NationStates Jolt Archive

One year ago today brave Chechen freedom fighters slaughtered over three hundred defenseless schoolchildren and teachers. How can you not sympathize with their cause? [/sarcasm]

Seriously, my thoughts are with the survivors and the families of the dead and with all the Russian people.

One year ago today brave Chechen freedom fighters slaughtered over three hundred defenseless schoolchildren and teachers. How can you not sympathize with their cause? [/sarcasm]

Seriously, my thoughts are with the survivors and the families of the dead and with all the Russian people.

You also forgot to mention the daring Russian rescue attempt which caught the captives in a cross fire. And Russia did such a good job on investigating what went wrong that the families want to be able to leave the country.[/Sarcasm]

On Topic I do hope that the families can piece their lives back togehter. This situation with the Chechen's can only come to an end if both sides are willing to stop attacking eachother and actually talk to and listen to the other sides.

God...DC.....I had never heard of that. How horrible. Now I have to go google it......

I was reading a news article about the headmaster of the school, a 73-year old woman. She's come under fire from a lot of the parents of killed children. A lot of them blame her for their children's deaths and say that she might have been in league with the terrorists, since her grandchildren weren't among the ones killed. It was really a heartbreaking article, to hear her speak about the incident.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_massacre


my God....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_massacre


my God....

Got to love Russian rescue ops eh? :rolleyes:

Got to love Russian rescue ops eh? :rolleyes:
Why are you blaming the Russians when the Chechen terrorist scumbags are the ones who took the school hostage, wired the gymnasium full of children to explode, and raped schoolgirls and female teachers to pass the time?

Why are you blaming the Russians when the Chechen terrorist scumbags are the ones who took the school hostage, wired the gymnasium full of children to explode, and raped schoolgirls and female teachers to pass the time?

Not to disagree with your main point, but I do believe the stories of rape were later discovered to be fabrications.

Why are you blaming the Russians when the Chechen terrorist scumbags are the ones who took the school hostage, wired the gymnasium full of children to explode, and raped schoolgirls and female teachers to pass the time?

Did I say I blamed them? No my comment is more a criticism of the heavy handedness that was used in situations like this in Russia during a hostage crisis. I do believe the part about raping schoolgirls was a rumor.

Many hostages, especially children, took off their shirts and other articles of clothing because of the sweltering heat within—which led to rumors of sexual assault once the raid was over, though the hostages later explained it was merely due to the stifling heat. From Wikipedia

I am not condoning what the Chechen's did. But I do believe that the problems stemming from the Chechen/Russia problem does not fall solely on the Chechens. I think their methods of taking hostages and using suicide bombers is horrible and should not be tolerated. I just think that storming the school with troops and a tank was a little much.

Why are you blaming the Russians when the Chechen terrorist scumbags are the ones who took the school hostage, wired the gymnasium full of children to explode, and raped schoolgirls and female teachers to pass the time?

I'm honestly surprised someone's not blaming Bush for this.

I'd wondered why I'd heard stories of rape early on and then they seemed to disappear from the account. Still, that incident makes me want to cheer the Russians on when they take military action in Chechnia. The Chechens lost any chance at sympathy from me with this attack and the Moscow theater attack several years ago.

I'd wondered why I'd heard stories of rape early on and then they seemed to disappear from the account. Still, that incident makes me want to cheer the Russians on when they take military action in Chechnia. The Chechens lost any chance at sympathy from me with this attack and the Moscow theater attack several years ago.

Its true that the methods they are using are horrible and target civillians and children who really shouldnt be touched. But when you have a small group like the Chechens going up against a force the size of Russia well conventional warfare really wont work. They are going to try to cause the most damage physically and psychologically with the resources they have and thats what their tactics have been doing.

I'd wondered why I'd heard stories of rape early on and then they seemed to disappear from the account. Still, that incident makes me want to cheer the Russians on when they take military action in Chechnia. The Chechens lost any chance at sympathy from me with this attack and the Moscow theater attack several years ago.

Doesn't that seem like the wrong attitude to take? Just because some extremists did something reprehensible does not mean that all Chechens are responsible. That whole destroy-the-village-for-the-crimes-of-one-member feels very USSR to me, and I know that's something that you've denounced before.

Doesn't that seem like the wrong attitude to take? Just because some extremists did something reprehensible does not mean that all Chechens are responsible. That whole destroy-the-village-for-the-crimes-of-one-member feels very USSR to me, and I know that's something that you've denounced before.
I've got a short fuse when it comes to women and children being targeted and killed. I can understand that it happens by accident in a war, but to intentionally go out and kill women and children makes me think there's something seriously wrong with the culture the killers come from and that culture needs to be reformed by force if necessary.

I've got a short fuse when it comes to women and children being targeted and killed. I can understand that it happens by accident in a war, but to intentionally go out and kill women and children makes me think there's something seriously wrong with the culture the killers come from and that culture needs to be reformed by force if necessary.

But it's not a cultural thing. It's a group of extremists. No one would say that Timothy McVeigh was a representative of American culture, and he intentionally blew up a building that he knew included a day care center.

But it's not a cultural thing. It's a group of extremists. No one would say that Timothy McVeigh was a representative of American culture, and he intentionally blew up a building that he knew included a day care center.
But he is the representative of a certain segment of American culture. The Christian-identity "survivalist" culture. Those types all agree with Mc Veigh, and even with Osama in that they praise his attack on "Jew York".

The Chechen terrorists are representatives of a big chunk of Chechen culture. The part that makes it's money through organized crime and spends it's money on attacking Russia.

But he is the representative of a certain segment of American culture. The Christian-identity "survivalist" culture. Those types all agree with Mc Veigh, and even with Osama in that they praise his attack on "Jew York".

The Chechen terrorists are representatives of a big chunk of Chechen culture. The part that makes it's money through organized crime and spends it's money on attacking Russia.

Can you show me some sources that support your claim that Chechen terrorists are representatives of a big chunk of Chechen culture?

I've got a short fuse when it comes to women and children being targeted and killed. I can understand that it happens by accident in a war, but to intentionally go out and kill women and children makes me think there's something seriously wrong with the culture the killers come from and that culture needs to be reformed by force if necessary.

It could, of course, be argued that the "something wrong with the culture" is the heavy-handed and totalitarian occupation by an invading sovereign force?

Children raised on violence, and all that...

...

Seriously, my thoughts are with the survivors and the families of the dead and with all the Russian people.
Thank you, DCD. The Beslan horror was somewhat akin to your 11 September attacks for Russia. A great tragedy...

The authorities have admitted that the rescue effort was poorly executed. Could it have been planned better? Maybe... who knows. The commander of Alfa died in battle, after all...

I'd like to note that the Chechen war is now more of a Kadyrov vs Basaev kind, the 'Chechenization' of that conflict has succeeded on the whole.

"You also forgot to mention the daring Russian rescue attempt which caught the captives in a cross fire. And Russia did such a good job on investigating what went wrong that the families want to be able to leave the country."

You can't blame Russia for a failed resuce attempt when America allowed (not intentionally of course) terrorists to hijack defenseless planes and fly them into major econopmic buoldings, and when Britain allowed (unintentionally of course) terrorists to set off bombs in their capital city even after september 11th.

You can't blame Russia for a failed resuce attempt when America allowed (not intentionally of course) terrorists to hijack defenseless planes and fly them into major econopmic buoldings, and when Britain allowed (unintentionally of course) terrorists to set off bombs in their capital city even after september 11th.

You actually missed what I was doing there. I was refering to how the deaths of those involved were not soley attributed to the Chechens and that Drunk Commie's description of the event in his first post was not accurate. And also of course I can blame Russia for a failed rescue attempt. This is nothing like those two examples you stated. In this situation the Russians had a chance to negociate instead of just having rogue groups attack without warning. This was a stand off situation where negotiations would have worked instead of at one point blowing holes in walls to try to help hostiges get out. Russia could have done a much better job rescuing the kids instead of sending in a TANK a freaking TANK in a rescue operation. Would there be losses of life either way maybe but Russia could have done a hell of a better job in my mind.

One year ago today brave Chechen freedom fighters slaughtered over three hundred defenseless schoolchildren and teachers. How can you not sympathize with their cause? [/sarcasm]

Seriously, my thoughts are with the survivors and the families of the dead and with all the Russian people.
I can't believe it's already been a year. Wow. That was so, unbelievably horrible.

You actually missed what I was doing there. I was refering to how the deaths of those involved were not soley attributed to the Chechens and that Drunk Commie's description of the event in his first post was not accurate. And also of course I can blame Russia for a failed rescue attempt. This is nothing like those two examples you stated. In this situation the Russians had a chance to negociate instead of just having rogue groups attack without warning. This was a stand off situation where negotiations would have worked instead of at one point blowing holes in walls to try to help hostiges get out. Russia could have done a much better job rescuing the kids instead of sending in a TANK a freaking TANK in a rescue operation. Would there be losses of life either way maybe but Russia could have done a hell of a better job in my mind.

It does have to be conceded.... blowing holes in the walls of a building laced with explosives.... not the BEST available option...

Why are you blaming the Russians when the Chechen terrorist scumbags are the ones who took the school hostage, wired the gymnasium full of children to explode, and raped schoolgirls and female teachers to pass the time?
The Russians have a no-negotation style of dealing with this sort of thing, and it's not the first time they've been accused (rightly) of escalating an already terrible situation and increasing the death toll.

It does have to be conceded.... blowing holes in the walls of a building laced with explosives.... not the BEST available option...

lol yea the guns ablazing style really only works in Western Movies.

I'd wondered why I'd heard stories of rape early on and then they seemed to disappear from the account. Still, that incident makes me want to cheer the Russians on when they take military action in Chechnia. The Chechens lost any chance at sympathy from me with this attack and the Moscow theater attack several years ago.
The Chechens are not a homogenous group that all backed these particular people. The tactics that have been used against them have been as horrific, if not worse than this very publicised incident. That doesn't make what this group did right...but it shouldn't clear the Russian government of all blame in the Chechen situation either.

lol yea the guns ablazing style really only works in Western Movies.

There's the problem, then.... what is "John Wayne" in Russian?

There's the problem, then.... what is "John Wayne" in Russian?

I guess there are two many real life Revolver Ocelots over there. :rolleyes:

Some historical considerations:

From the 15th century onward, the history of the Chechens and Chechnya has seen singular definition by the imposition of foreign rule and corresponding cultural repression.

While, from the 7th through the 16th centuries, Chechens were predominantly Christian, the expansion of Ottoman influence brought about their eventual conversion to Islam. In 1559, Ivan the Terrible founded Tarki, within which, 28 years later, the first Cossack army was stationed. Outright occupation by Imperial Russia, however, was forestalled by the khanate of Crimea until its conquest. With its 1783 annexation by Russia, Chechnya saw large-scale colonization, fiercely resisted by local mountain tribes. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chechnya and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya), "The current resistance to Russian overlordship" can be traced back to "the late 18th century (1785-1791) under Mansur Ushurma -- a Chechen Naqshbandi (Sufi) Sheikh -- with the support of many Muslim ethnicities throughout the Northern Caucasus. Mansur hoped to establish a Transcaucasus Islamic state under shari'a law, but was ultimately unable to do so because of both Russian resistance and opposition from many Chechens (who had only recently been converted to Islam)." Mansur, captured by Russian forces in 1791, died in captivity some years after.

Wikipedia continues:

Imperial Russian forces began moving into Chechnya in 1830 to secure Russia's borders with the Ottoman Empire. The Chechens, along with many peoples of the Eastern Caucasus, resisted fiercely, led by the Dagestani hero Imam Shamil, but Chechnya was finally incorporated into the Russian Empire in 1859 after Shamil's capture.

Russian occupation caused a prolonged wave of emigration until the end of the 19th century. Thousands of Caucasians moved to Turkey and other countries of the Middle East, while Cossacks and Armenians settled in Chechnya.

Nonetheless:

The Chechens continued to rise up whenever the Russians faced a period of internal uncertainty. Rebellions occurred during the Russo-Turkish War [1877-1878], the Russian Revolution of 1905, the Russian Revolution of 1917, Russian Civil War, and Collectivization. Under Soviet Rule, Chechnya was combined with Ingushetia to form the autonomous republic of Chechen-Ingushetia in the late 1930s.

The Chechnya-Ingushetia region received status of an autonomous republic within the Soviet Union in 1936. During World War II, despite the fact that about 40 thousand Chechens and Ingushes fought in the Red Army (fifty of them received the highest recognition of the Hero of the Soviet Union), the Soviet government accused them of cooperating with the Nazi invaders, who had controlled the western parts of Chechnya-Ingushetia for several months of the 1942/1943 winter. On orders from Stalin the entire population of the republic was exiled to Kazakhstan. Over a quarter died. The Chechens were allowed to return only in 1957, four years after Stalin's death in 1953. In 1949 Soviet authorities erected a statue of 19th century Russian general Aleksey Yermolov in Grozny. The inscription read, "There is no people under the sun more vile and deceitful than this one." Yermolov had also persecuted the Chechens.

The russification policies towards Chechens continued after 1956, with Russian required in most aspects of life and for advancement in the Soviet system. Despite this some ethnic Chechens managed to achieve some top positions in the USSR (most notable Ruslan Khasbulatov (speaker of Soviet Supreme Soviet), Dzhokhar Dudaev (Soviet general), Doku Zavgaev (chairman of Chechen-Ingush ASSR), and Aslambek Aslakhanov (Soviet/Russian lawmaker). The Chechens remained peaceful and relatively loyal to the state until the introduction of Glasnost under Mikhail Gorbachev in the late 1980s.

With the impending collapse of the Soviet Union, an independence movement, initially known as the Chechen National Congress, formed in 1990. This movement was ultimately opposed by Boris Yeltsin's Russian Federation, which argued: (1) Chechnya had not been an independent entity within the Soviet Union – as the Baltic, Central Asian, and other Caucasian States had – but was a part of the Russian Soviet Federal Socialist Republic and hence did not have a right under the Soviet constitution to secede; (2) Other ethnic groups inside Russia, such as the Tatars, would join the Chechens and secede from the Russian Federation if they were granted that right; and (3) Chechnya was at a major chokepoint in the oil-infrastructure of the country and hence would hurt the country's economy and control of oil resources.

Dzhokhar Dudayev, the Republic of Chechnya's nationalist president, declared Chechnya's independence from Russia in 1991. He, however, failed to maintain control over the entire republic and saw his rule descend into chaos. This anarchy appeared to have the approval of certain factions in Moscow, and was allowed to continue. In 1994, though, Russian President Boris Yeltsin ordered 40,000 troops retake Chechnya (see First Chechen War), after having been told by close advisors that it would be a popular, short, and victorious war. Yeltsin hoped to use the victory to overtake political opponents and win in the 1996 presidential elections, which was extremely uncertain as opponents within the former Communist Party and nationalists under Vladimir Zhirinovsky had gained a large amount of popular support while Yeltsin's approval ratings hovered in the single digits.

Russia was quickly submerged in a quagmire like that of the Soviets in Afghanistan. Chechen insurgents inflicted humiliating losses on Russia's often demoralized and ill-equipped troops. Russian troops had not secured the Chechen capital of Grozny by year's end. They finally managed to gain control of it in February 1995 after heavy fighting. This was overturned again, when Chechen forces led by Shamil Basayev attacked the city in 1996. In addition to difficulties in the battlefield, heavy public opposition developed inside Russia itself, with critical media coverage pointing to the lack of training for Russian soldiers, their poor equipment, and the devastation within Chechnya itself. In August 1996 Yeltsin ultimately agreed to a ceasefire with Chechen leaders, and the Khasavyurt agreement declared that Chechnya's ultimate fate would be decided by the end of 2001. It was determined that between 80,000 and 100,000 (Russians and Chechens) died as a result of the invasion.

The Chechens elected Aslan Maskhadov as their president in 1997, but, due to the power of clans, militias, and criminal organizations within the republic, he was unable to assert complete control. [...] As Yeltsin’s second term approached its end, the topic of Chechnya began to reappear. Under Prime Minister Sergei Stepashin, in power from May until August 1999, plans were prepared to re-establish control over Chechnya. On August 7th, invasion of Chechen forces – including a number of Arab and Dagestani extremists which were not affiliated with the Chechen government of Maskhadov – moved into Dagestan under the command of Basayev, Khattab and other Islamists. Stepashin was soon dismissed and replaced by Vladimir Putin, who was allegedly maneuvered into the position by the Oligarch Boris Berezovsky, on August 9th. Putin promptly ordered Russian forces to Dagestan on August 12th.

This incursion by Chechen forces resulted in Russian troops being placed along the border of the republic; and Chechen terrorist attacks of September 1999 finally sparked the Russian army return into Chechnya. Bombs determined to be hexogen based were set off at apartment blocks at Buinaksk in Dagestan, Moscow, and Volgodonsk in Southern Russia. The Russian government immediately blamed Chechen terrorists, but failed to provide any substantial evidence to support its claims. It has since been alleged by some that FSB agents, rather than Chechen separatists, were behind the attacks. However, the invasion of Dagestan combined with shocking terrorist acts was enough to justify the military action to the Russian public. With the military extremely popular and associated with Putin, he and his parliamentary party "Unity" emerged victorious in the December 1999 Duma elections. This was a stunning turnaround, for only a number of months earlier a partnership between Moscow’s Mayor Yuri Luzhkov and former Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov in their party Fatherland – All Russia had been favored to win.

Many Chechen separatist groups have become increasingly radicalized and fractured, with Shamil Basayev adopting a strongly Islamist position and inviting support from Arab Islamist organizations, such as Al-Qaeda. This was opposed by the now deceased moderate, Aslan Maskhadov, who was killed by Russian forces in March of 2005 and still publicly desired a negotiated settlement to the conflict up until his death. While the two may have stood together against what they saw as a Russian occupation, they ultimately differed greatly in both vision and ideology.

(Red text mine.)

The Chechens are not a homogenous group that all backed these particular people. The tactics that have been used against them have been as horrific, if not worse than this very publicised incident. That doesn't make what this group did right...but it shouldn't clear the Russian government of all blame in the Chechen situation either.

Indeed - look to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4199146.stm ("Injustices fuel Chechnya's fires"), http://hrw.org/wr2k4/7.htm ("'Glad to be Deceived': the International Community and Chechnya"), and http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/russia/chechnya (Human Rights Watch).