NationStates Jolt Archive

Here's a conversation (well, it's kinda one sided) I just had on AIM. Please do me and my friend a favor and don't add us to your buddy list, ok?

Anyway, here it is. I'm PunkMonkAZTF.

PunkMonkAZTF: I wonder if higher gas prices will finally lead to the proletariat revolution.
Misterfido: Nah, America's too apathetic
PunkMonkAZTF: All these minimum wage workers need to work a day and a half to fill their car tanks. Their pay isn't rising at a rate to commiserate with gas prices. People are going to be pissed off.
PunkMonkAZTF: And america isn't apathetic at all.
PunkMonkAZTF: You see, everyone is focused and involved.
PunkMonkAZTF: Okay, here's how it works. You and I, and all the other not rich people, at least in this instance, we're the proletariat.
PunkMonkAZTF: Now, we can't become plutocrats. But the Plutocrats will svery rarely find a proletariat (rapper) and make him into a plutocrat (rich rapper) so all the proletariat thinks that they can become rich (become rappers) too.
PunkMonkAZTF: And then we get very interested in the lives of these plutocrats and we watch their T.V. shows and movies and buy lots of things that don't really matter, and we try for goals that aren't critical, like becoming rappers.
PunkMonkAZTF: And then we're too docile to act and throw a communist revolution.
PunkMonkAZTF: That is why you never talk to dogs.
Misterfido: Heh
(rappers is just an example. Please don't bring it up, because that's not the point.)

So, I'm not saying OMG TEH COMMIES!!!!111one, or "Ha ha! The red revolutoin is finally at hand! Death to the capitalist pigs!!" but rather that something like the ridiculous gas prices could de-docilize (I just made that word up) the lower class and maybe move some of them to militant action. Especially if measures aren't taken in the long term to keep us from getting too pissed off.
This is all speculation, and I'm not an expert in sociology. It's just something I've been wondering for a little while.

Now, my point of view is tempered from living in Maine, where we have long distances to traverse daily and cold winters to deal with, and oil is extremely important. I agree that we need alternative sources of energy, but loads of people aren't going to suddenly get hybrid cars. I live in a very poor town. We only have two buisnesses of note, and just about everyone works in other towns. Now, there are some people who have reached a point where the commute is almost as much as a day's work, and we don't have enough money to move or buy hybrid cars and there's no need for employees closer to home. You need to realize that most solutions aren't feasible with such high gas prices. Our rate of pay can't keep up with the soon to be rising costs of just about everything.

I'm not like Lyric, blaming the oil companies, but just stating that the situation is very complicated. We can't "move" or buy hybrid cars, and the "long term solutions" would take too long. And as far as I can see it, there's no short term solutions either.

Now, this is mostly an explanation of the problem and I don't have any answers to give. The way I see it, there are no answers. If gas prices stay the way they are, the general store in my town (and others, I'd assume) won't be able to get their products at the same price. We won't be able to afford to shop there, because so much is going to gas. We'll also stop going to the resturant in town, because we can't afford to eat out. The places we work might start getting less buisness, and won't be able to pay us as much. It's a vicious circle, and yes, it would even out eventually. But maybe not before small buisnesses are killed off and towns essentially gutted and forced to shop and work at big buisnesses like Wal-Mart, or eat out at franchise resturants. If we can even afford that. I'm not suggesting conspiracy. I think this is just the way it's going.

Esh. There's my say. If someone else starts a debate I'll probably go with it.

*Adds your names to Buddy List!!11!!1*

Ahahahaha!

Your meager pleas not to do so fall on deaf ears! DEAF EARS, do you hear me?! DEAF!

Ha. Who am I kiddin'. :p

*Adds your names to Buddy List!!11!!1*

Ahahahaha!

Your meager pleas not to do so fall on deaf ears! DEAF EARS, do you hear me?! DEAF!

Ha. Who am I kiddin'. :p

Actually, I don't mind so much, as long as you actually tell me so I can see you too. But my friend would probably talk to me in a couple days to ask why the hell people are talking to him.

EDIT: Eh. New thing. The war in Iraq, maybe it was for oil, maybe it wasn't, but they're pretty much our puppet state now and they're oil rich, so when is that oil gonna get over here, anyway?

The rise in gas prices won't cause this. However, the possible depression caused by a seriously lagging economy and a loss of investor confidence due our massive debt, could cause riots to occur.

The rise in gas prices won't cause this. However, the possible depression caused by a seriously lagging economy and a loss of investor confidence due our massive debt, could cause riots to occur.

Our economy is hurting, and with the shipping industry crippled from lack of oil, it'll be that much worse. Gas prices are more of a catalyst, instead of a cause. If you put a frog in hot water, it jumps out. But if you put a frog in cool water and heat it up, the frog will just sit there until it dies. (Or, that's how the saying goes. I've never actually tried this) That situation is similar to the one we're in now. If things were getting slowly worse and worse, we're less likely to act. But if things are bad from the start, then people will do something drastic.

Proletriat revolution? How is that going to work if they "can't" even afford to buy basic stuff?

I'm content with gas prices right now. I have a BIG BIG barrel in my garage filled to the brim with diesel.

I've got enough to go about 4-5 months depending on how much I drive.

EDIT: Eh. New thing. The war in Iraq, maybe it was for oil, maybe it wasn't, but they're pretty much our puppet state now and they're oil rich, so when is that oil gonna get over here, anyway?

When did they become our puppet state? They seem to be busy blowing up each other and Americans to notice that they have control. We definitely aren't in control of that country.

We will see a decline in gas prices when GWB gets out office. Hopefully....

Our economy is hurting, and with the shipping industry crippled from lack of oil, it'll be that much worse. Gas prices are more of a catalyst, instead of a cause. If you put a frog in hot water, it jumps out. But if you put a frog in cool water and heat it up, the frog will just sit there until it dies. (Or, that's how the saying goes. I've never actually tried this) That situation is similar to the one we're in now. If things were getting slowly worse and worse, we're less likely to act. But if things are bad from the start, then people will do something drastic.
Yeah... massive political change usually ony comes about in the face of some sort of massive social/political crisis. You know, war, famine, zombies... While I'm a big fan of change I don't think I need to invent a banner and dust off my shotgun quite yet. I think that if anything is going to happen as a result of all of this, it will be a fizzling collapse instead of a massive upheaval and assertion of the will of the people. Its not that we, as Americans don't care, its that we have never had to face down that looming spectre of destruction. The political tension is building too slowly.

It's so nice to finally hear some else thinking along these lines....the rising costs of transport (and thus of just about everything) might well trigger the mass action that so many people wish for, to topple the smugness of what is quickly becoming a wasteful and moraly corrupt way of 'running the world'.....we live in hope that this coming crisis might well spur 'the man on the street' into taking a closer look at the idiocy that has caused us to be so dependant on goods from the other side of the world (when almost everywhere it is possible for men to live well using the resources locally available). Is all common sense really....

Proletriat revolution? How is that going to work if they "can't" even afford to buy basic stuff?

I'm content with gas prices right now. I have a BIG BIG barrel in my garage filled to the brim with diesel.

I've got enough to go about 4-5 months depending on how much I drive.

If they can't afford basic things, they'll start to take it. People don't usually just roll over and starve to death if they don't have money. And winter is on its way, so no growing food.

And excuse me, but whoopdidy-doo for you. Are you the entire country? Not everyone has a big big barrel in their garage filled to the brim. In fact, most of the people I know don't have much in their car tanks.

People, you aren't a proletariat just by being "not rich." Try living in brutal serfdom in early 20th century Russia before giving yourself airs of being the oppressed poor.

The rise in gas prices won't cause this. However, the possible depression caused by a seriously lagging economy and a loss of investor confidence due our massive debt, could cause riots to occur.

the economy is just fine... and people need to realize it and invest. no sense in investors causing a correction when there's no reason for one.

nobody gives a crap about debt. our economy was robust as hell in the 1980s and we had debt out the wazoo. it's negative talk like this that leads to low investor confidence.

People, you aren't a proletariat just by being "not rich." Try living in brutal serfdom in early 20th century Russia before giving yourself airs of being the oppressed poor.

great thing about america is... if there ever were one, all we'd have to do is call them communists and they'd go back home. Even when a person has natural socialist tendencies ("your wealth should belong to me..."), you whisper the C word and they saunter back with words like, "Oh, well, i hate communism."

Now if only these people would have someone explain to them that redistribution of wealth is socialism, and the socialism is the economic system of Communism...

When did they become our puppet state? They seem to be busy blowing up each other and Americans to notice that they have control. We definitely aren't in control of that country.

We will see a decline in gas prices when GWB gets out office. Hopefully....

I was under the impression that we had most of the oil production facilities in Iraq under control, at least. Of course, transporting it might be a different story.

And for the second point, I agree wholeheartedly.

People, you aren't a proletariat just by being "not rich." Try living in brutal serfdom in early 20th century Russia before giving yourself airs of being the oppressed poor.

Try eating nothing but spegettios every other day, supplementing foods you grow yourself. There's a new proletariat, and it's the people who live in crappy old houses with crappy old cars and work in tire warehouses. Also, to completely moot this point and yours,

PunkMonkAZTF: Okay, here's how it works. You and I, and all the other not rich people, at least in this instance, we're the proletariat.

There. It's the point, not the direct meaning of the word. We (at least, me and the people in my town) are working class. Maybe not the lowest, but we are near the bottom.

If by "the proletariat" you mean the morons currently inhabiting New Orleans, the prospect of a dictatorship of such barbarians is enough to make me oil up the rifle in anticipation of reducing the proletariat population.

The only good commie is an ex-commie.

However that's accomplished.

You could substitute fascist in that statement, too.

Even when a person has natural socialist tendencies ("your wealth should belong to me..."),
Please explain how that's socialism.

Oh, and I'd be just fine with communism, if it was feasible.



Sorry if this is a double post, also. I'm just expecting someone else to slip in with another reply.

I was under the impression that we had most of the oil production facilities in Iraq under control, at least. Of course, transporting it might be a different story.

And for the second point, I agree wholeheartedly.

People, you aren't a proletariat just by being "not rich." Try living in brutal serfdom in early 20th century Russia before giving yourself airs of being the oppressed poor.

Try eating nothing but spegettios every other day, supplementing foods you grow yourself. There's a new proletariat, and it's the people who live in crappy old houses with crappy old cars and work in tire warehouses. Also, to completely moot this point and yours,

PunkMonkAZTF: Okay, here's how it works. You and I, and all the other not rich people, at least in this instance, we're the proletariat.

There. It's the point, not the direct meaning of the word. We (at least, me and the people in my town) are working class. Maybe not the lowest, but we are near the bottom.


Nope, when we invaded we promised that the oil in Iraq would be under the control of the owners of the facilities prior to the invasion. Bush did this to make it seem like it wasn't an oil scheme.

Unfortunately that idea back fired and these controlling entities got tired of the US hanging about, so they raised prices as a threat...and have continued doing so as long as we pay.

As far a proleteriat...Some people who call themselves such choose to live the beleagured lifestyle. To them I say, you are suffering by choice, the revolution will not be televised.

No one on this forum is proleteriat. They obviously have computer access which is a luxury many people only dream of.

If by "the proletariat" you mean the morons currently inhabiting New Orleans, the prospect of a dictatorship of such barbarians is enough to make me oil up the rifle in anticipation of reducing the proletariat population.

The only good commie is an ex-commie.

However that's accomplished.

You could substitute fascist in that statement, too.

No, I mean the poor people who might soon be out of gas and money, fighting each other and maybe even robbing stores and so on.

Hmm. Communism was implied, and yeah, the communist revolution thing, but I'd expect some sort of anarchic riots, the more I think about it.

Thats real funny, since most of you and the western world are middle class and not proles. Dialectical Marxism no longer applies to developed countries.Communism is dying, liberalism is succeding. I've rejected the far left, once I realised what a bunch of naive and ignorant fools communists generally are.

Any excuse for a good revolution

Umm, no. Not going to happen, people won't become militant because of gas prices. Sorry.

Beyond that, the current rise in gas prices is related to the fact that the US lost perhaps 24% of it's total refining capacity. Which should theoretically translate to a 24% decrease in supply, and a 24% increase in price.

In fact, where I live, the price increase if far below twenty percent, making it perhaps 15% increase in prices.

Thats real funny, since most of you and the western world are middle class and not proles. Dialectical Marxism no longer applies to developed countries.Communism is dying, liberalism is succeding. I've rejected the far left, once I realised what a bunch of naive and ignorant fools communists generally are.

Incorrect;

The vast majority of people in developed countries do not own businesses. While their real wages and living conditions have improved, most people are not bourgeoisie and are still under the thumb of their employers. Workers in the developed world are still proletarians...albeit well paid ones, in comparison with the rest of the world.

Though I would argue that in the age of globalisation we are developing a global class system...but that's another topic.

The only good commie is an ex-commie.

However that's accomplished.

So shoot me.

Nope, when we invaded we promised that the oil in Iraq would be under the control of the owners of the facilities prior to the invasion. Bush did this to make it seem like it wasn't an oil scheme.

Unfortunately that idea back fired and these controlling entities got tired of the US hanging about, so they raised prices as a threat...and have continued doing so as long as we pay.

As far a proleteriat...Some people who call themselves such choose to live the beleagured lifestyle. To them I say, you are suffering by choice, the revolution will not be televised.

No one on this forum is proleteriat. They obviously have computer access which is a luxury many people only dream of.

Point #1. Damn. That's rough...

Point #2.
a. Hardly. If you were low working class, you'd know it doesn't work that way. Most of us made choices that have led us to this point, but that doesn't mean we wanted it. To quote a movie, "We all grew up thinking we'd be astronauts or rock stars or movie gods." We're striving to leave our social class, bu we can't. There are excptions both ways, some of the time. But most of us will be born into our class, and die in our class. John Lennon's son isn't impovrished, and his children probably won't be either. That's the way it usually works.

b. Free access at the library. The only guy who can afford a home connection in my town is the pot dealer, as sad as that is. And almost anyone can have access to a computer if they look around their town. Of course, it's quite a drive to our library, so I might not be able to come here very often.

great thing about america is... if there ever were one, all we'd have to do is call them communists and they'd go back home. Even when a person has natural socialist tendencies ("your wealth should belong to me..."), you whisper the C word and they saunter back with words like, "Oh, well, i hate communism."

Now if only these people would have someone explain to them that redistribution of wealth is socialism, and the socialism is the economic system of Communism...

Socialism is not the economic system of Communism. Plus I do not think the revolution is going to give the world what it need. But I do believe a society with no rich, no poor, totally equal in rights, yet people will still have the right to own property and the means of production.

Umm, no. Not going to happen, people won't become militant because of gas prices. Sorry.

Beyond that, the current rise in gas prices is related to the fact that the US lost perhaps 24% of it's total refining capacity. Which should theoretically translate to a 24% decrease in supply, and a 24% increase in price.

In fact, where I live, the price increase if far below twenty percent, making it perhaps 15% increase in prices.

Not because of gas prices alone. Gas is the lifeblood of our economy. Things can get very bad if it's suddenly lacking. Also, remember that I'm not saying this is a certainty. You don't know, and I don't know.

The middle point is interesting, but is it relevant?
EDIT:
Okay. Well, if there's a 24% increase in gas, then that could translate to shipping. Which could translate to shop prices. Which could translate to a lack of buisness. Which could translate to our wages. And if that happened, everything would cost more, and our wages could go down. We'd have less money to buy more expensive things.

The last point: Where do you live? In my area, far from oil production facilities, things are getting a little dicey. There probably won't be riots here, because we are all very mellow people. But I think my situation could be easily transfered to other places where people might not be as cool headed.
As to where, not a clue. I think it could happen, but as it was said earlier, there's no reason to dust off the shotgun quite yet.

ONE SOLUTION
REVOLUTION

WORKERS OF THE WORLD; UNTite

:D :D :D

I suppose I could create a new topic, but...

What's everyone's opinion on a price cap?

I'm an American communist who considers himself part of the proletariat. Now proletariat doesn't necesarily mean I'm opressed, it just means I'm part of the working class. I can't see a violent revolution happening anytime soon in America like Marx suggested, but I do believe within the next few presidencies we'll see a president like Roosevelt who will solve many problems by implementing socialist-like policies. I mean if you look at it, around 12% of Americans are below poverty, and around 5% of Americans are unemployed. The worker is obviously not receiving what they deserve. I propose that the minimum wage be raised and the government seize major farms to control food problems in the country. Something must be done. Until then, I propose we fight these problems plaguing America by joining labor unions and becoming more politcally aware. We have a world to win.

Even when a person has natural socialist tendencies ("your wealth should belong to me...")
You're talking shite right there. Socialists don't think "your wealth should belong to me" (that is greedy and individualist). They think "their wealth should belong to all."

ONE SOLUTION
REVOLUTION


WOOOOO!!!!