NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0504730.htm

The pope in an attempt to make peace with Jews has blamed the holocaust on neo-pagans. In the 20th century, in the darkest period of German and European history, an insane racist ideology, born of neopaganism, gave rise to the attempt, planned and systematically carried out by the regime, to exterminate European Jewry," he said.

Way to wriggle out of the responsibility - after the Vatican ignored what was happening and this Pope was actually in the Hitler Youth we now find it was the Pagans what done it.

And people ask me why I'm not keen on Christianity!

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0504730.htm

The pope in an attempt to make peace with Jews has blamed the holocaust on neo-pagans.

Way to wriggle out of the responsibility - after the Vatican ignored what was happening and this Pope was actually in the Hitler Youth we now find it was the Pagans what done it.

And people ask me why I'm not keen on Christianity!

Keep in mind that it was LAW to be in the Nazi Youth during Hitler's turn at the reins.

The Vatican ignored what was happening because it had no army.

Hmm, neopagan... Has that term been used before?

Hmm, neopagan... Has that term been used before?

Certainly.

Google web search:
Results 1 - 10 of about 213,000 for neo-pagan.
Results 1 - 10 of about 62,200 for neopagan.

Usenet:
Results 1 - 10 of 21,800 for neo-pagan
Results 1 - 10 of 10,900 for neopagan.

Many historians compare the Nazis' beliefs to be a throwback to ancient Germanic paganism (only in part, of course) - Norman Davies in "Europe", for instance.

The Vatican ignored what was happening because it had no army.

But I beieve that the Vatican supported the Nazis when they first came into power and the current Pope refuses to open the Vatican archives so nobody can know for sure. It certainly seems that they have something to hide.

But I beieve that the Vatican supported the Nazis when they first came into power and the current Pope refuses to open the Vatican archives so nobody can know for sure. It certainly seems that they have something to hide.

And you also must remember that Popes change, and with them so do their policies and points of view- one cannot blame the current Vatican admin for the wrongdoings of a previous admin. Its like blaming Clinton for Vietnam :p

Or Schröder for the holocaust.

And you also must remember that Popes change, and with them so do their policies and points of view- one cannot blame the current Vatican admin for the wrongdoings of a previous admin. Its like blaming Clinton for Vietnam :p
of course, we can still blame him for putting the blame on "neo-pagans" though can't we.
The nazis picked and choose(d) their beliefs. they were hunting for the spear of destiny, holy grail and the arc which are all very christian concepts so lets blame it on their Neo-Christian ideas too eh?

But when their points of view change they should be able to admit it and say they don't agree with things that happened in the past, not try to cover it up or put the blame on someone else.

I'm an occultist, and this nazi sympathyzer of a pope is trying to get out of responsibility by mud-slinging us. The Thule Group - Thulegeschellshaft - that became the NAZI party was indeed an occultism society, but "neo-pagans" as a choice of words is his way to try and blame the NORMAL occultists: Rosicrucians, White Fraternity and so on - for what Thule did. Bearing in mind that Vatican is a separate state precisely in exchange for shutting up about what Mussolini did. Hitler used Christianity. May this idiotic, senile joke of a pope die a slow and painful death. I wonder who this idiot will blame for the Inquisition that killed people in the holy name of God. The occultists, too, that were burned? They "deserved" it, now?

hey, i'm by no means defending what the Vatican did- i'm merely saying you can't blame the current Pope for the actions of previous ones. As for the neo-paganism.... its a theory that nazism fits into alright- it doesn't give an EXCUSE mind, but it does corollate with the themes running through nazism especially as the war drifted on and they became more desperate (hence the spear of destiny lark).

Bearing in mind that Vatican is a separate state precisely in exchange for shutting up about what Mussolini did.
1. it isn't the same people
2. Mussolini wasn't too bad until he allied with hitler and by then there was nothing they could have done
3. They didn't oppose Mussolini to begin with because of fear of communism and other reasons.

You're not going to get much sense out of Benedict, so stop trying.

I pegged this guy as a reactionary fool back in the days when I was still Catholic and he was still Cardinal Ratzinger. He's a throwback to the 19th century Catholic Church (which itself was a throwback to the 15th century.)

I said ten years ago that if Ratzinger was ever elected Pope, I'd abandon the Catholic Church forever. The only thing that stopped me is that I had already left the Church before he was elected Pope. With me heading in one direction and the Catholic Church sliding rapidly downward in the other direction, I didn't really have much choice.

:rolleyes:

1. it isn't the same people
2. Mussolini wasn't too bad until he allied with hitler and by then there was nothing they could have done
3. They didn't oppose Mussolini to begin with because of fear of communism and other reasons.

Regardless, since Herr Ratzlinger was so cavalier about blaming the group I'm a part of, I'll be more than happy to rub this support, as well as the Inquisition, in his wrinkled, old, hopefully-soon-dead face.

But I beieve that the Vatican supported the Nazis when they first came into power and the current Pope refuses to open the Vatican archives so nobody can know for sure. It certainly seems that they have something to hide.
Remember Churchill - hero of Britain - calling Mussolini "that admirable Italian gentleman"?
Many people were supportive of the Nazis… even Chamberlain thought they were doing the right thing about the Treaty of Versailles. Easy to look back with hindsight.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0504730.htm

The pope in an attempt to make peace with Jews has blamed the holocaust on neo-pagans.

Way to wriggle out of the responsibility - after the Vatican ignored what was happening and this Pope was actually in the Hitler Youth we now find it was the Pagans what done it.

And people ask me why I'm not keen on Christianity!
No need to worry about the Catholic Church any more. They're just ornery because their religion is dying. Sure, they're trying to take as many other people with them as possible, and if there were any justice in the world they would be on trial for crimes against humanity, but at the end of the day it's hard to stay mad at them because they're just so durn pathetic. They long for the days when they ruled the world, and we refer to those days as "The Dark Ages."

I'm a Lutheran, which means i'm strongly opposing the Catholic Church. But, anyone can trash talk the Pope, but what position of power are they in? I bet none of yall have ever been the leader of millions of ppl. And besides, if the Catholic Church were to admit that past administrators made a mistake, how much faith would its people have in its further desicions, none at all.

No need to worry about the Catholic Church any more. They're just ornery because their religion is dying. Sure, they're trying to take as many other people with them as possible, and if there were any justice in the world they would be on trial for crimes against humanity, but at the end of the day it's hard to stay mad at them because they're just so durn pathetic. They long for the days when they ruled the world, and we refer to those days as "The Dark Ages."
Damn! Quick, Father, they're on to our plot!

I'm curious though… what crimes against humanity, exactly? Don't say "the Crusades", because on that basis we'd try Schröder for war crimes.

No need to worry about the Catholic Church any more. They're just ornery because their religion is dying. Sure, they're trying to take as many other people with them as possible, and if there were any justice in the world they would be on trial for crimes against humanity, but at the end of the day it's hard to stay mad at them because they're just so durn pathetic. They long for the days when they ruled the world, and we refer to those days as "The Dark Ages."


You really are a eurocentrist aren't you? You just don't even see South America, Central America, Africa and Asia on your radar screen at all? There are more Catholics today (and I'm not one of them) then there ever has been in the history of the world... and you call it a dying religion? :eek:

Silly.

And besides, if the Catholic Church were to admit that past administrators made a mistake, how much faith would its people have in its further desicions, none at all.

You just explained the thought process of all dictatorships. So the Church is one. Makes sense, being run, as it is, by a Nazi piece of Hitler Youth flesh unfit to be called a human being.

You really are a eurocentrist aren't you? You just don't even see South America, Central America and Asia on your radar screen at all? There are more Catholics today (and I'm not one of them) then there ever has been in the history of the world... and you call it a dying religion? :eek:

Silly.
Ah, I knew I would touch a nerve with that :).

Actually, it's South and Central America that most concern me, but nice theory of yours. The funny thing is that there are more members of EVERY current religion than there ever have been, because there have never been so many people on the planet before...that's not a real good measure of a religion's success, see. The thing about Catholicism is that the PROPORTION of power it holds is dropping like a rock, and Latin America and Asia are just at a different stage than the "Western" world. Because the timeline for Catholicism started later in these areas of the world, the progression is also offset by a certain amount. But, interestingly, they're actually proceeding faster than the Western world did, hopefully because they are learning from our mistakes.

Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against individual Catholics, other than that they are supporting an organization that is currently sponsoring mass-murder. It's the Church itself that is reprehensible, and I have the utmost pity for the vulnerable populations being targetted by that dying leviathan.

You really are a eurocentrist aren't you? You just don't even see South America, Central America, Africa and Asia on your radar screen at all? There are more Catholics today (and I'm not one of them) then there ever has been in the history of the world... and you call it a dying religion? :eek:

Silly.
That's the problem. There are a great many catholics who will now equate Paganism with the Nazi's becuase the "voice of god" has said it is so.

Pagans are (mostly) peace loving, nature based, inoffensive people (like me)
but now we are responsible for the Holacaust.

The stupid old Pope should appologise to us.

You just explained the thought process of all dictatorships. So the Church is one. Makes sense, being run, as it is, by a Nazi piece of Hitler Youth flesh unfit to be called a human being.


I think yall are just mad because you don't like something personal or spiritual about the Pope. But, if i remember correctly, when Hitler took over, it didn't leave much of a choice for the people. Either you were a Hitler youth, or you were dead.

That's the problem. There are a great many catholics who will now equate Paganism with the Nazi's becuase the "voice of god" has said it is so.

Pagans are (mostly) peace loving, nature based, inoffensive people (like me)
but now we are responsible for the Holacaust.

The stupid old Pope should appologise to us.

But he won't, because, as far as he knows, he's perfect. So I'll settle for him dying of a neurodegenerative disease.

I think yall are just mad because you don't like something personal or spiritual about the Pope. But, if i remember correctly, when Hitler took over, it didn't leave much of a choice for the people. Either you were a Hitler youth, or you were dead.

He simply BLAMED THE GROUP I'M A PART OF FOR THE HOLOCAUST!!! OF COURSE I'M MAD AT HIM!!!

I think yall are just mad because you don't like something personal or spiritual about the Pope. But, if i remember correctly, when Hitler took over, it didn't leave much of a choice for the people. Either you were a Hitler youth, or you were dead.
Even ignoring his dubious past how can he be forgiven for blaming an inocent group for the crimes of the Nazis?

Mis-guided christians already see us as devil worshippers now the Jews are told we're mass murders.

It stinks and so does the Pope

He simply BLAMED THE GROUP I'M A PART OF FOR THE HOLOCAUST!!! OF COURSE I'M MAD AT HIM!!!

Thank you!

of course, we can still blame him for putting the blame on "neo-pagans" though can't we.
The nazis picked and choose(d) their beliefs. they were hunting for the spear of destiny, holy grail and the arc which are all very christian concepts so lets blame it on their Neo-Christian ideas too eh?

The Grail and Spear are Christian Mythos; however the Arc can only be considered "Christian" through descent from Jewish history.

Nazi ideology was a mix of neo-paganism; and an smattering of heretical christian ideas...... AKA it was a "Cult". A Religion centered around a single charismatic leader. And not an orthodox christian belief.

Damn! Quick, Father, they're on to our plot!

I'm curious though… what crimes against humanity, exactly? Don't say "the Crusades", because on that basis we'd try Schröder for war crimes.
While the disgraceful history of the Church should be enough for anybody to think twice, I find their current sins far more relavent. I don't think I have to go into detail about the way the Church helps child molesters escape prosecution and find fresh victims, so I'll leave that one lay.

Specifically, in this case, I'm refering to the Church's mass murder in Africa, Asia, and South America. The Church is deliberately spreading lies about the AIDS epidemic, lies that are directly contributing to the infection of millions of people. These lies have been well documented by the WHO and several global AIDS organizations, and include:

-telling people that latex condoms allow the AIDS virus to pass through tiny pores in the latex (which is completely false)
-that having sex within marriage will protect you from AIDS (which it won't, if either party is infected already)
-that married couples should not use condoms even if one party is infected, encouraging HIV-infected men to pass the virus to their wives
-that transmition of AIDS from a mother to a child can be prevented by prayer but not by using medicines that AIDS relief organizations make available (because those organizations also provide condoms, which are Satan's penis-baggies)

*snip*

With that line of thinking, that the world goes through cycles, the Europeans have pretty much dropped all socially shared religion and faith in the 'family' just like the Roman's did for a few generation before their fall...

And you say the cycles are speeding up, sooooo, let's see here, if my calculations are right, Europe should fall to the various war tribes, say, next tuesday? ;)

Then the Catholics will be back? :p

Even ignoring his dubious past how can he be forgiven for blaming an inocent group for the crimes of the Nazis?

Mis-guided christians already see us as devil worshippers now the Jews are told we're mass murders.

It stinks and so does the Pope


#1. No actual christian believes pagans are devil-worsippers, any religion that is not Christian is considered false and does not exist.

#2. I don't know what's goin on with the Pope, but unless he can prove it...i think he should apologize to the pagans.

I'm an occultist, and this nazi sympathyzer of a pope is trying to get out of responsibility by mud-slinging us. The Thule Group - Thulegeschellshaft - that became the NAZI party was indeed an occultism society, but "neo-pagans" as a choice of words is his way to try and blame the NORMAL occultists: Rosicrucians, White Fraternity and so on - for what Thule did. Bearing in mind that Vatican is a separate state precisely in exchange for shutting up about what Mussolini did. Hitler used Christianity. May this idiotic, senile joke of a pope die a slow and painful death. I wonder who this idiot will blame for the Inquisition that killed people in the holy name of God. The occultists, too, that were burned? They "deserved" it, now?

Many Christians were interned in concentration camps right along with homosexuals, gypsies; and of course, the Jews.

While the disgraceful history of the Church should be enough for anybody to think twice, I find their current sins far more relavent. I don't think I have to go into detail about the way the Church helps child molesters escape prosecution and find fresh victims, so I'll leave that one lay.

Specifically, in this case, I'm refering to the Church's mass murder in Africa, Asia, and South America. The Church is deliberately spreading lies about the AIDS epidemic, lies that are directly contributing to the infection of millions of people. These lies have been well documented by the WHO and several global AIDS organizations, and include:

-telling people that latex condoms allow the AIDS virus to pass through tiny pores in the latex (which is completely false)
-that having sex within marriage will protect you from AIDS (which it won't, if either party is infected already)
-that married couples should not use condoms even if one party is infected, encouraging HIV-infected men to pass the virus to their wives
-that transmition of AIDS from a mother to a child can be prevented by prayer but not by using medicines that AIDS relief organizations make available (because those organizations also provide condoms, which are Satan's penis-baggies)

How mercifully Christian, ain't it? If they stop spreading lies about us, we'll stop telling the truth about them.

While the disgraceful history of the Church should be enough for anybody to think twice, I find their current sins far more relavent. I don't think I have to go into detail about the way the Church helps child molesters escape prosecution and find fresh victims, so I'll leave that one lay.

Specifically, in this case, I'm refering to the Church's mass murder in Africa, Asia, and South America. The Church is deliberately spreading lies about the AIDS epidemic, lies that are directly contributing to the infection of millions of people. These lies have been well documented by the WHO and several global AIDS organizations, and include:

-telling people that latex condoms allow the AIDS virus to pass through tiny pores in the latex (which is completely false)
-that having sex within marriage will protect you from AIDS (which it won't, if either party is infected already)
-that married couples should not use condoms even if one party is infected, encouraging HIV-infected men to pass the virus to their wives
-that transmition of AIDS from a mother to a child can be prevented by prayer but not by using medicines that AIDS relief organizations make available (because those organizations also provide condoms, which are Satan's penis-baggies)

yes, you're 100% correct but a tad of topic. The church has a long history of this crap. It really is just more evidence that they just spout stupid rubbish and don't even consider the effects.

As has been stated here - Nazism was a cult so he should say that and not blame a lot of innocent Pagans. Doesn't the Vatican have a policy department and a speakwriter department and a stupid thing to say checking department or do they all just "trust in god"?

Let us not damn a bunch rather than a single. The Catholic church has always hid things from public view and acted in questionable ways, certainly unChristianly. To find the more proper Christians we must look on the other side, to the Protestants. There the people who work for the Church are more often actually religious people who don't go and have sex or drink while in the Catholic church you've got the child abusers and such that should be put to the flame.

This is kinda off-topic, but the Catholics are NOT a "Christian" religion, they started the Christian religion, but since they are horribly incompetent, the actual christians, Lutherans, Baptists, Evangelical, etc., broke away from them. The only thing Christians have in common with Catholics is the belief in some kind of omnipotent being.

#1. No actual christian believes pagans are devil-worsippers, any religion that is not Christian is considered false and does not exist.



Lost me there. I can't be a member of a religion that both worships the devil and fails to exist.

Of course in reality neither is true but explain your thinking please ;)

Let us not damn a bunch rather than a single. The Catholic church has always hid things from public view and acted in questionable ways, certainly unChristianly. To find the more proper Christians we must look on the other side, to the Protestants. There the people who work for the Church are more often actually religious people who don't go and have sex or drink while in the Catholic church you've got the child abusers and such that should be put to the flame.

The Protestants are responsible for, among other things, Salem and trying to make the most powerful nation in the world a theocracy. So there.

The Christian faith, i'll include Catholicism in this, believes that any religion that doesn't have faith in God, not Allah, not w/e else some grps worship, is a "false religion". And in the eyes of the Christian church, "false religions" do not exist, which means that they are atheist so they are non-religious (in the eyes of the church).

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0504730.htm

The pope in an attempt to make peace with Jews has blamed the holocaust on neo-pagans.

Way to wriggle out of the responsibility - after the Vatican ignored what was happening and this Pope was actually in the Hitler Youth we now find it was the Pagans what done it.

And people ask me why I'm not keen on Christianity!
LOL!!! I always knew them pagens were the start of it all! And to think here I was blaming the chruch.

Well, at least they're coherent: They rape kids, but they do it WITHOUT CONDOMS!

(And no, I don't believe this in reality, but I'll keep slandering them till I get the Nazi Pope's apology.)

This is kinda off-topic, but the Catholics are NOT a "Christian" religion, they started the Christian religion, but since they are horribly incompetent, the actual christians, Lutherans, Baptists, Evangelical, etc., broke away from them. The only thing Christians have in common with Catholics is the belief in some kind of omnipotent being.

You know, I keep forgetting that there are people who still believe this nonsense. But I shouldn't be surprised; all it requires is complete ignorance of history and theology.

A little research will demonstrate that the Catholic Church is indeed Christian, and has much in common with all of the other Christian faiths. Go do your homework.

:rolleyes:

You know, I keep forgetting that there are people who still believe this nonsense. But I shouldn't be surprised; all it requires is complete ignorance of history and theology.

A little research will demonstrate that the Catholic Church is indeed Christian, and has much in common with all of the other Christian faiths. Go do your homework.

:rolleyes:
Hey from where I'm standing they're all in the same boat. Some bailing and some pissing into the bottom.

But ALL Christians are the same to me they just seem silly bickering about the fine detail. Oh, and they all think I belong to a devil worshipping religion that doesn't exist.

Hey from where I'm standing they're all in the same boat. Some bailing and some pissing into the bottom.

But ALL Christians are the same to me they just seem silly bickering about the fine detail. Oh, and they all think I belong to a devil worshipping religion that doesn't exist.

Certainly looks different for those like us, that are in front of the oncoming train, rather than inside it, eh?

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0504730.htm

The pope in an attempt to make peace with Jews has blamed the holocaust on neo-pagans.

Way to wriggle out of the responsibility - after the Vatican ignored what was happening and this Pope was actually in the Hitler Youth we now find it was the Pagans what done it.

And people ask me why I'm not keen on Christianity!
The Nazi's were pagans. They weren't christians nor were they Catholics.

Look, can we stop calling him a Nazi Pope? I mean, it's plain illogical… surely the Church should have been abolished by him already, since Nazis hated Catholicism?

But I beieve that the Vatican supported the Nazis when they first came into power and the current Pope refuses to open the Vatican archives so nobody can know for sure. It certainly seems that they have something to hide.
So did everyone else. Even the Jews supported Hitler when he first came to power. Till he started killing them that is.

Look, can we stop calling him a Nazi Pope? I mean, it's plain illogical… surely the Church should have been abolished by him already, since Nazis hated Catholicism?

I will when he takes his dick off the kid's mouth and apologizes to MY GROUP for calling US nazi.

I will when he takes his dick off the kid's mouth and apologizes to MY GROUP for calling US nazi.
Christians were responsible for the Crusades.
Christians were responsible for the Inquisition.
Christians were responsible for the Salem witch-hunts.
The Pope acknowledges this and so do I. Does this mean I think all Christians are berserk crusaders, or all Muslims are terrorists, or all Jews zionist racists? No.

Christians were responsible for the Crusades.
Christians were responsible for the Inquisition.
Christians were responsible for the Salem witch-hunts.
The Pope acknowledges this and so do I. Does this mean I think all Christians are berserk crusaders, or all Muslims are terrorists, or all Jews zionist racists? No.

Pagans WEREN'T responsible for Nazism. Period. If anything, we would be TARGETED by it.

Let us not damn a bunch rather than a single. The Catholic church has always hid things from public view and acted in questionable ways, certainly unChristianly. To find the more proper Christians we must look on the other side, to the Protestants. There the people who work for the Church are more often actually religious people who don't go and have sex or drink while in the Catholic church you've got the child abusers and such that should be put to the flame.

Yes, those who blame neo-pagans not for the Holocaust, but for the 9/11 attacks instead. Or who call for the assassination of foreign leaders on videotape and then lie about it a week later, yup, much more moral and religious.

The problem isn't Catholicism, or even protestantism. The problem is organized religion. Organized religion was only ever invented as a means of controling large multi-cultural empires by giving them a common identity. In America we get that from sit-coms and organized sports. To try to get it from large religions too will only serve to corrupt its leaders.

The whole purpose behind protestantism is that anyone who picks up the Bible can read and understand it for himself. The very existence of a James Dobbson, Pat Robertson, or Jerry Falwell who uses his religious authority to exert political influence, contradicts the whole purpose of protestantism and renders, not just their personalities, but their entire existences hypocritical

The Nazi's were pagans. They weren't christians nor were they Catholics.
There are plenty of acceptable terms which cover what the Nazis were.
Agnostic maybe,
Athiestic? Cultists? Fucking loonies?

By deliberately using the phrase "neo-pagans" he links a modern group to the Nazis. He's supposed to be intelligent and infalable and yet with one fell swoop he does more damge to Paganism than any people who are trying to damage us.

Is this a case of two of those middle eastern, dead arab religions ganging up on the new versions of traditional religion that they feel (rightly) threatened by?

People were responsible for the Crusades, and used Christianity as an excuse
People were responsible for the Inquisition, and used CHristianity as an excuse
People were responsible for the Salem witch-hunts, and used Christianity as an excuse
The Pope/Roman Catholocism does not equate all of Christianity, it is only representative of the RC church. "Don't care for Christianity" all you want, but to use the Pope and Catholocism as an excuse is probably not a good excuse, it shows your lack of intelligence.

People were responsible for the Crusades, and used Christianity as an excuse
People were responsible for the Inquisition, and used CHristianity as an excuse
People were responsible for the Salem witch-hunts, and used Christianity as an excuse
The Pope/Roman Catholocism does not equate all of Christianity, it is only representative of the RC church. "Don't care for Christianity" all you want, but to use the Pope and Catholocism as an excuse is probably not a good excuse, it shows your lack of intelligence.
You have read the 3 previous pages of this thread haven't you?

People were responsible for the Crusades, and used Christianity as an excuse
People were responsible for the Inquisition, and used CHristianity as an excuse
People were responsible for the Salem witch-hunts, and used Christianity as an excuse
The Pope/Roman Catholocism does not equate all of Christianity, it is only representative of the RC church. "Don't care for Christianity" all you want, but to use the Pope and Catholocism as an excuse is probably not a good excuse, it shows your lack of intelligence.

I agree, but I'll keep on badmouthing that slanderous pedophile of a pope until he apologizes for badmouthing ME.

I think is just a problem of definition. Paganism is every non-christian religion. To call any contemporary religion such is abusive. So its not a surprise that someone who doesnt know the meaning of the word gets too offended.

BTW Nazis were pagans with church ties (they shared a common enemy, communism)

I think is just a problem of definition. Paganism is every non-christian religion. To call any contemporary religion such is abusive. So its not a surprise that someone who doesnt know the meaning of the word gets too offended.

BTW Nazis were pagans with church ties (they shared a common enemy, communism)

By doing that, he tried to say that "non-Christian = causers of holocaust". That doesn't help his case.

I think is just a problem of definition. Paganism is every non-christian religion. To call any contemporary religion such is abusive. So its not a surprise that someone who doesnt know the meaning of the word gets too offended.

BTW Nazis were pagans with church ties (they shared a common enemy, communism)
Paganism is every non Christian religion? Nice elephant sized ego. :rolleyes:
Please see http://www.paganfed.org/aboutpf.htm
for definitions which don't have anything to do with Chritianity or its strange ego.
Pagans were here well before christians so how can we be NOT them.
The word is from the Roman Latin Paganii meaning country dwellers. Please don't tell us what we know.

He is saying that lack of faith and an alliance of some priests with nazis caused it.

In reality the ascension of nazism can be considered a religious phenomenum with hysteria and the cult of the personality (pagan) by opposition to a church that said that you should only worship god. If parts of the church were silent with it and conivent then that is the problem that should be explained by their paganism or lack of faith.

Dont get me wrong I am not a christian or anything.

And you also must remember that Popes change, and with them so do their policies and points of view- one cannot blame the current Vatican admin for the wrongdoings of a previous admin. Its like blaming Clinton for Vietnam :p

Or blaming neopaganism for the Nazis.

You have read the 3 previous pages of this thread haven't you? Yes, I have. My point was that Naziism was indeed Neo-Paganic. Nazis were neo-pagans, but neo-pagans are not Nazis. So, his use of "neo-pagan" doesn't mean all Wiccans and others.

Yes, I have. My point was that Naziism was indeed Neo-Paganic. Nazis were neo-pagans, but neo-pagans are not Nazis. So, his use of "neo-pagan" doesn't mean all Wiccans and others.

He attempts to mean exactly that. Nazism wasn't neo-paganic, it had Christian mythos all over it. The Thule Society called themselves occultists, but I bet I could beat them all by myself - and I'm not that good.

He is saying that lack of faith and an alliance of some priests with nazis caused it.

In reality the ascension of nazism can be considered a religious phenomenum with hysteria and the cult of the personality (pagan) by opposition to a church that said that you should only worship god. If parts of the church were silent with it and conivent then that is the problem that should be explained by their paganism or lack of faith.

Dont get me wrong I am not a christian or anything.
You are talking rubbish. Read my previous post.
Pagan does not mean what you seem to think. Paganii (previous post)
Lack of faith does NOT equal paganism. Celtic Pagans, Romans, Greeks etc etc all had faith and believed firmly in their Gods.

The Pope specifically said Neo-Pagan linking Nazis to Neo-pagan groups across Europe. This was deliberate. No slip of the toungue. An attempt to tie middle eastern religion together in opposition to the threat from new (Neo) Pagans.

We are a very fast growing group and they feel under threat.

I think is just a problem of definition. Paganism is every non-christian religion. To call any contemporary religion such is abusive. So its not a surprise that someone who doesnt know the meaning of the word gets too offended.

BTW Nazis were pagans with church ties (they shared a common enemy, communism)

Erm... No. That's not actually true. The word 'pagan' is derived from the Latin 'paganus' or 'paganum, meaning "someone who lives in a rural district' ie. a rustic.

Christians later took the word and used it to mean something like 'anyone who is not a Christian', (very similar to the 'heathen') but they didn't invent it, nor do they have exclusive rights to it.

Today, the word 'pagan' actually refers to a specific group of people, though the group is fairly diverse and there are very few things different kinds of 'pagan' have in common.

Hitler didn't really like the Church, so he tried to start his own religon (with very limited success). If you take the word 'pagan' as meaning 'non-Christian' then this religon could conceivably be referred to as 'pagan', but in the modern world where the word now has a different meaning, calling Hitler's attempted cult 'pagan' is rather offensive to modern pagans (like calling those "Jesus wants you to worship me, give me all your money and let me screw your kids" cults 'Christian' is offensive to Christians).

Calling the Nazi's as a whole, "pagans" is ridiculous. There may very well have been some pagans involved in Nazism, but there a whole lot of Christians and even a few secretive Jews who were also a part of it.

And the pope saying that the 'neo-pagans' were responsible for it all in this day and age when, unless he is a completely ignorant fool, it is well known that the term refers so a specific group of people, can only be deliberately intended as inflammable.

There are plenty of acceptable terms which cover what the Nazis were.
Agnostic maybe,
Athiestic? Cultists? Fucking loonies?

By deliberately using the phrase "neo-pagans" he links a modern group to the Nazis. He's supposed to be intelligent and infalable and yet with one fell swoop he does more damge to Paganism than any people who are trying to damage us.

Is this a case of two of those middle eastern, dead arab religions ganging up on the new versions of traditional religion that they feel (rightly) threatened by?
The phrase "neo-pagans" is not new. It not limited to our current time period. It's been in use since at least around 1900. There were a great many neo pagan groups behind the Nazi's rise to power.

As for the church ignoring what they did at the time, you have to try and put their shoes on and walking in them for a while.

1. What were they going to do? They were surrounded first by Mussolini (a total moron who gave his own country to Hitler) then by the Nazi's themselves. Remember that Hitler was not exactly on good terms with the pope. Except that Hitler had an army, he had hit squads, and he had the SS. The Vatican had no army. They had and still have no special ops forces.

2. A century earlier, during the Napoleonic Wars, the Vatican (and the Pope) were stripped of all political power. They had no power to tell any government what to do. This opened the way for the Nazis to take over in Germany.

3. When Mussolini granted the Vatican independent status, he said that they were not allowed to say anything about politics cause if they did, he would revoke their independence.

4. Even today, the Vatican is still not a true independent state. As when Mussolini granted them autonomy back in the day, the Italian government claims soverignty over the Vatican. (Basically the Italian government claims the right to tell the Pope what to do, though they don't excercise that power and generally leave the Vatican to do what it wants).

Wow.

I'm thoroughly impressed with the level of discourse around here.

:rolleyes:

He attempts to mean exactly that. Nazism wasn't neo-paganic, it had Christian mythos all over it. The Thule Society called themselves occultists, but I bet I could beat them all by myself - and I'm not that good.
Of course it had Christian mythos all over it. Nazi ideology borrowed from whatever was convenient, and it borrowed heavily from Germanic paganism. I really can't see the Pope calling all Pagans Nazis. He just said that Naziism was a Neo pagan ideology. It's not totally neopagan, but it did borrow heavily from that, and saying that does not equal saying that Neopaganism is Naziism, any more than saying that Christianity leads to the Inquisition.

Erm... No. That's not actually true. The word 'pagan' is derived from the Latin 'paganus' or 'paganum, meaning "someone who lives in a rural district' ie. a rustic.

Christians later took the word and used it to mean something like 'anyone who is not a Christian', (very similar to the 'heathen') but they didn't invent it, nor do they have exclusive rights to it.

Today, the word 'pagan' actually refers to a specific group of people, though the group is fairly diverse and there are very few things different kinds of 'pagan' have in common.

Hitler didn't really like the Church, so he tried to start his own religon (with very limited success). If you take the word 'pagan' as meaning 'non-Christian' then this religon could conceivably be referred to as 'pagan', but in the modern world where the word now has a different meaning, calling Hitler's attempted cult 'pagan' is rather offensive to modern pagans (like calling those "Jesus wants you to worship me, give me all your money and let me screw your kids" cults 'Christian' is offensive to Christians).

Calling the Nazi's as a whole, "pagans" is ridiculous. There may very well have been some pagans involved in Nazism, but there a whole lot of Christians and even a few secretive Jews who were also a part of it.

And the pope saying that the 'neo-pagans' were responsible for it all in this day and age when, unless he is a completely ignorant fool, it is well known that the term refers so a specific group of people, can only be deliberately intended as inflammable.

*Hands Revasser a big cookie and plenty of milk.*

Again, if he can spread lies about us, I'll be more than happy about describing very graphically the things that he does with 8-year olds in his Sacred Bedroom (but without condoms).

I agree, but I'll keep on badmouthing that slanderous pedophile of a pope until he apologizes for badmouthing ME.

The National Socialist Party in Germany under Adolf Hitler attempted to define Asatru (neopaganism via Germanic/Norse heathenism) as the approved religion of the Nazi party by grafting parts of the religion onto the Nazi racist beliefs. This ended after World War II and the fall of Nazism. Some neo-Nazi groups still babble about it and pretend to continue the historical but non-ancient practices.

This isn’t related to the Asatru of Iceland today (for example) as they are trying to follow their own ancient religion by reviving it from the ancient records and recordings they have, entirely unrelated to the Nazis. In that fold, there is a strong anti-racist, anti-Nazi position in the Scandinavian Asatru followers, simply and understandably because the don’t want to be confused with the Nazi’s. Obviously.

Now, with a clear understanding of what is historical (Nazism neopaganism) and current fact (Asatru neopaganism today), and with this in mind, the Pope’s definition is not wrong. He did not insult you. But you have gone beyond the pale in insulting him though this whole thread and it’s about time you STFU with the vile and unjustifiable offensive tripe.

dont worry an dont hate christans. I am a christan and HATE the pope. He is always wrong! I wiss John paul and hope this guy is gone soon! Dont hate christians because most dont like this new pope

Of course it had Christian mythos all over it. Nazi ideology borrowed from whatever was convenient, and it borrowed heavily from Germanic paganism. I really can't see the Pope calling all Pagans Nazis. He just said that Naziism was a Neo pagan ideology. It's not totally neopagan, but it did borrow heavily from that, and saying that does not equal saying that Neopaganism is Naziism, any more than saying that Christianity leads to the Inquisition.

Again: He hand-picked the word. He could say "a movement from the Thulegeschellshaft", he could say "an evil, pseudo-religious movement", or ANY OTHER CHOICE of words. He chose that because he knew that the more ignorant people would attack us over it.

Yes, I have. My point was that Naziism was indeed Neo-Paganic. Nazis were neo-pagans, but neo-pagans are not Nazis. So, his use of "neo-pagan" doesn't mean all Wiccans and others.
Then I'm sorry. I mis-understood you.

pa·gan Audio pronunciation of "pagan" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pgn)
n.

1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2. One who has no religion.
3. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.
5. A Neo-Pagan.


adj.

1. Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
2. Professing no religion; heathen.
3. Neo-Pagan.

These were the definitions I found for the word. I knew the word came from peasants and their older cults. The word came to mean nowadays people who dont follow the ways of the main monotheistic cults and more often heathen.

Nazis were heathens. Their qualification as pagans fits since they created a heathen religion. Assuming that everyone who belongs to a small part of a broader group become offended when somemone tells them that someone they hate also belongs to it.

It makes me remember this story:

In the classroom someone throws a paper airplane at the teacher when she is not looking.

-You are all grounded because you are throwing papers at me.

Then suddenly one of the students sues the teacher because she offended him since he had not thrown the paper.

-telling people that latex condoms allow the AIDS virus to pass through tiny pores in the latex (which is completely false)
-that having sex within marriage will protect you from AIDS (which it won't, if either party is infected already)
-that married couples should not use condoms even if one party is infected, encouraging HIV-infected men to pass the virus to their wives
-that transmition of AIDS from a mother to a child can be prevented by prayer but not by using medicines that AIDS relief organizations make available (because those organizations also provide condoms, which are Satan's penis-baggies)
Could someone give me a credible source on this? Its not that I don't believe you but I want to throw it in someone's face.

This all (the neopaganism thing) is part of the popes secret plan to kill all other religions. A while ago at world youth day he dissed protestantism by saying that a single person's moral framework is fragile without a church to back it up.

Whats next? Buddhism?

This all (the neopaganism thing) is part of the popes secret plan to kill all other religions. A while ago at world youth day he dissed protestantism by saying that a single person's moral framework is fragile without a church to back it up.

Whats next? Buddhism?

Omgosh, really? Who would ever have thought that we would ever see the day when the Pope would advocate Catholicism over other religions? I am dismayed, I am beside myself, no one could have seen this one coming :eek:


Only a catholic Pope would support such views! :rolleyes:

The National Socialist Party in Germany under Adolf Hitler attempted to define Asatru (neopaganism via Germanic/Norse heathenism) as the approved religion of the Nazi party by grafting parts of the religion onto the Nazi racist beliefs. This ended after World War II and the fall of Nazism. Some neo-Nazi groups still babble about it and pretend to continue the historical but non-ancient practices.

This isn’t related to the Asatru of Iceland today (for example) as they are trying to follow their own ancient religion by reviving it from the ancient records and recordings they have, entirely unrelated to the Nazis. In that fold, there is a strong anti-racist, anti-Nazi position in the Scandinavian Asatru followers, simply and understandably because the don’t want to be confused with the Nazi’s. Obviously.

Now, with a clear understanding of what is historical (Nazism neopaganism) and current fact (Asatru neopaganism today), and with this in mind, the Pope’s definition is not wrong. He did not insult you. But you have gone beyond the pale in insulting him though this whole thread and it’s about time you STFU with the vile and unjustifiable offensive tripe.

Again: He picked the choice of words fully knowing what people would see in it. He DID lie about neopaganism in the simple sense that Thule was by no means a pagan group by nowadays definition. He knows what neopaganism means NOW. I'll insult him until he apologizes for that statement, with the simple difference that some people in church actually DID molest children. And that he was actually part of the Hitler Youth (so he also should know better about the History he was part of). Vile and unjustifiable offensive tripe is what he took part in the second he - yes, purposefully - put the Nazis and the Neo-pagans in the same level. Should I remind him that he's a German? That, unlike ACTUAL neo-paganists, it was ACTUAL Germans that took part in WWII? Should I remind him that he joined HITLER YOUTH? That the group he's the head of started the INQUISITION?

The phrase "neo-pagans" is not new. It not limited to our current time period. It's been in use since at least around 1900. There were a great many neo pagan groups behind the Nazi's rise to power.

As for the church ignoring what they did at the time, you have to try and put their shoes on and walking in them for a while.

1. What were they going to do? They were surrounded first by Mussolini (a total moron who gave his own country to Hitler) then by the Nazi's themselves. Remember that Hitler was not exactly on good terms with the pope. Except that Hitler had an army, he had hit squads, and he had the SS. The Vatican had no army. They had and still have no special ops forces.

2. A century earlier, during the Napoleonic Wars, the Vatican (and the Pope) were stripped of all political power. They had no power to tell any government what to do. This opened the way for the Nazis to take over in Germany.

3. When Mussolini granted the Vatican independent status, he said that they were not allowed to say anything about politics cause if they did, he would revoke their independence.

4. Even today, the Vatican is still not a true independent state. As when Mussolini granted them autonomy back in the day, the Italian government claims soverignty over the Vatican. (Basically the Italian government claims the right to tell the Pope what to do, though they don't excercise that power and generally leave the Vatican to do what it wants).


I'd like to answer your post in detail but Revasser does it better than I could in post 68.

I will say, however, that he (or his church) chose the words he used and they should realise that we are inevitably offended by him linking us to Hitler.

Oh , and a great many nepagan groups?.
I doubt there were that many Pagan groups in the early 20th century. One or two prominent ones but most were Christians playing Druids or Wiccan from what I know.

[QUOTE=Lusitaniah]pa·gan Audio pronunciation of "pagan" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pgn)
n.

1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2. One who has no religion.
3. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.
5. A Neo-Pagan.


adj.

1. Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
2. Professing no religion; heathen.
3. Neo-Pagan.

/QUOTE]

That definition is so foolish it even contradicts it's self.
The Pope is fully aware of the modern usage of neo-pagan and of the effects of his stupid statement.

He is saying that lack of faith and an alliance of some priests with nazis caused it.

In reality the ascension of nazism can be considered a religious phenomenum with hysteria and the cult of the personality (pagan) by opposition to a church that said that you should only worship god. If parts of the church were silent with it and conivent then that is the problem that should be explained by their paganism or lack of faith.

Dont get me wrong I am not a christian or anything.

Naziism was not a cult of personality based on paganism. It was a cult of personality based on Hitler and anti-semitism.

The overwhelming majority of Nazi's right up to the end of the war were Christians. The occultists comprised a tiny secret elite minority within the party. And even they were Christians when they came to power, only developing their occultist ideas later. And as for those who think that protestantism is the answer, the writings of Martin Luther were tremendously influential in forming Nazi beliefs.

Again: He picked the choice of words fully knowing what people would see in it. He DID lie about neopaganism in the simple sense that Thule was by no means a pagan group by nowadays definition. He knows what neopaganism means NOW. I'll insult him until he apologizes for that statement, with the simple difference that some people in church actually DID molest children. And that he was actually part of the Hitler Youth (so he also should know better about the History he was part of). Vile and unjustifiable offensive tripe is what he took part in the second he - yes, purposefully - put the Nazis and the Neo-pagans in the same level. Should I remind him that he's a German? That, unlike ACTUAL neo-paganists, it was ACTUAL Germans that took part in WWII? Should I remind him that he joined HITLER YOUTH? That the group he's the head of started the INQUISITION?
Yes, he was part of the Hitler Youth. So… if he's a Nazi, why does the Church still exist?
Are you trying to say that he advocates that Nazis and Neo-Pagans are indistinguishable? Saying that Nazi ideology was Neo-Pagan is NOT that same as saying that Neo-Paganism is Naziism. It's the same basis as Catholicism being Christianity, but Christianity not being Catholic.

I doubt there were that many Pagan groups in the early 20th century. One or two prominent ones but most were Christians playing Druids or Wiccan from what I know.

There were actually a great many pagan societies in Germany after WWI. But they were essentially hippies. Nudists, nature worshippers, folk singers, and such. Hitler and his ilk hated them because they weren't a nationalist or military movement. They were a pacifist movement.

They were a fairly natural reaction to a war that reduced vast tracts of European land to a wasteland. The term "no-man's land" hardly does justice to a patch of land in which even the bugs and worms were unable to survive.

Yes, he was part of the Hitler Youth. So… if he's a Nazi, why does the Church still exist?
Are you trying to say that he advocates that Nazis and Neo-Pagans are indistinguishable? Saying that Nazi ideology was Neo-Pagan is NOT that same as saying that Neo-Paganism is Naziism. It's the same basis as Catholicism being Christianity, but Christianity not being Catholic.

Not only Nazis weren't neo-pagans, he also knew fully well what choice of words to make.

I for once had to search to find out what religion could neopaganism be

I was aware of some celtic and wiccan cults but by no way we would call them here in portugal pagan. Probably we would call them the nature worshipping cults.

I just think it was not wise to call a religion neopaganism since it involves all of the prejudice the word paganism has in our languages (primitive, superstitious)

I really dont think the pope was aiming at nature worshippers. It just loses any reasonabilty (what do nazis have to do with druids and nature loving? no logical or even illogical connection). If he wanted to aim at something he could say that nazism is the fault of Darwinism since they believed in controlling natural selection. It would be an easier way to make a fool out of himself. The most logical aim he was having with it was probably to mean that nazism was caused because ppl strayed from god (it goes well with his previous writings).

I believe he is not even aware of neopaganism as a religion.

I for once had to search to find out what religion could neopaganism be

I was aware of some celtic and wiccan cults but by no way we would call them here in portugal pagan. Probably we would call them the nature worshipping cults.

I just think it was not wise to call a religion neopaganism since it involves all of the prejudice the word paganism has in our languages (primitive, superstitious)

I really dont think the pope was aiming at nature worshippers. It just loses any reasonabilty (what do nazis have to do with druids and nature loving? no logical or even illogical connection). If he wanted to aim at something he could say that nazism is the fault of Darwinism since they believed in controlling natural selection. It would be an easier way to make a fool out of himself. The most logical aim he was having with it was probably to mean that nazism was caused because ppl strayed from god (it goes well with his previous writings).

I believe he is not even aware of neopaganism as a religion.
Yeah, that would fit. I don't think he meant to actually attack neopagans. He doesn't agree with their beliefs at all, certainly, but that doesn't entail attacking them. He doesn't strike me as a hate-spewing rhetoric demon, judging by his previous writings.

It wasn't a wise thing to say, though. But it's a mistake anyone could have made, especially since many historians refer to Naziism as neopagan… how come no one's having a go at Norman Davies?

Again: He picked the choice of words fully knowing what people would see in it. He DID lie about neopaganism in the simple sense that Thule was by no means a pagan group by nowadays definition. He knows what neopaganism means NOW.
Yeah because over 80 year old bishops always keep up with the modern meanings of things! [/sarcasm]

I'll insult him until he apologizes for that statement, with the simple difference that some people in church actually DID molest children. And that he was actually part of the Hitler Youth (so he also should know better about the History he was part of). Vile and unjustifiable offensive tripe is what he took part in the second he - yes, purposefully - put the Nazis and the Neo-pagans in the same level. Should I remind him that he's a German? That, unlike ACTUAL neo-paganists, it was ACTUAL Germans that took part in WWII? Should I remind him that he joined HITLER YOUTH? That the group he's the head of started the INQUISITION?ooh goody you're discriminating against germans as well as catholics now.

Yeah because over 80 year old bishops always keep up with the modern meanings of things! [/sarcasm]
ooh goody you're discriminating against germans as well as catholics now.

I'm not. I'm pointing out that, if he wants to attack us for things our groups never did, I'll be glad to point out things that groups he's part of ACTUALLY DID. And if he's too senile to know what a word means, he shouldn't be at the top of a big organization.

That definition is so foolish it even contradicts it's self.
The Pope is fully aware of the modern usage of neo-pagan and of the effects of his stupid statement.
How do you know he is aware of the modern usage? How many over 80 year olds are aware of the modern usage of words. Saying he knows the modern usage is like saying he knows how to use a computer, it's very unlikely.

I even use that definition and I'm 15. You're making a common mistake, that is thinking that "if I know something surely everyone else does"

Omgosh, really? Who would ever have thought that we would ever see the day when the Pope would advocate Catholicism over other religions? I am dismayed, I am beside myself, no one could have seen this one coming :eek:


Only a catholic Pope would support such views! :rolleyes:

You know, there's this little thing called "respect" that the Church (I don't say individual Christians, just their leaders) seems to have forgotten about. The Pope and his Cardinals should really think about the consequences of they say before saying something. Maybe "neo-pagan" meant something else in the past, but it has taken a different meaning now. So that leaves us with two possibilities: either he used this word on purpose and thus is a stupid bastard who doesn't deserve being Pope, or he didn't think about the meaning nowadays of "neo-pagan" and thus is just an ignorant zealot that isn't quite fit to be Pope either.

Guess that's what you get when a spiritual institution starts dabbling in politics.

How do you know he is aware of the modern usage? How many over 80 year olds are aware of the modern usage of words. Saying he knows the modern usage is like saying he knows how to use a computer, it's very unlikely.

I even use that definition and I'm 15. You're making a common mistake, that is thinking that "if I know something surely everyone else does"

I suppose it's possible he could be ignorant enough not to be aware of the modern usage. But frankly, I would think that someone in such a high-profile, powerful position would make sure to do some research on the things he's going to make statements about to make sure he doesn't make an ass of himself.

You know, there's this little thing called "respect" that the Church (I don't say individual Christians, just their leaders) seems to have forgotten about. The Pope and his Cardinals should really think about the consequences of they say before saying something. Maybe "neo-pagan" meant something else in the past, but it has taken a different meaning now. So that leaves us with two possibilities: either he used this word on purpose and thus is a stupid bastard who doesn't deserve being Pope, or he didn't think about the meaning nowadays of "neo-pagan" and thus is just an ignorant zealot that isn't quite fit to be Pope either.

Guess that's what you get when a spiritual institution starts dabbling in politics.

*Gives Da Wolverines a batch of cookies and a cow. Filled with milk.*

ignorant
by that basis everyone is ignorant because noone can know everything.

I suppose it's possible he could be ignorant enough not to be aware of the modern usage. But frankly, I would think that someone in such a high-profile, powerful position would make sure to do some research on the things he's going to make statements about to make sure he doesn't make an ass of himself. well he isn't a great pope just a filler in but the definition that I know he must have been using isn't wrong it's just out of date and as I said before sometimes over 80 year olds aren't up to date. :eek:

well he isn't a great pope just a filler in but the definition that I know he must have been using isn't wrong it's just out of date and as I said before sometimes over 80 year olds aren't up to date. :eek:

Well, he definitely is a seat-warmer, I agree with you there. I just hope he doesn't surprise everyone and live to 110. Ugh.

And yeah, everyday 80+ year olds sometimes aren't up-to-date, but he's the head of a powerful, global organisation. Can you imagine the sheer number of advisors he must have to tell him the modern meanings of things?

by that basis everyone is ignorant because noone can know everything.

well he isn't a great pope just a filler in but the definition that I know he must have been using isn't wrong it's just out of date and as I said before sometimes over 80 year olds aren't up to date. :eek:

The Church has people skilled in press-releases just like any other organization. Their cardinals are widely skilled in "paganism" matters too, and ALL popes have this kind of knowledge - the Vatican Library is filled with works on it. So it's either a big flaw that he chose to use the word as he did or a big flaw that he didn't know its meaning.

The Church has people skilled in press-releases just like any other organization. Their cardinals are widely skilled in "paganism" matters too, and ALL popes have this kind of knowledge - the Vatican Library is filled with works on it. So it's either a big flaw that he chose to use the word as he did or a big flaw that he didn't know its meaning.
yes but it's one sentence in an entire speech advicers miss things.

1) the Vatican has an army of devoted Catholic's and probly the best spy network in the world (how do you think they have lasted so long and keep so many secrets) all the pope would need to do was excommunicate Hitler and there would be anarchy in the streets

2) the church helped many SS escape after WWII

3) the church felt much like the world did pre WWII in the fact that a strong power would be needed to the east to fight communism

1) the Vatican has an army of devoted Catholic's and probly the best spy network in the world (how do you think they have lasted so long and keep so many secrets) all the pope would need to do was excommunicate Hitler and there would be anarchy in the streets

2) the church helped many SS escape after WWII

3) the church felt much like the world did pre WWII in the fact that a strong power would be needed to the east to fight communism

So the Church helped and allowed nazism... But if the Pagans did it...

OMFG!!! THE CHURCH IS PAGAN!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

OMFG!!! THE CHURCH IS PAGAN!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Well, arguably, the Bible and the original incarnation of the Catholic Church were sponsored by 'pagan' emperor. Aaah, Constantine. Such an ecclectic fellow. I'm surprised the Church didn't seem to mind he was still Pontifex Maximus of the Roman Imperial Cult, as well as the head of some fashionable sun cult, when he decided to become a Catholic. But I guess they were willing to overlook their beliefs for the right price.

So the Church helped and allowed nazism... But if the Pagans did it...

OMFG!!! THE CHURCH IS PAGAN!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Yes, because the Vatican often helps organisations that try to damage it. A wonder it still exists, really. :rolleyes:

Many historians compare the Nazis' beliefs to be a throwback to ancient Germanic paganism (only in part, of course) - Norman Davies in "Europe", for instance.
A lot of the Nazis, especially Himmler, were in involved in the Thule society and various occult societies. Hitler apparently publicly mocked these groups though.

A lot of the Nazis, especially Himmler, were in involved in the Thule society and various occult societies. Hitler apparently publicly mocked these groups though.
Sensible of the chap. Most Germans were Christian, and Hitler wouldn't have done much for his support had he publicly endorsed the occult.

A lot of the Nazis, especially Himmler, were in involved in the Thule society and various occult societies. Hitler apparently publicly mocked these groups though.

Which still means that he shouldn't use the term "neopaganism" but "Thule". Keeping in mind that Thule is to paganism like Fred Phelps is to Christianity.

Which still means that he shouldn't use the term "neopaganism" but "Thule". Keeping in mind that Thule is to paganism like Fred Phelps is to Christianity.
But Fred Phelps' ideas were spawned by Christian ideology, yes?

But Fred Phelps' ideas were spawned by Christian ideology, yes?

By his psychosis, mostly. But then I ask of you: If Freddie started killing homosexuals, would you like it if one of them said "these murders were perpetrated by Christians..."?

By his psychosis, mostly. But then I ask of you: If Freddie started killing homosexuals, would you like it if one of them said "these murders were perpetrated by Christians..."?
Ultimately started by Christian ideology would be closer. But I do get that a lot of the time, really. It would be technically true…

Ultimately started by Christian ideology would be closer. But I do get that a lot of the time, really. It would be technically true…

But you'd still be offended. Because it's inflamatory. And you'd still recognize it as a blanket statement in disguise. Bearing in mind that while Phelps IS a christian (albeit a psychotic one), the Nazis WEREN'T neopagans, at least not by the sense of the word nowadays.

Well, arguably, the Bible and the original incarnation of the Catholic Church were sponsored by 'pagan' emperor. Aaah, Constantine. Such an ecclectic fellow. I'm surprised the Church didn't seem to mind he was still Pontifex Maximus of the Roman Imperial Cult, as well as the head of some fashionable sun cult, when he decided to become a Catholic. But I guess they were willing to overlook their beliefs for the right price.
I've always gotten a kick out of the fact that we only have the Bible today because a non-Christian leader decided to use the early Christians as a means to secure political power for himself.

I've always gotten a kick out of the fact that we only have the Bible today because a non-Christian leader decided to use the early Christians as a means to secure political power for himself.

The Lord, it is said, works in Mysterious Ways(tm). ;)

So much so that at times, I wonder if Lunatic Goofballs isn't really the one running things.

:p

And people ask me why I'm not keen on Christianity!


From my experience, It seems that most people I meet who are against organized religion take the flaws of the Catholic Church and blame it on all of Christianity (and thus every denomination). Many have overlooked the fact that in 1517 there was man who had a major problem with the corruptness and lack of sprituality of the Church (church leaders telling people that they needed to give money to the Church in order to get out of pergatory and into heaven/buying salvation, giving excessive amount of ''respect'' to priests, making a huge deal out of idols like little figurines of saints, losing focus of the whole POINT of the religion: Jesus, etc). And he did something about it. Something to do with a thesis or 95 or something... and what was his name again... Luther??

From my experience, It seems that most people I meet who are against organized religion take the flaws of the Catholic Church and blame it on all of Christianity (and thus every denomination). Many have overlooked the fact that in 1517 there was man who had a major problem with the corruptness and lack of sprituality of the Church (church leaders telling people that they needed to give money to the Church in order to get out of pergatory and into heaven/buying salvation, giving excessive amount of ''respect'' to priests, making a huge deal out of idols like little figurines of saints, losing focus of the whole POINT of the religion: Jesus, etc). And he did something about it. Something to do with a thesis or 95 or something... and what was his name again... Luther??

And then Protestantism killed people in Salem, generated Pat Robertson, tries to change the US into a theocracy, is ALSO against pagan religions... What's your point?

By his psychosis, mostly. But then I ask of you: If Freddie started killing homosexuals, would you like it if one of them said "these murders were perpetrated by Christians..."?

The problem with your comparison is that Christianity, in most of its forms, holds to the same basic principles. Paganism and neo-Paganism do not. Rather, they are a collection of very different and wide-spread sets of beliefs that just happen to be bunched into one category called Paganism.

I'm sure the Pope did not mean to insult you directly, nor did he intend to include all neo-Pagan beliefs in that one usage of the word. It's already been shown in previous posts that there were occult practices happening within the Nazi party, mostly in the higher ranks. (This is how we see commoners within facist Germany practice Christianity and other beliefs approved--or tolerated--by Hitler.)

The Pope probably did do a bit too much of generalizing in that one phrase. However unintentional as it may have been, he should maybe have chosen a term more... closer to his actual intents.

And then Protestantism killed people in Salem, generated Pat Robertson, tries to change the US into a theocracy, is ALSO against pagan religions... What's your point?


You're right. Every belief system has it's weak spots and has messed up big time at multiple places throughout history. *admits mistake* Forgive me for sounding so one-sided. :p

You're right. Every belief system has it's weak spots and has messed up big time at multiple places throughout history. *admits mistake* Forgive me for sounding so one-sided. :p

You're forgiven. *Gives you a cookie*

How do you know he is aware of the modern usage? How many over 80 year olds are aware of the modern usage of words. Saying he knows the modern usage is like saying he knows how to use a computer, it's very unlikely.

I even use that definition and I'm 15. You're making a common mistake, that is thinking that "if I know something surely everyone else does"

You are of course excused. You have no need to be aware of things which do not interest you. He, however, is the leader of one of the worlds major (and thus influentual) religions. as a religious man he should have studied, at least, comparative religion and should be aware of Paganism and what it stands for. How else will he convert us? :rolleyes:
If he is aware then he is deliberately causing trouble.
If he is unaware then he should be replaced - he's incompetant.
Eiher way he's acting like an idiot

If he is aware then he is deliberately causing trouble.
If he is unaware then he should be replaced - he's incompetant.


I wasn't aware that being up on the latest pagan lingo was compulsory knowledge to sit in the Seat of Peter. What about Bill Gates? You know, I'll bet he doesn't know a Dianic from a Dispensationalist...someone should fire that senile, incompetent fool!

1) the Vatican has an army of devoted Catholic's and probly the best spy network in the world (how do you think they have lasted so long and keep so many secrets) all the pope would need to do was excommunicate Hitler and there would be anarchy in the streets

That's very naive to think that.

Anyway, only Catholics can be excommunicated.

2) the church helped many SS escape after WWII

How do you mean "the church" in this sense? Official policy right from the Vatican telling priests to help the SS. Or a few priests sympathetic to the Nazi idea?

Also, the church saved a great many Jews during the war by either offering the sanctuary or by helping them escape to safe havens.

of course, we can still blame him for putting the blame on "neo-pagans" though can't we.
The nazis picked and choose(d) their beliefs. they were hunting for the spear of destiny, holy grail and the arc which are all very christian concepts so lets blame it on their Neo-Christian ideas too eh?

Wtf... :confused:
You've been seeing a good few too many Hollywood-movies lately, haven't you?
The Spear of Destiny is in the Treasue House in Vienna, where it has been for centuries. When the Nazis occupied Vienna, all the old "treasures of the Reich" were transfered to Germany and displayed, the spear among them.
And I never heard that the Nazis were hunting for the Holy Grail, except of course in Indiana Jones - The Last Crusade.

Some groups in the Nazi government were fascinated by the occult and pagan, especially regarding European mythology and history, but paganism didn't become some sort of state religion, nor was this obsession more than a hobby for most.

From my experience, It seems that most people I meet who are against organized religion take the flaws of the Catholic Church and blame it on all of Christianity (and thus every denomination). Many have overlooked the fact that in 1517 there was man who had a major problem with the corruptness and lack of sprituality of the Church (church leaders telling people that they needed to give money to the Church in order to get out of pergatory and into heaven/buying salvation, giving excessive amount of ''respect'' to priests, making a huge deal out of idols like little figurines of saints, losing focus of the whole POINT of the religion: Jesus, etc). And he did something about it. Something to do with a thesis or 95 or something... and what was his name again... Luther??

Yes. And while the Roman Catholic church didn't actively support the Nazi regime (leaning rather towards opposing it, and Catholic priests in turn being prosecuted and killed for that), the Lutheran church, or at least many priests and bishops, openly supported it.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0504730.htm

The pope in an attempt to make peace with Jews has blamed the holocaust on neo-pagans.

Way to wriggle out of the responsibility - after the Vatican ignored what was happening and this Pope was actually in the Hitler Youth we now find it was the Pagans what done it.

And people ask me why I'm not keen on Christianity!
It was neopaganism in a sense, they were technically a neo-pagan religion, but I don't think the Pope should be blaming it on all Neo-Pagans.

Though I am tired of people saying the blame lies on Catholics. Remember, we were one of Hitler's major targets too.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0504730.htm

The pope in an attempt to make peace with Jews has blamed the holocaust on neo-pagans.

Way to wriggle out of the responsibility - after the Vatican ignored what was happening and this Pope was actually in the Hitler Youth we now find it was the Pagans what done it.

And people ask me why I'm not keen on Christianity!

Yeah, nevermind the fact that Hitler had been baptized a Catholic, and used Christianity to justify his antisemitism. Nevermind that Ante Pavelic was a Catholic and visted Pius XII REGULARLY. Nevermind that Franciscan monks participated in the holocaust in Jasenovac, where they would BURN THEIR VICTIMS ALIVE, unlike Auschwitz where they gassed them first. Nevermind that the Catholic church smuggled Nazi war criminals out to South America when the war ended, INCLUDING Josef Mengele. And nevermind that the Catholic church ended up in possession of all the money of the Jews that the Nazis killed.

It was the pagans' fault! Blame the pagans! Let's not take any responsibility for the Catholic church! The pope is a penis.
/rant .... which is not to say I think Catholics in general are penises, just the pope. ;)

Yeah, nevermind the fact that Hitler had been baptized a Catholic, and used Christianity to justify his antisemitism. Nevermind that Ante Pavelic was a Catholic and visted Pius XII REGULARLY. Nevermind that Franciscan monks participated in the holocaust in Jasenovac, where they would BURN THEIR VICTIMS ALIVE, unlike Auschwitz where they gassed them first. Nevermind that the Catholic church smuggled Nazi war criminals out to South America when the war ended, INCLUDING Josef Mengele. And nevermind that the Catholic church ended up in possession of all the money of the Jews that the Nazis killed.

It was the pagans' fault! Blame the pagans! Let's not take any responsibility for the Catholic church! The pope is a penis.
/rant .... which is not to say I think Catholics in general are penises, just the pope. ;)
Yeah, and Mao used Marx to justify his actions. Does this mean Marx is at fault?

Yeah, and Mao used Marx to justify his actions. Does this mean Marx is at fault?
Um, you seem to be going off to the side a bit. Yes, Mao used Marx to justify many of his actions, but I don't remember Marx standing next to Mao and saying, "Yep, this chap is A-okay." I don't remember Marx getting royalties from Mao's regime. I don't remember Marx helping Maoists to escape prosecution. Maybe I'm just not up on my godless commie history, though...

And nevermind that the Catholic church ended up in possession of all the money of the Jews that the Nazis killed.

As far as I know, that's not in the posession of the Catholic church, but of Swiss banks. Neutrality pays of...

As far as I know, that's not in the posession of the Catholic church, but of Swiss banks. Neutrality pays of...

As I recall, a vast amount of it was taken from Swiss banks and distributed to Holocaust survivors.

Yeah, nevermind the fact that Hitler had been baptized a Catholic,

So? I have been baptised as a Catholic too. Does that mean the Church should be seen as responsible if I grow up to be a tyrant even though I haven't been Catholic for several years now?

and used Christianity to justify his antisemitism.

True, but they focused on some uncatholic parts of chistianity (such as Luther). Or should the Catholic church take responsibility for anything done in the name of the Christian faith?

Nevermind that Ante Pavelic was a Catholic and visted Pius XII REGULARLY. Nevermind that Franciscan monks participated in the holocaust in Jasenovac, where they would BURN THEIR VICTIMS ALIVE, unlike Auschwitz where they gassed them first. Nevermind that the Catholic church smuggled Nazi war criminals out to South America when the war ended, INCLUDING Josef Mengele.

Nevermind the fact that lots of Catholics (both lay and clergy) saved a lot of Jews too, and spoke out against the Nazis...

And nevermind that the Catholic church ended up in possession of all the money of the Jews that the Nazis killed.

Do you have a source for this. Though I don't exactly doubt it, it isn't something I have heard before.

Yeah, and Mao used Marx to justify his actions. Does this mean Marx is at fault?

Did I say that THAT made Catholicism at fault? Read my whole post ... and, following your analogy, just what sort of blame would Marx (assuming he lived that long) have if he tried to say that Mao had NOT been influenced by Marxism? Especially if he blamed an innocent party instead?

So? I have been baptised as a Catholic too. Does that mean the Church should be seen as responsible if I grow up to be a tyrant even though I haven't been Catholic for several years now?



True, but they focused on some uncatholic parts of chistianity (such as Luther). Or should the Catholic church take responsibility for anything done in the name of the Christian faith?



Nevermind the fact that lots of Catholics (both lay and clergy) saved a lot of Jews too, and spoke out against the Nazis...

My point isn't that all Catholics are to blame for Nazism. My point is that the pope is cowardly wriggling out of any responsibility past officials of his church had by blaming the neo-pagans. There is a case for the Nazis being Christian as well as pagan. He's ignoring all of that.



Do you have a source for this. Though I don't exactly doubt it, it isn't something I have heard before.

This seems like a good one: http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/the_vatican.htm

This seems like a good one: http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/the_vatican.htm

That's a far cry from your assertion that "the Catholic church ended up in possession of all the money of the Jews that the Nazis killed."

That's a far cry from your assertion that "the Catholic church ended up in possession of all the money of the Jews that the Nazis killed."

it's a hell of a lot. Here's another if you want to read more: http://mprofaca.cro.net/vatigold.html. I'll admit that the full numbers and details aren't known (the Vatican keeps it under wraps ... hmmm ...).

Jesus Francis Christ, for crying out loud!

1) Have you heard/read the Pope's original German speech or have you only dealt with a possibly bad-worded translation?

2) Are you aware that his speech was held in a German synagoge?

For your information: It has been the first time that a Pope has been in a German synagoge, and only the second time that a Pope has entered a synagoge at all.
The reason the Pope visited that synagoge and made his speech there is a better relationship between the Catholic Church and the Jews, and who better than a Pope of German descent who lived in and through the 3rd Reich (as a boy!) to embrace a German Jew in the name of peace and understanding? The community's rabbi Netanel Teitelbaum offered his hand for all peoples and Jews on this earth as a symbol of peace that has to reign on earth.

3) This is what he said in German:

"Im 20. Jahrhundert hat in der dunkelsten Zeit deutscher und europäischer Geschichte eine wahnwitzige neuheidnische Rassenideologie zu dem staatlich geplanten und systematisch ins Werk gesetzten Versuch der Auslöschung des europäischen Judentums geführt, zu dem, was als die Shoa in die Geschichte eingegangen ist. (...) Weil man die Heiligkeit Gottes nicht mehr anerkannte, wurde auch die Heiligkeit menschlichen Lebens mit Füßen getreten."

This is the translation of what he said:

"In the 20th century, during the darkest time of German and European history, an insane new-heathen* race ideology has lead to the attempt of obliterating the European Jewry, planned by the government and systematically put to work, lead to what in history is known as the Shoa. (...) Because the holyness of God was not accepted any more, so was the sanctity of human life trampled under foot."

*
heathen: one who is regarded as irreligious, uncivilized, or unenlightened.

new-heathen: Could it possibly be that the Pope expressed that the Nazis founded a new cult based on all kinds of un-Godly, irreligious principles?
If your answer to that question is not a definite "no" - then I really don't know what this whole quarrel is about.

4) I honestly hope that noone here can identify with the words "wahnwitzige neuheidnische Rassenideologie" (= insane new-heathen race ideology), less acknowledge to follow such an ideology - whether one believes in God, gods, nature or nothing at all.

Blame it on the Nazis that they have misused aspects of heathen or pagan believes to further their agenda of hatred and crime and thus giving the words heathen or pagan an additional facet no sane person can like. Just another example of what the Nazis abused, as sad as it is.

Jesus Francis Christ, for crying out loud!

1) Have you heard/read the Pope's original German speech or have you only dealt with a possibly bad-worded translation?

2) Are you aware that his speech was held in a German synagoge?

For your information: It has been the first time that a Pope has been in a German synagoge, and only the second time that a Pope has entered a synagoge at all.
The reason the Pope visited that synagoge and made his speech there is a better relationship between the Catholic Church and the Jews, and who better than a Pope of German descent who lived in and through the 3rd Reich (as a boy!) to embrace a German Jew in the name of peace and understanding? The community's rabbi Netanel Teitelbaum offered his hand for all peoples and Jews on this earth as a symbol of peace that has to reign on earth.

3) This is what he said in German:

"Im 20. Jahrhundert hat in der dunkelsten Zeit deutscher und europäischer Geschichte eine wahnwitzige neuheidnische Rassenideologie zu dem staatlich geplanten und systematisch ins Werk gesetzten Versuch der Auslöschung des europäischen Judentums geführt, zu dem, was als die Shoa in die Geschichte eingegangen ist. (...) Weil man die Heiligkeit Gottes nicht mehr anerkannte, wurde auch die Heiligkeit menschlichen Lebens mit Füßen getreten."

This is the translation of what he said:

"In the 20th century, during the darkest time of German and European history, an insane new-heathen* race ideology has lead to the attempt of obliterating the European Jewry, planned by the government and systematically put to work, lead to what in history is known as the Shoa. (...) Because the holyness of God was not accepted any more, so was the sanctity of human life trampled under foot."

*
heathen: one who is regarded as irreligious, uncivilized, or unenlightened.

new-heathen: Could it possibly be that the Pope expressed that the Nazis founded a new cult based on all kinds of un-Godly, irreligious principles?
If your answer to that question is not a definite "no" - then I really don't know what this whole quarrel is about.

4) I honestly hope that noone here can identify with the words "wahnwitzige neuheidnische Rassenideologie" (= insane new-heathen race ideology), less acknowledge to follow such an ideology - whether one believes in God, gods, nature or nothing at all.

Blame it on the Nazis that they have misused aspects of heathen or pagan believes to further their agenda of hatred and crime and thus giving the words heathen or pagan an additional facet no sane person can like. Just another example of what the Nazis abused, as sad as it is.

You don't say? Well, in that case, I might the pope a little slack (though I still think he's a penis, that wasn't the only reason). The source I read said he blamed the neopagans. Not knowing german, I'm curious to know just how ambiguous his choice of words was ...

Despite all of that, he's walking a fine line. "New-heathen race" ... way back when, I believe "heathen" meant more or less the same as "pagan". I wish that he wouldn't try to assign some religious motivation to the Nazis ... people in glass houses, after all, shouldn't toss stones.

You don't say? Well, in that case, I might the pope a little slack (though I still think he's a penis, that wasn't the only reason). The source I read said he blamed the neopagans. Not knowing german, I'm curious to know just how ambiguous his choice of words was ...

Despite all of that, he's walking a fine line. "New-heathen race" ... way back when, I believe "heathen" meant more or less the same as "pagan". I wish that he wouldn't try to assign some religious motivation to the Nazis ... people in glass houses, after all, shouldn't toss stones.

1) He said new-heathen race IDEOLOGY. Please don't leave out the most important part, heathen only being an adjective there.

2) And on what do you base this claim?
"And nevermind that the Catholic church ended up in possession of all the money of the Jews that the Nazis killed."

Most of the money and gold the Nazis took away from the European Jews ended up being used to fuel the Nazi-German warmachine.

3) Like it or not, the Nazis pursued their evil deeds with what one could call a misguided, pseudo-religious, "heathen" fervor.

You don't say? Well, in that case, I might the pope a little slack (though I still think he's a penis, that wasn't the only reason). The source I read said he blamed the neopagans. Not knowing german, I'm curious to know just how ambiguous his choice of words was ...

Despite all of that, he's walking a fine line. "New-heathen race" ... way back when, I believe "heathen" meant more or less the same as "pagan". I wish that he wouldn't try to assign some religious motivation to the Nazis ... people in glass houses, after all, shouldn't toss stones.

Ok, to clear that one up: What he refered to was a "new ideology of heathen contents". There is no way of literally translating his construction of words into English, the languages and grammar won't allow it.

Correct, German only has one word for both heathen and pagan. However, what has emerged during the last few decades as a revival of pagan believes and cults is in German refered to as "Paganismus", not "Heidentum". So in that way his wording was VERY clear.

Thanks Cabra West - you are one of the few people here who can actually understand the difficulties encountered when translating German into a foreign language...
Took me about 45 minutes to come up with a sound translation that carries the complete meaning without straying too far from the original wording.

Thanks Cabra West - you are one of the few people here who can actually understand the difficulties encountered when translating German into a foreign language...
Took me about 45 minutes to come up with a sound translation that carries the complete meaning without straying too far from the original wording.

I've done some translation work while studying... and I hated it. You may spend hours on trying to find the right words to carry the exact same meanings and the right connotations and still end up with a miserable compromise...
And in this case, the interpreter obviously missed out on one implication of his choice of vocabulary.

I've done some translation work while studying... and I hated it. You may spend hours on trying to find the right words to carry the exact same meanings and the right connotations and still end up with a miserable compromise...
And in this case, the interpreter obviously missed out on one implication of his choice of vocabulary.
Ahh, but it says neopagan not pagan.

Ahh, but it says neopagan not pagan.

... and the original word was "neuheidnisch". Neu being the German word and prefix for new or neo. Your point?

2) And on what do you base this claim?
"And nevermind that the Catholic church ended up in possession of all the money of the Jews that the Nazis killed."

Most of the money and gold the Nazis took away from the European Jews ended up being used to fuel the Nazi-German warmachine.

*sighs* Alright, so not ALL of it ... A very great deal. The Nazis did spend a lot. But a virtual majority of the remaining money ended up in the Vatican. Don't try denying it unless you have a source; I have two and you have zero.


3) Like it or not, the Nazis pursued their evil deeds with what one could call a misguided, pseudo-religious, "heathen" fervor.

Are you saying "heathen" means "irreligious" or not? And, as I've pointed out, it can be argued that they pursued their evil deeds with a Christian fervor. Why don't we compromise and say that religion (or the absence of religion) has little or nothing to do with their motivations? Or you can listen to the pope, who says, "oh, this is what happens when you don't worship the Judeo-Christian God the way we do." He's full of it.

Are you saying "heathen" means "irreligious" or not? And, as I've pointed out, it can be argued that they pursued their evil deeds with a Christian fervor. Why don't we compromise and say that religion (or the absence of religion) has little or nothing to do with their motivations? Or you can listen to the pope, who says, "oh, this is what happens when you don't worship the Judeo-Christian God the way we do." He's full of it.

He's a religious leader, what do you expect him to do? Question god's existence?
I don't like this pope any more than you do, but I think you are taking it a bit far.

Religion had nothing to do with the motivation of the Nazis, in fact Roman Catholic priests were prosecuted and the Roman Catholic church on the whole frowned upon, as it refused to participate in the "Gleichschaltung", unlike the Lutheran church, who for the most part happily obliged the Nazi reorganisation of religious system and structures.

He's a religious leader, what do you expect him to do? Question god's existence?
I don't like this pope any more than you do, but I think you are taking it a bit far.

I happen to have a number of friends who are neopagans. I find a remark by the pope stating that neopaganism caused Nazism (if that is indeed what he said) highly offensive, and I feel compelled to point out the hypocrisy.

Religion had nothing to do with the motivation of the Nazis,

Then we agree.

I happen to have a number of friends who are neopagans. I find a remark by the pope stating that neopaganism caused Nazism (if that is indeed what he said) highly offensive, and decidedly untrue.


He wasn't talking about neopaganism, or else he would have said so. :rolleyes:
He was talking about a heathen = irreligious ideology, that was pursued with religious fervor...
If anything, his words might be better translated as an "ideology without god", continueing on to how this ideology disregarded the sanctity of human life, a sanctity that it was given by god (according to Christian belief)

He wasn't talking about neopaganism, or else he would have said so. :rolleyes:
He was talking about a heathen = irreligious ideology, that was pursued with religious fervor...

I did say I would give him the benefit of the doubt.

Irreligious ideology pursued with a religious fervor? Huh?

I did say I would give him the benefit of the doubt.

Irreligious ideology pursued with a religious fervor? Huh?

It was an irreligious ideology inasmuch as neither traditional religion nor god (in any form) had a place in it. Yet the Nazis believed in it in a way that could be called pseudo-religious.
It's a bit like the way communism was regarded in the former Sovjet block, it replaced religion.

Benedict-Ratzinger is a born liar, self-serving politican, and Judaizer. This is nothing new. This spineless liberalist knows he has to suck up to the Jews or they'll destroy his career and life. His speeches are on the same level as Bush and other crooked politicans.

(...)
Are you saying "heathen" means "irreligious" or not? And, as I've pointed out, it can be argued that they pursued their evil deeds with a Christian fervor. Why don't we compromise and say that religion (or the absence of religion) has little or nothing to do with their motivations? Or you can listen to the pope, who says, "oh, this is what happens when you don't worship the Judeo-Christian God the way we do." He's full of it.
I'd say that the absence of true Christian believes like "Love one another" and the Golden Rule "Do unto others" had a hell lot to do with how the Nazis "achieved" (if one can even talk of achievement in that case) their evil goals.

(Oh, and just because I don't jump on every google search result that pops up with "vatican + gold" I claim credibility. Yes, maybe those sources are right or hint into the right direction. Then again, we will never know until either the vatican or the swiss banks or, for that matter, the intelligence services open their secret vaults.)

And if you quote (or misquote) the Pope - how about you state some sources? It just might create credibility.

Here's my sources for the quote:
http://focus.msn.de/hps/fol/newsausgabe/newsausgabe.htm?id=18179
http://kurier.at/chronik/1083337.php
http://www.netzeitung.de/deutschland/353879.html
http://www.n24.de/politik/inland/?n2005081913482400002

Ahh, but it says neopagan not pagan.
And it shouldn't even say that. Neither neopagan nor pagan is what the Pope said. He said heathen, new heathen for that matter, speaking of Nazi cults that were newly founded during the 3rd Reich.

I happen to have a number of friends who are neopagans. I find a remark by the pope stating that neopaganism caused Nazism (if that is indeed what he said) highly offensive, and I feel compelled to point out the hypocrisy.
While they might be whatever they feel like to be - it is not what the man has said. And he definitely didn't say that neopaganism caused Nazism. Not even close! Man, you're just twisting the words around to suit your needs.
And I'm pretty sure that your neopagan friends don't believe in a kind of racial ideology that makes it okay to gas people - whoever translated that speech did a poor job, honestly, and this is what comes out of it.

(While others might hint to the Tower of Babylon and what different languages can or cannot do - I'm just amazed at the human psyche)

And I second what Cabra West said in the two posts above!

It was an irreligious ideology inasmuch as neither traditional religion nor god (in any form) had a place in it. Yet the Nazis believed in it in a way that could be called pseudo-religious.
It's a bit like the way communism was regarded in the former Sovjet block, it replaced religion.


thats a lil off actually the nazi's set up a kinda sun god worship type deal, dont believe watch the history channel for about a day. lol, so thus the nazis were in fact neopagans..thank you please come again

thats a lil off actually the nazi's set up a kinda sun god worship type deal, dont believe watch the history channel for about a day. lol, so thus the nazis were in fact neopagans..thank you please come again

Excuse me? Sun god?
I grew up in Germany and trust me, neither my parents nor my grandparents ever heard anything about a sun god cult as official German religion. I went on to study history and guess what? No sun god there, either. I think you may confuse the fact that the swastika is used as a sun symbol in Hinduism, and that the Nazis took it for their symbol.

We don't get the history channel here, but if that's the information you get there, I don't think we need it, either.

Before the Germans became Christians, they worshipped their equivalent to the Nordic Gods, not the sun.
The only sun-reference you might find with the Nazis is that they tried to reestablish solstitial celebrations, marking the turning of the seasons. But that is all. And those were based on the old heathen (= German gods) believes.

From my experience, It seems that most people I meet who are against organized religion take the flaws of the Catholic Church and blame it on all of Christianity (and thus every denomination). Many have overlooked the fact that in 1517 there was man who had a major problem with the corruptness and lack of sprituality of the Church (church leaders telling people that they needed to give money to the Church in order to get out of pergatory and into heaven/buying salvation, giving excessive amount of ''respect'' to priests, making a huge deal out of idols like little figurines of saints, losing focus of the whole POINT of the religion: Jesus, etc). And he did something about it. Something to do with a thesis or 95 or something... and what was his name again... Luther??

I've already pointed out that Luther's writing was tremendously influential in the Nazi party. It's also given us Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and the Promise Keepers. You're essentially saying "hey, if you don't like the Catholic Church because it has shit all over it, why don't you try this steaming pile of crap that it created."

Alright, first of all, neo-pagans, stop getting all fussy here.The Nazi ideology was based on Wagnerite beliefs about "god-like" Aryans, and heavily loaded with occultism. So technically, yes, it was neo-pagan. But what you're seemingly forgetting is that there are thousands of different types of neo-pagans (it's a term referring to anyone with Polytheistic beliefs, excluding Hindus), so Benedict is only blaming the Nazi type of Neo-Paganism.

I'd say that the absence of true Christian believes like "Love one another" and the Golden Rule "Do unto others" had a hell lot to do with how the Nazis "achieved" (if one can even talk of achievement in that case) their evil goals.

Because everyone who claims to be a Christian follows those beliefs. :rolleyes: Being moral doesn't mean you must be religious, and vice versa.

(Oh, and just because I don't jump on every google search result that pops up with "vatican + gold" I claim credibility. Yes, maybe those sources are right or hint into the right direction. Then again, we will never know until either the vatican or the swiss banks or, for that matter, the intelligence services open their secret vaults.)

Of course, because whenever I come across a historical fact I remember the source, and finding the original one from memory is so much easier that looking for other sources with similar references. It's pretty damn certain that the Vatican has an awful lot of stolen Jewish money. No, I can't say exactly how much, and neither can you. But the facts are there.


And if you quote (or misquote) the Pope - how about you state some sources? It just might create credibility.

Here's my sources for the quote:
http://focus.msn.de/hps/fol/newsausgabe/newsausgabe.htm?id=18179
http://kurier.at/chronik/1083337.php
http://www.netzeitung.de/deutschland/353879.html
http://www.n24.de/politik/inland/?n2005081913482400002


You think I was claiming that my last post had an ACTUAL quote by the pope? More of a sarcastic paraphrase, but then I guess I shouldn't have expected people to realize that. (By the way, I don't know German)


And it shouldn't even say that. Neither neopagan nor pagan is what the Pope said. He said heathen, new heathen for that matter, speaking of Nazi cults that were newly founded during the 3rd Reich.


While they might be whatever they feel like to be - it is not what the man has said. And he definitely didn't say that neopaganism caused Nazism. Not even close! Man, you're just twisting the words around to suit your needs.
And I'm pretty sure that your neopagan friends don't believe in a kind of racial ideology that makes it okay to gas people - whoever translated that speech did a poor job, honestly, and this is what comes out of it.

If you had bothered to read all my posts in order, you would have noticed that the one you are responding to is explaining my reasons for my original post in this thread! If the source in the first post was mistranslated (and I will accept that it is, like I said, I don't know German), then the point's moot, and your attack here would only be valid if I had known it was a mistranslation in the first place. :headbang:

... I don't remember Marx getting royalties from Mao's regime...

Of course not. Communists don't respect intellectual property rights. ;)

He wasn't talking about neopaganism, or else he would have said so. :rolleyes:
He was talking about a heathen = irreligious ideology, that was pursued with religious fervor...
If anything, his words might be better translated as an "ideology without god", continueing on to how this ideology disregarded the sanctity of human life, a sanctity that it was given by god (according to Christian belief)
BUT
surely the Vatican provides translations for the Popes speeches to avoid this kind of confusion So....
either their translation was faulty or deliberately wrong!!!
OR
they don't care how the Pope is mis-interpreted.

Scarey either way.

Personally I suspect the translation was provided by the Vatican and the translation was deliberate... Paganism is a threat to established churches (jewish and christian) and it does them no harm to throw mud at us.

BUT
surely the Vatican provides translations for the Popes speeches to avoid this kind of confusion So....
either their translation was faulty or deliberately wrong!!!
OR
they don't care how the Pope is mis-interpreted.

Scarey either way.

Personally I suspect the translation was provided by the Vatican and the translation was deliberate... Paganism is a threat to established churches (jewish and christian) and it does them no harm to throw mud at us.

To give the poor translators some credit (whoever employed them), my guess is they went for "keeping the words as close to the original as possible". That's one concept of translating languages, some poeple believe it should always be done, but it is dangerous. By translating literally, you can end up with a very different meaning to the original.
Words tend to have just a small number of meanings, but a large number of connotations (associations, historical meanings, meanings that differ from the original word, etc.)
In that sense, "neo-paganism" as a word translates only and exclusively to "new heathens", without specifying a group of people following one belief in an organised way. That, however, is the connotation several people in the USA seem to have for the word. It's a connotation that hardly exists at all in Europe, as the American form of neo-paganism isn't nearly as wide-spread or even known to the largest part of the population.

So, in trying to keep the wording of the original speech when translating, the translator overlooked this second meaning of the word. That can happen, it happens a lot more often than you think.

I can give you an example, if you promise not to accuse me of Bush-bashing:
Shortly after Bush was elected for the first time, the first few of his speeches were shown on German TV, and were done with the voice-over of a translator. When I was watching the news, I would watch BBC World first, then zap over to the German news for more local updates. As a result, I sometimes would see Bush's speeches in English first and a little later in German. This being the time when he came up with his most incoherent speeches and a large number of Bushism, I know that the translator didn't have an easy time. But I was still laughing my head of, because the translator had of course corrected the grammar, adjusted the wording, finished unfinished sentences, omitted Bushisms altogether, and generally presented a speech that made a lot more sense than the original, plus he made Bush look a lot better for Germans. :D

Translation is a tough job, and it's a bit difficult to argue the maening of a word if the other party only knows about the connotations in one of the two languages involved...

But I beieve that the Vatican supported the Nazis when they first came into power and the current Pope refuses to open the Vatican archives so nobody can know for sure. It certainly seems that they have something to hide.
One Pope.
Everyone supported the Nazi's.
If the Vatican had openly condemned the Nazi's then the destruction of all thats Catholic would have accured.

Except Hitler was a Catholic and their was a Catholic SS Division

13thSS (Handschar/Handzar)10% Catholic
14thSS (Galicia)-Anti Bolshevik
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MEN412B.html
read the bottom part of that.
it may interest you.

In any case Leave the Pope alone.

Not to be overly pedantic as a history student, but the Nazi regime overtly encouraged the development of a pagan religion, establishing a state religion that was essentially pagan, centred on sun worship, and celebrating archaic pagan rituals. The pope is accordingly right to an extent, and I can assure you that he was not a Hitler Youth member by volition, membership and attendance was compulsory subsequent to 1933.

Of Course we need the EVIL Groups to always blame. Wicca, Gays, Neo-Pagans, Video Games, Television.

Everone needs there fall guy groups.

The Truth is such a rare thing these days.

Of Course we need the EVIL Groups to always blame. Wicca, Gays, Neo-Pagans, Video Games, Television.

Everone needs there fall guy groups.

The Truth is such a rare thing these days.
Apparently, so is grammar and common sense. What's your point?

(...)
13thSS (Handschar/Handzar)10% Catholic
(...)

And the other 90% or so were Muslims - that doesn't really work, does it?

I'm a Protestant and I dont see how eveyone here can be wishing for the Pope to die. We all have dark times in our past, he has his. When Adolf Hitler took over Germany, you either agreed with him or died. This was not his fault.

I agree that is was wrong from him to pin the Holocost on Pagans, but he shouldn't die because of it. In recent years the Catholic church has had some hard times and they have had some past misdoings, but that doesn't mean that the religion is bad. If you walk into a normal, everyday Catholic church and talk with its people you will find that they dont like all of these misdeeds and that their beliefs are good ones. Most religions carry the same general message: "Be nice to others and lead a good life."

All of you athesists, I respect your views, but to wish death upon the Pope is going a little far IMHO. Are you claiming that you are perfect? If you are, then you are wrong. We each have flaws and differences. Your intolerance just shows those flaws.

The Nazi's were primarily a political/ideological movement with primarily technocratic justifications (in that respect little different from any other ideological movement). There was no official Nazi/fascist religious doctrine.

Unofficially the Nazi spiritual background was a mix of B.C.E. Germanic Paganism (not Neo-Paganism, the old brute kind of Germania), Eastern Spiritual Cults (some perverted Buddhism and Shintoism), Astrology and fortune telling. Also, seldom mentioned but of the greatest importance, Lutheran anti-Semitism. Martin Luther was a fanatical anti-Semite (he called for the Jews to be exterminated or otherwise be driven from Germany). Unfortunately he had a lasting impression on German culture; Hitler simply harvested what Luther sowed.

Philosophically the Nazi doctrines were a warped version of Hegel, Hobbes turned on his head (seek the state of war instead of the state of peace), Social Darwinism (an incorrect and ideological reading of evolutionary theory), and butchered Nietzsche (Nietzsche hated mass movements, nationalism, socialism and political parties, so naturally his works were selectively edited to support the National Socialist German Workers Party). Modern scholars dismiss Nazi philosophy as illegitimate, unable to stand up to review or debate; they used anything to justify their actions (and could have done well enough without their philosophical doctrines).


Just setting the record strait as a Historian. The Neo-Pagans shouldn’t feel too special, the Pope has also said Nazism was primarily Atheistic, it was NOT! (as demonstrated above)!

To give the poor translators some credit (whoever employed them), my guess is they went for "keeping the words as close to the original as possible". That's one concept of translating languages, some poeple believe it should always be done, but it is dangerous. By translating literally, you can end up with a very different meaning to the original.
Words tend to have just a small number of meanings, but a large number of connotations (associations, historical meanings, meanings that differ from the original word, etc.)
In that sense, "neo-paganism" as a word translates only and exclusively to "new heathens", without specifying a group of people following one belief in an organised way. That, however, is the connotation several people in the USA seem to have for the word. It's a connotation that hardly exists at all in Europe, as the American form of neo-paganism isn't nearly as wide-spread or even known to the largest part of the population. .....

Actually I'm in the UK. There is a huge debate about this on Yahoos UKPagans forum and I feel you should have a look at the PF site at www.paganfed.org (http://www.paganfed.org)
Check out the definitions of Pagan and maybe have a look at the PF international info.
Paganism is very large and widespread in Europe and we join together (regardless of path) as Pagans or Neo-Pagans. If the translation is wrong then the version I origionally posted from The Catholic News is wrong.

Catholics or the Pope or the Popes translaters or some one who has influence has used the word Neo-pagan where Neo-heathen is implied and that is surely going to cause trouble. I have your explaination in front of me (and well reasoned it is too) yet I'm still angry. How do you think those who don't have the benefit of your education (the majority) feel?

Large organisations are VERY careful about what they say. Every word is weighed.

I'm not convinced that something malicious ins't going on here.

Pagan Federation Germany (http://www.de.paganfederation.org/)
Maybe they can enlighten you on the usage of the words heathen and Pagan.

Maybe they can't

It kinda reeks... yeah the Nazis were on some hyped-up bogus 'racial memory' trip, but the Pope should've been a great deal more careful in how he addressed this. Currying favour with Jews by (apparently) vilifying modern Pagans is pretty crude stuff. His years spent as a member of various authoritarian structures is not standing him in good stead on this one.

Actually I'm in the UK. There is a huge debate about this on Yahoos UKPagans forum and I feel you should have a look at the PF site at www.paganfed.org (http://www.paganfed.org)
Check out the definitions of Pagan and maybe have a look at the PF international info.
Paganism is very large and widespread in Europe and we join together (regardless of path) as Pagans or Neo-Pagans. If the translation is wrong then the version I origionally posted from The Catholic News is wrong.

Catholics or the Pope or the Popes translaters or some one who has influence has used the word Neo-pagan where Neo-heathen is implied and that is surely going to cause trouble. I have your explaination in front of me (and well reasoned it is too) yet I'm still angry. How do you think those who don't have the benefit of your education (the majority) feel?

Large organisations are VERY careful about what they say. Every word is weighed.

I'm not convinced that something malicious ins't going on here.

The first thing that caught my eye on that page was this:

Definition of a Pagan:

A follower of a polytheistic or pantheistic nature-worshipping religion.

Definition of Paganism:

A polytheistic or pantheistic nature-worshipping religion.

This really does underline what I was trying to point out. The pope used the word "heidnisch", a word that in the German language can mean either "non-religious" or else "not belonging to the same religion". In history, the word has been used to describe Muslims, Jews, and followers of indegenious religion, for example in Africa or Asia. It is a word that has a generally negative connotation, being in a way synonym to "godless". To me, it somehow always brings to mind the image of the cannibalistic African tribe. It also is a slightly old-fashioned word.

I cannot read the pope's mind, but I seriously doubt that he was trying to either blame today's neopagan movement for the artrocities of the Nazi regime, nor that he was comparing neopagans to Nazis.

It kinda reeks... yeah the Nazis were on some hyped-up bogus 'racial memory' trip, but the Pope should've been a great deal more careful in how he addressed this. Currying favour with Jews by (apparently) vilifying modern Pagans is pretty crude stuff. His years spent as a member of various authoritarian structures is not standing him in good stead on this one.

I can't believe I'm actually defending this pope, after all I had issues with the guy when he was still bishop and cardinal in Germany, but those accusations are wrong.
German pagans refer to themselves as Paganisten, not Heiden. The word the pope used didn't refer to the neopagan movement but to a heathen ideology.

I can't believe I'm actually defending this pope, after all I had issues with the guy when he was still bishop and cardinal in Germany, but those accusations are wrong.
German pagans refer to themselves as Paganisten, not Heiden. The word the pope used didn't refer to the neopagan movement but to a heathen ideology.
Who is it that refers to themselves as 'Asatru'? I thought those were the German Pagans...

Who is it that refers to themselves as 'Asatru'? I thought those were the German Pagans...

Well, google says that Asartu is a new pagan sect, but doesn't give much geographical information. In fact, the first link points to Australia...

Well, google says that Asartu is a new pagan sect, but doesn't give much geographical information. In fact, the first link points to Australia...
You're smart. I'm not as smart. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. :cool:

Let's assume for a moment that he used the term "heathen". Still wrong, because, in this case, he blamed atheists. In both scenarios, he's attacking other religions without any right to it. Bear in mind that, agreeing with Rain here, they don't say things without thinking it out. If he keeps on, I'll start spreading rumors about his sexuality. Someone once said: "The only thing standing between man and God is organized religion."

Let's assume for a moment that he used the term "heathen". Still wrong, because, in this case, he blamed atheists. In both scenarios, he's attacking other religions without any right to it. Bear in mind that, agreeing with Rain here, they don't say things without thinking it out. If he keeps on, I'll start spreading rumors about his sexuality. Someone once said: "The only thing standing between man and God is organized religion."

Why assume? He did use the word "heidnisch". "Heide" and "heathen" even have the same roots in German and English...
And he wasn't even refering to heathens or atheists or pagans directly, his words were "a new heathen ideology".
If he had blamed Communism of being heathen, on exactly the same grounds and with those same words, would you have contradicted as much?

Why assume? He did use the word "heidnisch". "Heide" and "heathen" even have the same roots in German and English...
And he wasn't even refering to heathens or atheists or pagans directly, his words were "a new heathen ideology".
If he had blamed Communism of being heathen, on exactly the same grounds and with those same words, would you have contradicted as much?

I'm a communist, but let's pretend it's something bad for the sake of the argument. Better yet, let's assume he blames SOCIALISM on atheism. Still false because socialism was a principle based on something else AND still wrong because saying this kind of thing encourages backlash against the target group.

I'm a communist, but let's pretend it's something bad for the sake of the argument. Better yet, let's assume he blames SOCIALISM on atheism. Still false because socialism was a principle based on something else AND still wrong because saying this kind of thing encourages backlash against the target group.

I personally don't think that's anything bad, but socialism and communism have in practice always followed the famous "religion is opium for the masses".

He neither blames socialism nor national socialism on atheism directly. He uses the adjective "heathen" to better define the ideology and distance himself from it.
And, again, the target group were not modern pagans...

I personally don't think that's anything bad, but socialism and communism have in practice always followed the famous "religion is opium for the masses".

He neither blames socialism nor national socialism on atheism directly. He uses the adjective "heathen" to better define the ideology and distance himself from it.
And, again, the target group were not modern pagans...

The issue is: If they didn't pick us as the target group, why did he pick this word? If he picked "heathen", how could he not tell how it'd be interpreted? It was either deliberate or incompetent, and I don't believe in incompetence so easily.

The issue is: If they didn't pick us as the target group, why did he pick this word? If he picked "heathen", how could he not tell how it'd be interpreted? It was either deliberate or incompetent, and I don't believe in incompetence so easily.
By now it should really have been clarified that the Pope didn't pick any nowaday pagans, neo-pagans, heathen, neo-heathens, or for that matter, asatru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81satr%C3%BA) as a "target group" - he directly targeted the Nazis and their godless (neo)heathen agenda and what happened in Germany and Europe during the times of the 3rd Reich and World War II.

Man, that's just like equaling a present-day German like me to a Nazi-German from over 70 years ago - it does not apply and thus makes no sense whatsoever.

And don't be so nitpicking about his choice of wording - the message was clear. And please don't forget that he is neither a lawyer nor a politician - he's the religious leader of a billion people. As long as they understand what he meant (his Jewish adressees got the message), it's fine.

It's not like he called for a 4th Crusade or something. His message was of peace and understanding, respect and tolerance to be spread among the peoples and religions of the world. That is what matters, simple as that.

I believe Asatru is a paganistic religion based on the Norse Pantheon and some beliefs. As to where the Norse are (were), dont ask me. :) I do however consider myself somewhat knowledgable on the topic of Paganism seeing as I am Wiccan. :eek: Yes, you heard that right, Wiccan, :D

By the way, Ratzinger is an ass. Thats my secular opinion. My religious opinion is that he is a big ass. ;)

EDIT: I didn't realize that the previous poster defined Asatru, and I was correct in saying Asatru = Norse.

By now it should really have been clarified that the Pope didn't pick any nowaday pagans, neo-pagans, heathen, neo-heathens, or for that matter, asatru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81satr%C3%BA) as a "target group" - he directly targeted the Nazis and their godless (neo)heathen agenda and what happened in Germany and Europe during the times of the 3rd Reich and World War II.

Man, that's just like equaling a present-day German like me to a Nazi-German from over 70 years ago - it does not apply and thus makes no sense whatsoever.

And don't be so nitpicking about his choice of wording - the message was clear. And please don't forget that he is neither a lawyer nor a politician - he's the religious leader of a billion people. As long as they understand what he meant (his Jewish adressees got the message), it's fine.

It's not like he called for a 4th Crusade or something. His message was of peace and understanding, respect and tolerance to be spread among the peoples and religions of the world. That is what matters, simple as that.

Yes. His message was perfectly clear.

His message was to point the finger at the Nazi's (who based much of thier beliefs on pagan-esque philosophy.)

However, he does not apologize for the Churches involvment in assisting known war ciminals excape to South America after WW2.

Pointing the finger and hiding the truth, and using thier religion to direct the attention from thier crimes, is what the Church has always been about.

Hippocrasy made paramount.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0504730.htm

The pope in an attempt to make peace with Jews has blamed the holocaust on neo-pagans.

Way to wriggle out of the responsibility - after the Vatican ignored what was happening and this Pope was actually in the Hitler Youth we now find it was the Pagans what done it.

And people ask me why I'm not keen on Christianity!
He has some truth to his words. The ideaological godfather of fascism, Frederich Nietzche, thought Christianity as a religion where the weak fed from the strong. Hitler wasn't fond of it, either. The SS, in addition to Hitler's ideaological enforcers, were also a cult of ancient German mythology. The Nazis actually found excuses to kill as many Christian clergy as possible. Now I'm not fond of Benedict XVI, but he's right, here.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0504730.htm

The pope in an attempt to make peace with Jews has blamed the holocaust on neo-pagans.

Way to wriggle out of the responsibility - after the Vatican ignored what was happening and this Pope was actually in the Hitler Youth we now find it was the Pagans what done it.

And people ask me why I'm not keen on Christianity!

Ummm...do not confuse the Pope with Christianity. The Pope is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church, only one small segment of Christianity.

Ummm...do not confuse the Pope with Christianity. The Pope is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church, only one small segment of Christianity.
The Pope of the Catholic Church is the earthly leader of Christianity. Just don't confuse Benedict-Ratzinger with the Pope of the Catholic Church.

People here are really wasting their time trying to find out what he may have really meant. This way of speaking has usual method for years. He truly the mastered the double-talk and other deceptive word usages while "Prefect of the Congegation... Certainly his own religion did not exist in any dominant form during the war so I don't see how he is excusing himself or any such claims.

The Pope of the Catholic Church is the earthly leader of Christianity.

According to whom?? And since WHEN??
episcopalians are Christian, they do not acknowledge the Pope's leadership. Baptists are another Christian sect that does not acknowledge the Pope, or his leadership. There are plenty of others. Only the Roman Catholic Church acknowledges the Pope's leadership, because, in fact, that is what the Pope is...the leader of The Roman Catholic Church...not all of christianity. Catholicism is one small segment of the entirety of Christianity.

He has some truth to his words. The ideaological godfather of fascism, Frederich Nietzche, thought Christianity as a religion where the weak fed from the strong. Hitler wasn't fond of it, either. The SS, in addition to Hitler's ideaological enforcers, were also a cult of ancient German mythology. The Nazis actually found excuses to kill as many Christian clergy as possible. Now I'm not fond of Benedict XVI, but he's right, here.If Nietzsche is the godfather of fascism, then only if fascism is a bastard-child.
Hitler didn't give a damn about religion, but he wasn't a pagan. It was Goebbels and Himmler that were the main proponents of a Germanic cult. The Nazis didn't find anymore "excuses" to kill clergy than they found for other groups. They hunted them because there was a lot of resistance in those, which was why they were hated by the Nazis. You could easily survive being Christian in the 3rd Reich. In fact, there was even a sect of Christians that worshipped Hitler as the messiah...

I love how Benedict seems to want to avoid being criticized for his being in the Hitler Youth, yet tries to blame the Nazi's hatred for Jews on neopaganism.... Way to go, you jackass.

I love how Benedict seems to want to avoid being criticized for his being in the Hitler Youth, yet tries to blame the Nazi's hatred for Jews on neopaganism.... Way to go, you jackass.

I suppose then that you completely discredited the posts that try and try again to explain that he was perhaps forced to join the Youth? Y'see, in Nazi Germany, if you were a minor you had to join the Hitler Youth, whether you liked it or not. If you didn't, not only would you put yourself and your family under government suspicion, but you'd most likely get yourself "removed".

He wants to avoid it because he wanted no part of it. He was a Catholic, remember? Catholics were just as oppressed as Jews.

If Nietzsche is the godfather of fascism, then only if fascism is a bastard-child.
Just a little bit. Nietzche may have not been too keen about the Nazi state, but he was the first to advance some key ideas, such as that of superior races, the ubermenchen, and the physically fit dominating the weak.
Hitler didn't give a damn about religion, but he wasn't a pagan. It was Goebbels and Himmler that were the main proponents of a Germanic cult. The Nazis didn't find anymore "excuses" to kill clergy than they found for other groups. They hunted them because there was a lot of resistance in those, which was why they were hated by the Nazis. You could easily survive being Christian in the 3rd Reich. In fact, there was even a sect of Christians that worshipped Hitler as the messiah...
There were obviously Christians in Germany. They were the hardest to kill because, well, what German wasn't a Christian? But notice how I just said Christian clergy. They could be killed and replaced with state-approved clergy. Also, he found religion in the end, in the form of reading German mythology, anyhow.It is my belief that he eventually wanted to get rid of all religions, and replace it with a pagan mystism. I'm sure Hitler was well aware that Christianity stemmed from Judaism, anyhow.

I suppose then that you completely discredited the posts that try and try again to explain that he was perhaps forced to join the Youth? Y'see, in Nazi Germany, if you were a minor you had to join the Hitler Youth, whether you liked it or not. If you didn't, not only would you put yourself and your family under government suspicion, but you'd most likely get yourself "removed".

He wants to avoid it because he wanted no part of it. He was a Catholic, remember? Catholics were just as oppressed as Jews.If this is true, then why doesn't he just freakin' drop it? If no one speaks, few remember. If he'd stop reminding me that he was once in HY, I probably couldn't give a damn. Instead, he's trying to get the eyes off him by pointing fingers at other people.

Not to mention the fact that he was only perhaps forced to join. He also could be another HY who was brainwashed with the ideals of Hitler and is trying to get away with it. I'm willing to bet some soldiers tried to plead temporary insanity or something to get away with it.

Then again, perhaps I'm being too cynical of him.

If this is true, then why doesn't he just freakin' drop it? If no one speaks, few remember. If he'd stop reminding me that he was once in HY, I probably couldn't give a damn. Instead, he's trying to get the eyes off him by pointing fingers at other people.

Not to mention the fact that he was only perhaps forced to join. He also could be another HY who was brainwashed with the ideals of Hitler and is trying to get away with it. I'm willing to bet some soldiers tried to plead temporary insanity or something to get away with it.

Then again, perhaps I'm being too cynical of him.

Well, I won't claim either way of the matter, but, assuming that he was Catholic in his childhood, and, as Catholics were persecuted, it would be a safe bet that he joined forcibly. But that's speculation and nothing more.

Apparently, so is grammar and common sense. What's your point?


And the other 90% or so were Muslims - that doesn't really work, does it?
AT DEXPLAIN THE !$TH
ARRGH NUMBER LOCK! :mp5:

That dosent explain 14thSS?

If this is true, then why doesn't he just freakin' drop it? If no one speaks, few remember. If he'd stop reminding me that he was once in HY, I probably couldn't give a damn. Instead, he's trying to get the eyes off him by pointing fingers at other people.

Not to mention the fact that he was only perhaps forced to join. He also could be another HY who was brainwashed with the ideals of Hitler and is trying to get away with it. I'm willing to bet some soldiers tried to plead temporary insanity or something to get away with it.

Then again, perhaps I'm being too cynical of him.

Why doesn't he drop it? Because every time he shows up, someone says "But you were a Hitler Youth..." - and instead of holding his tongue, he actually acknowledges his résumé and doesn't lie about it.

Believe me, you definitely created a lot of trouble for yourself and your family when you declined to become a Hitler Youth.

You're eventually not cynical about it - you apparently don't know German history. There was no "Catch 22" in the 3rd Reich. If you were considered insane (and if only temporary), yes, maybe you were released from the armed forces - and you definitely ended up in a concentration or death camp. Now, how's that improving your situation?

AT DEXPLAIN THE !$TH
ARRGH NUMBER LOCK! :mp5:

That dosent explain 14thSS?
The 14th (1st Galician) consisted mostly of Ukrainian and ethnic German volunteers from the area around Lemberg. While the Ukraine predominantly was Russian-orthodox or even Greek-orthodox - I honestly don't know enough about the faith of the members of the 14th to further this point one way or the other.
(And you meant CAPS lock?)

The 14th (1st Galician) consisted mostly of Ukrainian and ethnic German volunteers from the area around Lemberg. While the Ukraine predominantly was Russian-orthodox or even Greek-orthodox - I honestly don't know enough about the faith of the members of the 14th to further this point one way or the other.
(And you meant CAPS lock?)
Nope The Caps was deliberate the Number lock was not.

I was not pressing shift when i typed.

They were Catholic and they were VolksDeutch(sp)(Ethnic Germans) and Ukranians