NationStates Jolt Archive


Gay affair not technically adultery

East Canuck
30-08-2005, 20:15
Comment: Does that means that same-sex marriage cannot divorce on grounds of one spouse being unfaithfull?

Gay extramarital flings don't count as adultery (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050830.wxgay0830/BNStory/National/)

By CYBELE SACK

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 Updated at 8:19 AM EDT

Shelly Pickering thinks it is unfair that her husband's extramarital affair with a man doesn't legally count as adultery. So today, she's heading to court in Vancouver to challenge the law.

The 44-year-old Vancouver resident had been married nearly 17 years when, in October of 2004, she discovered her husband was having an affair with a younger man.

She and her husband separated immediately and she filed for divorce two months later, seeking an immediate end to their union.

Canada's Divorce Act allows for a no-fault divorce after a one-year separation, on grounds of marital breakdown. It also allows for an immediate divorce if there is admitted or proven adultery or cruelty.

Ms. Pickering's ex-husband signed an affidavit on Jan. 5, 2005, acknowledging his adulterous relationship, and did not appear in court in February to contest the divorce.

But Justice Nicole Garson of the B.C. Supreme Court declined to order the immediate divorce, because the definition of adultery in common law does not include homosexual relations.

The judge also told Ms. Pickering that she would hear the case again if a lawyer would argue why the legal definition of adultery should be broadened to include same-sex adultery.

The traditional definition of adultery, which dates back to church-based courts in England, is "penetrative sexual contact between a man and a woman not married to each other and one of whom is married to someone else," notes Ms. Pickering's lawyer, barbara findlay (who spells her name in lower-case letters).

Ms. findlay argues that the definition of adultery is as outdated as the original common-law definition of marriage, which was based on procreation. Times have changed, along with the definition of marriage, and so too should the definition of adultery, she said.

"The grounds for divorce should be interpreted in a way which is consistent with the views of the Supreme Court of Canada about the purpose of marriage," she said, noting that the top court has deemed marriage to be the intimate union of two people, regardless of gender.

Ms. findlay suggests that the definition of adultery be amended to something along the lines of "intimate sexual contact between two people not married to each other and one of whom is married to someone else." She said such a definition is closer to what the public already considers to be adultery.

Ms. Pickering realizes that her divorce may not come any more quickly through this legal challenge than if she had simply waited the requisite one year and obtained a no-fault divorce. But she says she is doing it to help others who find themselves in the position she did.

"It's important to me to take back that bit of control," she said. "I feel like I haven't had any control [during the marriage] . . . I wasn't given the facts. . ."

While the Divorce Act falls under federal jurisdiction, it is administered provincially. The results of the Pickering case could set a precedent not only in British Columbia but in other provinces, Ms. findlay said. "If we win this case, I think it will be followed across the country."

Chris Girouard, a spokesman for the Justice Department, said the department does not know of other similar cases or decisions that have challenged the heterosexual definition of adultery. Judith Bowers, a B.C. lawyer who works for the Justice Department, will be present as an intervenor at today's hearing at the B.C. Supreme Court and will file a brief outlining their position to the court at that time.

Ms. findlay said she will also launch a constitutional challenge based on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, arguing that the definition of adultery discriminates against gays and lesbians by making divorce less accessible to them than to heterosexuals.

For the past two decades, Toronto psychotherapist Caryn Miller has devoted part of her practice to couples with one straight partner and one homosexual or lesbian partner.

"The courts really have to catch up to protect the straight spouse in this situation and to legitimize the union of gay and lesbian people," she said.

Ms. Miller said that homosexual or lesbian infidelity is often labelled as something distinct from adultery by the gay spouse, but the effect can be no less devastating for the heterosexual spouse.

I think some laws and definitions need to be worded differently and fast.
Sumamba Buwhan
30-08-2005, 20:20
Well they were sticking to the letter of the law :P

this was the wierdest part of the article for me:
barbara findlay (who spells her name in lower-case letters).
Sinuhue
30-08-2005, 20:24
I think gay folks should be legally labelled with the title 'homewrecker' if their actions warrant it! :D
East Canuck
30-08-2005, 20:30
Well they were sticking to the letter of the law :P

this was the wierdest part of the article for me:
Because some people are somewhat anal when it comes to mistakes in our newspapers. If they didn't mention it, I'm sure a couple dozens of e-mail would have been sent to the newspaper as to the mistake of not having Mrs. findlay name capitalized.
Tirest
30-08-2005, 20:32
But not those who have a heterosexual adulterous relationship, Sinuhue?
East Canuck
30-08-2005, 20:34
But not those who have a heterosexual adulterous relationship, Sinuhue?
well, that is labeled adultery. We need another name for same-sex adulterous relationships it seems. ;)
Sdaeriji
30-08-2005, 20:36
Because some people are somewhat anal when it comes to mistakes in our newspapers. If they didn't mention it, I'm sure a couple dozens of e-mail would have been sent to the newspaper as to the mistake of not having Mrs. findlay name capitalized.

I find it weird that she doesn't capitalize her name.
Drunk commies deleted
30-08-2005, 20:38
If that law applied in New Jersey former governor Jim McGreevey might still be in office.
Sumamba Buwhan
30-08-2005, 20:46
well, that is labeled adultery. We need another name for same-sex adulterous relationships it seems. ;)


same-sex adultery it is then, as long as they get all the same benefits of regular adulterers
Sumamba Buwhan
30-08-2005, 20:47
I find it weird that she doesn't capitalize her name.


same here - I kinda wanna do the same with my name now


sincerely,
sumamba buwhan
Sinuhue
30-08-2005, 20:50
But not those who have a heterosexual adulterous relationship, Sinuhue?
They already get to be called homewreckers. Angelina Jolie anyone??
Sinuhue
30-08-2005, 20:51
well, that is labeled adultery. We need another name for same-sex adulterous relationships it seems. ;)
It should all be adultery. It shouldn't be hard to expand the term.
East Canuck
30-08-2005, 20:52
same-sex adultery it is then, as long as they get all the same benefits of regular adulterers
Ah now we enter into the separate but equal debate ;)

Also, is there such a legal term as same-sex adultery for the courts?

And, For The Record, I'm Not Following Your Crazy Trends: I'm a Capitalizing Nazi!!!
East Canuck
30-08-2005, 20:53
It should all be adultery. It shouldn't be hard to expand the term.
actually, I find it dumb that it isn't expanded yet.
Kryozerkia
30-08-2005, 20:54
Uhm... so, heterosexual affairs result in adultery, but homosexual ones don't? And yet, both are involving someone committing an infidelity.

So, by this, it means that it is perfectly legal to have homosexual affairs...

I really don't get the structure of the law... (though, this is one double standard I do find amusing)
Poland-
30-08-2005, 21:02
I agree that same-sex affairs should be included in the definition of adultry.

However, I'm starting to get sick and tired of these "seperate but equal" solutions to these sorts of problems. It's already been tried with blacks people, and look how that ended up. Personally, I don't want another "seperate but equal" era in America.
Sumamba Buwhan
30-08-2005, 21:10
Ah now we enter into the separate but equal debate ;)

Also, is there such a legal term as same-sex adultery for the courts?

And, For The Record, I'm Not Following Your Crazy Trends: I'm a Capitalizing Nazi!!!

Look, gay men and women can commit adultery too, as long as they commit it with someone of the opposite sex. See? No rights are being taken away.

*not sure what he is talking about but hopes that someone takes him seriously*
The Downmarching Void
30-08-2005, 21:16
I was wondering if/when a fellow Canuck would post this.

It strikes me as exceedingly strange that same-sex affairs don't count as adultery. Must have been some Victorian era judge covering his ass (well, legally anyways)

Perhaps the judge made the decision in order to highlight this difference and get it dealt with?
Sumamba Buwhan
30-08-2005, 21:21
Perhaps the judge made the decision in order to highlight this difference and get it dealt with?


Good point
Dishonorable Scum
30-08-2005, 21:27
So, would you prefer that homosexual affairs be counted as adultery, or would you prefer that heterosexual affairs not count as adultery?

Phrased differently, should the notion of "adultery" be stricken from the law altogether? Or should it be extended to cover homosexuals?

:p
Sumamba Buwhan
30-08-2005, 21:32
Adultery for all or adultery for noone!
East Canuck
30-08-2005, 21:34
So, would you prefer that homosexual affairs be counted as adultery, or would you prefer that heterosexual affairs not count as adultery?

Phrased differently, should the notion of "adultery" be stricken from the law altogether? Or should it be extended to cover homosexuals?

:p
Call me old-fashionned but I think adultery should be ground for divorce for everyone. I'm not liberal enough to agree with adulterous marriages... yet.
Romanore
30-08-2005, 21:34
Adultery for all or adultery for noone!

Let's call everyone--gay, straight, married, single--adulterers and be done with it. Now that's fairness, no?

Damn, I'm smart! :cool:
Sinuhue
30-08-2005, 21:39
I agree that same-sex affairs should be included in the definition of adultry.

However, I'm starting to get sick and tired of these "seperate but equal" solutions to these sorts of problems. It's already been tried with blacks people, and look how that ended up. Personally, I don't want another "seperate but equal" era in America.
Sorry, I guess I missed it. How did that 'end up' with the black people?
Sinuhue
30-08-2005, 21:40
Look, gay men and women can commit adultery too, as long as they commit it with someone of the opposite sex. See? No rights are being taken away.

*not sure what he is talking about but hopes that someone takes him seriously*
:D
Sinuhue
30-08-2005, 21:41
Call me old-fashionned but I think adultery should be ground for divorce for everyone. I'm not liberal enough to agree with adulterous marriages... yet.
It isn't adultery if it's consensual...is it? Or is it?
The Similized world
30-08-2005, 21:43
Hahaha, I love how a hetero finally got shafted by the segregation state for once :cool:
Sinuhue
30-08-2005, 21:46
Hahaha, I love how a hetero finally got shafted by the segregation state for once :cool:
Let this be a lesson to you all! If you want extramarital sex, but don't want the label of 'adulteror', snog with the same sex and you're safe!
Sumamba Buwhan
30-08-2005, 21:46
It isn't adultery if it's consensual...is it? Or is it?

I hope not. Of course if it was consentual then she progbably wouldn't be taking him to court over it.
Sumamba Buwhan
30-08-2005, 21:46
Let this be a lesson to you all! If you want extramarital sex, but don't want the label of 'adulteror', snog with the same sex and you're safe!


sound advice. I'll remember that for my upcommign marriage.
Sinuhue
30-08-2005, 21:51
sound advice. I'll remember that for my upcommign marriage.
When is that, by the way?
East Canuck
30-08-2005, 21:52
sound advice. I'll remember that for my upcommign marriage.
But only in Canada...

and maybe not for long.
Sinuhue
30-08-2005, 21:54
But only in Canada...

and maybe not for long.
Why...is same sex cheating adultery in the US? Has that been challenged?
Sumamba Buwhan
30-08-2005, 21:55
When is that, by the way?


In So. California at an arboretum on April 22, 2006 (Earth Day!)
You can give yourself to us as a wedding present.
Sinuhue
30-08-2005, 22:09
In So. California at an arboretum on April 22, 2006 (Earth Day!)
You can give yourself to us as a wedding present.
Would I have to wait to be unwrapped? I might get lonely on the gift table.
Sumamba Buwhan
30-08-2005, 22:14
Would I have to wait to be unwrapped? I might get lonely on the gift table.

I think the greatest gift would be you in lingerie that you recently bought waiting for us in the limo after the reception. Of course you shoudl go to the wedding and reception but just leave the reception 10 minutes before we do to get ready for us :P
Sinuhue
30-08-2005, 22:16
I think the greatest gift would be you in lingerie that you recently bought waiting for us in the limo after the reception. Of course you shoudl go to the wedding and reception but just leave the reception 10 minutes before we do to get ready for us :P
Stop it...you are tempting me too much...I've caught myself a number of times seriously considering it...but then I'd be entering the US and I promised not to do that...
Sumamba Buwhan
30-08-2005, 22:31
Stop it...you are tempting me too much...I've caught myself a number of times seriously considering it...but then I'd be entering the US and I promised not to do that...

*stomps foot and shakes fist at sky*

Damn you Salazarrrrrrrrrrrr
Sinuhue
30-08-2005, 22:33
*stomps foot and shakes fist at sky*

Damn you Salazarrrrrrrrrrrr
? The senator?
Sumamba Buwhan
30-08-2005, 22:46
? The senator?


no the fictional character I yell at when things don't go my way*, because I have to blame somebody. Maybe I could blame Bush. If you want to enter the States when Bush leaves office and give us our wedding present then, I won't complain.



*it's a line from the Charlies Angels movie actuall
Sinuhue
30-08-2005, 22:47
no the fictional character I yell at when things don't go my way*, because I have to blame somebody. Maybe I could blame Bush. If you want to enter the States when Bush leaves office and give us our wedding present then, I won't complain.


Ah...for sex I can forget my politics:)

(but I can't promise I won't moan "SMASH THE STATE" at some point!)
Sumamba Buwhan
30-08-2005, 22:50
Ah...for sex I can forget my politics:)

(but I can't promise I won't moan "SMASH THE STATE" at some point!)

*snoopy dance*

That would just turn me on all the more! Viva la revolucion ala menage a trios

*perfect strangers dance of joy*
Zexaland
31-08-2005, 02:51
And, For The Record, I'm Not Following Your Crazy Trends: I'm a Capitalizing Nazi!!!

:rolleyes: You bastard!! You probably want to extermiate all the lower case Jews as well, don't you? DON'T YOU!?! :D
KShaya Vale
31-08-2005, 05:16
Brief history lesson: The original definition of Adultry (way back in Biblical times) was a man who had intercourse with a married woman not his wife or a married woman having intercourse with any man not her husband.

Back in that era, it was not uncommon or illegal for a man to have many wives and also see other women (prostitutes or otherwise). Women were also legally allowed to have sex prior to marriage but it tended to ruin the dowery. :D

It also was common practice for men to have sex with boys. It wasn't considered the same as homosexuality because they were boys. I don't understand what their logic was on that one but there it was.

Personally, and especially being poly, I think the law should allow for a divorce in the case of infidelity, which would allow for know relationships outside the marriage (mono or poly) but punish cheating.