NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4339099
If anyone in the world thinks that they are insulated from this, think again. It talks about the obvious effects, but also the global effects from this. Already, Indonesia's central bank has tightened the money supply in an emergency meeting, in order to stave off the expected inflation. I would expect that some of the smaller economies will not get through this unscathed.

Again, America pulling down the whole world...

Again, America pulling down the whole world...
You love to hate, don't you?

Again, America pulling down the whole world...

Thats not fair.

Its amazing given how 'advanced' we are. Nature can just bring us to our knees.

I know. Local transport companies are complaining loudly about rising oil prices and are planning to, once again, raise fares on the consumers.

But yet there are still people who think that climatic change is a secondary topic compared with "the fragile state of our economy". Well, here's evidence that suggests maybe "the fragile state of our economy" is linked very closely to climatic change.

Gas prices are rising in Europe too. :(

Again, America pulling down the whole world...

Why don't you come down here and say that to the victims and their families?

Again, America pulling down the whole world...

Yeah that was our plan get hit with a fuck'n HURRICANE so we can screw YOUR country up. If wherever the hell you are from is full of worthless parasites like you it's be best if you all die painfully. You = A waste of biomass.

Again, America pulling down the whole world...

Yes, we're responsible for hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, droughts and wildfires now, didn't you know? :rolleyes:

Knock off the flamebaiting.

Yeah that was our plan get hit with a fuck'n HURRICANE so we can screw YOUR country up. If wherever the hell you are from is full of worthless parasites like you it's be best if you all die painfully. You = A waste of biomass.

OOOO peace my fellow American lol

Yeah that was our plan get hit with a fuck'n HURRICANE so we can screw YOUR country up. If wherever the hell you are from is full of worthless parasites like you it's be best if you all die painfully. You = A waste of biomass.

Officially warned for flaming.

Ummm then delete it. Scum is scum and trhat fellow is scum.

Yes, we're responsible for hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, droughts and wildfires now, didn't you know? :rolleyes:

You forgot meteors.

Ummm then delete it. Scum is scum and trhat fellow is scum.

Did you not get the hint? Namecalling is not allowed.
Don't push for another warning.

You forgot meteors.

You're right. Oh, and we genetically altered orangutans to be hairless, grey, scrawny, and with big heads with big eyes, tiny mouths and two airholes, as well.

Not to mention we're also responsible for the Black Plague decimating Europe in medieval times....

We're versatile like that.

You forgot meteors.


No the zionist israelis cause meteors...

So clarify the rules for me. Insulting and mocking the pain of thousands of human beings is not against the rules. Insulting one human being who happens to be on the forum is against the rules. Correct?

I know. Local transport companies are complaining loudly about rising oil prices and are planning to, once again, raise fares on the consumers.

But yet there are still people who think that climatic change is a secondary topic compared with "the fragile state of our economy". Well, here's evidence that suggests maybe "the fragile state of our economy" is linked very closely to climatic change.
Climate change is irreversable. Our best bet is to learn how to adapt to it, not to try and change it again.

No the zionist israelis cause meteors...Irrelevant, since everyone knows that anything done by the Israelis is the responsability of the US. That's old hat, heck the US picked up responsability for the Israelis before the US became responsible for causing all the dandruff in the world.

So clarify the rules for me. Insulting and mocking the pain of thousands of human beings is not against the rules. Insulting one human being who happens to be on the forum is against the rules. Correct?

It all depends on the context of what has been said. In this case, The South Islands' words were not enough to warrant a warning; however, in your case, you openly threatened his life, and the lives of the people in his country, which is absolutely not tolerated on this forum. Your case was obviously much more serious.

Gas prices are rising in Europe too. :(
I'm surprised. I actually thought that Eurasian markets would see a drop in oil prices, as the US is able to import less. I guess most of it is speculation. In any case, everyone will be effected. It will hurt other nation's exports greatly. I believe that it's the main reason why the world will help out, whether they want to (or even need to) or not.

You forgot meteors.

What about Volcanoes? And Ninja Attacks?

It all depends on the context of what has been said. In this case, The South Islands' words were not enough to warrant a warning; however, in your case, you openly threatened his life, and the lives of the people in his country, which is absolutely not tolerated on this forum. Your case was obviously much more serious.

Read. It says "if wherever you are from" I fnd it highly unlikely that an entire nation could be as intellectually deprived as that poster. IF.

Read. It says "if wherever you are from" I fnd it highly unlikely that an entire nation could be as intellectually deprived as that poster. IF.
Can we stop arguing about this?

Read. It says "if wherever you are from" I fnd it highly unlikely that an entire nation could be as intellectually deprived as that poster. IF.

Yet you continue to insult him, even after being warned, and being threatened for another warning?

Nevertheless, it is still a threat. Take up any further argument to the Moderation forum, rather than hi-jacking this topic.

What about Volcanoes? And Ninja Attacks?
Volacano's of course. I don't know about Ninja attacks. Anyone know if the US is to blame for Ninja Attacks?

Volacano's of course. I don't know about Ninja attacks. Anyone know if the US is to blame for Ninja Attacks?

Nah, France is in charge of the ninja attacks. And the kittens.

Okay, South Islands made a stupid remark. But guess what? It is over. Get over it, guys.

I agree that it was a sad thing that Hurricane Katrina hit hard but I am pretty sure that most of you people have never heard about the flood in India during late July this year. Ironically, India was hit as bad as Louisiana during their flood and yet the U.S showed almost no coverage of India. I am beginning to think that most of these people in the U.S are all hypocritical scum bags who try to make the appearance that they care when they really dont and when something like Katrina happens they start pretending like it is all a very sad thing when they really dont give a shit. They will of course make a huge issue over something like this complaining to everyone in the fucking world that THIS happened to them when in other areas similar issues are happening and they really dont give a shit. Honestly I think this Katrina issue was a slap to the face by mother nature for ignoring the issues about other people.

The post above is a little bit rude, but it is a fair point, the response of the people in any country is usually one of "Why worry, when it's all so far away?" It may seem harsh if you're on the receiving end, but that's the way things are, it works both ways.

The post above is a little bit rude, but it is a fair point, the response of the people in any country is usually one of "Why worry, when it's all so far away?" It may seem harsh if you're on the receiving end, but that's the way things are, it works both ways.
Most disasters that happen in the world do not scream for attention because they end up having little to no impact in anyone's life. Katrina seems different. That's why I'm now surprised that the tsunami got as much attention as it did. It was big, disastorous, and deplorable. But outside SE Asia, it didn't have a direct impact, save for Sweden, who lost almost a thousand citizens. The entire thing is said, but I'm afraid that's how humans work. It's not just Americans, either. It's everyone. I bet the Indians in Bombay that know about Katrina care less about it.

I agree that it was a sad thing that Hurricane Katrina hit hard but I am pretty sure that most of you people have never heard about the flood in India during late July this year. Ironically, India was hit as bad as Louisiana during their flood and yet the U.S showed almost no coverage of India. I am beginning to think that most of these people in the U.S are all hypocritical scum bags who try to make the appearance that they care when they really dont and when something like Katrina happens they start pretending like it is all a very sad thing when they really dont give a shit. They will of course make a huge issue over something like this complaining to everyone in the fucking world that THIS happened to them when in other areas similar issues are happening and they really dont give a shit. Honestly I think this Katrina issue was a slap to the face by mother nature for ignoring the issues about other people.

It's really undeniable that people in the United States care more (or, maybe more accurately, more people care) when bad things like this happen in their own country. I can't imagine this personality trait not being common through out the world.

Most disasters that happen in the world do not scream for attention because they end up having little to no impact in anyone's life. Katrina seems different.

That's unfair. I think disasters have a big impact on the lives of the people that are hit by the disasters.

That's unfair. I think disasters have a big impact on the lives of the people that are hit by the disasters.
I did not mean that. What I did mean is that disasters often have little or no effect on those that weren't hit by them. Life for me goes on as normal despite that cyclone in Bangladesh, or that earthquake in Central Asia. At least, it has no immediate, tangible impact on me if that makes you feel better. This may be different, because, as I have said, it will impact the global economy. Indonesia's Central Bank raised interest rates in an emergency meeting after Katrina, because they feared its inflationary effects. Did the Fed raise interest rates after the tsunami for fears of inflation?

Most disasters that happen in the world do not scream for attention because they end up having little to no impact in anyone's life. Katrina seems different. That's why I'm now surprised that the tsunami got as much attention as it did. It was big, disastorous, and deplorable. But outside SE Asia, it didn't have a direct impact, save for Sweden, who lost almost a thousand citizens. The entire thing is said, but I'm afraid that's how humans work. It's not just Americans, either. It's everyone. I bet the Indians in Bombay that know about Katrina care less about it.
ironic, isn't it. the first thing people in a region say when they are hit by some great natural disaster is "where are the americans?" And shortly there after, we show up and offer whatever aid we can. But when we get a taste of nature's fury, the international community offers its sympathies, then hunkers down and braces for the repercussions to impact them.

ironic, isn't it. the first thing people in a region say when they are hit by some great natural disaster is "where are the americans?" And shortly there after, we show up and offer whatever aid we can. But when we get a taste of nature's fury, the international community offers its sympathies, then hunkers down and braces for the repercussions to impact them.
It is a bit. Many other Americans think that this is justification for stopping aid. I don't. I don't even see it as a reason for the world to send care packages and monetary aid. I love to see everyone else's egos inflate to the point where, when they collapse, they see just how weak and morally bankrupt they really are, and how they were weak, like leeches, feeding off the strong to hide their weaknesses and the solutions.

ironic, isn't it. the first thing people in a region say when they are hit by some great natural disaster is "where are the americans?" And shortly there after, we show up and offer whatever aid we can. But when we get a taste of nature's fury, the international community offers its sympathies, then hunkers down and braces for the repercussions to impact them.
You may not realise it, but you have answered your own question. When the Third World suffers a disaster, the first thing is does is request aid. And so it usually receives some, although usually inadequate amounts. So far, the US has requested no outside assistance, so it has received none. You may recall the Kursk disaster, when aid was potentially available, but was not requested until too late.

You may not realise it, but you have answered your own question. When the Third World suffers a disaster, the first thing is does is request aid. And so it usually receives some, although usually inadequate amounts. So far, the US has requested no outside assistance, so it has received none. You may recall the Kursk disaster, when aid was potentially available, but was not requested until too late.
The US really doesn't need it. In fact, aid would worsen the problem. However, other forms of "aid" will come in the form of private investments, mostly to get the refineries and casinos going again.

bump

You know for once I would like to see one other nation get there head out of there own.. nvm and help us for once like we help them in times of need ( agreed we could do a lot better but still we try to help), but see I don’t think that will happen any time soon because there to busy hating us.. like always

You know for once I would like to see one other nation get there head out of there own.. nvm and help us for once like we help them in times of need ( agreed we could do a lot better but still we try to help), but see I don’t think that will happen any time soon because there to busy hating us.. like always
Direct aid for the US is counterproductive. If we do the recovery ourselves, it forces us to look inside ourselves. A lot of countries just don't want to do that, because they fear that the inside is too ugly.

Okay, South Islands made a stupid remark. But guess what? It is over. Get over it, guys.


I stand 100% by my previous statement. I do not mean this as an attack on any one person.

This hurricane proves that America can no longer afford to ignore the realities of manmade climate change and its potential consequences. The consensus is that global warming defiantly had an effect with Katrina, the results being a major U.S. city completely destroyed and much of the surrounding coastline devastated (more damage then terrorists could ever hope to do). And it is only the beginning of the hurricane season (there expecting seven to nine more such storms, sit back and watch the disasters). If nothing is done it will only get worse, and I think we all can agree that the economic costs of doing nothing is greater then the costs of the reforms that are so desperately needed.

It is not like the technology and ideas do not currently exist. For those who read Scientific American, The New Yorker, or the Economist, it is common knowledge that there currently exist plans upon plans to prevent global catastrophe thought up by the world’s best minds. Thee Technology currently exists to maximize energy efficiency, minimize waste, and move the Modern Economy beyond fossil fuels by 2050 (fossil fuels by the way are more valuable when used for things other then energy production). The U.S. government is however currently lacks the scientific literacy and leadership to implement any of these economic reforms.

If anything good can come out of this tragedy its that the leadership and public will start taking climate change seriously. A major metropolitan area being under water is not just Hollywood, its real life…

Lets not go back to normalcy…

Normalcy: http://www.markfiore.com/animation/vacation.html

Not to be vindictive but it is somewhat ironic that an uncharacteristically severe hurricane, unboubtedly engendered by global warming, has struck the principal nation on earth who refused to subscribe to the Kyoto treaty. Katrina is a situation mainifested by Bush's refusal to operate suing a degree of foresight, and in attempting to maintain the current economic situation in the U.S.A., he serves only to harm it. I remain utterly assured that the principal global priority for the present decade must be the development of a viable, safe and non-pollutant locomotion fuel, and the U.S.A., with the scientific dominance of NASA, ought to assume a major role in any such project.

These ideas are being further investigated, perfected and researched. There are hybrids vehicles on the roads already. But to say that humans are to blame for Katrina is a misnomer. The hurricane cycle is where hurricanes get stronger every thirty years. Believe it or not, there was a very strong one back in 1909(? or so). It is a cycle.

I'm all for research into better technology, and I feel we must move towards nuclear fission (for now, until nuclear fusion is perfected). Vehicles are moving towards hybrid technology (which is selling in record amounts).

To say the US government is doing nothing (or is inadequate in its current plans) is wrong and totally off based. Have you ever been following news or are you just following the chirping of greens across the world?

Also to say there will be more storms in the vicinity of that area is another misnomer. Storms rarely go up there. But they have in the past (in the 1900s, and in 1969 as well). I dislike people who try to raise unnecessary fear... I dislike people who use slippery slope arguments.. I dislike people who ignore the facts of technological advancement.

And that little flash... blows your credibility.

Iwas wondering when the "It's Bush's fault" thread would show up. Didn't take you guys long at all. Did you know Bush killed Lincoln too? By the way, Global Warming is bullshit. Just thought I'd let ya know. Your welcome
-edit- Did you know Bush spawns tornados in Kansas too?!

I'm rather shocked at the hoardes of idiots in here starting political threads on this disaster. My, if my uncle (one who lost everything in New Orleans) had a chance with some of these people here... :mad: :mp5: (My uncle, and my aunt moved to New Orleans about a month ago to retire)

Iwas wondering when the "It's Bush's fault" thread would show up. Didn't take you guys long at all. Did you know Bush killed Lincoln too? By the way, Global Warming is bullshit. Just thought I'd let ya know. Your welcome
-edit- Did you know Bush spawns tornados in Kansas too?!

Did I say it was "all Bush's fault", no! He did not cause this disaster but he has consistently ignored (and at times even activly undermined) all attempts to create stable climate mangement. It's not just him (he simply the best example), but the entire government, Democrats and Republicans. Clinton did not care much about climate change either...

And I callenge you to back up that claim that global warming "is bullshit"!

Global warming exists, but it's ridiculous and foolish to castigate the US for the problem lone. Our emissions are 20% of the world total and tons of C02 emitted are increasing slowly (about 1%), and Europe's are flat. Asia accounts for 18% and the tons of CO2 released are growing by 9-10% per year. If we're going to stop climate change, we have to force it on Asia most of all, or we'll just be hurting ourselves while the problem worsens.

And I callenge you to back up that claim that global warming "is bullshit"!
Global Warming is Bullshit! (http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles%202004/Winter2003-4/global_warming.pdf)

These ideas are being further investigated, perfected and researched. There are hybrids vehicles on the roads already. But to say that humans are to blame for Katrina is a misnomer. The hurricane cycle is where hurricanes get stronger every thirty years. Believe it or not, there was a very strong one back in 1909(? or so). It is a cycle.


I did not say that humans were to blame for Katrina, I said that the consensus is that climate change had an effect with Katrina. And climate change will only have greater effect upon hurricanes if the current policies of limitless fossil fuel based growth remain in place. The effects of global warming is not just limited to such things as stronger hurricanes and melting polar ice caps; where I live the oceans are warming (it is believe they can no longer store CO2 and are releasing it into the attmosphere) and spring flowers around the world are blooming one week early.


I'm all for research into better technology, and I feel we must move towards nuclear fission (for now, until nuclear fusion is perfected). Vehicles are moving towards hybrid technology (which is selling in record amounts).

To say the US government is doing nothing (or is inadequate in its current plans) is wrong and totally off based. Have you ever been following news or are you just following the chirping of greens across the world?


I have been listening to the experts! If you think the U.S. government has done anything substancal byound delay then you have no knowledge of what is really going on.


Also to say there will be more storms in the vicinity of that area is another misnomer. Storms rarely go up there. But they have in the past (in the 1900s, and in 1969 as well). I dislike people who try to raise unnecessary fear... I dislike people who use slippery slope arguments.. I dislike people who ignore the facts of technological advancement.

And that little flash... blows your credibility.

Why does that little flash blow my credibility? Because it undermines your belief that we are making progress on this issue (refutes a lot of what you said about government action and technological proggress).

I did not say that humans were to blame for Katrina, I said that the consensus is that climate change had an effect with Katrina. And climate change will only have greater effect upon hurricanes if the current policies of limitless fossil fuel based growth remain in place. The effects of global warming is not just limited to such things as stronger hurricanes and melting polar ice caps; where I live the oceans are warming (it is believe they can no longer store CO2 and are releasing it into the attmosphere) and spring flowers around the world are blooming one week early.

This is not telling the whole picture, because hurricanes take place in cycles. There was a hurricane this strong back in 1909.. there are experts who take my side on this one. We are also moving away from fossil fuels (or reducing consumption). The energy bill that went through is addressing alternative energies.


I have been listening to the experts! If you think the U.S. government has done anything substancal byound delay then you have no knowledge of what is really going on.

NO! I have been listening to the experts! You have not been.

Why does that little flash blow my credibility? Because it undermines your belief that we are making progress on this issue (refutes a lot of what you said about government action and technological proggress).

It is a stupid anti-Bush flash that is not needed right now. It doesn't refuse jack shit....

We are indeed making progress.

Global warming exists, but it's ridiculous and foolish to castigate the US for the problem lone. Our emissions are 20% of the world total and tons of C02 emitted are increasing slowly (about 1%), and Europe's are flat. Asia accounts for 18% and the tons of CO2 released are growing by 9-10% per year. If we're going to stop climate change, we have to force it on Asia most of all, or we'll just be hurting ourselves while the problem worsens.

The concessions made to the Third World were neccessary if they were to sign up at all (they are still undeveloped). We in the West are the highest developed, have the technology and financal resources to begin reform now, and contary to popular belief switching our economy to a less energy consuming model would contribute to economic growth. For example, 90.5% of the energy produce by the burning of coal is lost due to inefficiences in the system.

The concessions made to the Third World were neccessary if they were to sign up at all (they are still undeveloped). We in the West are the highest developed, have the technology and financal resources to begin reform now, and contary to popular belief switching our economy to a less energy consuming model would contribute to economic growth. For example, 90.5% of the energy produce by the burning of coal is lost due to inefficiences in the system.

These countries that are producing the pollution are literally swimming in cash, be it foreign, domestic, or government. There's no reason why China and India can't be held accountable, they've got more than enough money to do it and their economies are booming. If we don't make them stop polluting, no measures undertaken by the US, or even the entire OECD, will stop global warming.

Global Warming is Bullshit! (http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles%202004/Winter2003-4/global_warming.pdf)

Somethings wrong with that link, it crashed my computor!

Somethings wrong with that link, it crashed my computor!
Its a .pda file. Do you have Adobe Reader?

It is part of a cycle as someone else said. We'll have a few more years of this and then it will go back to normal. Global warming may have contributed, but not as much as the natural cycle.

It's amazing that only a disaster can mobilize people. Bush finally decides to release the reserve oil and finally tells Americans to conserve gas. All he cares about are his oil buddies. He wants America to be wasteful so his OBs can line their pockets happily. And to top that, I still see SUVs on the road. Most of which were bought on lease and credit. People say "If they can afford the car, they can afford the gas." They can't afford the car, they just want to look cool. Rich people don't even drive SUVs, they drive cars.

These countries that are producing the pollution are literally swimming in cash, be it foreign, domestic, or government. There's no reason why China and India can't be held accountable, they've got more than enough money to do it and their economies are booming. If we don't make them stop polluting, no measures undertaken by the US, or even the entire OECD, will stop global warming.

The belief that globalization has made those societies instantly wealthy is a misnomer. For example 200 million people in India live in abject poverty completely untouched by that societies recent economic boom. India and China have almost two billion people together and yet they produce less green house gas then the United States (with less then 300 million people). The reforms are needed here first, and once they are implemented are economy will have become a lot stronger and a lot more stable, I doubt China and India will then (faced with the limits of growth) hesitate to follow suit.

It's amazing that only a disaster can mobilize people. Bush finally decides to release the reserve oil and finally tells Americans to conserve gas. All he cares about are his oil buddies. He wants America to be wasteful so his OBs can line their pockets happily. And to top that, I still see SUVs on the road. Most of which were bought on lease and credit. People say "If they can afford the car, they can afford the gas." They can't afford the car, they just want to look cool. Rich people don't even drive SUVs, they drive cars.

Well, it was their decision to buy the SUV, and now they're paying for it. There's not much we can do besides force the bulding of new pipelines/refineries and drive less. Nothing else will work.

The belief that globalization has made those societies instantly wealthy is a misnomer. For example 200 million people in India live in abject poverty completely untouched by that societies recent economic boom. India and China have almost two billion people together and yet they produce less green house gas then the United States (with less then 300 million people). The reforms are needed here first, and once they are implemented are economy will have become a lot stronger and a lot more stable, I doubt China and India will then (faced with the limits of growth) hesitate to follow suit.

Our emissions aren't growing; they are up about 1% year over year. Asia's are 18% of the world's total and are growing 10% per year or more.

Their people live in poverty, but forcing environmental standards won't affect that. In fact, if we can get people in there to enforce the standards, we might be able to stop the abuses of labor and sweatshops that create urban poverty.

Its a .pda file. Do you have Adobe Reader?

Yes! I will however do a systems check later to day to see if everything on my computors working. You sure it's not the link?

Could perhaps you use some material with more simple requirements?

Yes! I will however due a systems check later to day to see if everything on my computors working. You sure it's not the link?

Could perhaps you use some material with more simple requirements?
Try This (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/734749/posts)

Or this (http://www.thecapitalist.net/globwarm.html) Notice the gallup poll.

Amestria']This hurricane proves that America can no longer afford to ignore the realities of manmade climate change and its potential consequences. The consensus is that global warming defiantly had an effect with Katrina, the results being a major U.S. city completely destroyed and much of the surrounding coastline devastated (more damage then terrorists could ever hope to do). And it is only the beginning of the hurricane season (there expecting seven to nine more such storms, sit back and watch the disasters). If nothing is done it will only get worse, and I think we all can agree that the economic costs of doing nothing is greater then the costs of the reforms that are so desperately needed.

It is not like the technology and ideas do not currently exist. For those who read Scientific American, The New Yorker, or the Economist, it is common knowledge that there currently exist plans upon plans to prevent global catastrophe thought up by the world’s best minds. Thee Technology currently exists to maximize energy efficiency, minimize waste, and move the Modern Economy beyond fossil fuels by 2050 (fossil fuels by the way are more valuable when used for things other then energy production). The U.S. government is however currently lacks the scientific literacy and leadership to implement any of these economic reforms.

If anything good can come out of this tragedy its that the leadership and public will start taking climate change seriously. A major metropolitan area being under water is not just Hollywood, its real life…

Lets not go back to normalcy…

Normalcy: http://www.markfiore.com/animation/vacation.html

You are a political opportunist. This is what you think about? Way to be.

And I tried that link. Works for me. Might wanna go troubleshooter on your computers ass.

This is not telling the whole picture, because hurricanes take place in cycles. There was a hurricane this strong back in 1909.. there are experts who take my side on this one. We are also moving away from fossil fuels (or reducing consumption).


Yes, but it is foolish to pretend that global warming is not making things worse!


The energy bill that went through is addressing alternative energies.


Fantasies...


NO! I have been listening to the experts! You have not been.


Are you familar with Proffessor Herman E. Daly of the School of Public Policy at the University of Maryland? He worked from 1988 to 1994 as a senior economist in the environment department of the World Bank, where he helped to formulate the guidelines of sustainable development...

Are you familar with Jared Diamond?


It is a stupid anti-Bush flash that is not needed right now. It doesn't refuse jack shit....


It's all true!


We are indeed making progress.

One step forward, two steps back! The United States (one of many examples) is the only Western Country to go backwards in automotive fuel efficiency.

People like the author of this thread seem to come out of the woodwork after every disaster. It's just like the people who do internet scams claiming to raise money for victims but pocket the cash. This guy makes me sick. He trivializes the suffering of the disaster victims by warping the issue to suit his personal wacko political agenda. He doesn't care about the people down there or what they're going through.

Seriously: evaluate your life.

Yes, but it is foolish to pretend that global warming is not making things worse!



Fantasies...

Fantasies? What fucking fantasies? All I've seen you do is try to make this political. Some of my family was nearly lost in Katrina. So please don't tell me this unsubstantiated political nonsense. I don't need it right now.


It's all true!

No it isn't. Grow up and get your life re-evaluated. You can't go around bringing in politics into this right now. We need to focus on the fucking reality, and provide relief and reconstruction.

One step forward, two steps back! The United States (one of many examples) is the only Western Country to go backwards in automotive fuel efficiency.

Plenty of steps foward. Your political views are a thousand steps back, and no steps forward. Also another fact, the fuel efficency in this country has been steadily rising and MPG restrictions have risen.

People like the author of this thread seem to come out of the woodwork after every disaster. It's just like the people who do internet scams claiming to raise money for victims but pocket the cash. This guy makes me sick. He trivializes the suffering of the disaster victims by warping the issue to suit his personal wacko political agenda. He doesn't care about the people down there or what they're going through.

Seriously: evaluate your life.

Who are you to lecture me! How am I being like a scam carity? How am I trivializing the disater victims (I'm not claiming that anyone was directly responsible)? This is a debate we need to have!

All I'm trying to do is bring attention to an issue, which if addressed, will save lives...

Fantasies? What fucking fantasies? All I've seen you do is try to make this political. Some of my family was nearly lost in Katrina. So please don't tell me this unsubstantiated political nonsense. I don't need it right now.



No it isn't. Grow up and get your life re-evaluated. You can't go around bringing in politics into this right now. We need to focus on the fucking reality, and provide relief and reconstruction.



Plenty of steps foward. Your political views are a thousand steps back, and no steps forward. Also another fact, the fuel efficency in this country has been steadily rising and MPG restrictions have risen.

I see people are too tense after all that happened (seems I made an error of judgement to bring this up so soon :( ). I was not trying to make this partison (everything by the way is political). I am deeply sorry for any hurt I may have caused...

I only wanted to help...

I see people are too tense after all that happened (seems I made an error of judgement to bring this up so soon :( ). I was not trying to make this partison (everything by the way is political). I am deeply sorry for any hurt I may have caused...

I only wanted to help...

Help? By posting these flash things criticizing the president who has to deal wtih this disaster? You most certainly were trying to make this political. And no I'm sorry but my the livelyhood of my aunt is not political. Everything is NOT political.

Who are you to lecture me! How am I being like a scam carity? How am I trivializing the disater victims (I'm not claiming that anyone was directly responsible)? This is a debate we need to have!

All I'm trying to do is bring attention to an issue, which if addressed, will save lives...

You are an opportunist who trivializes people's suffering by perverting it into a manifestation of how you think the world should work. You are a fraud and a disgrace. You don't care about the people in New Orleans; you won't lend any financial support to people who have lost their entire families and everything they've ever worked for if it means sacraficing a single mocha almond frappuccino. You are not someone who has the right to act indignant.

Of course global warming and hurricane Katrina are all the United States' fault, just like terrorism. I forget sometimes that there are 200 other countries out there and, granted, about a dozen or so highly industrialized countries responsible, as best as modern day science is able to show us, for global warming. Never mind that global warming has multiple aspects to it besides the polutents caused by industrialized nations -- deforistation perhaps?

It's good to know that while technology does exist, that it is quite expensive to the everday citizen, it will take 50 years or so to, possibly, reverse such damages. OK, I'm all for doing something now before the problem gets worse (that line of thinking sounds familiar). Last time I checked, however, the wonderful Kyoto Treaty doesn't mention anything about airplanes, I might be wrong. Last time I checked, again, airplanes use a substantial ammount of fuel to get from A to B, and to top that off, they are flying at high altitudes where there exhaust is blown around the jet stream and the upper atmosphere (I'm not a meteorologist to be fair). Meanwhile, a car down here on the ground does more damage?

Let's also take a look at the fact that Japan is primarily responsible for the Kyoto Treaty, where do most cars come from these days? Does that strike anyone as slightly odd? It wont cost alot for the US if they joined the Kyoto Treaty? Really? Let's think about that. The US exports are large amount of steel. Coal is used to make steel. Coal produces green house gasses does it not? It is possible to use other resources besides coal, but the costs would be so high, it would be cheaper to close down New Jersey than to update all the factories (they'll find other jobs someday). So, again, I guess people would be fine with George Bush spending lucrative amounts of money on a "good" cause, such as global warming.

I recently moved to New Zealand, they signed the Kyoto Treaty. Now they see that it would cost $900 (some estimates) a year per household (2 or 3 persons) to adhere to the treaty. New Zealand, the size of the UK, Japan, or California, has only 4 million people in it. Can they afford this? Multiply that times 75 perhaps and you just might see the cost for the US. If only we weren't in Iraq we would be able to afford that right?

Yesterday, I read that the US and other industrialized nations were talking about creating a treaty similar to Kyoto, but more in line to there needs (doing nothing?). Remember, Japan is an industrialized nation, but they import most of their resources. From who? The US, China, and Australia perhaps? Three of whom aren't in the Kyoto Treaty. But they have nothing to do with global warming, just the US, right? Was this post created by the German Minister of Agriculture? So Japan can afford to write the Kyoto Treaty. Other industrialized nations cannot. So while it's easy to criticize Bush [author of the post didn't point out Bush until later, but I felt it was hinted at] and the US and blame, well, everything on them, it might be better to look at things a little differently.

I agree something needs to be done, but the Kyoto Treaty might be a little bit shortsided in that respect. Also, does it make sense for New Zealand, with 4 million people, to pay for, lets say, the pollution caused by Russia (or China or the US) who has a substantialy larger population? I'm not much for common sense, but while the Kyoto Treaty is a good first step, it's looking to be a step in the wrong direction.

You are an opportunist who trivializes people's suffering by perverting it into a manifestation of how you think the world should work. You are a fraud and a disgrace. You don't care about the people in New Orleans; you won't lend any financial support to people who have lost their entire families and everything they've ever worked for if it means sacraficing a single mocha almond frappuccino. You are not someone who has the right to act indignant.

HOW DO YOU KNOW I HAVENT GIVEN FINANCIAL SUPPORT! Maybe I made a mistake to bring this up so soon (no ones perfect), and I'm sorry! But you Sir are the opportunist who has used Katinia as an excuse to subject people to emotional bludgening! How dare you say I don't care about the people of New Orleans (who do you think you are?), I made a mistake (granted) but it is you who are using the victims to smear those who displease you!

Stupid tree-huggers.



:mp5: :sniper: :mp5:
The Armed Republic Of Cruel Tyrany

Seems to me the only thing this proves is that it's flaming stupid to build a major city below sea level on the coast.

Well, really there's no surprise. I mean, some bloody rocket scientist built New Orleans on the coast of the Gulf of Mexico, a strong source of adrenaline for hurricanes, and below sea level in a large, hard-to-drain-if-ever-filled pit (Probably the same person who designed San Francisco's road system).

Actually the likelyhood for New Orleans to get hit is pretty rare (it happened this time).

HOW DO YOU KNOW I HAVENT GIVEN FINANCIAL SUPPORT! Maybe I made a mistake to bring this up so soon (no ones perfect), and I'm sorry! But you Sir are the opportunist who has used Katinia as an excuse to subject people to emotional bludgening! How dare you say I don't care about the people of New Orleans (who do you think you are?), I made a mistake (granted) but it is you who are using the victims to smear those who displease you!

1. I suppose I don't know, but I feel like anyone who can see the images of death, destruction, suffering and lawlessness that is currently being experienced in New Orleans and responds by urging us to reflect on the sins of atmospheric pollution is too self-absorbed to help anyone but themselves.--these are my feelings.
2. I'm not ashamed of my anger against those who would take advantage of these situations.
3. You feel upset because I judged you, and I really can't blame you for feeling that way. It's really hard for me to say this, but I apologize for doing that. I have a lot of emotions wrapped up in the events going on there, and you're on the receiving end of my vented frustration. You are humble enough a person to admit error in judgment, and that says much about your character. I wasn't angry at your opinion, but at what I perceived to be a lack of humanity. I hope that you can forgive me for that.

Amestria']This hurricane proves that America can no longer afford to ignore the realities of manmade climate change and its potential consequences.

Bull s..t.

Well, really there's no surprise. I mean, some bloody rocket scientist built New Orleans on the coast of the Gulf of Mexico, a strong source of adrenaline for hurricanes, and below sea level in a large, hard-to-drain-if-ever-filled pit (Probably the same person who designed San Francisco's road system).

Money was much more important than safety back when that city was founded. It was one of the world's commerical centers, with a fortune in goods passing through it. They designed it for commerce without taking in to account the risks, and that led to the problems of today.

Money was much more important than safety back when that city was founded. It was one of the world's commerical centers, with a fortune in goods passing through it. They designed it for commerce without taking in to account the risks, and that led to the problems of today.

This is an excellent point.

I read in the news today that Amsterdam is also built below sea level. Does this mean that they could face a similar catastrophy?

This is an excellent point.
I read in the news today that Amsterdam is also built below sea level. Does this mean that they could face a similar catastrophy?

For now, no. They're on a pretty good spot that's free from major storms, so they'll be alright. (Most of the rain moves north and hits around Bergen). However, if there was a hurricane like ours due to some kind of shift, it would be a disaster. That city is built on 300+ year old foundations and infrastructure, and all of its land is artifically made. It could be a disaster if it happened.

1. I suppose I don't know, but I feel like anyone who can see the images of death, destruction, suffering and lawlessness that is currently being experienced in New Orleans and responds by urging us to reflect on the sins of atmospheric pollution is too self-absorbed to help anyone but themselves.--these are my feelings.

It is no more natural to reflect upon climate change while watching the images of New Orleans then it was to reflect upon terrorism after 9/11.


2. I'm not ashamed of my anger against those who would take advantage of these situations.

You should'ent be, but I wasent taking advantage of the situation.


3. You feel upset because I judged you, and I really can't blame you for feeling that way. It's really hard for me to say this, but I apologize for doing that. I have a lot of emotions wrapped up in the events going on there, and you're on the receiving end of my vented frustration. You are humble enough a person to admit error in judgment, and that says much about your character. I wasn't angry at your opinion, but at what I perceived to be a lack of humanity. I hope that you can forgive me for that.

Once again I am sorry. When do you think it will be a good time to discuss this issue, which really needs to be discussed. How long is an acceptable waiting period?

So um... where's the rest of the planet, jumping to the aid of the US?

I see lots of Americans and American companies making donations... but where is the world?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9148982/
Wal-Mart committed to $15 million in donations to jump-start the fundraising efforts headed by former Presidents George Bush and Bill Clinton. As part of the plan, the nation's largest retailer will establish mini-Wal-Mart stores in hurricane-ravaged areas, and will provide free items — clothing, diapers, baby wipes, food, formula, toothbrushes, bedding and water — to those who demonstrate need.

The Walt Disney Co. contributed $2.5 million, $1 million of which will go to the American Red Cross and the rest for rebuilding efforts and volunteer centers helping affected communities.

Shell Oil Company and Motiva Enterprises LLC dedicated $2 million to the American Red Cross, and will match employee donations up to another $1 million.Nissan North America sent 50 trucks. Anheuser-Busch offered more than 825,000 cans of water. Sprint Nextel Corp. donated 3,000 walkie talkie-type phones for emergency personnel.
Seven truckloads of crackers and cookies were on the way thanks to Kellogg Co. Two dozen cars and trucks were offered by General Motors Corp. Home Depot and Lowe’s pledged cash and manpower, while Culligan International sent five truckloads of water.

More than 100 tractor trailers from as far away as California and Wisconsin were on their way to aid Katrina’s victims in southwest Alabama with food, water, ice and blankets.

Also, t-mobile is offering free wifi.
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1854453,00.asp

So... um... THE REST OF EARTH... where are you?

Once again I am sorry. When do you think it will be a good time to discuss this issue, which really needs to be discussed. How long is an acceptable waiting period?

How about never?

Since Global Warming had nothing, and I do mean nothing to do with Katrina, what is to discuss?

You do know that the Earth has a natural heating and cooling cycle right? Also, what warms up, must cool down.

Shall we discuss the natural Heating and cooling cycle of the planet? I'm all for it but don't blame this on global warming because it isn't!

So... um... THE REST OF EARTH... where are you?
Etiquette demands that a request is issued before offers are made, to avoid causing political embarrassment.

Not to be vindictive but it is somewhat ironic that an uncharacteristically severe hurricane, unboubtedly engendered by global warming, has struck the principal nation on earth who refused to subscribe to the Kyoto treaty. Katrina is a situation mainifested by Bush's refusal to operate suing a degree of foresight, and in attempting to maintain the current economic situation in the U.S.A., he serves only to harm it. I remain utterly assured that the principal global priority for the present decade must be the development of a viable, safe and non-pollutant locomotion fuel, and the U.S.A., with the scientific dominance of NASA, ought to assume a major role in any such project.

Er. The U.S. Senate, including John Kerry, voted against signing the Kyoto Treaty during Clinton's years.

Don't blame Bush.

And, as to the overall topic, the Earth shifts its polar orbit every so often, and accordingly, weather patterns change. In fact, some scientists actually argue that the world is cooling, rather than heating up, and this cooling is causing the shift in the world's climate. This shift also accounts for the slight melting of the Ice Caps, and various other meterological oddities that have occurred around the world as of late.

Sure, man is changing the climate somewhat, but it's mainly our vain ideas that man can do so much that has motivated this idea. The Earth has its own ideas, its own cycles, and nothing short of changing the Earth's orbit or spin will change that. So, does that mean you're going to blame it all on America because of the Nuclear Bombs? Well, what about Chernobyl?

No. We have had a part in this play, but we are not the main character.

I stand 100% by my previous statement. I do not mean this as an attack on any one person.
Of course. If we kept the subject of your ire as a collective, it is much easier to attack.
BTW, I heard that by Labor Day in the US, some gas stations are gonna run out entirely. Kids, never keep your tank less than half full. I know I wouldn't.

If you had been reading around, you might have noticed that many countries have responded with condolences and offers of help. France was one of the first.

And yes, before you ask, The United Nations disaster relief director has offered UN help to the US during this.

President Bush has politely declined.

Amestria']This hurricane proves that America can no longer afford to ignore the realities of manmade climate change and its potential consequences. The consensus is that global warming defiantly had an effect with Katrina, the results being a major U.S. city completely destroyed and much of the surrounding coastline devastated (more damage then terrorists could ever hope to do). And it is only the beginning of the hurricane season (there expecting seven to nine more such storms, sit back and watch the disasters). If nothing is done it will only get worse, and I think we all can agree that the economic costs of doing nothing is greater then the costs of the reforms that are so desperately needed.

It is not like the technology and ideas do not currently exist. For those who read Scientific American, The New Yorker, or the Economist, it is common knowledge that there currently exist plans upon plans to prevent global catastrophe thought up by the world’s best minds. Thee Technology currently exists to maximize energy efficiency, minimize waste, and move the Modern Economy beyond fossil fuels by 2050 (fossil fuels by the way are more valuable when used for things other then energy production). The U.S. government is however currently lacks the scientific literacy and leadership to implement any of these economic reforms.

If anything good can come out of this tragedy its that the leadership and public will start taking climate change seriously. A major metropolitan area being under water is not just Hollywood, its real life…

Lets not go back to normalcy…

Normalcy: http://www.markfiore.com/animation/vacation.html

Category 5 Hurricanes:
Number Storm Name Maximum Wind Date Attained (UTC) Landfall as
1 Not Named 140 kt 160 mph Sep 13, 1928 Puerto Rico
2 Not Named 140 kt 160 mph Sep 5, 1932 Bahamas
3 Not Named 140 kt 160 mph Sep 3, 1935 US/FL Keys
4 Not Named 140 kt 160 mph Sep 19, 1938 ---

http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/satellite/satelliteseye/educational/cat5hur.html

Um... who was responsible for the climate change that caused these? :headbang:

PS: Most (97%!) of American energy production relies on natural gas, nuclear, or coal, not petroleum. Even hydropower is double...
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat1p1.html

I looked around on BBC, MSNBC, and NPR, but found nothing on the subject... nor did I when I googled for Katrina +donations about 823 different ways...

If you had been reading around, you might have noticed that many countries have responded with condolences and offers of help. France was one of the first.

And yes, before you ask, The United Nations disaster relief director has offered UN help to the US during this.

President Bush has politely declined.

Even I would decline UN help though I'll take offers from the rest of the world! :D

Etiquette demands that a request is issued before offers are made, to avoid causing political embarrassment.

I wasn't aware that the world (US included) waited for each country to ask for help after the Tsunami.

Even I would decline UN help though I'll take offers from the rest of the world! :D

Now now... I'm sure the UN will rush aid to Louisiana in 8 to 22 months... ;)

After they take 37 votes and decide it's not to be classified as a hurricane.

Even I would decline UN help though I'll take offers from the rest of the world! :D
I'd question whether you would deserve anything, though. :rolleyes:

The UN tends to serve as the world's coordinating body for international relief operations.

I wasn't aware that the world (US included) waited for each country to ask for help after the Tsunami.
They did. You may recall the initial slow response. It was a couple of days before the requests for assistance grew strong and were acknowledged.

I know. Local transport companies are complaining loudly about rising oil prices and are planning to, once again, raise fares on the consumers.

But yet there are still people who think that climatic change is a secondary topic compared with "the fragile state of our economy". Well, here's evidence that suggests maybe "the fragile state of our economy" is linked very closely to climatic change.

Climate Change=Global Warming people.

Don't believe this utter BS. Global Warming has nothing whatsoever to do with Katrina.

They did. You may recall the initial slow response. It was a couple of days before the requests for assistance grew strong and were acknowledged.

Seems silly to me. Huge disaster everyone knows about, with almost certain poor communications from the region in question. So instead of helping immediately, one waits?

That's like seeing your neighbor's roof is on fire not not calling the fire department...

You may not realise it, but you have answered your own question. When the Third World suffers a disaster, the first thing is does is request aid. And so it usually receives some, although usually inadequate amounts. So far, the US has requested no outside assistance, so it has received none. You may recall the Kursk disaster, when aid was potentially available, but was not requested until too late.

What you forgot to mention was that we continuosly offered the Russians the chance to save the crew and they refused until it was to late. That didn't happen with that mini sub that got trapped. THey learned their lesson.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-09-02T011342Z_01_HO204382_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-WEATHER-KATRINA-UN-DC.XML

"The United Nations on Thursday offered to help the United States provide disaster relief to the victims of Hurricane Katrina as the storm's devastation challenged the U.S. authorities' ability to cope.
While the United States is the country best prepared to deal with such a disaster, 'the sheer size of this emergency makes it possible that we can supplement the American response with supplies from other countries, or with experience we have gained in other relief operations,' U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said.
...
U.N. assistance was first offered to Washington on Wednesday by Emergency Relief Coordinator Jan Egeland, who led the global aid effort after December's Indian Ocean tsunami.
But U.S. officials, while thanking the world body for its offer, did not request any assistance at that time.
More recently, however, U.S. officials have signaled they were open to all offers as dozens of foreign governments lined up to pledge assistance."

I can't seem to find a link to another article I read today, but if I remember correctly, foreign governments that have offered aid include Japan, France, Germany, Russia, Venezuela and many others.

I'd question whether you would deserve anything, though. :rolleyes:

The UN tends to serve as the world's coordinating body for international relief operations.

What the Hell!?!?!? WHETHER WE DESERVE ANYTHING?!?!?!?!? Are you insane!?! The US has been helping the world for the last 50+ years ! I DO SO BELIEVE DESERVE IT YA JERK! Before you say something like that make sure you read your history books. We didn't NEED to help ANYONE during the Second World War. We had an Isolationist policy buddy.

:Edit: Ya know, the US didnt "question whether they needed it" when Southeast Asia asked for help from the US when the tsunami hit.

Now now... I'm sure the UN will rush aid to Louisiana in 8 to 22 months... ;)

After they take 37 votes and decide it's not to be classified as a hurricane.

It would be funny if it wasn't so true and that is after 3 French and 5 Chinese vetos!

I'd question whether you would deserve anything, though. :rolleyes:

The UN tends to serve as the world's coordinating body for international relief operations.

The only thing that they are half way decent at.

From another thread about the exact same thing that ought to be merged with this thread:

Foreign governments line up to help after Katrina
Link to Reuters Article (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N01481437.htm)

WASHINGTON, Sept 1 (Reuters) - More than 20 countries, from allies Germany and Japan to prickly Venezuela and poor Honduras, have offered to help the United States cope with the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

Accustomed to being a rich donor rather than on the receiving end of charity, the United States initially seemed reticent about accepting foreign aid, but later said it would take up any offers. The hurricane devastated New Orleans and other parts of the U.S. Gulf Coast, killing hundreds and possibly thousands.

"Anything that can be of help to alleviate the tragic situation of the area affected by Hurricane Katrina will be accepted," said State Department spokesman Sean McCormack.

"America should be heartened by the fact that the world is reaching out to America at a time of need," he added.

Earlier, President George W. Bush said in a television interview that the United States could take care of itself.

"I'm not expecting much from foreign nations because we hadn't asked for it. I do expect a lot of sympathy and perhaps some will send cash dollars. But this country's going to rise up and take care of it," Bush told ABC's "Good Morning America."

McCormack said there had not been a change of position over accepting foreign aid and White House spokesman Scott McClellan also said the United States would take up offers of help.

The State Department said offers so far had come from Belgium, Canada, Russia, Japan, France, Germany, Britain, China, Australia, Jamaica, Honduras, Greece, Venezuela, the Organization of American States, NATO, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Mexico, South Korea, Israel and the United Arab Emirates.

Assistance ranged from medical teams, boats, aircraft, tents, blankets, generators and cash donations.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon wrote to Bush offering medical teams that specialized in trauma and natural disasters and said they could be ready in 24 hours.

"During these difficult times, we, the people of Israel stand firmly by your side in a show of solidarity and friendship," said the letter, which was released by the Israeli Embassy in Washington.

Where the United States really needs help is getting cheap oil and the Bush administration will be approaching Arab nations and other oil producers over the coming days.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, a vocal critic of the United States, offered to send cheap fuel, humanitarian aid and relief workers to the disaster area.

The State Department did not comment on Venezuela's offer but several officials smiled at the gesture from Chavez, who on Wednesday called Bush a "cowboy" who failed to manage the disaster.

Cuban President Fidel Castro, a close Chavez ally, led a minute of silence in remembrance of the victims of Katrina in parliament on Thursday. The parliament then returned to normal business with a resolution attacking Bush over the Iraq war.

What the Hell!?!?!? WHETHER WE DESERVE ANYTHING?!?!?!?!? Are you insane!?! The US has been helping the world for the last 50+ years ! I DO SO BELIEVE DESERVE IT YA JERK! Before you say something like that make sure you read your history books. We didn't NEED to help ANYONE during the Second World War. We had an Isolationist policy buddy.

:Edit: Ya know, the US didnt "question whether they needed it" when Southeast Asia asked for help from the US.
International relief operations are a national sovereignty minefield. Therefore there are appropriate channels, the UN being the pre-eminent one. Refusing assistance from the UN, but demanding it from individual nations, seriously undermines any claims one may have. :)

Seems silly to me. Huge disaster everyone knows about, with almost certain poor communications from the region in question. So instead of helping immediately, one waits?

So if hordes of Cubans, for example, some of them openly carrying guns, suddenly swept over the border into the US and stuck their oar in when it came to relief efforts without co-ordinating anything, that would be perfectly acceptable to you?

What the Hell!?!?!? WHETHER WE DESERVE ANYTHING?!?!?!?!? Are you insane!?! The US has been helping the world for the last 50+ years ! I DO SO BELIEVE DESERVE IT YA JERK!

Are you saying that only those nations which earn it through helping others deserve aid? If not, then the matter of whether the US has been helping other nations or not is entirely irrelevant.

Now I'm just curious, but are gas prices rising in any other parts of the world? How about the West Coast? I haven't heard a bit of info from out there, though I assume it is just as bad. It's supposed to be bad in Canada, too. In Mexico, I bet prices are rising, but then again, the only gas retailer there (the state controlled Pemex) may intervene to lower prices.

International relief operations are a national sovereignty minefield. Therefore there are appropriate channels, the UN being the pre-eminent one. Refusing assistance from the UN, but demanding it from individual nations, seriously undermines any claims one may have. :)

Yet the UN is an individual organization that represents and voices public opinions from various countries. Thse countries are independent, not relying on the UN for a governing body. The US might refuse help from the UN but that may just mean they want immediate and direct help from individuals. Basically all the US is doing is cutting out the middleman.


Grampus, I'm not saying that a country must earn help to recieve it. I'm saying that the US in this case is more than deserving of help. I just saying the fact that we help anyone who needs it (I'm sure there are those I don't know about that we don't help) is a justifying enough reason to help the US. Besides the fact that one would deny help to someone else because that person doesnt agree with the other is immoral. For instance Mogadishu, not all the people of Mogadishu wanted our help but those that did we helped. Had the people who didnt want our help not put up such a fight and go as far as to steal the food we provided we would have left much faster.

All in all, I'm saying what reason would the UN have to not help the US, as I remember it (though I might be wrong) the US was the first to think of a organization similuar to the UN.

Basically all the US is doing is cutting out the middleman.
Your nation created the UN. And yet you have still failed to grasp that precisely this action offends its members. As I said, there are appropriate channels. Bypassing them offends not merely the institution, but its constituents.

The US might refuse help from the UN but that may just mean they want immediate and direct help from individuals. Basically all the US is doing is cutting out the middleman.

Ever heard the expression 'beggars can't be choosers'?

Before you say something like that make sure you read your history books. We didn't NEED to help ANYONE during the Second World War. We had an Isolationist policy buddy.

I've alawys found that particular argument to be slightly shakey; to me it is tantamount to saying that you were happy for the Nazis to burn the Jews if you try to suggest that you deserve credit on a quid pro quo basis for helping out. Other countries fought against the Nazis without thinking how much the rest of the world would owe them in 50 years time.

The State Department said offers so far had come from Belgium, Canada, Russia, Japan, France, Germany, Britain, China, Australia, Jamaica, Honduras, Greece, Venezuela, the Organization of American States, NATO, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Mexico, South Korea, Israel and the United Arab Emirates.

I've alawys found that particular argument to be slightly shakey; to me it is tantamount to saying that you were happy for the Nazis to burn the Jews if you try to suggest that you deserve credit on a quid pro quo basis for helping out. Other countries fought against the Nazis without thinking how much the rest of the world would owe them in 50 years time.

Aside from the fact that the USA's 'isolationist' policy was an 'isolationist' policy in name alone, which had more to do with reassuring the heads of American voters than actually not-intervening in external affairs.

I wasn't aware that the world (US included) waited for each country to ask for help after the Tsunami.
They did. The first hours are difficult because no one knows just how bad things are and where help is needed most.

Now I'm just curious, but are gas prices rising in any other parts of the world? How about the West Coast? I haven't heard a bit of info from out there, though I assume it is just as bad. It's supposed to be bad in Canada, too. In Mexico, I bet prices are rising, but then again, the only gas retailer there (the state controlled Pemex) may intervene to lower prices.
Prices are fixed in Mexico. Ironically, even though it's a big crude producer, gas has to be imported due to a lack of domestic refineries. That means that the oil company (not the government, but that's a whole other issue) is going to take the loss.

It appears I'm too late to stop the insanity here, but I want to note for the record that there is no reason to believe the global warming trend had anything to do with Katrina.

Well when the beggars own millions of dollars worth of nuclear weapons I think they can choose ("If only I hadn't bought the last nuke!") :D

I just want you guys to know I totally don't mean any hard feelings.

I agree that it was a sad thing that Hurricane Katrina hit hard but I am pretty sure that most of you people have never heard about the flood in India during late July this year. Ironically, India was hit as bad as Louisiana during their flood and yet the U.S showed almost no coverage of India. I am beginning to think that most of these people in the U.S are all hypocritical scum bags who try to make the appearance that they care when they really dont and when something like Katrina happens they start pretending like it is all a very sad thing when they really dont give a shit. They will of course make a huge issue over something like this complaining to everyone in the fucking world that THIS happened to them when in other areas similar issues are happening and they really dont give a shit. Honestly I think this Katrina issue was a slap to the face by mother nature for ignoring the issues about other people.

So it's everyone's fault that the media didnt bring to our attention that there was a flood in India that happened month ago? I'm sure the media was busy informing us of the death of more troops in Iraq at that time. Sorry that the US has its own life. Besides, we have yet to stop the flow of relief aid to India

I've alawys found that particular argument to be slightly shakey; to me it is tantamount to saying that you were happy for the Nazis to burn the Jews if you try to suggest that you deserve credit on a quid pro quo basis for helping out. Other countries fought against the Nazis without thinking how much the rest of the world would owe them in 50 years time.
Not my point. I am not a Nazi nor am I a racist. I am saying that though we may have been attacked by Japan we did not NEED, I emphasize NEED, anyone. I also notice a flaw in my points, we held a isolationist policy before the war started then to help with the Great Depression we decided to send weapons to both Britian and Germany, to prevent conflict. So I was wrong.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-09-02T011342Z_01_HO204382_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-WEATHER-KATRINA-UN-DC.XML

"The United Nations on Thursday offered to help the United States provide disaster relief to the victims of Hurricane Katrina as the storm's devastation challenged the U.S. authorities' ability to cope.
While the United States is the country best prepared to deal with such a disaster, 'the sheer size of this emergency makes it possible that we can supplement the American response with supplies from other countries, or with experience we have gained in other relief operations,' U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said.
...
U.N. assistance was first offered to Washington on Wednesday by Emergency Relief Coordinator Jan Egeland, who led the global aid effort after December's Indian Ocean tsunami.
But U.S. officials, while thanking the world body for its offer, did not request any assistance at that time.
More recently, however, U.S. officials have signaled they were open to all offers as dozens of foreign governments lined up to pledge assistance."

I can't seem to find a link to another article I read today, but if I remember correctly, foreign governments that have offered aid include Japan, France, Germany, Russia, Venezuela and many others.

Thanks. This is literally the first I've heard of any International action.

Prices are fixed in Mexico. Ironically, even though it's a big crude producer, gas has to be imported due to a lack of domestic refineries. That means that the oil company (not the government, but that's a whole other issue) is going to take the loss.
Interesting. That is ironic, considering that many public producers have tried moving downstream in the oil market.

So if hordes of Cubans, for example, some of them openly carrying guns, suddenly swept over the border into the US and stuck their oar in when it came to relief efforts without co-ordinating anything, that would be perfectly acceptable to you?

This is already a problem here in the US. They're just not offering any aid.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8997340/

My point here is that it's been a couple of days, and I haven't seen (until the post from Reuters a few up) *any* media coverage of international support... not listening to NPR, reading the NY Post, or on any of the websites (BBC, MSNBC, FOX, CNN... I'm an equal opportunity newshound).

To the mod that merged my thread on Katrina & International Aid to one about Katrina & Climate Change: for goodness sake... WHY? :confused:

This one would have been a better fit, IMHO:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=441606

I agree that it was a sad thing that Hurricane Katrina hit hard but I am pretty sure that most of you people have never heard about the flood in India during late July this year. Ironically, India was hit as bad as Louisiana during their flood and yet the U.S showed almost no coverage of India. I am beginning to think that most of these people in the U.S are all hypocritical scum bags who try to make the appearance that they care when they really dont and when something like Katrina happens they start pretending like it is all a very sad thing when they really dont give a shit. They will of course make a huge issue over something like this complaining to everyone in the fucking world that THIS happened to them when in other areas similar issues are happening and they really dont give a shit. Honestly I think this Katrina issue was a slap to the face by mother nature for ignoring the issues about other people.
There is a huge difference between how americans react to disasters in other nations and how other nations react to the same disasters. If you look at the amount of relief given by any nation on earth, you find that the American people give the most aid of any nation on earth.

You may not realise it, but you have answered your own question. When the Third World suffers a disaster, the first thing is does is request aid. And so it usually receives some, although usually inadequate amounts. So far, the US has requested no outside assistance, so it has received none. You may recall the Kursk disaster, when aid was potentially available, but was not requested until too late.
That's because we Americans are an independent people.

I agree that it was a sad thing that Hurricane Katrina hit hard but I am pretty sure that most of you people have never heard about the flood in India during late July this year. Ironically, India was hit as bad as Louisiana during their flood and yet the U.S showed almost no coverage of India. I am beginning to think that most of these people in the U.S are all hypocritical scum bags who try to make the appearance that they care when they really dont and when something like Katrina happens they start pretending like it is all a very sad thing when they really dont give a shit. They will of course make a huge issue over something like this complaining to everyone in the fucking world that THIS happened to them when in other areas similar issues are happening and they really dont give a shit. Honestly I think this Katrina issue was a slap to the face by mother nature for ignoring the issues about other people.
If I recall, the US was one of the most, if not THE most, generous countries when the tsunami hit several countries around the Indian Ocean - one of which included - yes, you get a cookie - India.

I have yet to see the offers of aid from any other country to help the US.

Amestria']This hurricane proves that America can no longer afford to ignore the realities of manmade climate change and its potential consequences. The consensus is that global warming defiantly had an effect with Katrina, the results being a major U.S. city completely destroyed and much of the surrounding coastline devastated (more damage then terrorists could ever hope to do).

1. No, it is not "consensus" that global warming caused Katrina, just an NYT editorial and a few environmentalist wackos like Robert Kennedy. The worst hurricane in recorded American history occurred in 1900 in Galveston, TX. I hardly think global warming caused that one, and I don't believe it caused this one either.

2. I find it absolutely despicable that, while people are still being rescued and homes are still underwater, folks like you try to turn that misery into a political football. Who cares, at least at this point, if global warming had anything to do with the hurricane? I'd like to get some people rescued, fed, clothed, and into some new homes and jobs before playing politics. :mad:

These countries that are producing the pollution are literally swimming in cash, be it foreign, domestic, or government. There's no reason why China and India can't be held accountable, they've got more than enough money to do it and their economies are booming. If we don't make them stop polluting, no measures undertaken by the US, or even the entire OECD, will stop global warming.
Contrary to what our freinds in Europe want, and fortunately for us, the Chinese at least are realizing this. They are starting to implement the same enviromental controls as we have.

The belief that globalization has made those societies instantly wealthy is a misnomer. For example 200 million people in India live in abject poverty completely untouched by that societies recent economic boom. India and China have almost two billion people together and yet they produce less green house gas then the United States (with less then 300 million people). The reforms are needed here first, and once they are implemented are economy will have become a lot stronger and a lot more stable, I doubt China and India will then (faced with the limits of growth) hesitate to follow suit.
That's completely false. Even the Chinese govt acknowledges that their nation now produces almost 40% of the world's greenhouse gas emissions.

Who are you to lecture me! How am I being like a scam carity? How am I trivializing the disater victims (I'm not claiming that anyone was directly responsible)? This is a debate we need to have!

All I'm trying to do is bring attention to an issue, which if addressed, will save lives...
You are sick and pathological. All you are doing is using this to bash Bush with your Bush caused hurricanes crap.

1. No, it is not "consensus" that global warming caused Katrina, just an NYT editorial and a few environmentalist wackos like Robert Kennedy. The worst hurricane in recorded American history occurred in 1900 in Galveston, TX. I hardly think global warming caused that one, and I don't believe it caused this one either.

If anything, it ought to be consensus that global warming had nothing to do with this hurricane.

I've been waiting to post this chart (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pastdec.shtml), and now's my chance. There is no evidence here whatsoever of a historical increase in either frequency or intensity of hurricanes.

1. No, it is not "consensus" that global warming caused Katrina, just an NYT editorial and a few environmentalist wackos like Robert Kennedy. The worst hurricane in recorded American history occurred in 1900 in Galveston, TX. I hardly think global warming caused that one, and I don't believe it caused this one either.

2. I find it absolutely despicable that, while people are still being rescued and homes are still underwater, folks like you try to turn that misery into a political football. Who cares, at least at this point, if global warming had anything to do with the hurricane? I'd like to get some people rescued, fed, clothed, and into some new homes and jobs before playing politics. :mad:

Did I miss something here?

1. Global Warming heats the planet, which includes the water systems. This equals more and faster evaporation which preludes bigger and stronger hurricanes. I thought I had that logic down, maybe you could clear that up for me? I seriously hate to share any faulty logic.

By the way, I do recall last year being one of the most active for hurricanes and tornadoes, so when you compare the 3 freak storms of the 1900's with one of the biggest of all time coming right after the most active season of all time, well mister, I don't think that takes a special brain to make a connection there.

2. Who cares? The victoms? Just maybe? You think?

I mean, last time I check we had 6 billion people in this world, Bush wasn't sending fast enough relief and no one was giving aid, so I think we have a lot of free minds out there right now. Including all of us on these forums. I doubt talking about how bad it is is fixing anything over there.

Did I miss something here?

1. Global Warming heats the planet, which includes the water systems. This equals more and faster evaporation which preludes bigger and stronger hurricanes. I thought I had that logic down, maybe you could clear that up for me? I seriously hate to share any faulty logic.

You might try junkscience.com. It clears up alot of the global warming as a human activity hysteria.

So um... where's the rest of the planet, jumping to the aid of the US?

I see lots of Americans and American companies making donations... but where is the world?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9148982/
Wal-Mart committed to $15 million in donations to jump-start the fundraising efforts headed by former Presidents George Bush and Bill Clinton. As part of the plan, the nation's largest retailer will establish mini-Wal-Mart stores in hurricane-ravaged areas, and will provide free items — clothing, diapers, baby wipes, food, formula, toothbrushes, bedding and water — to those who demonstrate need.

The Walt Disney Co. contributed $2.5 million, $1 million of which will go to the American Red Cross and the rest for rebuilding efforts and volunteer centers helping affected communities.

Shell Oil Company and Motiva Enterprises LLC dedicated $2 million to the American Red Cross, and will match employee donations up to another $1 million.Nissan North America sent 50 trucks. Anheuser-Busch offered more than 825,000 cans of water. Sprint Nextel Corp. donated 3,000 walkie talkie-type phones for emergency personnel.
Seven truckloads of crackers and cookies were on the way thanks to Kellogg Co. Two dozen cars and trucks were offered by General Motors Corp. Home Depot and Lowe’s pledged cash and manpower, while Culligan International sent five truckloads of water.

More than 100 tractor trailers from as far away as California and Wisconsin were on their way to aid Katrina’s victims in southwest Alabama with food, water, ice and blankets.

Also, t-mobile is offering free wifi.
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1854453,00.asp

So... um... THE REST OF EARTH... where are you?

Where's the rest of the world?
Simple answer maybe:

They've all turned their backs and said "Fuck you America." And that's after they took our money.

They've all turned their backs and said "Fuck you America." And that's after they took our money.

Not true. Last I saw, we'd received offers of help from about 20 different countries and the United Nations.

Did I miss something here?

1. Global Warming heats the planet, which includes the water systems. This equals more and faster evaporation which preludes bigger and stronger hurricanes. I thought I had that logic down, maybe you could clear that up for me? I seriously hate to share any faulty logic.

By the way, I do recall last year being one of the most active for hurricanes and tornadoes, so when you compare the 3 freak storms of the 1900's with one of the biggest of all time coming right after the most active season of all time, well mister, I don't think that takes a special brain to make a connection there.

2. Who cares? The victoms? Just maybe? You think?

I mean, last time I check we had 6 billion people in this world, Bush wasn't sending fast enough relief and no one was giving aid, so I think we have a lot of free minds out there right now. Including all of us on these forums. I doubt talking about how bad it is is fixing anything over there.

1. That's if you agree that global warming has indeed occurred, which I don't. You can check out several sites previous posters to this thread have put up for support. Your logic is faulty. You cannot make a definitive conclusion that global warming caused Katrina, simply because we had an active hurricane season. Our life spans are insignificant in the overall scheme of things, and there is very little that supports the theory of global warming when taken over a larger time frame than just one century. It no more proves that global warming started in 1900 because of that hurricane than Katrina proves it now.

2. Maybe it's just me, but if I had lost my home, had no food or water, I doubt I would be thinking about global warming. More likely thinking about a hot meal and how to get the next one. And how to protect myself from the animal looters.

1. That's if you agree that global warming has indeed occurred, which I don't. You can check out several sites previous posters to this thread have put up for support. Your logic is faulty. You cannot make a definitive conclusion that global warming caused Katrina, simply because we had an active hurricane season. Our life spans are insignificant in the overall scheme of things, and there is very little that supports the theory of global warming when taken over a larger time frame than just one century. It no more proves that global warming started in 1900 because of that hurricane than Katrina proves it now.

2. Maybe it's just me, but if I had lost my home, had no food or water, I doubt I would be thinking about global warming. More likely thinking about a hot meal and how to get the next one. And how to protect myself from the animal looters.

I am going to look at the sites as soon as the dumb pages load! But, in the mean time, I'd like to point out that we can talk about it because we are not homeless and starving. Enless you are the leader of the rescue operation, which, apparently, Bush is having a hard time assembling due to the fact that Katrina snuck up and they had no warning what-so-ever.

Anyway, there is plenty to state that would account for freak weather over the last few years, and you only needed to be alive to know about it. I can barely recall a normal world. It's one of childhood memories. My grandmother can admit that there was a time when you knew what the whether would be like in the summer. You could count on it! But now... you can't count on spit. If you're willing to discredit ALL of the whether data, then maybe we'd better look at that post about science and america one more time on the main page of these forums.

Well, here's something I probably shouldn't post.

http://www.climate.org/topics/climate/hurricanes2004.shtml

Look at the stats and weep, they're all saying it's increased weather, and it's right! But keep reading and it talks about that cycle of the Atlantic waters or w/e. It's late here.

I must admit, I am shocked that, after all of my research, this hasn't come up yet! I will look into this, but I am still at the very least, concerned about the rising temperatures, the melting icebergs and blah blah blah.

Well, here's something I probably shouldn't post.

http://www.climate.org/topics/climate/hurricanes2004.shtml

Look at the stats and weep, they're all saying it's increased weather, and it's right! But keep reading and it talks about that cycle of the Atlantic waters or w/e. It's late here.

I must admit, I am shocked that, after all of my research, this hasn't come up yet! I will look into this, but I am still at the very least, concerned about the rising temperatures, the melting icebergs and blah blah blah.

http://www.junkscience.com

Well, here's something I probably shouldn't post.

http://www.climate.org/topics/climate/hurricanes2004.shtml

Look at the stats and weep, they're all saying it's increased weather, and it's right! But keep reading and it talks about that cycle of the Atlantic waters or w/e. It's late here.

I must admit, I am shocked that, after all of my research, this hasn't come up yet! I will look into this, but I am still at the very least, concerned about the rising temperatures, the melting icebergs and blah blah blah.

Surely you don't mean to claim that a single unusually active season is proof that global warming has made hurricanes worse, when the complete history shows no such trend?

Surely you don't mean to claim that a single unusually active season is proof that global warming has made hurricanes worse, when the complete history shows no such trend?

I don't think I understood your writing very clearly, but if you're trying to make me sound silly and stupid, I believe I've already questioned myself in the above thread, so if you prefer beating me down with a battered stick, there's one in the closet to your right.

And I think I've done better here than you guys, I don't care to win, I care about the truth, and that flipping site you're so confident in is not loading and all the off pages are not providng satisfactory scientific evidence it's claiming WE don't have. So I guess we're both in a guessing mode right now, ya?

2. I find it absolutely despicable that, while people are still being rescued and homes are still underwater, folks like you try to turn that misery into a political football. Who cares, at least at this point, if global warming had anything to do with the hurricane? I'd like to get some people rescued, fed, clothed, and into some new homes and jobs before playing politics. :mad:

I live in Alaska, what can I do except give financal aid and reflect upon the tragidy. I am sick and tired of people using the horror of Katrina as an emotional bludgen to attack those they disagree with! For your information I realized that in bringing this discussion up so soon was in poor judgement, nerves being so raw, and so I was going to let the thread die when the Mod's merged it with a thread on international aid ( :confused: for some reason).

What is dispicable is people who pretend that those writing posts on the aftermaths of the hurricane are some-how subtracting from the rescue/rebuilding efforts. Like I said above, I am currently in Alaska, what could I do but give aid and discuss this on the wired. I thought that I would do a comment on something more relevent then the 10,000th reason why god does not exist! Why don't you go critize them for argueing over things of no immediate signifigence! You (as well as others) are using the current situation in New Orleans as a means of personaly attacking people that say things of relevence that you do not like! :mad:

Surely you don't mean to claim that a single unusually active season is proof that global warming has made hurricanes worse, when the complete history shows no such trend?
To be honest, we don't know yet if the recent increase in hurricanes and hurricane strengths is due to our activities or whether it is natural. There are natural cycles in which the number and intensity of hurricanes increases naturally over a 30 year period. This has been shown in the records that scientists have been studying. However, that does not mean our activities have not made this season worse than it should be. We don't have enough data to make that determination yet.
As Bush said, we need more money to study global warming and its effects.

I live in Alaska, what can I do except give financal aid and reflect upon the tragidy. I am sick and tired of people using the horror of Katrina as an emotional bludgen to attack those they disagree with! For your information I realized that in bringing this discussion up so soon was in poor judgement, nerves being so raw, and so I was going to let the thread die when the Mod's merged it with a thread on international aid ( :confused: for some reason).

What is dispicable is people who pretend that those writing posts on the aftermaths of the hurricane are some-how subtracting from the rescue/rebuilding efforts. Like I said above, I am currently in Alaska, what could I do but give aid and discuss this on the wired. I thought that I would do a comment on something more relevent then the 10,000th reason why god does not exist! Why don't you go critize them for argueing over things of no immediate signifigence! You (as well as others) are using the current situation in New Orleans as a means of personaly attacking people that say things of relevence that you do not like! :mad:

I applaud your post, sir. And that post wasn't on God, it was on Christianity, THANK YOU! ;)

Surely you don't mean to claim that a single unusually active season is proof that global warming has made hurricanes worse, when the complete history shows no such trend?

The only history trend I see is that we have active and inactive seasons. We are during the Active period. It'll calm down soon enough.

They've issued shoot to kill orders to police re-entering the city.

Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_katrina) states that the international community has been contributing aid.

At this point, even the Bush administration admits that climate change is happening, folks. There's not much denying that.

For now, concentrate on what can be done to help the matter. Donate. Recriminations about budget cuts (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/8/31/205843/351), the shortage of available National Guard units, etc etc can be made in plenty after the dust has settled and the bodies counted.

Once again, I direct people to the great site, Real Climate. No politics, no bullshit, just hard science by people who know what they're talking about. The Talk Origins of Global Warming.

www.realclimate.org (http://www.realclimate.org)

I don't think I understood your writing very clearly, but if you're trying to make me sound silly and stupid, I believe I've already questioned myself in the above thread, so if you prefer beating me down with a battered stick, there's one in the closet to your right.

And I think I've done better here than you guys, I don't care to win, I care about the truth, and that flipping site you're so confident in is not loading and all the off pages are not providng satisfactory scientific evidence it's claiming WE don't have. So I guess we're both in a guessing mode right now, ya?

I'm sorry. As you said, it was late, and I'm still not quite sure what your intent was in posting that article. Could you explain?

Once again, I direct people to the great site, Real Climate. No politics, no bullshit, just hard science by people who know what they're talking about. The Talk Origins of Global Warming.

www.realclimate.org (http://www.realclimate.org)
Hmm I saw politics, bullshit and junk science on that site.
I'll see your realclimate.org and counter with www.junkscience.com (http://www.junkscience.com)

Hmm I saw politics, bullshit and junk science on that site.
I'll see your realclimate.org and counter with www.junkscience.com (http://www.junkscience.com)

I see little to no politics, bullshit, or junk science on the real-climate site.

I see little but politics, bullshit, and junk science on the site you linked to.