NationStates Jolt Archive


Looters and Martial Law (merged)

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Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 03:12
I'm not writing this to bitch about it. There has been an utter collapse of civiliaan control, and it just simply cannot be reestablished until the city can support humans again. But it is a bit scary to think of, nevertheless. Has the US ever declared martial law recently? You'd have to go back to the Civil War to find such a collapse of law and order.
Now, I lived through a small disaster a few years back: the Great Blackout of 2003. It was feared that there'd be widespread looting, as there was during the last big blackout in 1977. There was none, despite the blackout lasting two days, and the police too busy directing traffic to patrol the streets. There wasn't even that much in restive Detroit. Why? I'm a Northerner, so I can't help some bias. But the difference is appaling.
Desperate Measures
31-08-2005, 03:14
One reason might be that the blackout wasn't as physical as the flooding is. Nobody was forced from their homes and entire city streets were not deserted.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 03:16
One reason might be that the blackout wasn't as physical as the flooding is. Nobody was forced from their homes and entire city streets were not deserted.
Maybe. But it was still better than in '77.
Katganistan
31-08-2005, 03:17
I'm certainly not excusing people for being lawless, but these are desperate times for them. Certainly people will die from lack of potable water, and people are going hungry. Their city is underwater (25 feet deep in some places) and there are so many dead, they can't do anything but put a black mark on the doors of places they know contain them.

I'm not at all surprised that people have reverted to survival instincts and baser ones; but sitting in the comfort of our homes pointing at them and implying as others (not you) have that they are animals or that the color of their skin is making them act this way is what I find TRULY appalling.
National Commonwealth
31-08-2005, 03:19
One reason might be that the blackout wasn't as physical as the flooding is. Nobody was forced from their homes and entire city streets were not deserted.

Exactly. No one has to be fearful of a total loss of everything they've ever known when it's just the lights going out. IMO, it is ridiculous to compare a natural disaster of this magnitude to a simple two-day blackout. The psychology and the morale are totally different.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 03:20
I'm certainly not excusing people for being lawless, but these are desperate times for them. Certainly people will die from lack of potable water, and people are going hungry. Their city is underwater (25 feet deep in some places) and there are so many dead, they can't do anything but put a black mark on the doors of places they know contain them.

I'm not at all surprised that people have reverted to survival instincts and baser ones; but sitting in the comfort of our homes pointing at them and implying as others (not you) have that they are animals or that the color of their skin is making them act this way is what I find TRULY appalling.
Some of the looting I understand, even though I don't condone it. I hear many are reverting to carjacking in order to try and get out. But stealing things like TVs, jewelry, and things like that is just not acceptable. Neither is price gouging. Any price gougers in the martial law areas should be shot, too.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 03:21
Exactly. No one has to be fearful of a total loss of everything they've ever known when it's just the lights going out. IMO, it is ridiculous to compare a natural disaster of this magnitude to a simple two-day blackout. The psychology and the morale are totally different.
I don't think so. Both involve a collapse of law and order, and both involve a survival instinct, and a fear of the future. Yet they are different at some level.
Rotovia-
31-08-2005, 03:22
I am going to excuse them. Providing their lives actually are in danger, they have no food or water etc, then they are perfectly justified.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 03:24
I also want to ask if martial law is constitutional. I would imagine that it'd fall under the clause that suspends the writ of habeas corpus under special conditions, but I don't know. I'm not an expert.
BTW, the last time martial law was declared in the US was in WWII in Hawaii. Ever since Pearl Harbor, the entire archipelago was under Army control until the end of the war.
Katganistan
31-08-2005, 03:28
I agree with you on the looting -- but it's a mindless attempt to control SOMETHING in their lives.

Humans in general act pretty selfishly when they are terrified and in mortal danger -- and not at ALL rationally. It's our survival instinct to declare X pathc of stuff "mine." Where are they going to use a TV in that nightmarish hell? What use is jewelry except possibly to hock for money someplace else to start over?

I suspect that most of those folks have never done anything like that in their lives and will feel pretty ashamed once they are in safer environs -- when civilization takes over again.

They, at least, I can understand. Bastards like the ones looting at Ground Zero who travelled from other bloody states and countries to do so under the guise of being rescuers-- they're REAL evil bastards.
STCE Valua
31-08-2005, 03:31
I suppose if they are looting food or water, it's okay. No one else in their area needs it more right now. Not that people should loot or steal because they need food or water, but it's not like the food that people might be stealing now will ever be sold. Looting of luxury items shouldn't be allowed, though. I don't think that the martial law is bad, since most of the areas that it applies to are underwater or otherwise uninhabitable.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 03:31
I agree with you on the looting -- but it's a mindless attempt to control SOMETHING in their lives.

Humans in general act pretty selfishly when they are terrified and in mortal danger -- and not at ALL rationally. It's our survival instinct to declare X pathc of stuff "mine." Where are they going to use a TV in that nightmarish hell? What use is jewelry except possibly to hock for money someplace else to start over?

I suspect that most of those folks have never done anything like that in their lives and will feel pretty ashamed once they are in safer environs -- when civilization takes over again.
It's part of the reason martial law must be declared. In the absense of civilian control, reason must be replaced by force in guiding decisions.
They, at least, I can understand. Bastards like the ones looting at Ground Zero who travelled from other bloody states and countries to do so under the guise of being rescuers-- they're REAL evil bastards.
I don't remember that, but that would be very bad. There wasn't even a need for outsiders to loot, as their survival many miles away wasn't immediately threatened.
Rotovia-
31-08-2005, 03:33
I agree with you on the looting -- but it's a mindless attempt to control SOMETHING in their lives.

Humans in general act pretty selfishly when they are terrified and in mortal danger -- and not at ALL rationally. It's our survival instinct to declare X pathc of stuff "mine." Where are they going to use a TV in that nightmarish hell? What use is jewelry except possibly to hock for money someplace else to start over?

I suspect that most of those folks have never done anything like that in their lives and will feel pretty ashamed once they are in safer environs -- when civilization takes over again.

They, at least, I can understand. Bastards like the ones looting at Ground Zero who travelled from other bloody states and countries to do so under the guise of being rescuers-- they're REAL evil bastards.
Seconded.

Ps. Update your Blog.
MGE
31-08-2005, 03:36
If things are out of control then matrial law is ok, but as soon as things stablize it better be undeclared
Isle of East America
31-08-2005, 03:45
Has the US ever declared martial law recently?

Anytime a hurricane hits the US mainland, a curfew is set in order to prevent the looters. Tragedy can bring out the best in us but it also attracts the opportunists. I have lived in the south for the past 10 years, 7 of those years were right where Katrina struck Gulfport Mississippi. Back to point, the curfew itself is sort of a martial law, anyone that is not with emercency personnel will be arrested after curfew. It has happened in 6 of the hurricanes that I have been in.
Kaisemicia
31-08-2005, 03:46
Some of the looting I understand, even though I don't condone it. I hear many are reverting to carjacking in order to try and get out. But stealing things like TVs, jewelry, and things like that is just not acceptable. Neither is price gouging. Any price gougers in the martial law areas should be shot, too.

I would argue that, as deplorable as looting televisions and such are, it is hardly grounds to murder someone over. However expensive a television is, it is just a material object, and not even close to the worth of a human life.
Teh_pantless_hero
31-08-2005, 03:54
I would argue that, as deplorable as looting televisions and such are, it is hardly grounds to murder someone over. However expensive a television is, it is just a material object, and not even close to the worth of a human life.
And if you are hauling it out of a shop knee deep in water, its warranty has expired.
MGE
31-08-2005, 04:18
And if you are hauling it out of a shop knee deep in water, its warranty has expired.
LOL, You have a point there for stores
Schrandtopia
31-08-2005, 04:51
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#075195

America is built upon the idea that any individual can safely own property - when that right is threatened it is the job of the federal government to pwn some noobs. I think the national guard should be allowed to shoot looters. (ok, maybe just wing them, but you get the point)

your thoughts?
The Nazz
31-08-2005, 04:57
The city is drowning. Looting isn't the most important thing to worry about right now. Saving people's lives is the important thing, and if the National Guard is doing anything other than saving lives and getting people out of the city, then something is seriously wrong with us as a society.

Lives > property

It's not even close.
Chainik Hocker
31-08-2005, 04:58
http://www.wgst.com/script/headline_newsmanager.php?id=429965&pagecontent=nationalnews&feed_id=59

"We're so screwed," said one New Orleans police officer just before officers put on a show of force, brandishing shotguns and using batons to clear the growing crowd off Canal Street.

God bless the NOPD.

Hang the looters. Vultures.
Empryia
31-08-2005, 05:01
http://www.wgst.com/script/headline_newsmanager.php?id=429965&pagecontent=nationalnews&feed_id=59



God bless the NOPD.

Hang the looters. Vultures.


Completely agreed.

Why?

Because they're a criminal.
Chainik Hocker
31-08-2005, 05:01
The city is drowning. Looting isn't the most important thing to worry about right now. Saving people's lives is the important thing, and if the National Guard is doing anything other than saving lives and getting people out of the city, then something is seriously wrong with us as a society.

Lives > property

It's not even close.

Well the quoted story was written before the general evacuation order. So, yeah, now evacking the good citizens of New Orleans takes priority. So, NatGaurd and NOPD guys, if you can shoot looters without taking away from your evacuation-related duties, do so, otherwise let them go.
The Nazz
31-08-2005, 05:02
What--like they're going to be able to take anything with them when they're forced out of the city. Haven't you heard? The levees are fully breached. By tomorrow morning, the entire city will have at least 8 feet of water in it, and over 25 feet in places. You think that when the Coast Guard and National Guard comes to ship and airlift survivors out that they'll be able to carry that shit with them? Give me a break.
CthulhuFhtagn
31-08-2005, 05:07
Completely agreed.

Why?

Because they're a criminal.
So are jaywalkers. You advocate killing them?
Chainik Hocker
31-08-2005, 05:08
He means violent criminals.
Serapindal
31-08-2005, 05:08
Shooting Looters is the last chance. When they get violent, yes, we must shoot them.
Colodia
31-08-2005, 05:10
So are jaywalkers. You advocate killing them?
Your an awesome person for equalizing someone who look both ways to someone who's stealing jewelry.
Schrandtopia
31-08-2005, 05:10
The city is drowning. Looting isn't the most important thing to worry about right now.

for the police/national guard it is, they were brought in expressedly to prevent looting, the rest is up to other people - their job is to prevent looting and apparently they suck at it
Chainik Hocker
31-08-2005, 05:10
I don't know anything about matial law, but doesn't that mean you can shoot looters?
Empryia
31-08-2005, 05:11
hah, I guess my response was a little bit... um... untempered...

But seriously

You're entire city is going to get obliterated, and wtf do you do?

Go a loot a Walmart...

The idiocy speaks for itself, and we should euthanize idiots to put us out of our misery (jk).
CthulhuFhtagn
31-08-2005, 05:21
He means violent criminals.
Then he should have said that. (And calling looters "violent criminals" is seriosuly stretching the definition.)
The Nazz
31-08-2005, 05:23
for the police/national guard it is, they were brought in expressedly to prevent looting, the rest is up to other people - their job is to prevent looting and apparently they suck at it
Not any more--assuming it ever was to begin with. This is a catastrophe of epic proportions, and the only important thing is that the living be gotten out while there's time. Everything else is secondary. Preserve life, above all. Property means nothing at this point.
The Downmarching Void
31-08-2005, 05:23
hah, I guess my response was a little bit... um... untempered...

But seriously

You're entire city is going to get obliterated, and wtf do you do?

Go a loot a Walmart...

The idiocy speaks for itself, and we should euthanize idiots to put us out of our misery (jk).


Anyone who loots a Walmart when there's Neiman Marcus and countless high end places around is about 56 cards short of a deck to begin with.
Mitigation
31-08-2005, 05:25
I imagine you do what it takes to survive at this point. I'm not condoning thievery, but any perishable food in the city is just gonna go bad anyway. Eat up heh
Kaisemicia
31-08-2005, 05:26
Your an awesome person for equalizing someone who look both ways to someone who's stealing jewelry.

Oh, well, a piece of jewelry, that certainly justifies murder. Carry on!
Colodia
31-08-2005, 05:30
Oh, well, a piece of jewelry, that certainly justifies murder. Carry on!
From a single mother of 3! Who works TWO jobs!
Serapindal
31-08-2005, 05:39
Rioting and Looting can cause many deaths if it grows wide-spread in such a chaotic environment as this.

It may be regretabble, but shooting and/or incapicating them is the only choice.

If there is no other way to stop them, then yes, we must shoot them.
Kaisemicia
31-08-2005, 05:48
From a single mother of 3! Who works TWO jobs!

But it has been established that most of the looting is from stores, not individuals.

And who gives a shit if she has thirty kids. A hunk of jewelry is still not equal to a human life. A person's situation does not confer monetary worth on an item. If I'm living in a ghetto apartment and living hand to mouth, I have a free pass to murder if someone tries to take my PS2?
Sabbatis
31-08-2005, 05:50
Looting, and I refer primarily to the looting of clothing, electronics, and jewelry, is the beginning of serious lawlessness.

If that is permitted, then more violent crimes will begin - and that's very dangerous under the circumstances.

It's time to stop lawlessness. People have been ordered off the streets. They will then be informed that looters will be shot.

By tomorrow some idiot will want to see just how tough those Guard troops are, and will get his ass shot. Then the Rodney King-type politics will start, but I don't think anyone will be listening.
New Granada
31-08-2005, 05:53
Isnt it just stores that get looted?

Who cares, they are run by corporations and I imagine they are insured against the damage the flooding is causing.
Wizard Glass
31-08-2005, 05:56
Isnt it just stores that get looted?

Who cares, they are run by corporations and I imagine they are insured against the damage the flooding is causing.


Yes, because corporations don't have people who would be effected... in fact, they're 'just stores' and don't have people in them at all...

:rolleyes:
New Granada
31-08-2005, 06:13
Yes, because corporations don't have people who would be effected... in fact, they're 'just stores' and don't have people in them at all...

:rolleyes:


If any retail employees stayed behind to defend their beloved, water damaged wares, and were injured or killed by the looters I will concede the point.
ARF-COM and IBTL
31-08-2005, 06:30
If any retail employees stayed behind to defend their beloved, water damaged wares, and were injured or killed by the looters I will concede the point.

Anyone who fights for something easily replaced is a fool.

Someone who fights for something not easily replaced-an innocent life-should be praised.

Just my 2 cents.
Soviet Haaregrad
31-08-2005, 08:19
If I was there I'd loot from my store first. :p

The one I work in, not own.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 14:58
Anytime a hurricane hits the US mainland, a curfew is set in order to prevent the looters. Tragedy can bring out the best in us but it also attracts the opportunists. I have lived in the south for the past 10 years, 7 of those years were right where Katrina struck Gulfport Mississippi. Back to point, the curfew itself is sort of a martial law, anyone that is not with emercency personnel will be arrested after curfew. It has happened in 6 of the hurricanes that I have been in.
Still, there hasn't been an actual suspension of habeas corpus. I found out, btw, that martial law was last declared in Hawaii during WWII. However, I am not sure exactly why the army felt it needed to take control, unless they were afraid that one (or all) of the islands would be invaded.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 14:59
I would argue that, as deplorable as looting televisions and such are, it is hardly grounds to murder someone over. However expensive a television is, it is just a material object, and not even close to the worth of a human life.
You're right. They should shoot murderers, too.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 15:00
Looting, and I refer primarily to the looting of clothing, electronics, and jewelry, is the beginning of serious lawlessness.

If that is permitted, then more violent crimes will begin - and that's very dangerous under the circumstances.

It's time to stop lawlessness. People have been ordered off the streets. They will then be informed that looters will be shot.

By tomorrow some idiot will want to see just how tough those Guard troops are, and will get his ass shot. Then the Rodney King-type politics will start, but I don't think anyone will be listening.
Just hope that the idiot isn't black. Then, the race card will be played.
Mekonia
31-08-2005, 15:03
I'm not writing this to bitch about it. There has been an utter collapse of civiliaan control, and it just simply cannot be reestablished until the city can support humans again. But it is a bit scary to think of, nevertheless. Has the US ever declared martial law recently? You'd have to go back to the Civil War to find such a collapse of law and order.
Now, I lived through a small disaster a few years back: the Great Blackout of 2003. It was feared that there'd be widespread looting, as there was during the last big blackout in 1977. There was none, despite the blackout lasting two days, and the police too busy directing traffic to patrol the streets. There wasn't even that much in restive Detroit. Why? I'm a Northerner, so I can't help some bias. But the difference is appaling.


I don't see why they can't. I mean the place is just beyond lawlessness. But I suppose they just want to focus resources on the clean up and rescue.
Kanabia
31-08-2005, 15:09
It's time to stop lawlessness. People have been ordered off the streets. They will then be informed that looters will be shot.

By tomorrow some idiot will want to see just how tough those Guard troops are, and will get his ass shot. Then the Rodney King-type politics will start, but I don't think anyone will be listening.

Why do they need to be shot? Isn't taking them into custody enough? Why the need for death?
Liskeinland
31-08-2005, 15:10
As long as it's just looting for necessities, it's probably okay. Stealing valuables is stupid but… worse things could happen. As long as that's all that's happening, that's all you can hope for really.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 15:13
Why do they need to be shot? Isn't taking them into custody enough? Why the need for death?
I believe I can explain: there are no jails left, the police force is reduced to a ghost force, and there is absolutely no way to get these people to a court. It sounds cruel, but this is a city emergency. Desparate times need desparate measures. Hell, I never even thought I'd say this.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 15:17
Now, I found out that the Louisianna gov. declared martial law, and not the federal government. Does this mean that only the Nat. Guard can be used, or can those on active duty? I'd think it'd be necessary to bring in a few navy ships, and maybe elements of the army. The National Guard is not enough, and many areas are inaccessable because of floodwaters. I'd like to see army or navy helicopter gunships patrol the city. Leave search and rescure purely for the Coast Guard, though any of this new law enforcement will surely report those in need of rescue.
Fass
31-08-2005, 15:22
Photo 1. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/photos_tc_afp/050830194101_mzffh1jl_photo1)


Photo 2. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/480/ladm10208301530)

Read the captions. They're so typical. :(
Drunk commies deleted
31-08-2005, 15:24
That's fucked up.
Potaria
31-08-2005, 15:24
Ugh. Fucking dickheads.
Pinkerdom
31-08-2005, 15:25
well, lotus, it would be stupid for JUST the coast guard to rescue people, as there are thousands still trapped on roofs and in buildings. has anyone even CONSIDERED gulfport and other parts of mississippi and not just New Orleans?? gulfport was totally wiped out, i think the focus should be there.
Cabra West
31-08-2005, 15:28
Well, we always knew that, didn't we?
Grampus
31-08-2005, 15:29
Incredible.
Stondonia
31-08-2005, 15:32
That's disgraceful.
Robot ninja pirates
31-08-2005, 15:33
While looters piss me off, don't you think saying they're all black by 1 photo is just a little extreme?

Just a little?
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 15:33
Wow. That kind of casual racism shocks me more than out and out racism. It's a bit hard for me to really wrap my head around...don't get me wrong, racism is alive and well in Canada...but this just seems so weird. It's so matter of fact.
Jordaxia
31-08-2005, 15:35
RNP:

perhaps you mis-understood the phrasing of the text, as I nearly done before noticing who the poster was/reading the captions.

it's the fact that white people are "finding" food at grocery stores whilst black people are "looting" food from stores.

Exactly the same thing, but for a white person the caption has connotations of showing initiative, but for a black person, it's immediately a criminal act to the media.
Cabra West
31-08-2005, 15:35
While looters piss me off, don't you think saying they're all black by 1 photo is just a little extreme?

Just a little?

Um... I think you miss the point here.
On the picture of the white people, the activity called "looting" on the one of the black guy miraculously turns into "finding food"
Pinkerdom
31-08-2005, 15:35
fuck yahoo man. racist pig-dogs.
FourX
31-08-2005, 15:36
I really hope they get called up on this.

Gotta be the most blatant example of rascist bais in reporting ever.
Cannot think of a name
31-08-2005, 15:38
While looters piss me off, don't you think saying they're all black by 1 photo is just a little extreme?

Just a little?
You missed the point.


And to that point:
Sweet fucking crap. Just...dammit...it's actually frustrating. Goddamn.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 15:38
While looters piss me off, don't you think saying they're all black by 1 photo is just a little extreme?

Just a little?
Uh, no. It's amazing, but pictures in this case really don't speak louder than words. The issue is that the perception created by the use of two words completely alters the viewer's understanding of the context. In one, food is 'found'. In another, it is 'looted'. How do you 'find' food? You don't. You take food. The one caption completely downplays the theft, and makes it seem like an issue of survival. The other caption downplays the issue of survival and makes it look like a malicious crime...and to ignore which meaning is assigned to whom is foolish. It shows a deep-seated bias that manifests itself in a casual, matter of fact rendition of events. What a flawed worldview....
Compulsive Depression
31-08-2005, 15:38
I found it quite funny.

Do you really expect any better? Of the captioners, I mean.
Gollumidas
31-08-2005, 15:38
Sadly, I am not surprised in the least.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 15:38
well, lotus, it would be stupid for JUST the coast guard to rescue people, as there are thousands still trapped on roofs and in buildings. has anyone even CONSIDERED gulfport and other parts of mississippi and not just New Orleans?? gulfport was totally wiped out, i think the focus should be there.
a.) the coast guard is the only service able to do these rescues. They have been successful so far.
b.) I know that coastal Mississippi was wiped out. I have an acquantaince in Biloxi who did not evacuate. Yet Mississippi is not underwater. Normal rescue crews are more than able to safely rescue anyone trapped. Besides, less probably are, as they don't have to worry about flood water.
Edit: Mississippi says that they are no where near declaring martial law, and I believe them: civilian order is not collapsing, no will it in the future. However, I wanted you to know that anti-looting action is taking place. The police have cordoned off coastal Biloxi because of the casinos. If looters get into there, they will have a field day.
The Nazz
31-08-2005, 15:38
fuck yahoo man. racist pig-dogs.
It's not Yahoo--it's whoever wrote the headlines for the AP.
Fass
31-08-2005, 15:39
While looters piss me off, don't you think saying they're all black by 1 photo is just a little extreme?

Just a little?

I'm not the one saying it, at all! You're missing the entire point.

I'm pointing out the sort of daily racism that often goes unnoticed by the masses: white person gets food from a grocery store -> labelled as "finding food." Black person gets food from grocery store -> labelled as "looting."

Think about it!
Copiosa Scotia
31-08-2005, 15:40
That's pretty disgusting, yes.
Dark Shadowy Nexus
31-08-2005, 15:40
WoW

But I don't know about blaming Yahoo. I think Yahoo hosted it not created it.
The Nazz
31-08-2005, 15:41
Do you really expect any better? Of the captioners, I mean.
Actually, I do.
Cannot think of a name
31-08-2005, 15:42
Actually, I do.
At the very least we should.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 15:43
I think it would be a really interesting exercise to use these pictures and captions in a classroom as an example of how the particular words used to describe a situation can colour the reader's view. I'd split the class into three groups. One group would have the pictures with their captions. The second group would have the pictures, and would have to match the captions to them (with slight alterations to the captions so that it is not immediately clear who is the subject), and the last group, I'd give the pictures, with the captions reversed (again, with slight alterations so that they fit the subjects). It would be good to get the different viewpoints from each of these three groups, and compare how these viewpoints differed depending on the context assigned to the pictures.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 15:43
Photo 1. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/photos_tc_afp/050830194101_mzffh1jl_photo1)


Photo 2. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/480/ladm10208301530)

Read the captions. They're so typical. :(
Shoot them all. They are both breaking the law.
Mekonia
31-08-2005, 15:47
Photo 1. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/photos_tc_afp/050830194101_mzffh1jl_photo1)


Photo 2. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/480/ladm10208301530)

Read the captions. They're so typical. :(

I agree, I have no problem with looting a grocery store. Ppl need food. If the food is still fine then loot on my friends loot on.
Have a look at the newest New Orleans thread I think its something about fingers in the title. Its scary
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 15:47
Shoot them all. They are both breaking the law.
I don't begrudge that food to either group. It's a survival issue for both of them.
Automagfreek
31-08-2005, 15:47
Shoot them all. They are both breaking the law.

If it is food or medical supplies, I say let them go. The food is probably going to go bad anyways because there is no power in the grocery stores and no way to keep everything fresh for too long.

But stealing stereos, TV's, and other things of that nature....no. Your survival does not depend on you stealing a 50 inch TV......
Potaria
31-08-2005, 15:48
But stealing stereos, TV's, and other things of that nature....no. Your survival does not depend on you stealing a 50 inch TV......

Unless you sell said 50 inch TV for food money :p.
I am smart
31-08-2005, 15:48
Well if they just got that fresh bread its not so fresh now she let it get wet in the Brown water.
Luporum
31-08-2005, 15:50
I'm suprised photo 2 didn't say...

After Katrina hit we see here the african instinct of "hunter/gatherer" noticed how the young boy has that rolex clutched tightly so he might pawn it in turn for some cannibis and watermelon slices. His hommies will appraise him later by jumping his ass in a passage of rites in their culture.

I would have chuckled at that rather than the casual racist remark.
Balipo
31-08-2005, 15:50
While looters piss me off, don't you think saying they're all black by 1 photo is just a little extreme?

Just a little?

I think the point was that the white people (first pic) were doing the same thing. The idea is that they were "retrieving" the little black boy was looting.

And it is total bullshit. It's not looting for either people, it's attempted survival. The food stores are insured, they will see millions for this. Those people need to eat.
Frangland
31-08-2005, 15:50
I'm not the one saying it, at all! You're missing the entire point.

I'm pointing out the sort of daily racism that often goes unnoticed by the masses: white person gets food from a grocery store -> labelled as "finding food." Black person gets food from grocery store -> labelled as "looting."

Think about it!

yeah, bad

also:

black person speaks out against white people, and whether or not he is right, he is labelled an "equal-rights crusader"

white person speaks out about african-american gangs (or just gangs.... it's assumed he's talking about A-As and L-As) and he is a racist.

the double-standard is seen on both fronts.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 15:51
Just reading some of Kat's posts about the whole disaster, it sounds as if the spin really has been focused on people's skin colour throughout this whole thing. I suspect these captions are the least of it.
Rhoderick
31-08-2005, 15:52
I'm not sure if either constitutes looting, but the point is made about subtle racism - hope america has the equivilant of the Commission for Racial Equality here in Britain to make a fuss about it.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 15:55
I would have chuckled at that rather than the casual racist remark.
That's what I mean...the casualness of it, the matter of fact spin shocks me so much more than outright, ridiculous racism. The worst thing is, whoever wrote this probably doesn't consider themselves racist, or even noticed the different way the pictures were captioned....(even if they were done by different people, I imagine the person who captioned the 'looter' feels quite justified in using the term).
Frangland
31-08-2005, 15:57
it's funny

The mayor of Nawlins made it loud and clear to the people of Nawlins that they were to evacuate... yet so many stayed behind. Probable reasons:

1)They had no way to get out (or didn't try to find anyone to help them, or couldn't get anyone to help them if they did try).

2)They thought (somehow... or at least this is the excuse) that the storm wouldn't be so bad... so they stayed. This is an admission that they had knowledge of the storm.

3)They are criminals living outside of prison, and they stayed behind to steal others' possessions.

4)They didn't hear about Katrina or the mayor's plea for them to leave the city. (no, not everyone watches TV, listens to the radio, reads a newspaper or talks to anyone... lol)

I would imagine that 1 and 4 are the most legit excuses... 2 is an admission of mental retardation or a lame excuse for staying behind to loot (#3).

Whatever, anyone caught taking non-essential items (food, water, toilet paper, etc.) should be prosecuted, imo.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 15:58
yeah, bad

also:

black person speaks out against white people, and whether or not he is right, he is labelled an "equal-rights crusader"

white person speaks out about african-american gangs (or just gangs.... it's assumed he's talking about A-As and L-As) and he is a racist.

the double-standard is seen on both fronts.
Who are the ones spinning that double-standard, hmmm? I think we are influenced by the media much more than we even consciously realise. Someone speaks out about racism PERIOD, to me, is tackling a very difficult, and emotionally charged issue. It's other people that label them this, or that...and too often we just accept those labels as describing the truth. I doubt the people themselves have accepted, or asked for those labels. So maybe we need to start rejecting them.
Kanabia
31-08-2005, 15:59
Heh.

I was flipping between Fox News and CNN earlier today.

Every single looter shown on Fox News (in about 10 minutes of footage) was black.

On CNN, there were more white people than black shown looting, in about the same length of view time.

Go figure.
Potaria
31-08-2005, 16:00
anyone caught taking non-essential items (food, water, toilet paper, etc.) should be prosecuted, imo.

Ah, so food, water, toilet paper, and similar things are "non-essential" now?
Devon Land
31-08-2005, 16:01
...Whatever, anyone caught taking non-essential items (food, water, toilet paper, etc.) should be prosecuted, imo.

I fail to see how food,water and even toilet paper are non-essential. I sure hope you were being sarcastic.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 16:01
I don't begrudge that food to either group. It's a survival issue for both of them.
If they want food so badly, they should try and signal for help. As an evacuation of the city is under way, they have plenty of places to go. Otherwise, they are breaking the law. I have no tolerance for looters of any kind, and neither should the Louisianna Natl. Guard.
Luporum
31-08-2005, 16:02
Ah, so food, water, toilet paper, and similar things are "non-essential" now?

I think he was listing them as essential items :)
FourX
31-08-2005, 16:03
I fail to see how food,water and even toilet paper are non-essential. I sure hope you were being sarcastic.

I think he just got the grammer a little off and was intending to list them as essential
Jjimjja
31-08-2005, 16:03
Photo 1. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/photos_tc_afp/050830194101_mzffh1jl_photo1)


Photo 2. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/480/ladm10208301530)

Read the captions. They're so typical. :(

could the captions also be related to the products we see?
white person i see bread, with the black person its pepsi.

actually would make a good pepsi advert.....
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 16:04
I was just thinking that the federal government should temporarily take over administration of the city. They are the only ones that can offer the coordination needed for such a massive cleanup effort. Besides, the Army Corp of Engineers operates the pumps and levees down there, so they'll get in there, anyhow.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 16:06
Whatever, anyone caught taking non-essential items (jewlery, electronics, paintings, etc.) should be prosecuted, imo.
I changed that so it actually makes sense.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 16:08
If they want food so badly, they should try and signal for help. As an evacuation of the city is under way, they have plenty of places to go. Otherwise, they are breaking the law. I have no tolerance for looters of any kind, and neither should the Louisianna Natl. Guard.
You have a lot of faith in the National Guard, and whatever aid agencies are in the area. But they are not supermen/women. They can not possibly help everyone at once. Right now, people need to take care of themselves if they want to survive, and that's the reality of the situation. Help should be looked for, but not counted on.
Valosia
31-08-2005, 16:14
Well, in the first photo, they took bread and soda, which could be for basic food needs. $1.50 at most. In the second picture, that dude clearly has a whole GARBAGE BAG of stuff. Unless he's feeding a family, he definitely took more than he needed.

There's a difference between taking a $1.50 worth of stuff because you need to, and $20+ because you can.
Kanabia
31-08-2005, 16:23
I believe I can explain: there are no jails left, the police force is reduced to a ghost force, and there is absolutely no way to get these people to a court. It sounds cruel, but this is a city emergency. Desparate times need desparate measures. Hell, I never even thought I'd say this.

Incarcerate them in a guarded tent, or something, then. Execution without trial is a breach of human rights no matter the circumstances - especially for something such as theft.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 16:25
Well, in the first photo, they took bread and soda, which could be for basic food needs. $1.50 at most. In the second picture, that dude clearly has a whole GARBAGE BAG of stuff. Unless he's feeding a family, he definitely took more than he needed.

There's a difference between taking a $1.50 worth of stuff because you need to, and $20+ because you can.
I knew the quantity would be brought up. Let's examine that, shall we?

The white couple...both have backpacks...who knows how much they shoved into them? And who knows if the food they took was the last of the lot...just because they couldn't get more doesn't mean they left food lying around because they 'didn't need it'. And it could be that they are just getting food for themselves.

The black boy...the garbage bag could not possibly be as full as you are assuming, or it wouldn't be floating. He didn't have a backpack, so he used a garbage bag. He could also be taking that food to a group of people. The fact is, we don't know.

All three people TOOK food. One is judged morally right, the other is judged to be a criminal.
Compulsive Depression
31-08-2005, 16:27
(even if they were done by different people, I imagine the person who captioned the 'looter' feels quite justified in using the term).
Actually it looks like the pictures are credited to different people.

Perhaps Picture 1's captioner would view all such food-liberating people as surviving, and picture 2's captioner would view them all as looters?

Perhaps the colour of the subjects' skin is incidental. Unless you know both pictures are captioned by the same person you can't really pass judgement. You just don't know.
The Infinite Dunes
31-08-2005, 16:28
I think you're blowing this whole thing out of proportion.

I can think of a number of reasons that those captions aren't racist.

Weakest point: There are over 500 images there. If the captions were all written by the same person, do you really think they could remember every single caption they wrote. (Though sub-concious racism could still be applicable)

Second weakest: The woman in the first picture looks mixed race (ie black in the eyes of the press, who are mainly selling to a middle class white audience).

Second strongest point: The guy has a whole bag of stuff, compared to the women's two items.

Strongest point: The captions probably weren't written by Yahoo, but by the respective news agencies that yahoo got the photos off. AFP, and AP in this case. Written by two different people, who might have labeled the pictures the same way if they had both pictures.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 16:28
Notice as well...the white couple are described as 'residents' while the black boy (who looks awfully young actually...) is not afforded that title. Like he's an outsider, or an opportunist.
Peechland
31-08-2005, 16:29
Well, in the first photo, they took bread and soda, which could be for basic food needs. $1.50 at most. In the second picture, that dude clearly has a whole GARBAGE BAG of stuff. Unless he's feeding a family, he definitely took more than he needed.

There's a difference between taking a $1.50 worth of stuff because you need to, and $20+ because you can.


Maybe he does have a family to feed. Maybe he has 4 brothers and sisters , mom and dad , and grandparents who arent strong enough to wade through the water. We dont know. We shouldnt speculate. Its a horrible situation down there and if it were me, I'd be floating down Bourbon Street atop a garbage bag full of food and diapers. If people are taking food, so what??? No, I dont think they should be taking t.v.'s and stereos and whatnot. But bread and soda? What the hell is the harm in that? Honestly....everyone should put themselves in these people's shoes. Most of us have never experienced a natural disaster. It's easy for us to say what we would or wouldnt do.......
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 16:30
Maybe he does have a family to feed. Maybe he has 4 brothers and sisters , mom and dad , and grandparents who arent strong enough to wade through the water. We dont know. We shouldnt speculate. Its a horrible situation down there and if it were me, I'd be floating down Bourbon Street atop a garbage bag full of food and diapers. If people are taking food, so what??? No, I dont think they should be taking t.v.'s and stereos and whatnot. But bread and soda? What the hell is the harm in that? Honestly....everyone should put themselves in these people's shoes. Most of us have never experienced a natural disaster. It's easy for us to say what we would or wouldnt do.......
Amen.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 16:35
Now granted, the captions could have been written by different people, and some valid points about that have been brought up. But regardless of the worldview of the captioneer, a certain slant is most certainly presented to the viewer. And stereotypes are being quietly reinforced. It's important to bring things like this up so you bring those stereotypes up to the level of consciousness, examine them, and reject or accept them. Too often, we simply read and accept, without putting our filters on. To me, the important thing is not necessarily, 'was this meant to be racist', but rather, 'are you going to accept these versions of reality as both inherently true'?
Laerod
31-08-2005, 16:36
Looting: Food is acceptable if they loot it to eat it (hoarding it and selling it isn't right). The same goes for anything else necessary to survive. Jewlery and electronics aren't necessary for survival, so I don't see how that's acceptable.
Free Soviets
31-08-2005, 16:36
Well, in the first photo, they took bread and soda, which could be for basic food needs. $1.50 at most. In the second picture, that dude clearly has a whole GARBAGE BAG of stuff. Unless he's feeding a family, he definitely took more than he needed.

There's a difference between taking a $1.50 worth of stuff because you need to, and $20+ because you can.

no there isn't. not when survival is an issue. not when the available food has already mostly gone bad. anything you can carry is completely justified. if you don't take it now, you'll just need to take it tomorrow, when it might not be there.

and that couple has backpacks. backpacks that were almost certainly brought along to aid them in carrying stuff back.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 16:38
Looting: Food is acceptable if they loot it to eat it (hoarding it and selling it isn't right). The same goes for anything else necessary to survive. Jewlery and electronics aren't necessary for survival, so I don't see how that's acceptable.
I don't think anyone really thinks that jewlery and electronics are acceptable thefts.
Peechland
31-08-2005, 16:39
And by the way, living in the South my entire life, I've seen some very obvious instances of racism. Its like no one down there knows its 2005. I was waiting in line at Wal-Mart one day and I watched people go in and out. Well you know how people put the larger items on the bottom of the shopping cart? (Like cases of sodas, big packs of paper towels, etc.) Well I watched probably 5 or 6 white people exit the store with no problem.....but then a black lady was stopped and asked for her receipt for whatever she had on the bottom of the cart. I thought it might have been coincidence at first, except that the next buggy was a hispanic lady. She was also stopped and asked for her receipt for the bottom items. The next person to leave was a white lady. She had several items on the bottom.....but she wasnt stopped. Thats just one small example of how things operate in most of the Southern states. sadness.

edit: as I left the store that day...I stopped and showed the greeter my receipt....she said "oh thats ok honey...i know youre alright." i just walked away shaking my head.
Laerod
31-08-2005, 16:41
I don't think anyone really thinks that jewlery and electronics are acceptable thefts.If that were the case, then no one would be looting them, would they? ;)
Sick Dreams
31-08-2005, 16:48
I think the only thing that REALLY pissed me off were the looters that they filmed taken NON essential items, who turned to the cameras and laughed and smiled! No remorse, no shame, just "ha ha look what I can steal" And as far as skin color, I'm not saying its one or the other. Just watch all the channels, and see who it is for yourselves!
Raem
31-08-2005, 16:49
Just a little Devil's Advocate here:

How do you know the captions aren't accurrate? It's possible to "find" food in the aftermath of a hurricane, just by walking down the street. Hurricane blows the front of a store away, wind and water come, sweep out the contents of the store and deposit food items all across the streets. There's honestly no way of telling what food came from what store, and it's all going to start rotting anyway.

You have no way of knowing if the photographer witnessed how these people got what they took, if the white couple found a loaf of bread hanging off a windowsill or something. There's a difference between picking up what's lying in a gutter and breaking into a store to take food.
Carnivorous Lickers
31-08-2005, 16:50
This whole fucking arguement is so stupid, its reprehensible.

We have human beings in the most dire of circumstances-totally miserable-no clear hope in sight, chest deep in swill that will soon become cholera and malaria soup, being photographed for profit. All their worldy possessions are likely gone or destroyed, aside from what they can carry. No more jobs-at least for a while-no income right now and no access to what they might have in the bank. Its in the 90s there with high humidity-the water is filthy and still rising-these people couldnt be more uncomfortable and there is no relief in sight. And we have comfortable, well fed people, many of which have very little first hand experience with any adversity, let alone one of this magnatude, speculating and assuming.

I've seen people of varying complexions carrying food items, clothing out of stores. I saw footage of a pawn shop being emptied and a young man carrying a rack of men's neck ties.

Stop trying to rationsalize, justify and interpret whats happening down there-most of you dont knowwhat you're talking about anyway- its HELL and I wouldnt wish it on anyone.

We will now get a roller coaster ride of stories, ranging from selfless heros risking their lives and safety to help others and we will also have the scum bag, gouging, scamming and looting opportunists. This tragedy will breed trainloads of both and the press will feed them to us for months.

Do something to help, dont look for problems to bitch about. Now is a time for people that feel they are good to do something good. You know the bad ones wont waste any time getting down to business.
Peechland
31-08-2005, 16:53
Just a little Devil's Advocate here:

How do you know the captions aren't accurrate? It's possible to "find" food in the aftermath of a hurricane, just by walking down the street. Hurricane blows the front of a store away, wind and water come, sweep out the contents of the store and deposit food items all across the streets. There's honestly no way of telling what food came from what store, and it's all going to start rotting anyway.

You have no way of knowing if the photographer witness how these people got what they took, if the white couple found a loaf of bread hanging off a windowsill or something. There's a difference between picking up what's lying in a gutter and breaking into a store to take food.


yeah -the difference is.....who will survive the longest. I'm sure they didnt have to break into a store. By the looks of things, you could just swim on in to any grocery store you find. If you are standing in 4 feet of water and everything you own has been washed away....then you dont have much of a choice.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 16:55
If that were the case, then no one would be looting them, would they? ;)
It doesn't mean they actually think it's acceptable. Nor are others going to be justifying their thefts on the basis of survival.
Raem
31-08-2005, 16:55
That's incidental to the point, Peech.
Compulsive Depression
31-08-2005, 16:55
It's important to bring things like this up so you bring those stereotypes up to the level of consciousness, examine them, and reject or accept them. Too often, we simply read and accept, without putting our filters on. To me, the important thing is not necessarily, 'was this meant to be racist', but rather, 'are you going to accept these versions of reality as both inherently true'?
Accepted, and agreed.

But did you notice that everyone (myself included) was faster to shout "racist" than to point out that it could be explained otherwise?

Maybe the bias is sometimes the other way 'round...
Which is also funny.
Jjimjja
31-08-2005, 16:57
snip

been to new orleans and i found black people quite racist and quite hostile.
went to a "Popey's" and they would not serve me!!! was the only white person in there and it took 30mins to get served whereas every black person got dserved more or less straight away, even if they came in after me. good chicken though.
Peechland
31-08-2005, 16:59
been to new orleans and i found black people quite racist and quite hostile.
went to a "Popey's" and they would not serve me!!! was the only white person in there and it took 30mins to get served whereas every black person got dserved more or less straight away, even if they came in after me. good chicken though.


well go to Wal-Mart in Georgia....they will treat you like a king...if youre white
Khudros
31-08-2005, 16:59
If they want food so badly, they should try and signal for help. As an evacuation of the city is under way, they have plenty of places to go. Otherwise, they are breaking the law. I have no tolerance for looters of any kind, and neither should the Louisianna Natl. Guard.

Oh is that so. Well guess what: 100,000 people couldn't leave before the storm hit and were subsequently left behind, abandoned by the very authorities who you claim would now only help them if they asked nicely enough. And the city's planned superdome refuge is part of the disaster area. So what makes you think the state of Louisiana is even capable of feeding these people, much less willing to?
Jjimjja
31-08-2005, 17:00
know its a bit off topic, but seemed that there was just alot of random racism there
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 17:01
This whole fucking arguement is so stupid, its reprehensible.

Stop trying to rationsalize, justify and interpret whats happening down there-most of you dont knowwhat you're talking about anyway- its HELL and I wouldnt wish it on anyone.

Do something to help, dont look for problems to bitch about. Now is a time for people that feel they are good to do something good. You know the bad ones wont waste any time getting down to business.
It's not a matter of finding things to bitch about, Carn. It's a little bit of a wake up call as to how events can be interpreted so differently, and it's important. Yes, it's a disaster, and christ, I don't think ANY of us would wish it on others. But how disasters, or even regular events are spun, impact us...especially those of us far removed from the reality of the situation. It's important to realise that, and not unthinkingly internalise the spin we are given.

I'm glad people are discussing this. It means they are actually trying to imagine being in the situation, or are analysing their particular belief systems in regards to theft, disaster, race, the media and so on. It's not disrespectful, it's not ignoring the problem, it's a way of dealing with the information we're being given.
Tekania
31-08-2005, 17:03
Photo 1. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/photos_tc_afp/050830194101_mzffh1jl_photo1)


Photo 2. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/480/ladm10208301530)

Read the captions. They're so typical. :(

Um... Photo 1 is not two white people....
Free Soviets
31-08-2005, 17:05
I don't think anyone really thinks that jewlery and electronics are acceptable thefts.

i might.

your home is pretty much destroyed if it's still standing at all. all your other possessions have either been wrecked or washed away. and you'll probably be unemployed for quite sometime even if you manage to avoid dying or getting sick from the lack of food and clean water and the disease that follows disasters like this. things look pretty bleak. but that jewelry store has plenty of insurance - they'll be fine. certainly no worse off than you will be. and you'll at least have something of value in the future, rather than just having debts.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 17:06
Accepted, and agreed.

But did you notice that everyone (myself included) was faster to shout "racist" than to point out that it could be explained otherwise?
It is racist, taken in this particular context. Even if the intent was not to be racist, even if the reasons already given apply (one captioneer considers all thefts to be the result of looting, the other considers all thefts to be a survival issue). As with all media reportings, we aren't given the complete story, we have to make judgements based on what we are presented with. The real situation is obscured, and we may never really know...but how we react to it is important. We accept the different take on it...we internalise the fact that light-skinned people 'find' and blacks 'loot', or we go...'hey wait....something's not right'. The original intent matters not nearly as much as our reactions.

It would be very interesting had the captions been reversed...a useful exercise in perceptions...I'd like to try it...
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 17:07
Um... Photo 1 is not two white people....
On first glance...and the woman may just be tanned. Point is, they are most obviously of lighter skin than the fellow in the second photo.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 17:09
i might.

your home is pretty much destroyed if it's still standing at all. all your other possessions have either been wrecked or washed away. and you'll probably be unemployed for quite sometime even if you manage to avoid dying or getting sick from the lack of food and clean water and the disease that follows disasters like this. things look pretty bleak. but that jewelry store has plenty of insurance - they'll be fine. certainly no worse off than you will be. and you'll at least have something of value in the future, rather than just having debts.
Mmmm...but considering the level of the disaster, lugging a stereo around in the water (which will probably ruin it anyway) makes a lot less survival sense than grabbing food. Now, when the waters receed, I suspect the looting of non-essentials will increase as the immediate needs for food and water become less of a life and death issue, and the points you've brought up will come into play.
PaulJeekistan
31-08-2005, 17:10
Photo 1. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/photos_tc_afp/050830194101_mzffh1jl_photo1)


Photo 2. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/480/ladm10208301530)

Read the captions. They're so typical. :(

Keep flipping through the photos. There's pictures of 'looting' with white fols in it too.....
Sick Dreams
31-08-2005, 17:13
I agree with you on the looting -- but it's a mindless attempt to control SOMETHING in their lives.

Humans in general act pretty selfishly when they are terrified and in mortal danger
I don't know what humans you know, but the "Humans in general" I know act heroic and selflessly when terrified and in mortal danger. If you wanna generalize all humans as cowardly scumbags under pressure, do so in a less general manner.
Tekania
31-08-2005, 17:14
Uh, no. It's amazing, but pictures in this case really don't speak louder than words. The issue is that the perception created by the use of two words completely alters the viewer's understanding of the context. In one, food is 'found'. In another, it is 'looted'. How do you 'find' food? You don't. You take food. The one caption completely downplays the theft, and makes it seem like an issue of survival. The other caption downplays the issue of survival and makes it look like a malicious crime...and to ignore which meaning is assigned to whom is foolish. It shows a deep-seated bias that manifests itself in a casual, matter of fact rendition of events. What a flawed worldview....

Yes, we all know 30 pairs of jeans, and all that jewlry is "survival" material...

The issues are seperate... As well as the story backgrounds behind the two.

The first couple, (of which at least one was Creole) "Finding" a couple bottles of soda and some bread at a store (while stolen material); is far different than a single boy dragging a duffle-bag full of crap he ransacked from a store. Mostly composed of non-survival-related material.

So much for your argument....
Jjimjja
31-08-2005, 17:14
i might.

your home is pretty much destroyed if it's still standing at all. all your other possessions have either been wrecked or washed away....

or stolen by looters
Corneliu
31-08-2005, 17:14
martial law in Louisiana? Interesting. I hadn't seen martial law declared in an area since Lincoln did it in Maryland in the 1860s. Don't know if it occured after that though.

Hopefully, this will help restore order. Those looters should be ashamed of themselves.
Carnivorous Lickers
31-08-2005, 17:14
It's not a matter of finding things to bitch about, Carn. It's a little bit of a wake up call as to how events can be interpreted so differently, and it's important. Yes, it's a disaster, and christ, I don't think ANY of us would wish it on others. But how disasters, or even regular events are spun, impact us...especially those of us far removed from the reality of the situation. It's important to realise that, and not unthinkingly internalise the spin we are given.

I'm glad people are discussing this. It means they are actually trying to imagine being in the situation, or are analysing their particular belief systems in regards to theft, disaster, race, the media and so on. It's not disrespectful, it's not ignoring the problem, it's a way of dealing with the information we're being given.


Maybe everyone's time could be better used making an effort to help, rather than trying to micro analyse photos and innuendos.

Blacks and whites arent fighting each other down there, as far as I can tell. They are all in the shit together and I've seen many instances of people of varying colors helping other people of varying colors.

And people discussing things in here leads to what? More arguments, no solutions and usually near world record evidence of stupidty. Sorry- there is little or no importance in the real world as to how people, thousands of miles away, feel about a caption on a photo.

Start a thread about how people can help, rather than how they percieve others to hate. its a non-story-dont let it get to be one. Just discussing this stupidity is making racisim-that really isnt there as of now-somehow valid.
Right now, people are just trying to live. What are you trying to do?
New Granada
31-08-2005, 17:18
If I was there I'd loot from my store first. :p

The one I work in, not own.


Think of the poor execs who will have to read papers saying one of their stores in new orleans got looted!

O, the tragedy of it all.
You're going to make Wizard Glass cry.
Jjimjja
31-08-2005, 17:21
errr....
is it possible the person who took the photo saw the kid looting the store?

or it was 2 separate fotographers who interpret what they each saw differently?
Tekania
31-08-2005, 17:23
i might.

your home is pretty much destroyed if it's still standing at all. all your other possessions have either been wrecked or washed away. and you'll probably be unemployed for quite sometime even if you manage to avoid dying or getting sick from the lack of food and clean water and the disease that follows disasters like this. things look pretty bleak. but that jewelry store has plenty of insurance - they'll be fine. certainly no worse off than you will be. and you'll at least have something of value in the future, rather than just having debts.

As if the business owner will be fine, after all this. And he will be employed... And of course, none of his stuff was destroyed, even though he lived there too...

Tunnel vision is a horrible thing, you should look at getting that corrected.
Tekania
31-08-2005, 17:24
Also, let's not forget, that the two images and captions are from SEPERATE NEWS AGENCIES!

The first is AFP, a French Worldwide news outlet.

The Second, is the AP.
Jjimjja
31-08-2005, 17:26
Also, let's not forget, that the two images and captions are from SEPERATE NEWS AGENCIES!

The first is AFP, a French Worldwide news outlet.

The Second, is the AP.

EVERYONE SHOULD READ WHAT TEK HAS JUST SAID.

kinda kiils the racist argument a bit....
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 17:27
Yes, we all know 30 pairs of jeans, and all that jewlry is "survival" material...

The issues are seperate... As well as the story backgrounds behind the two.

The first couple, (of which at least one was Creole) "Finding" a couple bottles of soda and some bread at a store (while stolen material); is far different than a single boy dragging a duffle-bag full of crap he ransacked from a store. Mostly composed of non-survival-related material.

So much for your argument....
Spare me. You no more know the details of these two situations than the rest of us.

And nowhere did I ever suggest it was acceptable to steal jewlery and jeans, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't make spurious insinutations.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 17:28
errr....
is it possible the person who took the photo saw the kid looting the store?

or it was 2 separate fotographers who interpret what they each saw differently?
That's the thing. We don't really know. We don't know what the background is, we don't know if there was any intent to be racist in the portrayal of these events. But if we don't question it, do we not run the risk of simply internalising the belief that light-skinned people steal out of necessity, and dark-skinned people do so out of other, less noble motives?
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 17:30
I don't know what humans you know, but the "Humans in general" I know act heroic and selflessly when terrified and in mortal danger. If you wanna generalize all humans as cowardly scumbags under pressure, do so in a less general manner.
You are reading that connotation into what Kat said. Selfish != cowardly and scumbaggish. Selfish in this case could mean stealing food not only for yourself, but for others...the selfishness comes in when you are willing to supercede your moral mores about stealing in favour of survival.
Jjimjja
31-08-2005, 17:32
That's the thing. We don't really know. We don't know what the background is, we don't know if there was any intent to be racist in the portrayal of these events. But if we don't question it, do we not run the risk of simply internalising the belief that light-skinned people steal out of necessity, and dark-skinned people do so out of other, less noble motives?

But as TEK pointed out. The photos are from 2 separate agencies. So a big part is probably due to how they interpret the events of people taking/looting products.

had both photos been from the same agency then of course the appearance of racism would seem more likely
Darksbania
31-08-2005, 17:34
Actually it looks like the pictures are credited to different people.

Perhaps Picture 1's captioner would view all such food-liberating people as surviving, and picture 2's captioner would view them all as looters?

Perhaps the colour of the subjects' skin is incidental. Unless you know both pictures are captioned by the same person you can't really pass judgement. You just don't know.
I was going to post the exact same thing. Two different people, two different viewpoints as to what constitutes "looting". No racism needed.
Katganistan
31-08-2005, 17:34
Anyone who fights for something easily replaced is a fool.

Someone who fights for something not easily replaced-an innocent life-should be praised.

Just my 2 cents.

I find myself in agreement here.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 17:35
Maybe everyone's time could be better used making an effort to help, rather than trying to micro analyse photos and innuendos. Yes, well Carn, you really say the same thing about any debate we have..."shut up and do something", as though the conversation is somehow an indication that those involved in it are doing nothing. Don't assume. You have no idea whether or not people in this thread are 'making an effort to help' and this discussion in no way impedes any such attempts.

Blacks and whites arent fighting each other down there, as far as I can tell. They are all in the shit together and I've seen many instances of people of varying colors helping other people of varying colors.

And people discussing things in here leads to what? More arguments, no solutions and usually near world record evidence of stupidty. Sorry- there is little or no importance in the real world as to how people, thousands of miles away, feel about a caption on a photo. No importance in the real world? Really. How interesting that you would dismiss people's perceptions as inconsequential, considering that those perceptions affect everything from what kind of products they buy to the candidates they support in office. Calling this perception into question brings up the issues that are ALREADY being discussed, in the news, in cafes, in living rooms. Are certain people, because of their race, reacting to this disaster in a particular way, or is that just the media spin? Are humans at their core the same? Do we react to disaster in the same way? Do people view our reactions in the same way.

You might not think this kind of conversation has any importance, but I have to disagree. So let's agree to disagree and let the conversation continue. One of us can always choose to not participate.

Start a thread about how people can help, rather than how they percieve others to hate. its a non-story-dont let it get to be one. Just discussing this stupidity is making racisim-that really isnt there as of now-somehow valid.
Right now, people are just trying to live. What are you trying to do?
Maybe you can answer that question first. Seems to me you're spending a lot of time trying to tell people what to discuss...perhaps less time on NS would be appropriate?

Hmmm...that sounded rather self-righteous, indignant, and bossy, didn't it? Yeah, I take it back. Discuss whatever you like. Don't lambast others for what they choose to discuss.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 17:37
But as TEK pointed out. The photos are from 2 separate agencies. So a big part is probably due to how they interpret the events of people taking/looting products.
Yeah, that's been discussed. And I agree. Not the angle I'm looking at it from anyway.

had both photos been from the same agency then of course the appearance of racism would seem more likely
The appreance of racism remains regardless. The intent may not. That's the difference. Not everyone is going to take the time to say, 'hey, two different news agencies...maybe the black boy isn't a thief after all....' It's about the reaction to, not the intent of. (in my little mind)
Neaness
31-08-2005, 17:39
What I find amusing is that they both took pop (soda) and the people in the first photo took white bread. Cuz we all know that pop and white bread are TOTALLY nutritious and full of healthy vitamins.

Also, I think it needs to be reiterated that the boy in the second photo couldn't possibly have much in the garbage bag, or else it WOULD BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO THE WATER and NOT VISIBLE IN THE PHOTO! So I highly doubt it's 'full of unnecessary items.'

Speculate all you want, but we don't know what's in the backpacks or what (if anything) is in the garbage bag. The captions are interesting, but a bit of a non-issue in light of the fact that people are DYING. Shouldn't our efforts be focused on helping (fundraising, prayers if you believe in that, etc.) rather than nitpicking?
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 17:56
Oh is that so. Well guess what: 100,000 people couldn't leave before the storm hit and were subsequently left behind, abandoned by the very authorities who you claim would now only help them if they asked nicely enough. And the city's planned superdome refuge is part of the disaster area. So what makes you think the state of Louisiana is even capable of feeding these people, much less willing to?
I don't know. But the rule of law is so precious, it must never be trumped.
Peechland
31-08-2005, 17:58
As far as the 2 different reporting agencies go, yes that may be totally different viewpoints from totally different people, but if youre going to publish them and put them on a web based news source, then they should have noticed that the difference in reporting views could be perceived as racism. They pay editors and PR people a lot of money to catch things just like this. When people read the news, they focus on the news. They dont research who said what while theyre having their morning coffee.We are only disecting the facts because we are debating the issue and how it was presented to us with the photos.
Sick Dreams
31-08-2005, 17:59
You are reading that connotation into what Kat said. Selfish != cowardly and scumbaggish. Selfish in this case could mean stealing food not only for yourself, but for others...the selfishness comes in when you are willing to supercede your moral mores about stealing in favour of survival.
No, selfish means doing only for yourself. Thats the definition. If someone is getting food to bring back to familys, thats not selfish at all. If someone uses their time to steal jewelry and electronics, thats selfish. But MOST people aren't doing that. Its what you see on the news because it sells.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 17:59
Incarcerate them in a guarded tent, or something, then. Execution without trial is a breach of human rights no matter the circumstances - especially for something such as theft.
Looting is also a breech of human rights, being the right to property. In fact, shooting may be too humane. They'd fair much worse in some guarded tent.
Carnivorous Lickers
31-08-2005, 18:00
Maybe you can answer that question first. Seems to me you're spending a lot of time trying to tell people what to discuss...perhaps less time on NS would be appropriate?

Hmmm...that sounded rather self-righteous, indignant, and bossy, didn't it? Yeah, I take it back. Discuss whatever you like. Don't lambast others for what they choose to discuss.


My efforts to contibute started yesterday-on several levels and will continue. And I'm on NS while I'm working-as you are.

I'm not trying to tell people what to discuss- just pointing out that, not only is it useless, its adding to the problem, not helping solve it.

Self righteous, indignant etc...? Your words, but you know what you're talking about. I'm used to it by now. Dont pretend you take it back though, Thats what the "edit" options are for.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 18:00
I don't know. But the rule of law is so precious, it must never be trumped.
Are you kidding?
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 18:02
No, selfish means doing only for yourself. Thats the definition. If someone is getting food to bring back to familys, thats not selfish at all. If someone uses their time to steal jewelry and electronics, thats selfish. But MOST people aren't doing that. Its what you see on the news because it sells.Whatever. You are assigning a meaning to Kat's post, and I'll let her worry about validating or disagreeing with that meaning.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 18:03
Are you kidding?
No, I am not. We are in a state of rebellion in New Orleans. The US Constitution calls for the suspension of the writ of habeas corpus in times of invasion and rebellion.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 18:04
My efforts to contibute started yesterday-on several levels and will continue. And I'm on NS while I'm working-as you are.
Good for you. It's a bit arrogant to even ask you to justify yourself, isn't it? So maybe you don't need to ask others to on this particular thread.

I'm not trying to tell people what to discuss- just pointing out that, not only is it useless, its adding to the problem, not helping solve it. How do you think it's adding to the problem?

Self righteous, indignant etc...? Your words, but you know what you're talking about. I'm used to it by now. Dont pretend you take it back though, Thats what the "edit" options are for.
Why would I take it back? Talking about this does not automatically mean people are trying to make things worse, or don't care, or are just lazy bastards sitting around enjoying the spectacle of other people suffering. But you, and others, seem to think it important to tell others to stop yapping and do something...as though the two are mutally exculsive. They aren't.

And I guess you missed the irony.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 18:05
No, I am not. We are in a state of rebellion in New Orleans. The US Constitution calls for the suspension of the writ of habeas corpus in times of invasion and rebellion.
Rebellion...that's an interesting definition of the situation...
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 18:07
Rebellion...that's an interesting definition of the situation...
The oppritunism that these looters and price gougers show is a rebellion against the rule of law. The looting would be an utter non-issue if there was actually a strong police force.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 18:09
The oppritunism that these looters and price gougers show is a rebellion against the rule of law. The looting would be an utter non-issue if there was actually a strong police force.
In boats. Definately in boats.
Peechland
31-08-2005, 18:10
The oppritunism that these looters and price gougers show is a rebellion against the rule of law. The looting would be an utter non-issue if there was actually a strong police force.

yeah, i can just see the local deputy swimming across the streets trying to apprehend someone with a 12 pack of pepsi. :rolleyes:
[NS]Antre_Travarious
31-08-2005, 18:11
Wether they are looting from individuals, or from corporations, or form mom and pop stores, it is still a crime. And if you are too busy commiting crimes to evacuate yourself and care for others in need, you are obviously of a callous and criminal mind, and perhaps should beflushed out of the gene pool.
Neaness
31-08-2005, 18:11
The oppritunism that these looters and price gougers show is a rebellion against the rule of law. The looting would be an utter non-issue if there was actually a strong police force.

And where do you propose people get their food if they can't loot? Soon, it will be a health hazard for aid workers to bring in food and clean water.
Jah Bootie
31-08-2005, 18:12
I will say this. If you lived in New Orleans, everything you have is probably gone. You're basically starting over from scratch. You need to get out of town and a place to stay, which means you need money. If I had to steal some IPods from a flooded out store to get the cash I needed, I would do it and not think twice and never feel guilty about it. I think that most of you who are feeling very superior and moral about the situation would do the same. And how anyone could compare this to the lights going out for a few days is beyond me. These people may not be able return to their homes for months. I'm going to give them a pass on this one.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 18:12
In boats. Definately in boats.
A few are still around, but not many. Besides, they are far too busy with search and rescue to guard anything, or make patrols. The Coast Guard and several Natl. Guardsmen are there, but I feel that their numbers are too thin for a city that size. I'd like to see an army battalion in there. They probably will come sooner or later, as the Army Corp of Engineers is there.
Neaness
31-08-2005, 18:13
Antre_Travarious']Wether they are looting from individuals, or from corporations, or form mom and pop stores, it is still a crime. And if you are too busy commiting crimes to evacuate yourself and care for others in need, you are obviously of a callous and criminal mind, and perhaps should beflushed out of the gene pool.

Hypothetical situation: Someone's living in New Orleans. They have no money, no car, no credit cards. Boatload after boatload of people is going past their house with no room for them. Is this person of a callous and criminal mind? And the looters who are only taking food for survival? They're callous and criminal for wanting to live just that much longer?
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 18:14
I will say this. If you lived in New Orleans, everything you have is probably gone. You're basically starting over from scratch. You need to get out of town and a place to stay, which means you need money. If I had to steal some IPods from a flooded out store to get the cash I needed, I would do it and not think twice and never feel guilty about it. I think that most of you who are feeling very superior and moral about the situation would do the same. And how anyone could compare this to the lights going out for a few days is beyond me. These people may not be able return to their homes for months. I'm going to give them a pass on this one.
True...and for those who think the insurance companies are going to make everything better...don't forget that we're talking claims on a scale that can not possibly be settled or dealt with in a timely manner, and plenty of folks who likely have no insurance at all. This is going to be a mess for a long, long time, and no amount of aid or intervention is going to reach everyone in time.
Carnivorous Lickers
31-08-2005, 18:14
Good for you. It's a bit arrogant to even ask you to justify yourself, isn't it? So maybe you don't need to ask others to on this particular thread.

How do you think it's adding to the problem?


Why would I take it back? Talking about this does not automatically mean people are trying to make things worse, or don't care, or are just lazy bastards sitting around enjoying the spectacle of other people suffering. But you, and others, seem to think it important to tell others to stop yapping and do something...as though the two are mutally exculsive. They aren't.

And I guess you missed the irony.

I hadnt asked anyone to justify themselves, Sin.

Its adding to the problem by comparing various photos and thier captions and finding racism there. Speculating that its deliberate. There is no racism for the flocks of victims down there-only food, clean water and shelter til God knows when. Racism isnt an issue to them right now because its all the same for them-just like shit.

No-I didnt miss your irony or sarcasm. Forgive me for not admiring your pretentious high horse.
[NS]Antre_Travarious
31-08-2005, 18:14
I will say this. If you lived in New Orleans, everything you have is probably gone. You're basically starting over from scratch. You need to get out of town and a place to stay, which means you need money. If I had to steal some IPods from a flooded out store to get the cash I needed, I would do it and not think twice and never feel guilty about it. I think that most of you who are feeling very superior and moral about the situation would do the same. Just because you are quick to abandon all morality to steal dosn't mean everyone else here is. Perhaps you will feel no guilt over depriving someone else of their property to relieve your financial burden, but not everyone else around here would choose the easy wrong over the hard right.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 18:15
And where do you propose people get their food if they can't loot? Soon, it will be a health hazard for aid workers to bring in food and clean water.
I may take a softer tone on this whole issue had Gov. Kate Blanco not ordered the city to be completely evacuated. There are hundreds of buses going to the Superdome as we speak, and I am confident that they can evacuate other parts of the city. That makes looting even more repulsive to me: everyone has a way out!
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 18:15
A few are still around, but not many. Besides, they are far too busy with search and rescue to guard anything, or make patrols. The Coast Guard and several Natl. Guardsmen are there, but I feel that their numbers are too thin for a city that size. I'd like to see an army battalion in there. They probably will come sooner or later, as the Army Corp of Engineers is there.
I was kidding. As in, a strong police force is not the solution alone...no one could have prepared for this level of devestation. Right now, it's all about reaction. Clearly there are not enough boats to deal with rescues AND law and order...and clearly one is currently more important than the other at this point.
Neaness
31-08-2005, 18:17
Antre_Travarious']Just because you are quick to abandon all morality to steal dosn't mean everyone else here is. Perhaps you will feel no guilt over depriving someone else of their property to relieve your financial burden, but not everyone else around here would choose the easy wrong over the hard right.

Personally, I would rather go for the easy wrong and live than the hard right and die. Dunno, must be some silly self-preservation instinct or something. Although by the time it occured to me I could take something from the grocery store for when I ran out of food, all that'd be left would be, like, melted ice cream and soy milk. Maybe some pickles.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 18:17
I hadnt asked anyone to justify themselves, Sin.

Its adding to the problem by comparing various photos and thier captions and finding racism there. Speculating that its deliberate. There is no racism for the flocks of victims down there-only food, clean water and shelter til God knows when. Racism isnt an issue to them right now because its all the same for them-just like shit.

No-I didnt miss your irony or sarcasm. Forgive me for not admiring your pretentious high horse.
Ditto.

And no one said the issue for the people there is racism. Fass noted a discrepency in how things are being reported. Intentional or not, the discrepency exists, and is likely to affect the way people far from the scene are going to view the events taking place there. Talking about them is just as valid as anything else. Personally, I get a bit annoyed when people jump in and suggest that we are somehow making things worse by talking like this. So if that's coming across in my posts, maybe you can understand why.
Stephistan
31-08-2005, 18:19
If they're looting to get food and water and clean dry clothes, shoes I say all the power to them! You'd do the same damn thing in their position. If they're looting 42" plasma TV's, then they're morons..
Neaness
31-08-2005, 18:20
I may take a softer tone on this whole issue had Gov. Kate Blanco not ordered the city to be completely evacuated. There are hundreds of buses going to the Superdome as we speak, and I am confident that they can evacuate other parts of the city. That makes looting even more repulsive to me: everyone has a way out!

As we speak. Which means that they aren't there yet. Which means that there are plenty of people still trapped there. You gotta do what you gotta do to survive, right? It's gonna be a while before they can get all 100,000 people out of there. After that, if people decide to come back and loot, I'll be on your side. Until the city is declared completely evacuated, though, I'm inclined to side with those who want to feed themselves.
Peechland
31-08-2005, 18:20
I may take a softer tone on this whole issue had Gov. Kate Blanco not ordered the city to be completely evacuated. There are hundreds of buses going to the Superdome as we speak, and I am confident that they can evacuate other parts of the city. That makes looting even more repulsive to me: everyone has a way out!

Well lets see, while these people are waiting on their ship to come in, or bus, what are they supposed to do? Float around on door for hours or days with nothing to eat? Like I said before, its very easy for people to say 'they should have done this" or "they shouldnt do that'', but we arent in their shoes now are we? What if you had children and were sitting on top of a house waiting for someone to come help you? There are endless scenarios that we probably can't even imagine. These people are living minute to minute.....they dont know what to do. They just want to survive.
Jah Bootie
31-08-2005, 18:22
Antre_Travarious']Just because you are quick to abandon all morality to steal dosn't mean everyone else here is. Perhaps you will feel no guilt over depriving someone else of their property to relieve your financial burden, but not everyone else around here would choose the easy wrong over the hard right.
Well, you must be very proud of yourself. You have muffled your instinct to protect your self for the noble cause of protecting the institution of private property to the ends of the Earth.

Oh, no, wait. You just said you would. That's a little easier than doing it isn't it?
Carnivorous Lickers
31-08-2005, 18:26
Ditto.

And no one said the issue for the people there is racism. Fass noted a discrepency in how things are being reported. Intentional or not, the discrepency exists, and is likely to affect the way people far from the scene are going to view the events taking place there. Talking about them is just as valid as anything else. Personally, I get a bit annoyed when people jump in and suggest that we are somehow making things worse by talking like this. So if that's coming across in my posts, maybe you can understand why.

Well-as usual,a thread,followed closely by you, annoyed me.

Maybe you'll understand.

You get so much more opinionated as this weekend draws closer. Is relief in sight?
Free Soviets
31-08-2005, 18:31
But seriously

You're entire city is going to get obliterated, and wtf do you do?

Go a loot a Walmart...

The idiocy speaks for itself, and we should euthanize idiots to put us out of our misery (jk).

looting walmart is a good thing under normal situations. though it should probably be handled in an orderly fashion during emergency situations to prevent conflicts and hording.
Free Soviets
31-08-2005, 18:33
From a single mother of 3! Who works TWO jobs!

why would someone bother looting from individuals when the stores have lots of stuff (relatively) neatly organized? that would be hard work with little payoff.
Spinal Meningitis
31-08-2005, 18:42
Then he should have said that. (And calling looters "violent criminals" is seriosuly stretching the definition.)
Actually, one NOPD officer was shot in the head yesterday by a looter, so guess what...I think they ARE violent.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 18:44
Well-as usual,a thread,followed closely by you, annoyed me.

Maybe you'll understand. Don't worry...I'm quite aware that my opinions on anything but sex annoy the hell out of you...but c'est la vie. Neither of us are likely to change on this point.

You get so much more opinionated as this weekend draws closer. Is relief in sight?
You could always put me on ignore hon, then relief would be immediate and no doubt, gratifying.

You have the power...
Nadkor
31-08-2005, 18:47
And it hasn't occurred to you that alot of the looters might be looting food to survive?
Dempublicents1
31-08-2005, 18:47
If any retail employees stayed behind to defend their beloved, water damaged wares, and were injured or killed by the looters I will concede the point.

What about store owners?

People who own their own stores very often stay behind, usually armed, to protect their stores. Some of them were back in their stores within an hour of Katrina moving out of their area. And you think looters have never beaten shop owners to within an inch of their life? Someone seems to have forgotten the LA riots, as well as other such situations throughout history.
Dempublicents1
31-08-2005, 18:48
And it hasn't occurred to you that alot of the looters might be looting food to survive?

Some are - and no one really has a problem with that (at least no one that I know of). From what I've heard, they are ignoring people who loot a grocery store or something like that. It is the people looting jewelry/electronics/etc. stores that they are stopping.
Psychotic Military
31-08-2005, 18:53
Id say send in a rogue death squad in there to all those looters, there just a waste of time effort and money, its obvious that out of one mans misery they are trying to gain some advantage, so i guess if i was in charge i id be inclined to issue a state of evacuation and proceed using a full nuclear stike id guess that would get the idiots out of there. :sniper:
The Nazz
31-08-2005, 19:17
Some are - and no one really has a problem with that (at least no one that I know of). From what I've heard, they are ignoring people who loot a grocery store or something like that. It is the people looting jewelry/electronics/etc. stores that they are stopping.
I still find myself not caring about that sort of looting either. Here's why--the damage in New Orleans is so extensive that it's literally going to be weeks before it's livable again, and that's assuming that nothing goes wrong. We're still deep in the middle of hurricane season, and it wouldn't be unusual for the area to take another hit, even a glancing one.

So some idiot takes a plasma screen tv--right now the Governor is mandating a complete evacuation because there's no drinkable water, there's no food coming in, and there's no telling when those supplies will be back. Toss in that there are uncountable numbers of dead bodies, human and animal, and you have a recipe for plague if you try to stay around and protect your loot. Think that the government is going to let you take that looted plasma screen tv on the bus to Houston? Me either.

So the looters of non-food items have two choices: leave it behind, where it'll disappear or get destroyed in the rebuilding process, or stay behind with it and die of disease. What have they gained either way?
Carnivorous Lickers
31-08-2005, 19:18
You could always put me on ignore hon, then relief would be immediate and no doubt, gratifying.

You have the power...


Thats not what I meant. But there is no way for you to get my joke without me saying something you'd take personally. And I'm not here for that.

Social/politcal opinions aside- I still like you and think you're great. I dont take what you say persoanlly and I hope you dont take mine that way either. Even if I joke about your horse.
Peechland
31-08-2005, 19:22
For those of you who wish to hang,shoot,and castrate the looters, keep in mind, you arent in their shoes. This is an uncertain situation and not everyone is going to be rescued. More people might die. It's easy to say what you would or would not do by simply looking in from afar....but what if you and your family almost lost your lives and were sitting up in a tree waiting to be rescued. Could be days before some are even reached.
Jocabia
31-08-2005, 19:26
Just a little Devil's Advocate here:

How do you know the captions aren't accurrate? It's possible to "find" food in the aftermath of a hurricane, just by walking down the street. Hurricane blows the front of a store away, wind and water come, sweep out the contents of the store and deposit food items all across the streets. There's honestly no way of telling what food came from what store, and it's all going to start rotting anyway.

You have no way of knowing if the photographer witnessed how these people got what they took, if the white couple found a loaf of bread hanging off a windowsill or something. There's a difference between picking up what's lying in a gutter and breaking into a store to take food.

Reread the caption. It says they were 'finding bread and soda from a local grocery store'.

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ts/080304tropicalweathe/im:/050830/photos_ts_afp/050830192654_pfjuxrjq_photo1;_ylt=AlnCqGjKpTXcxVfu0YkazhBiWscF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3dmhrOGVvBHNlYwNzc20-

Want more examples:

This woman is just wading through water, but according the caption she's on her way to loot:

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ts/080304tropicalweathe/im:/050830/480/ladm11608301734;_ylt=AlV5YqAV4MLhQ5v31Y5woyRiWscF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3dmhrOGVvBHNlYwNzc20-

Here's more, all black and ALL on the way to the grocery store:

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ts/080304tropicalweathe/im:/050830/480/ladm10808301717;_ylt=AtZ4DQpPG77VhkO3g.gENh9iWscF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3dmhrOGVvBHNlYwNzc20-

Here's one of more white people and, oh, look, this time it's 'supplies' even the beer that they have:

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ts/080304tropicalweathe/im:/050831/ids_photos_ts/r2605159732.jpg

It's about survival. All of them are just trying to survive and people are labeling them as animals and criminals. It's sad and sickening.
Jocabia
31-08-2005, 19:31
Well lets see, while these people are waiting on their ship to come in, or bus, what are they supposed to do? Float around on door for hours or days with nothing to eat? Like I said before, its very easy for people to say 'they should have done this" or "they shouldnt do that'', but we arent in their shoes now are we? What if you had children and were sitting on top of a house waiting for someone to come help you? There are endless scenarios that we probably can't even imagine. These people are living minute to minute.....they dont know what to do. They just want to survive.

"This just in - Man and his family starve to death while waiting for rescue workers to reach them. The odd thing was that they were right next to a grocery store filled with food that will go bad long before New Orleans is safe for the owners. A hasty note scrawled by the man said he refused to do something as evil as stealing food that was going to waste just so his wife and children could live"
[NS]Antre_Travarious
31-08-2005, 19:46
Theft is theft, and theft is crime. Those who so casually abandon thier morality at any time are not those who contribute to society.
Neaness
31-08-2005, 19:50
Actually, one NOPD officer was shot in the head yesterday by a looter, so guess what...I think they ARE violent.


One shooting means that all the looters are violent? Aren't there, like, 100,000 people there? And since 0.0001 of the population shoots someone, they're all violent? Doesn't it seem like a ridiculously low incidence of violent crime with that many people?

Also - the people taking the big TVs amuse me. There's no electricity and the water's gonna destroy it anyway. Maybe looting's a pastime, though, much as cards or board games are in a power outage?
Laenis
31-08-2005, 19:52
Lotus, is this all some elaborate joke or something? I really cannot believe that anyone with a degree of sanity would seriously suggest shooting people who are taking food and water that is going to go bad anyway to feed their family simply because "The rule of law is more important than human life"
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 19:53
Well lets see, while these people are waiting on their ship to come in, or bus, what are they supposed to do? Float around on door for hours or days with nothing to eat? Like I said before, its very easy for people to say 'they should have done this" or "they shouldnt do that'', but we arent in their shoes now are we? What if you had children and were sitting on top of a house waiting for someone to come help you? There are endless scenarios that we probably can't even imagine. These people are living minute to minute.....they dont know what to do. They just want to survive.
You're a little too subjective. Well anyhow, let me clarify my stance once and for all.
Even before Katrina, there was a debate about the balance between freedom and order. I find them complementary. Order begets freedom. Without order, there is complete freedom, including freedom to rule by fiat. In the US, as well as in many countries, a democratic order exists, one that is dependent on law enforcement. When that collapses, extreme measures need to restore order. Only be restoring order can freedom be obtained. These looters may be exercising "freedom", but it is certainly not the freedom of owning property that they exercise. They are destroying it. They, therefore, are the forces of anti-freedom, and are rebelling against order.
Neaness
31-08-2005, 19:54
Antre_Travarious']Theft is theft, and theft is crime. Those who so casually abandon thier morality at any time are not those who contribute to society.


And when survival comes into play, what then?
CthulhuFhtagn
31-08-2005, 19:56
Actually, one NOPD officer was shot in the head yesterday by a looter, so guess what...I think they ARE violent.
The crime there is murder. We all know murder is a violent crime. Theft is not.
Jocabia
31-08-2005, 19:57
You're a little too subjective. Well anyhow, let me clarify my stance once and for all.
Even before Katrina, there was a debate about the balance between freedom and order. I find them complementary. Order begets freedom. Without order, there is complete freedom, including freedom to rule by fiat. In the US, as well as in many countries, a democratic order exists, one that is dependent on law enforcement. When that collapses, extreme measures need to restore order. Only be restoring order can freedom be obtained. These looters may be exercising "freedom", but it is certainly not the freedom of owning property that they exercise. They are destroying it. They, therefore, are the forces of anti-freedom, and are rebelling against order.

It appears Nature rebelled against order. The order of the town. The order of the leevies. The order of the boundaries of the lake and ocean. Nature destroyed the order that allowed these people to survive and so now they must survive as nature intended, which is by hunting and gathering. When the order that allows them to survive through trade and law is restored so will their sense of abiding by that law. No drastic measure is necessary.
Neaness
31-08-2005, 20:00
-Snip-

Wouldn't, y'know, losing their home and all their posessions count as undue mental strain? You'd think when life and death were at stake, it might be counted as extenuating circumstances in which possession of property takes a backseat.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 20:22
Social/politcal opinions aside- I still like you and think you're great. I dont take what you say persoanlly and I hope you dont take mine that way either. Even if I joke about your horse.
We're cool. And the horse thing...is that because I like bareback riding? Hmmm....
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 20:22
It appears Nature rebelled against order. The order of the town. The order of the leevies. The order of the boundaries of the lake and ocean. Nature destroyed the order that allowed these people to survive and so now they must survive as nature intended, which is by hunting and gathering. When the order that allows them to survive through trade and law is restored so will their sense of abiding by that law. No drastic measure is necessary.
Nature is not a person. People are.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 20:24
Wouldn't, y'know, losing their home and all their posessions count as undue mental strain? You'd think when life and death were at stake, it might be counted as extenuating circumstances in which possession of property takes a backseat.
Not at all. The preservation of order must top all other priorities. The looters and price gougers can easily make less of a collapse of order. They should just stay away from stores, and signal for help. The Coast Guard is everywhere in New Orleans. And I'm glad to say that the majority of people are doing exactly that.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 20:24
Reread the caption. It says they were 'finding bread and soda from a local grocery store'.

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ts/080304tropicalweathe/im:/050830/photos_ts_afp/050830192654_pfjuxrjq_photo1;_ylt=AlnCqGjKpTXcxVfu0YkazhBiWscF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3dmhrOGVvBHNlYwNzc20-

Want more examples:

This woman is just wading through water, but according the caption she's on her way to loot:

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ts/080304tropicalweathe/im:/050830/480/ladm11608301734;_ylt=AlV5YqAV4MLhQ5v31Y5woyRiWscF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3dmhrOGVvBHNlYwNzc20-

Here's more, all black and ALL on the way to the grocery store:

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ts/080304tropicalweathe/im:/050830/480/ladm10808301717;_ylt=AtZ4DQpPG77VhkO3g.gENh9iWscF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3dmhrOGVvBHNlYwNzc20-

Here's one of more white people and, oh, look, this time it's 'supplies' even the beer that they have:

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ts/080304tropicalweathe/im:/050831/ids_photos_ts/r2605159732.jpg

It's about survival. All of them are just trying to survive and people are labeling them as animals and criminals. It's sad and sickening.

Wow.

Again...I think they are ALL justified in trying to get food and water (or whatever liquid they can find). But it is kind of sad that one group is being called criminal, while the other is seen in a more sympathetic (and realistic) light.

Are there still people who don't think colour has anything to do with these labels?
Neaness
31-08-2005, 20:39
Are there still people who don't think colour has anything to do with these labels?


I'm going through the pictures, hoping to find a few that disprove the example presented so far. Gotta fight for the underdog, or something.
Dempublicents1
31-08-2005, 20:42
For those of you who wish to hang,shoot,and castrate the looters, keep in mind, you arent in their shoes. This is an uncertain situation and not everyone is going to be rescued. More people might die. It's easy to say what you would or would not do by simply looking in from afar....but what if you and your family almost lost your lives and were sitting up in a tree waiting to be rescued. Could be days before some are even reached.

Yes, I'm sure that my reaction when I am uncertain, my family has lost their lives, and I'm sitting in a tree, the first thing I'm going to think is, "Now I can get that XBox! No one will be guarding the game store!"
Peechland
31-08-2005, 20:44
Not at all. The preservation of order must top all other priorities. The looters and price gougers can easily make less of a collapse of order. They should just stay away from stores, and signal for help. The Coast Guard is everywhere in New Orleans. And I'm glad to say that the majority of people are doing exactly that.

the preservation of order must exist...but it doesnt top the priority of trying to stay alive. if my 14 month old son needs milk or some sustanance to survive....to hell with order.
Peechland
31-08-2005, 20:46
Yes, I'm sure that my reaction when I am uncertain, my family has lost their lives, and I'm sitting in a tree, the first thing I'm going to think is, "Now I can get that XBox! No one will be guarding the game store!"


I'm sure you know I speak of food Dem, not XBoxes.
Neaness
31-08-2005, 20:47
Yes, I'm sure that my reaction when I am uncertain, my family has lost their lives, and I'm sitting in a tree, the first thing I'm going to think is, "Now I can get that XBox! No one will be guarding the game store!"


No, but it might be "I need to get food for my family, as all of mine has floated away along with my wallet. How am I either going to get food or money?"
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 20:49
the preservation of order must exist...but it doesnt top the priority of trying to stay alive. if my 14 month old son needs milk or some sustanance to survive....to hell with order.
Good for you. But you do know that consequences are everywhere. Life is full of consequences. Emotions don't change that.
Peechland
31-08-2005, 20:51
Good for you. But you do know that consequences are everywhere. Life is full of consequences. Emotions don't change that.

yeah I'm 31 and a mother of 2.....i think i'm aware of that thanks.
[NS]Antre_Travarious
31-08-2005, 20:53
And when survival comes into play, what then?
Well, I guess we just debase ourselves and start acting like the lowest animal that steals from each other.

Oh, wait, how many animals steal from each other.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 20:54
yeah I'm 31 and a mother of 2.....i think i'm aware of that thanks.
Your quite welcome. I am, however, shocked that a lady has revealed her age. You must be one of the few that doesn't care. But I guess there are other issues at hand than my little boyish shock.
Neaness
31-08-2005, 20:54
Some counterexamples:

A latino salvages (not steals) (http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ts/080304tropicalweathe/im:/050830/photos_ts_wl_afp/050830200307_ttbr0woh_photo2;_ylt=Agu6DQwf5v_9UZNwq2.zLGRiWscF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3dmhrOGVvBHNlYwNzc20-)


Various races make their way through the same flood waters where the other woman was off to loot (http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ts/080304tropicalweathe/im:/050830/480/ladm11408301709;_ylt=Agu6DQwf5v_9UZNwq2.zLGRiWscF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3dmhrOGVvBHNlYwNzc20-)


.... Okay, 599 pictures and only 2 very iffy counterexamples. There may be a point. However, of all the 'looting' and 'finding' pictures, there was only the one with white people and that was the only one with 'finding.' It's possible that ... I forget my point. Dammit.
CanuckHeaven
31-08-2005, 20:55
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#075195

America is built upon the idea that any individual can safely own property - when that right is threatened it is the job of the federal government to pwn some noobs. I think the national guard should be allowed to shoot looters. (ok, maybe just wing them, but you get the point)

your thoughts?
How do you "wing them" a with a "5.56mm to the chest"?

If America is built on the idea that you can shoot people for stealing, than she hasn't progressed very far as a civilization.

This is just sickness to advocate death to looters.
Sinuhue
31-08-2005, 20:55
I'm going through the pictures, hoping to find a few that disprove the example presented so far. Gotta fight for the underdog, or something.
Please let us know if you find any.

Hey Lotus. I'm 27. And I could care less if you know. Shocked? :rolleyes:
Peechland
31-08-2005, 20:57
Your quite welcome. I am, however, shocked that a lady has revealed her age. You must be one of the few that doesn't care. But I guess there are other issues at hand than my little boyish shock.


lol....31 is great. I'm just old enough that my car insurance has decreased in price, yet still young enough to play with my kids without breaking a hip.
Neaness
31-08-2005, 20:59
Antre_Travarious']Well, I guess we just debase ourselves and start acting like the lowest animal that steals from each other.

Oh, wait, how many animals steal from each other.


I dunno about stealing, but a lot of animals eat their own young for water and nutrients. Tell me when you hear of that happening in New Orleans.
Neaness
31-08-2005, 21:00
Your quite welcome. I am, however, shocked that a lady has revealed her age. You must be one of the few that doesn't care. But I guess there are other issues at hand than my little boyish shock.


Y'know, nowadays most women DON'T CARE if you know how old they are. I'm 18.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 21:02
lol....31 is great. I'm just old enough that my car insurance has decreased in price, yet still young enough to play with my kids without breaking a hip.
That's a good one. Yeah, car insurance is not cheap these days. But I degress.
Listen, I have nothing against you or your kids. I only have reason to hate those that I physically met :) . I'm just trying to be objective here. If everyone thought purely for himself, we'd have anarchy.
Peechland
31-08-2005, 21:04
I dunno about stealing, but a lot of animals eat their own young for water and nutrients. Tell me when you hear of that happening in New Orleans.


that was the reply of the day i think.*claps*
Peechland
31-08-2005, 21:10
That's a good one. Yeah, car insurance is not cheap these days. But I degress.
Listen, I have nothing against you or your kids. I only have reason to hate those that I physically met :) . I'm just trying to be objective here. If everyone thought purely for himself, we'd have anarchy.


And I can respect your opinion on maintaining order. I just think human survival is way more important than the loss of some material items. I know that I would take food, diapers, medicine, a raft if it so happened to be available from a sporting goods store. Life jackets ......I'd be wrong to steal, but I'm charged with taking care of my family first and foremost...if I would take a bullet for my child, why wouldnt I take a loaf of bread? Thats all I'm saying.

Definitely no hard feelings here :) ...I know it can get ugly quick when it comes to debate here. And I'm pretty sarcastic sometimes. But I feel strongly about my stance and I'd be taking whatever I needed to ensure my family's survival.
Chadoin
31-08-2005, 21:13
Some of the looting I understand, even though I don't condone it. I hear many are reverting to carjacking in order to try and get out. But stealing things like TVs, jewelry, and things like that is just not acceptable. Neither is price gouging. Any price gougers in the martial law areas should be shot, too.

How about the wholesale price of gas going up a dollar overnight, talk about price gouging. The new world order is not "wait and see" what damaged happened, find out the economic implacations and adjust. Instead, it's "jack up the price" in fear of the worst and then let the price gradually far back (maybe) when the real facts emerge.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 21:14
And I can respect your opinion on maintaining order. I just think human survival is way more important than the loss of some material items. I know that I would take food, diapers, medicine, a raft if it so happened to be available from a sporting goods store. Life jackets ......I'd be wrong to steal, but I'm charged with taking care of my family first and foremost...if I would take a bullet for my child, why wouldnt I take a loaf of bread? Thats all I'm saying.

Definitely no hard feelings here :) ...I know it can get ugly quick when it comes to debate here. And I'm pretty sarcastic sometimes. But I feel strongly about my stance and I'd be taking whatever I needed to ensure my family's survival.
And I also feel strongly on where I'm coming from.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 21:16
How about the wholesale price of gas going up a dollar overnight, talk about price gouging. The new world order is not "wait and see" what damaged happened, find out the economic implacations and adjust. Instead, it's "jack up the price" in fear of the worst and then let the price gradually far back (maybe) when the real facts emerge.
That's not price gouging. That's covering costs. Besides, you have money, a home, and (hopefully) a firm financial life. Besides, you weren't hit by disaster. Price gougers take advantage of need by jacking up prices to whatever they feel like, and not accepting a reasonable price.
Peechland
31-08-2005, 21:17
And I also feel strongly on where I'm coming from.


Well lets just hope that you and I dont end up in the aftermath of a hurricane, because I'd hate for you to apprehend(or try to) me for stealing food for my kids. If that never happens.....you and I should get along just fine.
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 21:20
Well lets just hope that you and I dont end up in the aftermath of a hurricane, because I'd hate for you to apprehend(or try to) me for stealing food for my kids. If that never happens.....you and I should get along just fine.
Okie dokey. It doesn't often happen, of course, but everything that happened in New Orleans was quite extraordinary. I think someone said a hurricane like this hits the city once every 500 years. So of course, consensus over what to do has no time at all to form.
Carnivorous Lickers
31-08-2005, 21:24
We're cool. And the horse thing...is that because I like bareback riding? Hmmm....


No-I wouldnt use that in a heated debate.

I was referring to a "high horse". That was then, though.

I havent watched any more coverage, I've had a little afternoon fun (kids are still away), and I've eaten, so I'm not dangerous anymore.
Chadoin
31-08-2005, 21:24
That's not price gouging. That's covering costs. Besides, you have money, a home, and (hopefully) a firm financial life. Besides, you weren't hit by disaster. Price gougers take advantage of need by jacking up prices to whatever they feel like, and not accepting a reasonable price.
Thank you for endorsing my summation. There is no idea of the cost, and the cost of energy has no relation to the financial disaster re: insurance. Are you going to tell me that no one entity will realize a windfall profit in all of this? My financial status has nothing to do with the fact those who are in the margins are effected and the "macro" scenario of energy is exactly a mirror of the "micro" reality of price gougers in the devestated area. :gundge:
Jocabia
31-08-2005, 21:25
Nature is not a person. People are.

Oh, really? :rolleyes:

Can you point to the person who is responsible for these people needing to do what it takes to survive? No. That's because it's not a person. It's nature. If the leevy would have held or if the storm had been weaker they might just have to wait for the electricity to be turned back on, but as it is they weren't able to get out for whatever reason and their entire town is under water. There's been horrifying loss of life and that's only going to multiply as disease and such sets in. These people are in hell and you're suggesting they should be ashamed of wanting to eat. I promise you that were you in the same situation you would gladly steal to feed you and yours. You wouldn't apologize for it or make nice. You know why? Because it's not like you could pay for it if you liked, because there's no one to pay. You can say, "No, I wouldn't." But you've never been in that situation and that's only reason you say that. Because if you had been in that situation and you decided to die rather than steal, well we wouldn't be explaining it to you now, would we?
Peechland
31-08-2005, 21:25
And while we are sitting here debating whos right or wrong to take material things in the case of crisis.....there are bigger things at hand. People cant even find their family members... :(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4197200.stm
Lotus Puppy
31-08-2005, 21:27
Oh, really? :rolleyes:

Can you point to the person who is responsible for these people needing to do what it takes to survive? No. That's because it's not a person. It's nature. If the leevy would have held or if the storm had been weaker they might just have to wait for the electricity to be turned back on, but as it is they weren't able to get out for whatever reason and their entire town is under water. There's been horrifying loss of life and that's only going to multiply as disease and such sets in. These people are in hell and you're suggesting they should be ashamed of wanting to eat. I promise you that were you in the same situation you would gladly steal to feed you and yours. You wouldn't apologize for it or make nice. You know why? Because it's not like you could pay for it if you liked, because there's no one to pay. You can say, "No, I wouldn't." But you've never been in that situation and that's only reason you say that. Because if you had been in that situation and you decided to die rather than steal, well we wouldn't be explaining it to you now, would we?
You may be right. Yet there are others like me that are not in disaster zones. Therefore, I will be shot.
Jocabia
31-08-2005, 21:28
I'm going through the pictures, hoping to find a few that disprove the example presented so far. Gotta fight for the underdog, or something.

I went through every picture. There isn't one single example of a white person in any of the 'looting' pictures. Not one. I found two examples of white people in pictures suggesting they were just doing what it takes to survive. I found black people in a couple of pictures where looting, finding supplies, etc. is not mentioned at all, but it's clear they are in fact taking food (so no description of the action at all). And I found one picture where a black person is floating on something with a garbage bag and the bag is called supplies, but there is no evidence that what's in the bag didn't come from their house, there's nothing to really say to that one. Basically, I checked that and I could find anything that disputes the theory.
Jocabia
31-08-2005, 21:34
Some counterexamples:

A latino salvages (not steals) (http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ts/080304tropicalweathe/im:/050830/photos_ts_wl_afp/050830200307_ttbr0woh_photo2;_ylt=Agu6DQwf5v_9UZNwq2.zLGRiWscF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3dmhrOGVvBHNlYwNzc20-)


Various races make their way through the same flood waters where the other woman was off to loot (http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ts/080304tropicalweathe/im:/050830/480/ladm11408301709;_ylt=Agu6DQwf5v_9UZNwq2.zLGRiWscF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3dmhrOGVvBHNlYwNzc20-)


.... Okay, 599 pictures and only 2 very iffy counterexamples. There may be a point. However, of all the 'looting' and 'finding' pictures, there was only the one with white people and that was the only one with 'finding.' It's possible that ... I forget my point. Dammit.

The second one is not really an example. The caption that said the woman was off to loot was so absolutely ridiculous that not saying anything about people who are NOT doing anything might seem like a counter example, but it really doesn't apply.

I'll admit I didn't notice the latino/car example. I looked mostly for ones with people in water. I have to say 'scavenging' is still a bit more insulting than 'finding.
Jocabia
31-08-2005, 21:38
That's a good one. Yeah, car insurance is not cheap these days. But I degress.
Listen, I have nothing against you or your kids. I only have reason to hate those that I physically met :) . I'm just trying to be objective here. If everyone thought purely for himself, we'd have anarchy.

Again you make assumptions. Many of the people who are down there have saved relatives, neighbors, strangers, etc. They have helped these people to survive until rescue workers can evacuate them. Part of that survival may include and likely will include finding and collecting whatever supplies are necessary to maintain life. That is all these people are doing. In fact, the only person here who I find is not thinking of anyone else is YOU.
Myrmidonisia
31-08-2005, 22:02
Is there any form of life lower than someone who would try to take advantage of those already reeling from the Katrina disaster in New Orleans? Downtown New Orleans has taken on the appearance of a war zone. While so many people in New Orleans are working so hard in rescue operations, trying to help their neighbors, it seems that just as many have decided that it's time to let their baser instincts take over ... time to loot. Time to loot not only grocery stores ... but jewelry stores, appliance stores, clothing stores, and their neighbors homes.

Yesterday many newspapers carried a quote from some fool (http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/nation/12520176.htm) named Mike Franklin. As this Franklin character stood on the trolley tracks in downtown New Orleans watching the looting he told a reporter: "To be honest with you, people who are oppressed all their lives, man, it's an opportunity to get back at society,"

Isn't is always so? People become lawless and start preying on their fellow man, and someone comes along and excuses their behavior because they've been "oppressed."

Rant alert.

These people haven't been oppressed by society. If anything has oppressed these criminals it is their own culture; a culture that eschews education and hard work, and a culture that tolerates, if not encourages, predatory violence. These people actually don't see anything wrong with what they are doing. They believe themselves to be entitled.

Here's a _good_ example of where zero-tolerance is appropriate. Police and National Guard troops should use the weapons they have to discourage looters and shoot the ones that refuse to stop. People have been victimized enough by this terrible disaster. Their grief does not have to be amplified by the actions of their lawless neighbors.

If the police tolerate the looting, it is a signal to the predators that their lawlessness will be tolerated .. .and it will expand. I saw one person tell CNN, "If it was wrong the police would be out there stopping it." Amazing, isn't it. This dreadlocked goon seems to believe that any behavior the police don't immediately halt is somehow OK!

We should have learned this lesson in Baghdad. Immediately after Saddam was toppled the looting began. The coalition forces did little, and the violence continued to this day. Many think that if the liberating forces had taken out a few looting teams the history of the last few years might have been quite a bit different.
Myballsarehuge
31-08-2005, 22:05
Some of the looting is of stores etc this is to have something yto eat, and the stores are not open anyways...
You like shooting ppl dont ya
Chellis
31-08-2005, 22:06
I agree with shooting looters, but that would have had no real effect in iraq, and your claim was the first of its kind i've seen.
Airlandia
31-08-2005, 22:11
Before some of us feel *too* sorry for the looters perhaps it would be wise to take a look at this:

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/003439.htm

When they get to the point that they are a threat to children they deserve to be put down.
Starry Ones
31-08-2005, 22:17
Well from the news I've heard - and I watch quite a bit of it - one cop has been shot in the head, no looters have been shot. The cop will live, but after extensive care and will most likely never be the same.

I have heard that most of the looters are carrying guns, not all, but quite a few. The cops, while carrying BIG guns, have been told not to shoot unless their lives are in danger.

There are people out there trying to get food for their families.
There are also quite a few trying to get anything they can.
There was one guy walking around with a large rolling trash can full of alochol bottles. The cops took that away.
Pharmicies are emptied, I guess the serious druggies will overdose & be counted as one of the dead.

When they are evacuated, they can't take it with them, so what's the point of taking 10 large TV's?
Ashmoria
31-08-2005, 22:17
no you cant shoot people for stealing stuff

stealing is not a death penalty offense

im not particularily fond of looters but, except for jewelry and small electronics, i dont see how they are going to KEEP anything they steal. they have to evacuate the city and i dont see the authorities letting anyone get on the bus with a brand new tv.

those stores are already a total loss. their inventories will be covered by insurance up to the limits of their coverage. even if no one took anything that didnt belong to them, the inventory would be a loss after a few months of the city being shut down

if things start getting violent then more drastic measures will be needed to keep the city under control. but thats a different story.
Geecka
31-08-2005, 22:18
Looting is also a breech of human rights, being the right to property. In fact, shooting may be too humane. They'd fair much worse in some guarded tent.

Doesn't the right to life trump the right to property?

(I guess we know who functions as a strict 3 in Kohlberg's Stages.)
Myrmidonisia
31-08-2005, 22:21
I still don't understand why we should tolerate widespread theft after a natural disaster when it is completely wrong at any time.
Kaitonia
31-08-2005, 22:25
(I guess we know who functions as a strict 3 in Kohlberg's Stages.)

It's been awhile, but wouldn't it be stage 4?

I probably should look this up to make sure...
Geecka
31-08-2005, 22:26
everyone has a way out!

This is so naive, and literally not true. Many, many people had no way out before the storm hit and have no way out now. Should they sit around and starve while they wait for someone to find them? Or should they steal necessary items (food and drinking water) to strengthen them enough so that they can get to, say, the Superdome where they know they will find rescuers.

Don't forget, now they are mandatorily evacuating everyone. Including the Superdome and the downtown hotels which were originally set up as refugee camps. The "looters" can't possibly know this because they don't have power. They don't have access to televisions or radios. They don't know they're supposed to get out of the city, or that the situation is getting worse.

Certainly, the rescue workers are announcing on loudspeakers "Get out. Please show yourselves so we can help you. You need to leave." (Or something like it.) Unfortunately, the city is large and utterly destroyed. The rescue teams cannot move quickly, and certainly haven't reached all of the neighborhoods.

These people we're seeing pictures of literally don't know what's going on.
Geecka
31-08-2005, 22:26
It's been awhile, but wouldn't it be stage 4?

I probably should look this up to make sure...


I'm fairly sure that strict adherence to the law, even when it runs contrary to morals is Stage 3.

Edit: Nope, Kaitonia is right. It's Stage 4. Stage 3 is to do something because "I want to be NICE."