NationStates Jolt Archive

Fighting unseen enemy creates psychological pressure on troops
By Tom Lasseter, Knight Ridder Newspapers
Fri Aug 26, 7:32 PM ET

HIT, Iraq - The inability of U.S. forces to hold ground in Anbar province in western Iraq, and the cat and mouse chase that ensues, has put the Marines and soldiers there under intense physical and psychological pressure.

The sun raises temperatures to 115 degrees most days, insurgents stage ambushes daily then melt into the civilian population and American troops in Anbar find themselves in a house of mirrors in which they don't speak the language and can't tell friend from foe.

Most Marines and soldiers in Anbar live behind massive concrete barriers, bales of concertina wire and perimeters guarded by sniper towers and tanks.

Despite their overwhelming military might, they must watch every alleyway for snipers and each patch of road for mines or bombs, which can send balls of flame through their vehicles. That happened earlier this month south of Haditha, when an explosion killed 14 Marines in an amphibious assault vehicle.

Officers worry about the enemy while trying to make sure their men don't crack under the pressure.

"I tell the guys not to lose their humanity over here, because it's easy to do," said Marine Capt. James Haunty, 27, of Columbus, Ohio. "I tell them not to turn into Col. Kurtz."

Haunty was referring to a character in Joseph Conrad's novella, "Heart of Darkness." It became the basis for the Vietnam War movie "Apocalypse Now," in which Kurtz has a mental breakdown and murders suspected Vietnamese double agents.

Asked for an example of the kind of pressure that could cause Marines to crack, Haunty talked about the results of a car bomb: "I've picked up pieces of a friend, a Marine. I don't ever want to see that s--- again."

Sitting with his men at a morning meeting in the town of Hit, Marine Maj. Nicholas Visconti said he was up late the night before, unable to sleep in the heat, when a call came from a patrol requesting permission to shoot an Iraqi man. The man, the patrol leader said, was out past curfew and appeared to be talking on a cell phone. Visconti intervened and told the patrol leader not to shoot.

Looking at his young lieutenants and sergeants, Visconti said, "If he's a bad guy, if he's running the (car bomb) factory, I'll put the gun in his mouth and kill him myself ... but first let's get a f------ security check."

With a worried look, Visconti, 35, of Brookfield, Conn., continued: "There's killing bad guys and there's murdering civilians. Let's do the first and not the second. Murderers we're not, OK?"

Chief Warrant Officer Mike Niezgoda nodded in agreement. The next day, a roadside bomb knocked Niezgoda unconscious and broke his arm.

"It's a lot like it was in Vietnam, when the VC's (Viet Cong) would come out and pretend to be your friends," said Marine Lance Cpl. Jared Vidler, 23, of Syracuse, N.Y. "You're fighting an enemy on his home ground and you don't know who's who."

After a recent meeting with local tribal sheiks in Fallujah, Marine Lt. Col. Jim Haldeman walked to the back of the room and pulled a pack of cigarettes from his pocket.

The gathering was supposed to be an exercise in civic empowerment but quickly degenerated into the Iraqis demanding that they get identification cards designating them as sheiks, which would bar local security forces from arresting them on the streets.

"All of these guys are f------ muj," Haldeman said, using the Arabic term for "holy warriors," mujahedeen, which American troops frequently use to describe the insurgents.

Haldeman took a deep drag from his cigarette.

"I've never been so nervous around a group of men," he said. Haldeman, 50, of West Kingston, R.I., later added that he was sure that a lot of the men in the crowd would have slit his throat if they'd had the opportunity.

Walking down an alley in Hit a few days earlier, stepping over pools of sewage, Lance Cpl. Greg Allen had watched the Marines around him. They were picking through garbage, tugging on wires and kicking boxes, looking for bombs and mines and hoping that if they found one it wouldn't go off.

"They (insurgents) are doing a hell of a job fighting this war. They know they can't take us head on but they can do a lot of damage with bombs," said Allen, 19, of Syracuse, N.Y. "There's no one out here to fight."

The men in Allen's squad stopped at a grocery to buy water and sodas. As they walked away, several of them wondered if they'd just given money to an insurgent sympathizer.

On a recent patrol through southern Ramadi, the capital of Anbar province, Sgt. 1st Class Tom Coffey, 37, of Burlington, Vt., looked through the thick bulletproof windows of his Humvee. Children were peeking at him from behind a half-closed garage door.

"I'd love to play soccer with them but we'd have to stage gun trucks and then we'd still end up being a large soft target," he said.

After he went back to the base to pick up some supplies, a call came: A roadside bomb had hit one of his Bradley Fighting Vehicles.

A description of a vehicle possibly driven by the triggerman came over the radio. "The guy's already gone," Coffey said. "We're just p------ in the wind now."

Later, he and his men walked along the Euphrates River, looking for a metal stake that an informant said marked a weapons cache. The sun burned, and palm trees and crops formed a lush green swath along the riverbank.

"There's been reports of a .50 (caliber) sniper rifle out there. Maybe they called this in just to get us out here and take a shot. A .50-cal would go straight through our (body armor) plates," Coffey said, looking at the buildings across the river. "Why do I feel like I'm in a f------ Vietnam movie?"
I could state the obvious, but it is obvious now isn't?

Those soldiers are clearly bleeding heart liberals, judging by their reprehensible comparisons of Iraq to Vietnam. I bet they all voted Democrat. :rolleyes:

For the irony-free: :p

Those soldiers are clearly bleeding heart liberals, judging by their reprehensible comparisons of Iraq to Vietnam. I bet they all voted Democrat. :rolleyes:

For the irony-free: :p

I would change it to ignorant comparison to Vietnam. They all chose to be there. Sorry guys, you really thought you were getting a free college education? Moreso, I hope you didn't sign up for the 'free' t-shirt;)

Who wants to bet that Corneliu or Metasel-however you spell his name will show up sooner or later with "evidence" that the whole of Iraq is under control and these "pinko laberuls" (mispellings intentional) are clearly misguided?

I'd have listed Eut, but he's got his sentence to serve.

Who wants to bet that Corneliu or Metasel-however you spell his name will show up sooner or later with "evidence" that the whole of Iraq is under control and these "pinko laberuls" (mispellings intentional) are clearly misguided?

I'd have listed Eut, but he's got his sentence to serve.

Eut on ban?

Eut on ban?
Again?

I would change it to ignorant comparison to Vietnam. They all chose to be there. Sorry guys, you really thought you were getting a free college education? Moreso, I hope you didn't sign up for the 'free' t-shirt;)


Today's conservative. Support the war. Not the troops.

Eut on ban?

1 week forumban. He had gotten to the point where he started saying people had attitude/mental problems for disagreeing with him on authority issues.

1 week forumban. He had gotten to the point where he started saying people had attitude/mental problems for disagreeing with him on authority issues.
Damn, the guy has his good moments, but he really needs to chill. :(

1 week forumban. He had gotten to the point where he started saying people had attitude/mental problems for disagreeing with him on authority issues.

Which thread was that? I bet one he started.

Damn, the guy has his good moments, but he really needs to chill. :(


He used to understand that people will often disagree with his views, but recently he's got worse and worse from what I've seen. He does need to chill sometimes :(

He used to understand that people will often disagree with his views, but recently he's got worse and worse from what I've seen. He does need to chill sometimes :(

I think it's flashbacks. Just goes crazy sometimes.

I think it was that protestors outside the hospital thing that did him in.

I think it was that protestors outside the hospital thing that did him in.

Which thread was it? Is it still up?

I think it was that protestors outside the hospital thing that did him in.

If the subject is women, Eut is all right...just the kind of dirty old man I hope one day to be. If the topic has anything to do with not toeing the party line on the war...forget it.

Back on topic, I find it laughable that War supporters think that protest of the War has more to do with morale than the bungling that went on with the post-war planning.

Yes, you need to say more. You need to say why military personnel choose to be there of their own free will.

Yeah, that article certainly paints a picture of a hellish nightmare. There's no question that the foe is formidable and the situation is dangerous. But their work is noble and most of the soldiers understand that they're part of a larger equation.

The situation is nothing like Vietnam first and formost because we currently have an all-volunteer army. Everyone who is over there signed page after page after page of waiver telling them what they're getting into--but they still chose to do it. In the Vietnam conflict, the military would pluck our sons out of their schools and send them to a remote corner of the Earth against their free will. Big difference.

My question for anyone who thinks it's exceptionally horrible over there for our soldiers, why have we seen military reenlistment increase since the war in Iraq started? Why are more soldiers choosing to stay enlisted in the miliary once their obligation to keep fighting expires if they're trapped in this awful place?

Here is some of my supporting documentation:

http://www.military.com/MilitaryCareers/Content/0,14556,MPDC_CareerNews_Navy_Enlisted_061104-2,00.html

http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,Defensewatch_102904_Rumsfeld,00.html

http://www.strykernews.com/archives/2005/06/27/reenlistment_rates_exceed_army_estimates.html

The answer is that, unlike the nay-sayers, the soldiers believe in what they're doing. I'm sorry that the liberals in this country want their guy in the white house (not that John Kerry would have done anything differently--he voted to support the war, he said he wouldn't withdraw the troops early, but complained that we didn't have an "exit strategy" which to the best of my understanding means a timeline--so basically, his criticism is that Bush said we'll leave when the job is done, not specifically July 20, 2007 or whatever). But don't hide behind the guise of saying that you support the troops when you dishonor them by ignoring their noble intentions and the desires of their heart to portray them as weak and helpless victims who are tools of the evil Bush administration. (I mean, heck... even the title of this thead "out of the mouth of babes" portrays them as weak and helpless).

Edit: Also notice what's NOT in that article. There's not a soldier expressing that it's not worth it. There's not a soldier lamenting that he enlisted. Everyone knows that war is hard. This article concentrates on how war is hard. That doesn't change the fact that those brave men are dedicated to their mission of bringing peace and stability to a region plagued by oppression for over a generation.

Just a thought: Where will the Free Will Argument be if a draft is initiated? I mean, I know it will go the way of WMD but what will replace it?

Just a thought: Where will the Free Will Argument be if a draft is initiated? I mean, I know it will go the way of WMD but what will replace it?

Well, according to the Democrats in 2004, we should have had a draft by now... afterall, they told us that we can't keep this up without a draft, and we're keeping it up...

Edit: It'll go to the same place the It's So Horrible And Pointless argument will go when a free, safe, and politically stable Iraq is established.

Well, according to the Democrats in 2004, we should have had a draft by now... afterall, they told us that we can't keep this up without a draft, and we're keeping it up...
Yeah. Good luck with that.

Yeah. Good luck with that.

When the war ends and there's still no draft, are you prepared to admit that you overreacted? Are you prepared to admit that you were wrong?

When the war ends and there's still no draft, are you prepared to admit that you overreacted? Are you prepared to admit that you were wrong?
Wrong about what? My question was hypothetical. And when will the war end? With Iraq? Is the War in Iraq the end of the War on Terror?

Just a thought: Where will the Free Will Argument be if a draft is initiated? I mean, I know it will go the way of WMD but what will replace it?

Probably by nationalism and patriotism on the extreme level. That assumes a draft is instituted to begin with.

EDIT: And a war against the concept of "terror" cannot be won. Ergo, it will go on forever. A good ploy to trick people into supporting your agenda is to use the emotional aspect. Much like a Nigerian money scam I should think.

Which thread was it? Is it still up?

Just look for threads which he started. There's one that more or less goes "And so they've started it again" or something like that.

Probably by nationalism and patriotism on the extreme level. That assumes a draft is instituted to begin with.

EDIT: And a war against the concept of "terror" cannot be won. Ergo, it will go on forever. A good ploy to trick people into supporting your agenda is to use the emotional aspect. Much like a Nigerian money scam I should think.
Gee. Perpetual war. That's like - forever... I guess I AM on the wrong side. Everyone fight til the bad guys are dead!
It really does get silly, doesn't it?

These things are getting easier to debunk all the time...

Oh please spare us your ego. :rolleyes:

The situation is nothing like Vietnam first and formost because we currently have an all-volunteer army. Everyone who is over there signed page after page after page of waiver telling them what they're getting into--but they still chose to do it. In the Vietnam conflict, the military would pluck our sons out of their schools and send them to a remote corner of the Earth against their free will. Big difference.

You are totally speaking past the issue here. This has nothing to do with volunteering. The comparisons to Vietnam, in the article and elsewhere, have been as to the tactics employed by the enemy.

The volunteer aspect of the military doesn't have anything to do with the tactics of the enemy and how they affect the morale of the troops.

It would do good for anyone who is against the war to keep track of the pro-war posters in this thread. Next time there is a question about disrespecting the troops the responces here will put it to rest.

A war on an abstraction is just as pointless as a war on a noun.

A war on an abstraction is just as pointless as a war on a noun.

Precisely. Who are you going to fight? Websters Dictionary?

These things are getting easier to debunk all the time... So... you're saying that it's eaiser to debunk what an actual tooper said? I'm confused here.

The situation is nothing like Vietnam first and formost because we currently have an all-volunteer army. Everyone who is over there signed page after page after page of waiver telling them what they're getting into--but they still chose to do it. In the Vietnam conflict, the military would pluck our sons out of their schools and send them to a remote corner of the Earth against their free will. Big difference.
Does the military actually have waivers? That's a new one for me. In any case, I feel that, more like the trooper in the article, we're in an area where the people don't like us. Now, that is normal for war, it IS what war is all about of course. But in Iraq, like Vietnam, you can't tell who is friendly, or is slightly friendly, who hate you and isn't going to do anything about it, and who hates you and is planning to set up an IED in the road. And THIS is taking a toll of the men and women over there.

Exactly as the article said.

My question for anyone who thinks it's exceptionally horrible over there for our soldiers, why have we seen military reenlistment increase since the war in Iraq started? Why are more soldiers choosing to stay enlisted in the miliary once their obligation to keep fighting expires if they're trapped in this awful place?
If that is the case, why does the Army, National Guard, and Marines all report that they will in all likelyhood fail their quotas for the year? Why does Rumfield have to keep issuing stop loss orders? Who are we calling up the individual ready reserve?

Is this truely a place people want to stay in?

But don't hide behind the guise of saying that you support the troops when you dishonor them by ignoring their noble intentions and the desires of their heart to portray them as weak and helpless victims who are tools of the evil Bush administration. (I mean, heck... even the title of this thead "out of the mouth of babes" portrays them as weak and helpless).
Out of the Mouths of Babes comes the Truth. I assume you DO know your classics, right?

We are often told by supporters of this war that the troops are doing ok, there's no problems, this ISN'T Vietnam (which it isn't, Vietnam is Vietnam, Iraq is Iraq, there are simularities). I do not protray them as weak and helpless tools. I seak to show that this is a damn hard and dirty war. You say protesters ignore the reality of pulling out, I say supporters are blind, they still think our men and women over there are being showered with rose petals, and tis the 'liberal' media that shows the occasional bad thing.

Don't seek to say, it's ok because what they are doing is good. It isn't, these are people's lives, and people who will be coming home with damage, mental and physical. And for what?

Is it worth it? We'll see, or rather, history will judge what he have done today and will do tomorrow. But take off your blinders and note that yes, this IS like Vietnam in that our enemy had learned how to fight us in a way we cannot win with all our military might, and the people coming home will have to face that for the rest of their lives.

Out of the mouths of babes comes the truth.

It isn't, these are people's lives, and people who will be coming home with damage, mental and physical. And for what?

This is so true.

You had a couple of questions.

So... you're saying that it's eaiser to debunk what an actual tooper said? I'm confused here.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that you want to be confused here. I referred to the notion that our soldiers are trapped in a pointless war. Does that clear it up?


Does the military actually have waivers? That's a new one for me.

I don't know what country you're from, but here in the U.S., enlistees have to sign all sorts of paperwork, including waviers of liability, contracts explicitly detailing the terms of their military commitment, acknowledgements that they read and understood the waivers of liability and contracts that explicitly detail the terms of their military commitment, etc. So, yes. :)

In any case, I feel that, more like the trooper in the article, we're in an area where the people don't like us. Now, that is normal for war, it IS what war is all about of course. But in Iraq, like Vietnam, you can't tell who is friendly, or is slightly friendly, who hate you and isn't going to do anything about it, and who hates you and is planning to set up an IED in the road.

I don't think that we're in disagreement on this. I guess that when people conjure up the image of Vietnam, it brings to most people's mind the "quagmire" situation, wherein the soldiers were forced to be there and it wasn't clear to anyone why we were there in the first place other than to generate business for military supply corporations. For that reason, I disagree with making that comparison. But yes, the soldiers have to be careful who they trust over there.


And THIS is taking a toll of the men and women over there.

Yes, it's hard. But as I pointed out, they're exercising their own free will and choosing to reenlist at elevated rates. The work of police and firefighters is emotionally and physically demanding, but that doesn't change the fact that those people are typically proud of the work they do and love their work.

No matter how you slice it, all of the soldiers knew what they were getting into and are rightfully proud of their work.


If that is the case, why does the Army, National Guard, and Marines all report that they will in all likelyhood fail their quotas for the year? Why does Rumfield have to keep issuing stop loss orders? Who are we calling up the individual ready reserve?

The problem is not with reenlistment, because those numbers are doing great. The problem is with recruitment--getting new people to enlist. The reason that's a problem is because of the skewed news reports, such as the one leading this thread, that refuse to find any positive purpose with the Iraq experience. It's creating this image that our troops hate it there and basically "if you enlist, you'll regret it". What I'm saying and backing up with hard evidence is that the troops don't actually see it that way.

Is this truely a place people want to stay in?

This was exactly my point----there's this image in the media over here that there can't possibly be any reason why soldiers would be ok with being over there. If this was really how it was, why is reenlistment doing so well?

Out of the Mouths of Babes comes the Truth. I assume you DO know your classics, right?

First, just as a person grievance :), it's pretty insulting how many people in NS quote the Bible but have never read it and have no idea what they're talking about. It's not that incredibly long of a book; it wouldn't kill anyone to take a day or two and read it.. I'm not saying that you've never read the Bible and that you have no idea what you're talking about, but you've never read the Bible and you have no idea what you're talking about. ;)


We are often told by supporters of this war that the troops are doing ok, there's no problems, this ISN'T Vietnam (which it isn't, Vietnam is Vietnam, Iraq is Iraq, there are simularities). I do not protray them as weak and helpless tools. I seak to show that this is a damn hard and dirty war. You say protesters ignore the reality of pulling out, I say supporters are blind, they still think our men and women over there are being showered with rose petals, and tis the 'liberal' media that shows the occasional bad thing.

Fair enough. I can only speak for myself when I say that it's frustrating when I see people opposing the war for what I perceive to be no real reason other than that they want a Democrat in the White House. I also find it frustrating when people speak of the troops like they're mindless or helpless victims. I don't like it because I believe that the troops are so brave and noble that they are willing to subject themselves to extremely undesireable environments and possibly die so the spineless opportunists can live the remainder of their worthless lives with less fear.

Don't seek to say, it's ok because what they are doing is good. It isn't, these are people's lives, and people who will be coming home with damage, mental and physical.

It's ok because what they're doing is good. Just because something has a price, that doesn't mean it's not worth having.

They choose to be there; don't pretend that you're supporting them by dishonoring them with skewed assertions of their purpose, motivation, and ability.

Is it worth it? We'll see, or rather, history will judge what he have done today and will do tomorrow.

History will judge the results, yes.

But take off your blinders and note that yes, this IS like Vietnam in that our enemy had learned how to fight us in a way we cannot win with all our military might, and the people coming home will have to face that for the rest of their lives.

That's pretty similar to what people who could only find bad things to say about U.S. involvement in World War II said about post WWII Germany.

And when a free, stable and prosperous Iraq is established, I'm sure that there's something people will nonetheless be able to point and say, "see here? look what happened! this is exactly what we were afraid of!"

I wish I was able to enlist right now :( and join their ranks...Grr, if only I could finish college faster. :mad: :headbang:

To the Halls of Montezuma..........

Save some hadjis for me boys :D :sniper:

And when a free, stable and prosperous Iraq is established, I'm sure that there's something people will nonetheless be able to point and say, "see here? look what happened! this is exactly what we were afraid of!"

I'm curious what evidence you have of Iraq heading in the direction of beeing free, stable, and prosperous?

I'm curious what evidence you have of Iraq heading in the direction of beeing free, stable, and prosperous?

I'm happy to answer this question, but first answer me this:

How different is what's going on in Iraq from what happened in post-war Germany? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/953812/posts

EDIT: Since I know how people can be in this forum, I'll just go ahead and include a portion of the above-mentioned reference:

Lessons of History, Continued: From a review of "Werewolf! The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946" ;


What did the Werewolf do? They sniped. They mined roads. They poured sand into the gas tanks of jeeps. (Sugar was in short supply, no doubt.) They were especially feared for the "decapitation wires" they strung across roads. They poisoned food stocks and liquor. (The Russians had the biggest problem with this.) They committed arson, though perhaps less than they are credited with: every unexplained fire or explosion associated with a military installation tended to be blamed on the Werwolf. These activities slackened off within a few months of the capitulation on May 7, though incidents were reported as late as 1947.
...
Goebbels especially grasped the possibility that guerrilla war could be a political process as well as a military strategy. It was largely through his influence that the Werwolf assumed something of the aspect of a terrorist organization. Where it could, it tried to prevent individuals and communities from surrendering, and it assassinated civil officials who cooperated with the Allies. Few Germans welcomed these activities, but something else that Goebbels grasped was that terror might serve where popularity was absent. By his estimate, only 10% to 15% of the German population were potential supporters for a truly revolutionary movement. His goal was to use the Werwolf to activate that potential. With the help of the radical elite, the occupiers could be provoked into savage reprisals that would win over the mass of the people to Neo-Nazism, a term that came into use in April 1945.
And from an article on Minutemen of the Third Reich.(history of the Nazi Werewolf guerilla movement)
The Werewolves specialised in ambushes and sniping, and took the lives of many Allied and Soviet soldiers and officers -- perhaps even that of the first Soviet commandant of Berlin, General N.E. Berzarin, who was rumoured to have been waylaid in Charlottenburg during an incident in June 1945. Buildings housing Allied and Soviet staffs were favourite targets for Werewolf bombings; an explosion in the Bremen police headquarters, also in June 1945, killed five Americans and thirty-nine Germans. Techniques for harassing the occupiers were given widespread publicity through Werewolf leaflets and radio propaganda, and long after May 1945 the sabotage methods promoted by the Werewolves were still being used against the occupying powers.
Although the Werewolves originally limited themselves to guerrilla warfare with the invading armies, they soon began to undertake scorched-earth measures and vigilante actions against German `collaborators' or `defeatists'. They damaged Germany's economic infrastructure, already battered by Allied bombing and ground fighting, and tried to prevent anything of value from falling into enemy hands. Attempts to blow up factories, power plants or waterworks occasionally provoked melees between Werewolves and desperate German workers trying to save the physical basis of their employment, particularly in the Ruhr and Upper Silesia.
Several sprees of vandalism through stocks of art and antiques, stored by the Berlin Museum in a flak tower at Friedrichshain, caused millions of dollars worth of damage and cultural losses of inestimable value. In addition, vigilante attacks caused the deaths of a number of small-town mayors and, in late March 1945, a Werewolf paratroop squad assassinated the Lord Mayor of Aachen, Dr Franz Oppenhoff, probably the most prominent German statesman to have emerged in the occupied fringes over the winter of 1944-45.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that you want to be confused here. I referred to the notion that our soldiers are trapped in a pointless war. Does that clear it up?
MUCH better, thank you.

I don't know what country you're from, but here in the U.S., enlistees have to sign all sorts of paperwork, including waviers of liability, contracts explicitly detailing the terms of their military commitment, acknowledgements that they read and understood the waivers of liability and contracts that explicitly detail the terms of their military commitment, etc. So, yes. :)
That is slightly different from signing a liability waver when ordered to Iraq, but I'll conceed the point.

Oh, for the record, I am American, I just work and live in Japan.

First, just as a person grievance :), it's pretty insulting how many people in NS quote the Bible but have never read it and have no idea what they're talking about. It's not that incredibly long of a book; it wouldn't kill anyone to take a day or two and read it.. I'm not saying that you've never read the Bible and that you have no idea what you're talking about, but you've never read the Bible and you have no idea what you're talking about. ;)
News to me, I've read that particular book backwards and forwards (and even side to side) numerous times. ;)

Fair enough. I can only speak for myself when I say that it's frustrating when I see people opposing the war for what I perceive to be no real reason other than that they want a Democrat in the White House. I also find it frustrating when people speak of the troops like they're mindless or helpless victims. I don't like it because I believe that the troops are so brave and noble that they are willing to subject themselves to extremely undesireable environments and possibly die so the spineless opportunists can live the remainder of their worthless lives with less fear.
I don't care WHO is in the damn White House as long as the policies inacted are in the best intrest of the United States and the world, and said intrests are logically presented and backed up. I feel neither is the case here. Nor did I fear Saddam's Iraq, I DO fear the terrorists that the war was spawned.

They have struck since it started.

It's ok because what they're doing is good. Just because something has a price, that doesn't mean it's not worth having.
That is where we disagree then, I do not believe that what has happened is good, but we shall see.

They choose to be there; don't pretend that you're supporting them by dishonoring them with skewed assertions of their purpose, motivation, and ability. Dishonor? Where have I dishonored them? And where have I acerted a skewed perception of their purpose, motovation, and ability?

I have enough friends and family over there fighting right now, I do get enough emails to get an idea about how they, not the whole damn Army, but they are feeling right now.

And when a free, stable and prosperous Iraq is established, I'm sure that there's something people will nonetheless be able to point and say, "see here? look what happened! this is exactly what we were afraid of!"
IF, not when, IF. Like I said, we shall see.

I'm happy to answer this question, but first answer me this:

How different is what's going on in Iraq from what happened in post-war Germany? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/953812/posts
Hmm... sounds very familar, almost like an urban legend that snopes.com exposed...
http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/quagmire.asp

And Slate.com ran an article on:
http://www.slate.msn.com/id/2087768/

I wish I was able to enlist right now :( and join their ranks...Grr, if only I could finish college faster. :mad: :headbang:

To the Halls of Montezuma..........

Save some hadjis for me boys :D :sniper:

Is that a joke? A subtle sarcastic jab at the so-called pro-military people who clamor for war, but then don't join up? If so it's a good one, otherwise...

You can take a break from college and enlist at any time. Are you hoping to be an officer? I suppose if I had to join the military I'd do the same, but you can enlist, serve a tour and then join the officer academy. Works just as well as college. You'd be a Mustang. Unless of course you're just full of it, and don't really want to join and are hoping that the whole Iraq debacle is going to be finished by the time you graduate and you can kick the sand and say "aw, shucks fella's, I wish y'all had kept the war goin' a little longer so I coulda' joined ya' fightin' them thar ter'rists."

I'm curious what evidence you have of Iraq heading in the direction of beeing free, stable, and prosperous?

Pretty soon, there won't be enough people left to fight, enough of a functioning government to oppress anyone, and noone to share the oil with. :D

[QUOTE=NERVUN]Hmm... sounds very familar, almost like an urban legend that snopes.com exposed...[QUOTE]

I don't like being wrong, but I hate being misled. Thank you for bringing this information to my attention.

What's the source I want to know that before I render an opinion.

I could state the obvious, but it is obvious now isn't?