NationStates Jolt Archive

I ask you this as it came up in a discussion with one of my Christian friends.


With an infallible all-knowing god above us, do we humans have free will?

Think about it. God knows that Bob will cheat on the math test. Bob has no say in this. Why? If he did have free will, God could be wrong. Essentially every bad person has been led that way by God's plan.

The only answer I got was that God can't influence people only Satan can. Not only was the guy shot down by his friends but also by me. His explanation not only still robbed people of free will but made God fallible and limited his knowledge.

Discuss. And don't turn this into a religious flame thread. No "Jebus are the sUxx0r", okay?

God can't influence man, only Satan can? I dunno... that guy in the Garden had a pretty powerful influence over the course of man's destiny.

The only way omniscience + free will makes sense is if omniscience is not "knowing the outcome" as it is commonly defined, but rather "knowing all possible outcomes," those being infinite in variety. And not just all possible outcomes of one event, but all possible outcomes of every moment in time.

Calvinism accepts this as fine. But Calvinism is a harsh, harsh doctrine.

Otherwise, yes, it is one of the eternal problems. One of the more modern answers is that God exists outside our timeline; in a sense, to him, Bob had free will to choose whether or not to cheat, but God, being effectively in the future, witnessed him cheat. It is just the same as this:

Bob cheated on his test yesterday.
Alice witnessed this.
It is now the day after, and Alice knows what decision Bob made - but this does not mean Bob was not free to choose.

Right, I attempted to say that one but it seems like that would make God fallible. I can't fill in A,B,C, and D on a test and hope for the best. It would be counted wrong.

Besides, that's redefining omniscience.

There's a difference in the Bob and Alice thing. Alice knew afterwards or during. God knew before and thereby, Bob was doomed to cheat.

Not really. He still knows everything, but because He witnessed it happening. Essentially, yes, you are right, it is utterly logically impossible to say that:

God knows everything we will do.
We are free to act.

But only if God exists in the present. If He exists in every time simultaneously there's no problem.

There's a difference in the Bob and Alice thing. Alice knew afterwards or during. God knew before and thereby, Bob was doomed to cheat.

Ah, but to God, time is nonexistent, because He exists in all times. Therefore to speak of God knowing "before" is a category mistake; it's like saying you can't see what's on the left side of the screen if you've already looked at the right.

This is an odd idea, the time phase of God. I would view him as being in the present because without time there is no action and thereby no God. That's simply how I view time.

All times at once is different than no time but still has God denying free will to Bob. Why? God has an aspect *before* Bob cheated that knew Bob would cheat.

I look at it this way... None of us can get in god's head, therefore only God knows what is going to happen. So what do you even care?

At any rate, I think that God exists on a plane of time where he is everywhere, everytime at once, so he's seeing it as it happens, but he knows what's happening. God is truly an incomprehensible being. I think humans really shouldn't try to understand.

God doesn't force the decision. He just knows what the outcome is. The issue is to get your head round God not being bound linearly in time like we are.

God can see yesterday, today and tomorrow all at the same time. Therefore He knows now what decision you'll make tomorrow etc. If you made a different decision tomorrow, He'd know that instead.

God doesn't force the decision. He just knows what the outcome is. The issue is to get your head round God not being bound linearly in time like we are.

God can see yesterday, today and tomorrow all at the same time. Therefore He knows now what decision you'll make tomorrow etc. If you made a different decision tomorrow, He'd know that instead.

He'd know that instead. meaning God is fallble.

Knowing the outcome denies people their free will. Why? If someone's entire fate is planned out, they have no choice.

Either god is infallible and all knowing and we have no free will or he is fallible and we have free will.

The way I see it, I either have free will, or I'm predestined to believe that I do, so it doesn't make much difference.

I'm predestined to believe that I do

Implying a deceitful God if you are lacking in said free will.

:rolleyes:

Not really. He still knows everything, but because He witnessed it happening. Essentially, yes, you are right, it is utterly logically impossible to say that:

God knows everything we will do.
We are free to act.

But only if God exists in the present. If He exists in every time simultaneously there's no problem.

Wait though, that means he doesn't have complete freedom of action though.

For example, Alice witnessed Bob cheating, but becuase she did not know of it before Bob did it, she couldn't prevent him. Had she known about it she could have stopped him. God on the other hand has witnessed everything, so he is capable of preventing it before it ever happens, no? The only way he is not, is if he doesn't have complete freedom of action, which would make him less than omnipotent.

Not really. He still knows everything, but because He witnessed it happening. Essentially, yes, you are right, it is utterly logically impossible to say that:

God knows everything we will do.
We are free to act.

But only if God exists in the present. If He exists in every time simultaneously there's no problem.

Wait though, that means he doesn't have complete freedom of action though.

For example, Alice witnessed Bob cheating, but becuase she did not know of it before Bob did it, she couldn't prevent him. Had she known about it she could have stopped him. God on the other hand has witnessed everything already, so he is capable of preventing it before it ever happens because he knows bob will do it before even bob himself does, no? The only way he is not, is if he doesn't have complete freedom of action, which would make him less than omnipotent.

Not really. He still knows everything, but because He witnessed it happening. Essentially, yes, you are right, it is utterly logically impossible to say that:

God knows everything we will do.
We are free to act.

But only if God exists in the present. If He exists in every time simultaneously there's no problem.

Wait though, that means he doesn't have complete freedom of action though.

For example, Alice witnessed Bob cheating, but becuase she did not know of it before Bob did it, she couldn't prevent him. Had she known about it she could have stopped him. God on the other hand has witnessed everything already, so he is capable of preventing it before it ever happens because he knows bob will do it before even bob himself does, no? The only way he is not, is if he doesn't have complete freedom of action, which would make him less than omnipotent.

For example, Alice witnessed Bob cheating, but becuase she did not know of it before Bob did it, she couldn't prevent him. Had she known about it she could have stopped him. God on the other hand has witnessed everything already, so he is capable of preventing it before it ever happens because he knows bob will do it before even bob himself does, no? The only way he is not, is if he doesn't have complete freedom of action, which would make him less than omnipotent.

There is one other option. That there is a less than wholesome god. A god who decides everyone's lives and still makes them result in failure, not due to the person but due to the God's plans.

There is one other option. That there is a less than wholesome god. A god who decides everyone's lives and still makes them result in failure, not due to the person but due to the God's plans.

Yah, but that would only imply that God was a bastard.

I suppose God has some nanby pamby view about not messing with free-will while Satan doesn't feel quite the same restraint. Nothing wrong with messing with free will, the Government does it. Nothing wrong with Satanism come to think of it.

Free will exists for us because we travel only one direction in time.

If God exists outside of the constraints of time, she can know what choices Bob will make, but Bob does not know until he makes them. Free will for Bob, but outside of linear time, it appears as predestination. Perhaps this is why time travel is impossible... it is precluded by the paradox of free will.

The question presupposes that God CARES what Bob does. The simplest answer is that she does not care one way or the other. Bob's choices are for his own benefit, and he either learns from them or not, and it makes no difference.

If we insist on a compassionate God, then she MUST allow us our illusion of free will, so that we CAN learn from our choices. If God is compassionate, then it follows that free will does exist because Bob does, in fact, make the choice to cheat, and the choice not to cheat; that there are infinite tracks of time and God knows about all of them. Bob (at least the Bob we are looking at in front of us) only travels down one track while alternate Bobs do different things and learn different lessons.

As I see the problem, there are a few possibilities:

1. God knows what's going to happen in the future, but doesn't care and/or doesn't interfere.

2. God knows all, but the future hasn't happened yet, so the future isn't part of 'all.' Think about it: you could build a gigantic computer and feed into every piece of knowledge that exists, assuming such a thing could be done and assuming you could obtain all knowledge, but the computer still wouldn't be able to predict the future because it doesn't belong to our body of knowledge. (This doctrine probably contradicts Christian theology, but it's logically possible.)

3. God knows what's going to happen in the future, but he simply doesn't arrive to the same conclusions about it as we do, therefore he doesn't interfere when we think he should interfere, but he might interfere at times we wouldn't expect him to and presumably he'd use natural laws to avoid detection. (I presume this because I can't find any obvious evidence of god's interference.)

Notice that none of these options compromises free will. Just because god might know what's going to happen doesn't mean we didn't choose it freely. Knowing what's going to happen and DECIDING what's going to happen aren't the same thing. Sure, god created the universe and he may or may not have known the consequences of his actions, but that still doesn't mean every actor in the universe he created didn't choose freely, it just means god could see what that person was going to choose.

Wait though, that means he doesn't have complete freedom of action though.

For example, Alice witnessed Bob cheating, but becuase she did not know of it before Bob did it, she couldn't prevent him. Had she known about it she could have stopped him. God on the other hand has witnessed everything already, so he is capable of preventing it before it ever happens because he knows bob will do it before even bob himself does, no? The only way he is not, is if he doesn't have complete freedom of action, which would make him less than omnipotent.
alice witnessed bob cheating, but because she decided it was none of her business she didnt say anything to him or turn him in to the authorities. or maybe she felt sorry for bob since turning him in would mean his expulsion from harvard.

in any case she had lots of options, she chose one. same with god. he has more alternatives than we can think up, he chooses one and it seems inevitable to us.

in any case she had lots of options, she chose one. same with god. he has more alternatives than we can think up, he chooses one and it seems inevitable to us.

If God chooses which action we take, then we have no free will and every person's failures are due to god.

God can't influence man, only Satan can? I dunno... that guy in the Garden had a pretty powerful influence over the course of man's destiny.

The only way omniscience + free will makes sense is if omniscience is not "knowing the outcome" as it is commonly defined, but rather "knowing all possible outcomes," those being infinite in variety. And not just all possible outcomes of one event, but all possible outcomes of every moment in time.

To quote Terry Pratchett, "you misunderstand the meaning of 'everything.'"

If God is eternal, rather than everlasting, he exists outside of normal time. By our perspective God knows what the outcome will be if Bob cheats on the math test, and what it will be if he doesn't, and may even know if Bob will.

From God's perspective, Bob will diverge on one path where he cheats and another where he doesn't. Another where he gets caught and another where he doesn't. Another where he passes despite not cheating, and another where he doesn't. God does not follow Bob along all these possibilities, God was there when it was just a possibility and at the same time (from his perspective) was there after Bob made the decision to cheat and the decision to cheat.

In such a system free will amounts do how many of those "Bob cheats" universes there are relative to the number of "Bob plays it straight."

To quote Terry Pratchett, "you misunderstand the meaning of 'everything.'"

If God is eternal, rather than everlasting, he exists outside of normal time. By our perspective God knows what the outcome will be if Bob cheats on the math test, and what it will be if he doesn't, and may even know if Bob will.

From God's perspective, Bob will diverge on one path where he cheats and another where he doesn't. Another where he gets caught and another where he doesn't. Another where he passes despite not cheating, and another where he doesn't. God does not follow Bob along all these possibilities, God was there when it was just a possibility and at the same time (from his perspective) was there after Bob made the decision to cheat and the decision to cheat.
Glad we agree.

In such a system free will amounts do how many of those "Bob cheats" universes there are relative to the number of "Bob plays it straight."
This I don't follow.

Free will is the ability for Bob to determine his own outcome. No matter how many "cheats" universes there are relative to "straight" ones, Bob still has a choice to make.

That still implies an evil god, though, as someone is doomed to be a Cheating Bob. Either he is fallible or we don't have free will. Creating new universes doesn't solve the problem.

Simple. Stop calling God omniscient. He can still be omnipotent and even omnipresent. It's a compromise that saves the entire religious community an eternity of headache.

Right, and you just created a new, fallible God likely to cause disasters at every interference which means we either get an apathetic god or a clumsy one. Why? To be omnipotent without being omniscient can cause so many complications. How are you to apply the power of all when you know next to nothing?

Right, and you just created a new, fallible God likely to cause disasters at every interference which means we either get an apathetic god or a clumsy one. Why? To be omnipotent without being omniscient can cause so many complications. How are you to apply the power of all when you know next to nothing?

First off, fallible gods are much more interesting. Also, not knowing everything about the future doesn't make anyone stupid or anything complicated. As long as he's on top of the present, he can deal with whatever future happens. In all honesty, I'd say that if there is a God, he's likely of the apathetic persuasion and is off playing with some other planet now.

An apathetic god certainly implies malicious intent if he sees how the world is working out.

Polytheism does get rid of the problem of determining free will as no one God controls everything. Separation of powers.....

First off, fallible gods are much more interesting. Also, not knowing everything about the future doesn't make anyone stupid or anything complicated. As long as he's on top of the present, he can deal with whatever future happens. In all honesty, I'd say that if there is a God, he's likely of the apathetic persuasion and is off playing with some other planet now.

Since God is created in man's image, one would assume fallibilty is part of the package, no?

I ask you this as it came up in a discussion with one of my Christian friends.


With an infallible all-knowing god above us, do we humans have free will?

If you follow the theology of Calvin (Baptists do) then no you do not have free will.

If you follow the theology of John Wesley (Methodists do) then you have free will.

So the answer depends on what theology you follow.

If you follow the theology of Calvin (Baptists do) then no you do not have free will.

If you follow the theology of John Wesley (Methodists do) then you have free will.

So the answer depends on what theology you follow.

Then how do the Methodists explain free will?

If God chooses which action we take, then we have no free will and every person's failures are due to god.
god chooses what action HE will take. in the vast majority of cases he chooses to "let nature take its course"

now and then he performs a "miracle" and makes a choice that violates the laws of nature. we tend to notice those choices more than his usual choice because they are so very rare.

the god who would make us puppets with no free will then damn us to hell for all eternity for making "choices" that we were not free to not make is too creepy to consider. it makes a mockery of everthing we do in our lives, every good choice and every bad choice is decided by him not us. where is the morality in that?

Then how do the Methodists explain free will?

If you accept Christ as your Savior, it is still possible for you to make a choice to sin. If you do sin, you can still repent and you will go to heaven. You make the choice, not God.

Calvinists believe that once you accept Christ as your Savior you cannot and will not sin. If you do sin it is proof you were never saved in the first place.

Anyone ever hear of Higgs, and W and Z particles (AKA nicknamed "God" Particles)?

Basically, in order to prove the big bang, particle physicists have realized that the only way our universe could've been created was if some force made the original "God" Particles collide so an immense amount of matter and antimatter could be formed. "God" Particles are pure energy with no matter what so ever (gravity couldn't have made them collide). Also, the alternate Big Bang/ Big Crush theory is being disproved more and more daily since gravity is being viewed as not such an effective force as it once was for the deceleration of objects in the universe.

Basically, particle physicists are considering the possibility of free will being that which created the universe because with "God" Particles and free will, the math NO LONGER collapses every time they try to determine the location of the center of the universe and time zero (AKA time's beginning to which nothing ever happened before and everything was just like a chaotic painting without causality, a concept further disputed that if disproven would allow time travel).

Yes I've held faith in God since I can remember and have not disputed his existence, but this is for those who claim to want secular evidence in light of atheist arguments against free will. :)