NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm just curious what Atheists think about this universe, going back before evolution and abiogenesis, to before the Big Bang. What do you think existed then? And before that? How could anything possibly exist? I honestly can't comprehend a universe without God. Please tell me what you think.

Who cares what existed then, we can't know.

And the idea that the human mind could comprehend the ramifications of the existance of a God-being is just silly.

I'm just curious what Atheists think about this universe, going back before evolution and abiogenesis, to before the Big Bang. What do you think existed then? And before that? How could anything possibly exist? I honestly can't comprehend a universe without God. Please tell me what you think.

Exactly...there was nothing we can yet comprehend. What is there to think about?

And given the size of the universe vs. matter that exists, there really isn't that much now.

Everything existed except your puny god, it took a bunch of humans to make him.

The universe didn't exist before the big bang. We can never know what might exist outside of our universe with any degree of certainty.

Anyway, so what? Since when does I don't know = God did it?

Teacher: "Little Tommy, what's the capital of North Dakota?"

Little Tommy: "God"

Teacher: "Tommy, please report to the special ed. room immediately."

I'm just curious what Atheists think about this universe, going back before evolution and abiogenesis, to before the Big Bang. What do you think existed then? And before that? How could anything possibly exist? I honestly can't comprehend a universe without God. Please tell me what you think.

Are you talking about purpose or just a need to have a solid belief in how we came to the point we are?

Either way I think it's irreelevant. We make our own purpose or we believe somebody elses iea of what our purpose is. I would rather make my own purpose and live by what I feel in my heart, otherwise I don't see a point in living at all.

I'd be interested to know the facts as to how we arrived where we are if they could be conclusively proven, still it wouldn't make a difference to me how I felt about my life, others lives or the state of anything anywhere.



not an atheist btw

I'm just curious what Atheists think about this universe, going back before evolution and abiogenesis, to before the Big Bang. What do you think existed then? And before that? How could anything possibly exist? I honestly can't comprehend a universe without God. Please tell me what you think.

Really? Well, i'm no atheist, but i can imagine a universe without God (or Jesus....just puttin' it out there). All you have 2 do is embrace science's description of the goings on in our very large (and may i say, viewtaful) universe. Science's descriptions are actually quite elegant. Just use your imagination!

Okay people, I've got your point...

nothing existed. god didnt exist either...

*shrug* God or no God, we are logically incapable of knowing, so why theorise? Neither's necessary.

I find atheism no more correct than theism. Many atheists here denounce Christianity as nothing more than a bunch of crap, yet offer no real reason why it's incorrect and no explanation for questions people asked. It's like:
Christian: There's no other explanations for why crap happened and no evidence proving god doesn't exist. Therefore, I believe in Christianity.
radical NS atheist: There's also no evidence that god does exist, other than things science can't explain, so god is an impossibility.
good atheist: Shut up. He can believe anything he wants, no matter how crazy it sounds.
radical NS atheist: You must be one of them. Go take your god and nshove it, retard.
good atheist: You know what. you never did anything constructive here. Unless you plan on actually debating this instead of just spewing out insults, take your ignorance and leave so me and Mr. Christian here can debate things peacefully.
radical NS Christian: Go to hell, all of you. You all don't share my beliefs, so die, you infidels.
Christian and good atheist: You know what. Radical NS atheist gave us enough problems. Go away if you don't plan on giving constructive criticism while debating meaningful topics involving religion, politics, science, etc.

Yep. NS is just as bad as any other site that allows just about anyone to come and post things. The first amendment is a powerful double-edged sword, isn't it?

okay, heres my story of what I think god may be. You see, when people look at god, they try and identify some kind of mystical higher power, all seeing, all knowing, all hearing, and most of the time they think that hes some benevolent creator. But, my lil theory, is that;
If you could do anything, in a second, and while doing it, do everything. Ie had the power of god, would existance become plain? So if you had all that power, you might be inclined to give yourself limits, to make things more interesting, then explore reality, through those limits, until there was nothing left to be learned. But what if you then gave yourself different limits, different understanding, then you did it again, and again, untill you had a thriving population of yourself, expierancing yourelf, perspectivly?

Then of course theres my other theory, which, is basically cristian, except, too be honest, I decided that the imbelishment the bible takes on the truth, can be done in other ways, see, the universe may have been created, over a period of time. But, they blame some benevolent force, personally, I think that benevolent force is just the connection of energy. But, my unprovable (and thus undisputable ;) all you cristians out there) Is that a giant pink flamingo created the universe. Now I'm sorry if that offends you more sensitive people, but hey, respect my beliefs, and I'll respect yours. But respecting my beliefs isn't "oh thats interesting" then talking down to me as though I'm some kind of moron because I don't believe what you believe".

Respecting my beliefs is saying "okay you've got a valid point" then (and heres the key phrase ) THINKING ABOUT IT, beliefs are good, religion is bad, because religion cannot be changed. Did you know in the 16th century the church actaully said people shouldn't believe the bible, because they thought if priests controlled faith they could have more control over the country? Huh , the more you know ha, and before you go off thinking I'm some wacko who knows nothing, I used to live in south africa, and went to a private methodist school, with corporal punishment. They could hit you, if they could justify it, and the bible can be used to justify pretty much anything as a sin, I was forced to read the entire bible, from front to back, in several editions, more times then I care to remember. So before you assume I have no knowledge of what cristianity is please, remember, that not only do I know cristianity isn't the "steriotypcial image" that everyone has, REMEMBER that I'm also familiar with the doctrines of muslims and buddhists, and remember, if you don't like anything I'm saying, don't flame me, or shout arguments, come up with clear concise points,and if I feel I'm able, I will challenge them, however, If I'm truly wrong, I'll admit it.
Peace everyone

None of us atheists claim to know any of what you asked. Most of us dont care. Besides, I just find the claim that god existed forever even less believable than nothing becoming something.

I'm just curious what Atheists think about this universe, going back before evolution and abiogenesis, to before the Big Bang. What do you think existed then? And before that? How could anything possibly exist? I honestly can't comprehend a universe without God. Please tell me what you think.

I'm not going to be rude to you like some other people have, but what's in bold above that's exactly the reason why I don't have any belief in any god. When human beings can't understand something their imagination goes to work and creates purely fictional ideas to compensate for their lack of knoweledge. A human put in a position where infinites exist spawns insecure and insignificant felings towards onself, thus one begins to generate reasons to feel adequate. People have to get out of this human frame of mind, not everything that exists can be rationalized by human logic, as it is most certainly not enough when put against all things in existence.

Just like there is no one answer for everything, there is no one way to process everything, and the human method of proccessing information such as ultimate existence can't possibly be used with such versatility. Our minds have evolved to the point where they are useful only for Earthly things, that's why you have a problem visualizing the universe without a god. We have a hard time relating to things that don't correspond with what's in our daily lives, such as gravity, space-time, and things of human invention (monitary value, linear time, etc). That my friend is why I can't believe in a god because to do so would be human, and human beings are in no way qualified to answer the questions of the universe because of the fact that we try to relate everything to the human experience.

(not athesist, open minded)

If we proved the existence of early man, and have made theories on the big bang, whats to say we won't prove the big bang and theorize on pre big bang, only to prove that? Time will tell.

(not athesist, open minded)

If we proved the existence of early man, and have made theories on the big bang, whats to say we won't prove the big bang and theorize on pre big bang, only to prove that? Time will tell.

(Assuming the Big Bang was the beginning of the Universe) it's impossible to know what happened "before" the beginning of time, because to know things we must receive information about them, and there was no information "before" the beginning of time.

alright my spellings a little off, but its mainly cause i'm so god damn stoned right now.
and don't start a flame war about that either.

(Assuming the Big Bang was the beginning of the Universe) it's impossible to know what happened "before" the beginning of time, because to know things we must receive information about them, and there was no information "before" the beginning of time.

You are also assuming there was a beginning of time, and that there is no information before the beginning of time. Unlikely, but you never know. Maybe someone will time travel back to that time in the future...

oooo good question for cristians who use the "what happened before the big bang, something must have created it" Well, what was before god, what created god?

An for all you atheists, I mean, come on, you've got to believe in something, deep down, I bet every time you say there isn't a god, your worried about the possibility that there is? Maybe that lil bit of concern is god?

Another good point for cristians, the bible, is the word of god yes?
Handed down to the disiciples to scribe and make their own interpretations right? Well, the disiciples, as I understand it were human, and living their first run at existance, and I'm human, and I'm living my first run, so what makes them any better equiped to preach what exists outside our narrow senses, then me?

An for all you atheists, I mean, come on, you've got to believe in something, deep down, I bet every time you say there isn't a god, your worried about the possibility that there is? Maybe that lil bit of concern is god?


More like a huge worry. I wish there was a god, or at least one that I could believe in. But it goes against every fiber of my mind.

Your arguments on the begining of time, are bizarre, but fill me in on a few things before I enter this one.
1. Are you assuming that time, a human concept/measurement, governs the univerese?
2. Are you assuming that nothing being there would mean nothing existed?
3. Are you assuming that nothing is some kind of dark void, lonely and lost(because if your assuming that your not considering nothing your considering the concept of darkness and lonelyness,nothing just is simply nothing and beyond imagination because when your imagining, your still imagining nothing, your not identifying with nothing)
4. Assuming that you do mean, Nothing, then, wouldn't we still be in an existance of nothing, because where there is nothing, there is nothing. Because nothing, is'nt nothing with god, its just nothing. When you make your theorys you must remember not to mcdonalds staff it, "Burger me"
"heres your burger and fries" no I said just a burger, not a burger with fries, if you guys can get me, that last ones a bit weak.

but chellis, it is still there right? undeniable. (don't worry, I don't even know what I believe anymore, I've gone through life at one point believing something, at another believing something else, so much so that I can argue for and against nearly everything) Final point before I stop posting so much (sorry everyone)
A cristian priest, in his heart mind and soul, has seen the light of god, knows deep in his heart that hes right. Okay, fair enough, can't argue with that, its his point of view, he has that faith in his heart.
But so does a muslim holy man, how can this heart felt faith be wrong, if their certain it is right, even tho, their beliefs contradict each other?
maybe the world isn't about a right or wrong faith, maybe its just about believing, something, anything, even in nothing, if you believe in nothing, your still believing in something, its all just a different point of view.

but chellis, it is still there right? undeniable. (don't worry, I don't even know what I believe anymore, I've gone through life at one point believing something, at another believing something else, so much so that I can argue for and against nearly everything) Final point before I stop posting so much (sorry everyone)
A cristian priest, in his heart mind and soul, has seen the light of god, knows deep in his heart that hes right. Okay, fair enough, can't argue with that, its his point of view, he has that faith in his heart.
But so does a muslim holy man, how can this heart felt faith be wrong, if their certain it is right, even tho, their beliefs contradict each other?
maybe the world isn't about a right or wrong faith, maybe its just about believing, something, anything, even in nothing, if you believe in nothing, your still believing in something, its all just a different point of view.

I've long held the belief that there are as many realities as there are points of view.

There's more than one way to look at that statment as well.

Thank you. Thats what I think. I think reality, or at least mine, yours, is just a point of view, all the realationships we have with everyone, how we expierance situations, its all just a point of view.

Thank you. Thats what I think. I think reality, or at least mine, yours, is just a point of view, all the realationships we have with everyone, how we expierance situations, its all just a point of view.


and we look for things that support the reality we want to believe in, therefore reinforcing our belief that ours is the correct one and reject or overlook things that don't.

Its a shame no-ones fast on response, I was looking forward to a fast speedy point based debate (unlike cnn, anyone see rod stewarts infamous cnn appearance ) so , while I wait for replies, I'm gonna go have a fag.
Peace

--=Bump=--

LOL @ bumping an active thread.

+1 for you

If there is no God or afterlife, then you really shouldn't be much concerned. If you don't "go" anywhere following your death, it isn't as though you would be aware that you were dead. I would imagine it as a dreamless sleep, since within five minutes of a stopped heart, your brain would be damaged beyond being able to produce subconscious imagery.

Do I know right now? No. Will I (or my descendants) ever know? Yes, assuming I pass my seed along.

Just because it cannot be explained right now does not mean that God did it. That type of thinking spawned religion.

*flash of lightning*
UGG: What was that?
OOG: Charged particles transferring from cloud to cloud and producing a bright display of energy?
UGG: No. Great Man on Buffalo, stomping on clouds.
OOG: Oh, now I get it!

Marxist, I love it man. that can be applied so well to any religion its not even funny.

I'm just curious what Atheists think about this universe, going back before evolution and abiogenesis, to before the Big Bang. What do you think existed then? And before that? How could anything possibly exist? I honestly can't comprehend a universe without God. Please tell me what you think.

I don't know. What's more, I don't need to know. For example: I use my TV and roughly know how it works, but have absolutely no idea how it was made. In my mind, the universe works, so there's no need to worry about how it exactly came about - or about a being that only exists hypothetically.

I suggest you find a scientifically minded atheist, agnostic or even Christian to explain. Religion and science are by no means incompatable - I can't remember who quoted "Evolution is a wonderful description of how God is making the World." (Although I am an atheist)

Depressing thought:
Does anyone here genuinely think they'll have an answer to what lies beyond the afterlife, while still in this life?

Can we get some intelligent answers in here? I think I've seen just one so far...

To answer the question, whether religious or not, the fact is the universe is made of space and time. Therefore, beyond the universe is beyond space and time. 'Places' and 'moments' have no meaning outside the universe.

So there doesn't have to be anything before the universe, because technically there was nowhere and no time for there to BE anything in.

Alternatively, the question of what was there before God makes no sense either, because God too is beyond the constraints of time.

Got all that?

(also not an atheist btw - I'm a fundamentalist Christian)

Wait, so your telling me, that your going to be one of those people, who answers a question, by not answering it?
The universe is not made of space and time, it is made of space, time is a measurment.
Why is god free from the "constraints" of time, and not the rest of the universe?
And where are all the elves and pixies fitting into all this?!

I kind of like the theory that before the Big Bang there was another universe that had collapsed to a tiny pinprick of ultra condensed everything, and that is what went bang and started to expand again.

I don't, however, need to know if this is true. It is just a pretty, poetic image of a cyclical eternity. It doesn't matter to me what really happened, and if someday someone manages to figure it out and let us know, fine. If not, I don't need the comfort of 'God' to fall back on. 'I have no idea' works for me.

That prompts a couple of questions from me. Why do you need God to have done it? If there is a God, is it not possible that she came into existance with the rest of the universe? If there is not a God, why would that be difficult for you to understand? In fact... if there is no God the answer to how did everything come to be is "I don't know", but, actually, if there IS a God, the answer is still "I don't know" since we have no way of understanding how God does what she is purported to do.

Just a though, but that being the case, Occams razor (a theory which states that the simpler solution is more often the correct one) would indicate that "I don't know" without the complication of God is more likely to be the right answer.

And for the record, I knew you were a fundamentalist cristian, no offence, but every fundamentalist cristian I've met I've had the same problem

Me- So how was everything made?
FC - God
Me - How did god make it?
FC - Hes god
Me - Okay so hes god, but how was he created?
FC - Hes doesn't exist on the same wavelength?
Me - So your saying that because he is "god" he can do anything?
FC - Exactly
Me - Okay man, thats fair enough, because that is the idea behind god
FC - Exactly
Me - But
FC - THERE IS NO BUT
Me - But what about the universe, what separates it from god?
FC - Hes god, just accept it, because I won't rationalise my beliefs to someone who doesn't share them.

No offence man, but thats just how every argument with an FC comes down.

Wait, so your telling me, that your going to be one of those people, who answers a question, by not answering it?
The universe is not made of space and time, it is made of space, time is a measurment.
Why is god free from the "constraints" of time, and not the rest of the universe?
And where are all the elves and pixies fitting into all this?!

No, the universe is made of space AND time. Time is a dimension, like up /down, left / right, forward / back. It's just we are constrained in this dimesnion to travel in one direction only at a fixed rate. Read some Stephen Hawking if you want a better definition of spacetime.

God not being constrained by time comes down to Him being creator of the universe, and therefore creator of space and time. If He created time, He can't be constrained by it.

The elves and pixies are at the bottom of your garden sewing clothes together...

I'm just curious what Atheists think about this universe, going back before evolution and abiogenesis, to before the Big Bang. What do you think existed then? And before that? How could anything possibly exist? I honestly can't comprehend a universe without God. Please tell me what you think.Do you believe the universe has always existed, or do you believe God created it at some point?

If you believe there was no universe and then God went "POOF" to make the universe, then it appears you are saying that the idea of "nothing" is harder for you to comprehend than the idea of "nothing + an omnipotent and omniscient supernatural being who spontaneously created the universe, and all its planets and stars, and then decided to become personally obsessed with a race of hairless apes on a small watery planet orbiting an unremarkable star located off-center in that moderate-size smudgy galaxy"?

And finally.
Maybe god, is just a human way, to stop ourself feeling so lonely and isolated.
Maybe, god is just a human concept.
OR maybe hes real, and maybe I'm wrong, but I mean, honestly, you made no rational argument, you just said that god is infact god.

And for the record, I knew you were a fundamentalist cristian, no offence, but every fundamentalist cristian I've met I've had the same problem

Me- So how was everything made?
FC - God
Me - How did god make it?
FC - Hes god
Me - Okay so hes god, but how was he created?
FC - Hes doesn't exist on the same wavelength?
Me - So your saying that because he is "god" he can do anything?
FC - Exactly
Me - Okay man, thats fair enough, because that is the idea behind god
FC - Exactly
Me - But
FC - THERE IS NO BUT
Me - But what about the universe, what separates it from god?
FC - Hes god, just accept it, because I won't rationalise my beliefs to someone who doesn't share them.

No offence man, but thats just how every argument with an FC comes down.


Actually no. With me it would go like this:

You- So how was everything made?
FC - Read some science - we've got a pretty good handle on most of it by now. But if you want to know 'why?'

If there is no god, what then? Hmmmmmm........probably a barbeque. I'll bring the steaks and drinks, everyone else can worry about the other stuff.

to before the Big Bang. What do you think existed then? And before that?

There exists no such thing as a "before the Big Bang", if you assume this theory to be correct. Therefore your question does not make sense.

I am infact familiar with Hawkings rules, but your talking about time in the sense that its a finely woven fabric (bad analargy but there you go) that exists within everything, that because we're human, we can't move along time in any manor then forward. Correct?
Okay, but you forgot one thing, Hawking, believes there isn't a god.

Actually no. With me it would go like this:

You- So how was everything made?
FC - Read some science - we've got a pretty good handle on most of it by now. But if you want to know 'why?'
Um, no. Fundamentalist Christians do NOT endorse the reading of science. Hell, their religion is practically founded on hating science. Now, there are CHRISTIANS who read science, who love science, who encourage and support science, but the fundies hate and fear the tricksy bookses with their nasty, nasty wordses.

God not being constrained by time comes down to Him being creator of the universe, and therefore creator of space and time. If He created time, He can't be constrained by it.

...

So if God is outside of space and time, where is she? Much like the question of what came before the Big Bang, where does God exist if not constrained by space and time? What is there outside of everything?

Xeropa, Kudos man, you've got a good sense of humour.
On the level man, I think, there is a god, however its not affiliated with any religion, its way beyond that. Honestly, I think we lack the mental capacity to fathom the idea of god, because if god is infact, all powerful, and all knowing, and all present, he would infact, be everything, and by being everything, he is me, my ideals,and everything I stand for. However, hes also you, and everything you stand for, he is everything.
Ya see the problem with trying to understand god is, you'd have to understand everything, which is like, trying to understand, understanding.
Woah I said understanding 4 times in 2 lines, but hey, you get me ?

I am infact familiar with Hawkings rules, but your talking about time in the sense that its a finely woven fabric (bad analargy but there you go) that exists within everything, that because we're human, we can't move along time in any manor then forward. Correct?
Okay, but you forgot one thing, Hawking, believes there isn't a god.

I'm talking about time as a dimension, not some tnagible 'thing' that exists within everything, any more than left and right exist within everything.

And I don't think Hawking ever said he doesn't believe in God. I think what he actually said, in the afterword to Brief History of Time was that he didn't see a need for God. But science has moved on since that book was published and the issue of arbitrary constants has come up.

And besides, just because Stephen Hawking may not believe in God has no relevance to a) his ability to describe spacetime and b) whether God exists or not. Hawking's a clever man but I think he'd be the first to say he has no conclusive proof either way.

As an aside, try reading 'God, the Big Bang and Stephen Hawking' by David Wilkinson - a renowned British astronomer, (actually a Fellow of the Royal Society of Astronomers) and also a Christian. It makes an interesting read.

How about this:

The Universe IS god.

God is omniscient, meaning that there is no sentient thought ever conceived that he does not know.

God is omnipotent, which means that he is the sum total of all energy (and this includes matter, which is nothing more than very slow energy).

God is omnipresent, which means that there is nowhere in space/time that he is not.

Therefor... God is comprised of all thought, all energy and all space/time.

We are, in every way, pieces of god. In body, mind and spirit. So is the chair upon which you sit. And the dog you just fed its kibble. And the wind. And the ideals you hold. All of it is "god".

You are inseparable from it and it has always existed. It is eternal and infinite. When you die your consciousness and living spark will be recycled back into the cosmic energy pool (conservation of energy dictates that it is impossible to destroy energy).

This has always existed and always will.

Too right you are Bottle, but don't phrase it like that, I once had my house burned to the ground because of fundamentalist cristians, or at least I think it was. It was following a long long debate in a lil backwater village back in Swaiziland, the catholic priests/missionary workers had (for lack of better fitting word) "Indoctrinated" the simple people. Long story short, I raised some questions which made them think a little too hard, so they burned down the log cabin I happened to be staying in for those few months. Which anoyed me highly, the worst was having my shoe spat on by the missionary worker for question his mental condition, (having found of course it was him who lead the rather unruly mob).

I am atheist in the extreme and i myself cannot comprehend any other way of thinking.

The way i see it, religious beliefs and other superstitions are a way for people to deal with things they cannot YET understand, Lightning used to be thought of as the wrath of the gods, as an ancient couldnt conceive of electrical charges etc. Therefore the concept of god lingers as we have not yet advanced our understanding of the universe to that point.

And I don't think Hawking ever said he doesn't believe in God. I think what he actually said, in the afterword to Brief History of Time was that he didn't see a need for God. But science has moved on since that book was published and the issue of arbitrary constants has come up.



OK, that kind of sounds like you are indicating that science is somehow coming to "see a need for God". I don't think that is the case at all. God is superfluous to science, an unproven and unprovable theory that does not affect scientific exploration in any way.

Um, no. Fundamentalist Christians do NOT endorse the reading of science. Hell, their religion is practically founded on hating science. Now, there are CHRISTIANS who read science, who love science, who encourage and support science, but the fundies hate and fear the tricksy bookses with their nasty, nasty wordses.

Lol. Guess not all fundamentalist Christians are the same eh? I am one, but also have a Maths and Astronomy degree and a background in too much physics. (Admittedly it's all a little rusty now).

I wrote in another post about what I consider a fundamentalist Christian to be ('Who's worse - Militant Atheists or Fundamentalist Christians' as I recall). Being a fundamentalist used to be something to be proud of, and still is as far as I'm concerned.

Well done glamorgane, thats pretty much it.

However, when religions cut in with their "holy trinity" and "son of god " (I'm the son of god, of course not to be confused with THE son of god, merely a son, orginating from god) I get a little worried, cause lets be honest, they have no proof for that stuff.
I mean the bible, has some important messages, but their contained in metaphors, which have been passed on for 2000 years, like the longest game of chinese whispers, being played in several different langauges.

Being a fundamentalist used to be something to be proud of, and still is as far as I'm concerned.

scary

Well done glamorgane, thats pretty much it.

However, when religions cut in with their "holy trinity" and "son of god " (I'm the son of god, of course not to be confused with THE son of god, merely a son, orginating from god) I get a little worried, cause lets be honest, they have no proof for that stuff.
I mean the bible, has some important messages, but their contained in metaphors, which have been passed on for 2000 years, like the longest game of chinese whispers, being played in several different langauges.

Thank you.

I, too, am the son of god. In that, living on the earth as I do, I cannot avoid it. Everyone and everything comes from "god".

Personally, I think most religions are based upon a revelation of part of the truth. Sadly, the revelers grasp upon that single piece of truth and rather than search for the rest of it they build an entire dogma out of that piece.

There actually isn't a lot of difference between what I believe and what a Theist believes. Except that my view of things has no place for a god that is solely benevolent, as the Christian god is supposed to be. Any god that knows all that there is to know is going to be as malicious as it benevolent. As inattentive as it is interested.

OK, that kind of sounds like you are indicating that science is somehow coming to "see a need for God". I don't think that is the case at all. God is superfluous to science, an unproven and unprovable theory that does not affect scientific exploration in any way.

Not at all. As far as I understand it, theoretical physics has come to the conclusion that if there wasn't something (as in a creator) who decided what the arbitrary constants within the fundamental laws of the universe should be, then there must exist every possible variation of those constants and we exist within one universe of many, but can only see our own hence only see the one set of arbitrary constants. The concept is called the multiverse, and even theoretical physicists thiink it has passed from the realms of physics to the realms of metaphysics as it is totally unprovable and therefore requires an assumption or 'leap of faith'. Theoretical physics has reached its limit as far as explaining the fundamentals of how the universe works.

Hmm. *Sweeping statement alert* on that last line, but you get the idea.

Not at all. As far as I understand it, theoretical physics has come to the conclusion that if there wasn't something (as in a creator) who decided what the arbitrary constants within the fundamental laws of the universe should be, then there must exist every possible variation of those constants and we exist within one universe of many, but can only see our own hence only see the one set of arbitrary constants. The concept is called the multiverse, and even theoretical physicists thiink it has passed from the realms of physics to the realms of metaphysics as it is totally unprovable and therefore requires an assumption or 'leap of faith'. Theoretical physics has reached its limit as far as explaining the fundamentals of how the universe works.

Hmm. *Sweeping statement alert* on that last line, but you get the idea.
Yeah, I would be reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally careful about those claims. My understanding of theoretical physics is puny, but even I know that we haven't even come close to the limits of what we can potentially explain. Hell, string theory alone has openned up more doors than most of us could have imagined, and that stuff is old news to the real pros out there!

Everything existed except your puny god, it took a bunch of humans to make him.

Do you know what! if i were you id shut my mouth! There is a god and he is the one who made all of this. Yes as far as we know there is science and the Big Bang Theory but do you think that science was made by god for us to understand more about nature and how he created all of it? And first of all whoever thinks that god isn't real and this place was made by the big bang(which i have no doubt that the big bang theory is right) but how do you think the big bang happened! Ill tell you how, From some kind of force in space! thats what made it all happen, but if you think you have figured it out you wrong! Where do you think the force came from! :mad:

How about this:

The Universe IS god.

God is omniscient, meaning that there is no sentient thought ever conceived that he does not know.

God is omnipotent, which means that he is the sum total of all energy (and this includes matter, which is nothing more than very slow energy).

God is omnipresent, which means that there is nowhere in space/time that he is not.

Therefor... God is comprised of all thought, all energy and all space/time.

We are, in every way, pieces of god. In body, mind and spirit. So is the chair upon which you sit. And the dog you just fed its kibble. And the wind. And the ideals you hold. All of it is "god".

You are inseparable from it and it has always existed. It is eternal and infinite. When you die your consciousness and living spark will be recycled back into the cosmic energy pool (conservation of energy dictates that it is impossible to destroy energy).

This has always existed and always will.


That's not an argument for God - that's an argument for a complete absence of God. Unless you're imbuing the universe with some inate sentience?

Not at all. As far as I understand it, theoretical physics has come to the conclusion that if there wasn't something (as in a creator) who decided what the arbitrary constants within the fundamental laws of the universe should be, then there must exist every possible variation of those constants and we exist within one universe of many, but can only see our own hence only see the one set of arbitrary constants. The concept is called the multiverse, and even theoretical physicists thiink it has passed from the realms of physics to the realms of metaphysics as it is totally unprovable and therefore requires an assumption or 'leap of faith'. Theoretical physics has reached its limit as far as explaining the fundamentals of how the universe works.

Hmm. *Sweeping statement alert* on that last line, but you get the idea.

Its not metaphysics at all, i dont see how it can be unprovable, if something exists it can be proven. might be beyond us at the moment, but think where we were 100 years ago, think what we will know in 10, 000. Everyone was convinced that newtonian physics was watertight, then einstein. give it a few more einsteins and theyll show you your multiverse if its there

That's not an argument for God - that's an argument for a complete absence of God. Unless you're imbuing the universe with some inate sentience?

One aspect of the Universe-as-god (which I will call the Infinite Entity, or IE for short) is that IE is composed of all sentient thought. By his very definition he is sentient.

I'm just curious what Atheists think about this universe, going back before evolution and abiogenesis, to before the Big Bang. What do you think existed then? And before that? How could anything possibly exist? I honestly can't comprehend a universe without God. Please tell me what you think.
There was no "before the Big Bang" by definition, since time itself was created in the Big Bang. I have found that I am unable to comprehend existence without time.

Yeah, I would be reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally careful about those claims. My understanding of theoretical physics is puny, but even I know that we haven't even come close to the limits of what we can potentially explain.

Yeah - I agree with that. What I meant but didn't convey very well is that theoretical physics has gone as far back down the line of...

What created the universe? The big bang.
What caused the big bang? The fundamental laws of physics.
What decided the laws of physics? They're the only one's that work.
But what about the ridiculously accurate arbitrary constants? Er...

It's either God or Multiverse - take your pick.

There's plenty more left for theoretical physics to unveil, just not down this line of enquiry.

It's either God or Multiverse - take your pick.

now, now, statements like that dont have a very long lifespan do they

Its not metaphysics at all, i dont see how it can be unprovable, if something exists it can be proven. might be beyond us at the moment, but think where we were 100 years ago, think what we will know in 10, 000. Everyone was convinced that newtonian physics was watertight, then einstein. give it a few more einsteins and theyll show you your multiverse if its there

I'm getting onto sketchy territory here, but I believe it's not so much a case of 'we don't know at the moment' but 'because of the nature of what we think it is, it actually precludes us from proving it'. For the multiverse theory to hold water, I think it has to be impossible to discern one universe from another. But I may be wrong. Like I said, I'm more than ready to acknowledge that I've reached the edge of my understanding here.

oooo good question for cristians who use the "what happened before the big bang, something must have created it" Well, what was before god, what created god?

An for all you atheists, I mean, come on, you've got to believe in something, deep down, I bet every time you say there isn't a god, your worried about the possibility that there is? Maybe that lil bit of concern is god?

Another good point for cristians, the bible, is the word of god yes?
Handed down to the disiciples to scribe and make their own interpretations right? Well, the disiciples, as I understand it were human, and living their first run at existance, and I'm human, and I'm living my first run, so what makes them any better equiped to preach what exists outside our narrow senses, then me?

Alright, you think you might have it figured out but your wrong!!! God exists! First of all god doesn't have a beginning and an end he created one for us. Its kind of hard to imagine without a beginning and an end because we have lived with one our whole lives. he built time and the world!

Exail - Lets keep the "DON'T YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT" to the mimimum okay?

I'm getting onto sketchy territory here, but I believe it's not so much a case of 'we don't know at the moment' but 'because of the nature of what we think it is, it actually precludes us from proving it'. For the multiverse theory to hold water, I think it has to be impossible to discern one universe from another. But I may be wrong. Like I said, I'm more than ready to acknowledge that I've reached the edge of my understanding here.

yes, its probably fair comment that no one here, including myself (couldve sounded bad) really is well informed enough to have this debate, but nevermind...

One aspect of the Universe-as-god (which I will call the Infinite Entity, or IE for short) is that IE is composed of all sentient thought. By his very definition he is sentient.

Composed or contains? I would argue the universe contains sentient thought, but that doesn't mean it's composed of it.

But honestly ezail, I respect your beliefs, I personally don't accept things so (for lack of a better word again, forgive me I've learned to be diplomatic) "blindly".
I get what you mean, you mean that for your life to feel fulfilled you must accept that there was/is some force that governs everything in reality?
Just maybe, maybe. wait. don't start shouting at the screen again. Maybe, your wrong, wait. Maybe, just a possibility that your ideas and beliefs might, just might, be wrong. Of course, I'm not going to be foolish enough to pretend anything I know is unquestionable. Because NOTHING is unquestionable, absolutely nothing. Nothing is certain, well except that I'll go to sleep, and wake up, but even thats questionable.

now, now, statements like that dont have a very long lifespan do they

It's lasted the last five years or so (maybe more - I can't remember exactly when the multiverse epiphany happened) and I don't think anyone's come up with any other suggestions in the meantime.

Of course, the first option doesn't dictate a flavour of God, so there's plenty to argue about yet...

I'm getting onto sketchy territory here, but I believe it's not so much a case of 'we don't know at the moment' but 'because of the nature of what we think it is, it actually precludes us from proving it'. For the multiverse theory to hold water, I think it has to be impossible to discern one universe from another. But I may be wrong. Like I said, I'm more than ready to acknowledge that I've reached the edge of my understanding here.

I think Xeropa's more or less on the right track here. I think that there is, indeed, a multiverse composed of alternative timelines based on probability.

Call it the "What If" principle.

What If Germany had won WWII?

What If Constantine hadn't had his vision of the cross and made Rome into a Christian Empire?

Time is not linear, it is like a quantum probability bubble. Once set in motion it has various possible outcomes. All of those outcomes exist until an observation/choice is made. Once made, the probability reduces to 1:1 and no other possibility, by definition exists for it.

Sooo... if I choose to get up from my computer right now and get a bowl of chili, I therefor choose NOT to get up and close my blinds. Or just sit here and type. Once I make a decision... once I observe its consequences, I am forever shut out from the consequences of those other choices. And because of that we humans will never be able to prove, definitively, that the multiverse exists. Because, by definition, we will have abdicated our right to do so by the simple act of observation, which we cannot avoid.

okay wait, my last post was minorly offensive to some people in this world (if they chose it to be) so I apologise that I may have offended you. However, you get my basic point right, that you can't really know anything for definite till it comes up and bites you in the ass.

How about this:

The Universe IS god.

God is omniscient, meaning that there is no sentient thought ever conceived that he does not know.

God is omnipotent, which means that he is the sum total of all energy (and this includes matter, which is nothing more than very slow energy).

God is omnipresent, which means that there is nowhere in space/time that he is not.

Therefor... God is comprised of all thought, all energy and all space/time.

We are, in every way, pieces of god. In body, mind and spirit. So is the chair upon which you sit. And the dog you just fed its kibble. And the wind. And the ideals you hold. All of it is "god".

You are inseparable from it and it has always existed. It is eternal and infinite. When you die your consciousness and living spark will be recycled back into the cosmic energy pool (conservation of energy dictates that it is impossible to destroy energy).

This has always existed and always will.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. :)

Composed or contains? I would argue the universe contains sentient thought, but that doesn't mean it's composed of it.

No, sentient thought is only one component of IE. IE is also composed of all energy, matter and space/time. In a previous post of mine on this same thread I said as much.

Im not trying to make you believe in god, im trying to convince you that you should. I mean god is real whether you like it or not, but you can choose what you believe in, sort of like a test, he just gives you so many options and problems and the ones who stand strong and still believe in god to the point of death pass.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. :)

Which, if you think about it, is not horribly different than what I said. The difference between what I believe and what a Christian believes, fundamentally, is that I don't feel that god cares. That god is benevolent. After all, if he is omniscient he is just as likely to be malicious as he is benevolent.

Yeah but the possibilitys for alternative realitys being created are so infinite, like, air moving in a different direction, or even particles reacting at a different speed. So if there is a multiverse, its either, so infinite that exploring it would be impossible, or there are some defining acts that would deem the creation of a new universe?

Ezail, I already said, I believe in god. Just I don't think hes limited to religion.

Yeah but the possibilitys for alternative realitys being created are so infinite, like, air moving in a different direction, or even particles reacting at a different speed. So if there is a multiverse, its either, so infinite that exploring it would be impossible, or there are some defining acts that would deem the creation of a new universe?

See, the wonderful thing about eternity and infinity is that it renders such distinctions moot.

But to answer your question, if I had to guess I would say that the act of observation defines new universes. Without observation, again much like quantum physics at the subatomic level, any distinction is guesswork. A probability function. Reality is determined only once the probability function is collapsed by observation.

We know quantum physics works on the micro, or sub-atomic level. I believe that quantum physics works on the macro level as well.

I think Xeropa's more or less on the right track here. I think that there is, indeed, a multiverse composed of alternative timelines based on probability.

Actually 1) I don't believe the multiverse theory is true - I believe in God,
and 2) Mulitverse and 'what if?' aren't the same (neither are they mutually exclusive, but that's beside the point).

Multiverse depends on there being infinite universe based on infinite possibilities for the arbitrary constants in the fundamental laws of physics. It makes no comment on what happens within those universes.

There's another thread somewhere talking about a counterpoint to 'what if?' called scientific pre-determinism, which says that the whole universe is following the only course it can. To simplify (and to steal an analogy from somewhere else), we can consider the universe as a pool table. If we know the exact position of all the balls and the exact forces at work, we can predict where every ball will end up at any point in time. Similarly, everything in the universe is following set laws, so everything is predictable IF you know everything force at work and every law at work. We don't, but the theory still works. By that argument, you WILL only do one certain thing in any decision making opportunity, because that's the path set in motion by the laws on the universe.

Personally, I don't agree with that either.

No one really knows, but someday people will figure it out.

Which, if you think about it, is not horribly different than what I said. The difference between what I believe and what a Christian believes, fundamentally, is that I don't feel that god cares. That god is benevolent. After all, if he is omniscient he is just as likely to be malicious as he is benevolent.

I posted that because it, in a way, confirms what you were saying. I personally believe something very similar to what you are talking about here.

What created the universe? The big bang.
What caused the big bang? The fundamental laws of physics.
What decided the laws of physics? They're the only one's that work.
But what about the ridiculously accurate arbitrary constants? Er...


Point being, the "Word" that is one and the same with God, are the very "ridiculously accurate arbitrary constants" that bind the universe together. Physics, thermodynamics, that sort of thing, are all the Word that was "In the beginning."

I havent had time to read through the whole forum so im sort of behind, but have you ever wondered what it would be like if you were to die and thier was no life after death or any religion at all, just science and once you die its over it just ends and your gone, everything just goes black and you don't have any more life! No memories nothing its just over.

I challenge any of you who don't believe in God to research the big bang or whatever and find evidence that proves that the big bang or evolution is a 100% given fact...The big bang was created out of the imagination because someone asked how, and the scientist had no clue as to what to say so they theorize about it...which is all that stuff is...theories...even if there is no God, which I firmly believe there is, it has just as much scientific proof to it than the big bang theory, if not more (which I know it does because scientist can trace back the roatations of the earth and have admitted that there is a missing span of several hours worth of the earth's spin not accounted for and in the Bible there is a story about how the sun stopped in the sky till the battle was done). I can debate any issue you guys want to bring up.

Actually 1) I don't believe the multiverse theory is true - I believe in God,
and 2) Mulitverse and 'what if?' aren't the same (neither are they mutually exclusive, but that's beside the point).

Multiverse depends on there being infinite universe based on infinite possibilities for the arbitrary constants in the fundamental laws of physics. It makes no comment on what happens within those universes.

There's another thread somewhere talking about a counterpoint to 'what if?' called scientific pre-determinism, which says that the whole universe is following the only course it can. To simplify (and to steal an analogy from somewhere else), we can consider the universe as a pool table. If we know the exact position of all the balls and the exact forces at work, we can predict where every ball will end up at any point in time. Similarly, everything in the universe is following set laws, so everything is predictable IF you know everything force at work and every law at work. We don't, but the theory still works. By that argument, you WILL only do one certain thing in any decision making opportunity, because that's the path set in motion by the laws on the universe.

Personally, I don't agree with that either.

I disagree with that pre-determinism. Mainly because I know for a fact that I have free will. Perhaps there is fate on a larger level and my input into that fate is marginal, but I make day to day choices about what I will do.

Belief in the multiverse does not preclude a belief in god. It only requires that you revise your definition of him.

But from whoms observation point, do we consider all life forms, or just humans?
Are animals free from sentient thought ? of course not, so do we extend that to any life form, do plants think?

The universe is infinitely old, it has always existed. Being infinitely old it had no beginning. The human mind isn't able to comprehend anything without beginning, so many say god created... etc.

- I want to make it clear that I'm not claiming to be able to comprehend something infinitely old, I just recognise this limitation...

Mulick']I challenge any of you who don't believe in God to research the big bang or whatever and find evidence that proves that the big bang or evolution is a 100% given fact...The big bang was created out of the imagination because someone asked how, and the scientist had no clue as to what to say so they theorize about it...which is all that stuff is...theories...even if there is no God, which I firmly believe there is, it has just as much scientific proof to it than the big bang theory, if not more (which I know it does because scientist can trace back the roatations of the earth and have admitted that there is a missing span of several hours worth of the earth's spin not accounted for and in the Bible there is a story about how the sun stopped in the sky till the battle was done). I can debate any issue you guys want to bring up.

Where did you read about these "missing hours" of the earth's rotation?

And yes, there is evidence of the Big Bang. You're kind of talking out of your ass here, friend...

We know quantum physics works on the micro, or sub-atomic level. I believe that quantum physics works on the macro level as well.

It doesn't - or rather it does, but to an incredibly negligible degree. Newtonian physics becomes dominant on the macro level. It's all down to the equations (none of which come to mind, but then it is quarter to midnight here). At tiny dimensions, the quantum parts are dominant. At normal to enormous dimesnions, the Newtonian parts are dominant.

Ezail - People born without sight cannot comprehend darkness, so I doubt there would just be darkness, there would just infact, be nothing.

And [NS]Mulick - PROVE THERES A GOD. INSTEAD of asking people to prove their beliefs, and sit there, deriding from other peoples expierances of life, prove your own beliefs, and maybe, they will join you.

I'm just curious what Atheists think about this universe, going back before evolution and abiogenesis, to before the Big Bang. What do you think existed then? And before that? How could anything possibly exist? I honestly can't comprehend a universe without God. Please tell me what you think.
You've undoubtedly been given this answer already, but just in case you haven't, here's the way I see it:

There's no Atheist creation theory. Atheists are a diverse bunch. This particular one leans towards believing what science tells us about the universe.
That means I consider it nonsensical to speculate about the state of things before the Big Bang. No doubt we'll never be able to know anything about it, regardless of how close we get to the start of the Big Bang.
And to me, it's non-sensical to speculate about the unknowable. It's one of the reasons why I find religions a bit silly (no offence intended).

I have no idea what-so-ever what went on 'before' the Big Bang. Honestly, I don't think the term 'before' is even applicable. Time is an integral part of the current state of the universe, thus it started at the Big Bang. Talking about things outside time is incomprehensible...

Personally I have trouble comprehending a universe with a deity, at least if the deity is anything remotely similar to what human religions describe. I can't see how it's logically possible. And I have some major moral issues with any such deity/deities to boot. For the life of me, I can't see how they could have any benign intentions.

But all that is just my personal opinion. If you believe in God, then you believe in God. There's not much point in arguing about it. We can just exchange points of veiw, and learn to accept eachother. Debating the merits of either attitude is pointless, as none of us will change our minds.

and as for the free will thing, it is just an illusion. People, like everything else are governed by the laws of science... why wouldn't they be.
Have a read of this article http://www.determinism.com/05042002.shtml

Sun, stand still over Gibeon, and moon, you also, over the Vale of Aijalon'. And the sun stood still, and the moon halted, till the people had vengeance on their enemies." (Joshua 10:12-13).

Now give me proof of the big bang.

The universe is infinitely old, it has always existed. Being infinitely old it had no beginning. The human mind isn't able to comprehend anything without beginning, so many say god created... etc.

- I want to make it clear that I'm not claiming to be able to comprehend something infinitely old, I just recognise this limitation...

See i dont agree with you, i think there is a beggining and there will be an end, for us and the universe but not for god, there is no way that it can have no beggining.

Actually, I think it is pretty well agreed upon that the universe did exist before the big bang, but only in 1 dimmension, as a singularity. And it may have expanded and collapsed many times.

But from whoms observation point, do we consider all life forms, or just humans?
Are animals free from sentient thought ? of course not, so do we extend that to any life form, do plants think?

See, now THIS I believe is the ultimate question.

What constitutes observation? And, taken to its logical terminus, what constitutes sentience?

To be honest, I not only don't know but I haven't been able to find an answer that satisfies me either. I find it hard to believe that the proverbial tree fell in the forest if a dog sees it yet cannot relate the fact that it fell to another organism who can put the event in context.

So maybe it's about context? Maybe the observation of the dog really DOES constitute a collapse of the probability function and thereby spins off a new universe. Who knows?

before everything there was only one thing































































































CHEESE!

See i dont agree with you, i think there is a beggining and there will be an end, for us and the universe but not for god, there is no way that it can have no beggining.

why can't it have no beginning? Could it be that you can't imagine anything with no beginning, thus proving my original point?

Ezail - People born without sight cannot comprehend darkness, so I doubt there would just be darkness, there would just infact, be nothing.

And [NS]Mulick - PROVE THERES A GOD. INSTEAD of asking people to prove their beliefs, and sit there, deriding from other peoples expierances of life, prove your own beliefs, and maybe, they will join you.
Thats what i meant, nothing, just darkness is my way of saying it.

Oh man I'm thinking deep again...

Ok, to me, I have no clue what started the universe, it can't have been 'just there' can it? Goodness knows...

And as for God, I'm Athiest, but in a weird sense, I believe that the 'higher being' is what's spiritually left of my ancestors who guide me as they see fit.

Whatever.

The universe is infinitely old, it has always existed. Being infinitely old it had no beginning.
No it isn't. The universe is approximately 14 billion years old (?). Read about blueshift and Hubble's Law.

And [NS]Mulick - PROVE THERES A GOD. INSTEAD of asking people to prove their beliefs, and sit there, deriding from other peoples expierances of life, prove your own beliefs, and maybe, they will join you.

Im not trying to deride people of their beliefs...I am a christian but one thing that bothers me more than most is christians who just blindly accept the faith because someone told them to...I used to not believe in god till I studied the facts, I want people to think and not just accept...I believe everyone should be able to believe what they will...just by their own choice and study not by someone elses words.

No it isn't. The universe is approximately 20 billion years old (?). Read about blueshift and Hubble's Law.

isn't that the universe in its current form though?

It doesn't - or rather it does, but to an incredibly negligible degree. Newtonian physics becomes dominant on the macro level. It's all down to the equations (none of which come to mind, but then it is quarter to midnight here). At tiny dimensions, the quantum parts are dominant. At normal to enormous dimesnions, the Newtonian parts are dominant.

We don't know that yet, Xeropa. We can measure the macro world more easily with Newtonian physics, but Newtonian physics is ALWAYS an approximation. The devil's in the details.

You ask a physicist why quantum mechanics is the way it is and he will tell you, point blank, that he doesn't know. That is perilously close to saying that quantum physics is skirting the edge of metaphysics.

"There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy"

[NS]Mulick - Thats not proof, I've already said all I'm going to say about the bible, scan the forum entirely. Don't bring the bible into this, because if your going to accept their writings as truth (even without proof) (tehehe that rhymed, kinda) then we're going to bring in every holy book there is.
"The New Athiest Reformed beliefs - There is no god"
"The buddhist beliefs - There is no god, only knowledge which leads to power"
I could continue but I mean, you get the idea. Dude the bible wasn't even writen in english, bible scholars still argue over the translations. Don't bring the bible to a philosophical debate, unless of course your willing to accept that people won't believe the word of a man, claiming hes talked to god.
Ya know theres all those cults in the states, that do all that suicide stuff, they've got their own bibles.
Has anyone seen the episode of southpark where they really take it out of that guy who claims to be a "spiritual medium". Anyone who claims to know more about the mysteries of the universe, is really, just slowing down the progress of man from finding real answers. And to be honest, i think the answers behind theology, ARE WHATEVER YOU WANT THEM TO BE, because whose really gonna make you believe otherwise.
Comprendai?

Composed or contains? I would argue the universe contains sentient thought, but that doesn't mean it's composed of it.

I actually kind of like that IE theory... and it does make sense. Consider, if you will, an individual cell in your body. It has no sentience of its own, but is part of a larger whole which is sentient. Perhaps the stars and the dust and we are just cells in the larger whole of a sentient omnipotent, omnipresent being.

Mulick']Sun, stand still over Gibeon, and moon, you also, over the Vale of Aijalon'. And the sun stood still, and the moon halted, till the people had vengeance on their enemies." (Joshua 10:12-13).

Now give me proof of the big bang.

Quoting the Bible is not proof. It's circular reasoning. You're saying god exists because you have a book you believe god wrote.

isn't that the universe in its current form though?

It makes no sense to talk about the universe in a different form. If there was something before the big bang, to all intents and purposes it was a different universe. It's unknowable - we don't have any way of discerning what the laws of any previous universe may have been.

Mulick']Im not trying to deride people of their beliefs...I am a christian but one thing that bothers me more than most is christians who just blindly accept the faith because someone told them to...I used to not believe in god till I studied the facts, I want people to think and not just accept...I believe everyone should be able to believe what they will...just by their own choice and study not by someone elses words.

You are extremly right, I am 100% with you on that! And i also believe that the universe didn't start by the big band i believe that this has been going on forever, and when we die off, god will probably make some thing else to replace us like we replaced the dinosaurs.

of course it makes sense. As matter cannot be created or destroyed the matter which makes up our universe in its current form has always existed. In whatever form the universe has taken. That makes perfect sense.

[NS]Mulick - Easy now, you contradicted yourself. So you don't want people to just read things and accept them blindly, but you just quoted the bible as fact?

[NS]Mulick - Thats not proof, I've already said all I'm going to say about the bible, scan the forum entirely. Don't bring the bible into this, because if your going to accept their writings as truth (even without proof) (tehehe that rhymed, kinda) then we're going to bring in every holy book there is.
"The New Athiest Reformed beliefs - There is no god"
"The buddhist beliefs - There is no god, only knowledge which leads to power"
I could continue but I mean, you get the idea. Dude the bible wasn't even writen in english, bible scholars still argue over the translations. Don't bring the bible to a philosophical debate, unless of course your willing to accept that people won't believe the word of a man, claiming hes talked to god.
Ya know theres all those cults in the states, that do all that suicide stuff, they've got their own bibles.
Has anyone seen the episode of southpark where they really take it out of that guy who claims to be a "spiritual medium". Anyone who claims to know more about the mysteries of the universe, is really, just slowing down the progress of man from finding real answers. And to be honest, i think the answers behind theology, ARE WHATEVER YOU WANT THEM TO BE, because whose really gonna make you believe otherwise.
Comprendai?

Like I said I only believe the bible because of scientific research i have done on the big bang evolution and the beliefs of christianity. But i really would like for people ask me to prove specific parts of the bible and I will try to the best of my ability to...Im not promising anything because I am still a hgih school student and not a scholar, but I search for my answers and beliefs not jsut blindly accept. I thought the bible was fooey until i researched it and found it holds more water than any other theory of creation or materialization.

You are extremly right, I am 100% with you on that! And i also believe that the universe didn't start by the big band i believe that this has been going on forever, and when we die off, god will probably make some thing else to replace us like we replaced the dinosaurs.
LOL, Big Band, i mean big band.

I actually kind of like that IE theory... and it does make sense. Consider, if you will, an individual cell in your body. It has no sentience of its own, but is part of a larger whole which is sentient. Perhaps the stars and the dust and we are just cells in the larger whole of a sentient omnipotent, omnipresent being.

Exactly so.

"As above, so below."

Atoms make up our cells, which make up our organs, which make us, who are part of the Earth, which is part of the solar system which is part of the galaxy which is part of the universe... and so on forever. We cannot be separated from IE (god, if you like). We are it. It is us.

Personally I believe that we are sitting on an immense, untapped potential and are simply waiting to understand our role.

I'm just curious what Atheists think about this universe, going back before evolution and abiogenesis, to before the Big Bang. What do you think existed then? And before that? How could anything possibly exist? I honestly can't comprehend a universe without God. Please tell me what you think.
God, or gods, is an irrelevant factor not required for anything other than to make up for incomprehendable or unknown facts.

We don't know that yet, Xeropa. We can measure the macro world more easily with Newtonian physics, but Newtonian physics is ALWAYS an approximation. The devil's in the details.

You ask a physicist why quantum mechanics is the way it is and he will tell you, point blank, that he doesn't know. That is perilously close to saying that quantum physics is skirting the edge of metaphysics.

Point one - we DO know that, because we have equations like the full version of E=MCsq. Saying Newtonian physics is always an approximation is like saying 10 is an approximation of 10.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001. it may be true, but all the bits after the decimal point are negligible on the scale of the 10.

Point two - any more than he knows really why Newtonian physics is the way it is. Science looks at how, not why. We can try to discern the why from the how, but it'll only ever be conjecture.

No it isn't. The universe is approximately 20 billion years old (?). Read about blueshift and Hubble's Law.


That doesnt necessarilly mean it has existed for 20 billion years, it just means the matter we can see has been expanding from one point, ie the big bang, for 20 billion years. Science tells us matter cannot be created or destroyed, only interchanged with energy, so all the stuff in the universe must always have existed.

And theres also the big crunch theory. What if gravity eventually pulls all the matter back to one point? Then there would be another big bang and 20 billion years later people would say it was 20 billion years old, when its really 40. or 60 or 80 etc. Yes I know the universes rate of expansion is accelarating, but if the rate of accelaration could be increasing or decreasing. If its decreasing it will eventually stop accelarating. Then slow down. Then Crunch.

Or theres relativity which I cant be bothered to research but basically our 20 billion years could be 50 in another part of the universe. And relative to the start it could be infinity. If its infinately big why cant it be ininately old?

Anyway point is if there is no god then everything has always existed in some form. probably.

I havent had time to read through the whole forum so im sort of behind, but have you ever wondered what it would be like if you were to die and thier was no life after death or any religion at all, just science and once you die its over it just ends and your gone, everything just goes black and you don't have any more life! No memories nothing its just over.

I assume that this is true (as I have no way of knowing that it is not), and so am attempting to make the most I can of what I KNOW I have, this life here and now. In doing so, I am assured that I will have the best I can possibly have, and if there is something afterwards, I will do the best I can with it too.

[NS]Mulick - You choose to believe that the bible holds more wait then any other, because you WOULD in fact like to believe that someone else has already explained the mysteries of the universe.
However, A muslim, might be inclined to believe that the Qu'Ran holds more wait in science and reality then any other religious text.
If you can explain, why god, would require worship, then I will answer any question you have on religion. God is not insecure is he ?

Cool - my question has turned into a full-scale debate!

Be seeing you people; I don't have any time to say anything else right now...

dictionary definition of god - That which there can be no greater.
So the idea of multiple gods is even more far fetched, because the word god, means , the most powerful/knowing/everything blah di blah we've already covered what god is so I can't be assed, I need more coffee.

Mulick']Sun, stand still over Gibeon, and moon, you also, over the Vale of Aijalon'. And the sun stood still, and the moon halted, till the people had vengeance on their enemies." (Joshua 10:12-13).

Now give me proof of the big bang.

This is a bible quote. It does not prove anything about anything. It ASSERTS that some event happened, but does not prove it.

"If theres no god, what then?"
I just noticed is that actaul title of this forum, so we're not here to debate wether or not there is a god, we're here to debate, "what then" but I mean, the only real answers to that is
1. Reality?
2. Time?
3. Space
4. Nothing
5. Giant pink flamingoes
and 6 most importantly. The elves and the faeries at the bottom of my garden handling my laundry.

of course it makes sense. As matter cannot be created or destroyed the matter which makes up our universe in its current form has always existed. In whatever form the universe has taken. That makes perfect sense.

According to the laws which govern this universe, there is conservation of energy (since matter and energy are interchangeable). But you're back to the problem of why are the laws the way they are? And who decided how much matter / energy there should be? And how do we know the laws in any previous universe were the same as this one?

Similarly Zolworld. If what came before the big bang was a big crunch, what was before that? Another big bang, preceded by another big crunch? And so on presumably back to an infinite point?

That's no more satisfactory to science than saying God made it, and He existed infinitely (or for Pratchett fans, it's turtles all the way down). You're never explaining an origin, but ducking the issue by saying there never was one.

Point one - we DO know that, because we have equations like the full version of E=MCsq. Saying Newtonian physics is always an approximation is like saying 10 is an approximation of 10.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001. it may be true, but all the bits after the decimal point are negligible on the scale of the 10.

Point two - any more than he knows really why Newtonian physics is the way it is. Science looks at how, not why. We can try to discern the why from the how, but it'll only ever be conjecture.

The difference, I think, is that quantum physics runs counter to what we consider to be common sense. It works and no one knows how. It's not just the "why" with quantum mechanics, it's the "how". They don't know either one.

Besides, when we talk about the macro world I think we're talking about two different things. You're talking about observable celestial mechanics. I'm talking about the ultimate nature of the universe.

We're going to plan b everybody.

Everything exists. Always has, Always will. Sooner or later. We're going to have to deal with that, then move on.

SECOND NEPHI, CHAPTER TWO, VERSES 5-27.

5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men...

...11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, ... righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not; there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now... I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon...

...16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other...

...22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy...

...27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men (Christ), or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself...

According to the laws which govern this universe, there is conservation of energy (since matter and energy are interchangeable). But you're back to the problem of why are the laws the way they are? And who decided how much matter / energy there should be? And how do we know the laws in any previous universe were the same as this one?

Similarly Zolworld. If what came before the big bang was a big crunch, what was before that? Another big bang, preceded by another big crunch? And so on presumably back to an infinite point?

That's no more satisfactory to science than saying God made it, and He existed infinitely (or for Pratchett fans, it's turtles all the way down). You're never explaining an origin, but ducking the issue by saying there never was one.

You're proceeding from two separate assumptions.

One, that anything ordered and regular must have a creator. That is not necessarily true.

Two, that the entirety of reality (universe, multiverse, whatever) needs to have a beginning. There is no reason that it would need a beginning.

[NS]Mulick - You choose to believe that the bible holds more wait then any other, because you WOULD in fact like to believe that someone else has already explained the mysteries of the universe.
However, A muslim, might be inclined to believe that the Qu'Ran holds more wait in science and reality then any other religious text.
If you can explain, why god, would require worship, then I will answer any question you have on religion. God is not insecure is he ?

Like i said I used to not believe in the bible until i researched and chose my decision based on everything i read. The only time i read the bible was the beginning of each argument showing the verse they were proving...I would love to answer your wuestion but im goin to see a movie...e-mail me at jon45pm@comcast.net and ill get back to you with my full reply. prolly by tomorrow mornin

According to the laws which govern this universe, there is conservation of energy (since matter and energy are interchangeable). But you're back to the problem of why are the laws the way they are? And who decided how much matter / energy there should be? And how do we know the laws in any previous universe were the same as this one?

Similarly Zolworld. If what came before the big bang was a big crunch, what was before that? Another big bang, preceded by another big crunch? And so on presumably back to an infinite point?

That's no more satisfactory to science than saying God made it, and He existed infinitely (or for Pratchett fans, it's turtles all the way down). You're never explaining an origin, but ducking the issue by saying there never was one.

Particularly the "so on presumably back to an infinite point" statement.... There is no infinite point. That's an oxymoron. Its infinite, it has no end, it has no beginning. Which takes me right back to my very first point about not being able to understand the concept of infinite.
Also, a previous universe? has this even been mentioned? I thought it had been suggested that the universe existed before the big bang, although perhaps not exactly like it is today, it is impossible to tell. But as it is made of the same matter, its the same universe, yes?
And why did someone have to decide how much matter/energy there is? Oh yes, back to my first point again

I actually kind of like that IE theory... and it does make sense. Consider, if you will, an individual cell in your body. It has no sentience of its own, but is part of a larger whole which is sentient. Perhaps the stars and the dust and we are just cells in the larger whole of a sentient omnipotent, omnipresent being.
Exactly so.

"As above, so below."

Atoms make up our cells, which make up our organs, which make us, who are part of the Earth, which is part of the solar system which is part of the galaxy which is part of the universe... and so on forever. We cannot be separated from IE (god, if you like). We are it. It is us.

Personally I believe that we are sitting on an immense, untapped potential and are simply waiting to understand our role.
Oddly, this would qualify as being Atheism :p

But I don't share your belief

Exactly so.

"As above, so below."

Atoms make up our cells, which make up our organs, which make us, who are part of the Earth, which is part of the solar system which is part of the galaxy which is part of the universe... and so on forever. We cannot be separated from IE (god, if you like). We are it. It is us.

Personally I believe that we are sitting on an immense, untapped potential and are simply waiting to understand our role.

'As above, so below' was dismissed by science when Bohr first mapped the paths of electrons and everyone realised they weren't actually anything like the paths of planets etc. And very disappointed they were too because it was such a nice theory. Just wrong. Yes there is scale, but it doesn't actually prove anything. Atoms are not like cells, cells are not like organs, organs are not like us, we are not like the earth, etc. etc. etc. Why should the universe be like anything else?

Sorry, but IE is hogwash. There is no indication that my chair has any divinity about it, or the tree in my garden.

I'd love to carry on but it's 12:17 and I'm at work in the morning. I'll leave it to the alchemists and universal consciousness adherents... Good luck with finding the philosophick mercury.

Oddly, this would qualify as being Atheism :p

But I don't share your belief

I guess that would really depend upon your definition of Theism. hehehe

'As above, so below' was dismissed by science when Bohr first mapped the paths of electrons and everyone realised they weren't actually anything like the paths of planets etc. And very disappointed they were too because it was such a nice theory. Just wrong. Yes there is scale, but it doesn't actually prove anything. Atoms are not like cells, cells are not like organs, organs are not like us, we are not like the earth, etc. etc. etc. Why should the universe be like anything else?

Sorry, but IE is hogwash. There is no indication that my chair has any divinity about it, or the tree in my garden.

I'd love to carry on but it's 12:17 and I'm at work in the morning. I'll leave it to the alchemists and universal consciousness adherents... Good luck with finding the philosophick mercury.

"As above, so below" is just a convenient way to express the idea.

Your chair is not divine if you define divinity in the terms of an anthropomorphic god. What I am saying is that perhaps your definition of divinity might need revision. If the universe is god, then everything in the universe is divine.

I'm just curious what Atheists think about this universe, going back before evolution and abiogenesis, to before the Big Bang. What do you think existed then? And before that? How could anything possibly exist? I honestly can't comprehend a universe without God. Please tell me what you think.


Please tell me what caused god?

In your logic, how could god possibly exist, we just don't know yet. BTW give it time, unlike religion, science doesn't imagine or make up an answer they use rational logic and positivistic methods to find one.

Everything existed except your puny god, it took a bunch of humans to make him.

What proof do you have? How can you prove god dosent exist. just because you cant see it, dosent mean it dosent exist. You cant see atoms, but they exist. What makes you think the human mind, can comprehend who or what god truly is.

Alright guys, lets pack in the philosophical talk for the night. I mean lets be honest, some people came here to argue some points, others came to argue others, neither entered this forum to pick up some new beliefs or even allow theirs to be altered. So lets just get onto a more peaceful topic.

What is everyones drug of choice?
(If your offended by the use of drugs, I do apologise)

there is a God and everything in my life is proof of it. Case closed

there is a God and everything in my life is proof of it. Case closed

another victim of the brainwashing, mind control thing...

'As above, so below' was dismissed by science when Bohr first mapped the paths of electrons and everyone realised they weren't actually anything like the paths of planets etc. And very disappointed they were too because it was such a nice theory. Just wrong. Yes there is scale, but it doesn't actually prove anything. Atoms are not like cells, cells are not like organs, organs are not like us, we are not like the earth, etc. etc. etc. Why should the universe be like anything else?

Sorry, but IE is hogwash. There is no indication that my chair has any divinity about it, or the tree in my garden.

I'd love to carry on but it's 12:17 and I'm at work in the morning. I'll leave it to the alchemists and universal consciousness adherents... Good luck with finding the philosophick mercury.

Things being "like" each other does not seem to be the point. Rather, things are part of other, larger things. Atoms are part of cells, humans are part of the greater subset 'life', and if the Big Bang is true, then everything that is came from one point, so we are all part of that point that has just spread out a whole lot. You, me, your chair, the tree. All of us are a part of the whole that makes up the universe. If the Big Bang was not caused by some outside creator, but simply happened, doesn't that make the Big Bang itself the creator? And if we are all part of the resultant universe, doesn't that make you, and your tree, all a part of "God"? It is just as reasonable a theory as God being a separate entity outside of time and space.

Now all we have to do is define what God is.

there is a God and everything in my life is proof of it. Case closed

I want evidence!

Sticking your head in the sand doesn't make the lion go away. Nor does shunning rational logic because it doesn't offer eternal paradise. Case Closed.

All that was asked is how the Universe could exist without a God. You people refuse to answer the question! You go on about things like Newtonian physics, quoting the Bible, and pink flamingoes. Is that really relevant?

Things happened right? Whether or not God influenced the big bang it happened. That's doesn't mean it hasn't happened before, or that it was all planned out to happen this way as it did, but it happened. Now, if you believe that God didn't create the Universe, then what did? Was it just sitting there? Doing nothing? And if you believe that God did create the Universe, then why did He? And Why is God who He is? These are questions that are impossible to answer. Only faith can guide you. But here's an idea! How about you just accept God, and live like He wants you to live. Then, if you're that reality of God does not come to pass, then you've still lived a meaningful and good life. But if you choose to ignore God, and He does in fact exist, then you're pretty much screwed, right? Now, i'm not suggesting that you love God just for the potential aspect of Heaven, but if you can get on the right track, then you're going to believe. So all you athiests out there, what if you're wrong? Are you going to spend eternity in Hell because you refused to love something you couldn't see, to believe in something, or to read a book? You can't see atoms or gravity, yet all of you believes they exist. We have no 'proof' that we landed on the moon, but you believe with all your heart that we did. And you've read books that have no positive influence on you, but you don't read one that will change your life? Why can't you believe with all your heart that God exists? That God created the Universe. Is this really a hard concept to grasp?

And by the way, I don't think anyone's mentioned antimatter yet... When antimatter touches antimatter, IT RESULTS IN A HUGH EXPLOSION THAT CREATES IMMENSE AMOUNTS OF MATTER. Sound familiar?

>hinky

OKAY PEOPLE
STOP ARGUING.
We know that you will dissagree if you beliefs are different.
AGREE TO DISAGREE.
And now
What is everyones drug of choice, starting with Xeropa.

Whose for agreeing to dissagree?

All that was asked is how the Universe could exist without a God. You people refuse to answer the question! You go on about things like Newtonian physics, quoting the Bible, and pink flamingoes. Is that really relevant?

Things happened right? Whether or not God influenced the big bang it happened. That's doesn't mean it hasn't happened before, or that it was all planned out to happen this way as it did, but it happened. Now, if you believe that God didn't create the Universe, then what did? Was it just sitting there? Doing nothing? And if you believe that God did create the Universe, then why did He? And Why is God who He is? These are questions that are impossible to answer. Only faith can guide you. But here's an idea! How about you just accept God, and live like He wants you to live. Then, if you're that reality of God does not come to pass, then you've still lived a meaningful and good life. But if you choose to ignore God, and He does in fact exist, then you're pretty much screwed, right? Now, i'm not suggesting that you love God just for the potential aspect of Heaven, but if you can get on the right track, then you're going to believe. So all you athiests out there, what if you're wrong? Are you going to spend eternity in Hell because you refused to love something you couldn't see, to believe in something, or to read a book? You can't see atoms or gravity, yet all of you believes they exist. We have no 'proof' that we landed on the moon, but you believe with all your heart that we did. And you've read books that have no positive influence on you, but you don't read one that will change your life? Why can't you believe with all your heart that God exists? That God created the Universe. Is this really a hard concept to grasp?

And by the way, I don't think anyone's mentioned antimatter yet... When antimatter touches antimatter, IT RESULTS IN A HUGH EXPLOSION THAT CREATES IMMENSE AMOUNTS OF MATTER. Sound familiar?

>hinky


I answered the question, nothing created the universe, its just always been there, and I can't understand how that suggestion makes less sense to some people than the idea of god does. Its a far more obvious and sensible idea...

wait looks like he/she is gone. Anyone, Drug of choice?
I'll start if anyones worried about being called a druggy.?

All that was asked is how the Universe could exist without a God. You people refuse to answer the question! You go on about things like Newtonian physics, quoting the Bible, and pink flamingoes. Is that really relevant?

Things happened right? Whether or not God influenced the big bang it happened. That's doesn't mean it hasn't happened before, or that it was all planned out to happen this way as it did, but it happened. Now, if you believe that God didn't create the Universe, then what did? Was it just sitting there? Doing nothing? And if you believe that God did create the Universe, then why did He? And Why is God who He is? These are questions that are impossible to answer. Only faith can guide you. But here's an idea! How about you just accept God, and live like He wants you to live. Then, if you're that reality of God does not come to pass, then you've still lived a meaningful and good life. But if you choose to ignore God, and He does in fact exist, then you're pretty much screwed, right? Now, i'm not suggesting that you love God just for the potential aspect of Heaven, but if you can get on the right track, then you're going to believe. So all you athiests out there, what if you're wrong? Are you going to spend eternity in Hell because you refused to love something you couldn't see, to believe in something, or to read a book? You can't see atoms or gravity, yet all of you believes they exist. We have no 'proof' that we landed on the moon, but you believe with all your heart that we did. And you've read books that have no positive influence on you, but you don't read one that will change your life? Why can't you believe with all your heart that God exists? That God created the Universe. Is this really a hard concept to grasp?

And by the way, I don't think anyone's mentioned antimatter yet... When antimatter touches antimatter, IT RESULTS IN A HUGH EXPLOSION THAT CREATES IMMENSE AMOUNTS OF MATTER. Sound familiar?

>hinky

Howabout you take your fantasy world over there and I'll take my real world over here. We'll keep the two completely seperated and see which world prospers the most.

I'm sick of Theological belief. "These are questions that are immpossible to answer. So you don't have all the answers either and you guys only made up your beliefs...

You want to know how religion was created. Some shit happened that people couln't explain, so they used their imagination. Demons spread the plague!

Well some years later people start using their brains and find out that poor hygene causes the plague and maybe people should stop rolling around in manuer.

Some more years later..."How did the universe get created? WE don't know some super awesome being did it!"

Some time in the future scientists will shatter that as they always have.

No, its not more sensible and obvious. Its just as sensible and obvious.
God.
No god.
No proof.
No proof.
Difference in opinion. Yes.

Or they might do, YOU don't know, so stop pretending you do and move on with your life

My last comment directed at luporum, feel free to attack my beliefs. If your willing to sift through all my comments.

No, its not more sensible and obvious. Its just as sensible and obvious.
God.
No god.
No proof.
No proof.
Difference in opinion. Yes.

Just as sensible as suggesting a supernatural being sat on his cloud and one day decided to make everything out of nothing?
ok...

SECOND NEPHI, CHAPTER TWO, VERSES 5-27.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not; there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

.

There are laws. There are scientific laws such as the law of gravity. There are the code of laws that makes up our legal systems.

Sin is a trickier concept. It connotes the presupposition that your particular code is the only correct one. Since that is patently not the case, as in places where the bible disagrees with both secular law and the laws of nature, sin is arbitrary based on the beliefs of the participants.

Righteousness is taken in this context to mean "following the laws we laid out here" and as such is another flawed idea. One can be right without being righteous.

I am QUITE happy not following your code. Happier, in fact, than when I did follow it. Happiness is particular to the individual, and not dependant in any way on your set of guidelines.

Without happiness and righteousness there is no punishment or misery. OK, I will take a pass on your brand of happiness and righteousness, and thereby live my life very satisfied in not being punished nor miserable. Sounds like a good trade off to me.

No punishment or misery leads to there being no God. An interesting theory, in that it means God is the reason for punishment and misery. That being the case, I will stick with no God, nor righteousness and happiness as you define them. Again, I am still ahead of the game.

The last point does not hold up. If no God (and we have just dismissed her) then we are not, neither the earth. Well, obviously we are here, so this point contradicts the rest of the passage.

What this does is prove that YOUR God does not exist. Thanks, I will hang on to this quote... it could be useful.

My last comment directed at luporum, feel free to attack my beliefs. If your willing to sift through all my comments.

I'm just going to sum my beliefs up into this...

I like religion when it teaches people to be "good". However, I dislike religion when people try to use it as a science book.

Scientists may not have all the answers, but they are working harder than anyone else to find them and in doing so they will expand the human race further than religion ever could.

Bilberries - They never suggested he sat on a cloud, they suggested he exists in plane of "reality" beyond our own.

But. Baby is born, has to have 2 parents right. Heat is there, had to be created by the sun.
Planets move, thats gravity, has to be created by large amounts of mass.
Maybe, everything needs a begining.

But maybe its all a load of crud, dreamed into existance by people asking questions to which they cannot fathom the answers?

I have no beliefs anymore, because in my life I've gained some, then lost them for others, gained some, then lost them. You can argue whatever point you want till your blue in the face, but YOU still personally do not know for certain, for there is still doubt in your mind as to what you know is right. And don't try and say that you know for certain there is or isn't a god. Cause its a damn lie, and you know it.

Luporum - Spot on man. I think the world does need faith, at least in something. Cause I mean, look at the places in the world without it, oh wait, there isn't any.
Your right, the bible and all holy books have good values. Its when humans currupt them to improve their quality of life above others that there is a problem. Religion is good. People bad.
The church misslead everyone into thinking they were going to hell if they didn't leave their land to them. BUT I mean, if you could, and could get away with it, you'd probably do the same thing. OR you wouldn't because your a genuinely decent person like me. The fact remains, any belief, can be argued, to any extent, without the slightest trace of proof, because where beliefs are concerned, there need be no proof, they are merely "beliefs" the big bang theory, it may hold high esteem in the science community, still has, little to no proof. They say it does, But that is just to stem the tide of religious clap trap that they are continuely bombarded with.
So in conlusion, maybe the point to life is to just find something that you believe in? ANYTHING. Cause a lot of people, believe a lot of different things, and you can say that their wrong, but then you'd be denying their expierance of life. And who are you to say your any better equiped then them to ponder the mysteries of life. I mean, I'm not. For all I know, you could be right. In fact, for all I know, the mormons could be right. The truth is, we won't know, until we die, or god does some grand act.

Does everyone agree, myself included, that we really do know nothing about the true nature of our existance ? (But we pretend we do because its easier to have answers then questions?)

All that was asked is how the Universe could exist without a God. You people refuse to answer the question! You go on about things like Newtonian physics, quoting the Bible, and pink flamingoes. Is that really relevant?

Things happened right? Whether or not God influenced the big bang it happened. That's doesn't mean it hasn't happened before, or that it was all planned out to happen this way as it did, but it happened. Now, if you believe that God didn't create the Universe, then what did? Was it just sitting there? Doing nothing? And if you believe that God did create the Universe, then why did He? And Why is God who He is? These are questions that are impossible to answer. Only faith can guide you. But here's an idea! How about you just accept God, and live like He wants you to live. Then, if you're that reality of God does not come to pass, then you've still lived a meaningful and good life. But if you choose to ignore God, and He does in fact exist, then you're pretty much screwed, right? Now, i'm not suggesting that you love God just for the potential aspect of Heaven, but if you can get on the right track, then you're going to believe. So all you athiests out there, what if you're wrong? Are you going to spend eternity in Hell because you refused to love something you couldn't see, to believe in something, or to read a book? You can't see atoms or gravity, yet all of you believes they exist. We have no 'proof' that we landed on the moon, but you believe with all your heart that we did. And you've read books that have no positive influence on you, but you don't read one that will change your life? Why can't you believe with all your heart that God exists? That God created the Universe. Is this really a hard concept to grasp?

And by the way, I don't think anyone's mentioned antimatter yet... When antimatter touches antimatter, IT RESULTS IN A HUGH EXPLOSION THAT CREATES IMMENSE AMOUNTS OF MATTER. Sound familiar?

>hinky

My main reason for not doing as you suggest is that I am not at all comfortable with some of the things your God apparently wants me to do and believe. I can, however, live a good and meaningful life without any nod to God at all, and am perfectly happy and satisfied doing so.

Newtonian physics and pink flamingos are all parts of the concepts that various of us here have about a universe that is not dependent on the existance of God. Much of the discussion as it has rambled on has had some interesting thoughts about that non-God universe, and why the posters believe it to be so. So, in fact, those things DO answer the question of how we think the universe could exist without God.

In my way of thinking, I only have 1 simple rule.
Do Not Inflict Negative Actions Upon Others.

And you can ask me what a "negative action " is, but honestly, you know already. And if you don't, why are you wasting space on "gods" or "not gods" clean earth?

This was infact, I rather informed debate to be honest, my hat goes off to all who took part. Congratulations people, its discussions like these, that may, one day, help provide peace on earth. Now if we can all just take what we've learned here, and adapt it to our understanding of the world, we might just get some fresh new ideas.
And remember everyone, respect everyone elses opinions and beliefs, though you might not share them, you might one day, and if you do, your gonna feel the fool more so then anyone.

So yeah anyone, drug of choice.
I mean any drug, from alcohol to XTC

Bilberries - They never suggested he sat on a cloud, they suggested he exists in plane of "reality" beyond our own.

But. Baby is born, has to have 2 parents right. Heat is there, had to be created by the sun.
Planets move, thats gravity, has to be created by large amounts of mass.
Maybe, everything needs a begining.

But maybe its all a load of crud, dreamed into existance by people asking questions to which they cannot fathom the answers?

I have no beliefs anymore, because in my life I've gained some, then lost them for others, gained some, then lost them. You can argue whatever point you want till your blue in the face, but YOU still personally do not know for certain, for there is still doubt in your mind as to what you know is right. And don't try and say that you know for certain there is or isn't a god. Cause its a damn lie, and you know it.


God is a matter of faith, with very little or no credible evidence to support his existence. Based on that, I can say I'm certain that there is no god. Its a nice idea, a nice story, but there just doesn't seem to be any reason why it would be true. And ok, so we can't fathom all the answers yet, but eventually science will get there.

So simple and so true. If YOU make a positive impact on the world, then what else matters? If, by the time you die, you've changed the world for the better, helped someone do the same, then you are a success.

>hinky

>>Apparently, you didn't see my last sentence. Two amounts of antimatter collided in space creating an explosion that sent matter across space. AKA the big bang. This is a disputibly valid theory, backed by scientific proof. If there was some collision of antimatter, the question is, how did it get there? and why was it moving, seeing as your precious 'laws' tell us that an object at rest tends to stay at rest? The most likely answer is that something put those there.

>hinky angain

So yeah anyone, drug of choice.
I mean any drug, from alcohol to XTC

You do seem bent on shutting down this debate, although I am not sure why as it seems to be one of the more civilized versions of this particular discussion that I have ever seen... but ok.

My drug of choice is life. I do things I love to do, and enjoy them to the point where I really don't need drugs to augment the feelings, and certainly don't want drugs to dull them.

Exactly, God, IS a matter of faith.

I'm just curious what Atheists think about this universe, going back before evolution and abiogenesis, to before the Big Bang. What do you think existed then? And before that? How could anything possibly exist? I honestly can't comprehend a universe without God. Please tell me what you think.

...Kinda scary how people can't conceptualize beyond what they are told (not refering to just the religious, but those with a 'scientific' point of view as well)
Though I can't give you a straight answer, sorry for that, but I also haven't thought on it much, once I come up with something (which, I haven't planned to do, though might in my free time...er something) I'll tell you.

I guess that would really depend upon your definition of Theism. hehehe
Well.. Perhaps, but I like to rely on established definitions. It makes communication easier ;)

Atheism is basically disbelief in 'personal' god(s). So what I quoted you for is in fact Atheism. Not only that, but it's also the original form of Atheism. The word came to use to describe just that kind of a-personal spiritual belief. Many a long-dead philisopher & scientist believed fiercely in this particular brand of Atheism.

I too, find it much less mindblowing. I can actually relate to this kind of thinking, and I can't deny the possibility, though applying the usual Occams Razor principle to reality, I find it almost as implausible as established religious veiws.

Normal religion, however, just boggles my mind completely. And I can't understand why people would believe it. To me it's like thinking there's magic sock monsters lurking everywhere.. Well not even that, because my socks do vanish into thin air on a regular basis, so at least there'd be some motivation for the sock monster idea.. Heh, I can't think of anything utterly impropable to use as an analogy right now, but hopefully you get the idea.


All that was asked is how the Universe could exist without a God. You people refuse to answer the question! You go on about things like Newtonian physics, quoting the Bible, and pink flamingoes. Is that really relevant?
It's already been 'answered' plenty of times. The point is, neither one of us can answer this question. We can say a lot about the current state of things, and quite a bit about how it evolved to this particular state, but we don't know anything at all about how or why it happened.

You say your God is the cause & the reason. Someone with a different religion makes the same claim.
Both of you claim your gods are actively intervening in things on a regular basis. At least that much we can say something about, and what we can say, is that it looks like you're wrong about that.

So.. If god wasn't required for anything we know about, why should we assume god was required to bring about the current state of things?

I think that's a highly unreasonable conclusion to jump to.

Upper botswavia - Very nice choice of drug, life is pretty damn sweet. I mean with life you've got happiness, love etc.

But uh, like any drug, life has its come downs. The best relationships, are like the best/strongest drugs, the better they are, the harder the come down.

Personally, my choice of drug would have to be : Pot, because its simple, you can't fight while stoned. However it does make you incridebly lazy, and stoners are rather boring cause all they do is sit around.
Alcohol, because well, its a laugh really, tastes good, makes you feel happy, means partys are a lot wilder because people lose their inhibitions.
Nicotine is not my favourite drug in any sense of the word, but I sure love to smoke.
And for high, the intense feelings of joy and happiness, XTC, not a habitual user honestly, only tried it a few times, but I saw it was pretty awesome. But a lot of my friends have become fucked up on it, taking like 10 hits every weekend, so its really shitty cause their shells of people. Moderations the key with anything in life.
Too much faith, it can't be changed, too little faith, and you feel alone.

Quoting the Bible is not proof. It's circular reasoning. You're saying god exists because you have a book you believe god wrote.
The bible is supposed to be taken figuritively. God didnt really take his omnipresent + omnescent hand and write down every page of the bible.




They gazed at God's Final Message:
The first letter was a "w", the second an "e". Then there was a gap. An "a" followed, then a "p", an "o" and an "l", then an "o" the "g", the "i", the "s" and the "e". The next two words were "for" and "the". The last one was a long one. It started with "i", then "n" then a "c". Next came an "o" and an "n" followed by a "v", an "e" and another "n" and an "i". He read the "e", the "n", the "c", and at last the final "e".

Exactly, God, IS a matter of faith.
But faith with no credible supporting evidence. Similar to believing the world is flat.
Anyway, its getting late and i'm off to bed....
goodnight all xxx

the similized world - I too share you belief in the sock monster, I mean, I've lost a shit load of socks, specially in the tumble dryer.
Has anyone seen the episode of dilbert where dogbert opens up an art shop next to the laundromate and frames loads of clothing that he steals from the dryers/washers?

I'm just curious what Atheists think about this universe, going back before evolution and abiogenesis, to before the Big Bang. What do you think existed then? And before that? How could anything possibly exist? I honestly can't comprehend a universe without God. Please tell me what you think.


We might just be a cosmic accident.

:)

Just a little thought to help you sleep at night.

Not to question your competance, or the theory of the world being round bilberries, but, I mean, ever been in space, ever actaully seen the world is round.
For all we know, tonight the starts could go out, and loads of tiny little light bulbs could fall to the earth around us. But I mean, I doubt it.

>>Apparently, you didn't see my last sentence. Two amounts of antimatter collided in space creating an explosion that sent matter across space. AKA the big bang. This is a disputibly valid theory, backed by scientific proof. If there was some collision of antimatter, the question is, how did it get there? and why was it moving, seeing as your precious 'laws' tell us that an object at rest tends to stay at rest? The most likely answer is that something put those there.

>hinky angain

That begs the question of where did that something come from, which takes us full circle back to the beginning of the discussion again.

I don't really know about this antimatter theory, so I can only guess at an answer for that part of it, sorry. As to it moving, well, I am not sure they are "my" precious laws, but the corollary is that a body in motion tends to stay in motion... so anything travelling through completely empty space (with no friction or gravity to act upon it) will do so for eternity until it bumps into something else. So the question becomes how is antimatter formed? One theory says the Big Bang happens over and over, the universe collapses and expands. Perhaps what it collapses into is a bit (or several bits) of antimatter, which go merrily on their way drifting through space until they meet up and BANG again?

And that doesn't answer where it came from any more than it did before, but perhaps it just always was.

actaully it was matter, making contact with anti-matter. But there you go.
(the difference in energy being so great that everything was formed into electrons and particles) ya know those things with negative charge, yeah, how weird is that?!

I'm going to enlighten you.

The Higgs Boson is an entirely theoretical particle. It may not exist. But it is the foundation of Inflationary Cosmology. Basically put, a particle is the smallest part of a field (just like an atom is the smallest unit of any element). And the theory is that a Higgs Field permeates the universe. The cosmological theory states that when it's really hot (hotter than the sun hot) this field's fluctuating value can hit a certain plateau, and if it does it in a sufficiently large area (I say large, but the area is miniscule), and that area is filled with sufficiently dense matter (10^30 or greater, I believe) it can be the "bang" of the big bang. The bang would actually stretch space itself out, causing that miniscule area that the field was in to grow. A lot.

Also importantly, when it hit that certain plateau, it stayed there. This means that the field has a non-zero value. OK, why does that matter? Well, it means that there's something there. And since this thing hit that value at the point that eventually became our universe, that non-zero value is everywhere. And since that non-zero value was the same everywhere then, it would be now.

OK, that was a very important point. Since the field would be ubiquitous and have the same value everywhere, it would mean that there would be a nearly perfectly uniform "sea" of Higgs Bosons. The important part is that, if this thing is right, the Higgs Bosons would be what cause things like mass and inertia. The drag on a boat by the sea or on a plane's wing in the air are analogous. So mass would just be the "drag" of particles against the "sea" of Higgs particles. And inertia fits in there somehow too, I just forget how.

Now, think about that for a second. How amazing it it? I have to say very. It's not like we're talking some weird abstract thing here. This is the creation of the universe AND the phenomena of mass (a phenomena so apparent that we take it for granted. But why should anything have mass?) explained in one fell swoop. I find that remarkable. And who knows? These things could do more.

Now, I've stated that this all theoretical. Hopefully in 2007 when the Large Haldron Collider comes online at CERN we will find them, many scientists hope that we will, and the scientific community is very excited about it.

But this is the leading theory, and we have no reason to believe that it is wrong. But again, your point is valid, "where did that matter come from?" We don't know right now. But M-Theory (also known as string theory, or, more correctly, super-string theory) has the potential to explain it. In my eyes, it is easier to believe that some innate matter existed without cause than an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent deity. I happen to be a proponent of Occam's Razor (the simplest explanation is the most likely), but that's just my opinion.



If you want a more detailed account, get The Fabric of the Cosmos by Brian Greene, or any book on Inflationary Cosmology. The theory doesn't explain everything, but it does offer and explanation that isn't "Turtles all the way down."

Seleucid Poleis - That theory, is just another mans point of view.
Seriously, if you really want me to i can find you a load of evidence on my giant pink flamingo theory.

ah damn it, the pizza boys in my country are on strike.

You remember that existence of God thing I had so much trouble understanding? Well, guess what. I think I'm starting to grasp it now. Here's my theory: Maybe, just maybe, it's a concept that's similar to a zero in mathematics. In other words it's a symbol that denies the absence of meaning. The meaning that's necessitated by the delineation of one system to another. In analog, that's God, in digital, it's zero...
-Ghost in the Shell, Stand Alone Complex

Well played, my brother got that on dvd a while ago, said it had some good points about things. So does 24 (awesome series)

"a 2nd chance is partly about accepting responsibility for the mess you made in the first place"

but anyhow, I must sleep, night all.

They gazed at God's Final Message:
The first letter was a "w", the second an "e". Then there was a gap. An "a" followed, then a "p", an "o" and an "l", then an "o" the "g", the "i", the "s" and the "e". The next two words were "for" and "the". The last one was a long one. It started with "i", then "n" then a "c". Next came an "o" and an "n" followed by a "v", an "e" and another "n" and an "i". He read the "e", the "n", the "c", and at last the final "e".
Good old Douglas Adams didn't live in vain. But this disproves God completely. If God was real, and a good guy, there's no way he'd have done away with Douglas at the age of 42 :mad:

"or maybe it was all part of his grand plan" (before someone who actaully believes that sez it.

But faith with no credible supporting evidence. Similar to believing the world is flat.
Anyway, its getting late and i'm off to bed....
goodnight all xxx

Faith has supporting evidence, oh does it!

Objects and artifacts such as the james ossuary, the chaiapus ossuary, the cities of jerusleum and the philistine cities. The bula that they found that contains the fingerprint of the scribe of jerimaih(sp?)

I can cite a ton of more evidence if you wish me to.

...But this is the leading theory, and we have no reason to believe that it is wrong. But again, your point is valid, "where did that matter come from?" We don't know right now. But M-Theory (also known as string theory, or, more correctly, super-string theory) has the potential to explain it. In my eyes, it is easier to believe that some innate matter existed without cause than an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent deity. I happen to be a proponent of Occam's Razor (the simplest explanation is the most likely), but that's just my opinion...





Wow! I think I got most of that, but will put it on my "big list of things to read more about".

I actually mentioned Occam's Razor earlier today on another thread (I think?), and it is a theory I am fond of as well.

Faith has supporting evidence, oh does it!

Objects and artifacts such as the james ossuary, the chaiapus ossuary, the cities of jerusleum and the philistine cities. The bula that they found that contains the fingerprint of the scribe of jerimaih(sp?)

I can cite a ton of more evidence if you wish me to.
Uhm... Exactly how is that evidence?
It's like saying the city of Tronheim(sp?) is evidence for Norse Mythos... Or that Mount Olympos is evidence for Zeus & the raggedy band of Titans, innit?

By that line of thinking, isn't the bible itself just as much proof of it's authenticity? Or the following "There's no god" evidence?

Faith has supporting evidence, oh does it!

Objects and artifacts such as the james ossuary, the chaiapus ossuary, the cities of jerusleum and the philistine cities. The bula that they found that contains the fingerprint of the scribe of jerimaih(sp?)

I can cite a ton of more evidence if you wish me to.

Of what are those things evidence? That a guy calling himself Jesus of Nazareth actually existed? That is all well and good, but it has no bearing on the issue of faith. If, in fact, such a man did walk around preaching, his existance does not prove God any more than yours or mine does... much as the existance of the bible does not prove anything more than the fact that at some time somebody wrote some things down.

<Snip>
Hehe, beat you to it :p

I'm just curious what Atheists think about this universe, going back before evolution and abiogenesis, to before the Big Bang. What do you think existed then? And before that? How could anything possibly exist? I honestly can't comprehend a universe without God. Please tell me what you think.
I see a red door and I want it painted black
No colors anymore I want them to turn black
I see the girls walk by dressed in their summer clothes
I have to turn my head until my darkness goes
I see a line of cars and they’re all painted black
With flowers and my love both never to come back
I see people turn their heads and quickly look away
Like a new born baby it just happens ev’ry day
I look inside myself and see my heart is black
I see my red door and it has been painted black
Maybe then I’ll fade away and not have to face the facts
It’s not easy facin’ up when your whole world is black

No more will my green sea go turn a deeper blue
I could not foresee this thing happening to you
If I look hard enough into the settin’ sun
My love will laugh with me before the mornin’ comes

I see a red door and I want it painted black
No colors anymore I want them to turn black
I see the girls walk by dressed in their summer clothes
I have to turn my head until my darkness goes
Hmm, hmm, hmm,...
I wanna see it painted, painted black
Black as night, black as coal
I wanna see the sun blotted out from the sky
I wanna see it painted, painted, painted, painted black
Yeah!

Hehe, beat you to it :p

You did! And we hit the same points, even! Wow, coincidences like that don't just happen. This must prove that God exists. :D

You did! And we hit the same points, even! Wow, coincidences like that don't just happen. This must prove that God exists. :D
Haha! You're right! Let's give praise to the almighty bloody mary for doing such a bloody good job of it all :fluffle:

You go ahead and praise a bloody mary, but make mine a gin and tonic, please! ;)

In the near future-corporate networks reach out to the stars. Electrons and light flow throughout the universe.
The advance of computerisation, however, has not yet wiped out nations and ethnic groups.

Puppet Master: A copy is just an identical image. There is the possibility that a single virus could destroy an entire set of systems and copies do not give rise to variety and originality. Life perpetuates itself through diversity and this includes the ability to sacrifice itself when necessary. Cells repeat the process of degeneration and regeneration until one day they die, obliterating an entire set of memory and information, only genes remain. Why continually repeat this cycle? Simply to survive by avoiding the weaknesses of an unchanging system.

[last lines]
Major Motoko Kusanagi: I wonder where I'll go now. The net is vast and infinite.

Puppet Master: Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you.

Puppet Master: It can also be argued that DNA is nothing more than a program designed to preserve itself. Life has become more complex in the overwhelming sea of information. And life, when organized into species, relies upon genes to be its memory system. So, man is an individual only because of his intangible memory... and memory cannot be defined, but it defines mankind.

Major Motoko Kusanagi: If we all reacted the same way, we'd be predictable, and there's always more than one way to view a situation. What's true for the group is also true for the individual. It's simple: Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness. It's slow death.

Major Motoko Kusanagi: If a technological feat is possible, man will do it. Almost as if it's wired into the core of our being.

Batô: There's nothing sadder than a puppet without a ghost, especially the kind with red blood running through them.
-Ghost in the Shell

[first title cards]: In a future time when most human thought has been accelerated by artificial intelligence and external memory can be shared on a universal matrix, Batou, an agent of the elite Section 9 Security Force and a being so artificially modified as to be essentially cyborg, is assigned, along with his mostly human partner, Togusa, to investigate a series of gruesome murders.

Togusa: How great is the sum of thy thoughts? If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand.
Bateau: Psalms 139, Old Testament. The way you spout these spontaneous exotic references, I'd say your own external memory's pretty twisted.

Togusa: His legions, angel forms, who lay entranced. Thick as autumnal leaves that strow the brooks.
Bateau: Now you're quoting Milton, but we are not Satan.


Lin: We got loyalty even in my line.
Bateau: There's loyalty that protects secrets and loyalty that projects the truth. You cannot serve both masters, so which loyalty is yours?
-host in the Shell 2: Innocence

Luporum - Spot on man. I think the world does need faith, at least in something. Cause I mean, look at the places in the world without it, oh wait, there isn't any.
Your right, the bible and all holy books have good values. Its when humans currupt them to improve their quality of life above others that there is a problem. Religion is good. People bad.
The church misslead everyone into thinking they were going to hell if they didn't leave their land to them. BUT I mean, if you could, and could get away with it, you'd probably do the same thing. OR you wouldn't because your a genuinely decent person like me. The fact remains, any belief, can be argued, to any extent, without the slightest trace of proof, because where beliefs are concerned, there need be no proof, they are merely "beliefs" the big bang theory, it may hold high esteem in the science community, still has, little to no proof. They say it does, But that is just to stem the tide of religious clap trap that they are continuely bombarded with.
So in conlusion, maybe the point to life is to just find something that you believe in? ANYTHING. Cause a lot of people, believe a lot of different things, and you can say that their wrong, but then you'd be denying their expierance of life. And who are you to say your any better equiped then them to ponder the mysteries of life. I mean, I'm not. For all I know, you could be right. In fact, for all I know, the mormons could be right. The truth is, we won't know, until we die, or god does some grand act.

Does everyone agree, myself included, that we really do know nothing about the true nature of our existance ? (But we pretend we do because its easier to have answers then questions?)

Actually the Big Bang has a good amount of evidence backing it. There was a thread not to long ago about this, I'll look for it.

We all believe in something that validates our existance, and that's good because otherwise we'd all just commit suicide or stop having children. Religion that gives people hope is great, but when perverted it's used to manipulate. Most people arn't responsible enough to properly follow religion faithfully anymore.

people shouldnt be told what is the right or wrong way to live. I think people should be given suggestions as to why some things are good or bad ways of acting and encouraged to think for themselves as to how live their lives and all that jazz.

I can't support any religion but I support spirituality. religion is like an excuse to control others or look down on others for not thinking the way they think, but spirituality can be personal and unique to each and every person. I guess religion can too but its still so generic and it just makes me feel gross, I've never liked Church or being told what i needed to do to get into good graces with the supreme being or whatever.

I think people with different spiritual beliefs can learn alot more from each other if everyone realizes that their beliefs have meaning mainly for themselves and doesn't need to mean anything to anyone else.

sorry about my incoherent rambling. I'm drinking :D

Nice one, but that still doesn't explain why 1 of my socks always seems to go missing from the dryer everyday.

If you believe whole-heartedly in the big bang, there is no question of what happened before because there is no distinct before. according to the most common speculations concerning the big bang (and my ignorant interpretation of them :) ), the idea is that space time and the laws of physics/junk break down before the 'beginning'. Asking 'what happened before' is useless as the big bang implies that there was no such thing as time to create a before.

I'm agnostic.

@God007 : Even if I witnessed Jesus rising from the dead, I still wouldn't call him my savior.

I'm just curious what Atheists think about this universe, going back before evolution and abiogenesis, to before the Big Bang. What do you think existed then? And before that? How could anything possibly exist? I honestly can't comprehend a universe without God. Please tell me what you think.
there's no telling, because all history of the universe before was erased if there had been such a thing as the Big Bang (it's all a theory)

Yeah but I mean, you personally have nothing to disprove my theory of "Giant pink flamingo " creation. And not having anything to disprove something, is the basis of cristianity.

Now I must tell a story, it can be found in Alma, chapter 30.

6 But it came to pass in the latter end of the... year, there came a man into the land ... and he was Anti-Christ, for he began to preach unto the people against the prophecies which had been spoken by the prophets, concerning the coming of Christ.

7 Now there was no law against a man’s belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds.

8 For thus saith the scripture: Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve.

9 Now if a man desired to serve God, it was his privilege; or rather, if he believed in God it was his privilege to serve him; but if he did not believe in him there was no law to punish him.

10 But if he murdered he was punished unto death; and if he robbed he was also punished; and if he stole he was also punished; and if he committed adultery he was also punished; yea, for all this wickedness they were punished.

11 ]For there was a law that men should be judged according to their crimes. Nevertheless, there was no law against a man’s belief; therefore, a man was punished only for the crimes which he had done; therefore all men were on equal grounds[/B].

12 And this Anti-Christ, whose name was Korihor, (and the law could have no hold upon him) began to preach unto the people that there should be no Christ. And after this manner did he preach, saying:

13 O ye that are bound down under a foolish and a vain hope, why do ye yoke yourselves with such foolish things? Why do ye look for a Christ? For no man can know of anything which is to come.

14 Behold, these things which ye call prophecies, which ye say are handed down by holy prophets, behold, they are foolish traditions of your fathers.

15 How do ye know of their surety? Behold, ye cannot know of things which ye do not see; therefore ye cannot know that there shall be a Christ.

16 Ye look forward and say that ye see a remission of your sins. But behold, it is the effect of a frenzied mind; and this derangement of your minds comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so.

17 And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime.

18 And thus he did preach unto them, leading away the hearts of many, causing them to lift up their heads in their wickedness, yea, leading away many women, and also men, to commit whoredoms—telling them that when a man was dead, that was the end thereof.

19 Now this man went over to the land of Jershon also, to preach these things among the people of Ammon, who were once the .

20 But behold they were more wise than many of the [the people mentioned first]; for they took him, and bound him, and carried him before [their leader], who was a high priest over that people.

21 And it came to pass that he caused that he should be carried out of the land. And he came over into the land of Gideon, and began to preach unto them also; and here he did not have much success, for he was taken and bound and carried before the high priest, and also the chief judge over the land.

22 And it came to pass that the high priest said unto him: Why do ye go about perverting the ways of the Lord? Why do ye teach this people that there shall be no Christ, to interrupt their rejoicings? Why do ye speak against all the prophecies of the holy prophets?

23 Now the high priest’s name was Giddonah. And Korihor said unto him: Because I do not teach the foolish traditions of your fathers, and because I do not teach this people to bind themselves down under the foolish ordinances and performances which are laid down by ancient priests, to usurp power and authority over them, to keep them in ignorance, that they may not lift up their heads, but be brought down according to thy words.

24 Ye say that this people is a free people. Behold, I say they are in bondage. Ye say that those ancient prophecies are true. Behold, I say that ye do not know that they are true....

...26 And ye also say that Christ shall come. But behold, I say that ye do not know that there shall be a Christ. And ye say also that he shall be slain for the sins of the world—

27 And thus ye lead away this people after the foolish traditions of your fathers, and according to your own desires; and ye keep them down, even as it were in bondage, that ye may glut yourselves with the labors of their hands, that they durst not look up with boldness, and that they durst not enjoy their rights and privileges.

28 Yea, they durst not make use of that which is their own lest they should offend their priests, who do yoke them according to their desires, and have brought them to believe, by their traditions and their dreams and their whims and their visions and their pretended mysteries, that they should, if they did not do according to their words, offend some unknown being, who they say is God—a being who never has been seen or known, who never was nor ever will be.

29 Now when the high priest and the chief judge saw the hardness of his heart, yea, when they saw that he would revile even against God, they would not make any reply to his words; but they caused that he should be bound; and they delivered him up into the hands of the officers, and sent him to the [capital city of the land], that he might be brought before Alma [the High Priest over the Church], and the chief judge who was governor over all the land.

30 And it came to pass that when he was brought before Alma and the chief judge, he did go on in the same manner as he did in the land of Gideon; yea, he went on to blaspheme.

31 And he did rise up in great swelling words before Alma, and did revile against the priests and teachers, accusing them of leading away the people after the silly traditions of their fathers, for the sake of glutting on the labors of the people.

32 Now Alma said unto him: Thou knowest that we do not glut ourselves upon the labors of this people; for behold I have labored even from the commencement of the reign of the judges until now, with mine own hands for my support, notwithstanding my many travels round about the land to declare the word of God unto my people.

33 And notwithstanding the many labors which I have performed in the church, I have never received so much as even one [penny] for my labor; neither has any of my brethren, save it were in the judgment-seat [as civil leaders]; and then we have received only according to law for our time.

34 And now, if we do not receive anything for our labors in the church, what doth it profit us to labor in the church save it were to declare the truth, that we may have rejoicings in the joy of our brethren?

35 Then why sayest thou that we preach unto this people to get gain, when thou, of thyself, knowest that we receive no gain? And now, believest thou that we deceive this people, that causes such joy in their hearts?

36 And Korihor answered him, Yea.

37 And then Alma said unto him: Believest thou that there is a God?

38 And he answered, Nay.

39 Now Alma said unto him: Will ye deny again that there is a God, and also deny the Christ? For behold, I say unto you, I know there is a God, and also that Christ shall come.

40 And now what evidence have ye that there is no God, or that Christ cometh not? I say unto you that ye have none, save it be your word only.

41 But, behold, I have all things as a atestimony that these things are true; and ye also have all things as a testimony unto you that they are true; and will ye deny them? Believest thou that these things are true?...

...43 And now Korihor said unto Alma: If thou wilt show me a sign, that I may be convinced that there is a God, yea, show unto me that he hath power, and then will I be convinced of the truth of thy words.

44 But Alma said unto him: [B]Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.

45 And yet do ye go about, leading away the hearts of this people, testifying unto them there is no God? And yet will ye deny against all these awitnesses? And he said: Yea, I will deny, except ye shall show me a sign.

46 And now it came to pass that Alma said unto him: Behold, I am grieved because of the hardness of your heart, yea, that ye will still resist the spirit of the truth, that thy soul may be destroyed.

47 But behold, it is better that thy soul should be lost than that thou shouldst be the means of bringing many souls down to destruction, by thy lying and by thy flattering words; therefore if thou shalt deny again, behold God shall smite thee, that thou shalt become dumb, that thou shalt never open thy mouth any more, that thou shalt not deceive this people any more.

48 Now Korihor said unto him: I do not deny the existence of a God, but I do not believe that there is a God; and I say also, that ye do not know that there is a God; and except ye show me a sign, I will not believe.

49 Now Alma said unto him: This will I give unto thee for a sign, that thou shalt be astruck• dumb, according to my words; and I say, that in the name of God, ye shall be struck dumb, that ye shall no more have utterance.

50 Now when Alma had said these words, Korihor was struck dumb, that he could not have utterance, according to the words of Alma.

51 And now when the chief judge saw this, he put forth his hand and wrote unto Korihor, saying: Art thou convinced of the power of God? In whom did ye desire that Alma should show forth his sign? Would ye that he should afflict others, to show unto thee a sign? Behold, he has showed unto you a sign; and now will ye dispute more?

52 And Korihor put forth his hand and wrote, saying: I know that I am dumb, for I cannot speak; and I know that nothing save it were the power of God could bring this upon me; yea, and I always knew that there was a God...

...54 Now when he had said this, [Korihor] besought that Alma should pray unto God, that the curse might be taken from him.

55 But Alma said unto him: If this curse should be taken from thee thou wouldst again lead away the hearts of this people; therefore, it shall be unto thee even as the Lord will.

56 And it came to pass that the curse was not taken off of Korihor; but he was cast out, and went about from house to house begging for his food.

57 Now the knowledge of what had happened unto Korihor was immediately published throughout all the land; yea, the proclamation was sent forth by the chief judge to all the people in the land, declaring unto those who had believed in the words of Korihor that they must speedily repent, lest the same judgments would come unto them.

58 And it came to pass that they were all convinced of the wickedness of Korihor; therefore they were all converted again unto the Lord; and this put an end to the iniquity after the manner of Korihor. And Korihor did go about from house to house, begging food for his support.

59 And it came to pass that as he went forth among [other] people, yea, among a people who had separated themselves... and as he went forth amongst them, behold, he was run upon and trodden down, even until he was dead.

60 And thus we see the end of him who perverteth the ways of the Lord; and thus we see that the devil will not support his children at the last day, but doth speedily drag them down to hell.

To the post above:

I don't think anyone here who is speaking in the name of science is denouncing god or trying to persuade anyone likewise. Just because we view the universe in a different manner doesn't make us supporters of the anti-christ.

If Even if I witnessed Jesus rising from the dead, I still wouldn't call him my savior.

I have a few things to say on this:

(a) savior isn't spelt like that. (eg, He is my saviour!! ) :mad:

(b) I agree slightly - you have no reason to say "Wow, you're my saviour!" in other words, "Thanks for rescuing me!" if you have just seen someone come back to life. He is called a saviour because he saved the people who follow him by inviting them over for dinner (ie into heaven) and I quote: "He gave his one and only son so that those who follow him won't perish but have eternal life." That translates as: "God gave up his only Son he loved very much just so that we little people down here who think that's OK don't get sent to Hell."

Which is fine by me.
:cool:


(c) I've just realised this is pointless because people can only become Christians with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Oh well. I pray for you all. :)

Don't ever say any of that holy spirit b/s to me. EVER. I don't believe it, so don't force your beliefs upon me.

I respect your views, but keep YOUR god away from me.

Of course humans can't comprehend. We're stupid. Look at the chat in online games. "OMFG lol u liek haxxor lol omfg u gay i will haxxor u cuz u sux lolol im so leet lol u noob lol give me free stuff now"