NationStates Jolt Archive

My home province of Alberta has FINALLY raised the minimum wage (http://www3.gov.ab.ca/hre/employmentstandards/about/minwage.asp) from $5.90 to $7.00! It comes into effect as of September 1st. As well, there will no longer be a different wage for adults and students...it used to be about fifty cents less for students (youths).

I say finally, because Alberta has had the lowest minimum wage in Canada for a long time. As well, the minimum wage way back in 1993 was $5.00. The cost of living has gone up a lot since then, and yet this wage was only increased to $5.90.

Seven dollars an hour is still minimum. As in, working full time, you can only afford the bare minimum of necessities. But it's better than just shy of six bucks. So, YAY!!!

Well, at least your minimum wage is now higher than the US minimum wage (assuming $7.00 Canadian) at $5.84 an hour.

$5.00 Canadian...that would be $4.17 US! Your minimum was less than ours was in 1991...

My home province of Alberta has FINALLY raised the minimum wage (http://www3.gov.ab.ca/hre/employmentstandards/about/minwage.asp) from $5.90 to $7.00! It comes into effect as of September 1st. As well, there will no longer be a different wage for adults and students...it used to be about fifty cents less for students (youths).

I say finally, because Alberta has had the lowest minimum wage in Canada for a long time. As well, the minimum wage way back in 1993 was $5.00. The cost of living has gone up a lot since then, and yet this wage was only increased to $5.90.

Seven dollars an hour is still minimum. As in, working full time, you can only afford the bare minimum of necessities. But it's better than just shy of six bucks. So, YAY!!!
You lucky bastard. Gordie Cambell has made moves to lower minimum wage, even though the cost of living is skyrocketing. For example, he lowered minimum wage from $8.00 to $6.50. Once you have worked 500 hours it moves back up to $8.00. They did this because it wasn't profitable enough for companies like McDonalds to hire inexperienced workers.

You lucky bastard. Gordie Cambell has made moves to lower minimum wage, even though the cost of living is skyrocketing. For example, he lowered minimum wage from $8.00 to $6.50. Once you have worked 500 hours it moves back up to $8.00. They did this because it wasn't profitable enough for companies like McDonalds to hire inexperienced workers.
Wow. I didn't know this! That's a load of crap!

For those of you who don't know it...BC is where many, many Canadians want to live...but very few can actually afford it. I'm one of them :( , and I actually make a damn good wage!

My home province of Alberta has FINALLY raised the minimum wage (http://www3.gov.ab.ca/hre/employmentstandards/about/minwage.asp) from $5.90 to $7.00! It comes into effect as of September 1st. As well, there will no longer be a different wage for adults and students...it used to be about fifty cents less for students (youths).

I say finally, because Alberta has had the lowest minimum wage in Canada for a long time. As well, the minimum wage way back in 1993 was $5.00. The cost of living has gone up a lot since then, and yet this wage was only increased to $5.90.

Seven dollars an hour is still minimum. As in, working full time, you can only afford the bare minimum of necessities. But it's better than just shy of six bucks. So, YAY!!!

Yay! now it will be much harder to get a job in Alberta, and the economy will suffer! Mwahahahaha

Yay! now it will be much harder to get a job in Alberta, and the economy will suffer! Mwahahahaha
Dream on.

Is there a reason I don't like minimum wage laws, oh yeah, I'm an employer.

Is there a reason I don't like minimum wage laws, oh yeah, I'm an employer.
I would agree minmum wage laws are bad, but capitalism proves people are selfish pricks.

They pay you in actual cash, or the usual beaver pelts or hands of tobacco?

In the UK in October the minimum wage for adults over 21 will rise to £5.05 an hour ($9.05 - USA, $10.90 - Canada). For 18-21 year olds it is £4.25 an hour ($7.65 - USA, $9.15 - Canada). This while better than in some other countries is still disgracefully low especially with the cost of living now and I believe the minimum wage should be at least £10 an hour.

Wow. I didn't know this! That's a load of crap!

For those of you who don't know it...BC is where many, many Canadians want to live...but very few can actually afford it. I'm one of them :( , and I actually make a damn good wage!
Imagine trying to get buy as a teacher. You only work six hours a day and 10 months a year and earn a crummy wage. If you count all the time a teacher works at lunch and afterschool helping students, the average teacher earns less than minimum wage. They also can't do anything about it because it is illegal for them to go on strike. Yet they might strike anyways.

On the news I've also seen a story about hospital workers that are unable to find housing. The work at what used to be a decent paying job and are now unable to afford a place to live. And its illegal for them to go on strike, too.

Also while working part time after school a student cannot afford car insurence. Although this may not be the case in a few years. Why? The govt plans on making the legal age a person can drive by themselves (get thier N) to 18, meaning only 10% of the students at a highschool will be able to drive.

While it is nice that Alberta is getting a higher minimum wage, but I think BC might need it more. Cambell and the Liberals should try some of the "left-wing" policies coming from Alberta's Conservatives.

Is there a reason I don't like minimum wage laws, oh yeah, I'm an employer.
No, you're not. You are 14 years old. Your dad is an employer (probably).

They pay you in actual cash, or the usual beaver pelts or hands of tobacco?
Wampum, luv.

No, you're not. You are 14 years old. Your dad is an employer (probably).

True... but i will be in 4 years.. and its my grandad actually, my dad left when I was 3. and thats ok by me.

Is there a reason I don't like minimum wage laws, oh yeah, I'm an employer.
Well, I'm an employee and would like them increased so I can afford to rent an apartment and buy food.

BTW I read your 10 Conservative Values rant on your blog. 1 and 4 contradict eachother, 4 and 6 contradict eachother. 5 contradicts itself. 9 has been law for years.

You lucky bastard. Gordie Cambell has made moves to lower minimum wage, even though the cost of living is skyrocketing. For example, he lowered minimum wage from $8.00 to $6.50. Once you have worked 500 hours it moves back up to $8.00. They did this because it wasn't profitable enough for companies like McDonalds to hire inexperienced workers.

I thought it was $6.15, but I haven't bothered brushing up on it lately. I'm one of the lucky kids that has enough volunteer experience that I don't have to work at McDonald's AND I don't have to settle for minimum wage. I've had about 20 job offers in the past year or two and I'm not even applying anywhere >.<

Wow. I didn't know this! That's a load of crap!

For those of you who don't know it...BC is where many, many Canadians want to live...but very few can actually afford it. I'm one of them :( , and I actually make a damn good wage!

I live in BC... and life where I live is fairly cheap. A friend of mine is living in a 1-bedroom apartment for $380 right now, and some tiny apartments in Vancouver cost more than my mom was paying for a huge house on an acreage... Mind you, I live in the middle of flippin' nowhere, so that's a bit of a disadvantage. It's pretty, though.

I thought it was $6.15, but I haven't bothered brushing up on it lately. I'm one of the lucky kids that has enough volunteer experience that I don't have to work at McDonald's AND I don't have to settle for minimum wage. I've had about 20 job offers in the past year or two and I'm not even applying anywhere >.<
I know its $6.50 because thats what I earned. I'm making $8 now. Not enough to afford car insurence. I guess I won't be able to drive to Unniversity:(. I guess I need to think up a way to scam old people, get a job producing illegal automatic weapons or start growing pot. The only other way to afford unniversity is to be born rich.

What wage are you making anyways?

I live in BC... and life where I live is fairly cheap. A friend of mine is living in a 1-bedroom apartment for $380 right now, and some tiny apartments in Vancouver cost more than my mom was paying for a huge house on an acreage... Mind you, I live in the middle of flippin' nowhere, so that's a bit of a disadvantage. It's pretty, though.
Ya, it is nice, and it snows there too:p. However I would like to live in the part of BC were public schools are open 5 days a week.

However I would like to live in the part of BC were public schools are open 5 days a week.
Huh?

I know its $6.50 because thats what I earned. I'm making $8 now. Not enough to afford car insurence. I guess I won't be able to drive to Unniversity:(. I guess I need to think up a way to scam old people, get a job producing illegal automatic weapons or start growing pot. The only other way to afford unniversity is to be born rich.

What wage are you making anyways?

I'm too lazy to actually work, plus I have school, so I babysit. Overnight babysitting, which is easily the cushiest job ever. I get there, the kids are sleeping. I do homework, watch TV, go to sleep. Wake up in the morning, actually babysit for 20 minutes, then get a ride home. And I make $40 each time.

Huh?

Some school districts in BC have adopted a 4-day school week. They were thinking about doing this here, but people kicked up a fuss about having to find babysitters on the Friday. I think it's a 12 month school year, too.

Some school districts in BC have adopted a 4-day school week. They were thinking about doing this here, but people kicked up a fuss about having to find babysitters on the Friday. I think it's a 12 month school year, too.
I heard its still a 10 month school year. They just have to teach the same stuff in 4/5 the time they had before. If they teachers accually find a way to make it work it would be great. People could then only have to go to school from K-10 and they would be as smart as those who did K-12, or we could continue with K-12 and graduate highschool that much smarter.

There is just one problem with that. The teachers won't be able to find a way to teach all that in 4/5 the time without a significant drop in comprehension. At least not with the budget they have.

Some school districts in BC have adopted a 4-day school week. They were thinking about doing this here, but people kicked up a fuss about having to find babysitters on the Friday. I think it's a 12 month school year, too.
Really? Interesting. Three days off to forget everything, with short breaks every couple of months as opposed to two full months to forget everything...I don't know...none of the research I've seen has been really conclusive on which way is better, so I suppose it's up to the needs of the communities in question.

I heard its still a 10 month school year. They just have to teach the same stuff in 4/5 the time they had before. If they teachers accually find a way to make it work it would be great. People could then only have to go to school from K-10 and they would be as smart as those who did K-12, or we could continue with K-12 and graduate highschool that much smarter.

There is just one problem with that. The teachers won't be able to find a way to teach all that in 4/5 the time without a significant drop in comprehension. At least not with the budget they have.
You can not legally cut down instructional time. They might have a 10 month system, but only if the days are longer to make up for it.

You can not legally cut down instructional time. They might have a 10 month system, but only if the days are longer to make up for it.

Yeah, the days are longer. I think maybe 8 hours? It's stupid, though. I have trouble focusing at the end of a 6 hour day. The extra 2 hours would just have REALLY bored kids not learning anything. Although, I would support later school hours for high schools.

You can not legally cut down instructional time. They might have a 10 month system, but only if the days are longer to make up for it.
There are to simple arguements to that reply.

1. The education budget is not large enough to pay the teachers to work the number of hours they are supposed to work so they had to reduce the time they spend educating the students by 20%.

2. Gordon Cambell and the Liberals are above the law. They have broken several contracts with private buisnesses and municiple governments(mostly they had to pay for something and didn't). When people ask about it Cambell says something like "We did not really like the contract when we signed it so we are not going to live up to it".

Yeah, the days are longer. I think maybe 8 hours? It's stupid, though. I have trouble focusing at the end of a 6 hour day. The extra 2 hours would just have REALLY bored kids not learning anything. Although, I would support later school hours for high schools.
I agree that eight hours would be extreme.

In Chile, school is either in the morning or late afternoon, to accommodate parental schedules. My brothers are all very nocturnal...I think they'd have done much better with a system like that! Of course, we don't really have the population in Canadian centres to warrant such a system:(.

The 12 month system has some good benefits. You still get as much time off, but it's less onerous since it's not all clumped into one vacation. And often in the high school levels, learning is not so interupted. You avoid the startup and wind down mind-freeze.

There are to simple arguements to that reply.

1. The education budget is not large enough to pay the teachers to work the number of hours they are supposed to work so they had to reduce the time they spend educating the students by 20%. Meaning you likely have more half time and three quarter time positions (less pay and benefits) rather than full time teachers. And even more likely, the oldtimers are being put out to pasture, and young, fresh, and cheap teachers are being brought in to cut costs. Regardless of the budget, each course is alotted a minimum instructional time that can not, legally, be messed with. Doing so would contravene the Education Act, which brings me to your next point:

2. Gordon Cambell and the Liberals are above the law. They have broken several contracts with private buisnesses and municiple governments(mostly they had to pay for something and didn't). When people ask about it Cambell says something like "We did not really like the contract when we signed it so we are not going to live up to it".
True...but the onus is not on the government to provide instructional time. It's up the the boards of education. Regardless of lack of funds, they MUST provide the hours of instruction required, or be held in violation of the Education Act. So you see...it doesn't matter to Gordy if the teachers just can't make ends meet. It's not his problem. Unfortunately.

I agree that eight hours would be extreme.

In Chile, school is either in the morning or late afternoon, to accommodate parental schedules. My brothers are all very nocturnal...I think they'd have done much better with a system like that! Of course, we don't really have the population in Canadian centres to warrant such a system:(.

The 12 month system has some good benefits. You still get as much time off, but it's less onerous since it's not all clumped into one vacation. And often in the high school levels, learning is not so interupted. You avoid the startup and wind down mind-freeze.
I would love that system. I prefer to sleep from 3am till Noon. With the current system I only get 6.5 hours sleep a night. Yay, public schools encourage sleep disorders!

Even if they repeated the first to periods at the end of the schoolday, giving the student the option to go to either (or both if you need to). The teachers would probably enjoy the increase in pay too. If they work 8 hours a day they might make more a year than the students they are teaching.

I agree that eight hours would be extreme.

In Chile, school is either in the morning or late afternoon, to accommodate parental schedules. My brothers are all very nocturnal...I think they'd have done much better with a system like that! Of course, we don't really have the population in Canadian centres to warrant such a system:(.

The 12 month system has some good benefits. You still get as much time off, but it's less onerous since it's not all clumped into one vacation. And often in the high school levels, learning is not so interupted. You avoid the startup and wind down mind-freeze.


There're two big high schools where I live (big being about 1000 students each. There are also a few 200-500 student high schools). At one point, I was going to one of them (the one that actually has a good reputation) and I had to get up at 6 AM, ride the bus for half an hour, and get to school AN HOUR AND A HALF BEFORE IT STARTED. If I were one of the types that took several hours to get ready for school, I don't know what I would have done. I took to falling asleep on the nice couches in the main entrance. And on desks throughout the day. If it had've started around noon, I'm sure it would have a much higher success rate (it's a self paced program, and most people don't do well in it, me included.)

You lucky bastard. Gordie Cambell has made moves to lower minimum wage, even though the cost of living is skyrocketing. For example, he lowered minimum wage from $8.00 to $6.50. Once you have worked 500 hours it moves back up to $8.00. They did this because it wasn't profitable enough for companies like McDonalds to hire inexperienced workers.

you realize raising the minimium wage is an inflationary move increasing the cost of items, while lowering it is a deflationary move ? so by lowering the minimum wage your actually lowering the cost of living while increasing it will increase the cost of living..... basic economics ....

Meaning you likely have more half time and three quarter time positions (less pay and benefits) rather than full time teachers. And even more likely, the oldtimers are being put out to pasture, and young, fresh, and cheap teachers are being brought in to cut costs. Regardless of the budget, each course is alotted a minimum instructional time that can not, legally, be messed with. Doing so would contravene the Education Act, which brings me to your next point:


True...but the onus is not on the government to provide instructional time. It's up the the boards of education. Regardless of lack of funds, they MUST provide the hours of instruction required, or be held in violation of the Education Act. So you see...it doesn't matter to Gordy if the teachers just can't make ends meet. It's not his problem. Unfortunately.
Hmmm that is an extremely goood point. Hell, Gordy would blame the teachers even if it was his problem.

you realize raising the minimium wage is an inflationary move increasing the cost of items, while lowering it is a deflationary move ? so by lowering the minimum wage your actually lowering the cost of living while increasing it will increase the cost of living..... basic economics ....
Basic economics doesn't generally translate to savings for the people who rely on minimum wage. And basic economics doesn't take into account the fact that once prices go up, they generally stay up, regardless of whether the profit margin increases or not...and it isn't the low man on the totem pole receiving the benefits.

Hmmm that is an extremely goood point. Hell, Gordy would blame the teachers even if it was his problem.
It in fact affords him the perfect opportunity to do just that. Create a problem the education system can not properly handle, yet are accountable for, and then blame them for the failure. It's win-win for someone who wants to prove something is broken. Break it first. Just ask Ralph Klein.

And on the economics topic...minimum wage is not indexed to cost of living, meaning, despite the fact that the cost of living has risen markedly over the past 10 years, the minimum wage increases have fallen drastically short of actually accounting for that rise. This is more in the way of 'catch up' than anything.

Basic economics doesn't generally translate to savings for the people who rely on minimum wage. And basic economics doesn't take into account the fact that once prices go up, they generally stay up, regardless of whether the profit margin increases or not...and it isn't the low man on the totem pole receiving the benefits.

i disagree.. items most effected by changes in minimum wage are the ones more likely to reflect a change when more efficent production methods are developed.. obviously we cant say if lowering the minimum wage would provide benifits for the lower class because well.. it has never been lowered. But why do you think it is the price of products go down over time.... becuase production becomes more efficent (cost of production is lowered). Taking this into account we can extrapolate that if the cost of production were to decrease due to a lowering of employee pay (which accounts for 70% of cost of production for most products) the price would then be lowered.

And on the economics topic...minimum wage is not indexed to cost of living, meaning, despite the fact that the cost of living has risen markedly over the past 10 years, the minimum wage increases have fallen drastically short of actually accounting for that rise. This is more in the way of 'catch up' than anything.

but cost of production is accounted for in pricing which is indexed in cost of living.... as wages make up a majority of the cost of production on most products... it indirectly is indexed and directly influences the costs of living.

i disagree.. items most effected by changes in minimum wage are the ones more likely to reflect a change when more efficent production methods are developed.. obviously we cant say if lowering the minimum wage would provide benifits for the lower class because well.. it has never been lowered. But why do you think it is the price of products go down over time.... becuase production becomes more efficent (cost of production is lowered). Taking this into account we can extrapolate that if the cost of production were to decrease due to a lowering of employee pay (which accounts for 70% of cost of production for most products) the price would then be lowered.
Which would certainly be a much more valid argument if said production actually took place in our country, rather than overseas, where rock bottom production costs are already available. Instead, what you have is a section of people who are overwhelmingly employed in the domestic service industry. Lower production costs do not translate into higher wages for these people.

I would love that system. I prefer to sleep from 3am till Noon. With the current system I only get 6.5 hours sleep a night. Yay, public schools encourage sleep disorders!

Even if they repeated the first to periods at the end of the schoolday, giving the student the option to go to either (or both if you need to). The teachers would probably enjoy the increase in pay too. If they work 8 hours a day they might make more a year than the students they are teaching.

Yeh. Teens are supposed to have this nocturnal-ish sleep schedule, and we're supposed to get a minimum of 11 hours' sleep a night. Studies show this over and over, but schools still start at 7:30, 8:00 if you're lucky. The benefit of going to an alternate school is that it starts at 9:00, so I get an extra hour of sleep. And most of the people have learning problems, so I get the honour of being the smartest person in the school.

Which would certainly be a much more valid argument if said production actually took place in our country, rather than overseas, where rock bottom production costs are already available. Instead, what you have is a section of people who are overwhelmingly employed in the domestic service industry. Lower production costs do not translate into higher wages for these people.

your basing your logic on the parameters that minimum wage is overwhelmingly found in domsetic jobs.. i would dispute that. They are found in agricultural jobs, and retail, and the food sector etc.. etc..

In each of these cases, wages are accounted for when determining price of products, from hamburgers, to t-shirts, to the corn you buy. In each of these cases a raise in the minimum wage will directly impact these sectors... I would say domestic work is but a small segment of the overall picture

Hmmm that is an extremely goood point. Hell, Gordy would blame the teachers even if it was his problem.

Ugh. I try to ignore him as much as possible. It worries me that someone who seems to be so thoroughly despised by the population of his province still managed to get re-elected. He's like Bush!

Things that are great fun: Trying to explain to East Coast friends that the BC Liberals are a right-leaning party. They mocked me and said I was being stupid because liberals are left-wing. I finally managed to explain it to them, but I don't think they believed me.

Also: I don't know if you know who Graham Bruce is (Former Labour minster, responsible for the wage reduction, if I recall correctly), but he grew up across the street from my house. During the election, his son (who was his campaign manager) lived there. Dammit, his son was really hot, too. Too bad he was a Liberal. Anyway, my dad and Graham Bruce have been friends ever since we moved to this house (the Bruce family is generally nice - Graham has a niece who was named after me (not because of my greatness, but because it's a nice name.)) Anyway, Graham tried over and over to explain to me why wage reductions and the end of the tuition freeze were good for me and how ACTUALLY there were more jobs for students than BC knew what to do with. The sad bit is that he actually believes all that crap.

obviously we cant say if lowering the minimum wage would provide benifits for the lower class because well.. it has never been lowered.


... Cana2 and I are both from BC, where the minimum wage was lowered a few years ago. And guess what! Quality of life went down and unemployment and homelessness skyrocketed.

There're two big high schools where I live (big being about 1000 students each. There are also a few 200-500 student high schools)...(it's a self paced program, and most people don't do well in it, me included.)
You consider that a big schools? I live in a town and there are 5 highschools with 1500-2000 students each. Oh well. I did something like that in grade 7.
I changed schools half way through January. My teacher talked to my old teacher and looked at my old report card. He found I had already been taught all the stuff he was just about to teach. He also noticed I would finish my work in 20 min and would cause problems for the next 40 min. So he told me to start at the from of the textbook and do every question in the book. I finished the book in May. To bad for me their is not a self paced highschool in the area. I probably could have graded early.

you realize raising the minimium wage is an inflationary move increasing the cost of items, while lowering it is a deflationary move ? so by lowering the minimum wage your actually lowering the cost of living while increasing it will increase the cost of living..... basic economics ....
The problem is people want to live in the area. Demand for houses is going through the roof and supply is staying about the same. The value of land has increased because of this, therefore increasing ones property taxes. People who have been living here for years are starting to be unable to afford the nessesities because of this. People who work for small buisnesses have had it perticularly hard because as the buisness's overhead increase significantly the only way the buisness can stay afloat is to pay the employees less.

My home province of Alberta has FINALLY raised the minimum wage (http://www3.gov.ab.ca/hre/employmentstandards/about/minwage.asp) from $5.90 to $7.00! It comes into effect as of September 1st. As well, there will no longer be a different wage for adults and students...it used to be about fifty cents less for students (youths).

I say finally, because Alberta has had the lowest minimum wage in Canada for a long time. As well, the minimum wage way back in 1993 was $5.00. The cost of living has gone up a lot since then, and yet this wage was only increased to $5.90.

Seven dollars an hour is still minimum. As in, working full time, you can only afford the bare minimum of necessities. But it's better than just shy of six bucks. So, YAY!!!
That's very good news.

Alberta has been hard on salaries in other sectors too (namely public) so it's good to see them relaxing the strangle-grip a bit.

your basing your logic on the parameters that minimum wage is overwhelmingly found in domsetic jobs.. i would dispute that. They are found in agricultural jobs, and retail, and the food sector etc.. etc..

In each of these cases, wages are accounted for when determining price of products, from hamburgers, to t-shirts, to the corn you buy. In each of these cases a raise in the minimum wage will directly impact these sectors... I would say domestic work is but a small segment of the overall picture
It seems a pretty large one, according to Canada Statistics:

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/econ40.htm

If you notice, the service-producing industry by far outweighs the goods-producing sector. Even if you take out things like transportation and warehousing, you've still got a big chunk of employment in the service industry...not domestic service...I used domestic only to refer to the employment within the nation, not to the type of service. I think we just had a mix up in terms on that one.

Now, yes, these wages are factored into the cost...but the cost has gone up with inflation over the years while the wages remained the same. Wages are always going to be behind cost increases...but I prefer the gap to be closed a bit, and this increase helps do that.

They pay you in actual cash, or the usual beaver pelts or hands of tobacco?

probably hockey equipment and accessories

I would agree minmum wage laws are bad, but capitalism proves people are selfish pricks.
No, capitalism makes people selfish pricks.

That's very good news.

Alberta has been hard on salaries in other sectors too (namely public) so it's good to see them relaxing the strangle-grip a bit.
Yup...plenty of sectors have taken significant pay cuts, or worse...had pay increases that meant fewer available jobs. It's time, with all our wealth, to let people actually meet their minimum needs working a full time job.

$11/hr Canadian for me, and I'm 16 (almost 17), so I've got a good advantage.

You consider that a big schools? I live in a town and there are 5 highschools with 1500-2000 students each. Oh well. I did something like that in grade 7.
I changed schools half way through January. My teacher talked to my old teacher and looked at my old report card. He found I had already been taught all the stuff he was just about to teach. He also noticed I would finish my work in 20 min and would cause problems for the next 40 min. So he told me to start at the from of the textbook and do every question in the book. I finished the book in May. To bad for me their is not a self paced highschool in the area. I probably could have graded early.

I live in the middle of nowhere, I tell you. I'm on Vancouver Island, in a place with a total population of 50,000 (5,000 in the actual city, 45,000 in the surrounding communities).

The problem with the self paced program was that there was no incentive to finish courses, and nobody cared if you were there or not, and most people spent the days down by the river. I mean, your choices were to go to class and talk to your friends, hang out at the river and drink, smoke pot, and get laid, or do work. It took me 4 years to get through grade 9, and I'm absurdly smart. The people who did best were the average students who were able to self-discipline. If I hadn't have skipped grades 7 and 10, I would be starting grade 10 this year instead of grade 12. If that makes any sense.

The 12 month system has some good benefits. You still get as much time off, but it's less onerous since it's not all clumped into one vacation. And often in the high school levels, learning is not so interupted. You avoid the startup and wind down mind-freeze.
I would suggest that such a system would better prepare children for adulthood working life, too.

The most I ever made before I got a teaching job was $10/hour, doing research at the University. I can't imagine trying to live on that now. And I honestly don't remember how I managed to make ends meet when I made $6.50. Then again, I didn't have a house or two kids. It scares me to think that some people are making those wages and DO have kids to try and support. *shudders*

I would suggest that such a system would better prepare children for adulthood working life, too.
Agreed. What a shock when after 12 years you have to work through the summer!

I think the minimum wage in Ontario where I live is 8 bucks, but we have more taxes then Alberta does, so it propably comes out to about the same thing, but I work for the city I live in as a student labourer, so I make 11.60 an hour.

The most I ever made before I got a teaching job was $10/hour, doing research at the University. I can't imagine trying to live on that now. And I honestly don't remember how I managed to make ends meet when I made $6.50. Then again, I didn't have a house or two kids. It scares me to think that some people are making those wages and DO have kids to try and support. *shudders*

I have friends who are teen single parents, some with more than one kid, trying to live off welfare and go to school so they can graduate, with no help from anyone else. I'm just waiting for the day when the government suddenly realises that people can't bloody SURVIVE on welfare, let alone support kids.

Agreed. What a shock when after 12 years you have to work through the summer!

I'm rather looking forward to it. I get so BORED during summer.

I think the minimum wage in Ontario where I live is 8 bucks, but we have more taxes then Alberta does, so it propably comes out to about the same thing, but I work for the city I live in as a student labourer, so I make 11.60 an hour.
I think it evens out...Albertans pay some of the highest income taxes in the country, plus we are one of the few provinces that charges health care premiums.

Still, our total cost of living is a lot lower than other areas, especially if you are just comparing urban cost of living. But our cities are pretty small...as they grow, no doubt the costs will also even out.

I'm rather looking forward to it. I get so BORED during summer.
I remember those days. They never seemed to end. Now they just fly by.

YOUTH IS WASTED ON THE YOUNG!!! :D

I have friends who are teen single parents, some with more than one kid, trying to live off welfare and go to school so they can graduate, with no help from anyone else. I'm just waiting for the day when the government suddenly realises that people can't bloody SURVIVE on welfare, let alone support kids.
That's the point. They aren't really supposed to survive. Welfare is supposed to wear you down to a nub so that you choose three jobs and never seeing your kids, and an early death over the constant hassle of trying to get your benefits.

I remember those days. They never seemed to end. Now they just fly by.

YOUTH IS WASTED ON THE YOUNG!!! :D

True, that. I lecture my little sisters on how they should enjoy playing with dolls while they still can, and meanwhile I can't wait until I get out of here and am independent.

I think it evens out...Albertans pay some of the highest income taxes in the country, plus we are one of the few provinces that charges health care premiums.

Still, our total cost of living is a lot lower than other areas, especially if you are just comparing urban cost of living. But our cities are pretty small...as they grow, no doubt the costs will also even out.
:surprised: I'm not familiar with what taxes are paid in other provinces, but I was under the impression that we paid on the lower end due to oil revenues.

Looking it up (http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/faq/taxrates-e.html), though, I see you are correct.

I live in the middle of nowhere, I tell you. I'm on Vancouver Island, in a place with a total population of 50,000 (5,000 in the actual city, 45,000 in the surrounding communities).
Were only about 60,000 people in total.

We got some low taxes here. Boo, Alberta's flat income tax.

I think it evens out...Albertans pay some of the highest income taxes in the country, plus we are one of the few provinces that charges health care premiums.

Still, our total cost of living is a lot lower than other areas, especially if you are just comparing urban cost of living. But our cities are pretty small...as they grow, no doubt the costs will also even out.
My Uncle lives in Alberta. He says that the cost of living there is rediculous. He does live in Fort McMurry, and earns a even more rediculous amount of money. He says the unless you can get a job at a mine there you won't be able to afford to live there. I guess that is to be expected though, everything has to be trucked in, seeing as it is basicly in the middle of nowhere.

My Uncle lives in Alberta. He says that the cost of living there is rediculous. He does live in Fort McMurry, and earns a even more rediculous amount of money. He says the unless you can get a job at a mine there you won't be able to afford to live there. I guess that is to be expected though, everything has to be trucked in, seeing as it is basicly in the middle of nowhere.
That situation is specific to Fort Mac, and other far northern locales (just so people don't think it's Alberta-wide ;)).

I know its $6.50 because thats what I earned. I'm making $8 now. Not enough to afford car insurence. I guess I won't be able to drive to Unniversity:(. I guess I need to think up a way to scam old people, get a job producing illegal automatic weapons or start growing pot. The only other way to afford unniversity is to be born rich.

What forms of insurance do you have to have to own a car there? In illinois it's only liability so it's relatively cheap especially if you have an old beater of a car.

Were only about 60,000 people in total.

Weird... There's a lot of old people here, and a couple of private schools I kinda tend to forget about...

What forms of insurance do you have to have to own a car there? In illinois it's only liability so it's relatively cheap especially if you have an old beater of a car.
I'm not really sure about what forms of insurance you need, but me and my friends are only able to afford one month and insurence then go a month without being able to drive then get another month of insurance. Where I live, when you are 16 you get your learners permit (L) and a year later you can get your new drivers licence (N) then two years latter you can get your full licence. I do know that to insure a car for someone with a L cost more than more. Insuring a car for someone with a N costs less than a L but more than a regular licence.

Weird... There's a lot of old people here, and a couple of private schools I kinda tend to forget about...
I think my town may have had a babyboom 15 years ago. Ruffly the same population but over 5 times the people in highschool.

My home province of Alberta has FINALLY raised the minimum wage (http://www3.gov.ab.ca/hre/employmentstandards/about/minwage.asp) from $5.90 to $7.00! It comes into effect as of September 1st. As well, there will no longer be a different wage for adults and students...it used to be about fifty cents less for students (youths).

I say finally, because Alberta has had the lowest minimum wage in Canada for a long time. As well, the minimum wage way back in 1993 was $5.00. The cost of living has gone up a lot since then, and yet this wage was only increased to $5.90.

Seven dollars an hour is still minimum. As in, working full time, you can only afford the bare minimum of necessities. But it's better than just shy of six bucks. So, YAY!!!

Are you actually affected by this?

My home province of Alberta has FINALLY raised the minimum wage (http://www3.gov.ab.ca/hre/employmentstandards/about/minwage.asp) from $5.90 to $7.00! It comes into effect as of September 1st. As well, there will no longer be a different wage for adults and students...it used to be about fifty cents less for students (youths).

I say finally, because Alberta has had the lowest minimum wage in Canada for a long time. As well, the minimum wage way back in 1993 was $5.00. The cost of living has gone up a lot since then, and yet this wage was only increased to $5.90.

Seven dollars an hour is still minimum. As in, working full time, you can only afford the bare minimum of necessities. But it's better than just shy of six bucks. So, YAY!!!

However, I've heard over there that you can't get a job that doesn't pay less then 12 bones an hour. If that's the case, it really doesn't matter what minimum wage is, does it?

However, I've heard over there that you can't get a job that doesn't pay less then 12 bones an hour. If that's the case, it really doesn't matter what minimum wage is, does it?
My dog would be so happy if I got paid in bones.

Man, I didn't know the wages in NA got so paltry. It's $12.75/hr in local currency, or about US$9.56/hr.

EDIT: found a more up-to-date page.

Man, I didn't know the wages in NA got so paltry. It's $12.30/hr in local currency, or about US$9.22/hr.
I lust for that minimum wage.

I lust for that minimum wage.

Believe me, it isn't enough in Sydney...

Mind, the median wage here is about 50,000 p/annum.

I believe, though, that youths can be paid about $10 an hour in local currency (which is still pretty good!)

Believe me, it isn't enough in Sydney...

Mind, the median wage here is about 50,000 p/annum.

I believe, though, that youths can be paid about $10 an hour in local currency (which is still pretty good!)
I would like to see $12.30 in my local currency. Maybe I could by two months of car insurence at a time instead of just one.

hahhahahaha E7.77 all the way..of course an absurd price of living accompanies this :(

hahhahahaha E7.77 all the way..of course an absurd price of living accompanies this :(
You get 7.77 tabs of E per hour? Damn your rich. ROFL

:surprised: I'm not familiar with what taxes are paid in other provinces, but I was under the impression that we paid on the lower end due to oil revenues.

Looking it up (http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/faq/taxrates-e.html), though, I see you are correct.
Scary, isn't it? When I lived in the NWT, I made almost $10,000 more than I do now, and got nearly $5000 a year BACK after filing my taxes. Now I make less, and am in the hole about $2000. ALBERTA YOU SUCK!!!!

My Uncle lives in Alberta. He says that the cost of living there is rediculous. He does live in Fort McMurry, and earns a even more rediculous amount of money. He says the unless you can get a job at a mine there you won't be able to afford to live there. I guess that is to be expected though, everything has to be trucked in, seeing as it is basicly in the middle of nowhere.
Ah...but Fort McMurray is a weird fish. It's booming so much, there isn't housing available for all the workers needed there, and housing costs are through the roof because they can't keep up with demand. Overall, the cost of living elsewhere in Alberta is not bad.

And supplies have to be trucked in no matter where you live. Or brought in by train. How else do you think we get bananas from Ecuador??? :D

Are you actually affected by this?
Via three of my brothers who are making minimum wage...I expect lavish gifts this Christmas in lieu of homemade crap.... :D

However, I've heard over there that you can't get a job that doesn't pay less then 12 bones an hour. If that's the case, it really doesn't matter what minimum wage is, does it?
What a load of crap. You crazy Saskatchewanians...you'll make up any sort of lie to get you out of Saskatchewan, won't you? :D

What a load of crap. You crazy Saskatchewanians...you'll make up any sort of lie to get you out of Saskatchewan, won't you? :D


:D That was one of Graham Bruce's arguments, too. "We NEED to reduce the minimum wage because then everyone will make more, just like in Alberta!" Y'know, somehow I think the reason we have minimum wage is because lots of people lots of places make it.

I'm just going to throw this one out there. I think the raising of minimum wage is detrimental to the overall wellbeing of a populace, and thus do not encourage the move by Alberta. By increasing minimum wage unemployment rises and corporations struggle to continue to provide cheap, efficient products for you and me. Thus stated, I will say that Alberta has made a foolish move and should not do so again.
- David Rau
Resident Rabble Rouser

I'm just going to throw this one out there. I think the raising of minimum wage is detrimental to the overall wellbeing of a populace, and thus do not encourage the move by Alberta. By increasing minimum wage unemployment rises and corporations struggle to continue to provide cheap, efficient products for you and me. Thus stated, I will say that Alberta has made a foolish move and should not do so again.
- David Rau
Resident Rabble Rouser
Don't worry. WalMart will just gouge their suppliers and producers more, and we won't even feel the heat. :(

I'm just going to throw this one out there. I think the raising of minimum wage is detrimental to the overall wellbeing of a populace, and thus do not encourage the move by Alberta. By increasing minimum wage unemployment rises and corporations struggle to continue to provide cheap, efficient products for you and me. Thus stated, I will say that Alberta has made a foolish move and should not do so again.
- David Rau
Resident Rabble Rouser
Yeah, because McDonalds profit margin is thin enough as it is. The one nearest to my house makes over a dollar of profit per meal.

And supplies have to be trucked in no matter where you live. Or brought in by train. How else do you think we get bananas from Ecuador??? :D
Its cheaper to transport the supplies as close as possible, than trying to truck it most of the way. I may be wrong, but doesn't the train only go to Edmonton. The goods have to be trucked for a few hours, which is quite expensive. He says almost everything cost more there then it does here, its way he has his car built down here.

I'm just going to throw this one out there. I think the raising of minimum wage is detrimental to the overall wellbeing of a populace, and thus do not encourage the move by Alberta. By increasing minimum wage unemployment rises and corporations struggle to continue to provide cheap, efficient products for you and me. Thus stated, I will say that Alberta has made a foolish move and should not do so again.
- David Rau
Resident Rabble Rouser


When BC reduced their minimum wage, people found themselves unable to pay for rent and food, even after taking on a second job. At the same time, the welfare program suffered a massive budget cuts. Many people became homeless or were unable to feed their children. While a raised minimum wage creates many problems, so does a lowered one. Can you propose a solution?

Don't worry. WalMart will just gouge their suppliers and producers more, and we won't even feel the heat. :(
You have WalMarts in your area? When they try to build a store here it gets protested. Or the workers unionize and people don't shop there much. The store usually ends up closing or not being that profitable.

You have WalMarts in your area? When they try to build a store here it gets protested. Or the workers unionize and people don't shop there much. The store usually ends up closing or not being that profitable.
Soon it will be nothing but WalMarts and MacDonalds.

Soon it will be nothing but WalMarts and MacDonalds.
I my area it is nothing but Timmy's Hos, McDonalds and Real Canadian Super Stores.

I my area it is nothing but Timmy's Hos, McDonalds and Real Canadian Super Stores.
All of which are American corporations...funny that!

Yes, my solution is simple. Raise minimum wage with annual inflation rates. 2 dollar jumps every 10 or so years does nothing good, but gradual increasing of minimum wage would be beneficial. Realistically, this principle could be easily applied to the welfare spending budget as well.
- David Rau
Resident Rabble Rouser

You have WalMarts in your area? When they try to build a store here it gets protested. Or the workers unionize and people don't shop there much. The store usually ends up closing or not being that profitable.

I have a fairly good idea of where you live. *stalks* :P

Yes, my solution is simple. Raise minimum wage with annual inflation rates. 2 dollar jumps every 10 or so years does nothing good, but gradual increasing of minimum wage would be beneficial. Realistically, this principle could be easily applied to the welfare spending budget as well.
- David Rau
Resident Rabble Rouser

But wouldn't it have to be raised to a level that someone could live off of first?

I have a fairly good idea of where you live. *stalks* :P
What does that have to do with anything?

But wouldn't it have to be raised to a level that someone could live off of first?
That will never happen.

Cana, what University do you go to? UBC or SFU?

Cana, what University do you go to? UBC or SFU?
More likely Tuk U :D

I don't get it...? I'm...I'm just trying to fit it! *breaks down and sobs*...and then he touched me...*dry heave*...and that's why Brazilians speak Portugese. *heave*

Cana, what University do you go to? UBC or SFU?
SFU next year. I'm working a year first. Have to save up money for tuition and textbooks.

Awesome. What field are you going into?

Awesome. What field are you going into?
Why do you need to know?

Reowr. Forget I even asked. I happen to go to the Burnaby Campus myself, noticed you were from around here, thought I'd ask -- you know it's a forum and all? People talk. Nevermind.

And what are the tangible effects of raising the minimum wage?

1. Jobs are lost, almost immediately. Jobs are lost because there are a lot of low-end jobs that simply wouldn't get even minimum wage if the MW wasn't a law. If minimum wage goes up, it becomes even less cost effective to employ someone to do such a job... as a result, jobs get consolidated or automated. Either way people end up out of work.

2. It encourages black-market economy. Why pay legal minimum wage when I can pay you $5 an hour under the table and you don't even have to claim income tax. Again, legal jobs go away in favour of black market... and if you're already black market hiring, why hire citizens when you can hire illegal immigrants for $3 cash an hour?

3. If minimum wage is high enough, there is a segment of the populace who can get comfortable rather than trying to improve themselves.

4. A higher minimum wages attract unskilled people just as high welfare attracts unemployable people. Attracting unskilled people is NEVER a good thing.

There are examples of this sort of thing across Canada. Why are there so few full-service gas stations? Because it costs too much to pay people even minimum wage to pump gas, so the stations go self-serve. Every time I have to pump my own gas at -25C I am reminded that I do this because the government demands that someone else be paid $7.45 an hour where I live (US $6.26/hr at the current exchange rate) when the job is actually worth much less than that. So, continuing this example, I freeze my bag off to pump gas so some guy who dropped out of the schools that my tax dollars provide gets to sit at home and collect welfare out of my tax dollars while watching his paid-for cable TV (it's considered a necessity on welfare here) with free medical, dental, and pharmaceutical care (the rest of us have to get insurance for the last two).

The funny thing is, I don't mind paying his welfare to top him up - I'm averse to people living in the street - but I don't see why he can't pump gas for $3 an hour and get welfare for the difference up to some minimum standard of living.

1. Jobs are lost, almost immediately. Jobs are lost because there are a lot of low-end jobs that simply wouldn't get even minimum wage if the MW wasn't a law. If minimum wage goes up, it becomes even less cost effective to employ someone to do such a job... as a result, jobs get consolidated or automated. Either way people end up out of work.

This makes no sense at all. A job is a job, and it needs to be done. Unless it was some kind of asinine indulgence on the part of the employer, regardless of how high the minimum wage is someone will continue to need to do this job (clean the floors, take out the garbage, etc)

Besides, automation isn't exactly cheap and most often it's not possible to do that. Are you going to have robots serve your food? Clean your floors? Pump your gas? That alone would cost millions to implement.

It encourages black-market economy. Why pay legal minimum wage when I can pay you $5 an hour under the table and you don't even have to claim income tax. Again, legal jobs go away in favour of black market... and if you're already black market hiring, why hire citizens when you can hire illegal immigrants for $3 cash an hour?

So, your solution is that we pay people wages that they cannot live on so that we don't have black market labour? Brilliant.

Besides, if the government started cracking down on companies and employers that hire illegally, boy, would you see the black market shut down quick. But guess what, they won't. Because one hand washes the other and the same people running the government, are the same people exploiting the poor who are willing to take any job they can get so they can maybe afford a meal.

If minimum wage is high enough, there is a segment of the populace who can get comfortable rather than trying to improve themselves.

Bull. Age old argument, and it sucks every time. Care to give me some numbers on this? Some tangiable proof? No? Okay then.

A higher minimum wages attract unskilled people just as high welfare attracts unemployable people. Attracting unskilled people is NEVER a good thing.

Have you ever had a job interview? You don't get hired because you show up, you get hired because you do the job. How is it attracting unskilled workers if they can't get the job to begin with because, as you say, they're unskilled? It's circular logic and it makes no sense.

Why are there so few full-service gas stations? Because it costs too much to pay people even minimum wage to pump gas, so the stations go self-serve.

Becuase it isn't 1950 anymore and gas isn't 30 cents a gallon anymore. The whole point of service stations was to attract people to your station because gas was insanley cheap all around. It was an expendable feature, that ran its course when the oil companies realizes that gas was skyrocketing and they could turn a buck even if the gas station conisted of a oil rig you had to tap yourself.

Every time I have to pump my own gas at -25C I am reminded that I do this because the government demands that someone else be paid $7.45 an hour where I live (US $6.26/hr at the current exchange rate) when the job is actually worth much less than that. So, continuing this example, I freeze my bag off to pump gas so some guy who dropped out of the schools that my tax dollars provide gets to sit at home and collect welfare out of my tax dollars while watching his paid-for cable TV (it's considered a necessity on welfare here) with free medical, dental, and pharmaceutical care (the rest of us have to get insurance for the last two).

Where is "here"? My family spent time on welfare and we never got free cable. And really, god forbid the government give people health coverage -- I mean it's outrages!

And by the way, you'll notice that most minimum wage labourers actually aren't Canadians, they're immigran. And in turn, most of these immigrants, are more skilled and educated than most Canadians. So, like in the case of my family, you had a doctor cleaning floors, and another University graduate doing the same. Good stuff, good stuff indeed. I suggest you lay off the cliches before you run your mouth off about the lazy underclass.

Hope Alberta likes inflation. Minimum wage does nothing but increase the money in circulation, thus causing people to have the same inflation adjusted amount they had before.

The funny thing is, I don't mind paying his welfare to top him up - I'm averse to people living in the street - but I don't see why he can't pump gas for $3 an hour and get welfare for the difference up to some minimum standard of living.
People wouldn't like that because they think they would have to pay more taxes. Which may or may not be the case.

Why are there so few full-service gas stations?Because people would rather pump gas themselves than pay someone to do it for them. Would you like to be able to pay someone to hold your groceries when you shop at save on foods too?

Hope Alberta likes inflation. Minimum wage does nothing but increase the money in circulation, thus causing people to have the same inflation adjusted amount they had before.
The thing is inflation was happenning anyways and it was putting people with jobs onto the street. Like it people have said before propose a better solution, but no one has yet.

I think it evens out...Albertans pay some of the highest income taxes in the country, plus we are one of the few provinces that charges health care premiums.

Still, our total cost of living is a lot lower than other areas, especially if you are just comparing urban cost of living. But our cities are pretty small...as they grow, no doubt the costs will also even out.

Albertans pay some of the highest income taxes in the country? How so?

I understood that it was a flat rate of 10% for every tax bracket - has this changed?

I pay closer to 30% here in BC (can't remember the exact percentage, but that does include federal as well as provincial), but then again, I make $50,000+ per year.

Edit - whoops, you've already explained that. Yes, the flat tax means that Alberta charges more tax on people with less money. Bad. And wow - that means I actually pay less tax than an Albertan who makes the same amount. By quite a bit!

Ouch - I'd hate to live in Manitoba!

Hope Alberta likes inflation. Minimum wage does nothing but increase the money in circulation, thus causing people to have the same inflation adjusted amount they had before.

Only partially true. If you were making $5.90 per hour before, does this 18% hike in the minimum wage mean you'll be buying more Ferraris than previously? If you're already making enough to already afford a Ferrari, will you suddenly start buying more milk because minimum wage increased?

Demand goes up some. Primarily for those goods that people on the bottom end of the scale were unable to purchase (or purchase regularly). So the price for them goes up. However, the price does not go up equivalent to the increase. Why? Because people who could already afford the items don't start to purchase more.

That said, those at the top end do see some of their purchasing power reduced, as items they were buying before become a little bit more expensive, and they probably aren't making any more money.

People at the bottom end of the scale take advantage of that discrepancy in reverse. The price on those items goes up some, but purchasing one at a higher price is better than not being able to purchase one at all.

It's simply another wealth redistribution scheme, but from the bottom up.

My home province of Alberta has FINALLY raised the minimum wage (http://www3.gov.ab.ca/hre/employmentstandards/about/minwage.asp) from $5.90 to $7.00!

*jealous*

*jealous*
Me, too.

This makes no sense at all. A job is a job, and it needs to be done. Unless it was some kind of asinine indulgence on the part of the employer, regardless of how high the minimum wage is someone will continue to need to do this job (clean the floors, take out the garbage, etc)

Actually it makes perfect sense. There's a lot of low-end manufacturing and similar jobs that can be automated or simply done away with if it's not cost-effective to have someone doing them.

We don't have sweat shops because it's not cost effective to run them, not because textile manufacturers are so benevolent that they don't think Canadians would do that work.

Like it or not, that sort of thing puts people out of work.

Besides, automation isn't exactly cheap and most often it's not possible to do that. Are you going to have robots serve your food? Clean your floors? Pump your gas? That alone would cost millions to implement.

So in the food industry, prices go up, which means restaurant attendance goes down, so people get laid off because they're not needed.

Floor cleaning gets done less often.

Gas stations go self-serve.

It's already been implemented, and people are already out of work. Raising the MW makes it worse.



So, your solution is that we pay people wages that they cannot live on so that we don't have black market labour? Brilliant.


What makes you think that the employment world owes you a wage you can live on? You're owed fair pay for the value of the work you do. If that happens to be enough to live on, good for you. If not, artificially inflating the price someone must pay for your work doesn't help you or anyone else.

Besides, if the government started cracking down on companies and employers that hire illegally, boy, would you see the black market shut down quick. But guess what, they won't. Because one hand washes the other and the same people running the government, are the same people exploiting the poor who are willing to take any job they can get so they can maybe afford a meal.

Although I agree in principle with the government cracking down, I don't believe your conspiracy theory.



Bull. Age old argument, and it sucks every time. Care to give me some numbers on this? Some tangiable proof? No? Okay then.


Well, I don't imagine that a bunch of these people would say, if asked, "yeah, I sit on my arse all day" so hard numbers would be impossible to come by. But, having grown up with a family on welfare for a while, in a neighbourhood of welfare and minimum wage folk, I can say with certainty that almost everyone I grew up with is still making minimum wage or on welfare today, and it's not for lack of opportunity because not all of us are in that boat any more. I have to conclude that they are comfortable, and I think society is doing them a disservice by allowing that to happen.

And I have met LOTS of people who like to do things like work for 20 weeks and get laid off to collect UI for 40 weeks or whatever it is now. The people who do this don't do it in Corporate VP jobs - they do it from minimum wage jobs because they're comfortable with the wage and the lack of work.


Have you ever had a job interview? You don't get hired because you show up, you get hired because you do the job. How is it attracting unskilled workers if they can't get the job to begin with because, as you say, they're unskilled? It's circular logic and it makes no sense.

When Ontario cut its welfare in the 90's, what happened? There was a massive migration to Alberta and British Columbia which then had the premium welfare rates in the country. Alberta was giving people one-way bus tickets to anywhere in Canada if they'd leave. BC instituted residency rules making poeple have to live there for months before they could get welfare. Read about it in old newspapers, I'm sure you can find it online.

With Alberta raising its MW, it's quite reasonable to expect that the new MW plus the favourable tax structure and generous benefits in Alberta will bring another migration of sponges to soak up what they can.


Becuase it isn't 1950 anymore and gas isn't 30 cents a gallon anymore. The whole point of service stations was to attract people to your station because gas was insanley cheap all around. It was an expendable feature, that ran its course when the oil companies realizes that gas was skyrocketing and they could turn a buck even if the gas station conisted of a oil rig you had to tap yourself.

No, it's done because a guy pumping gas doesn't do enough work to justify his wage (minimum wage, plus whatever benefits that are required by law). It's cheaper to put in self-service pumps and have 1 guy watch over 20 pumps as opposed to paying 3 or 4 guys to staff a gas station.

Until very recently, gas was just as cheap in inflation adjusted dollars as it was in the 50's so your argument doesn't hold up.


Where is "here"? My family spent time on welfare and we never got free cable. And really, god forbid the government give people health coverage -- I mean it's outrages!

Unless it's changed recently Ottawa gives basic cable TV or consideres it a necessity of life for calculating a person's expenses for welfare. Although when on welfare, my family also had cable in Niagara Falls. One of the local Fidonet people here (back when Fidonet was the thing) had more computers than I did, all paid for by welfare. Must be nice.

And by the way, you'll notice that most minimum wage labourers actually aren't Canadians, they're immigran. And in turn, most of these immigrants, are more skilled and educated than most Canadians. So, like in the case of my family, you had a doctor cleaning floors, and another University graduate doing the same. Good stuff, good stuff indeed. I suggest you lay off the cliches before you run your mouth off about the lazy underclass.

I call bullshit on the immigrants being more skilled and better educated. Yes, I've met a nuclear engineer from Somalia (seriously) driving my cab. Well guess what, Mogadishu U. and Somalia aren't really recognized as world leaders in the nuclear engineering field, so it's probably fair that people be a little skeptical of his qualifications here. I'm pretty sure guys like that are quite rare, however, but they just make good news when their story gets out. Educated Indians, Chinese and Russians seem to have no problem finding work in their field, I wonder why that is?

And yes, a lot of the "underclass" in Canada is lazy. Not just plain lazy, but legendary slack bastards. We have people on welfare 3 or more generations deep. I've dealt with people who, around the end of august, will go punch someone out so they can go to trial in October and get 5 months in the local jail because it beats working, you get a bed, save money on clothes, and get 3 meals a day. I've personally known people who work minimum wage because they're happy with the money and consider the job disposable because they can get UI anyway.

Are they all lazy? Of course not. Lots of them work hard and work their way out of the rut (I did, maybe you did if you're posting here), but lots of them are just sponges and raising the minimum wage only helps them sponge more.