NationStates Jolt Archive

Mon Aug 29, 7:48 PM ET

CARACAS (AFP) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez offered to send food and fuel to the United States after the powerful Hurricane Katrina pummeled the US south, ravaging US crude production.

The leftist leader, a frequent critic of the United States and a target himself of US disapproval, said Venezuela could send aid workers with drinking water, food and fuel to US communities hit by the hurricane.

"We place at the disposition of the people of the United States in the event of shortages -- we have drinking water, food, we can provide fuel," Chavez told reporters.

Chavez said fuel could be sent to the United States via a Citgo refinery that has not been affected by the hurricane. Citgo is owned by Venezuela's state-owned oil company, Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA).

In the Gulf of Mexico, which accounts for a quarter of total US oil output, 92 percent of crude and 83 percent of natural gas production were shut down due to Hurricane Katrina, which slammed Louisiana and Mississippi, according to US government data.

Last week, Chavez offered discount gasoline to poor Americans suffering from high oil prices and on Sunday offered free eye surgery for Americans without access to health care.

"Where's the international community?" Well there you go, your faithful friends the Venezuelans. :p

I bet it all gets refused for being a publicity stunt, though. :rolleyes:

alright, so we got one country. better than nothing i supose. but then again... it is Venezuela.

alright, so we got one country. better than nothing i supose. but then again... it is Venezuela.

DF, Guess what!!!! I'M THE DUKE NOW!!!!

congrats Gal. enjoy it.

I thought we assasinated him. What's going on here?

I thought we assasinated him. What's going on here?
LOL! :p

Isn't this the guy Robertson wanted capped?

I'm sure Chaves ain't a saint, but at least he's doing something.

God Bless Hugo Chavez for helping America. He is in my prayers.

Hurricane Katrina: Tragedy in New Orleans. Inertia of the Bush Administration
by Don Nordin
August 31, 2005

Picture a huge empty bowl with water flowing uncontrollably over its edge to fill up that bowl. That's what's going on in New Orleans now.

The citizens who had counted on their governments to protect them are finding out that they had no protection. They are now paying with their lives.
*
Hurricane Katrina has devastated the city with its fierce winds, blowing buildings apart and causing major damage. And now that low lying city is slowly being filled with water from Lake Pontchartrain. It's a major catastrophe in relatively slow motion

There are still reported to be over 100,000 people in New Orleans, many of them being trapped by rising flood waters. The city is not equipped to handle a catastrophe of this magnitude. Police have become overwhelmed by looters who have rampaged through the city and cleaned out whatever stores they can. Drug addicts are reportedly breaking into pharmacies in order to get something to substitute for their next fix. I would think that some of the looting has been done merely by people who are stocking up on food in hopes of surviving a little longer. People have been warned not to drink city water. Bodies are floating through the streets. Poisonous snakes are in the flood waters. Islands of fire ants are floating through the water. Gas mains are erupting from under the water. Fires are burning unchecked.
*
A major side effect of this tragedy is that over 95% of the oil flow from the Gulf of Mexico has been said to be interrupted. This will result in every American and even Canadians paying for the incompetence and corruption of government officials who should have acted to minimize such an impact on the availablity of vital oil supplies for energy needs.
*
Hugo Chavez has already offered to sell 66,000 barrels of heating oil to poor communities in the US and has reportedly offered medical airlift aid for the evacuation of people in devastated areas.

*snip...

After hearing about Hugo Chavez's plan to send oil and other relief to the states devastated by the Hurricane. I was satisfied to see a man who puts real Christian values in his actions and not his words, he has shown charity, good will to the unfortunate and a willingness to turn the other cheek when a Christian mullah wished him dead. He also made Pat Robertson and all the other Christinan Mullahs who have been spreading their lies through out the U.S really stupid because people send these yahoos money and all they do is live like kings and tell everyone how to live and who and what to fear and hate in the name of Christ. Why hasn't Robertson or Falwell sent any relief efforts to those in the Hurricane or are they going to say " God sent the Hurricane to New Orleans because they are evil" finally a leader that practices values not preach them.

Christian or not he is a good man, and seems to care more for the flood victims then the US goverment who didnt even evacuete them..

P.s I laugh at the "oposition" in Venezuela, lol living standars have gotten batter, and that some of the old elite are pissed and are founded bye the CIA does not mean shit...

God Bless you Chavez

Has anyone considered the possibility that Chaves is sending relief effort out of the goodness of his heart...and as a big, fat, "fuck you!" to Pat Robertson?

Has anyone considered the possibility that Chaves is sending relief effort out of the goodness of his heart...and as a big, fat, "fuck you!" to Pat Robertson?there is less $$xpensive ways to say "fuck you!"

http://www.kulture-void.com/void/images/bush_finger-10.jpg

there is less $$xpensive ways to say "fuck you!"

http://www.kulture-void.com/void/images/bush_finger-10.jpg


Okay, there's "inexpensive" and then there's "cheap".

The Birdie is the latter IMO.

Has anyone considered the possibility that Chaves is sending relief effort out of the goodness of his heart...and as a big, fat, "fuck you!" to Pat Robertson?

If he actually does what he's offered to do, I don't give a damn about his motives. He deserves thanks.

alright, so we got one country. better than nothing i supose. but then again... it is Venezuela.

Canada Is Helping Too! (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050831.waid0831/BNStory/Front)

Canada Is Helping Too! (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050831.waid0831/BNStory/Front)

"The effort is the American Red Cross's "largest-ever mobilization of resources for a single disaster," it said."

So which was a bigger disaster? This or the tsunami? And which got more relief?

It's a bit hard to donate from here. Your Gov't has not asked any international aid, and my local Red Cross tells me there's not even a call to Int'l RC to give help. I sure would like to help the poor victims in USA, but please suggest how!?!

"The effort is the American Red Cross's "largest-ever mobilization of resources for a single disaster," it said."

So which was a bigger disaster? This or the tsunami? And which got more relief?

Well that was the American Red Cross, I'm sure Canada gave a lot more to the tsunami, because yes, it was by leaps and bounds a much worse disaster.

Although, I think it's still pretty nice of us Canadians to be doing this, given that the US government is trying to rip us off for 5 billion dollars at the moment. But it's about the people, so I'm for it. It's not about their stupid government.

Well that was the American Red Cross, I'm sure Canada gave a lot more to the tsunami, because yes, it was by leaps and bounds a much worse disaster.

Although, I think it's still pretty nice of us Canadians to be doing this, given that the US government is trying to rip us off for 5 billion dollars at the moment. But it's about the people, so I'm for it. It's not about their stupid government.
I agree, but as an internationalist, it will be particularly saddening if we manage to give more to help the hurricane victims than the tsunami victims. That said, never look a gift horse in the mouth.

Venezuelan President Chavez offers fuel, food to Hurricane Victims

That man rocks! Chavez = populist, not brutal dictator

That man rocks! Chavez = populist, not brutal dictator

Nods.

Don't worry...La Habana Cuba will submit a Haiku to prove to us all how horrible Chavez really is. :D

Chavez is a brutal dictator who is driving his people deeper in poverty. Those who defend him here should be deeply ashamed of themselves.

Chavez is a brutal dictator who is driving his people deeper in poverty. Those who defend him here should be deeply ashamed of themselves.
...

Where did that come from?

Chavez is a brutal dictator who is driving his people deeper in poverty. Those who defend him here should be deeply ashamed of themselves.

Wow, this looks more accurate.

Bush is a brutal dictator who is driving his people deeper in poverty. Those who defend him here should be deeply ashamed of themselves.

There's no question gas will hit $4 a gallon.
August 31, 2005: 4:11 PM EDT

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Consumers can expect retail gas prices to rise to $4 a gallon soon, but whether they stay there depends on the long-term damage to oil facilities from Hurricane Katrina, oil and gas analysts said Wednesday.

"There's no question gas will hit $4 a gallon," Ben Brockwell, director of pricing at the Oil Price Information Service, said. "The question is how high will it go and how long will it last?"

OPIS tracks wholesale and retail oil prices and provides pricing information for AAA's daily reports on fuel prices.

Brockwell said with gasoline prices now exceeding $3 a gallon before even reaching the wholesale level, it "doesn't take a genius" to expect retail prices to hit $4 a gallon soon.

"Consumers haven't seen the worst of it yet," Brockwell said.

He expects consumers in the Southeast and Northeast to be pinched first, following the impact of Hurricane Katrina on the Gulf Coast region.
Katrina pressures gas supplies

Katrina forced operators to close more than a tenth of the country's refining capacity and a quarter of its oil production, which sent gasoline prices surging.

...

Where did that come from?Must be from the Church of (Republican Presidential candidate) Pat Robertson.

I think that's completely overstated, and investors can be wrong. Lets face it, many of the oil rigs did in fact survive, and the extensive pipeline network (that BP has I believe) survived very well. Production has already restarted in several places. $4/gallon is a complete jump and doesn't take into account that demand will fall after labor day.

Chavez can kiss my ass.

Chavez is a brutal dictator who is driving his people deeper in poverty. Those who defend him here should be deeply ashamed of themselves.

I find it funny (tragic really) that the people who hate/distrust Chavez simply because of his political differences with us, even in the light of him helping out after Katrina, are the same people who actually thought that America would be welcomed/trusted by the people of Iraq when we went on our "Humanitarian Mission" there.

Cognitive dissonance anyone?

...

Where did that come from?
He's a rabid (and yes, in this case that's an apt description) Bush supporter and hater of Chavez. It's not based in reason, just prejudice. You haven't encountered this before?

Chavez is a brutal dictator who is driving his people deeper in poverty. Those who defend him here should be deeply ashamed of themselves.
Save it. If I were in the same situation, I'd take money from Saddam Hussein if it meant my kids would live.

Get over your politics for once.

Chavez can kiss my ass.
How very reasonable of you.

I find it funny (tragic really) that the people who hate/distrust Chavez simply because of his political differences with us, even in the light of him helping out after Katrina, are the same people who actually thought that America would be welcomed/trusted by the people of Iraq when we went on our "Humanitarian Mission" there.

Cognitive dissonance anyone?

FEMA is offering money.. the federal government is offering oil from the reserves. Chavez can kiss my ass. The US government is very powerful and can do it all on its own. So fucking powerful indeed. We cannot put the lives of our people in the hands of a backstabbing moron. I don't want his help as I don't want help from other dictatorships.

FEMA is offering money.. the federal government is offering oil from the reserves. Chavez can kiss my ass. The US government is very powerful and can do it all on its own. So fucking powerful indeed. We cannot put the lives of our people in the hands of a backstabbing moron. I don't want his help as I don't want help from other dictatorships.
You would seriously refuse the money? Over your politics? Do you screen all donors to charities to make sure they follow the party line you support too?

And delusions of grandeur might be comforting to you...but I doubt it is to those who have lost friends, families and property.

You would seriously refuse the money? Over your politics? Do you screen all donors to charities to make sure they follow the party line you support too?

And delusions of grandeur might be comforting to you...but I doubt it is to those who have lost friends, families and property.

If the FARC from Colombia was offering me money for this I wouldn't take it. Dirty money.

Delusions of grandeur? What are you? Blind?

My aunt lived in New Orleans, skank. She lost her property and lost nearly all of her possessions.. don't you even try to mock me on this one. Not only that she almost nearly didn't make it out in time.

I was about to say "ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" because :

This message is hidden because Mesatecala is on your ignore list.

as he never has anything worth listening to, but then you guys had to all go and quote him. Try and try but facts just don't get thru it seems.

I have two people on my ignore list now. The infuriating gulf republics and the not worth my time Mesatakalata

If the FARC from Colombia was offering me money for this I wouldn't take it. Dirty money.

Delusions of grandeur? What are you? Blind?

My aunt lived in New Orleans, skank. She lost her property and lost nearly all of her possessions.. don't you even try to mock me on this one. Not only that she almost nearly didn't make it out in time.
I suggest you tone it done, and resist flaming. Perhaps a break would help?

The US, like any other nation with a disaster of this proportion should welcome help. Period.

I suggest you tone it done, and resist flaming. Perhaps a break would help?

The US, like any other nation with a disaster of this proportion should welcome help. Period.

I called you that because you sought to minimize my own personal impact in this. I visited my aunt several times and am very close to my family...

I'd welcome help from democratic countries in which the money is not dirty. I'd even take help from France.. in fact I'd even say the French could send some doctors in and stuff.. but not Chavez. Like the FARC, he's dirty. He's brutal. And he has murdered his own people.

If the FARC from Colombia was offering me money for this I wouldn't take it. Dirty money.

Delusions of grandeur? What are you? Blind?

My aunt lived in New Orleans, skank. She lost her property and lost nearly all of her possessions.. don't you even try to mock me on this one. Not only that she almost nearly didn't make it out in time.

That is because the FARC of Cuba are merely drug-barons posing as left-wing revolutionaries.
Chavez is at best the democratically elected socialist leader of Venezuala and at worst is a benevolent dictator. Surely he genuinely cares for people in general if he offers aid to the United States and trades oil for Cuban doctors and teachers.
Of course, in regards to the disaster as a whole, I am not at all surprised by the damage. Americans seem to have this eccentricity for using timber rather than brick and stone in areas prone to devastation.

Well good for him. I'm glad he's helping us out.

I called you that because you sought to minimize my own personal impact in this. I visited my aunt several times and am very close to my family... I don't care why you flamed me, I just ask you not repeat the action. And no, I didn't 'seek to minimise your own personal impact in this'. I simply find the fact that you bring your politics into this in such an agressive, and rude way, to be insensitive. Saying Chavez can 'kiss your ass' is just as bad as having others say the same thing about Bush...something that offends you, as we've seen in other threads. A little restraint in face of an offer to help out during a disaster is somewhat expected.

I'd welcome help from democratic countries in which the money is not dirty. I'd even take help from France.. in fact I'd even say the French could send some doctors in and stuff.. but not Chavez. Like the FARC, he's dirty. He's brutal. And he has murdered his own people.
Looking for clean money heh? How do you define clean? And again...do you insist that donors to the Red Cross make their money in a 'clean' way? Do you ask charities to screen donations so the money is 'clean'? Or just when it suits you?

That is because the FARC of Cuba are merely drug-barons posing as left-wing revolutionaries.
Chavez is at best the democratically elected socialist leader of Venezuala and at worst is a benevolent dictator. Surely he genuinely cares for people in general if he offers aid to the United States and trades oil for Cuban doctors and teachers.
Of course, in regards to the disaster as a whole, I am not at all surprised by the damage. Americans seem to have this eccentricity for using timber rather than brick and stone in areas prone to devastation.

Colombia.

Chavez has worked with them before. He's not a benevolent dictator. He is in the pocket of the FARC. He doesn't care about his people. He is like every other. Do some idiotic populism that bankrupts the country and run with half the national treasury. I've seen this before... with Former President of Ecuador, Abdala Bucaram (a Chavez and Hitler admirer). Spew out so much crap even convincing people internationally, then run to Panama.

Looking for clean money heh? How do you define clean? And again...do you insist that donors to the Red Cross make their money in a 'clean' way? Do you ask charities to screen donations so the money is 'clean'? Or just when it suits you?

Look I'd take money from countries and organizations that have good records. Chavez doesn't. He can keep his dirty DRUG money.

Look I'd take money from countries and organizations that have good records. Chavez doesn't. He can keep his dirty DRUG money.
So your suggestion to Chavez would be to donate through the Red Cross, rather than directly, so you aren't offended because you just hate his guts so much.

Forget it...every time you get all frothy about the mouth I manage to avoid you. I think I'll do so now.

So your suggestion to Chavez would be to donate through the Red Cross, rather than directly, so you aren't offended because you just hate his guts so much.

Forget it...every time you get all frothy about the mouth I manage to avoid you. I think I'll do so now.

Get some common sense. And understand what latin american politics are about... I'm avoiding you too. Good luck with believeing this man. I'd think you'd take money from Hitler if he was still arond. :rolleyes:

FEMA is offering money.. the federal government is offering oil from the reserves. Chavez can kiss my ass. The US government is very powerful and can do it all on its own. So fucking powerful indeed. We cannot put the lives of our people in the hands of a backstabbing moron. I don't want his help as I don't want help from other dictatorships.
Ummm, Hugo Chavez is not a dictator. He was elected into power, twice. Venezeula isn't a single-party state either. Chavez has to compete against other candidates from other political parties. More information on this is available on Wikipedia. Before you go calling people dictators, research to see that they are infact dictators.

Ummm, Hugo Chavez is not a dictator. He was elected into power, twice. Venezeula isn't a single-party state either. Chavez has to compete against other candidates from other political parties. More information on this is available on Wikipedia. Before you go calling people dictators, research to see that they are infact dictators.

Chavez has completely alienated other parties. As far as I'm concerned Hosni Mubarak is as democratic as Chavez.. not at all.. democratically elected leaders can turn into dictators. Wikipedia is not a credible source of information. I do plenty of research.

It's a bit hard to donate from here. Your Gov't has not asked any international aid, and my local Red Cross tells me there's not even a call to Int'l RC to give help. I sure would like to help the poor victims in USA, but please suggest how!?!

I don't think anyone has answered this for you so I'll give it a go. Go online to the American Red Cross, the Salvation Army, Catholic Charities, etc and donate directly to them. Beware of independent charities soliciting monies as many of them are scammers. Right now priorities are evacuating New Orleans and starting clean up in Mississippi and Alabama. These organizations are on the front lines and can best put the donations to use.

Ummm, Hugo Chavez is not a dictator. He was elected into power, twice. Venezeula isn't a single-party state either. Chavez has to compete against other candidates from other political parties. More information on this is available on Wikipedia. Before you go calling people dictators, research to see that they are infact dictators.

Well obviously the people of Venezuela want a dictator if he truely is one because they keep re-electing him to rule them with an iron fist of oppression, while their situations are getting more and more dire - according to some misguided souls whose names I will not mention.

Get some common sense. And understand what latin american politics are about... I'm avoiding you too. Good luck with believeing this man. I'd think you'd take money from Hitler if he was still arond. :rolleyes:

That's a slippery slope fallacy.

We can fix our own mistakes. America is a big boy nation.

We can fix our own mistakes. America is a big boy nation.

With our record deficit and a cleanup for this mess that is looking like it might be 20 Billion or more, I don't think it woudl be a bad idea to take all the help that's offered to us.

With our record deficit and a cleanup for this mess that is looking like it might be 20 Billion or more, I don't think it woudl be a bad idea to take all the help that's offered to us.
Maybe it'll teach us fiscal responsibility and finally teach us that government shouldn't encourage people to build houses in stupid areas.
That's my hope, anyways. :p

Maybe it'll teach us fiscal responsibility and finally teach us that government shouldn't encourage people to build houses in stupid areas.
That's my hope, anyways. :p


Doubt the fiscal responsibility thing (well at least not from this administration) as well as the building in stupid areas thing.

Insurance companies were saying that they don't sell flood insurance (only the govt. does) because people will rebuild where it floods when they get their money. Why does our govt. offer flood insurance anyway?

Besides I don't want future generations to have to be paying off the debt for this disaster relief, I'm sure they will have their own problems.

I called you that because you sought to minimize my own personal impact in this. I visited my aunt several times and am very close to my family...

I'd welcome help from democratic countries in which the money is not dirty. I'd even take help from France.. in fact I'd even say the French could send some doctors in and stuff.. but not Chavez. Like the FARC, he's dirty. He's brutal. And he has murdered his own people.

That is no excuse to talk badly about someone is actually lending aid. Chavez probably actually did do this out of his heart (and possibly some spiting), and while you have your own opinion, this is naturally not the place to express it like that. I myself have some friends in Louisiana, and I have not heard from any of them, but will not make me go against someone who has offered aid.

Plus, money is money. There is no dirty money. The only thing dirty is the people who handled it. Clean people could make it, but dirty people get it. Dirty people could make it, but clean people could get it. What would be defined as dirty? If you're so intent on the fact that he's such a bad person, why won't you make up for it. Why won't you organize something to replace his 'dirty money', because without his money, there would only be that much less.

Hugo Chavez cares more about the American people then that Terrorist in the White House

Further proof that everything the right says is exactly the opposite of the truth. Robertson says we should assassinate Chavez, while claiming to be Christian. Well, who's upholding christian values more?

Thank you soo much Venezuela. Thank you for having a kind heart and a conscience.

I dont know enough about Hugo Chavez yet, but if he has made a real offer to assist with food water and discounted fuel-its certainly a step in the right direction towards goodwill.
Sure-we will probably be able to recover without one cent worth of any type of foreign nation assistance, but, if there are no absurd or prohibitive conditions attached, maybe its a good ice breaker and excuse for some meaningful dialogue between our countries. maybe accepting some assistance could help turn ours from an adversarial relationship, to a more friendly relationship. Maybe the people of Venezuela will feel some pride in helping us out, maybe the US will be grateful for some help from a potential friend, rather than snub the offer and increase the bad feelings.

I say take the assistance and be truly appreciative. Maybe there is some way we could return the favor in a way just as meaningful to the people of Venezuela.
I dont know the true source of Mr.Chavez's riches, or the reason for his generosity, but that will hardly matter to a single mother with two under dressed babies,with no fresh diapers, no bed to sleep in, with no clean water or food, standing knee deep in dirty water in 90 degree heat- I'm sure she would be grateful to anyone that offered her kids safety, nourishment and comfort.

Nearly half the population of Venezuela live beneath the poverty line - and the poverty line actually means something down there. The GDP per capita of venzuela is less than $6000. I don't really think they can afford foreign aid, and they certianly shouldn't be offering it to a nation as wealthy as the US.

This is as bad as when Idi Amin wanted to send foreign aid money to the UK.

I'd think you'd take money from Hitler if he was still arond.
I'll address this: if Hitler was still around, he'd be just a little over 116 years old. Not absolutely (http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_objectid=15878603&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=-world-s-oldest-woman--has-sight-restored-name_page.html) unheard of, but exceedingly rare to be so old. Now, if Hitler were still living, he'd be impossibly weak and slow to respond - making it all the easier to take money from the miserable ol' Nazi bastard. I'd do it, and be out of the room and out the front door faster than he could get out of bed. Serves him right for leaving tidy bits of cash in easy-to-reach places.

I'll address this: if Hitler was still around, he'd be just a little over 116 years old. Not absolutely (http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_objectid=15878603&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=-world-s-oldest-woman--has-sight-restored-name_page.html) unheard of, but exceedingly rare to be so old. Now, if Hitler were still living, he'd be impossibly weak and slow to respond - making it all the easier to take money from the miserable ol' Nazi bastard. I'd do it, and be out of the room and out the front door faster than he could get out of bed. Serves him right for leaving tidy bits of cash in easy-to-reach places.


LOL

Seriously, I'd take money from Hitler too if I could. Better I have it than him. I bet I would put it to better use. :p

good to see you Dobbs!

FEMA is offering money.. the federal government is offering oil from the reserves. Chavez can kiss my ass. The US government is very powerful and can do it all on its own. So fucking powerful indeed. We cannot put the lives of our people in the hands of a backstabbing moron. I don't want his help as I don't want help from other dictatorships.

Wow. To think that when I saw you post I used to think that you were a reasoned and informed individual worthy of note. I even respected, though disagreed personally, with your position on Chavez.

Unfortunately I find it sad that you can niether shelve your apparent rabid partisanship, nor simply shut your mouth when a leader who, even though opposing the US and being generally disliked here, offers aid to our poor, and offers help to the victims of this disaster while many nations, some much closer allies, simply twiddle thier thumbs.

Face these facts -
Chavez is neither brutal, nor a dictator. If he qualifies, then so I'm afraid does Bush.
Chavez is helping us, without us asking or him demanding anything in return. Tis the mark of a good deed, period.
Chavez *did* face economic downturn due to investor fright, caused by Venesuelan political instabilty(in addition to a general Venesuelan economic downturn started by oil issues in the 1950's that saw the economy shrink almost unstopped into the 1990's and even into this century). Sad fact is that Chavez's opposision, in attempting a coup and a recall referendum, caused most of that instability. In 2005, the GDP has grown 30%, and the economy is projected to grow some 10% in total. In addition, avaliable wages for the poor have increased somewhere around 30-40%. Not only that, but his groundbreaking experiment of a form of democratic factory management in 3 state run factories has led to an increase of 11% in overall productivity so far.

You will no doubt retort with something along the lines of he is eliminating the Middle class, screwing the poor, or scaring investors away, whichever strikes your fancy at the moment I suppose, but according to the figures I've gathered from both Venesuelan and non-Venesuelan sources, I would tend to disagree.

I'm sorry I don't have time to debate this issue at length(I'm recently in college, so I'm a tad busy), but I had to chime in and say something.

Chavez is a good man(something sorely lacking in politics these days), and if he were American I would be honored to have such a man as President. Such a broad statement of support is something I almost NEVER give btw.

This kind of reminds of when that assclown Castro offered to help monitor elections in Florida. Like that asshole knows anything about fair, free elections.

Christian or not he is a good man, and seems to care more for the flood victims then the US goverment who didnt even evacuete them..

that seems like a rather contrived and ignorant comment.... are you suggeting the united states government should walk into peoples homes and force them out? wheather it be for their own good or not... why not just shred the constitution now. We are not a dictatorship, and im glad you think the government so efficient that it can organize a mass forced evactuation in a matter of two days.

that seems like a rather contrived and ignorant comment.... are you suggeting the united states government should walk into peoples homes and force them out? wheather it be for their own good or not... why not just shred the constitution now. We are not a dictatorship, and im glad you think the government so efficient that it can organize a mass forced evactuation in a matter of two days.


wow, his balls ARE huge! :p

that seems like a rather contrived and ignorant comment.... are you suggeting the united states government should walk into peoples homes and force them out? wheather it be for their own good or not... why not just shred the constitution now. We are not a dictatorship, and im glad you think the government so efficient that it can organize a mass forced evactuation in a matter of two days.
The Canadian government organizes mass evacuations during emmergency situations(of course none have been to the scale as the evacuation need for the hurrician). Generally, people in Canada get upset when the government doesn't force an evacuation in a situation it should have. Japan also has evacuation stratagies planned for when Mnt Fuji erupts, Vancouver Island has it infrastructure set up so the westcoast can easily be evacuated incase of a tsunami. You make it seem like it is better for masses of people to die then have the government try to save their lives.

The Canadian government organizes mass evacuations during emmergency situations(of course none have been to the scale as the evacuation need for the hurrician). Generally, people in Canada get upset when the government doesn't force an evacuation in a situation it should have. Japan also has evacuation stratagies planned for when Mnt Fuji erupts, Vancouver Island has it infrastructure set up so the westcoast can easily be evacuated incase of a tsunami. You make it seem like it is better for masses of people to die then have the government try to save their lives.

It's Louisana, they aren't the sharpest knives down there. I was listening to the radio on Sunday morning, and some guy was complaining that there had been no efforts made to evacuate, even though at that time the situation looked even worse.

While I don't really like Chavez all that much, at least he shows he's willing to play ball. Perhaps if he gets off of his conspiracy theories there could be a lot more cooperation.

Get some common sense. And understand what latin american politics are about... I'm avoiding you too. Good luck with believeing this man. I'd think you'd take money from Hitler if he was still arond. :rolleyes:

Hey lay off of Sinuhue buddy. Internet anonymity isn't a carte blanche for being a jerk. And would you mind explaining to everybody what Latin American politics are all about, seeing as you are implying that you know so much about it.

As for this dirty money argument, well now you know why south asian countries were loathe to accept dollars from the American govt after the tsunami. When charity has strings attached it is no longer charity.

Look, it's really quite simple. Chavez hates the US. Now, why would a man that hates this country offer his help. 3 choices:

1. He's a moron
2. He's a good man
3. He just want's to look well in front of everyone.

1. Well, that he can't be. I don't like the guy, but a moron would not be able to worm his way into the presidency and mantain it.
2. Riiiight.... A good man does not support suversive guerrillas, shoot his own people, and manipulate referendums.
3. Well, look at the scenario:

Chavez sends his proposal to Bush. Bush, as arrogant and powerful as he is will say: "Well, i can't have a 3rd world country helping us, we'll look like weak idiots, besides, the US has more than enough money to cover this. No need to swallow our pride in this one." Of course, that double-speak, manipulator man has already foreseen this situation (as most people with common sense have too) and understood he will be refused. In the end, he loses nothing, no money or oil, and looks good in front of the international community.

Awww, isn't that nice. Chavez once again shows how selfless he is...

NOT

Chavez has completely alienated other parties. As far as I'm concerned Hosni Mubarak is as democratic as Chavez.. not at all.. Wikipedia is not a credible source...IMO... Wikipedia is more credible than Mesatecala

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Chavez

Chavez hates the US.Prove it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Chavez

Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías (born July 28, 1954) is the President of Venezuela. A former paratroop lieutenant-colonel who led an unsuccessful coup d'état in 1992, he was elected president in 1998. His presidency has seen sweeping changes throughout the country, including a new constitution, many new social programs, and a new foreign policy distancing Venezuela from the United States.

Since his election in 1998 on promises of helping the poor, Chávez's influence over Venezuelan politics has grown. One year after a majority of Venezuelans voted to keep him in office, the popular leader consolidated his power, striking a harsh anti-USA tone. He is up for re-election in 2006, and recent polls suggest he has about 70 percent popularity.


Later on the article....

Chávez has been intensely critical of U.S. economic and foreign policy: in Iraq, Haiti, regarding the Free Trade Area of the Americas and in numerous other areas. On 20 February 2005, Chávez stated that he had reasons to believe that the U.S. had plans to have him assassinated; he said that any attempt would mean that Venezuela would cut off oil to the U.S. [12] His rhetoric has sometimes touched the personal: in response to the ouster of Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide in February 2004, Chávez called U.S. President George W. Bush a pendejo (differing translations have been proposed [2]); in a later speech, he made personal remarks regarding Condoleezza Rice.


Now... You're the one that said that Wikipedia was reliable. I took this from YOUR OWN SOURCE.

the popular leader consolidated his power, striking a harsh anti-USA tone.

Chávez has been intensely critical of U.S. economic and foreign policy...

Now... You're the one that said that Wikipedia was reliable. I took this from YOUR OWN SOURCE.Since Bush was appointed President by the NeoCon Judges...

I have an very "harsh" Anti-US-Gov "tone"...

and I am very "intensely critical" of Bush-ite Economic and Foreign Policy...

more so than Chavez...

Yet... I do not accept any suggestions that I hate the US.

BTW Wikipedia is still more credible than Mesacatala

Ok, you challenged me to prove whether Chavez hated the US, not you.

I proved it. I could not care less whether you hate the US or not.

Oh and by the way...

Since Bush was appointed President by the NeoCon Judges...

I have an very "harsh" Anti-US-Gov "tone"...

and I am very "intensely critical" of Bush-ite Economic and Foreign Policy...

more so than Chavez...




That would describe me too. However, the only difference is that you see an arrogant, bloodlusted, and oil greedy man and a just and caring other. I see two arrogant, bloodlusted and oil greedy men.

Chavez has completely alienated other parties. As far as I'm concerned Hosni Mubarak is as democratic as Chavez.. not at all.. democratically elected leaders can turn into dictators. Wikipedia is not a credible source of information. I do plenty of research.

The elections as well as the opposition referendum all came out in Chavez's favour. The results were validated by multitudinous international observers like including the Carter Foundation. The only ones who decried it were the Bush administration.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3605772.stm

In addition your link between Chavez and FARC is tenuous at best; it was only mentioned by Rumsfeld that the 100000 rifles they purchased would be passed onto FARC. This claim seems tenuous as Venezuala has been pursuing good relations with the Columbian government in order to secure a pipeline deal.

The elections as well as the opposition referendum all came out in Chavez's favour. The results were validated by multitudinous international observers like including the Carter Foundation. The only ones who decried it were the Bush administration.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3605772.stm

In addition your link between Chavez and FARC is tenuous at best; it was only mentioned by Rumsfeld that the 100000 rifles they purchased would be passed onto FARC. This claim seems tenuous as Venezuala has been pursuing good relations with the Columbian government in order to secure a pipeline deal.

It isn't tenuous. In fact it is pretty well proven that there is a tie between Venezuela and the FARC. Ties between Venezuela and Colombia are completely frigid. Uribe hates Chavez. Uribe a great leader, knows to distance himself from idiotic dictatorships.

PLEASE LEARN ABOUT LATIN AMERICA BEFORE YOU MAKE IGNORANT COMMENTS ON IT.

Now Chavez is attacking Bush in the wake of hurricane Katrina. Maybe someone should remove Chavez and send him into exile. That idiot.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050901/wl_nm/weather_katrina_chavez_dc

You people support Chavez.. nothing more then appeasers for one of the most horrid leaders I have seen in a long time in Latin America.. even more terrible then Anatasio Somoza.

Face these facts -
Chavez is neither brutal, nor a dictator. If he qualifies, then so I'm afraid does Bush.
Chavez is helping us, without us asking or him demanding anything in return. Tis the mark of a good deed, period.
Chavez *did* face economic downturn due to investor fright, caused by Venesuelan political instabilty(in addition to a general Venesuelan economic downturn started by oil issues in the 1950's that saw the economy shrink almost unstopped into the 1990's and even into this century). Sad fact is that Chavez's opposision, in attempting a coup and a recall referendum, caused most of that instability. In 2005, the GDP has grown 30%, and the economy is projected to grow some 10% in total. In addition, avaliable wages for the poor have increased somewhere around 30-40%. Not only that, but his groundbreaking experiment of a form of democratic factory management in 3 state run factories has led to an increase of 11% in overall productivity so far.


The GDP didn't grow 30% in 2005 in Venezuela. It simply didn't.

Totally unsupported, and totally wrong. You face the facts: The growth that Venezuela is experiencing is totally focused on Chavez's own little elite group. The poor have become more poor, and the wages have not increased (where did you get those numbers from? Thin air?). Not unexpected for a socialist to support this guy. Well, when Venezuela comes tumbling down because of economic fuck-ups, I'll be there laughing at you. Please learn what he really is about.

The Venezuelan population in the mean time continues to slide deeper into poverty, and now 60% of the population is under poverty. Its government lacks long term management skills, and does not have a grasp on reality. Its economy is totally directed by oil. That could be a total disaster.

Do you even know what real economic growth is? Do you even bother providing any sources (just saying "I say so" doesn't cut it)? You know how poor Venezuela is? Have you ever visited Venezuela like I have? Do you know that there are very few jobs being created (if any)? Do you realize unemployment is still climbing?

Or does that completely go past your head?

alright, so we got one country. better than nothing i supose. but then again... it is Venezuela.
eh honey....venezuela=oil :D and leftist tendencies...George understands half of that

The GDP didn't grow 30% in 2005 in Venezuela. It simply didn't.

Totally unsupported, and totally wrong. You face the facts: The growth that Venezuela is experiencing is totally focused on Chavez's own little elite group. The poor have become more poor, and the wages have not increased (where did you get those numbers from? Thin air?). Not unexpected for a socialist to support this guy. Well, when Venezuela comes tumbling down because of economic fuck-ups, I'll be there laughing at you. Please learn what he really is about.

The Venezuelan population in the mean time continues to slide deeper into poverty, and now 60% of the population is under poverty. Its government lacks long term management skills, and does not have a grasp on reality. Its economy is totally directed by oil. That could be a total disaster.

Do you even know what real economic growth is? Do you even bother providing any sources (just saying "I say so" doesn't cut it)? You know how poor Venezuela is? Have you ever visited Venezuela like I have? Do you know that there are very few jobs being created (if any)? Do you realize unemployment is still climbing?

Or does that completely go past your head?
You also didn't post any sources either. All you said then was "you're wrong because I say so".

I shouldn't laugh. but there is something inheritly funny about Chaves offering America aid. It's kind like Rawanda sending over food packages...

I shouldn't laugh. but there is something inheritly funny about Chaves offering America aid. It's kind like Rawanda sending over food packages...
Or like a bum giving Bill Gates $5 when Windows Vista comes out and flops (plz plz flop).

Sweet irony.

I'm sure the debate about Chavez will rage in this thread but maybe, just maybe, such news will encourage people not to judge purely based on ideological prejudice.

Aside from the economic issues, which are too complex for blanket statements, and the social/medical arena, where things have no doubt been happening, what I find most interesting in Venezuela is the constitutional attempt to increase democratic particpiation. It remains up to people to actually use that, of course, but then they seem more willing to do so than in many notable Western countries...

Now Chavez is attacking Bush in the wake of hurricane Katrina. Maybe someone should remove Chavez and send him into exile. That idiot.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050901/wl_nm/weather_katrina_chavez_dc
Chavez was upset over how the richest contry in the world had no plan to protect its own people. They had plenty of warning, scientist did predict that this year would have hurricanes that are much more violent than last year. Why is it too much to ask for the US to have some sort of strategy prepared? What really upsets me though is that you think he is an idiot for thinking that the government should have tried to protect its people.

Super disaster in the US and Norway have not stept up to the plate.. After the sunami they wher so fast to critisize all the rich nation of the world not a word from them now....Shame on you!!

What exactly are they supposed to do? There are worse disasters in the world right now, you know.

How about sending help??

Why the USA over all the other places? Plus Norway isn't that big, can't send that much.

Where is Norway??

Who cares?

I think its a little early to start examining who will lend assistance. How do we know who has or hasnt offered to help yet? We only know what we know from the news and they are pretty focused on people sitting on roof tops for days and the looting situations.
Its too early to start a negative campaign. I do understand what you're saying, but I think you might be jumping the gun.

I think its a little early to start examining who will lend assistance. How do we know who has or hasnt offered to help yet? We only know what we know from the news and they are pretty focused on people sitting on roof tops for days and the looting situations.
Its too early to start a negative campaign. I do understand what you're saying, but I think you might be jumping the gun.

*shrug* as soon as the boxing day tsunami came to public light, there were people on here straight away attacking each other because their countries weren't offering enough aid, even though no one knew the extent of the damage at the time. It's NS, it's what happens.

First of all it wasn't Norway, but was Jan Egeland of the United Nations who critizised the developped countries for being stingy immediately after the tsunami disaster. Albeit being a Norwegian, he was speaking for the UN and not Norway.

Second, there's a difference between the tsunami disaster and the aftermath of Katrin. The tsunami struck many non-developped countries. This hurricane hit the world's biggest economy. The US is a giant. The US won't need funds from other nations to rebuild what was destroyed in the hurricane, whereas the Asian countries that suffered after the tsunami needed the funds desperately.

I'm sure Norway and other rich countries would be happy to help if the US asked them but it may be a bit embarassing to offer the world's richest nation relief efforts. Maybe they're afraid the US would be insulted. But the hurricane has just hit and there will be time for relief efforts later. They say New Orléans may be under water for a long time.

The tsunami happened to quite a poor region of the world. Not the poorest, but certainly not well-off.

Secondly we have the fact that America is the richest country in the world, and as such is fully capable of supporting itself through this. There is a reason why there aren't any charities aimed at helping the richest countries of the world recover from disasters, you know. Perhaps if the government didn't spend such a phenomenal amount of tax money on weapons of destruction it would be a little easier, but you know who to blame for that.

Thirdly, we don't know what the damage is yet, so how can you expect people to decide how much they are going to be giving as aid, if anything?

Finally, perhaps Norway (or whoever) feels that as America didn't give enough aid to the tsunami disaster in their eyes, they aren't going to help America? A little taste of their own 'eye for an eye' medicine, perhaps? Politicians are like little children on a playground, after all.

Yes, you are right...

Norway should have offered money and aid to the USA right after the hurricane hit. After all, the US is such a poor and underdeveloped country that such aid will be essential. Especially also becuse the number of deaths in the US is sure to pass the death-toll of the tsunami. :rolleyes:

Also, I've heard that Hugo Chavez of Venezuela has offered aid to the US. I wonder if the government has accepted?

What Norway really should send though, is police. After all, with all the looting and shootings there now, the local police need all the help they can get.

For example: "We have suspended operations until they gain control of the Superdome," said Richard Zeuschlag, head of Acadian Ambulance, which was handling the evacuation of sick and injured people from the Superdome, the Associated Press reported.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/01/AR2005090100533.html

I imagine that issues of jurisdiction might arise if police officers from Norway tried enforcing the law in America :D.

What Norway really should send though, is police. After all, with all the looting and shootings there now, the local police need all the help they can get.

Norwegian police, or any other country's police, would not and should not have authority in the US.

What the hell is Norway going to send us? Food? We've got much more than they do. Medical supplies, we have plenty. Trucks, boats, helicopters, we've got that covered too. The US is strong enough to clean this mess up and take care of it's own. Better that the rest of the world continues to use it's money and resources to help Niger and Darfur. They need it alot more than we do.

The GDP didn't grow 30% in 2005 in Venezuela. It simply didn't.

Totally unsupported, and totally wrong. You face the facts: The growth that Venezuela is experiencing is totally focused on Chavez's own little elite group. The poor have become more poor, and the wages have not increased (where did you get those numbers from? Thin air?). Not unexpected for a socialist to support this guy. Well, when Venezuela comes tumbling down because of economic fuck-ups, I'll be there laughing at you. Please learn what he really is about.

The Venezuelan population in the mean time continues to slide deeper into poverty, and now 60% of the population is under poverty. Its government lacks long term management skills, and does not have a grasp on reality. Its economy is totally directed by oil. That could be a total disaster.

Do you even know what real economic growth is? Do you even bother providing any sources (just saying "I say so" doesn't cut it)? You know how poor Venezuela is? Have you ever visited Venezuela like I have? Do you know that there are very few jobs being created (if any)? Do you realize unemployment is still climbing?

Or does that completely go past your head?

No, no it didn't go past my head(You may have meant over my head though. Either case, no). I should start by making some corrections -
Oil issues began in 1980's, in the 1950's to 1980's Venesuela enjoyed prosperity,
When I mentioned the economic growth I typed 2005 instead of 2004,
and I should have said non wage, availiable funds(healthcare, subsidized food and the like) increased for the poor, not avaliable wages.

All of those are my bad.

Here's my sources(Format: Source - what I got):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Chavez - basic Chavez info
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4155936.stm - experimental Socialist technique yeilds 11% increase in factory production
http://www.cepr.net/publications/venezuela_2005_06.pdf - Chavez reverses long term economic decline, explaination of increased poverty and showing that poverty is inching back down
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1167 - economic growth for 2004 between 9 and 10%, largest in Latin America
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Economy-of-Venezuela - 02 03 recession caused by political instability(check Chavez wiki, this timeframe corresponds exactly with attempts to remove Chavez(coup, oil strike, start of referendum were all 02 03.)
https://www.economy.com/home/login/ds_proLogin.asp?script_name=/dismal/pro/blog.asp&cid=16907&src=hp_latest - economy growth of 11.1% since this time last year, strong increase in investment spending too
http://scoop.agonist.org/archives/008418.html - little snippet, but details some small things Chavez has done for the poor that aren't reflected in poverty numbers(IE basic literacy training for half a million poor, hundreds of thousands of new children from the poor entering school for the first time, squatting poor given titles to land)
http://www.latin-focus.com/latinfocus/countries/venezuela/venunemp.htm - shows unemployment from 1996 to April 2005. Unemployment has fallen from nearly 16% in 2002, to around 15% in 2003, then to 11% in 2004, and lowering again just slightly from the end of 2004 to April 2005. Also notice the huge jump in 02 and 03, again corresponding with the opposition's attempt to dislodge Chavez, which as I previously claimed, caused instability that hurt the economy and scared away investors.

As to whether I've been to Venesuela, no I can't say that I have. Have you ever been to Thailand? Or Australia? China perhaps? Or the Principality of Monaco? France? Italy? Great Britain? Japan? I'm sure there's plenty of places I've been that you have not, and apparently several that you've been that I haven't. All well and good, and completely irrelevant I'm afraid.

Do I know how poor Venezuela is? Yes, yes I do. Those figures are readily avaliable, that the GDP per capita is $5,800, and that as of 2004, poverty is at 53.10%. Quite poor. Which is why, funnily enough, I'm a socialist and support Hugo Chavez.

If by some twist of fate I and my sources(most of which I believe to be relatively reputable and bias-free) are entirely wrong on Chavez, and he *is* a brutal dictator that will only destroy his nations economy and harm his people, then I will conceide the point if/when it comes to that. But as of now, I stand by my assessment of the situation.

NOTE: I cannot seem to verify the numbers of a GDP growth of 30%. Rather than stand by something I cannot prove, I retract the claim.

America won't NEED the aid. How many fucking times has a bigass tornado hit and no international relief was offered and no one gave a damn? :headbang:

What the hell is Norway going to send us? Food? We've got much more than they do. Medical supplies, we have plenty. Trucks, boats, helicopters, we've got that covered too. The US is strong enough to clean this mess up and take care of it's own. Better that the rest of the world continues to use it's money and resources to help Niger and Darfur. They need it alot more than we do.

raw herring and knitted jumpers

raw herring and knitted jumpers
I'll take it.

Norwegian police, or any other country's police, would not and should not have authority in the US.

Hey, I didn't mean that they should just send police over, although that would be a fun idea. I was thinking about going through proper diplomatic channels and offer aid in the form of sending personell.

And if that would happen, and the US would accept, (you know, at the same day that pigs learn to fly) they would have authority in the country, as I imagine they would be put to work under the supervision of the FBI or some government agency like that.

Chaves' offer is very generous and I am very grateful to him and his countrymen for their concern.

America won't NEED the aid. How many fucking times has a bigass tornado hit and no international relief was offered and no one gave a damn? :headbang:
When was the last time a big ass "tornado" killed hundreds of people, even in a season, and caused billions of dollars in damage? Superdomes arn't cheap you know. Katrina has at least 100 confirmed deaths, and that is just Mississippi.

America won't NEED the aid. How many fucking times has a bigass tornado hit and no international relief was offered and no one gave a damn? :headbang:
Actually, Canada is sending help as we speak. The US also asked for a list of emergency supplies we could send.

As explained here (http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2005/08/31/1196404-cp.html)
EDMONTON (CP) - Canadian officials have started getting ready to send whatever type of aid the United States requires to help with the aftermath of hurricane Katrina, Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan said Wednesday.

"We want to reassure the president and the people of the United States that we are their best friends and their neighbour, and we will be there to help them in a situation that truly is without parallel in our country or theirs," said McLellan.

"Yesterday, the Department of Human Health Services in the U.S. contacted our public health agency and asked for an inventory of emergency supplies that, if they need them, we could send at a moment's notice."

That inventory was completed Wednesday.

American officials are still assessing their needs, but in coming days Canada will be prepared to send everything from water purification systems to the Canadian military's Disaster Assistance Response Team.

Asked by reporters about the effect of Katrina on the Canadian economy - such as sharply higher oil prices as a result of supply disruptions - McLellan acknowledged there could be an impact but stressed she wants to focus on the human tragedy of the disaster at this moment.

Federal Finance Minister Ralph Goodale didn't put any limits on the financial or in-kind contributions Canada could make to the rescue and reconstruction efforts.

"If we've got it, and the Americans need it, obviously, we'll be there," he told the Regina Leader-Post.

Goodale cited the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Administration as a possible way in which Canada can help in the re-building effort.

"PFRA is one of the pre-eminent agencies in the world on waterflows," he said.

"Obviously, this is a human tragedy of enormous proportions, and the government of Canada and the people of Canada will want to be of every possible assistance we can be to our neighbors at a time of great distress."

Prime Minister Paul Martin was set to speak by phone Thursday with U.S. President George W. Bush about what Canada can do to help the reconstruction effort.

B.C.'s provincial Heavy Urban Search and Rescue team was leaving for Lafayette, La. on Wednesday.

The state's goveror's office had requested help from the team, Solicitor General John Les said.

"We're the first non-U.S.-based team to be requested," Les said. "They're going to be helping as many people as they can."

The 45-person Vancouver-based team is trained in urban disaster relief and had been dispatched to Southeast Asia after the Boxing Day tsunami.

Elsewhere in Canada, Ontario is looking into whether its medical and hydro workers can help, and Premier Dalton McGuinty spoke to the U.S. ambassador to Canada asking what the province can do.

"We stand at the ready to assist," said McGuinty, who added Ontario could help with its Emergency Medical Assistance Team.

Relief efforts by Canadians in disaster zones are largely organized in Ottawa, but McGuinty said he wants to know from Ambassador David Wilkins what specifically Ontario can do.

Manitoba Premier Gary Doer said officials with Manitoba Hydro have also offered to send staff to the affected areas to help restore power.

At least 125 people have died in the severely flooded states of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, while New Orleans is a swamp with about 80 per cent of the city under water.

A spokeswoman for the Canadian Red Cross said lists of volunteers experienced in large-scale disasters were being assembled.

Suzanne Charest said agency officials expect a handful of volunteers may be ready to travel to Louisiana and Mississippi sometime this weekend.

"If you look at the impact of hurricane Katrina, we'll be sending well over 100 Canadian Red Cross workers in the coming weeks," Charest said from Ottawa.

Most of the volunteers will help spell off exhausted American relief workers in the coming months, she said. The Canadians will put in three weeks of gruelling, emotionally draining work that could see them huddling in shelters in sleeping bags along with those left homeless.

"They'll be interviewing families to see what kind of resources they need. Maybe they've lost their house, they need clean-up kits, they need financial support, they can't work."

A spokeswoman for Mennonite Disaster Service in Winnipeg said its sister agency in the U.S. is sending three or four investigators to Mississippi where they hope to set up a base camp for volunteers to help rebuild homes.

More than 500 Canadian Mennonites may eventually be sent to the U.S., said Lois Nickel of the church-based relief organization.

The first priority is to cut up downed trees and get them off power lines and roads, she said.

"Some folks from surrounding states that volunteer with us are hoping to go into parts of Alabama already this weekend to do chainsawing," said Nickel.

"Up here, our job right now is to take calls for donations."

Some aid was already heading south Wednesday. A crew of 10 hydro-line workers from Chatham-Kent Hydro in Ontario was on its way to help restore power to homes and businesses.

I think its a little early to start examining who will lend assistance. How do we know who has or hasnt offered to help yet? We only know what we know from the news and they are pretty focused on people sitting on roof tops for days and the looting situations.
Its too early to start a negative campaign. I do understand what you're saying, but I think you might be jumping the gun.

I agree. We haven't even organized our "local" effort enough to know what is needed.

It's funny when US need help we hear all kind of exuses but when someone else need help US is the first to respond.
This is a SUPER disaster over 1.5 million people have lost their home!! Whole town are wiped out!! There in NOTHING there left. The looks is simular to the Sunami last year in Asia. In places the water whent in 10s of miles!!The estimated number have risen to over 3000 it can top at 5000. Yes, it's much less then the sunami where the total is never going to be known, but the best guestmate in 350.000. What we need is money and help to rebuild. If you can, please donate to American Red Cross or to your local church!!
Let's pray for all that are in need of help.

Yes it is very generous. Along the lines of a poor woman giving $5 dollars to charity being more generous than a rich man giving $100,000 to charity.

Yes it is very generous. Along the lines of a poor woman giving $5 dollars to charity being more generous than a rich man giving $100,000 to charity.

Indeed. But guess who gets the statue?

I don't understand... is Chavez offering us crude oil or gasoline? The latter would be far more helpful than the former, considering we can't even process the oil we have right now.

Pop South of the Arctic, if you hit Greenland move East, Canada move East, if you hit Russia go West and if you hit Europe move about halfway back North and wiggle around a bit. It's there somewhere.

Look, it's really quite simple. Chavez hates the US. Now, why would a man that hates this country offer his help. 3 choices:

1. He's a moron
2. He's a good man
3. He just want's to look well in front of everyone.

1. Well, that he can't be. I don't like the guy, but a moron would not be able to worm his way into the presidency and mantain it.
2. Riiiight.... A good man does not support suversive guerrillas, shoot his own people, and manipulate referendums.
3. Well, look at the scenario:

Chavez sends his proposal to Bush. Bush, as arrogant and powerful as he is will say: "Well, i can't have a 3rd world country helping us, we'll look like weak idiots, besides, the US has more than enough money to cover this. No need to swallow our pride in this one." Of course, that double-speak, manipulator man has already foreseen this situation (as most people with common sense have too) and understood he will be refused. In the end, he loses nothing, no money or oil, and looks good in front of the international community.

Awww, isn't that nice. Chavez once again shows how selfless he is...

NOT


I'll repeat what I said earlier. If Chavez actually comes through with the aid, then I don't give a damn about his motives.

Right now, helping people is more important than politics. If Chavez is willing and able to help, let him.

And as for hating the US, you need to learn the difference between hating the US government and hating the US people. They are not the same thing.

:rolleyes:

Indeed. But guess who gets the statue?

Saddam Hussein?

It's funny when US need help we hear all kind of exuses but when someone else need help US is the first to respond.
This is a SUPER disaster over 1.5 million people have lost their home!! Whole town are wiped out!! There in NOTHING there left. The looks is simular to the Sunami last year in Asia. In places the water whent in 10s of miles!!The estimated number have risen to over 3000 it can top at 5000. Yes, it's much less then the sunami where the total is never going to be known, but the best guestmate in 350.000. What we need is money and help to rebuild. If you can, please donate to American Red Cross or to your local church!!
Let's pray for all that are in need of help.
I direct you to post 19 in that very thread.

Canada is sending help. Chavez in venezuela is offering help, whether his motives are altruistic or not. And yet you refuse to see the evidence in front of your eyes and continue to be critical and scream. Let's also mention the fact that the US didn't request international aid in the first place.

You sir are hypocritical to criticize the rest of the world on something that is patently false.

It's funny when US need help we hear all kind of exuses but when someone else need help US is the first to respond.
This is a SUPER disaster over 1.5 million people have lost their home!! Whole town are wiped out!! There in NOTHING there left. The looks is simular to the Sunami last year in Asia. In places the water whent in 10s of miles!!The estimated number have risen to over 3000 it can top at 5000. Yes, it's much less then the sunami where the total is never going to be known, but the best guestmate in 350.000. What we need is money and help to rebuild. If you can, please donate to American Red Cross or to your local church!!
Let's pray for all that are in need of help.

We have enough money and volunteers in our country to deal with this disaster without help, I'd think. The tsunami was much worse. It spanned several countries. Millions of people lost their homes and lives.
Can someone give me the death count? I've heard eighty, but that might be wrong.
EDIT: The death count for Katrina, I mean.

This argument is similar to one I heard on another board, with someone blasting the countries that were hit by the tsunami for not helping us.
We are a very rich country, but our money isn't going where it should. If it's billion dollars of damage, we should take billions of dollars out of the military budget to fix it.

We have enough money and volunteers in our country to deal with this disaster without help, I'd think. The tsunami was much worse. It spanned several countries. Millions of people lost their homes and lives.
Can someone give me the death count? I've heard eighty, but that might be wrong.
EDIT: The death count for Katrina, I mean.
Over a hundred confirmed, an I believe that is Mississippi alone. Who knows how many are dead in Louisiana, much less how many will die from subsequent injuries or illnesses.

It's funny when US need help we hear all kind of exuses but when someone else need help US is the first to respond.

Hmm... Wasn't that a part of the critizism against the US in the aftermath of the tsunami? Too little too late?

But seriously, even though I disagree with Hagge's opening post, I do agree that everybody who can should support the rescue- and rebuilding-operations.

And in other news: Water, medical supplies and tents are ready to be sent from Norway. The Norwegian Red Cross is coordinating with the American Red Cross.

Super disaster in the US and Norway have not stept up to the plate.. After the sunami they wher so fast to critisize all the rich nation of the world not a word from them now....Shame on you!!

WTF, do you even know that norway is a small nation...
With 4 million people and you are talking about them like they are some cind of super power, either you are a norwegian nationalist who has owerpower your nation in your sick mind, or you are some none norwegian talking crap about norway in a strange way..

Are you norwegian,
Er du gal?? wtf,

I say we put the petty issues and haggling aside. Yes- we could likely fully recover from this disaster with little or no assistance from other countries.

But if other countries do offer any type of assistance, we should graciously accept it in the spirit its given. Giving help and accepting/appreciating help are both huge things in the area of good will.

And like I've pointed out-the person whose baby is eating fresh warm food and drinking safe clean water and has a clean dry blanket to sleep with wont care if the USA, Norway or Venezueala made it possible-they will be thankful either way.

And in the future, those who have been helped here may be quicker to respond and more generous when someone else is in their time of need-foreign or domestic.

Are you norwegian,
Er du gal?? wtf,

Vi har liksom ikke en mangel på penger da... Og nordmenn online pleier veldig ofte å være nasjonalister har jeg merket.

Also, I've heard that Hugo Chavez of Venezuela has offered aid to the US. I wonder if the government has accepted?

Haha, has he? That's funny. My respect for him has increased; we need more national leaders with tongue-in-cheek senses of humour. :D

Funny you can't think long term. That's the problem with someone of your political views.


Here's my sources(Format: Source - what I got):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Chavez - basic Chavez info
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4155936.stm - experimental Socialist technique yeilds 11% increase in factory production
http://www.cepr.net/publications/venezuela_2005_06.pdf - Chavez reverses long term economic decline, explaination of increased poverty and showing that poverty is inching back down
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1167 - economic growth for 2004 between 9 and 10%, largest in Latin America

This is all because of higher oil prices. Unlike Chile which has a dynamic economy, Venezuela is almost entirely dependent on oil prices. Look at any oil producing country and you'll notice higher growth. Socialist technique does not produce this. In fact it isn't wise long term.


http://scoop.agonist.org/archives/008418.html - little snippet, but details some small things Chavez has done for the poor that aren't reflected in poverty numbers(IE basic literacy training for half a million poor, hundreds of thousands of new children from the poor entering school for the first time, squatting poor given titles to land)

This dodges the fact that the poverty rate is still increasing and the middle class no longer exists. I'm still waiting for something that disproves the fact that this "recovery" is entirely based on petroleum prices. That leaves Venezuela vulnerable to swings.

http://www.latin-focus.com/latinfocus/countries/venezuela/venunemp.htm - shows unemployment from 1996 to April 2005. Unemployment has fallen from nearly 16% in 2002, to around 15% in 2003, then to 11% in 2004, and lowering again just slightly from the end of 2004 to April 2005. Also notice the huge jump in 02 and 03, again corresponding with the opposition's attempt to dislodge Chavez, which as I previously claimed, caused instability that hurt the economy and scared away investors.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ve.html

Unemployment rate: 17.1% (2004 est.)

Now I got a problem with the accuracy of your source.


Do I know how poor Venezuela is? Yes, yes I do. Those figures are readily avaliable, that the GDP per capita is $5,800, and that as of 2004, poverty is at 53.10%. Quite poor. Which is why, funnily enough, I'm a socialist and support Hugo Chavez.

You don't know what Chavez is to begin with. And you think a "recovery based entirely on high oil prices" is a good thing. Chavez has no plans in branching out his economy, like pro-free market leaders have done.

It's funny when US need help we hear all kind of exuses but when someone else need help US is the first to respond.
This is a SUPER disaster over 1.5 million people have lost their home!! Whole town are wiped out!! There in NOTHING there left. The looks is simular to the Sunami last year in Asia. In places the water whent in 10s of miles!!The estimated number have risen to over 3000 it can top at 5000. Yes, it's much less then the sunami where the total is never going to be known, but the best guestmate in 350.000. What we need is money and help to rebuild. If you can, please donate to American Red Cross or to your local church!!
Let's pray for all that are in need of help.
1. Keep crying about how big assholes we all are, and see how much pitty people take on you. Seriously, attacking people for not providing help you haven't asked for, is not the way to go about it.

2. Both peoples & nations of Europe are right now trying to figure out how exactly we can help you. That's a two way street. It doesn't make much difference to you, if we just dump something useless on your doorstep.
Your government have already been contacted, both by individual nations, and by the EU. Private & public fundraisings will be held all over the European nations within the next couple of weeks. Let's hope anti-European loudmouths don't adversely affect people's willingness to help in the mean time.

3. I realize a lot of Americans don't know why so many people are sick of US forign policy, and for some reason think the entire world wants every American dead. This isn't the case. We do, pretty universally, loathe your forign policy, but that has no bearing on our sympathy for the American people. Your bitchy attitude, on the other hand, may well affect private donations. Not mine though. As I doubt anyone who needs help, have time to bitch about Europeans.

4. Do not throw stones & shit. What are you doing to alleviate the crisis? You're in a much, much better position to make a difference, than any European on this forum.

5. Realize the position of your own nation. You don't need our help. Not that we can't help, but hundreds of people will not loose their lives, regardless of what the rest of the world does.
The same thing cannot be said for a country like India right now, where massive flooding is going on, plenty of people have dies, and parts of cities have been reduced to rubble. Similar disasters abounds right now. America will not take a backseat, as people are much keener on saving your asses than they are on saving a couple of thousand families from some random 3rd world country.

6. I really get an urge to flame some of you. Just what the hell are you thinking?

Chavez was upset over how the richest contry in the world had no plan to protect its own people. They had plenty of warning, scientist did predict that this year would have hurricanes that are much more violent than last year. Why is it too much to ask for the US to have some sort of strategy prepared? What really upsets me though is that you think he is an idiot for thinking that the government should have tried to protect its people.

The US did have something prepared, but the fact remains that hurricanes rarely go up that path. We did start evacuations. And we have plenty of plans on the table. Chavez is a fucking moron for saying something like that, because we have more resources then he will ever have. The US government reacted quickly when it saw Katrina in the gulf, and is protecting its people. To say it isn't.. well is stupidity beyond belief!

It's funny when US need help we hear all kind of exuses but when someone else need help US is the first to respond.
This is a SUPER disaster over 1.5 million people have lost their home!! Whole town are wiped out!! There in NOTHING there left. The looks is simular to the Sunami last year in Asia. In places the water whent in 10s of miles!!The estimated number have risen to over 3000 it can top at 5000. Yes, it's much less then the sunami where the total is never going to be known, but the best guestmate in 350.000. What we need is money and help to rebuild. If you can, please donate to American Red Cross or to your local church!!
Let's pray for all that are in need of help.
Yes, but on that note, why arent u demanding that countries from the poorer parts of Asia, Africa and South American. They r the ones u helped ,not Norway, following ur logic that America give aid, the countries it helped shld give aid back. Norway has never needed aid from America, so by ur logic it ows it nothing. But thats not how aid works. Aid goes form More-Developed countries to Less-Developed countries. America isnt a less-developed country in fact Norway has a much smaller eccomony to the U.S. You say that it will cost billions of dollars, ur goverment has billions of dollars. It doesnt need economic assistance but there r plenty of countries that do, that is where aid should go, so they can deal with their problem just like America can. I agree that the tornado is a tragedy, can i jus express my condolences 2 any involved, i can onli say that i have never experienced such problems and I hope that you are o.k and if you have lost family/property, i am deeply sorry for you. thats probably not very eloquent but i'm not very good with words.

Vi har liksom ikke en mangel på penger da... Og nordmenn online pleier veldig ofte å være nasjonalister har jeg merket.

Norge er rikt proporsjonelt i forhold til andre land, men å gi økonomisk støtte til en jævla supermakt hadde bare blitt symbolsk..
det jeg mente med najonalisme her var egentlig at en eller annen tulling trodde norge var så rikt at detkan sammenlignes med USA, spesielt med tanke på at de fleste ikke vet hvor landet ligger, er dette et opphøy selvbilde.
Men jeg tror USA greier seg helt fint, synd at dete skjeddde new orleans er en fin by, var der for ett år siden..

Peace out

Norway has never needed aid from America, .

You are forgetting a little thing that the west of europe was given after ww2,not to meniton that the americans are the ones who got oil production starded up in norway in the 70s...
If these things had not happened norway would be economicly at best as poland is....

lucky for us some plants and dinos died out and gave us oil :p

Peace out

Norge er rikt proporsjonelt i forhold til andre land, men å gi økonomisk støtte til en jævla supermakt hadde bare blitt symbolsk..
det jeg mente med najonalisme her var egentlig at en eller annen tulling trodde norge var så rikt at detkan sammenlignes med USA, spesielt med tanke på at de fleste ikke vet hvor landet ligger, er dette et opphøy selvbilde.
Men jeg tror USA greier seg helt fint, synd at dete skjeddde new orleans er en fin by, var der for ett år siden..

Peace out
While I agree with you (didn't know many online Norwegians were nationalists though), I think it's a good idea to stick to english ;)

Anyway, I just wanted to add: Why is it Americans claims to be saints when it comes to forign aid? Have you any idea how little you contribute, compared to the vast majority of other rich countries? Have you any idea what that 'forigh aid' is mostly used for?

In case you don't, here's something to consider: The US has far, far more money than anyone else. It's a size thing. You're the largest economy in the world, and you're a huge country. So while you may be contributing 50 times what Norway does, keep in mind that comparatively, Norway spends about ten times what you do on forign aid.

Also, while countries like Norway distributes aid to countries regardless of their political & economic ties to the recipants, the US does the opposite. Your great nation is devoted to helping allies & trade partners. Norway, on the other hand, helps the ones who need it.

The redblooded yanke attitude displayed by some in this thread is hyporcitical in the extreme.

While I agree with you (didn't know many online Norwegians were nationalists though), I think it's a good idea to stick to english ;)

Anyway, I just wanted to add: Why is it Americans claims to be saints when it comes to forign aid? Have you any idea how little you contribute, compared to the vast majority of other rich countries? Have you any idea what that 'forigh aid' is mostly used for?

In case you don't, here's something to consider: The US has far, far more money than anyone else. It's a size thing. You're the largest economy in the world, and you're a huge country. So while you may be contributing 50 times what Norway does, keep in mind that comparatively, Norway spends about ten times what you do on forign aid.

Also, while countries like Norway distributes aid to countries regardless of their political & economic ties to the recipants, the US does the opposite. Your great nation is devoted to helping allies & trade partners. Norway, on the other hand, helps the ones who need it.

The redblooded yanke attitude displayed by some in this thread is hyporcitical in the extreme.

Uff, this made my post wothless, I am sorry i lost the point right from the beggining, I tought some norwegian dude said that we ought to send help, but there is really nothing we can do, But the poin was something else.. :confused:

In what city you live, i live on the outskirts suburbs of oslo??

You??

The US did have something prepared, but the fact remains that hurricanes rarely go up that path. We did start evacuations. And we have plenty of plans on the table. Chavez is a fucking moron for saying something like that, because we have more resources then he will ever have. The US government reacted quickly when it saw Katrina in the gulf, and is protecting its people. To say it isn't.. well is stupidity beyond belief!

You know, when I see some comments like that, I'm tempted to start a nation with the name "Chavez" and go to the mods to ask to stop the flames.

It's called defamation of character, people. Do check the rules of NationStates, Jolt and the laws of the UK under which these forums operate. Your free speach is not totally unrestricted here.

Some people could be dragged in court and deported to venezuela with the attacks they do in their posts. Let's hope you have backings like Pat Robertson in high places...

And the same hold for this who call president Bush a dumbass, moron and so on.

I think it's reasonable to assume that the US has the economic wherewithal to deal with the aftermath of Katrina.

That said, we should welcome everyone trying to help. I think that Canada's willingness to give whatever they can is exemplary and very kind. We should thank them warmly.

I think that what the US could make use of most is not money, but manpower. I think that any country willing to send teams of specialists or just groups of volunteers should be applauded heartily and their offers accepted even if we don't "need" them.

Doing so would show that we acknowledge we are part of a global community and are willing to be humble enough to accept aid when it is well-intentioned.

First, The devastation in the US is terrible, but i have yet to see anything that indicates that it can be compared to the scale of the catastrophe of the tsunami.

We dont know the death toll yet but it is thought to be in the thousands - which is tragic, i beleive loss of life is on any scale - but close to a third of a million people were killed as a result of the events in the indian ocean in december.

Second, the help that small nations such as norway can provide in comparison to the US resources and the amount of help that our rich nations can give to developing nations is again not on the same scale.

Third, are you a troll, did you not think before you posted this thread or do you really think in that way?

*stop reading here if you dont have a sense of humour!*
___________________________________

Lastly, to the norwegians out there you should be glad if americans are asking "where is norway?" you guys have too much oil for the good of your national defence. ;)

While I agree with you (didn't know many online Norwegians were nationalists though), I think it's a good idea to stick to english ;)

Anyway, I just wanted to add: Why is it Americans claims to be saints when it comes to forign aid? Have you any idea how little you contribute, compared to the vast majority of other rich countries? Have you any idea what that 'forigh aid' is mostly used for?

In case you don't, here's something to consider: The US has far, far more money than anyone else. It's a size thing. You're the largest economy in the world, and you're a huge country. So while you may be contributing 50 times what Norway does, keep in mind that comparatively, Norway spends about ten times what you do on forign aid.

Also, while countries like Norway distributes aid to countries regardless of their political & economic ties to the recipants, the US does the opposite. Your great nation is devoted to helping allies & trade partners. Norway, on the other hand, helps the ones who need it.

The redblooded yanke attitude displayed by some in this thread is hyporcitical in the extreme.

I think it's pretty unfair that you paint America as doing relatively less than other countries. You may indeed be right about the amount of money/aid gotten directly from the US government, but you are completely discounting all the private charity work that American citizens do. You are forgetting all the American charitable organizations that contribute money that doesn't show up on a Washington DC budget.

It's called libel, people. Do check the rules of NationStates, Jolt and the laws of the UK under which these forums operate. Your free speach is not totally unrestricted here.

It's not libel, at least under UK law. Libel requires that a false statement of fact be made. "Chavez is a fucking idiot" is a statement of opinion.

It's not libel, at least under UK law. Libel requires that a false statement of fact be made. "Chavez is a fucking idiot" is a statement of opinion.
Corrected to defamation of character.

Thanks for the heads up.

I think it's pretty unfair that you paint America as doing relatively less than other countries. You may indeed be right about the amount of money/aid gotten directly from the US government, but you are completely discounting all the private charity work that American citizens do. You are forgetting all the American charitable organizations that contribute money that doesn't show up on a Washington DC budget.
In that case, we need to distinguish America and Americans. I don't think I'm being the least bit unfair regarding America's contributions. Especially considering some of the completely wrong assumptions going on in this thread.

That said, Americans do indeed deserve credit for being some of the most helpful people in the world. Privately. But as a country, your forign aid is a joke, that often causes much more harm than relief. Trust me, I too wish that wasn't true.

Myballsarehuge, sorry mate. I'm not from Norway at all. I just understand most of it, and speak a few words. Don't ask me to write it though :p

"This is all because of higher oil prices. Unlike Chile which has a dynamic economy, Venezuela is almost entirely dependent on oil prices. Look at any oil producing country and you'll notice higher growth. Socialist technique does not produce this. In fact it isn't wise long term.

This dodges the fact that the poverty rate is still increasing and the middle class no longer exists. I'm still waiting for something that disproves the fact that this "recovery" is entirely based on petroleum prices. That leaves Venezuela vulnerable to swings."

The economy grew by a remarkable 16.8% in 2004 when compared to 2003, led mostly by non-petroleum sectors. - Nationmaster.com(emphasis mine)

Not only that, but according to this BBC report http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2549589.stm from 2002, Oil accounts for 1/2 of Government revenue and 1/3 of GDP, making Venesuela dependent on oil to be sure, but to say she is *entirely* dependent on oil is to ignore the other 2/3 of her GDP, made up of other industries.

Also, if you look at the poverty numbers on the Center for Economic and Policy Research(CEPR) link, you'd see that from 2003 - 2004, poverty fell 0.9%, indicating that poverty is falling - albeit slowly - rather than increasing. Plus like I said, the poverty jumps up during the economic downturn, which was caused by investor fright which was caused by political instability, which was caused by the opponants to Chavez starting a big strike, an attempted coup, and a recall referendum.

I'd honestly like to see where you get the info that the Middle class no longer exists. Seriously, I googled "Venezuelan economy," and though I did find both pro and anti Chavez stuff out there, I never found anything that describes a destruction of a middle class anywhere. I found that the established Middle and Upper classes don't in general like Chavez very much, but for them not to like him, they'd need to exist, no?
First I'd need proof that there actually was a pre-Chavez but post 1980's, healthy, large middle class that grew or remained the same up until Chavez was elected, and then that Chavez came in and utterly destroyed it.

"http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ve.html

Unemployment rate: 17.1% (2004 est.)

Now I got a problem with the accuracy of your source."

This will then be irresolvable. The LatinFocus group appears reputable, has no good motivation to falsify records, publishes yearly economic forecasts and a newsletter and has entirely dedicated itself to "professionals seeking reliable information on Latin American economies"(LatinFocus profile). I mean it's not some blog, it's a reputable economic society, which doesn't appear to have any ties to Venezuela btw, in case that's what you were thinking.

"You don't know what Chavez is to begin with. And you think a "recovery based entirely on high oil prices" is a good thing. Chavez has no plans in branching out his economy, like pro-free market leaders have done."

I am tempted to ask what Chavez is, but if I hear another crackpot call him a dictator one more time, I'm gonna snap, so I think I'll just let this one go. As to his plans, that is something neither I nor you can claim to have any knowledge of at all. He has ideas that he has announced, like that democratic factory management thing, but we aren't in his head, we don't know if he has plans to diversify the economy, anymore than we know what he plans on eating for supper tonight.

In what city you live, i live on the outskirts suburbs of oslo??

You??

Oh I feel sorry for you, it must be so hard ^^

didn't know many online Norwegians were nationalists though

Well its not a big surprise a lot of Norwegians are proud of Norway.

[QUOTE]If these things had not happened norway would be economicly at best as poland is....[QUOTE]

No... We would still have had the oil.

There is a legal definition of 'idiot' out there so I think you could make libel stick.

After all, Chavez is not legally an idiot.

Ok, you challenged me to prove whether Chavez hated the US, not you.

I proved it. I could not care less whether you hate the US or not.
you proved that Chavez used a harsh anti-US Gov tone ...and that he is critical of U.S. economic and foreign policy...

But if you think that proves someone "hates" the US...then in your opinion...most of the World hates the US.

First I'm a Scandinavia living in USA. And almost all missunder stand. I asked where is Norway. That was in responce to the Nastyness that nwas said by an Norwigian official!! SEcond Norway is not poor. They have the biggest oil reserv in Europe.
You should think. If some other nation offer to help that showes that they think like men and with thier heart. And I think Norway should have asap made a official speak and offer help. Help dosen't have to be in millions or Billions. Remember the avalance in Norway? US send rescue people and dogs to help... see we DID HELP NORWAY!! but that is not important the important is that we need to help each other....
God bless you all and please pray for the people that need help, arond the world.

1.: I'm deeply sorry for all those who have lost somebody or something they deeply loved due to Katrina. Watching the evening news and seeing some pictures makes me like :( :eek: :eek: :(

2.: Some of you asked for money from foriegn nations: We could try to save some money and send it to you but (although we are among the richest nations) our money would probably look like a little tip to a nation like yours - and I bet some of you would be too proud to let a nation of 8 million help a nation of some hundred millions (not sure about the number because of the illegals...).

3.: Some of you mentioned manpower as a good way to help. This is a very good idea and I think we'd do that, if only our country was not in the situation we have at the moment. There has been a flooding (have you heard about it? Switzerland, parts of Germany and Austria) and we're just happy to have electricity back - still fighting against masses of water. Every single man is needed at home. Thousands of families have lost their homes and some alpine valleys are still cut off from the rest of the world. I bet they'd be mad at us if we'd send their only chance to survive to the USA...

So what should we do for you except praying and hoping that there are not too many deads?

actually Norway is just east of Greenland and Iceland, north of Denmark, and west of Sweden.

It'd be nice if they had some spare personnel that specialized in cleaning up fetid aftermaths of floods but seeing that the people displaced by the storm would equal 1/3 of the population of the entire country isn't this all a bit much?

I personally like Norwegians. I've met some before and they are ultra-nice people. Others too, that I know that have served in NATO said the Norwegians were really nice during army exercises and would come out of their houses and give cake, hot chocolate, and skiing lessons (since everyone knows that Norwegians are born with skis on their feet...

On a separate note, I don't think people should worry to much about Norwegian help. It's completely voluntary, we're not forcing Norwegians to help, and though it would be nice if Norway did help, it's not their country that's battered up and therefore have no obligations to help. Especially with all of the lawlessness going around, it might endanger Norwegians going to help.

Heh, Bush took the money that New Orleans was going to spend on levees and spent it on the Iraq invasion.

Now Chavez is looking like a hero.







My memory is muddy, what's this river that i'm in?

Norway is one of the Nordic countries, occupying the western part of the Scandinavian peninsula, with a total area of 323 878 sq km. It is bordered by the North Sea, the Norwegian Sea and Barents Sea in the west, Russia, Finland and Sweden in the east, and the Skagerrak (an arm of the North Sea) in the south.

Unemployment rate: 17.1% (2004 est.)
Estimate, so it's not reliable

an unreliable estimate?

While I don't really like Chavez all that much, at least he shows he's willing to play ball. Perhaps if he gets off of his conspiracy theories there could be a lot more cooperation.
actually the conspiracies are true and theres no way he should cooperate with an oil terrorist like Bush--afterall he saw what kinda chaos Bush plunged Haiti into after he kidnapped their president

Look, it's really quite simple. Chavez hates the US. Now, why would a man that hates this country offer his help. 3 choices:

1. He's a moron
2. He's a good man
3. He just want's to look well in front of everyone.

1. Well, that he can't be. I don't like the guy, but a moron would not be able to worm his way into the presidency and mantain it.
2. Riiiight.... A good man does not support suversive guerrillas, shoot his own people, and manipulate referendums.
3. Well, look at the scenario:

Chavez sends his proposal to Bush. Bush, as arrogant and powerful as he is will say: "Well, i can't have a 3rd world country helping us, we'll look like weak idiots, besides, the US has more than enough money to cover this. No need to swallow our pride in this one." Of course, that double-speak, manipulator man has already foreseen this situation (as most people with common sense have too) and understood he will be refused. In the end, he loses nothing, no money or oil, and looks good in front of the international community.

Awww, isn't that nice. Chavez once again shows how selfless he is...

NOT
Chavez has done things for his people--what has Bush done for America besides divide it?

I shouldn't laugh. but there is something inheritly funny about Chaves offering America aid. It's kind like Rawanda sending over food packages...
Unlike Bush-at least Chavez thinks about the plight of the American people

Unlike Bush-at least Chavez thinks about the plight of the American people
I'm sure that Chavez is really concerned with the American people and not stroking his public standing.
I'm also sure he rides a pink unicorn, has tea parties with stuffed animals, and is the sweetest, most carring person ever.

an unreliable estimate?
Less reliable then something up to date, it might have been a good estimate when it was made, but the sources Kroisistan seem more up to date:

http://www.latin-focus.com/content/countries/ven_gifs/venunemp.gif (from http://www.latin-focus.com/latinfocus/countries/venezuela/vengdp.htm)

Long live the People's Revolution! Socialism is the answer!

Corrected to defamation of character.

Thanks for the heads up.
if someone is a public figure youre given more leeway to make defamatory statements about them. Plus its not defamation if its an opinion

you proved that Chavez used a harsh anti-US Gov tone ...and that he is critical of U.S. economic and foreign policy...

But if you think that proves someone "hates" the US...then in your opinion...most of the World hates the US.


Well......... YES!!!!!!!!

And why the hell not??

Hasn't the US interfered on international conflicts enough????

At the beginning of the century, only for it's own greedy needs, the US sent marines to the frontier of Colombia-Panama, stopping the colombian army and creating the republic of Panama, only to benefit of it's canal for 100 years. Later, they interfered on the government of Santiago Allende (democratically elected) and took him down, only because he was socialist. That opened the way for Augusto Pinochet, a dictator that sew destruction and death for decades. In Honduras, the US chose to allign itself with the Contras, a suversive group on the country, therefore helping to create more chaos in the country. In the eighties, Iran and Iraq were fighting each other. The US officially supported Iraq, sending millions upon millions of help to them, however, at the same time, secretly, the US engaged on a most unhonorable act, as such is secretly selling weapons TO IRAN at the same time!!!

This is only the tip of the iceberg. Now, you ask, do most countries in the world hate the US, the answer is YES!!

you proved that Chavez used a harsh anti-US Gov tone ...and that he is critical of U.S. economic and foreign policy...

But if you think that proves someone "hates" the US...then in your opinion...most of the World hates the US.
Chavez doesnt hate America he hates Bush (just like everyone else in the world)

Dont confuse Bush with America when he has far more in common with the Saudi Royal Family then any True American

I'm sure that Chavez is really concerned with the American people and not stroking his public standing.
I'm also sure he rides a pink unicorn, has tea parties with stuffed animals, and is the sweetest, most carring person ever.
Ok maybe he is doin it for PR but it doesnt change the fact that hes a far superior leader then Americas dictator

Oh I feel sorry for you, it must be so hard ^^



No... We would still have had the oil.


I meant if we didnt have the oil!!!
And why do you feel sorry for me, do you live in some hillbillypart of norway? :p

The US is rich and powerful. It can handle this. Indonesia is poor and weak, they needed help.

That's excellent on how Krosistan consistently denies the reality, that the economic recovery in Venezuela is tenous at best, and iffy.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050901/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_us_drugs

Maybe Chavez is coming to his senses.

That's excellent on how Krosistan consistently denies the reality, that the economic recovery in Venezuela is tenous at best, and iffy.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050901/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_us_drugs

Maybe Chavez is coming to his senses.
and Bush is making America a debtor nation to China so whats your point

And we all thought he was bad?

I say we get Robertson, tar and feather him and run'em out of town on a rail(not sure if I got the last part right...)

And we all thought he was bad?

I say we get Robertson, tar and feather him and run'em out of town on a rail(not sure if I got the last part right...)
Robertson is the Christian Taliban and he should be deported to Venezuela to be tried as a terrorist

and Bush is making America a debtor nation to China so whats your point

No.

Please, grow up.

I think the countries that were hit by the tsunami should give us 25million dollars. WE gave the money to them when they needed it, but do you think you will see public service announcements in India with retired presidents razing awareness about the tragedy in the US? absolutely not!!!

Hey folks, lets try and leave Pat Robertson alone in this thread? He makes one comment and everyone wants to tar and feather him ignoring the fact charities he's established have raised and distributed since 1978 nearly 1 billion dollars in aid and relief to improverished people.

What Chavez is doing is a nice gesture this is true. In this he has better than Castro, however it doesnt change my thoughts about his government. It doesnt change the fact I think he'd a paranoid nutjob who kicked out the DEA because he thinks they were spying on him. Who's threatened in the past to support FARC guerillas in Columbia's civil war and made other comments which can be viewed as openly hostile to the entire region. This one act of charity doesnt change who he is.

And Venezula isnt the only country offering aid either. There is a plethora of countries which are offering some form of aid.

Offers have been received from Russia, Japan, Canada, France, Honduras, Germany, Venezuela, Jamaica, Australia, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, Hungary, Colombia, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Mexico, China, South Korea, Israel, the United Arab Emirates, NATO and the Organization of American States, the spokesman said.

Also, the Singapore embassy said the Southeast Asian country was sending three Chinook helicopters with 38 air force personnel from military exercises in Texas, to Louisiana to support relief efforts by the Texas National Guard.

President Chandrika Bandaranaike of Sri Lanka, in China on a state visit, sent messages of sympathy to Washington while her government contributed $25,000 through the American Red Cross.

is a plethora of countries which are offering some form of aid.

Has the US actually said 'yes' to any of these offers yet?

It doesnt change the fact I think he'd a paranoid nutjob who kicked out the DEA because he thinks they were spying on him

Doesn't he have a right to be paranoid? I mean, not only do all of the upper class folk in Venezuela (and most of the rest of the world) hate him but a coup was already attempted against him. He was kidnapped. Wouldn't you be paranoid? especially after that.

I want to apologize to everyone here. Now is a sensitive time for me, and all citizens of this country. Please try to be understanding.

Chavez.. well... I'll retract my comments on him being an ass, because I haven't met him personally.

Yes, he would be paranoid.. because he tried a coup before and knows how it works.

Hey folks, lets try and leave Pat Robertson alone in this thread? He makes one comment and everyone wants to tar and feather him ignoring the fact charities he's established have raised and distributed since 1978 nearly 1 billion dollars in aid and relief to improverished people.

--snip--

Robertson has said a whole lot more crazy things than this latest crazy statement. As such, he is a valid target for comment.

I want to apologize to everyone here. Now is a sensitive time for me, and all citizens of this country. Please try to be understanding.

Chavez.. well... I'll retract my comments on him being an ass, because I haven't met him personally.

Yes, he would be paranoid.. because he tried a coup before and knows how it works.

You know, I was actually in the middle of a somewhat indignant reply. In retrospect I'm glad I checked for new posts before making mine.

It's all good man. As always I welcome the opportunity to sharpen my skills at defending one of my favorite politicians. :)

You know, I was actually in the middle of a somewhat indignant reply. In retrospect I'm glad I checked for new posts before making mine.

It's all good man. As always I welcome the opportunity to sharpen my skills at defending one of my favorite politicians. :)

I really don't like Chavez, but that's because of one of my friends who fled his rule with his family.. he was just in the middle class. His dad was a lawyer I believe.. and his mom was a reporter...

I really don't like Chavez, but that's because of one of my friends who fled his rule with his family.. he was just in the middle class. His dad was a lawyer I believe.. and his mom was a reporter...

Oh believe me, I know you don't like Chavez. :p I've been around the bloc here at Nationstates even if it's sometimes just lurking, so I've seen your stance in many a Chavez thread before.

I just like him because from what I've seen, when time comes to put the cards on the table, to walk the walk, Chavez is a good man. I mean I couldn't when it came down to it say that about many politicians of this day and age. Plus he's a vocal voice for Socialism, with many new ideas for fusing those principles with twentyfirst century institutions and realities - something I not only like and agree with, but respect as it is so rare and gutsy a position.

Well, we don't really have to agree. It's the beauty of the internet. :D Peace, man.

Norway has no heavy-lift capability. I'm not sure what a country of only a few million people is supposed to send, anyway.

Long live the People's Revolution! Socialism is the answer!
You know it, brother... up the proles!

Universe, Milky way, Sol system, Planet Earth, Europe, Scandinavia, west of Sweden + north of Denmark :)

You know it, brother... up the proles!


*joins in the spirit of things*
Save a worker - Hang a Capitalist!

http://members.fortunecity.com/stalinmao/Soviet/propaganda/partijalenin.jpg


:D

Damn it won't show my good Lenin poster... :(

Fascist imageholder site...

I want to apologize to everyone here. Now is a sensitive time for me, and all citizens of this country. Please try to be understanding. ;) Hey, no biggie. The last five years have been a sensitive time for all citizens of that particular country. We're used to it by now.
Chavez.. well... I'll retract my comments on him being an ass, because I haven't met him personally. :eek: Wow. Now that's apologetic. I'm staggered. Who'd-a thunk it?
Yes, he would be paranoid.. because he tried a coup before and knows how it works. :p Ah, now that's more like it. A return to form.

:D Fore!

I don't mind if he helps, so long as he doesn't ask for much in turn. I really feel that aid to the US is counterproductive for the US's well being, but he, being a private citizen that singlehandedly controls a nation, is free to help out. I just wonder where his blood brother, Fidel, is during all of this.

One congressman just said there is maybe 10.000 dead now. Do to the flooding when the levals was breached. People was trapt in their homes as a wall of water came crushing dowm.
But the way we would never turn away to help any nation and we would never turn away help that was offer to us... And by offer help that would show that you are our friends...

So far 23 nation are willing and are sending help.... Austraila, Sweden, Japan, Israel, Venusuela, Canada and more... thank you!!