NationStates Jolt Archive

US and Cuba trade blows over boat
By Stephen Gibbs
BBC News, Havana

The governments of Cuba and the US have both blamed each other for the apparent deaths of 31 Cubans believed drowned while trying to leave Cuba on a boat.

Just three people survived after the speedboat reportedly overturned on 16 August, between Cuba and Florida.

The US Coast Guard, who say they are dealing with a surge in Cubans crossing the Florida Straits, called off its search for survivors on Wednesday.

But mystery still surrounds the precise circumstances of the shipwreck.

Automatic asylum

Two women and a man were found drifting at sea by a merchant ship around 50km north of the Cuban coast last week.

They had apparently been in the water for five days after their boat capsized.

They were brought back to Cuba, suffering from severe sunburn and dehydration.

The 31 passengers believed to be on the same speedboat are all now assumed drowned.

Cuba says that the US is responsible. Appearing on state television, President Fidel Castro blamed US immigration policy whereby Cubans who make it to American soil are usually granted automatic asylum.

Dangerous voyage

He described it as an incentive for Cubans to risk their lives in the dangerous voyage.

Cuba is also calling on the American authorities to do more to stop professional people smugglers who charge around $8,000 (£4,440) a head for a fast boat crossing from Cuba to Florida.

But the United States has retorted, saying Cuba is cynically trying to deflect blame from itself for the tragedy.

A strongly-worded statement released by the US Interests Section in Havana says those who died were attempting to flee political repression and government-inflicted impoverishment.

It says that while the US Coast Guard searched for survivors, Cuba did not.

It accuses the Cuban authorities of showing a blatant disregard for their citizens' welfare.

Can you honestly believe this guy? :rolleyes: Maybe if you didn't run an oppresive dictatorship, your citizens wouldn't risk their lives trying to escape from you.

Can you honestly believe this guy? :rolleyes: Maybe if you didn't run an oppresive dictatorship, your citizens wouldn't risk their lives trying to escape from you.
Mexicans do it...

Castro is a good man, and he has done nothing but good for his people. Personally, I'd rather live in Cuba, where I can feel safe and express my opinions, rather than Facist, Fundimentalist America.

:rolleyes: Silly troll (besides, rubber dingeys are what, a few bucks? Go buy one and take a little ride across the Gulf, just watch out for the bodies of NO citizens you were making fun of earlier)

There is no law banning Cubans from leaving their country but because of the US embargo the only way they can get to the USA is to travel illegally on their own boats, something that they are encouraged to do by Florida's insane immigration laws which are specifically aimed at Cuba. The government of Cuba is not particularly oppressive and provides far better public services than anywhere else in Latin America but it is only natural that some people will want to leave for somewhere they believe, often incorrectly, that they can become very wealthy. If it was easy and within the law for every Mexican to move to the USA then there would be hundreds of millions doing so within a few years.

Thank you Cpt_Cody.

Yes Mexicans do it too, just now I talked to a Mexican
friend of mine, he says most Mexicans come to earn
more money to send to thier familys in Mexico,
to return to Mexico and buy a good house, they dont
come for political reasons.

Cubans come for economic and political reasons,
because in Cuba econnomic reasons are political reasons,
cubans cannot go back and buy a house and live without
neighborhood commitees that keep records of your social
loyalty to the revolution unlike in Mexico where there is
personal freedoms.

The diffrences are many.

Some from Mexico come to make money and
start a business, in Cuba the state is the only legal employer. I can go on and on but this is just a small
exsample.

I Guess The South Islands, would like to live in a nation
where neigborhood commitees for the defense of the revolution would keep an eye on you, and keep records
of your social loyalty to the revolution.

Where they would keep records if you did free voluntary work or not, if you agree or disagree with government polycy or not.

If you attended a pro government march or not
when told to do so.

Where you cannot stay in your nations hotels with your national currency or Dollars or Euros sent to you by your overseas relatives, but your overseas relatives can stay in those same hotels.

Where there are rations cards that permit you to buy
certain foods or products only.

Where you are paid in your national currency, and your
foreign living relatives have to send you Dollars or Euros
so you can convert it to convertible pesos to buy most of your basic need products, bought only in those type of stores.

Where you will not be allowed to use a personal home computer and share your diffrent economic, political and social views on a site like Nationstates because President Fidel Castro for life would not allow it.

It seems like some of our fellow nations would like to live in a nation like that and would want their nation of origin to be like that, but gues what they have that right to think that way in thier nation of origin.

In Cuba if you disagree with any government policy you are against the revolution and are called worms.

Some of our fellow nations have called President Bush a dictator, when his term expires he will leave office and a new leader elected, compare that to President Fidel Castro for life and tell me who is a real dictator.

A one political party state nation.

Mexicans do it...
As La Habana pointed out (I assume you're Cuban, Habana? :) ) their differences make them seperate cases. The Mexican government afaik isn't actively arresting their people and throwing them in jail/torturing them because they don't follow the Party Line to the letter.

As La Habana pointed out (I assume you're Cuban, Habana? :) ) their differences make them seperate cases. The Mexican government afaik isn't actively arresting their people and throwing them in jail/torturing them because they don't follow the Party Line to the letter.
No, it's doing it for other reasons, but mostly not political. Although many of these differences are arranged, erm..., outside of court, so it's improbable to you'll get to see the inside of a jail in Mexico. A safehouse or the bottom of a ravine, maybe, but not the inside of a jail.

There is no law banning Cubans from leaving their country but because of the US embargo the only way they can get to the USA is to travel illegally on their own boats, something that they are encouraged to do by Florida's insane immigration laws which are specifically aimed at Cuba. The government of Cuba is not particularly oppressive and provides far better public services than anywhere else in Latin America but it is only natural that some people will want to leave for somewhere they believe, often incorrectly, that they can become very wealthy. If it was easy and within the law for every Mexican to move to the USA then there would be hundreds of millions doing so within a few years.

First off, it's not Florida's immigration laws, it's the US immigration laws. If Cuban citizens make it to our shores they are given political assylum because they're from a communist country. However, if our Coast Guard retrieves them before they reach land, they have no choice but to return them to Cuba. As far as not being particularly oppressive, they rank right up there with Turkmenistan, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, Syria and Burma. That puts them right at 133 ouf of 140 rated countries with some sort of liberties.
And now for Mexico. There are only 106 million Mexicans in Mexico so I doubt there will be hundreds of millions immirating anytime soon. However we do average half a million Mexicans each year putting our total illegal population somewhere around 40 million, more than a THIRD of Mexico's population so I dont think they care much about our laws. They desperately care about our schools and medical care, though I don't know why they both suck here unless you're wealthy. You might want to rethink your statements so you don't come off as just another US hater.

However we do average half a million Mexicans each year putting our total illegal population somewhere around 40 million, more than a THIRD of Mexico's population so I dont think they care much about our laws. They desperately care about our schools and medical care, though I don't know why they both suck here unless you're wealthy. You might want to rethink your statements so you don't come off as just another US hater.
Only about 12 million of those 40 million illegal immigrants actually come from Mexico. Not only don't they care enough about your immigration laws to go through the expensive and laborious process of getting an immigrant visa, which without education and money for settlement they're unlikely to get; they also don't care much about your schools and public health systems. What they care about most is not dieing of starvation in their own land. What has forced them and many others to break the US immigration law and risk their lives in the process is misery, not evilness.

Only about 12 million of those 40 million illegal immigrants actually come from Mexico. Not only don't they care enough about your immigration laws to go through the expensive and laborious process of getting an immigrant visa,hich without education and money for settlement they're unlikely to get; they also don't care much about your schools and public health systems.

I know a visa aplication costs $23. I know our healthcare and education systems are being drained by illegals that our laws prohibit from turning away and denying access. I know that Americans don't hate the Mexicans. We would prefer them to become naturlized and start contributing to the system instead of draining it, the same with all immigrants. It is much harder for Mexicans to become citizens than for Cubans. 10,000 illegal border crossings a day proves that and speaks volumes about our homeland security.

I think part of the problem is my posts on Cuba sound so outrageous it is not easy for other fellow nations to believe them.

I guess Isle of East America does not believe my posts on Cuba.

The Cuban Adjustment Act, allows Cubans to apply for legal status in the US, because of the opresive communist nature of the Cuban government.

The wet foot dry foot policy started under Clinton,
and followed by Bush, and approved by a court of law,
allows the Cubans who reach land to stay and those that
are intercepted to be returned to Cuba under the 1994 emigration agreement.

As a native Cuban I have to support the Cuban Adjustment Act because it helps my people, but I
have to admit that it is not fair to other ethnic groups,
and the law should be abolished, so I am in favor of
abolishing the law.

The Cuban government supports the end of the law too,
for reasons I cannot understand how it benefits them so
I wonder why.

The only thing I can think of is more Cubans emigrating legally means more money $ for the Cuban government.

Cuba does not do a good job of patrolling its borders against illegal emigration since it leaves it to the US,
on the other hand I have heard of many situations where
it has stopped illegal emigration attempts.

As I understand it, under the emigration agreement both sides are supposed to stop illegal emigration, Cuba by not
letting it take place, and the US by intercepting illegal immigrants.

But then there is the adjustment act.

Its a complex issue.

Cuba uses the threat of a massive Cuban rafter exodus
every time it wants something from the US, that is one
reason I dont understand how it would benefit the Cuban
government to abolish the law other than $.

Castro has been warned that if he allows another massive
Cuban rafter exodus it will mean war, and the end of the Cuban government.

I will make a seperate post on that.

I think part of the problem is my posts on Cuba sound so outrageous it is not easy for other fellow nations to believe them.

I guess Isle of East America does not believe my posts on Cuba.

.

On the contrary, I believe them without a doubt. I would welcome all Cubans to immigrate if it were up to me.

First off, it's not Florida's immigration laws, it's the US immigration laws. If Cuban citizens make it to our shores they are given political assylum because they're from a communist country. However, if our Coast Guard retrieves them before they reach land, they have no choice but to return them to Cuba.

I believe it is a law unique to Florida that people who arrive safely on their shores can legally reside in the state which is clearly aimed at encouraging Cubans to risk their lives by coming in small and unsafe boats.

As far as not being particularly oppressive, they rank right up there with Turkmenistan, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, Syria and Burma. That puts them right at 133 ouf of 140 rated countries with some sort of liberties.

It obviously very much depends on what rating is being used and whether the people behind it are biased in any way. It is true that Cuba is not always among the most democratic countries but its political system does allow people to directly nominate and vote for people within their community to be elected as members of parliament. People can also criticise the government without being arrested as we can see from recent opposition meetings that took place in Havana. Although so-called dissidents (some were actually CIA spies) have been arrested Cuba still has a better human rights record than many countries and the death penalty for example, although always wrong, is still used far less frequently than it is in the USA and never against political opponents. There are also no death squads or disappearences of people from the streets, something that is very common in all the US backed capitalist regimes of the region.

And now for Mexico. There are only 106 million Mexicans in Mexico so I doubt there will be hundreds of millions immirating anytime soon. However we do average half a million Mexicans each year putting our total illegal population somewhere around 40 million, more than a THIRD of Mexico's population so I dont think they care much about our laws. They desperately care about our schools and medical care, though I don't know why they both suck here unless you're wealthy. You might want to rethink your statements so you don't come off as just another US hater.

Maybe I got some of the numbers wrong but I was making the point that emmigration from poorer countries is perfectly normal, Mexico being an example, and therefore the Cuban government is at no particular fault politically or economically.

It obviously very much depends on what rating is being used and whether the people behind it are biased in any way. It is true that Cuba is not always among the most democratic countries but its political system does allow people to directly nominate and vote for people within their community to be elected as members of parliament. People can also criticise the government without being arrested as we can see from recent opposition meetings that took place in Havana. Although so-called dissidents (some were actually CIA spies) have been arrested Cuba still has a better human rights record than many countries and the death penalty for example, although always wrong, is still used far less frequently than it is in the USA and never against political opponents. There are also no death squads or disappearences of people from the streets, something that is very common in all the US backed capitalist regimes of the region.


Did you read La Habana Cuba's post above... I'm pretty sure he was posting about life in Cuba.

Thank you for your post
Isle of East America.

I must have miss understood,
I apologize for that.
La Habana Cuba.

Here is something I found about the daily life in Cuba. You tell me if this is not oppressive.daily life in Cuba (http://www.cartadecuba.org/Life%20in%20Red.htm)

I know a visa aplication costs $23.

A TOURIST visa application. A permanent resident or work visa costs about $200. Which may not sound like a lot but it can be a couple of months or more of salary for this people. Plus you have to submit a lot of documents, which vary in cost, and travel to the Embassy or Consulate for interviews.

However, the main problem is the complexity of navigating that system (just take a look at the USCIS site), and the time required to fulfill all the requirements, plus the conditions to be deemed acceptable to immigrate. That simply makes it impossible for many people.

I know our healthcare and education systems are being drained by illegals that our laws prohibit from turning away and denying access.

Yeah, but those illegal immigrants are also contributing to the economy not only by consuming, but also by producing at a lower cost.

I know that Americans don't hate the Mexicans. We would prefer them to become naturlized and start contributing to the system instead of draining it, the same with all immigrants. It is much harder for Mexicans to become citizens than for Cubans. 10,000 illegal border crossings a day proves that and speaks volumes about our homeland security.
No one has said otherwise. I would prefer it if so many Mexicans didn't feel the need to risk their lives and break the backs for a few dollars that they can't get at home. If emmigrating was really a choice for them, instead of necessity, and that it was in their reach to do so legally, would be best for all.

Why must La Habana Cuba always parse
his grammar in such away that it reads like free
verse suffering from ADHD. Dude, could you pleases lay off that ENTER button. of which you seem to be rather overly fond.
It makes it unpleasant to read your posts.

Which are otherwise quite full of good points.

Would you please
refrain from such
seemingly random
use of the enter button
and instead let your words
flow a little more naturally
across the screen?

Thank
you

Did you read La Habana Cuba's post above... I'm pretty sure he was posting about life in Cuba.

I have read it and I'm not denying that some of it is correct although often for good reasons. The economic measures which were put in place such as stores selling products that can only be bought with international currencies were certainly not the first choice of the government but are understandable in order to improve the economy and provide money for public services. The law against Cubans staying in hotels visited by tourists are also unfortunate but a necessary step to discourage prostitution. Rationing is needed to ensure that products, in short supply, are evenly distributed among the population. In regards to political freedoms as I said Cubans are free to nominate and elect representatives from their community to parliament. Some surveillance of citizens may take place but it is nothing that can't be done in the USA through the Patriot Act.

In a decision to help people with AEKD (Acute Enter Key DIsorder), I have decided to inform them of the fact the tables are wider than the text box you are tying things into and also applies the html tag <p> which wraps everything to find into a table of specified size split at the white space.

In regards to political freedoms as I said Cubans are free to nominate and elect representatives from their community to parliament. Some surveillance of citizens may take place but it is nothing that can't be done in the USA through the Patriot Act.

Are they free to nominate and elect reprsentatives? I've talked to many Cuban expatriots who would disagree with you. Party leaders come to their doors and make sure they vote a certain way and if not "bad things will happen."

Europaland you would not be allowed to
use a home computer on a site
like Nationstates to share your
diffrent economic, political and social views,
that alone should tell you something.

You would not be allowed access to
cable or satelite dishes.

I would lke to share a personal story
with my fellow nations, without
mentioning names, my girl cousin in Cuba,
has a better job than I do.

She works with computers in a government
company office, she is allowed to send me
emails as long as she dosent say anything bad.

I never say anything political, just recently
I send her an email, and a message came back
from Cuba not the US, saying not allowed for
political reasons, I am not the only native
Cuban this has happend too, and I wont
be the last one either.

She has a job that would pay good
anywhere in the world except Cuba
and she drives a byclye to work.

Cubans In Cuba have to ask thier
Cuban American and European relatives
for everything, I think that is why they
allowed her to telegram me, (email me).

Cuba trades with the European Union nations,
Canada, Australia, New Zeeland, Japan, Mexico
and other nations including the USA.

What they dont have are economic
and political freedoms, like you all
have in your nations of origin.

Cuba's National Assembly meets twice a year
or when convened by President Fidel Castro for life.

A TOURIST visa application. A permanent resident or work visa costs about $200. Which may not sound like a lot but it can be a couple of months or more of salary for this people. Plus you have to submit a lot of documents, which vary in cost, and travel to the Embassy or Consulate for interviews.

You forgot to mention the quota for work visas (already filled for FY2006) which effectively means they would have to get an immigration visa and a green card (unless they could afford to live for 7 years+ without working), and the green card system is so screwed up it is actually easier for an illegal already in the US to get one than for someone trying to immigrate. And the fact that emmigrating to the US can cost them Mexican citizenship, and a good number of them merely want to go to the US to work for a while so they can afford to return to thier homes and life a decent lifestyle, opportuneties for which type of work are non-existant in Mexico for most Mexicans.
---argh change most in last sentence to many.

---argh change most in last sentence to many.
Most is accurate. Between 55 and 60% live in poverty. About 20% in abject misery.

I* truly believe my fellow nations
that believe in a socialist form of government,
truly belive in a fair democratic
socialist or communist system.

The problem is no so called communist
nation has practiced it the way it should be.

When they come it to power they outlaw
every other political party but thier own.

All civil social organizations are put
under government control.

The European socialist nations,
concentrate more on providing
social services than state ownership
of everything.

That is why I think they can work
with diffrent political, economic,and
social views, and diffrent
political partys.

Once the state owns everything and
all social organizations are under
government control, there can be
no opposition to anything.

And it creates an automatic dictatorship.

Heh, heh, yeah.

Personally, I will hold a grudge against a dictator who tried to pressure the local Soviet commanders to fire their Luna-artillery shells at the US naval ships during the Missile Crisis, I will hold a grudge against the same dictator who attempted to get the same local Soviet commanders to shoot their FROG missiles at Florida, and I will hold a grudge against the same dictator who cabled Khruschev to launch the IRBMs and MRBs at targets all across the United States. Yeah, this Castro chap seems really nice, I mean wanting to actually start World War III and all.

I'd rather just see Castro die, with a moderate military dictatorship slowly devolving power to a real elected parliament (multi-party elections, what a shock!) And Cuba becoming friendly again.

(Might I peanut gallery about some of the laws that have been mentioned here, such as the bit about Cubans not being allowed to stay in hotels with foreigners. Perhaps I might recommend that you go beyond the official reason. Perhaps I might put forth the possibility that it's because of the same reason that the Eastern Bloc had laws against watching western television, or listening to western radio. Just a thought.)

Thank you, Cpt_Cody, Isle of East America, The Downmarching Void and Andaluciae, for your posts and comments.

Thank you Teh pantless Hero.

I will try to change my form of writing.


Thank you Europaland, for recognizing that some of what I say is correct, even though we disagree on the reasons for it.

La Habana Cuba

I have always thought very few of my fellow nations believe my outrageous sounding posts on Cuba have any substance to them.

Thank you all.

Castro is an ass. Chavez, his little monkey dancing to the organ, is not even competent enough to be an ass.

I am just wondering: based on the content of the posts above, it is hinted that living in an authoritarian state is ALWAYS a bad idea and that living in a democratic state is ALWAYS a good idea. How far can you justify that?

Heres something from a Cuban. My Grandad used to live in Cuba. he was a rich man. He owned a farm with lots of land. He had 3 kids. lots of animals and money. Until castro came....took it all away and he didnt have squat. They moved to America before things got a little out of control. My grandpa stayed though and fought against castro till he was shot and went to america.My Grandpa had alot in Cuba until that jackass Castro took over. Now there blaming us dfo what happened?? Uh-Uh. castro if you havent made life a living hell for Cubans because you took most of there money away and there land. Thats your fault Castro not the U.S. I damn rather live here than in Cuba even id Bush is the damn prez.

Heres something from a Cuban. My Grandad used to live in Cuba. he was a rich man. He owned a farm with lots of land. He had 3 kids. lots of animals and money. Until castro came....took it all away and he didnt have squat. They moved to America before things got a little out of control. My grandpa stayed though and fought against castro till he was shot and went to america.My Grandpa had alot in Cuba until that jackass Castro took over. Now there blaming us dfo what happened?? Uh-Uh. castro if you havent made life a living hell for Cubans because you took most of there money away and there land. Thats your fault Castro not the U.S. I damn rather live here than in Cuba even id Bush is the damn prez.


After the war the Soviets approriated all my families land and estates, stripped them of their titles and hounded them out of the country. Big fucking deal.

Get over it dude. The past is past.

Castro is a weiner though.

No what pisses me off is that we had a chance to stop it in the bay of the pigs invasion. No at the last minute we cut off support and all the Cuban rebels just gets total destoryed. We had a chance to kick Castros ass and toss him in the Ocean.

From La Habana Cuba to Dragons Bay, if I may, if anything the only thing President Fidel Castro has given the Cuban people is a free education and free healthcare, at the same time he has taken thier political, economic and social freedoms away.

The free voluntary work brigades, and if you dont volunter a record of your social disloyalty to the revolution would be one exsample, and being called a worm if you disagree with any government policy.

I ask all my fellow nations would we like to live in a nation like that as I have described just for free education and healthcare?

The socialist European nations provide all these social services without the political, economic and social freedoms taken away by the government.

If the Cuban people can change the laws of the government through thier elected representatives in the Cuban national assembly, dont we think they would have asked to be allowed to stay in thier own nations hotels with thier own national currency?

Would they not ask for the dismantalling of the neighborhood committees for the defense of the revolution
that keep an eye on them, and make reports of thier loyalty to the revolution?

Would they not ask their representatives to allow them to use thier own national currency to buy most of thier basic need prouducts?

What happend when former political prisoner Oswaldo Paya
collected over 10,000 signitures on a pettion called the Varela Project calling for a referandum on political reforms and a process to bring them about should the referandum pass, as allowed for in the Cuban constitution.

President Fidel Castro announced a 3 day counter pettion drive to declare the nations political, economic and social system unchangable in the constitution.

Where according to the Cuban government over 99.25 percent of eligible voters signed and approved it.

In a one party state nation where according to the Cuban government over 98 percent of eligible voters vote and
support all government canditates on a vote of all of the above apart from thier own representatives vote.

I only use the term President Fidel Castro to be politically correct.

I ask my fellow nations again would we like to live in a nation like that, and our nation of origin to be like that?

The Cuban National Assembly meets twice a year or when convened by President Fidel Castro, in the mean time all government decisions are made by the Council of State and the Council of Ministers of which President Fidel castro is the president of, he is also a member of parliment.

Does anyone believe that anyone in the parliment, council of state or council of ministers would go against a decision of policy by President Castro?