NationStates Jolt Archive

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002456680_sexoffender30m.html

From the Seattle Times:

BELLINGHAM — Last Friday night, a man claiming to be an FBI agent dropped in on three Level 3 sex offenders living together, supposedly to warn them of an Internet "hit list" targeting sex offenders.

The man was not an FBI agent, but he may have been enforcing a hit list of his own creation.

Two of the roommates were found dead early Saturday of gunshot wounds, and Bellingham police are investigating a crime that authorities say may be one of the nation's most serious cases of vigilantism aimed at sex offenders.

The killings also highlight a potential problem about Washington's 1990 law requiring sex offenders to register their addresses so the public can keep track of them.

Bellingham Police Chief Randall Carroll said it is too early to conclude that Hank Eisses, 49, and Victor Vasquez, 68, were killed because they were sex offenders. Police released a sketch of the suspect, who is still at large.

But Carroll noted that their address — and descriptions of their crimes — were posted on the city's Web site, and if someone used that information to target Eisses and Vasquez, it could have a broad impact.

"Certainly if sex offenders were targeted and attacked because of their offense, the Legislature could decide they could repeal our sex-offender notification law," Carroll said.

Eisses owned the house where the killings took place, and had rented rooms for the past three years to Vasquez and James Russell, 42.

Russell was there the night the suspect showed up, but he soon left to go to work. When he returned about 3 a.m., he told police, he found his roommates dead. Based on their estimated time of death, and the fact that Russell was at work, he is not considered a suspect, according to police. Results of an autopsy are expected later this week, Carroll said.

Vasquez was convicted in 1991 of molesting several relatives. According to court documents, his victims endured regular abuse, sexual and otherwise. He was on Department of Corrections supervision at the time of the murder.

Russell was convicted in 1994 of molesting a 3-year-old girl, and released from DOC supervision about three weeks ago after serving 5 ½ years in prison.

While the public is understandably concerned about sex crimes, Kit Bail, a DOC official, said the three men have been quiet, law-abiding offenders while living together. None of the three had violated supervision conditions, she said, and none had reoffended.

"In a sense, they are a success story," said Bail, the DOC's field supervisor for Whatcom County. "These guys were doing fine. They were employed. They were living according to the conditions."

The killings, she said, should "not be the basis on which we change the laws on registration, but if it is a vigilante act, it gives one pause. It gives me concern about other Level 3 sex offenders living responsibly — or even irresponsibly — in the community. Murder is not the response anywhere."

A fake FBI agent

Eisses was sentenced to 5 ½ years in prison in 1997 for raping a 13-year-old boy at his home in Sumas, near the Canadian border. He was released from DOC supervision about two years ago, Bail said.

He bought a blue house with a white picket fence in Bellingham's Columbia neighborhood — about a half-mile from a middle school — with the help of Theodore Kingma. In a brief interview, Kingma said he met Eisses at church. "He confessed his sins, and he lived right with God and the neighbors," said Kingma. "That's all I know."

It is unclear how Eisses met Russell and Vasquez. One of Russell's relatives said Russell's sex-offender status made it difficult to find a place to live until he moved in with Eisses.

According to police, Russell said a man wearing a blue jumpsuit and a hat with an FBI logo dropped by at about 9 p.m. on Friday to warn the trio of the alleged "hit list."

There were no FBI agents in the neighborhood that day, prompting the bureau to open an investigation of impersonation, said FBI spokeswoman Robbie Burroughs. The case does not qualify for federal hate-crime prosecution because the law does not appear to cover sex offenders, she said.

Too much information?

In response to a series of vicious sex crimes against children, Washington became the first state to require sex offenders to register their address upon release from prison. Level 3 offenders like Eisses, Vasquez and Russell, considered the most likely to commit a new crime, must register for life.

Since then, most states and the federal government have passed similar mandatory-notification laws.

A searchable, statewide database maintained by the Washington Association of Sheriffs and Police Chiefs provides block-specific addresses for Level 2 and 3 offenders. Other municipalities — including Bellingham — go further by giving exact addresses.

That information has led some to take the law into their own hands. In 1993, Joseph Gallardo planned to move into his family's home in Lynnwood after serving about three years for the statutory rape of a 10-year-old girl.

The home was burned after neighbors heard of Gallardo's plan. He then planned to move to New Mexico but encountered fierce protests there. He returned to Lynnwood, where he still lives. He has not been convicted of another crime.

John La Fond, a lawyer who fought the notification law on behalf of the American Civil Liberties Union, said posting sex offenders' addresses "almost becomes a confession by the state that they cannot keep the society safe from harm, and invites society to take matters into its own hands."

In researching a 2005 book on notification laws, he found dozens of assaults and harassment against sex offenders. Eisses and Vasquez, he said, may be the first deaths.

Don Pierce, head of the police-chiefs association, said the case will renew the debate on publishing sex offenders' addresses.

"I think there are risks and this may prove to be an example of one of those risks," said Pierce. "I also think the public and Legislature have said there's a risk to the general public if they don't know with specificity where a sex offender lives."

Should sex offenders' addresses be posted for everyone to see? Should the punishments be increased? Should manditory chemical sterilization be performed on repeat offenders?

I believe that sex offenders should be put away for longer, have to tell neighbors about themselves, but not have to have their addresses on the internet. Repeat offenders should have manditory steralizations. Mind you these aren't perminent, but they remove sex drive which would help stop repeats. Statutory rape w/ full parental consent, should not be considered rape. People always hear about the huge amount of repeat sex offenders, but I heard a stat on the radio today from an analysis since 1994 that said only 5% of sex offenders commit anothers sex crime with-in 3 years , almost 50% commit another type of crime with-in 3 years, and nearly 70% of non-sex offenders commit another crime.

So what do you think?

i think that if there is good reason to know the addresses of sex offenders, and in some cases i think there is, then the actions of one vigilante shouldnt change that.

I think it's a totally forseeable consequence of listing the names of sex offenders. The only real solution is to lock offenders who molest or rape away for life, and to let police only know about sex offenders who were convicted of peeking into windows or watching kiddy porn when they're released.

I think it's a totally forseeable consequence of listing the names of sex offenders. The only real solution is to lock offenders who molest or rape away for life, and to let police only know about sex offenders who were convicted of peeking into windows or watching kiddy porn when they're released.
life? thats a little unusual, and maybe a little cruel. But I agree that these 5 year sentances are bullshit. 20 years is better.

Haha!

Gah... I remember when a British tabloid brought out a "Named shamed" series... Offenders and people with similar names or addresses or appearances got targeted...

I see no justice in this.

I think it's a totally forseeable consequence of listing the names of sex offenders. The only real solution is to lock offenders who molest or rape away for life, and to let police only know about sex offenders who were convicted of peeking into windows or watching kiddy porn when they're released.

Execute them or cut their balls.

Execute them or cut their balls.What if it turns out that someone was innocent... What do you do then if punishment has already occured? Give their balls back?

What if it turns out that someone was innocent... What do you do then if punishment has already occured? Give their balls back?

Yeah, that's a great gift...I wouldn't want to deliver that package.

But, if they are beyond a reasonable doubt repeat offenders and every other method has failed, I'd castrate them.

Yeah, that's a great gift...I wouldn't want to deliver that package.

But, if they are beyond a reasonable doubt repeat offenders and every other method has failed, I'd castrate them.

Cruel and unusual.

But you people still have the death penalty, so... :rolleyes:

Yeah, that's a great gift...I wouldn't want to deliver that package.

But, if they are beyond a reasonable doubt repeat offenders and every other method has failed, I'd castrate them.Problem is, many cases of child molestation are based solely on the testimony of the child. While I'm somewhat comfortable with sending someone to jail based on that, castration as a common punishment would be unthinkable. I'm afraid it would create a precedent if it was introduced at all. You can always release someone from jail. I don't really like permanent penalties...
Mustn't show how civilized we are by being brutal to those that aren't...

What if it turns out that someone was innocent... What do you do then if punishment has already occured? Give their balls back?
I wouldn't pay attention to that guy.

I wouldn't pay attention to that guy.Ignoring something won't make it go away...

Ignoring something won't make it go away...

It works wonders on the Internet, actually.

Problem is, many cases of child molestation are based solely on the testimony of the child. While I'm somewhat comfortable with sending someone to jail based on that, castration as a common punishment would be unthinkable. I'm afraid it would create a precedent if it was introduced at all. You can always release someone from jail. I don't really like permanent penalties...Mustn't show how civilized we are by being brutal to those that aren't...

It wouldn't be common. This would be more or less the last resort for an offender who has not only already undergone all of the available methods of rehabilitation and failed, but has served prison time and is a directly proven repeat offender. This is like the ultimate option, used only when everything else has failed beyond all doubt.

Ignoring something won't make it go away...
No no. I meant the guy you were quoting. Arf-Rifle or whatever his name is.

What if it turns out that someone was innocent... What do you do then if punishment has already occured? Give their balls back?


That's the problem with you Germans. You are always worried about punishing people. Well you know what? It still needs to be done. In the court system that the USA uses the state must present enough evidence to show that the defendant DID it. And with all the new DNA labs springing up, proving that the dude's balls your about to cut off are the right ones never got easier.

Hey....if I really had my way they'd be executed, but that would be too easy for them. Make them scream in pain....

vigilante’s make me sick :mad:

and I hope all criminals receive counselling for there crimes in and out of prison so long as that happens I'm happy

I remember when the British tabloids released information they (illegally) obtained about where paedophiles were and what there names were...unfortunately they spelled one of the names wrong and an innocent man was killed by vigilante’s

It works wonders on the Internet, actually.Not for someone. I'm still here!!! :D

No no. I meant the guy you were quoting. Arf-Rifle or whatever his name is.

What? ARF-Rifle? :D

Cool. If only I could have an avatar....

Not for someone. I'm still here!!! :D

I don't ignore you. Germans I'd like to bang are few and far between.

No no. I meant the guy you were quoting. Arf-Rifle or whatever his name is.You mean the Airforce Communications guy? (sorry if I got it wrong. It's my eleventh straight year as a civilian and I'm only 21)

That's the problem with you Germans.I've got an American passport too.

I don't ignore you. Germans I'd like to bang are few and far between.I didn't mean you, but I've been told it's naughty to name people when they're not there, so I'm not going to.

You mean the Airforce Communications guy? (sorry if I got it wrong. It's my eleventh straight year as a civilian and I'm only 21)

Yup.

I didn't mean you, but I've been told it's naughty to name people when they're not there, so I'm not going to.

My lust: unrequited. :(

My lust: unrequited. :(My condolences. I'm suffering from jetlag without having left my timezone... :(
(I got an unofficial warning about it. But there's only two people that have put me on ignore, you'll probably be able to figure it out on your own ;) )

My condolences. I'm suffering from jetlag without having left my timezone... :(
(I got an unofficial warning about it. But there's only two people that have put me on ignore, you'll probably be able to figure it out on your own ;) )

*grr* You're oblivious to my come-ons. *runs away, crying*

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/crimelab/1815633

Story where DNA evidence was found to be faulty.

http://www.truthinjustice.org/inside-labs.htm

There is a book on bad DNA labs.

http://psychology.about.com/od/psychologynews/a/news021405wit.htm

And now, doubts about the reliability of eye witness testimony.

My Criminal Law professor told my class about a study where psychologists tested university students for the reliability of their eye witness testimony. It started out as someone stopping a random student to get them to take a survey about the university cafeteria. The researcher left plenty of space between himself and the student. As the survey went on, two men carrying a large door moved between the researcher and the student. Behind the door was another researcher. As the door past by the original researcher left with the door and the new researcher stayed behind.

These researchers only had one thing in common: they both wore white lab coats. Otherwise they had differant height, weight, skin tone, and gender. Most of the students did not notice that they talked to two different researchers.

I don't have a citation for this study right now, if you insist on it I can talk to my prof.

Also, consider that in the legal system evidence is filtered in many ways. First by the evidence (documents, testimoney, and physical evidence can only say so much about the truth of the events in question). Second, the discovery and pre-trial process where evidence is shared and fought over, both to include and exclude. The final filter of evidence is the jury, after a day in a boring court room how much will you remember? Do you think you would insist on reviewing the evidence again after the proceedings? You think that your fellow jurors will like that idea?

Beyond a reasonable doubt is meaningless. You have way too much faith in a human institution.

Not that it's my business... but isn't this a weird thread to use to come on to people?

Not that it's my business... but isn't this a weird thread to use to come on to people?

Not particularly, no. I've had to do with JesusSaves or Commando threads at times...

Not particularly, no. I've had to do with JesusSaves or Commando threads at times...Meh. But you should have learned by now that I'm not gay, Fass. ;)

Meh. But you should have learned by now that I'm not gay, Fass. ;)

If I had let a little thing like that stop me, I would have missed out on some of the hottest moments in my life. Plus, you're German. You have kink in your blood!

Not particularly, no. I've had to do with JesusSaves or Commando threads at times...
JesusSaves must have LOVED that.

If I had let a little thing like that stop me, I would have missed out on a lot.Molestation charges... Sorry. I don't intend to change my mind. :p

Molestation charges... Sorry. I don't intend to change my mind. :p

How very un-German of you. Your loss.

JesusSaves must have LOVED that.

You could always ask his puppet master what he thought of it, if he remembers.

the problem with the death penalty is it takes too long to kill them.

Now if the guillotine were still around...

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/crimelab/1815633

Story where DNA evidence was found to be faulty.

http://www.truthinjustice.org/inside-labs.htm

There is a book on bad DNA labs.

http://psychology.about.com/od/psychologynews/a/news021405wit.htm

And now, doubts about the reliability of eye witness testimony.

My Criminal Law professor told my class about a study where psychologists tested university students for the reliability of their eye witness testimony. It started out as someone stopping a random student to get them to take a survey about the university cafeteria. The researcher left plenty of space between himself and the student. As the survey went on, two men carrying a large door moved between the researcher and the student. Behind the door was another researcher. As the door past by the original researcher left with the door and the new researcher stayed behind.

These researchers only had one thing in common: they both wore white lab coats. Otherwise they had differant height, weight, skin tone, and gender. Most of the students did not notice that they talked to two different researchers.

I don't have a citation for this study right now, if you insist on it I can talk to my prof.

Also, consider that in the legal system evidence is filtered in many ways. First by the evidence (documents, testimoney, and physical evidence can only say so much about the truth of the events in question). Second, the discovery and pre-trial process where evidence is shared and fought over, both to include and exclude. The final filter of evidence is the jury, after a day in a boring court room how much will you remember? Do you think you would insist on reviewing the evidence again after the proceedings? You think that your fellow jurors will like that idea?

Beyond a reasonable doubt is meaningless. You have way too much faith in a human institution.

I have a similar experiment in one of my Criminal justice Text books.

Defense councils will always try to discredit witnesses. Always.

I feel no sympathy for the sex offenders...

Defense councils will always try to discredit witnesses. Always.

And for good reason it seems.

life? thats a little unusual, and maybe a little cruel. But I agree that these 5 year sentances are bullshit. 20 years is better.
They can't be cured, so they can't be released. Even an 80 year old can rape a child.

I'm uncomfortable with vigilantes, as they could quite possibly kill the wrong guy. Also, castrating isn't a good idea: how would you like it if you were wrongly convicted a crime and castrated? In fact, how would your wife like it? :eek:

Its wrong to take the law into your own hands, the shooter should be punished. But given the horrible nature of murder 'victims' I don't think the world is at a loss for not having them here.

Its wrong to take the law into your own hands, the shooter should be punished. But given the horrible nature of murder 'victims' I don't think the world is at a loss for not having them here.
That's a good argument against mandatory minimum sentences. You shouldn't be punished too harshly for killing kid touchers, but you should be punished somewhat for taking the law into your own hands. After all, some lives are just less valuable than others.

Cruel and unusual.

But you people still have the death penalty, so... :rolleyes:

Because executing someone who has murdered a family should be put in a nice warm jail cell, payed by the taxpayers, and more safe than the people outside.

Canada City']Because executing someone who has murdered a family should be put in a nice warm jail cell, payed by the taxpayers, and more safe than the people outside. There are more choices than death penalty or soft imprisonment, you know. I stand by Gulags. :)

An adult thought I was sexy when I was 8 no my life is ruined. No she didn't touch me or anything she just gave me that look you know that look.

In other news a commisioner in Florida is responsable for the death of a mentaly challenged man when all the mentally challenged man did was play show me with a child around his mental age. The commisioner had a sex offender notification altered to say child rapist than had them distributed throught the mentally challanged man's nieghborhood. The mentally challenged man was later found dead of an appearant suicide next to one of the signs the commisioner had altered.

There are more choices than death penalty or soft imprisonment, you know. I stand by Gulags. :)
I don't know what the prisons are like where you come from, but I've been in minimum and medium security prisons and neither were fun. I have friends who were in maximum security prisons and they say that those are pretty bad. State run prisons are worse than federal too, so most people in prison in the USA don't get "soft" imprisonment.

An adult thought I was sexy when I was 8 no my life is ruined. No she didn't touch me or anything she just gave me that look you know that look.

.
snipped original post

Are you being sarcastic or are you serious about your life being ruined because somebody gave you a "look" when you were 8?

life? thats a little unusual, and maybe a little cruel. But I agree that these 5 year sentances are bullshit. 20 years is better.

You find life imprisonment 'cruel and unusual'?

Personally, I consider it insultingly lenient, in respect to the crimes committed.

I don't know what the prisons are like where you come from, but I've been in minimum and medium security prisons and neither were fun. I have friends who were in maximum security prisons and they say that those are pretty bad. State run prisons are worse than federal too, so most people in prison in the USA don't get "soft" imprisonment. I haven't been in a prison, but I was replying to the other guy who seemed to think that imprisonment meant soft living. I don't think that.
I'm a believer that prison doesn't solve much, though… I mean, they do nothing all day, maybe at least get them working and teach them skills so they can get a job… or just work the violent criminals to payoff the tax.

If someone is a vigalante then theyre a criminal
its like criminals punishing someone for a crime

I haven't been in a prison, but I was replying to the other guy who seemed to think that imprisonment meant soft living. I don't think that.
I'm a believer that prison doesn't solve much, though… I mean, they do nothing all day, maybe at least get them working and teach them skills so they can get a job… or just work the violent criminals to payoff the tax.
There are some work and educational opportunities in prisons, but not nearly enough. Prisoners who earn a college degree before being released are much less likely to end up selling drugs, robbing people, or killing someone again when they get out. Unfortunately, this doesn't apply to sex offenders. So far nothing's been found to cure them.

I don't know what the prisons are like where you come from, but I've been in minimum and medium security prisons and neither were fun. I have friends who were in maximum security prisons and they say that those are pretty bad. State run prisons are worse than federal too, so most people in prison in the USA don't get "soft" imprisonment.

And yet, the medical care, the tax situation, the guaranteed social standards, access to facilities, guaranteed meals, etc...

It has to be said, there are MANY people living in MUCH worse situations... and they got in THAT position by NOT breaking any laws...

If someone is a vigalante then theyre a criminal
its like criminals punishing someone for a crime
Ever see the old German movie "M" by Fritz Lange?

no why?

And yet, the medical care, the tax situation, the guaranteed social standards, access to facilities, guaranteed meals, etc...

It has to be said, there are MANY people living in MUCH worse situations... and they got in THAT position by NOT breaking any laws...
They get very basic medical care because they are in the state's custody and can't fend for themselves.

Tax situation? How do you pay tax when you have no income or work a prison job that pays you in many cases less than a dollar per hour?

What guaranteed social standards? You mean the people yelling and screaming at all hours of the night so you get little sleep? Maybe the fact that sexual assaults and just plain assaults are common. Nice social standards.

There is actually not much access to facilities in alot of prisons. What little is made available is so that the prisoners don't lose their minds from boredom and start killing each other and the guards.

The guraranteed meals are of the absolute lowest quality possible. If prisoners didn't get the chance to buy foods from commisary they'd probably starve. When I was in there I could only stomach a little more than half of what I was given to eat. If a guy doesn't have people on the outside to put money into his commisary account or a chance to work and earn some money for commisary he's going to be in pretty bad shape in a couple of months.

no why?
A gang of criminals capture a child killer, because the police can't get the job done, and place him on trial before a jury of gangsters and prostitutes. It's pretty cool.

theyre still a gang of criminals...



why'd they go after the child killer anyway?

theyre still a gang of criminals...



why'd they go after the child killer anyway?
Because even criminals have some morals. Why do you think child molesters don't last long in prison?

There are more choices than death penalty or soft imprisonment, you know. I stand by Gulags. :)


Yeah- there is nothing better than having to guard a violent offender looking at life/hard labor/harsh conditions and nothing to lose.

They get very basic medical care because they are in the state's custody and can't fend for themselves.

Tax situation? How do you pay tax when you have no income or work a prison job that pays you in many cases less than a dollar per hour?

What guaranteed social standards? You mean the people yelling and screaming at all hours of the night so you get little sleep? Maybe the fact that sexual assaults and just plain assaults are common. Nice social standards.

There is actually not much access to facilities in alot of prisons. What little is made available is so that the prisoners don't lose their minds from boredom and start killing each other and the guards.

The guraranteed meals are of the absolute lowest quality possible. If prisoners didn't get the chance to buy foods from commisary they'd probably starve. When I was in there I could only stomach a little more than half of what I was given to eat. If a guy doesn't have people on the outside to put money into his commisary account or a chance to work and earn some money for commisary he's going to be in pretty bad shape in a couple of months.

You seem to ignore the fact that many people live below the poverty line, or in difficult, or dangerous, circumstances.

They do this through no fault of their own.

Many people cannot get even 'basic' medical care, which you throw out so dismissively... and many that CAN get basic medical care, spend MANY years paying for it.

I've known friends who worked in prisons, and the conditions are not (in my limited experience) nearly as bad as you suggest. I saw gym equipment (which I can't afford, and would have to pay a large sum to a gym to use), I saw reading material, I saw educational material (which is prohibitively expensive for the everyday person), I even saw big old TV sets showing cable TV.

There was occasional violence, apparently - but the same is true of the outside world, as well... and, to be honest, those imprisoned did PUT THEMSELVES there.

The guaranteed meals are NOT of the lowest standard possible - especially since prisons seem to be required to provide balanced diets, which already puts the average prisoner at an advantage over the millions of people that live under the poverty line. And they ARE guaranteed - which again, puts the prisoner ina PRIVILIGE position in society.

Because even criminals have some morals. Why do you think child molesters don't last long in prison?


maybe but not all have them have morals. otherwise they wouldnt be criminals. maybe im oversimplifying but its just that simple to me

You seem to ignore the fact that many people live below the poverty line, or in difficult, or dangerous, circumstances.

They do this through no fault of their own.

Many people cannot get even 'basic' medical care, which you throw out so dismissively... and many that CAN get basic medical care, spend MANY years paying for it.

I've known friends who worked in prisons, and the conditions are not (in my limited experience) nearly as bad as you suggest. I saw gym equipment (which I can't afford, and would have to pay a large sum to a gym to use), I saw reading material, I saw educational material (which is prohibitively expensive for the everyday person), I even saw big old TV sets showing cable TV.

There was occasional violence, apparently - but the same is true of the outside world, as well... and, to be honest, those imprisoned did PUT THEMSELVES there.

The guaranteed meals are NOT of the lowest standard possible - especially since prisons seem to be required to provide balanced diets, which already puts the average prisoner at an advantage over the millions of people that live under the poverty line. And they ARE guaranteed - which again, puts the prisoner ina PRIVILIGE position in society.
First of all, I don't think anyone should be in grinding poverty and without healthcare.

Secondly, where did your friend work? A federal prison? I was in a state run medium security facility and we had NO access to exercise equipment. I didn't get access to books for the first three weeks. I didn't get the opportunity to work for the first three weeks, and only occasionally after that.

In maximum security they allow some access to facilities like education (because it reduces recidivism), gym equipment (because it reduces stress and keeps people more peacefull), and television and reading material because boredom encourages trouble. It doesn't make life easy, it makes it tolerable.

The guraranteed meals are of the absolute lowest quality possible. If prisoners didn't get the chance to buy foods from commisary they'd probably starve. When I was in there I could only stomach a little more than half of what I was given to eat. If a guy doesn't have people on the outside to put money into his commisary account or a chance to work and earn some money for commisary he's going to be in pretty bad shape in a couple of months.


The gray baloney (?) on fake wonder bread is a real treat.

First of all, I don't think anyone should be in grinding poverty and without healthcare.

Secondly, where did your friend work? A federal prison? I was in a state run medium security facility and we had NO access to exercise equipment. I didn't get access to books for the first three weeks. I didn't get the opportunity to work for the first three weeks, and only occasionally after that.

In maximum security they allow some access to facilities like education (because it reduces recidivism), gym equipment (because it reduces stress and keeps people more peacefull), and television and reading material because boredom encourages trouble.

It doesn't make life easy, it makes it tolerable.

Unfortunately, whether you or I like it... MANY people ARE in grinding poverty, and without healthcare. And the fact remains, for some reason, we treat those who have been PROVED to have negative impact on society, BETTER than many of the 'society' itself.

You had no access to books for 3 weeks... and you say that like you suffered. I find it hard to sympathise for a 'lack of books' for 3 weeks... the fact is you quickly DID get access.

In maximum security they allow some access to education (which many want, but cannot get), gym equipment (which many cannot afford to use), and televison (which, believe it or not, IS a luxury.

MANY do not live so well. Hell, I can't afford the education I want, the healthcare I want, the access to services I want.

It doesn't make life easy, it makes it tolerable.

And yet, for MANY, life isn't tolerable. And they don't get these 'easy' handouts. I fail to see why those who have been PROVED to be societally detrimental are treated better than their society.

And, even if life in prison IS intolerable??? Criminal acts ARE a choice.

Grave N Idle

We disagree about how prisoners should be treated. We're not going to see eye to eye on this.

I think we do agree that poor people should expect more though.

Grave N Idle

We disagree about how prisoners should be treated. We're not going to see eye to eye on this.

I think we do agree that poor people should expect more though.

I don't know if they should 'expect' more... I think our society should DO more.

But, I think we agree here... we agree we won't see eye-to-eye on prison conditions, and we will see eye-to-eye on the issues of a society that seems to fail it's least members.

I have strong feelings about sex offenders.Im talkin bout the people who molest children.Upon conviction they should be publicly executed in the most painful manner that can be imagined.Hell these are baby rapers not boy scouts.I have always beleived that when you take care of a problem it is a waste of time not to take care of it forever.That might prevent one child the pain.If they are dead they will never touch another child.I dont think it is nessasary to post their name and address if they are dead.dead pedaphiles=fewer molested children.

The imaginations of people run wild

The witches are out to get us. Salem Witch Trials

The Satanists are out to get us. The Satanic Ritual sexual Abuse Trials of the late 1980s including the McMartin case.

The Commies are out to get us. The McCarthy Era

The Heritics are out to get us. The Inquazition.

The Homophiles are out to get us. I don't know what to call that time period.

Well I think I can settle this ones and for all.

They are all out to get us or at least out to get your children. Though you would be supprised how many men and women get turned on by prepubesent children. Any one with an interest is compelled to remain silent about it less they get lynch mobbed. The people who know they are arroused can't even tell a priest or a therapist less they be turned in to the short eye police. Those who panic go into hysterics and attempt to stop debates on the issue make it worse.

Try the book Harmful to Minors by Judith Levine. Maybe after reading it you will see my point.

The imaginations of people run wild

The witches are out to get us. Salem Witch Trials

The Satanists are out to get us. The Satanic Ritual sexual Abuse Trials of the late 1980s including the McMartin case.

The Commies are out to get us. The McCarthy Era

The Heritics are out to get us. The Inquazition.

The Homophiles are out to get us. I don't know what to call that time period.

Well I think I can settle this ones and for all.

They are all out to get us or at least out to get your children. Though you would be supprised how many men and women get turned on by prepubesent children. Any one with an interest is compelled to remain silent about it less they get lynch mobbed. The people who know they are arroused can't even tell a priest or a therapist less they be turned in to the short eye police. Those who panic go into hysterics and attempt to stop debates on the issue make it worse.

Try the book Harmful to Minors by Judith Levine. Maybe after reading it you will see my point.
If a person is turned on by prepubescent children he needs psychiatric help, but should be free to live his life. If he acts on that attraction he needs to be permanently isolated from society to limit the damage he will do.

The imaginations of people run wild

The witches are out to get us. Salem Witch Trials

The Satanists are out to get us. The Satanic Ritual sexual Abuse Trials of the late 1980s including the McMartin case.

The Commies are out to get us. The McCarthy Era

The Heritics are out to get us. The Inquazition.

The Homophiles are out to get us. I don't know what to call that time period.

Well I think I can settle this ones and for all.

They are all out to get us or at least out to get your children. Though you would be supprised how many men and women get turned on by prepubesent children. Any one with an interest is compelled to remain silent about it less they get lynch mobbed. The people who know they are arroused can't even tell a priest or a therapist less they be turned in to the short eye police. Those who panic go into hysterics and attempt to stop debates on the issue make it worse.

Try the book Harmful to Minors by Judith Levine. Maybe after reading it you will see my point.

I would imagine that the number of people aroused by pre-pubescent would be a fairly small percentage... based on the people I have known.

One would certainly HOPE that would be the case.

On the other hand, Britney Spears or that whole MaryKateAshley-thing, seems to be pretty good evidence that a lot of people like their girls younger than strictly legal...

The people who 'know they are aroused' aren't really the problem (although there is, obviously, something very wrong with them)... the people who are the problem are the ones who ACT ON their arousal... by sponsoring child pornography, or by taking matters into their own hands.

If a person is turned on by prepubescent children he needs psychiatric help, but should be free to live his life. If he acts on that attraction he needs to be permanently isolated from society to limit the damage he will do.

Exactly. Pretty much what I said... except I took longer saying it... :)

i think that if there is good reason to know the addresses of sex offenders, and in some cases i think there is, then the actions of one vigilante shouldnt change that.

Stories like this aren't the real problem. The problem is that there have been other cases where perfectly innocent people have been attacked because "vigilantes" got their addresses wrong. This is why states maintain a monopoly on violence.

I would imagine that the number of people aroused by pre-pubescent would be a fairly small percentage... based on the people I have known.

One would certainly HOPE that would be the case.

On the other hand, Britney Spears or that whole MaryKateAshley-thing, seems to be pretty good evidence that a lot of people like their girls younger than strictly legal...

The people who 'know they are aroused' aren't really the problem (although there is, obviously, something very wrong with them)... the people who are the problem are the ones who ACT ON their arousal... by sponsoring child pornography, or by taking matters into their own hands.

Of course, to a psychiatrist there is a world of difference between pedophilia and statatory rape. A 15-year old girl with a 65 year old man may be wierd and gross, but it isn't pedophilia. Biologically she's a woman, even if the law disagrees.

Of course, to a psychiatrist there is a world of difference between pedophilia and statatory rape. A 15-year old girl with a 65 year old man may be wierd and gross, but it isn't pedophilia. Biologically she's a woman, even if the law disagrees. Agreed.

I feel no sympathy for the sex offenders...
Nor should you.

Sympathy leads to empathy.

Antre_Travarious']Nor should you.

Sympathy leads to empathy. I felt sympathy when my dog was dying years ago. So why haven't I gone hairy?

Studies are the everything here

Studies rule my world. I don't shoot from the hip like GW. I know my world becuase I take the time to examine it.

http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/97-048_article.html

This rather EVIL site gives a good summery.

http://www.glgarden.org/ppp/statistics.html

One of my favorite stories is one told in Judith Levines book.

A 14 year old boy exkeeps from juvinile detention and makes his way home. He was sent to Juvie for being cuaght playing with his 7 yo younger brother. Oh the EVIL. Any ways some retarded cop felt it necessary to warn the nieghborhood that a dangerous sexual predater was on the loose in the area where his mother still lived.

Please. There is no such thing as Comies, Witches, Satanic Ritual Sex Abusers, Pinkos, Heritics, or any other boogy man or group of Boogy men you can dream up. If I can't imagine it. It ain't real. Stop Look Examine and instatute policies based on realities not wild imaginations.

Of course, to a psychiatrist there is a world of difference between pedophilia and statatory rape. A 15-year old girl with a 65 year old man may be wierd and gross, but it isn't pedophilia. Biologically she's a woman, even if the law disagrees.

I didn't say the things were the same...

Merely that this 'can't wait till they are old enough', and 'packaging teens in school uniforms' attitude, is marketing pre-legal sex.