NationStates Jolt Archive

I knew things were going to go badly when I read last year in the Economist that the Bush administration was going to apply its bankrupt abstinence-only policies to Africa (do they even live in the real world?) When will governments learn that religion and ideology do not make good policies.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9118071/

Amestria']I knew things were going to go badly when I read last year in the Economist that the Bush administration was going to apply its bankrupt abstinence-only policies to Africa (do they even live in the real world?) When will governments learn that religion and ideology do not make good policies.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9118071/

Bush and his cronies should be charged with crimes against humanity for this. They condem millions to death with their insane abstinence policies and theyre proud of it too boot. /sigh...not like the pope is getting charged with anything either, and the catholic church is even worse on this issue.

Bush and his cronies should be charged with crimes against humanity for this. They condem millions to death with their insane abstinence policies and theyre proud of it too boot. /sigh...not like the pope is getting charged with anything either, and the catholic church is even worse on this issue.
The reason: They say they do it to save peoples souls. They are clearly insane and do not get charged for crimes against humanity.

Is anyone really surprised by this? It was more or less predicted by those who opposed his idea of abstinence only policies in the first place. I bet you'll get a few who'll come out and say that they (AIDS sufferers) deserved it for being morally corrupt.

It's not really a setback since Bush never intended to keep his promise to begin with.

Is anyone really surprised by this?

For those who keep themselves informed, no...

It's not really a setback since Bush never intended to keep his promise to begin with.

No one counted on Bush to keep his promise. He is however sabotaging the more effective attempts by African governments and the United Nations to fight the epidemic. Uganda's proven A.B.C. policy, which reduced AIDS infections from 30% to 6% is being discarded... :( Its all so depressing...

It's disgusting that the government of such a powerful developed nation can so easily ignore scientific evidence if it doesn't fit with the religious dogma they want to impose.

Activists in both Uganda and the United States say the country is now in the grip of condom shortage so severe that men are using plastic garbage bags in an effort to protect themselves.

It's not even as if these people need persuading to protect themselves and the US is simply unwilling to argue the case for condoms - they WANT condoms, and US policy is indirectly denying them access.

I do not agree with the present US policy, and feel there should be more of a emphasis placed on condom distribution.

However, I do not believe the UN is effective either (never has and never will be), and I feel they are also failing the continent. They have failed many various countries in the continent in the past (Sierra Leone, Somalia, etc). The hideous amount of red-tape and overhead should concern you all. If some of the money that was spent on the UN bureaucratic morass was spent on condoms, I'm sure there wouldn't be any condom shortages. Also, what else should concern you is the woefully corrupt nature of regimes throughout the continent. I feel that less of the blame should on Bush, and rather these hideously corrupt leaderships that have badly mismanaged their countries.

Abstinence wont stop Rape-Gangs, or contraction through female circumcision, or ignorance such as the wisdespread belief among African natives, that having sex with a virgin will cure aids.

There are areas in Africa that are 75% HIV positive.

Abstinence isnt the issue..education and action are the only feasible solutions.
Bush is merely saying "we dont care", and hiding behind the Christian Right banner.

Fixing bad government in African nations will be more of a problem solver... in everyway.

I think teaching the people about blood born infection would be more useful.

Fixing bad government in African nations will be more of a problem solver... in everyway.

Are you ignoring the fact that current US policy is damaging African nations as it stands?

Fixing bad government in African nations will be more of a problem solver... in everyway.

More bad news on that front as well...

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9116360/

Fixing bad government in African nations will be more of a problem solver... in everyway.

Let's invade!

Let's invade!
Oh no... :(

Yes. We should invade Africa.

And after we capture Africa, those with HIV and AIDs, will be fenced out and forced to wear something identifying them, to make sure no one else has the danger of uh..being near them. Of course, we can tell, that all the Africans who are smart enough to NOT have Sex, aren't getting AIDs...hmm...natural selection?

Of course, we can tell, that all the Africans who are smart enough to NOT have Sex, aren't getting AIDs...hmm...natural selection?

Tell you what. Get Americans to stop having sex first. I'll call you 70 years down the line and be there to laugh when you all die out.

Serapindal, I can't tell whether you're being serious or not, but I sure hope your not. Invasion and annexation of other countries, AIDS as natural selection. You'd fit right in with facism.

What? They ditched the ABC plan? Why would they have a problem with that? That WAS primarily abstinence?

Not that this particularly surprised me.

Tell you what. Get Americans to stop having sex first. I'll call you 70 years down the line and be there to laugh when you all die out.

Serapindal, I can't tell whether you're being serious or not, but I sure hope your not. Invasion and annexation of other countries, AIDS as natural selection. You'd fit right in with facism.

1. We can't die out, if we keep bringing immigrants in.

2. Abstinence until married works, only if your partner did it to. But if so, it's a 100% immunity against AIDs.

1. We can't die out, if we keep bringing immigrants in.

2. Abstinence until married works, only if your partner did it to. But if so, it's a 100% immunity against AIDs.
Abstinence and condoms do not work in Africa. They believe that sex with a virgin is a prevention for AIDS, and they don't use condoms anyway, it's a cultural thing.

Conclusion? Restart the jolly good British Empire. :) :cool:

Abstinence and condoms do not work in Africa. They believe that sex with a virgin is a prevention for AIDS, and they don't use condoms anyway, it's a cultural thing.Not everyone believes that, and the main reason people do is because there's no one to tell them otherwise. The virgin story is a worst case scenario. It occurs, but not necessarily everywhere. And don't come with that "cultural thing" crap. There's a big difference between various African cultures. That kind of statement makes about as much sense as saying the British have the exact same eating habits as Germans...
Conclusion? Restart the jolly good British Empire. :) :cool:Meh, not the white man's burden crap again. That's what caused most of the problems in the first place.

Conclusion? Restart the jolly good British Empire. :) :cool:

yes, then we can start handing out Cold Showers rather than Condoms :p

Not everyone believes that, and the main reason people do is because there's no one to tell them otherwise. The virgin story is a worst case scenario. It occurs, but not necessarily everywhere. And don't come with that "cultural thing" crap. There's a big difference between various African cultures. That kind of statement makes about as much sense as saying the British have the exact same eating habits as Germans...
Meh, not the white man's burden crap again. That's what caused most of the problems in the first place. I was indeed generalising. I meant that you couldn't apply the same techniques everywhere, because some cultures don't use contraception, and others don't use abstinence.
For the record, I'm British, and I love sausages. :)

And I was not being serious about the empire. Although some countries really are not helped by aid, due to their corrupt governments.

Abstinence and condoms do not work in Africa. They believe that sex with a virgin is a prevention for AIDS, and they don't use condoms anyway, it's a cultural thing.

Conclusion? Restart the jolly good British Empire. :) :cool:

If so, then it's simple.

We must destroy their culture.

African Culture isn't as good as civilized culture. Simple as that. If we just eliminated, things would be better for everyone. Blacks, Whites, Chinese, Martians, etc.

If so, then it's simple.

We must destroy their culture.

African Culture isn't as good as civilized culture. Simple as that. If we just eliminated, things would be better for everyone. Blacks, Whites, Chinese, Martians, etc. Um, no… not destroy. It is possible to alter without destroying, you know. We didn't need to ban sausages to topple Naziism. :)

Um, no… not destroy. It is possible to alter without destroying, you know. We didn't need to ban sausages to topple Naziism. :)

Well, if we altered it to such a point, it wouldn't really be African Culture. So hypothethically, we're destroying African Culture, and replacing it with a somewhat similiar different culture.

Well, if we altered it to such a point, it wouldn't really be African Culture. So hypothethically, we're destroying African Culture, and replacing it with a somewhat similiar different culture. You don't need to "alter" African culture, really. What you mean is that you would like to remove the harmful superstition, and the corrupt governments. Neither of those constitute "culture", except amongst chavs.

I was indeed generalising. I meant that you couldn't apply the same techniques everywhere, because some cultures don't use contraception, and others don't use abstinence.
For the record, I'm British, and I love sausages. :) What about Sauerkraut? :p

And I was not being serious about the empire. Although some countries really are not helped by aid, due to their corrupt governments.Sorry. I've heard too many serious proposals to bring the Empire back to find it funny anymore...

You don't need to "alter" African culture, really. What you mean is that you would like to remove the harmful superstition, and the corrupt governments. Neither of those constitute "culture", except amongst chavs.

Harmful Superstition? I think that's the majority of African Culture, if you added in blatant uncivility, poor values, and a backwards sense of time. We need to assimilate them.

What about Sauerkraut? :p

Sorry. I've heard too many serious proposals to bring the Empire back to find it funny anymore... Saürkraut? Lass mich sehen… ich weiße dass Kraut ist "cabbage", aber ich weiße nicht so viel was "Saür" ist. Entschuldigung sie mir, bitte.

:p :p

Sorry. I've heard too many serious proposals to bring the Empire back to find it funny anymore...
I've been thinking about a serious proposal for random first world nations in Europe and America to make various African countries part of their country. Imperialism screwed it up and I'm sure imperialism is the only thing that can bring them up to speed.

This is a difficult topic for me. I'm a noninterventionist, for the most part.
But here's a giant, continental shithole that just keeps getting deeper and deeper in shit every year. It's almost impossible to provide any really effective aid to Africa because political corruption and instablitity have become all-pervasive.
We can throw condoms into the fire, but it isn't going to save Mother Africa. Of course, it's light years ahead of absitnence in terms of efficiency, even if it's just a lite-stick bandaid.
Affecting change from the bottom-up doesn't seem to be working. It's an uphill battle, and the world (including Africa) is losing it.

It seems as if a top-to-bottom approach would provide the only solutions effectively. I'm just not sure how that could take place without doing more harm than good. Any ideas?

1. We can't die out, if we keep bringing immigrants in.

2. Abstinence until married works, only if your partner did it to. But if so, it's a 100% immunity against AIDs.
Abstinance is unrealistic. Just about nobody in the USA abstains until marriage, yet we have low rates of HIV. Why? Condoms.

Abstinance is unrealistic. Just about nobody in the USA abstains until marriage, yet we have low rates of HIV. Why? Condoms.

Blah. We should sell condoms ONLY to Adults.

Abstinance is unrealistic. Just about nobody in the USA abstains until marriage, yet we have low rates of HIV. Why? Condoms.

Yep, that's the thing. People can huff and puff with their moral high-ground, but in the end, their position is just that, unrealistic.

Blah. We should sell condoms ONLY to Adults.

Why? So anyone who isn't an adult will get a STD when having sex?

We need to assimilate them.

"We are the Borg. Lower your shields and power down your weapons. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."

Why? So anyone who isn't an adult will get a STD when having sex?

Hey, at least he's egalitarian: He wishes for the death by AIDS of all equally.

Blah. We should sell condoms ONLY to Adults.
Yeah, nothing teaches a teenage kid a more valuable lesson than giving birth to an HIV infected baby.

Why? So anyone who isn't an adult will get a STD when having sex?

Sounds about right.

See, the age of consent is 18, and breaking the law, is a crime.

Let an STD be your crime. Nuff said.

Sounds about right.

See, the age of consent is 18, and breaking the law, is a crime.

Let an STD be your crime. Nuff said. Let the punishment fit the crime…? Oh, wait, I forgot, of course you should be born with HIV because your parents conceived you before they were 18. :rolleyes:

How about let the punishment fit the right bloody people?

Let the punishment fit the crime…? Oh, wait, I forgot, of course you should be born with HIV because your parents conceived you before they were 18. :rolleyes:

How about let the punishment fit the right bloody people?

Like Teens?

Like Teens?
You seem to be advocating that they give birth to babies who will bear HIV because of their parents' mistake.

You seem to be advocating that they give birth to babies who will bear HIV because of their parents' mistake.

Make no mistake: He is. He's either being ironical, or he likes seeing innocents suffer for his pleasure.

Make no mistake: He is. He's either being ironical, or he likes seeing innocents suffer for his pleasure. Or he just doesn't understand. Which would take a fairly large set of blinkers.

Or he just doesn't understand. Which would take a fairly large set of blinkers.

Blinker? Didn't get it... (Not a native). I know it's a car function, but...

Blinker? Didn't get it... (Not a native). I know it's a car function, but... It's a thing you put on a horse's head so it can't see to the side of it. Prevents it from getting distracted, and you can put them over its eyes so it'll go backwards.

You have got to be kidding me. Because Bush cuts condom supplies to Africa, it's his fault people over there are contracing AIDS?!?! How depraved are you people? If the nimrods over there can't control where they put their genitals, they deserve AIDS!!

It's disgusting that the government of such a powerful developed nation can so easily ignore scientific evidence if it doesn't fit with the religious dogma they want to impose.



It's not even as if these people need persuading to protect themselves and the US is simply unwilling to argue the case for condoms - they WANT condoms, and US policy is indirectly denying them access.

Why don't other countries give them condoms then?

You have got to be kidding me. Because Bush cuts condom supplies to Africa, it's his fault people over there are contracing AIDS?!?! How depraved are you people? If the nimrods over there can't control where they put their genitals, they deserve AIDS!!

Although somewhat hostile, I do have to side with him.

Stop blaming George Bush for all of the world's problems.

You have got to be kidding me. Because Bush cuts condom supplies to Africa, it's his fault people over there are contracing AIDS?!?! How depraved are you people? If the nimrods over there can't control where they put their genitals, they deserve AIDS!! True, but it's often the women who get AIDS.

It's disgusting that the government of such a powerful developed nation can so easily ignore scientific evidence if it doesn't fit with the religious dogma they want to impose.



It's not even as if these people need persuading to protect themselves and the US is simply unwilling to argue the case for condoms - they WANT condoms, and US policy is indirectly denying them access.

So Africans are not capable of controlling their desires and when they want to screw?

WTF. These africans must be really messed up in the head. Sex, or getting aids and dying? C'mon, even an ignorant turd world person could understand that.

Hey, if you want to be immoral and not practice abstinance, its not my problem if you get AIDs.

Hey, if you want to be immoral and not practice abstinance, its not my problem if you get AIDs.
Having sex isn't immoral. Refusing to provide people with the sex education and condoms needed to save their lives is immoral.

Having sex out of wedlock is immoral.

Having sex out of wedlock is immoral.

Yup, as much as the closet socialists here and those who abhor personal responsibility hate it, you're right.

Yup, as much as the closet socialists here and those who abhor personal responsibility hate it, you're right. I'm not a closet socialist, I'm an out in the open just-a-little-sprinkling-of-socialist. But really, something has to be done. Uganda's ABC program seems to be working well, and no wonder - just look at its sensibility. Maybe we should try it in Britain, but oh no… they assume I'm going to be fucking everything in sight because I'm sixteen.

Ahem.

Rant over.

Yup, as much as the closet socialists here and those who abhor personal responsibility hate it, you're right.

Blaming them for AIDS is like blaming your posture of attacking innocents, letting people die in a place when condoms ARE avaiable and so on for 9/11. So, pick, is it right or is it wrong?

Bush said abstinence. We said no, it won't work. It didn't work. See? How hard is that to understand. Bush made a bad decision. He was told it was bad. Bad things happened. Do what needs to be done and get condoms and education to Africa. Also, get them to Texas while we're at it.

Having sex out of wedlock is immoral.
According to who?

Bush said abstinence. We said no, it won't work. It didn't work. See? How hard is that to understand. Bush made a bad decision. He was told it was bad. Bad things happened. Do what needs to be done and get condoms and education to Africa. Also, get them to Texas while we're at it.

*Hands you a cookie*
By the way, Desperate Times were calling for you.

Having sex out of wedlock is immoral.
No, it's just normal. Immoral is letting people die because your invisible friend in the sky doesn't approve of letting people wrap their mule before sex.

*Hands you a cookie*
By the way, Desperate Times were calling for you.
Always in a rush, them.

No, it's just normal. Immoral is letting people die because your invisible friend in the sky doesn't approve of letting people wrap their mule before sex.

Usually we're in opposite sides, Commies. But not today. *Hands you a box of cookies*

Usually we're in opposite sides, Commies. But not today. *Hands you a box of cookies*
Thanks. *gives spare cookies to the cookieless*

No, it's just normal. Immoral is letting people die because your invisible friend in the sky doesn't approve of letting people wrap their mule before sex. Immoral would also be throwing contraceptives at the country and not considering anything else. But you're more reasonable than that, aren't you?

Immoral would also be throwing contraceptives at the country and not considering anything else. But you're more reasonable than that, aren't you?
Consider what? What other things have we to consider? What else works in a hurry? Give some examples. What are you talking about? Abstinence? Refer to article. Got anything else?

Immoral would also be throwing contraceptives at the country and not considering anything else. But you're more reasonable than that, aren't you?
Yeah, I'm more reasonable than that. I'd provide sex education, help fund clinics to spread knowledge, medicine, and acceptance of condom use, and I'd also try to use political and financial leverage to make the governments increase literacy and services to women. That's what's needed, but condoms are definately part of the solution.

Im not even going to argue that having sex out of weblock is immoral. I know its true because its in the bible. You can say what you want about me and my religious affiliation, but you will not sway my conviction.

Consider what? What other things have we to consider? What else works in a hurry? Give some examples. What are you talking about? Abstinence? Refer to article. Got anything else? Examples… let me see… Uganda?
Let me explain. The Ugandan ABC program first of all promotes abstinence. Now, as we all know, abstinence is fail safe but the education is not. So they basically say "the safest way is to keep your plonker where it belongs, but if you don't, USE CONTRACEPTIVES FFS". Double safety. Also combating why people don't use contraceptives… superstition and all that.

Im not even going to argue that having sex out of weblock is immoral. I know its true because its in the bible. You can say what you want about me and my religious affiliation, but you will not sway my conviction.
Nobody is trying sway you. You can believe whatever you want but that has nothing to do with the AIDS epidemic in Africa. Want to be a Christian, how about saving the people before you try converting them?

Im not even going to argue that having sex out of weblock is immoral. I know its true because its in the bible. You can say what you want about me and my religious affiliation, but you will not sway my conviction.

Bat guano can be used to generate a fireball by magic. I know its true because its in the Player's Handbook. You can say what you want about me and my religious affiliation, but you will not sway my conviction.

Examples… let me see… Uganda?
Let me explain. The Ugandan ABC program first of all promotes abstinence. Now, as we all know, abstinence is fail safe but the education is not. So they basically say "the safest way is to keep your plonker where it belongs, but if you don't, USE CONTRACEPTIVES FFS". Double safety. Also combating why people don't use contraceptives… superstition and all that.
"Uganda's success in reducing high HIV infection rates is the result of high-level political commitment to HIV prevention and care, involving a wide range of partners and all sectors of society. Same-day results for HIV tests and social marketing of condoms and self-treatment kits for sexually transmitted infections, backed up by sex education programmes, have helped reduce very high HIV infection rates."
http://www.who.int/inf-new/aids2.htm
So, you're saying condoms as well? Then, good.

Abstinance is unrealistic. Just about nobody in the USA abstains until marriage, yet we have low rates of HIV. Why? Condoms.

Umm, are you forgetting the large moral populations in the US? Christians, Muslims, and jews all beleive in Abstinence until marriage, and that's why their HIV rates are LOW. Now look at atheists-whole different' ball game.

"Uganda's success in reducing high HIV infection rates is the result of high-level political commitment to HIV prevention and care, involving a wide range of partners and all sectors of society. Same-day results for HIV tests and social marketing of condoms and self-treatment kits for sexually transmitted infections, backed up by sex education programmes, have helped reduce very high HIV infection rates."
http://www.who.int/inf-new/aids2.htm
So, you're saying condoms as well? Then, good. I'm saying whatever works. I don't like it, but… if it works… (Is Catholic saying this :( )however, condoms alone won't work, not by any means. Just look at Britain.

Umm, are you forgetting the large moral populations in the US? Christians, Muslims, and jews all beleive in Abstinence until marriage, and that's why their HIV rates are LOW. Now look at atheists-whole different' ball game.

So, you're telling me God is ALSO punishing their kids for what YOU BELIEVE is their father's sins? Nice God you have there.

Umm, are you forgetting the large moral populations in the US? Christians, Muslims, and jews all beleive in Abstinence until marriage, and that's why their HIV rates are LOW. Now look at atheists-whole different' ball game. Are you forgetting what Catholic girls are like? ;)

It seems as if a top-to-bottom approach would provide the only solutions effectively. I'm just not sure how that could take place without doing more harm than good. Any ideas?
Economic Imperialism. Remove any restrictions that prevent our businesses from operating freely in Africa. Over time, after buying US products and working for US companies, Africans will become Westernized. You’d probably even see companies handing out free condoms to their workers as part of a medical plan or something.

Im not even going to argue that having sex out of weblock is immoral. I know its true because its in the bible. You can say what you want about me and my religious affiliation, but you will not sway my conviction.
That's the problem with the faithfull. They cannot change their mind even when presented with overwhelming evidence that they are wrong.

Umm, are you forgetting the large moral populations in the US? Christians, Muslims, and jews all beleive in Abstinence until marriage, and that's why their HIV rates are LOW. Now look at atheists-whole different' ball game.

Which is why the daughters of fundamentalist Christians are statistically more likely to become pregnant than the daughters of other branches of Christiandom and/or atheist parents. It is also why the states with the highest rates of fundamentalism (deep South, Utah, Idaho) also have the highest rate of teen pregnancy.

They have sex just as often as their secular neighbors, friend. It's just that the secular neighbors are being more responsible about the possible negative consequences than the fundamentalists, who rely on the magic shield method of contraception (if God doesn't want you to become pregnant, he will magically shield the egg. Mind you that this is an actual theory).

Im not even going to argue that having sex out of weblock is immoral. I know its true because its in the bible. You can say what you want about me and my religious affiliation, but you will not sway my conviction.

It also says in the Bible that you should treat all people as your neighbors. Do you really think your neighbor's wife would like to die from a disease contracted via rape, or because the only way she could prevent her children from starving was by prostituting herself? I know mine wouldn't. If so, then why are you so quick to dismiss African women who are in the same position? Seems to me that there's a marked difference between what you say you believe in and what you're actions say you believe in, but what do I know, as to you I am undoubtedly one of those vile corrupt secular humanists.

Umm, are you forgetting the large moral populations in the US? Christians, Muslims, and jews all beleive in Abstinence until marriage, and that's why their HIV rates are LOW. Now look at atheists-whole different' ball game.
Look at Europe. Lots of non-practicing religious people, lots of agnostics and atheists. Very low HIV rate. It's not religion, it's education.

Please show me one nation that has an atheist majority, or even a large atheist minority where HIV rates are comparable to religious nations like those in Africa.

That's the problem with the faithfull. They cannot change their mind even when presented with overwhelming evidence that they are wrong.
A moral belief can’t be proven wrong. :p

It also says in the Bible that you should treat all people as your neighbors. Do you really think your neighbor's wife would like to die from a disease contracted via rape, or because the only way she could prevent her children from starving was by prostituting herself? I know mine wouldn't. If so, then why are you so quick to dismiss African women who are in the same position? Seems to me that there's a marked difference between what you say you believe in and what you're actions say you believe in, but what do I know, as to you I am undoubtedly one of those vile corrupt secular humanists. Well said. Want fluffle/cookie?

Abstinance is unrealistic. Just about nobody in the USA abstains until marriage, yet we have low rates of HIV. Why? Condoms.

Umm, are you forgetting the large moral populations in the US? Christians, Muslims, and jews all beleive in Abstinence until marriage, and that's why their HIV rates are LOW. Now look at atheists-whole different' ball game.

Umm, are you forgetting the large moral populations in the US? Christians, Muslims, and jews all beleive in Abstinence until marriage, and that's why their HIV rates are LOW. Now look at atheists-whole different' ball game.

Again, you seem quite happy with your god making kids BORN WITH AIDS for the (according to YOUR views) sins of their parents.

A moral belief can’t be proven wrong. :p
True, I was talking about the fact that condoms and sex education work better than abstinence though. On that subject and many others the faithfull just ignore facts and use their religious beleifs to stand in the way of progress.

Which is why the daughters of fundamentalist Christians are statistically more likely to become pregnant than the daughters of other branches of Christiandom and/or atheist parents. It is also why the states with the highest rates of fundamentalism (deep South, Utah, Idaho) also have the highest rate of teen pregnancy.
No, that would be because of immigrants and their children. Not that there is anything wrong with immigration, but don’t try to say things that aren’t true.
I guess San Antonio having the highest teen pregnancy rate in the country is all the church-goers fault and not the majority Hispanic population, which are on average uneducated and loose with their sexual activities.
It also says in the Bible that you should treat all people as your neighbors. Do you really think your neighbor's wife would like to die from a disease contracted via rape, or because the only way she could prevent her children from starving was by prostituting herself? I know mine wouldn't. If so, then why are you so quick to dismiss African women who are in the same position? Seems to me that there's a marked difference between what you say you believe in and what you're actions say you believe in, but what do I know, as to you I am undoubtedly one of those vile corrupt secular humanists.
Rapists use condoms?

True, I was talking about the fact that condoms and sex education work better than abstinence though. On that subject and many others the faithfull just ignore facts and use their religious beleifs to stand in the way of progress. ABC. All are happy, and it's doubly safe. :)

Umm, are you forgetting the large moral populations in the US? Christians, Muslims, and jews all beleive in Abstinence until marriage, and that's why their HIV rates are LOW. Now look at atheists-whole different' ball game.
Almost nobody in the US waits until marriage. They pay lip-service to abstinence, but premarital sex is just as common among Christians as among atheists. Christians just tend to be ignorant of sexual information and end up getting unwanted kids more often.

Well said. Want fluffle/cookie?

Sure, but just one.

Send the rest to those who need it more than I.

True, I was talking about the fact that condoms and sex education work better than abstinence though. On that subject and many others the faithfull just ignore facts and use their religious beleifs to stand in the way of progress.
Some people consider absistence sex education.
Personally, I think the model for sex education should be

"If you must, wear a condom.”

Some people consider assistance sex education.
Personally, I think the model for sex education should be

"If you must, wear a condom.”
Yep. Abstinance must be presented as an option, but it's just not realistic for most people, so other options must be presented too.

Economic Imperialism. Remove any restrictions that prevent our businesses from operating freely in Africa. Over time, after buying US products and working for US companies, Africans will become Westernized. You’d probably even see companies handing out free condoms to their workers as part of a medical plan or something.

Wow. That's a really good idea.

Some people consider absistence sex education.
Personally, I think the model for sex education should be

"If you must, wear a condom.”

Unless said people have medical evidence to back up a claim that this system is better, they should keep religion out of state affairs and let people get ACTUALLY EDUCATED!!!

Unless said people have medical evidence to back up a claim that this system is better, they should keep religion out of state affairs and let people get ACTUALLY EDUCATED!!!
Gives you back the cookie you gave me. You deserve it.

I do not agree with the present US policy, and feel there should be more of a emphasis placed on condom distribution.

However, I do not believe the UN is effective either (never has and never will be), and I feel they are also failing the continent. They have failed many various countries in the continent in the past (Sierra Leone, Somalia, etc). The hideous amount of red-tape and overhead should concern you all. If some of the money that was spent on the UN bureaucratic morass was spent on condoms, I'm sure there wouldn't be any condom shortages. Also, what else should concern you is the woefully corrupt nature of regimes throughout the continent. I feel that less of the blame should on Bush, and rather these hideously corrupt leaderships that have badly mismanaged their countries.
Very good point.

Gives you back the cookie you gave me. You deserve it.

Awww, thanks, but I have an extra package here. Here, let's share. *Shares a pack of cookies with Desperate Measures and sends some to Desperate Times.*

Umm, are you forgetting the large moral populations in the US? Christians, Muslims, and jews all beleive in Abstinence until marriage, and that's why their HIV rates are LOW. Now look at atheists-whole different' ball game.
You know, why wait for AIDS to kill the infidels off? Why not just take them out with a few well placed nuclear missiles?

You know, why wait for AIDS to kill the infidels off? Why not just take them out with a few well placed nuclear missiles?

*Raises hand* Oooo! I know this one! I know this one!

*In 2nd-grader-like voice*
Because that would be murder, however letting a whole continent die a slow painful death due to negligence isn't!

*Raises hand* Oooo! I know this one! I know this one!

*In 2nd-grader-like voice*
Because that would be murder, however letting a whole continent die a slow painful death due to negligence isn't!
That gets you one banana. Would you like to try for another?

That gets you one banana. Would you like to try for another?

Nahhh. You see, I'm from Brazil. (Yes, we have bananas.)

Unless said people have medical evidence to back up a claim that this system is better, they should keep religion out of state affairs and let people get ACTUALLY EDUCATED!!!
The problem is, most teenagers are irresponsible by definition. The last thing they are thinking about in the heat of the moment is a condom. So, you look at teen sex unfavorably and encourage them to avoid situations where they are liable to “forget” to protect themselves, but at the same time, educate them on how to use a condom so when the inevitable occurs, they have a better chance of using one.

The problem is, most teenagers are irresponsible by definition. The last thing they are thinking about in the heat of the moment is a condom. So, you look at teen sex unfavorably and encourage them to avoid situations where they are liable to “forget” to protect themselves, but at the same time, educate them on how to use a condom so when the inevitable occurs, they have a better chance of using one.Do you speak from experience?

The problem is, most teenagers are irresponsible by definition. The last thing they are thinking about in the heat of the moment is a condom. So, you look at teen sex unfavorably and encourage them to avoid situations where they are liable to “forget” to protect themselves, but at the same time, educate them on how to use a condom so when the inevitable occurs, they have a better chance of using one.

I referred to abstinence-ONLY programs. The abstinence part should be minor. Getting through them that they need to wear condoms is the priority, unless anyone shows me ACTUAL EVIDENCE otherwise.

1. We can't die out, if we keep bringing immigrants in.

Actually, yes, you will die out. America will only just have a change of dominant race group to whoever is the majority then. That means bye bye to the Caucasians.


2. Abstinence until married works, only if your partner did it to. But if so, it's a 100% immunity against AIDs.

Not the way the Church is brainwashing those down in Africa. And what about those already born with it? Bet you forgot about those. Abstinence only programs cannot and will not work if you want to stop the spread of STDs. Show me a case where such a program was implemented without any others backing it that reduced cases of unmarried sex.

I dare you.

In fact, I think you just happen to be trolling topics with facists or near facists ideas.

Im not even going to argue that having sex out of weblock is immoral. I know its true because its in the bible. You can say what you want about me and my religious affiliation, but you will not sway my conviction.

The bible also said it was bad to eat shellfish. And that stoning kids who didn't listen to their parents was a good thing. And wearing polyester is a sin.

I'm glad I don't live in your theocratic little world.

Did you also forget that it was mentioned some time back that the Church was encouraging ignorance regarding STDs down in Africa? Things like prayer helping you when medicines are available? That AIDS would not transfer between married couples?

If your invisible friend in the sky is there, he's probably long gone, disgusted with the whole lot of us.



Umm, are you forgetting the large moral populations in the US? Christians, Muslims, and jews all beleive in Abstinence until marriage, and that's why their HIV rates are LOW. Now look at atheists-whole different' ball game.

You got any evidence to back that up other than the nether?

No, that would be because of immigrants and their children. Not that there is anything wrong with immigration, but don’t try to say things that aren’t true.
I guess San Antonio having the highest teen pregnancy rate in the country is all the church-goers fault and not the majority Hispanic population, which are on average uneducated and loose with their sexual activities.

Possible, as there does seem to be a link between high rates of immigration and high incidence of teen pregnancy. When I cross index the rate of the leading centers of immigration (from this site: http://www.cis.org/articles/2003/back1603.html) with the estimated teen pregnancy rate taken off of this site: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/state_pregnancy_trends.pdf, I get something that looks like this:

Top ten states for immigration, combined with rank in rate of teen pregnancy:

California 7
Texas 5
Florida 6
New York 14
Illinois 20
New Jersey 16
Virginia 32
Arizona 2
Maryland 13
North Carolina 9

Nevertheless, correlation (which I'm not entirely inclined to say even exists, as the rate seems to flucuate quite significantly, and it is unclear from this what is causing it) is not causation. Why, for instance, if high teen pregancy rates were caused by immigration, would Virginia be so low? Are the immigrants that go there from more "moral" societies than the one's that go to Arizona? Most of those states are also well-known for their militant aversion to anything but abstinence training, and have comparitively low rates of education, which has far more to do with whether a woman gets pregnant than whether or not she's surrounded by immigrants, AFAIK.


Rapists use condoms?

If they could die from raping a woman, they very well might.

Amestria']I knew things were going to go badly when I read last year in the Economist that the Bush administration was going to apply its bankrupt abstinence-only policies to Africa (do they even live in the real world?) When will governments learn that religion and ideology do not make good policies.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9118071/

Agreed, Sorry guys there isn't much we can do as both of our leading political parties suck.

This is an interesting film that I want to see about Texas.
http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2005/shelbyknox/about.html