1917 converting there factories to modern for war time, 1941 doing the same WWII they owe us trillions by todays standards, the reconstruction of europe, America made Canada pay for it. PErsonally i think its about time you payed us the 32 tril you owe us

More likely ignore him or bury him in the mud just to silence him. Being in a disaster zone tends to erode patience.
True indeed...

Speaking of Debt did you know america owes Canada so much moeny for one 1895 setting up the power grid 2 1917 converting there factories to modern for war time, 1941 doing the same WWII they owe us trillions by todays standards, the reconstruction of europe, America made Canada pay for it. PErsonally i think its about time you payed us the 32 tril you owe us
Excuse me? Where the hell did THAT come from?

Speaking of Debt did you know america owes Canada so much moeny for one 1895 setting up the power grid 2 1917 converting there factories to modern for war time, 1941 doing the same WWII they owe us trillions by todays standards, the reconstruction of europe, America made Canada pay for it. PErsonally i think its about time you payed us the 32 tril you owe us

Everyone owes someone something. I say all debt in the world should be irradicaded and everyone starts over... Even though almost no one will go along with it. To many rich people. :(

Oh no i am cool with debt, mainly cause as a canadian i know our debt is literally owed to Canada lol lol. And because as we see with the treasury bonds...It makes us understand why nations like america that though technically are third world nations 70% under the poverty line for population. Do so well? its cause there leaders sell them out for money and any other advantage they can have :) then they lie and lie and lie and say everything that is true about say...Canada or even Britain...and claim it is the USA and Voila America nombre un de la monde! [one in the world or] America Uber alles, UBer alles in der Veldt!

Lotus I'm glad you're not the one in need of aid. It would be much too tempting not to offer any.
Regardless of what you might think, however, there is no plot to make you dependent on anyone, or to hold the aid you recieve against you. It's a humanitarian effort. There are no strings attatched. And you'll not recieve any aid when you no longer need it.

You should be more worried about your nations economy. As it is, the American economy would collapse, if it wasn't kept afloat by (mainly) the EU and China. And the only reason people subsidise your nation, is because the world economy is based on the US$.
As it is, you very much are a cripple, relying on others to maintain your living. If you think that's wrong, then Bush isn't the president you should've been voting for. Because much of your need to rely on others, is his doing.

oh and about where did the debt come from, Americas riches today are based wholly on the fact they used us to keep rich after WW II

I think all nations should refuse to recognize debt.

I think all nations should refuse to recognize debt.
If you decide to run for prez, I'll come vote for you.

I think nations need to have a unified currency but, the would isnt unified enough for it.

Oh no i am cool with debt, mainly cause as a canadian i know our debt is literally owed to Canada lol lol. And because as we see with the treasury bonds...It makes us understand why nations like america that though technically are third world nations 70% under the poverty line for population. Do so well? its cause there leaders sell them out for money and any other advantage they can have :) then they lie and lie and lie and say everything that is true about say...Canada or even Britain...and claim it is the USA and Voila America nombre un de la monde! [one in the world or] America Uber alles, UBer alles in der Veldt!


$55 of every $100 in Canadian GDP is debt. $11 of every $100 in US GDP is debt..... Get your figures correct before you make dumbass remarks.... Researgh it before you regurgitate the Canadian line that the US owe's Canadians for anything other than your oil and timber. Here are my facts.
the facts (http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph-T/eco_deb_ext_gdp&ob=ws)

I will give you the only reason i have against banning national debts. Poor countries can at least borrow and go in to debt and get the things they desperately need, now imagine these sicko yankee companies not being able to rack up a tab...they would just say no and watch these people suffer worse then they already do, however ithink they should cancel the poor nations current debt and let em start over lol

Nice facts, did you get those in a cracker jacks box lol lol. Actually the truth is you still owe us for everything cause ytou know saying put it on my tab doesnt make it payed off lol. See i know its not your fault my fiance is american and she tells me about your school system. Facts are very simple. War debt from WWII alone is in the upwards of 1 trillion dollars thats jsut interest

I think all nations should refuse to recognize debt.

That's a real turn around. Didn't you start a thread the other day on how America is screwing Canada out of the debt owed them for softwood timber?

Now as i will say after looking at those facts you see youread it wrong. 55 cents is debt well we only have 350 billion debt and we make a tril a year..its that 55 cents from each dollar goes to PAYING debt whereas in the US they simply do what people do on there cred card and make the minimum payment, and no one has asked for more. In the commonwealth we take debt seriously, New Zealand increased its taxes to like 60% to eliminate its debt and it works its what we do too the Chretien government kept that as there mandate and we went from nearly a tril thanks to that conservative mulroney, to 350bil thanks to the moderate Centrist Liberals

Oh and as for softwood, ok now if a country illegally put tarrifs on say american cars, and the WTO and other organistions including there oh say supreme court said you cant do that pay them back...wopuldnt you expect to be payed back ohhh wait thats right! america only needs to make rules not follow them! ^.^
Thats because the american government is run by corporate criminals especially the bush government which is flagrantly the worst thing i have seen since the Tojo government in japan...i mean isnt it true bush wants to get rid of the two term limit now? :)


PS i say tojo gov cause i really think they were worse, See the germans were all for killing the jews and knew exactly what was going on literally making the whole nation monsters lol which is pretty much true. Now the japanese suffered under a war they knew nothing about and were only given a fantasy story. For instance the rape of nanjing was seen as a movie where literally a squad of japanese guys knocked over some british rich guys and kicked them in the butt till they left, they kept doing this till the people didnt know what to think at all..so they were worse they act just like the bush gov.

Now as i will say after looking at those facts you see youread it wrong. 55 cents is debt well we only have 350 billion debt and we make a tril a year..its that 55 cents from each dollar goes to PAYING debt :)

You make a comment about our school system and then make this comment. Gee.... where I went to school 55cents for every dollar is the equivilent of 55 dollars for every 100 dollars. Thats a debt of 55% from you 1.023 Trillion GDP. Well over the 350 billion you claim. You must be from Quebec....Je suis désolé, j'essaierai d'utiliser de plus petits mots

Hey now, you already envoked Godwin's law. You won that one. lol

Technically, invoking Godwin's law wins nothing, as it is simply a statement of fact regarding internet discussions.

Though there is the school of thought that believes that whoever first mentions nazis or hitler invokes Godwin's law, and thus loses the arguement automatically.

My opinion - if the shoe fits... :p

actually no lol and if you do read that that is how much debt is payed out says so on the page, anyways you guys have a 42 trillion dollar debt now and make 10 trillion a year we have a 350 billion dollar debt and make 1.4 tril a year with 34 million people do the math what percentage of 1.4 trillion is 350 billion, what percentage of 10 trillion is 42 trillion please and thank you

Also if you knew what our debt and GNP were well i mean my god 55 cents on a dollar for debt is obscene no you see the fact is the math is all wrong for it to be what we owe and DEFINETLY wrong for what you owe.

I agreed about nazi's actually i invoked Rome and Tojo japan lol

Technically, invoking Godwin's law wins nothing, as it is simply a statement of fact regarding internet discussions.

Though there is the school of thought that believes that whoever first mentions nazis or hitler invokes Godwin's law, and thus loses the arguement automatically.

My opinion - if the shoe fits... :p

You're right, but I don't think you lost the argument...

Besides, anyone who knows the history of WWII and Rome for instance finds more parralells in the death of the republic, or the Tojo regime then in the nazi's anyways

Also if you knew what our debt and GNP were well i mean my god 55 cents on a dollar for debt is obscene no you see the fact is the math is all wrong for it to be what we owe and DEFINETLY wrong for what you owe.


Well argue the facts with the CIA World Factbook or come up with your own. What it says is that 55% of what your GNP is goes to pay the debt you owe, foreign and domestic. And there is no stat in the world that will support your 42 trillion dollar debt you claim the US owes. our national debt in high, but near 8 trillion and around half of that is foreign debt in the form of treasury bonds... A safe investment since we do pay are bills....eventually.lol

lol The CIA factbook oh i have heard that evoked many a time, actually the fact is it would be impossible for us to owe so much debt at 350 billion with a gnp of 1.4 tril to actually need to pay that much, as i said its WILLING lol like any responsible person, Canada pays its debts...we dont like having it over our head and we have consecutively voted for the party to pay it,m under mulroney we didnt pay any debt at all, its why we owed so much in 92 seriously thats what hose numbers mean and the 42 tril is a total, its actually owed, my little bro and i had an argument and i showed him where it was [ i love discovery channel] essentially its been wracking up immensely, and its been masked under treasury bonds, the bonds themselves are still debt according to WTO so its 42 tril lol
the 8 tril is literally what you owed plus interest, interest is not figured in fact books, canada owes an interest of 37 odd bil on top of our debt.


Also you dont pay your bills at 11 cents going to pay off debt that would be impossible lol anyway fact books and the like are bogus, according to my little brother alexander the great didnt take over the world the way he did cause a fact book says its impossible, also Canada didnt win the war of 1812 our capital had 700 people yours had a million, once again impossible yet both wars were won by the little guy lol and its cause fact books contain simple facts not all of them, and not enough of them to actually give an accurate picture...plus who would trust a factbook from the people who shipped cocaine in to the states to fight communism

umm laissez faire...moral? ummm ok guys reality and another history check. Name the reason for the great depression. #1 rampant laissez faire capitalism #2 world war I now america entered at the end of WW I so umm why are they hurt by it they profitted selling supplies to both sides, only through Laissezz faire did they find the impetus needed to collapse the economy under greed. Now how did we gtet out of the depression, just to let you know Roosvelt was this close to going democratic commie.


They instead went...Socialist thats right. Everyone did now before you shout commie, socialism is what every non third world nation has, simply health care all that to save the burden on peoples money to keep consumerism going, government buys all essential companies and runs them to keepthem going. Very simple and it worked, only america literally only america went back to laissez faire after. Now your country is screwed cause the Euro is stealing your business your GNP dropped by 2/3 since bush came to office and well the more chinese and koreans who buy euros is less buying american dollars. This means less and less money each year. There was a special on CBC telling canadians to invest in american and canadian dollars to keep america going to stop a depression so yeah its pretty majour effect on the economy, plus 8% is owned by saudi arabia lol of your country i mean.
I disagree with you on so many levels, but I will say this about the Great Depression. The Depression started out as a normal recession. Perhaps it was a bit worse than usual, but I bet it'd correct itself in only a couple of years. But there were three main reasons whhy it happened, and all had to do with government intervention. First, tariffs rose greatly, resulting in needless trade wars. Second, the money supply was sharply contracted by the Fed, causing deflation. And third, the Fed started spot collecting its many loans from Europe, nearly bankrupting many of the central banks, there.

... oh my God...

Listen, I'm hesitant to use the word, but what you're saying sounds so fucking facist, it's beginning to scare me. America is not the Third Reich. We are not invincible. We are not all powerful.

These people, so far, are not asking for a debt. They are genuinely CONCERNED about us, and are trying to help those poor souls in New Orleans survive for another day.

How about this? You go down there, to the convention center in New Orleans, and preach your facist crap to them. I guarentee you not ONE of them will follow your ways.
Fascism is extremely different, as it emphasizes the collective over the individual, and there is often a cult figure. I do not worship any living person, and feel that no one has the right to subject an entire population, like the Gang of Twenty. I will say that they are not fascist. They are probably doing this just to expect favors later on, and not just from Washington, but from every American.

Speaking of Debt did you know america owes Canada so much moeny for one 1895 setting up the power grid 2 1917 converting there factories to modern for war time, 1941 doing the same WWII they owe us trillions by todays standards, the reconstruction of europe, America made Canada pay for it. PErsonally i think its about time you payed us the 32 tril you owe us
I have nothing against that. As it was in the past, it is a legitimate debt to pay off. I just don't want this stuff happening in the present.

You should be more worried about your nations economy. As it is, the American economy would collapse, if it wasn't kept afloat by (mainly) the EU and China. And the only reason people subsidise your nation, is because the world economy is based on the US$.
As it is, you very much are a cripple, relying on others to maintain your living. If you think that's wrong, then Bush isn't the president you should've been voting for. Because much of your need to rely on others, is his doing.
Your statement would be correct if it applied to the economy of the US government. The US economy at large is fine, if not living up to its potential. And I have no problems with interaction between nations' private sectors. They don't give and foster dependency on the grand scale of governments. Besides, Sony and Wal-Mart do not have the same resources or abilities as France or Sweden. The private sector can't whip up patriotic fervor, nor can it coerce people, nor can it be above the law. Governments can, and that's part of what's scaring me.

I love America, and I feel it is a great nation. That is why I feel that it should not accept foreign aid. Furthermore, those that offer government resources to help are criminals. They are forcefeeding an obese glutton.
You see, America does not simply have a right, but an obligation, a necessity, to help its own. That does not include allowing swindlers, vandals, and price gougers in foreign nations to slap hurricane victims across the face by trying to make them dependent, then asking favors in return. America should use its own, abundant resources to help with this disaster, and therefore, develop a sense of cohesion, solidarity, and purpose. It shouldn't let the work be done by a handful of criminals, which many (even if not all) of these governments are. I find it a moral abomination that foreigners should be ashamed of.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N01481437.htm

I agree that forigen nations have no right to say that we need to jack up the price to get as much money as possible. But right now we need to be a United States not a divided one. I agree that we should become independent of forigen nations completely and in all manners we should be self-suffiecent. But the world is still in our nieghborhood we must be neighborly I have Posted a thread with the intentions on lowering gas price but let us remember that there are almost two hundred thousand people down in New Orleans that NEED OUR SUPPORT and PRAYERS.

You do realize that you are the only one agreeing with your politics?
I would think that at least one person would be on your side if it was even plausable.
That one person probably exists, but is not here. NS is a leftist heaven, anyhow. But I don't mind being alone. In fact, I relish it.

I agree that forigen nations have no right to say that we need to jack up the price to get as much money as possible. But right now we need to be a United States not a divided one. I agree that we should become independent of forigen nations completely and in all manners we should be self-suffiecent. But the world is still in our nieghborhood we must be neighborly I have Posted a thread with the intentions on lowering gas price but let us remember that there are almost two hundred thousand people down in New Orleans that NEED OUR SUPPORT and PRAYERS.
It's not that I don't think they deserve help. They do. But if a foreign government helps, not only is it an infringement on US national sovereignty, but it detracts our government's role by making survivors dependent on foreign governments, if not physically, then emotionally and mentally. Perhaps no one gets it because of how I am speaking. I probably should substitute the word dependent with another, more common one: gratitude.

I realized another problem with my arguing which I should rectify. My critics here assume that I am driven by extreme patriotic fervor, and I have done nothing to counter that claim. I probably should, since it is leading to some wacky ideas about me.
My motivation is not patriotism, but law and morallity. I argue that other governments giving aid will make the US dependent. This is mostly true because I see most governments, and even societies, as morally weaker than the US. The US was built on individualism, whereas other societies are built on either socialism, patronage, or nepotism. Either way, it is dependency. The US, on the other hand, can give aid with less of a threat, because our society is plenty self sufficient emotionally (at least most are).
I also find it interesting when the left complains that the US gives the least aid aside Italy of any donor country as a percentage of GDP, despite being the highest in absolute terms. Yet I argue that it is precisely because of the nature of American society that not only allows this, but makes it better for everyone involved. In a sense, I could almost argue that the US can do no wrong, but not because the bureaocrats in Washington are always right. It is because of the moral radiance that this society gives off, which is the only one that puts the individual above society.
Of course, if Hong Kong were a proper nation, it'd be even better than the US. They are much further along at individualism. They just can't easily radiate it because it is an autonomous city in a very collectivist nation. It'd even be true if I wrote this ten years ago.

This is mostly true because I see most governments, and even societies, as morally weaker than the US. I just.... I mean.... I.... My God. Do some people really think like this?! That somehow Australia is communist or something?!!

Urgh, I shouldn't have come straight off the aintitcool.com talkbacks, my mind is clogged with hate-filled vitriol.

Regardless, I hope that the individual who started this thread needs assistance soon and realises that society only works when people do things together. Is individuality important? Absolutely! The world works as a balance between the needs of the singular and the needs of the whole, otherwise we either have Fascism or utter Anarchy. Neither option is particularly appealing to me.

I just.... I mean.... I.... My God. Do some people really think like this?! That somehow Australia is communist or something?!!

Urgh, I shouldn't have come straight off the aintitcool.com talkbacks, my mind is clogged with hate-filled vitriol.

Regardless, I hope that the individual who started this thread needs assistance soon and realises that society only works when people do things together. Is individuality important? Absolutely! The world works as a balance between the needs of the singular and the needs of the whole, otherwise we either have Fascism or utter Anarchy. Neither option is particularly appealing to me.
The trouble is where many want to set the balance. The current consensus is that the balance must be set so that society can ultimately subjugate an individual, even if it doesn't do so all the time. Yet an individual, I believe, can only expect the help of society in physical protection. That comes from the government. Yet the government must be a monopoly in a geographic area to prevent chaos. That is just one reason why I oppose foreign aid.

This is mostly true because I see most governments, and even societies, as morally weaker than the US

*Sniff* You smell that? That smells like arrogance.

You put too much faith in the American government.

*Sniff* You smell that? That smells like arrogance.

You put too much faith in the American government.
I do because of the people that create it. Individual bureaocrats are sometimes bad, and can mess everything up. But they go away after a while. That's democracy. The US is furthest along at being a moral society.

......dependent with another, more common one: gratitude.

you don't think america should be GRATEFUL to another country?surely it owes that,whatcha call it,'Coalition of the Willing' of debt of gratitude for helping in iraq,it owes ireland a debt of gratitude for us letting you shannon airport to re-fuel your warplanes(despite protests and considerable damage done to a plane by pacifist anarchist protesters with hammers,flowers,pictures of iraqi war victims,a copy of the bible and the koran,and the buddist holy text[forget the name])gratitude has NOTHING to do with dependancy

gratitude: The state of being grateful; thankfulness.
dependancy:1. The state of being dependent, as for support.
2.
a. Subordination to someone or something needed or greatly desired.
b. Trust; reliance. See Synonyms at trust.
3. The state of being determined, influenced, or controlled by something else.
4. A compulsive or chronic need; an addiction: an alcohol dependence.

if the US accepted support it would not become dependant,it would be(well it should)grateful.the support might not even be monetary,it might be workers,doctors,etc to help with the rebuilding process

I do because of the people that create it. Individual bureaocrats are sometimes bad, and can mess everything up. But they go away after a while. That's democracy. The US is furthest along at being a moral society.
Fuck morals. Morals, in my opinion, should not be woven in with politics. I believe a politician should have neutral feelings about ANY issue, and should do what benefits a majority of the population.

Anyways, here's my main arguement about the "Gang of Twenty"

These people are only trying to help. They are not expecting any return or dependence. They just want to help their fellow nation get through this.

The trouble is where many want to set the balance. The current consensus is that the balance must be set so that society can ultimately subjugate an individual, even if it doesn't do so all the time. Yet an individual, I believe, can only expect the help of society in physical protection. That comes from the government. Yet the government must be a monopoly in a geographic area to prevent chaos. That is just one reason why I oppose foreign aid. I'm having a hard time understanding this. So you're saying that your nation should reject all foreign aid both private and public? Do you seriously think that Japan, Britain and Australia are somehow attempting to undermine the U.S.A. through offering them help? This "dependent" spiel doesn't really wash with me, because we're only offering a lump sum, offering mind you. Nobody is forcing the United States to accept this donation. It is assistance to a friend who we know wouldn't heasitate to do the same for us, and for which we're always very grateful.

Imagine if all neighbours acted the same way you're suggesting. We'd be a world of selfish assholes.

"Hey Mike, can I borrow your hammer?"
"Make your own hammer you lazy bum!"
"Sheesh."

Do I think that collectivism can go too far? Absolutely! Herd mentality and groupthink can have hideous consequences. But you're suggesting an absolutely extreme option, where nobody can ever trust or rely on anyone. To me, that sounds like a horrible place to live.

We all have to share this planet, I figure we might as well be nice about it.

BTW, what would've happened to the millions of people in Indonesia if we ignored their plight in 2004?

Fuck morals. Morals, in my opinion, should not be woven in with politics. I believe a politician should have neutral feelings about ANY issue, and should do what benefits a majority of the population.

Anyways, here's my main arguement about the "Gang of Twenty"

These people are only trying to help. They are not expecting any return or dependence. They just want to help their fellow nation get through this.
Without morals, a society has nothing.

I'm having a hard time understanding this. So you're saying that your nation should reject all foreign aid both private and public?
The rest of the paragraph is a regurgitation of this critical question. Private help iis fine, as I've stated before. For one, it is the work of individuals, not a society, as public aid is. For another, a private individual can't amass the same resources as a society, mostly being law and force. Instead, a private individual is subjected to law. Governments aren't.
Imagine if all neighbours acted the same way you're suggesting. We'd be a world of selfish assholes.

"Hey Mike, can I borrow your hammer?"
"Make your own hammer you lazy bum!"
"Sheesh."

It's better than giving him the hammer, as these foreign swindlers wish to do.
BTW, what would've happened to the millions of people in Indonesia if we ignored their plight in 2004?
Not much. Indonesia is still a miserable place. As is Sri Lanka. No one can remember that Sri Lanka slipped back into chaos after a near truce. They are no different than before.

if the US accepted support it would not become dependant,it would be(well it should)grateful.the support might not even be monetary,it might be workers,doctors,etc to help with the rebuilding process
The bit I deleted only applies if we talk about governments helping governments. The "Coalition of the Willing" existed because it was in the self interest of the involved nations, not because they were threatened with force. As for what I left in, that'd be even worse if it came from a government. It should only be private sector.

A lot of these countries are either socialist pigs, or toltalitarian strongmen. .

I say Capitalist pigs.

It's better than giving him the hammer, as these foreign swindlers wish to do.

foriegn swindelers?they're offering aid to help SAVE LIVES,not overthrow your mighty american society,or swindle you out of money.

now children,can you say paranoid?pa-ra-noid

The bit I deleted only applies if we talk about governments helping governments.

isn't that the topic of this thread,you're opposed to the american government accepting aid from foriegn governments?

foriegn swindelers?they're offering aid to help SAVE LIVES,not overthrow your mighty american society,or swindle you out of money.

now children,can you say paranoid?pa-ra-noid
They are looking to do neither. What they are looking to do is sustain their unworkable systems by feeding from American society and economic power, not realizing that they can suck the well dry one of these days.
Edit: About your edit, yes. It is more dangerous, as the UK or Honduras or any of them was not hit by Katrina. They have no self interest other than to fill their cesspools of dependency with American good will and power. It's a ponzi scheme.

They are looking to do neither. What they are looking to do is sustain their unworkable systems by feeding from American society and economic power, not realizing that they can suck the well dry one of these days.


Uh-huh. I give you an apple. How exactly am I feeding from you?

Uh-huh. I give you an apple. How exactly am I feeding from you?
Do you know what a metaphor is?

Without morals, a society has nothing.
Do you have proof that a government that tried to govern without morals collapsed?

They are looking to do neither. What they are looking to do is sustain their unworkable systems by feeding from American society and economic power, not realizing that they can suck the well dry one of these days.
Edit: About your edit, yes. It is more dangerous, as the UK or Honduras or any of them was not hit by Katrina. They have no self interest other than to fill their cesspools of dependency with American good will and power. It's a ponzi scheme.

offering aid in time's of disater has nothing to do with politics,or schemes,or self interest.aside possibly from looking generous.

Do you know what a metaphor is?

Yes. Do you know what an offer of aid is?

Do you have proof that a government that tried to govern without morals collapsed?
Proof in philosophy does not exist, nor will it ever exist. Furthermore, morals are subjective to the extreme. However, the USSR, as I see it, was extremely immoral, developing a great ponzi scheme to make half of the world blind to the fact that they were really miserable. Of course, when the superior forces of individual liberty came, half the world was emancipated. Needless to say, Russia and a few other fmr. Soviet Republics are only half way there, but most nations in Moscow's talons are progressing in economic and human terms.

Proof in philosophy does not exist, nor will it ever exist.

Within axiomatic systems it most assuredly does.

offering aid in time's of disater has nothing to do with politics,or schemes,or self interest.aside possibly from looking generous.
But they should have self interests for their own, not for themselves. A government should serve its own people, and not serve others to win brownie points back home. That's what I mean by feeding.

But they should have self interests for their own, not for themselves. A government should serve its own people, and not serve others to win brownie points back home. That's what I mean by feeding.

And what if it is the will of the people that institutions be established and maintained by a government for the purpose of international aid?

But they should have self interests for their own, not for themselves. A government should serve its own people, and not serve others to win brownie points back home. That's what I mean by feeding.

Yes, let's all just be concerned about our own people.

I mean, being racists (not sure what it would be for another country) against other countries is great! They don't suffer like we do, anyway. Who cares if they die in some natural disaster? [/sarcasm]

Within axiomatic systems it most assuredly does.
I always thought that anything intellectual is too quantitative these days. It's a little disheartening.

And what if it is the will of the people that institutions be established and maintained by a government for the purpose of international aid?
Leeching. Unless a world agency like this has the power to reform human institutions, everything about it would be the weak living off the strong.

On behalf of the Borderlands of Denier:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/NuGo1988/helpUS.jpg

Leeching. Unless a world agency like this has the power to reform human institutions, everything about it would be the weak living off the strong.

So in this instance as you see it, it would be the weak capitalist Americans living off the strong socialists around the world?

So in this instance as you see it, it would be the weak capitalist Americans living off the strong socialists around the world?
Of course not. Socialism is quite weak. So is any other system of dependency.

Of course not. Socialism is quite weak. So is any other system of dependency.
... I'm sorry, but I take offense at that. See, I'm a socialist, and I believe socialism is progressing VERY well. Sweden is progressing well with socialism. So is Canada, and probably a few other countries I cannot think of at the moment.

Open your eyes and look around you.

I just want to say that I have been on here for two years as one nation or another. I have had only one other thread that was so hot. And boy, when I wrote that other thread, I was much more indecisive than I am now.

... I'm sorry, but I take offense at that. See, I'm a socialist, and I believe socialism is progressing VERY well. Sweden is progressing well with socialism. So is Canada, and probably a few other countries I cannot think of at the moment.

Open your eyes and look around you.
I do. I see the crumbling of any individual spirit. But there are lots of different threads to debate this on. For now, we can agree to disagree.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=a0.gjA9574Jg&refer=europe
What I feared has begun.

Tell me lotus, Is there any countrys other than America, that you actually like? This excludes germany under Hitler.

Tell me lotus, Is there any countrys other than America, that you actually like? This excludes germany under Hitler.
Please! I am a polar opposite from a fascist. However, I do like Hong Kong. They are better than the US. Japan and the UK are inching that way, though that idiot of a pm keeps the UK down. Japan has the opposite problem: great pm, shitty society and bureaucracy. I wonder how Koizumi has survived for that long.

Please! I am a polar opposite from a fascist.
Actually, Facism is an extreme form of capitalism.

However, I do like Hong Kong

i know someone said it earlier but hong kong isnt a country,its a city

I would just like to say as a consevative, right-wing "nut job" to all those nations offering aid to the United States in our time of need. "Thank you for your generosity. It is greatly appreciated by the vast majority of Americans, and most especially by those directly effected by the disaster. As I sat down and watched the news coverage (something I recommend Lotus doing) my heart broke as I saw children, elderly, and 5 day old babies dying of dehydration with no help in sight. I have never seen anything like this in my life. Your compassion can never be repayed."

Actually, Facism is an extreme form of capitalism.
Oh, it is, but only to the extent that it emphasizes that businesses serve the state. Nazi Germany, for example, manipulated the economy with forced boycotts and massive subsidies. I believe in none of that. And before you say it, no, I am not in support of agricultural subsidies.

i know someone said it earlier but hong kong isnt a country,its a city
I know. But they have managed to be autonomous for most domestic affairs.

Oh, great. The mods are in the process of merging threads on Katrina and aid. I hate when they do that. It's so confusing to find 'em.

The... population of 45 million are effectively ruled by a group of massive corporations, who run for political office and provide their well-off citizens with world-class goods and services. Their poorer citizens, however, are mostly starving to death while being urged to go out and get real jobs.

Take a look at Lotus' country. It says a lot.

I do. I see the crumbling of any individual spirit. But there are lots of different threads to debate this on. For now, we can agree to disagree.
I'm sorry, but I'm not going to take this.

You are BLIND. Socialism is progressing well. The countries that DO practice it (Like Canada) have not collapsed now have they? Far from it. The people are HAPPY(Most anyway).

The... population of 45 million are effectively ruled by a group of massive corporations, who run for political office and provide their well-off citizens with world-class goods and services. Their poorer citizens, however, are mostly starving to death while being urged to go out and get real jobs.

Take a look at Lotus' country. It says a lot.
And what is wrong with this?

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to take this.

You are BLIND. Socialism is progressing well. The countries that DO practice it (Like Canada) have not collapsed now have they? Far from it. The people are HAPPY(Most anyway).
Fine. Call me blind. I'm a gay, fascist, faggotted pig. Happy now?

And what is wrong with this?

lets not let this go off on a tangent on how lotus runs his country,it has limited relevance to the thread

And what is wrong with this?
Their poorer citizens, however, are mostly starving to death
wtf? Did you actually read your own description?

Fine. Call me blind. I'm a gay, fascist, faggotted pig. Happy now?

argh no,stop the flaming!both of you!

argh no,stop the flaming!both of you!
The only person I'm flaming is myself. But I just won't talk to Poland- if it makes you happy.

I'm not flaming, but I'll drop this arguement. I'm just a bit offended by your statements, but I apologize if I was... a bit rash.

Tuckered out, boys?

Nah, we're just taking a small break. We'll get back to calling you a moron later. ;)

Nah, we're just taking a small break. We'll get back to calling you a moron later. ;)
That's nice to know. BTW, it's up to fourty nations.

Well isn't it nice knowing the plight of New Orleans abandoned poor has touched the governments of forty other nations, all of whom wish to render assistance in this, America's time of need?

Well isn't it nice knowing the plight of New Orleans abandoned poor has touched the governments of forty other nations, all of whom wish to render assistance in this, America's time of need?
IIf they wish to help so badly, why don't they buy New Orleans munis?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10001099&sid=arESneY6CKik&refer=energy
The IEA is tapping into its gasoline reserves. This will make consumers rejoice, and maybe even myself. But it is thouroughly wrong in principle, not only for the reasons stated above, but also because the reserve must be used in times of war, and only then. If Europe and Japan were so eager to supply gas, they should've sold it from their refineries. At the very least, these foreign governments should sell the gas, and not just stuff it down out throats.

IIf they wish to help so badly, why don't they buy New Orleans munis?
I have no idea. Maybe some of these countries can't afford to send money. Maybe they've got food and clothing. What is it with you, Lotus Puppy? Didn't you ever learn you don't look a gift horse in the mouth? You accept aid graciously, and make use of whatever it is you're given freely. It's mind-blowingly bad form to set terms for rendering assistance, especially as people are still at high risk of death by disease or predation throughout New Orleans.

I have no idea. Maybe some of these countries can't afford to send money. Maybe they've got food and clothing. What is it with you, Lotus Puppy? Didn't you ever learn you don't look a gift horse in the mouth? You accept aid graciously, and make use of whatever it is you're given freely. It's mind-blowingly bad form to set terms for rendering assistance, especially as people are still at high risk of death by disease or predation throughout New Orleans.
Gifts coming from governments are not to be accepted. Just cooperative exchanges, like most good men and women do.

At the very least, these foreign governments should sell the gas, and not just stuff it down out throats.
Oh yay. What next? The Red Cross selling antibiotics? :rolleyes:

Oh yay. What next? The Red Cross selling antibiotics? :rolleyes:
They can give because they are the private sector, and I outlined differences between the two. Of course, if the Salvation Army had a militant wing, it shouldn't give a dime.

Please! I am a polar opposite from a fascist. However, I do like Hong Kong. They are better than the US. Japan and the UK are inching that way, though that idiot of a pm keeps the UK down. Japan has the opposite problem: great pm, shitty society and bureaucracy. I wonder how Koizumi has survived for that long.

Hong Kong and every other country or city who offered help to New Orleans would like to tell Lotus Puppy that he/she is a moronic loser.

Hong Kong and every other country or city who offered help to New Orleans would like to tell Lotus Puppy that he/she is a moronic loser.
Well, I guess Hong Kong could do something, as it has an independent currency and customs system.

Private sector globalization, which breeds independence. Political globalization gave us horrors like terrorism and non-state actors.


Non-state actors??? Dear god, the horror! When will those International Red Cross bastards stop the genocide?

Non-state actors??? Dear god, the horror? When will those International Red Cross bastards stop the genocide?
You must be talking about something completely different.

Lotus Puppy your insistance that everyone should live how you think they should, is not an act of higher morality, but rather the act of a control freak. That you seem to think you are for freedom is laughable. If the people of some other nation wish to share their resources with each other through the collection and redistribution of resources, then what is immoral about that? For many of us it works out well enough, so far as I can see in at least some aspects, better than the 'morally superior US' system you keep harping on about.

What exactly is so morally superior about the US? The fact that people are so worked up over sexuality a woman risks abuse if she breast feeds her baby in public, while meanwhile MTV is simply an excuse to broadcast soft-porn smut? Or the fact that you cannot borrow a library book with the confidence that no shady 'intelligence' organisation will snoop into your lending history? Or the fact that there is plenty of money to imprison drug addicts but next to none when it comes to offering the rehab services that might have gotten them off drugs and kept them out of prison. Maybe its the extreme gap between the rich and the poor that makes you so proud, or perhaps its the forced experimentation on poverty stricken New York children (including in some cases forced removal from parents who objected)? You tell me, my list could go on and on and on and I still wouldnt see this wonderous morality you are proclaiming. :confused:

America is far from being the worst place in the world, but I dont see that it has claims to being 'the most moral country on earth', and nor do I see that dog eat dog, free for all is necessarily more moral than cooperation and mutual concern.

all that I have read from Lotus Puppy just proves that he is a morinic idiot, who feels that the US should shove aid down other countries throats but when the US needs help they should just stuff there heads in the sand and pray the reason for the aid goes away by it self.and his idea that any country that wants to give aid are criminals well seeing that the US gives out how many billions in aid makes them criminals as well

You must be talking about something completely different.

You know, my personal saviour, J.R. 'Bob' Dobbs (http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/pics9/dobbsheads-TN/_dobbs3x4.html), said of Pinkboys and the Glorps who fed off them, 'they may be Pink, but their money's green...'

Just take the help and say 'thanks for thinking of us'. The situation isn't being handled well - what did you expect, everyone to kick back and laugh at all of you? Would that've made you feel better somehow? Would it've made the people in New Orleans any happier?

I could care less about the Prez' ego, or America's image. Damnit, this isn't some stupid bit of cockery. This is about people who are sick and hungry who need help now. Not in a few days, man...

I could care less about the Prez' ego, or America's image. Damnit, this isn't some stupid bit of cockery. This is about people who are sick and hungry who need help now. Not in a few days, man...
Well said (or typed to be pedantic)!

Frankly I think it is time that certain factions and sub-groups within the US gave up this idea of trying to solve every problem by finding an enemy to be angry at. Surely when dead bodies are floating down the street, and people just want to help, it is time to realise that finding someone to hate (especially when that someone is the people who desperately want to help) is not a constructive solution, or even a solution at all. In fact is it down-right pathological.

Well said (or typed to be pedantic)!

Frankly I think it is time that certain factions and sub-groups within the US gave up this idea of trying to solve every problem by finding an enemy to be angry at. Surely when dead bodies are floating down the street, and people just want to help, it is time to realise that finding someone to hate (especially when that someone is the people who desperately want to help) is not a constructive solution, or even a solution at all. In fact is it down-right pathological.
Turning your backs on gifts freely given in light of death-dealing disaster oughtta be considered depraved indifference or proof of gross incompetence at any rate - and be rewarded with an impeachment or two.

Damnit Americans - I know a number of you think I'm just some smug foreigner, and maybe I am - but c'mon now - don't you honestly think you and your fellow Americans deserved better than this fiasco? Shit doesn't just roll downhill - it piles up if you keep squeezin' it out, and Bush and Pals are realizing just how much shit is piling up around their lofty perches. The smell offends them.

Bet they'll simply elevate their perches rather than shovel up their own crap instead.

Quick note; the most moralistic country in the world is Iran.

Also, Australia is offering it's money through donation to the American Red Cross.

Lotus Puppy your insistance that everyone should live how you think they should, is not an act of higher morality, but rather the act of a control freak. That you seem to think you are for freedom is laughable. If the people of some other nation wish to share their resources with each other through the collection and redistribution of resources, then what is immoral about that? For many of us it works out well enough, so far as I can see in at least some aspects, better than the 'morally superior US' system you keep harping on about.

What exactly is so morally superior about the US? The fact that people are so worked up over sexuality a woman risks abuse if she breast feeds her baby in public, while meanwhile MTV is simply an excuse to broadcast soft-porn smut? Or the fact that you cannot borrow a library book with the confidence that no shady 'intelligence' organisation will snoop into your lending history? Or the fact that there is plenty of money to imprison drug addicts but next to none when it comes to offering the rehab services that might have gotten them off drugs and kept them out of prison. Maybe its the extreme gap between the rich and the poor that makes you so proud, or perhaps its the forced experimentation on poverty stricken New York children (including in some cases forced removal from parents who objected)? You tell me, my list could go on and on and on and I still wouldnt see this wonderous morality you are proclaiming. :confused:

America is far from being the worst place in the world, but I dont see that it has claims to being 'the most moral country on earth', and nor do I see that dog eat dog, free for all is necessarily more moral than cooperation and mutual concern.
Much of what you describe is personal morality. It is a virtue to have, a thing to share, and a crime to impose. I'm talking about social morality, which I believe consists of two thing: physical protection from force, and noninterference. As you noted, and I agree, the US is a long way from perfecting either one. But it is the closest of any major society. Take the USA PATRIOT Act. I don't like it at all. But many fail to realize that some developed countries, like South Korea, France, and now the UK, have much tougher antiterror measures that some even characterize as a "violation of human rights". I wouldn't go that far, but it shows that their governments feel that they are the law, or even above it. I don't believe that.

You know, my personal saviour, J.R. 'Bob' Dobbs (http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/pics9/dobbsheads-TN/_dobbs3x4.html), said of Pinkboys and the Glorps who fed off them, 'they may be Pink, but their money's green...'

Just take the help and say 'thanks for thinking of us'. The situation isn't being handled well - what did you expect, everyone to kick back and laugh at all of you? Would that've made you feel better somehow? Would it've made the people in New Orleans any happier?

I could care less about the Prez' ego, or America's image. Damnit, this isn't some stupid bit of cockery. This is about people who are sick and hungry who need help now. Not in a few days, man...
I'm not being cocky. I'm trying to wrong an injustice.

i think lotus puppie in an emergency, and if you were desperate you may even consider exepting aid from saten herself :p

Quick note; the most moralistic country in the world is Iran.

Their leaders have morals. Individual morals. They would be happier if they kept them to themselves, and not try to impose them by fiat. Besides, unlike the morals of a society like the US, these morals can't be taught to most everyone.

Blood money hurts victims.

Whereas hurricane Katrina delivered small tinsel-wrapped presents, and butterfly-kisses on the cheek?

Get over it, my friend.

There are people in this country right now dying... literally, while you argue about whether you feel it's 'okay' to accept aid.

Their leaders have morals. Individual morals. They would be happier if they kept them to themselves, and not try to impose them by fiat. Besides, unlike the morals of a society like the US, these morals can't be taught to most everyone.
Eye of the beholder & stuff :p

Anyway, I'm curious. Would you mind telling me a bit about your political ideology? You keep telling us that you're not a fascist, yet it's hard not to peg you as one. So, mind setting me (and the rest of the horde) straight?

Eye of the beholder & stuff :p

Anyway, I'm curious. Would you mind telling me a bit about your political ideology? You keep telling us that you're not a fascist, yet it's hard not to peg you as one. So, mind setting me (and the rest of the horde) straight?
I'll start by saying this: I'm accepted by few. The left hates me for my emphasis on capitalism. The right hates me for my radicalism. And liberatarians hate me because I am much too practical.
I believe that every man is sovereign over himself, able to control his destiny. Each man is unique, and must be allowed to be independent. Society is not to subjugate him, not even as a child. Furthermore, society is not to be subjugated by any power on this earth, bar one: law. The law is these morals I set out of non interference in human affairs, save physical protection. The government is not the law. Rather, they are the device to enforce the law, and have the priviledge of making new ones only for the purpose of carrying out their mandate.
Because the government is a regional monopoly, other national governments should not work with it in its jurisdiction, especially if that government works above the law.
And finally, I believe firmly in humankind, and every individual is capable. If you wish to help your fellow man, help yourself first. You help mankind the minute you try not to.

I'll start by saying this: I'm accepted by few. The left hates me for my emphasis on capitalism. The right hates me for my radicalism. And liberatarians hate me because I am much too practical.
I believe that every man is sovereign over himself, able to control his destiny. Each man is unique, and must be allowed to be independent. Society is not to subjugate him, not even as a child. Furthermore, society is not to be subjugated by any power on this earth, bar one: law. The law is these morals I set out of non interference in human affairs, save physical protection. The government is not the law. Rather, they are the device to enforce the law, and have the priviledge of making new ones only for the purpose of carrying out their mandate.
Because the government is a regional monopoly, other national governments should not work with it in its jurisdiction, especially if that government works above the law.
And finally, I believe firmly in humankind, and every individual is capable. If you wish to help your fellow man, help yourself first. You help mankind the minute you try not to.

And, in order to go down, you must first go up....

And, if you balance your attacks, you can take your attacker off balance...

I think I saw this manifesto on "Mystery Men"....

And, in order to go down, you must first go up....

And, if you balance your attacks, you can take your attacker off balance...

I think I saw this manifesto on "Mystery Men"....
Nice to know. It's actually a bit fun being the only person I can find with my beliefs, partly because of what you said.

Thank god that your beliefs will die with you. I can see no country, not even the US, electing you to any sort of office. Your beliefs are just to absurd to be put into any practical use!

Lotus Puppy you aren't the only one with your beliefs:

"A wise and frugal government which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government." – Thomas Jefferson (1801)

I am a conservative libertarian. I don't hate your beliefs. Having beliefs like yours is why I am a Libertarian.

Do you people actually think that foreigners aid can actually help these people? You act like the rescue attempts are a failure. I would remind you foolish liberals that had it been for you, the military helicopters, trucks, planes, and ships used to save these people wouldn't even exist. This was quite possibly the largest natural disaster ever to befall the US population. It takes around 18 hours to mobilize the National Guard. I wouldn't expect you to know that. Why don't i hear any liberals praising the military or other agencies who are actually saving people. Just like they always do the liberals only whine. Exactly how fast were they supposed to respond? I would like to thank the people, including Bush, who,could possibly have been a little faster, for their hard and successful work. Bush had to make the governor issue the mandatory evacuation in the first place. Why don't you guys just continue to ignore that?

Relative to their GDP, the public sector debt is 150%. That is because of several hand-me-outs and public sector spending. Junchiro Koizumi is a strong man to want to change the status quo. His colleagues aren't.

No, it is in a large way due to conservative pork-barrel politicking and also unwise investments during the 80s and the economic crash of the early 90s that left many banks teetering on the edge of foreclosure. My god man, Japan is nowhere near socialist, much to my personal sadness.

Japan has the opposite problem: great pm, shitty society and bureaucracy. Excuse me?

Lotus Puppy you aren't the only one with your beliefs:

"A wise and frugal government which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government." – Thomas Jefferson (1801)

I am a conservative libertarian. I don't hate your beliefs. Having beliefs like yours is why I am a Libertarian.

Do you people actually think that foreigners aid can actually help these people? You act like the rescue attempts are a failure. I would remind you foolish liberals that had it been for you, the military helicopters, trucks, planes, and ships used to save these people wouldn't even exist. This was quite possibly the largest natural disaster ever to befall the US population. It takes around 18 hours to mobilize the National Guard. I wouldn't expect you to know that. Why don't i hear any liberals praising the military or other agencies who are actually saving people. Just like they always do the liberals only whine. Exactly how fast were they supposed to respond? I would like to thank the people, including Bush, who,could possibly have been a little faster, for their hard and successful work. Bush had to make the governor issue the mandatory evacuation in the first place. Why don't you guys just continue to ignore that?
Thanks for that show of support. Though I'm not exactly a liberatarian, I do like quite a few liberatarian ideals.

No, it is in a large way due to conservative pork-barrel politicking and also unwise investments during the 80s and the economic crash of the early 90s that left many banks teetering on the edge of foreclosure. My god man, Japan is nowhere near socialist, much to my personal sadness.

I see. And why are pensions and retirement benefits are all paid for by the state?

Much of what you describe is personal morality.
Morality is morality. Personal/social simply refer to the scale at which it is occuring.

It is a virtue to have, a thing to share, and a crime to impose. I'm talking about social morality, which I believe consists of two thing: physical protection from force, and noninterference.
Physical protection from what kind of force? Is it moral to say 'we will protect that person because it is another person endangering them, but we wont protect that other person because what is endangering them is not another human being? Sounds more like irresponsibility than morality.

As you noted, and I agree, the US is a long way from perfecting either one. But it is the closest of any major society. Take the USA PATRIOT Act. I don't like it at all. But many fail to realize that some developed countries, like South Korea, France, and now the UK, have much tougher antiterror measures that some even characterize as a "violation of human rights". I wouldn't go that far, but it shows that their governments feel that they are the law, or even above it. I don't believe that.
Oh that's great, because some nations might be worse and some people 'fail' to realise this, suddenly the US is therefore the best...is it the fact that some but not all nations might be worse, that makes the US best, or the failure of people to realise some but not all are worse, or is it (as I suspect) that you fail to realise that there are developed nations where people are more free than they are in the US....?

Physical protection from what kind of force? Is it moral to say 'we will protect that person because it is another person endangering them, but we wont protect that other person because what is endangering them is not another human being? Sounds more like irresponsibility than morality.

Here you go again. Anyhow, that force often comes in the form of another human being. But it sometimes, though rarely, comes in the form of nature. Thus, it is the job of the government, and the government alone, to protect its citizens. Anything more is a sin in my book.
Oh that's great, because some nations might be worse and some people 'fail' to realise this, suddenly the US is therefore the best...is it the fact that some but not all nations might be worse, that makes the US best, or the failure of people to realise some but not all are worse, or is it (as I suspect) that you fail to realise that there are developed nations where people are more free than they are in the US....?
I only say the US is best because it is the least bad. Other nations have more rights specifically enumerated, but they are merely rights that reinforce freedom of expression. The US constitution solved the problem of constantly updating rights with the Ninth Amendment, which says, in layman's terms, that jjust because a right isn't listed in the constitution doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. The liberal use of the Commerce Clause has limited that, but it isn't to the point of many societies.
As for other facets of rights, very few countries have as many economic freedoms or as developed of a judicial system to protect those rights, and none (bar Hong Kong) have both.