NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/08/26/Portman_softwood20050826.html

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U.S. Trade Ambassador says Canada misunderstood Washington
CBC News

The U.S. Trade Representative said he believes Canada misunderstood the American position on the most recent ruling regarding the NAFTA cross-border softwood dispute.

Ambassador Rob Portman told CBC News in Washington Friday that the recent ruling on NAFTA -- a ruling that favoured Canada's position -- was irrelevant because it was based on a decision that had been superceded.

Portman says the Canadian government should have understood that the U.S. would take that position, as he felt the U.S. view had been commmunicated to Ottawa.

Portman was made U.S. Trade Ambassador in May: "We've now spent over 20 years now litigating, and in my confirmation hearings I talked about the fact that this has been litigated to death. And it's probably time for us to sit down and in a serious way and determine how we can resolve our differences in a way that's long-lasting that can provide some predictability and certainty to the industry on both sides of the border.

Portman said in July he felt both sides were close to having a constructive dialogue: "The U.S. submitted a proposal that actually went toward the Canadian point of view, we waited for a counter offer, we did not get one because the Canadian officials indicated they needed to go back to Canada and look at the issue from the perspective of the provinces as well as the industry and we're still waiting for the counter offer."

The former Ohio State representative in Congress said Canada benefits tremendously from NAFTA: "In fact the Canadian trade surplus with the U.S. is over 100 billion dollars a year.

He said: "Our differences relate to subsidies, they relate to the fact that we have different systems in terms of our timber management in the United States and in Canada...But my sense is that it's a fairly simple distinction -- on the Canadian side there's more of a government controlled system and a government price-controlled system -- and on the U.S. side it's more of a free-market system."

The U.S. Trade Ambassador said Canada will have to move to more of a market-based system: "What we need to get at is how to, in my view, come up with a more market based system where we can see compromise on both sides and resolve this dispute."
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I called it, I called it six months ago or more. They're going to ignore the rulings in our favour, and they won't talk to us at all unless we abandon OUR way of doing things and do things THEIR way. What a bastard!

Screw doing business with people who don't live up to their promises, have to be taken to court, and then still refuse to do what's right, and turn around and try to tell US how to conduct our business affairs?

To Hell with Rob Portman.
To Hell with George Bush.
To Hell with the con job of NAFTA and the original Free Trade Pact.
To Hell with all of it. Keep it. I don't want nothin' to do with you skinflint double-dealing LIARS, thieves, and thugs. I'd sooner starve than trade with jerkwaters who have the temerity to suggest that a sovereign nation do things the "American way". God knows if all the countries in the world did things the American way, there'd be no damn world left.

Pay up, get lost, stay away. I am sick half to death of this perennial bullshit percolating up from south of our most unfortunate border.

The arrogance is astounding isn't it?

The arrogance is astounding isn't it?
I'm sick of their two-facedness - how can they honestly be at all surprised that their name is mud all over the planet?

If you imagine that ANY country's government is looking out for anyting but itself, then you're under a very bad impression. As much as any country (including Canada) would like to claim it wants what is best of the world, first things always come first...and that first thing is always itself.

This political science idea is called realism, and is one of three major modern theories of governance. I highly suggest you read into it.

Please do not assume that the US government is going to let Canada threaten it's interests, legal or otherwise...nor that Canada would do any different in the US's position. Rather, if you want to stick it to the US, you have to convince it's government that following the NAFTA ruling is more in it's interest then a few million acres of timber.

"Until then," said atop a Clidesdale, "get off your high horse."

Well, if you think it's 'realism' to try telling a trading partner how to run it's affairs while at the same time welching on deals that we've had to take you to court over, and those courts have agreed that you're welching on those deals, then I'll take the 'fantasy' of living up to treaties - and not the new American 'reality' of picking and choosing to honour only the parts of agreements that run in their favour.

Fat chance telling me to get off my high-horse. Get off your own, you cheapskates

Please do not assume that the US government is going to let Canada threaten it's interests, legal or otherwise...nor that Canada would do any different in the US's position.

Well if retaliatory trade restrictions are a threat to US interests then they are powerless to stop them without negotiations and those won't be happening anytime soon.

Look mom! I'm in an anti-America thread!!!

Look mom! I'm in an anti-America thread!!!
Anti-criminal thread. I'm serious here.

*snip*

Let me give you an appropriate anology. You have a trade contract with this man. According to the contract, if you break the deal without 3 months advanced warning, you pay a hefty penalty. You go and break it anyways without bothering to tell the guy in advance. But you don't want to pay the penalty. So you go to court to contest your signature on the document and the document itself. The courts rule that you still have to pay.

You refuse. Instead, you argue more, even going so far as to say the courts had no right to decide that way. You tell the guy that he should forget the contract, proposing another one that favors you heavily.

Who in his right mind will ever deal with you again?

Big frickin' BUMP


This deserves to be seen.

Anti-criminal thread. I'm serious here.Exactly.


This is just another thread where the awfull truth about themselves as a nation is ignored, in a "let's hope it will just go away" fashion.

Timber anyone?

The US not sticking to signed agreements and arbitration rulings, proving what is already suspected, that their credibility and honour of a good name are non-existent, only to turn around and demand that others act like them, since the US cannot possibly be the one at fault, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

That's unpossible! :rolleyes:

This is bullshit. There is no justified reason that the US is doing this other than to get back at Canada for not kissing up to Bush over the past 5 years. This is an insult to free trade and international agreements, and is yet another example of the protectionist, economic ignorance that permeates the Congress and White House.

Free trade is great and brings considerable benefit to those involved, but we have to live up to our agreements or it's just another sham. This is as outrageous as the xenophobic, protectionist response to the CNOOC/Unocal deal (no US companies receive special loans and subsidies from the government, no sir... :rolleyes: )

Cry about it.

It won't change anything. Is it right? No. But can you change it? No. Does it effect you personally? Not really.

It won't change anything. Is it right? No. But can you change it? No. Does it effect you personally? Not really.

What affects one sector of the economy, no matter how small, has a ripple effect throughout the rest. This is especially true in Canada, where softwood lumber is one of their biggest exports. Our policies are effectively slowing down their economy, and a slower Canadian economy begins to rub off on our exports and slow ours down, albeit in a small amount.

If it were up to me I'd give you your five billion, but as it stands now I'm a little too low on cash. Write the Canadian government and the US government. Maybe they can come to an agreement.

If it were up to me I'd give you your five billion, but as it stands now I'm a little too low on cash. Write the Canadian government and the US government. Maybe they can come to an agreement.

No, because this is a petty retaliation be the US government against Canada. They aren't going to back down regardless of right or wrong, because Canada can't do very much other than lobby the WTO to impose sanctions. Either the US citizens have to step in (which they won't, because most don't care) and force the administration to back down, or the WTO has to take action.

No, because this is a petty retaliation be the US government against Canada. They aren't going to back down regardless of right or wrong, because Canada can't do very much other than lobby the WTO to impose sanctions. Either the US citizens have to step in (which they won't, because most don't care) and force the administration to back down, or the WTO has to take action.
Like the administration cares what I think. If they did our military would be in Sudan right now, not Iraq.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/08/26/Portman_softwood20050826.html

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He said: "Our differences relate to subsidies, they relate to the fact that we have different systems in terms of our timber management in the United States and in Canada...But my sense is that it's a fairly simple distinction -- on the Canadian side there's more of a government controlled system and a government price-controlled system -- and on the U.S. side it's more of a free-market system."

The U.S. Trade Ambassador said Canada will have to move to more of a market-based system: "What we need to get at is how to, in my view, come up with a more market based system where we can see compromise on both sides and resolve this dispute."
Y'know, given that it's a free trade act and the idea is to promote free trade between countries, what he's saying makes perfect sense as truly free market companies would find it nearly impossible to compete with subsidied companies. You literally cannot have free trade when a company is reliant on the government to give it an edge over the competition. Just because you like giving taxpayer money to softwood lumber companies doesn't mean that it passes under the North American Free Trade Act.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/08/26/Portman_softwood20050826.html

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U.S. Trade Ambassador says Canada misunderstood Washington
CBC News

The U.S. Trade Representative said he believes Canada misunderstood the American position on the most recent ruling regarding the NAFTA cross-border softwood dispute.

Ambassador Rob Portman told CBC News in Washington Friday that the recent ruling on NAFTA -- a ruling that favoured Canada's position -- was irrelevant because it was based on a decision that had been superceded.

Portman says the Canadian government should have understood that the U.S. would take that position, as he felt the U.S. view had been commmunicated to Ottawa.

Portman was made U.S. Trade Ambassador in May: "We've now spent over 20 years now litigating, and in my confirmation hearings I talked about the fact that this has been litigated to death. And it's probably time for us to sit down and in a serious way and determine how we can resolve our differences in a way that's long-lasting that can provide some predictability and certainty to the industry on both sides of the border.

Portman said in July he felt both sides were close to having a constructive dialogue: "The U.S. submitted a proposal that actually went toward the Canadian point of view, we waited for a counter offer, we did not get one because the Canadian officials indicated they needed to go back to Canada and look at the issue from the perspective of the provinces as well as the industry and we're still waiting for the counter offer."

The former Ohio State representative in Congress said Canada benefits tremendously from NAFTA: "In fact the Canadian trade surplus with the U.S. is over 100 billion dollars a year.

He said: "Our differences relate to subsidies, they relate to the fact that we have different systems in terms of our timber management in the United States and in Canada...But my sense is that it's a fairly simple distinction -- on the Canadian side there's more of a government controlled system and a government price-controlled system -- and on the U.S. side it's more of a free-market system."

The U.S. Trade Ambassador said Canada will have to move to more of a market-based system: "What we need to get at is how to, in my view, come up with a more market based system where we can see compromise on both sides and resolve this dispute."
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I called it, I called it six months ago or more. They're going to ignore the rulings in our favour, and they won't talk to us at all unless we abandon OUR way of doing things and do things THEIR way. What a bastard!

Screw doing business with people who don't live up to their promises, have to be taken to court, and then still refuse to do what's right, and turn around and try to tell US how to conduct our business affairs?

To Hell with Rob Portman.
To Hell with George Bush.
To Hell with the con job of NAFTA and the original Free Trade Pact.
To Hell with all of it. Keep it. I don't want nothin' to do with you skinflint double-dealing LIARS, thieves, and thugs. I'd sooner starve than trade with jerkwaters who have the temerity to suggest that a sovereign nation do things the "American way". God knows if all the countries in the world did things the American way, there'd be no damn world left.

Pay up, get lost, stay away. I am sick half to death of this perennial bullshit percolating up from south of our most unfortunate border.

This is what happens when you don't want to pay for your own national defense. You end up being buttfucked by the nation that does.

Lesson to Canada: Stop being a whiney bitch, and become a real country istead of relying on the US for everything. Until you do, the US will just do whatever it damn well pleases, and you'll have to take it and like it.

Like the administration cares what I think. If they did our military would be in Sudan right now, not Iraq.

Bush doesn't believe in intervention unless there's money involved.

If you imagine that ANY country's government is looking out for anyting but itself, then you're under a very bad impression. As much as any country (including Canada) would like to claim it wants what is best of the world, first things always come first...and that first thing is always itself.

This political science idea is called realism, and is one of three major modern theories of governance. I highly suggest you read into it.

Please do not assume that the US government is going to let Canada threaten it's interests, legal or otherwise...nor that Canada would do any different in the US's position.
There is no evidence that any country would do exactly the same thing the United States has.

Rather, if you want to stick it to the US, you have to convince it's government that following the NAFTA ruling is more in it's interest then a few million acres of timber.
Then what is the point of having NAFTA?

Like the administration cares what I think. If they did our military would be in Sudan right now, not Iraq.
Did you write and suggest that? *just curious*

This is what happens when you don't want to pay for your own national defense. You end up being buttfucked by the nation that does.
What does national defense have to do with softwood lumber?

Lesson to Canada: Stop being a whiney bitch, and become a real country istead of relying on the US for everything. Until you do, the US will just do whatever it damn well pleases, and you'll have to take it and like it.

When you enter an agreement, you have to abide by it. This isn't a playground game where the strongest nation gets to do whatever it wants and everyone else has to play by their rules! Billions of dollars are at stake for Canada, and the US has to abide by NAFTA or add another black mark to its reputation...along with ruining our efforts in free trade.

When you enter an agreement, you have to abide by it. This isn't a playground game where the strongest nation gets to do whatever it wants and everyone else has to play by their rules! Billions of dollars are at stake for Canada, and the US has to abide by NAFTA or add another black mark to its reputation...along with ruining our efforts in free trade.

Actually, yes it is. And anyway, Canada does it's damdest to sully the US's reputation everyday, softwood lumber regardless, so I don't think the US cares.

If you don't like it, sell your lumber somewhere else.

along with ruining our efforts in free trade.
Calling it free trade when one side is subsidized by the government is at best folly. This goes for US subidies as well. *cough*farmers*cough*.

Yes, I'm rather ashamed of my country at the moment. Or at least our current administration.
I suppose it is true that it is hard to make a good agreement between two countries of different economic ideas. However, Canada and the US are close enough that it isn't that big an issue, and while it is hard, it is not impossible. There is no reason why the US should not stand behind a previously made agreement (that's still in effect) however, so I agree that there is a serious issue.

Bad Bush administration! :gundge: But the citizens really can't do anything to a president in his second term. We have no voice at the moment. It is an unfortunate situation to be in.

Calling it free trade when one side is subsidized by the government is at best folly. This goes for US subidies as well. *cough*farmers*cough*.

I know. I support the abolition of all subsidies on both sides, and making them all compete free of government help. Farmers are America's biggest welfare recipients, and we need to cut them off. It would save billions and make the market freer and more liquid.

Did you write and suggest that? *just curious*
I've contacted my congressman about it. I got a form letter back that was obviously not written in response to my concerns.

Actually, yes it is. And anyway, Canada does it's damdest to sully the US's reputation everyday, softwood lumber regardless, so I don't think the US cares.If you don't like it, sell your lumber somewhere else.

This has nothing to do with relations. The US entered an agreement, and is violating it by their policies (Canada isn't blameless either). However, since Canada doesn't have anywhere near the influence of the US, the US seems to believe it can push its policies on Canada and violate agreements with impunity just because it is bigger and stronger. That is arrogance, and the US cannot allow itself to be associated with it.

This has nothing to do with relations. The US entered an agreement, and is violating it by their policies (Canada isn't blameless either). However, since Canada doesn't have anywhere near the influence of the US, the US seems to believe it can push its policies on Canada and violate agreements with impunity just because it is bigger and stronger. That is arrogance, and the US cannot allow itself to be associated with it.

I've bolded the salient point.

As I said, if Canada doesn't like it, sell the lumber elsewhere. Frankly, Canada does nothing but sit up north of the US complaining about the US's behaviour, but it never actually bothers to do anything to disentangle itself.

Canada is fucked, because, for the past fifty years, it has blithely relied upon the US for a great many things, and now the US holds all the cards. The US doesn't get away with this much shit with Europe. And Why? Becuase the Europeans are more self sufficient and have the wherewithal to retaliate in a meaningful fashion.

I would also like to point out that a great many number of canadians have spent the past several years whining about the US trade deficit "because it effects out economy too." So actually, you would think that softwood lumber tarrifs would be popular up there.

The only people arguing FOR the US position make such lovely points.

Take this one from Haloman:
Cry about it.

It won't change anything. Is it right? No. But can you change it? No. Does it effect you personally? Not really.

Or these two by A Flintoff:
This is what happens when you don't want to pay for your own national defense. You end up being buttfucked by the nation that does.

Lesson to Canada: Stop being a whiney bitch, and become a real country istead of relying on the US for everything. Until you do, the US will just do whatever it damn well pleases, and you'll have to take it and like it.

Actually, yes it is. And anyway, Canada does it's damdest to sully the US's reputation everyday, softwood lumber regardless, so I don't think the US cares.

If you don't like it, sell your lumber somewhere else.

Brilliant debate, guys! [/sarcasm]

Ravenshrike makes the best (though feeble) point about subsidised industry is not exactly free trade...but that doesn't exempt the US from reneging on its past obligations.

Just the fact no one can offer a serious justification of what the US is doing, there probably isn't one.

Just the fact no one can offer a serious justification of what the US is doing, there probably isn't one.

Nobody can, because the US is in the signed, official and legal NAFTA (that was passed by Congress) with Canada. This isn't a goodwill "verbal" agreement where we agree to eliminate tariffs for the good of both parties and the only think keeping it in place is our desire to do so. Effectively, it's the law of the land and we can't break it without penalty. The US has to hold up to its agreements, and its position in the matter is indefensible. We're breaking the law, plain and simple.

Canada is fucked
Truer words have never been spoken. We should have always assumed the worst in our neighbour and primary trading partner. Seeing as that's all we've ever experienced.

Screw America's military. We don't want or need your 'protection', which come to think of it sounds much like 'mob' protection, IMO. And anyway, Flintoff, this isn't about your military 'protection', or about what myriad other shitty, lopsided, uneven relationships America has fostered throughout the world - this is about honouring your agreements, obviously something of little apparent concern or importance to you and yours.

Big bloody surprise, coming from a nation of snake-oil salesmen. And if you don't like hearing Canadians speaking out on what dicks your leaders are, tough-o. Shape up, or shut up already.

*Edit: and if we wanted to conduct our business like you do, we would. We don't, so cope. We will not become like you in order to discuss your past obligations to our treaties. For the Trade Ambassador to say as much is an incredible frickin' slap in our faces. And totally unwarranted.

You guys aren't winning any friends in all this.

I think A Flintoff is from the UK.

I think A Flintoff is from the UK.
You wouldn't know it to hear him.

The only people arguing FOR the US position make such lovely points.

Take this one from Haloman:


Or these two by A Flintoff:




Brilliant debate, guys! [/sarcasm]

Ravenshrike makes the best (though feeble) point about subsidised industry is not exactly free trade...but that doesn't exempt the US from reneging on its past obligations.

Just the fact no one can offer a serious justification of what the US is doing, there probably isn't one.

I wasn't debating. I was just telling you how it is. Ignore the facts if you like, but there you are.

Is the US failing to live up to its promises? Yes. But in the long run they were promises made to Canadians, so no-one cares whether or not they are kept. No-one whatsoever.

Anyway, I think canadians have made it abundantly clear that they despise the US in any case - and have done so repeatedly over the past decade - so you can hardly expect the US to give two shits about this.

You wouldn't know it to hear him.
I wouldn't, but I saw his Ashes thread. Cricket. Need I say more?

Ummm...maybe something 'relevant' here too... yeah, breaking treaties is bad.

You wouldn't know it to hear him.

Surprise, suprise, English people hate whiney Canada too. Mostly because recently you have been dealing some of your holier than thou attitude our way.

Is the US failing to live up to its promises? Yes. But in the long run they were promises made to Canadians, so no-one cares whether or not they are kept. No-one whatsoever.

We had no problem intervening when Germany broke it's promises (read, international treaties) and sunk the Lusitania, or the North Koreans invaded the South in violation of the agreements made. By that logic, we should be allowed to do whatever the hell we want as long as we're stronger than our enemy. What happens when we aren't the strongest anymore?

I wasn't debating. I was just telling you how it is. Ignore the facts if you like, but there you are.

Is the US failing to live up to its promises? Yes. But in the long run they were promises made to Canadians, so no-one cares whether or not they are kept. No-one whatsoever.

Anyway, I think canadians have made it abundantly clear that they despise the US in any case - and have done so repeatedly over the past decade - so you can hardly expect the US to give two shits about this.
Likes, dislikes PR and opinion polls aren't even close to being a reason for violating trade laws. And let me make this clear:

THESE AREN'T PROMISES, BROKEN OR OTHERWISE. THESE ARE INTERNATIONAL TREATIES. THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE.

Screw America's military. We don't want or need your 'protection', which come to think of it sounds much like 'mob' protection, IMO. And anyway, Flintoff, this isn't about your military 'protection', or about what myriad other shitty, lopsided, uneven relationships America has fostered throughout the world - this is about honouring your agreements, obviously something of little apparent concern or importance to you and yours.


Yes you do. You wouldn't be getting so stroppy with Denmark otherwise. Every nation needs some form of national defense, except Canada it seems.

Surprise, suprise, English people hate whiney Canada too. Mostly because recently you have been dealing some of your holier than thou attitude our way.
Surprise, surprise, lapdogs and Bush apologists turn up in the damndest places. You aren't a tenth the country you were before you gave up on the world.

Likes, dislikes PR and opinion polls aren't even close to being a reason for violating trade laws. And let me make this clear:

THESE AREN'T PROMISES, BROKEN OR OTHERWISE. THESE ARE INTERNATIONAL TREATIES. THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE.

Treaties with Canada don't count. Even the Canadian courts have said as much.

Surprise, surprise, lapdogs and Bush apologists turn up in the damndest places. You aren't a tenth the country you were before you gave up on the world.

By their logic, the US, China, India, and anyone else stronger than the UK could walk all over their agreements because they aren't strong enough to merit adhering to.

Surprise, surprise, lapdogs and Bush apologists turn up in the damndest places. You aren't a tenth the country you were before you gave up on the world.

This is exactly what I mean. This is why no-one cares.

And like I said, if you don't like dealing with the US, don't. Or do. But either way, stop crying.

Treaties with Canada don't count. Even the Canadian courts have said as much.
Wow, nice world you live in. So above-board, open and honest. :rolleyes:

By their logic, the US, China, India, and anyone else stronger than the UK could walk all over their agreements because they aren't strong enough to merit adhering to.

Not really, because the UK is part of Europe, and Europe is independant enough to retaliate effectively. Which is why the US backed down over the Banana thingy.

Bush and his cronies are just out to steal Canada's oil. Do you think America would give a rats ass about Irraq, Canada, or Venezual if they didn't have oil?

This is exactly what I mean. This is why no-one cares.

And like I said, if you don't like dealing with the US, don't. Or do. But either way, stop crying.
Stop coming off like your stink ain't shit. You have no problem with liars and thieves and brigands because you don't have them as your next door neighbours. No, but wait - you English are the ones who put the screws to the Scots, the Welsh, and the Irish.

Whatever was I thinking? :rolleyes:

Not really, because the UK is part of Europe, and Europe is independant enough to retaliate effectively. Which is why the US backed down over the Banana thingy.

That's because it would hurt the entire EU, not just the UK, and was in violation of agreements signed between the countries. They were acting in the interests of the agreements, not the wellbeing of the UK.

Stop coming off like your stink ain't shit. You have no problem with liars and thieves and brigands because you don't have them as your next door neighbours. No, but wait - you English are the ones who put the screws to the Scots, the Welsh, and the Irish.

Whatever was I thinking? :rolleyes:


Considering "Great" Britain's colonial imperialist history it's no wonder they have no qualms about liars and thieves. Besides, who's the UK's strongest ally? :)

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/08/26/softwood-lumber-dispute0826.html
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CBC News
The war of words over Canada's softwood lumber dispute with the United States is heating up.

Federal cabinet ministers are defiant and unwavering in response to remarks by U.S. Ambassador David Wilkins that they stop their "emotional tirades" in the softwood lumber dispute.

Industry Minister David Emerson said Wilkins' comments, published Friday in the Ottawa Citizen, are hypocritical because they suggest Canada hasn't been serious about negotiating.

Emerson said Canadians may need to start gearing up for a trade war with the United States.

Ambassador Wilkins called on Canada to resume negotiations. His remarks followed Washington's announcement that it would ignore a NAFTA ruling in Canada's favour.

Wilkins said "Emotional press conferences are not going to settle the issue. Canada needs to come back to the bargaining table."

Trade Minister Jim Peterson will meet with Wilkins in the next ten days and press the point that Canada wants a long-term solution.

Industry Minister David Emerson said negotiations between the two countries have always been cynical. He said they've been close to a settlement many times, but Canada ends up hit with punitive duties and other actions intended to "force us to come to our knees" even though numerous legal rulings have swung Canada's way.

Emerson said "when we know this is a game the Americans play where heads they win, tails we lose, I think we have a right to be emotional."

Some cabinet ministers suggest retaliating with duties on U.S. exports, but Ambassador Wilkins warned Canada is risking a multi-pronged trade war.

Finance Minister Ralph Goodale said Canada needs to be strategic in ensuring any response is effective.

Trade Minister Jim Peterson said Washington should not confuse emotion with commitment and determination by Canadians to ensure the NAFTA is respected.

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Utterly reprehensible, and criminal, to boot. Americans, get your goddamn house in order. This is disgraceful coming from the country that bills itself so highly, at every turn.

That's because it would hurt the entire EU, not just the UK, and was in violation of agreements signed between the countries. They were acting in the interests of the agreements, not the wellbeing of the UK.

But there it is. You can't hurt the UK without hurting the EU. (It being one of the big four).

That's how it works. Just like we line up with the French when they have trade disputes with the US.

This way, the US has to respect the deals it makes with us.

Stop coming off like your stink ain't shit. You have no problem with liars and thieves and brigands because you don't have them as your next door neighbours. No, but wait - you English are the ones who put the screws to the Scots, the Welsh, and the Irish.

Whatever was I thinking? :rolleyes:

Just listen to yourself. Has it ever occured to you that because most Canadians act this way whenever anyone disagrees with them, this is exactly why you get screwed in trade deals.

This is why no-one cares. At all.

Just listen to yourself. Has it ever occured to you that because most Canadians act this way whenever anyone disagrees with them, this is exactly why you get screwed in trade deals.

This is why no-one cares. At all.

Listen carefully, flinty.

We have a bilateral agreement with the US called NAFTA. The US is violating said agreement and has stated it will not honour the recent ruling. NAFTA for all intents and purposes is finished unless a setlement is reached. In the meantime, and possibly into perpetuity, US goods will face retaliatory trade restrictions.

I hope that's frank and non-melodramatic enough to sink in.

I say we put a plug in the lines that feed the USA oil (since we are the #1 source of oil for the USA) and while we are at it, lets plug the fresh water and the electricity.. lets see how smug the Americans get then! Tons of other countries would be only too happy to buy Canadian resources. Canada after all has more natural resources than ANY other country in the entire world. Fuck them!

Listen carefully, flinty.

We have a bilateral agreement with the US called NAFTA. The US is violating said agreement and has stated it will not honour the recent ruling. NAFTA for all intents and purposes is finished unless a setlement is reached. In the meantime, and possibly into perpetuity, US goods will face retaliatory trade restrictions.

I hope that's frank and non-melodramatic enough to sink in.

Well I suppose NAFTA is finished then. Have fun trading with yourselves. I only mention this because of the vast amount of Canadian goods that flood the European market place.

I say we put a plug in the lines that feed the USA oil (since we are the #1 source of oil for the USA) and while we are at it, lets plug the fresh water and the electricity.. lets see how smug the Americans get then! Tons of other countries would be only too happy to buy Canadian resources. Canada after all has more natural resources than ANY other country in the entire world. Fuck them!

I like that plan. It would make everything including petrol cheaper.

Well I suppose NAFTA is finished then. Have fun trading with yourselves. I only mention this because of the vast amount of Canadian goods that flood the European market place.

The only reason Canada doesn't do a large amount of trading with other countries is because we were suppose to of had a deal with the USA. Believe me, if that falls through, other countries will flock to get trading agreements with Canada.

Its a conspiracy to make you so mad that you attack with your military. That way we'll have an excuse to "secure" all your oil wells, and rebuild your country with special attention to the structure of your new government. If you don't attack us with your military, that's ok. I'm sure you have some illegal weapons hidden somewhere.

I like that plan. It would make everything including petrol cheaper.
How so?

Well I suppose NAFTA is finished then. Have fun trading with yourselves. I only mention this because of the vast amount of Canadian goods that flood the European market place.

Well I don't think our remaining trading partners will abandon us having the backing of an international trading authority on an international mutally binding agreement while the US relies on a decision by a US panel.

Well I suppose NAFTA is finished then. Have fun trading with yourselves. I only mention this because of the vast amount of Canadian goods that flood the European market place.
I realize that you are just trying to provoke anger, but the reality is that something will be worked out. The fact remains that Canada gets 75% of its' imports from the US, so any major disruption in trade would hurt a good number of American businesses.

If anything, this dispute sends out a signal to the rest of the world that the US can and will violate treaties. The long term effect will be greater as America continues to rely more and more upon outside resources and raw materials.

Your snippy remarks, based on rhetoric, mean nothing to me and it if others ignore them, then you will just go away. Have a great day. :D

How so?

Well, take the case of Europe for example. We don't get our oil from Canada. It comes from Russia, The Middle East, Norway, the UK etc. If the canadians embargo the US, it's not like they'll have access to the Russian supplies (owing to where the pipelines are and whatnot) and the Canadians are going to have to sell there oil somewhere, ergo there will be surplus in Europe, and prices will fall.

Cry about it.

It won't change anything. Is it right? No. But can you change it? No. Does it effect you personally? Not really.

Um..

It should effect you personally. Do you know why American houses are expensive? Because the Americans put a tariff on Canadian softwood lumber since the American lumbers are more expensive than Canadians.

Which means us Canadians enjoy housing for a much lower price then our American brothers in the south.

So yes, it does effect you.

I realize that you are just trying to provoke anger, but the reality is that something will be worked out. The fact remains that Canada gets 75% of its' imports from the US, so any major disruption in trade would hurt a good number of American businesses.

If anything, this dispute sends out a signal to the rest of the world that the US can and will violate treaties. The long term effect will be greater as America continues to rely more and more upon outside resources and raw materials.

Your snippy remarks, based on rhetoric, mean nothing to me and it if others ignore them, then you will just go away. Have a great day. :D

90% of your exports go to the US. No-one else really trades with Canada. (Well the UK does buy bearskins from you for the Guards Regiments but I doubt you can employ 30,000,000 people doing that). But you know, go ahead, have the trade war. I am sure it will go swimmingly.

90% of your exports go to the US.

Actually it's 80%, but anyway, we can back out of NAFTA with 6 months notice. If we do that, other countries no doubt will be lining up to trade with Canada. As said before, Canada does have more natural resources than ANY other country in the world.

The only reason Canada doesn't do a large amount of trading with other countries is because we were suppose to of had a deal with the USA. Believe me, if that falls through, other countries will flock to get trading agreements with Canada.

No they won't. Canada is just too isolated to sell its stuff anywhere other than the US. And in any case, other countries already have agreement with each other that Canada is not part of. The UK cannot, for example, back away from it's EU commitments just because Canada now wants to trade.

Moreover, get used to lower prices, as you will be facing stiff competition from eastern europe and russia.

I say we put a plug in the lines that feed the USA oil (since we are the #1 source of oil for the USA) and while we are at it, lets plug the fresh water and the electricity.. lets see how smug the Americans get then! Tons of other countries would be only too happy to buy Canadian resources. Canada after all has more natural resources than ANY other country in the entire world. Fuck them!I like that plan. It would make everything including petrol cheaper.Bolding added for your comfort.Well, take the case of Europe for example. We don't get our oil from Canada. It comes from Russia, The Middle East, Norway, the UK etc. If the canadians embargo the US, it's not like they'll have access to the Russian supplies (owing to where the pipelines are and whatnot) and the Canadians are going to have to sell there oil somewhere, ergo there will be surplus in Europe, and prices will fall.
I don't mind about your oil prices lowering-claim that much. It's the "everything would be cheaper" bit. I don't think I have to spell this out for you, but if you insist, I will.

(and about the oil prices if Canada didn't sell it to the US... please. You think that's the way the price of oil is determined?)

Well, take the case of Europe for example. We don't get our oil from Canada. It comes from Russia, The Middle East, Norway, the UK etc. If the canadians embargo the US, it's not like they'll have access to the Russian supplies (owing to where the pipelines are and whatnot) and the Canadians are going to have to sell there oil somewhere, ergo there will be surplus in Europe, and prices will fall.


A linky (http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/canada.html) for j0o.

If it came to a an energy embargo, which I highly doubt, the US economy will be so badly affected any cost saving on gasoline in Europe will be eaten away by a slowdown in EU exports to the US.

No they won't. Canada is just too isolated to sell its stuff anywhere other than the US.

*LOL*, umm no we're not. Canada isn't exactly a land-locked country ya know. ;)

Bolding added for your comfort.
I don't mind about your oil prices lowering-claim that much. It's the "everything would be cheaper" bit. I don't think I have to spell this out for you, but if you insist, I will.

(and about the oil prices if Canada didn't sell it to the US... please. You think that's the way the price of oil is determined?)

Actually I was always under the impression that oil prices were determined by commodities markets. But you have to admit, if the number one supplier of US oil decides to embargo the US, oil prices will fall for everyone else (even though they will rise for the US), because we would have an extra supply.

No they won't. Canada is just too isolated to sell its stuff anywhere other than the US. And in any case, other countries already have agreement with each other that Canada is not part of. The UK cannot, for example, back away from it's EU commitments just because Canada now wants to trade.

Canada's got huge amounts of natural resources, very close proximity to Russia and thereby China, the largest natural bay in the world, huge reserves of fresh water and hydropower capacity, and a well-developed, high tech communications and transportation network. Not to mention close ties with Europe and Asia. They'd do fine without the US, and we'd just be losing a good market for our products and services.

I say we just slap a nice fat tariff on all the natural resources heading to the US until they pay us back, or we recoup the money stolen by softwood tariffs. As much as the US might not like to admit it, they need us, especially for our power, water, and oil. Its a pity the government didnt decide to cut power to them during the summer, I'm sure a couple widespread blackouts would have sent a strong message to the US that we won't take it lying down.

I say we just slap a nice fat tariff on all the natural resources heading to the US until they pay us back, or we recoup the money stolen by softwood tariffs. As much as the US might not like to admit it, they need us, especially for our power, water, and oil. Its a pity the government didnt decide to cut power to them during the summer, I'm sure a couple widespread blackouts would have sent a strong message to the US that we won't take it lying down.

Hear, Hear! :)

But you have to admit, if the number one supplier of US oil decides to embargo the US, oil prices will fall for everyone else (even though they will rise for the US), because we would have an extra supply.
Sure it would, if they decided to sell it cheaper to others. Would they, for some reason? Keeping in mind that the costs of shipping would rise. You tell me.

*LOL*, umm no we're not. Canada isn't exactly a land-locked country ya know. ;)

Well I am sure there are billions of siberians lining up to buy all your Canada goodies. But face it, you haven't sold anything to anyone but the US for a long time now, so it's not exactly as if you have anything the rest of the world relies upon Canada for much. Indeed, we have our own non-Canada supplies for almost everything (except the bear skins). The only thing the embargo will accomplish is to make natural resources cheaper for the rest of us.

And you can forget selling your wheat in Europe. The french will never allow that.

I say we just slap a nice fat tariff on all the natural resources heading to the US until they pay us back, or we recoup the money stolen by softwood tariffs. As much as the US might not like to admit it, they need us, especially for our power, water, and oil. Its a pity the government didnt decide to cut power to them during the summer, I'm sure a couple widespread blackouts would have sent a strong message to the US that we won't take it lying down.

Not a good idea. Effectively, it lowers Canada to the same level as the US, and retaliatory tariff battles only hurt the economies of the nations involved. Canada needs to use it's legal high ground to force the US's hand via international trade methods, and impose legal sanctions as necessary. Anything else will just hurt Canada and the US and produce nothing of benefit.

Your snippy remarks, based on rhetoric, mean nothing to me and it if others ignore them, then you will just go away. Have a great day. :D
People would be wise to follow this advice, Flintoff obviously has nothing constructive to say and just enjoys spewing hatred towards Canadians.

Sure it would, if they decided to sell it cheaper. Would they, for some reason? Keeping in mind that the costs of shipping would rise. You tell me.

Well unless they cut the price, why would anyone bother to buy it. Europe doesn't use Canadian oil now, what would be the incentive to start, absent price cuts?

Edited, becuase I meant cuts not rises.

Keeping in mind that the costs of shipping would rise. You tell me.

Yes, that is correct, which is the only real down side I can see for Canada. But hey, it's better than dealing with thieves. I know myself and probably a lot of Canadians would rather give up a little of our bottom line than put up with the bullshit the Americans are trying to pull. We have huge surpluses, it wouldn't hurt us.

And you can forget selling your wheat in Europe. The french will never allow that.Of course not. Cos Canada is a non-Eu country, and we have the wonderful CAP. That's what you are missing, presumably. NAFTA is kinda like the EU. Free trade and that. Not so free now, after the US decision. I'd bet you'd be howling if the other EU countries sanctioned British exports out of a whim.

Well unless they cut the price, why would anyone bother to buy it. Europe doesn't use Canadian oil now, what would be the incentive to start, absent price cuts?.

The EU can trust Canada much more than it can Russia or OPEC. There are geopolitical and psychological reasons as well as the fact that European-Canadian relations are very close compared to those with OPEC or Russia.

Well unless they cut the price, why would anyone bother to buy it. Europe doesn't use Canadian oil now, what would be the incentive to start, absent price cuts?

Edited, becuase I meant cuts not rises.You want me to argue your case now?

Of course not. Cos Canada is a non-Eu country, and we have the wonderful CAP. That's what you are missing, presumably. NAFTA is kinda like the EU. Free trade and that. Not so free now, after the US decision. I'd bet you'd be howling if the other EU countries sanctioned British exports out of a whim.

Of course I would. But the UK is one of the big four, so its not going to happen. (Except for that nonsense over british beef).

You want me to argue your case now?

Not at all. I am simply pointing out that Canada would have to offer cheaper oil otherwise there is no reason to change what is happening now.

And one things for certian, the UK will not be buying Canadian oil any time soon.

This is an insult to the free market, and the US is clearly guilty of contractual fraud. We should be held liable for any such breaches.
Right now is not the time to allow personal sentiment to affect our judgements in trade. If we screw over one nation, why would any other want to offer us less restricted trade in theirs? No matter how one slices that shitcake, it can't be good for the American economy.

*runs to the US/Canada border, snips a BC Hydro line, caused a blackout in the states, getting chased by groups of Americans, cops, and border patrols. :D

It definitely is not good for the US, the lumber processors in the US, contractors, any business who deals with wood, other than the logging industry, are quite upset about the tariffs. It has cost thousands of workers their jobs, and consumers now have to pay more for houses, and wood products.
As well, it is extremely hypocritical of the US to claim Canada is subsidizing the lumber industry, since the US actually subsidizes theirs.

*runs to the US/Canada border, snips a BC Hydro line :D
*sends a really big pair of cutters*

The EU can trust Canada much more than it can Russia or OPEC. There are geopolitical and psychological reasons as well as the fact that European-Canadian relations are very close compared to those with OPEC or Russia.

No. That's wrong. You can't just think of the EU as western europe anymore. Culturally, Canada has very little in common with the European community when compared to Russia. It's america lite.

Its a conspiracy to make you so mad that you attack with your military. That way we'll have an excuse to "secure" all your oil wells, and rebuild your country with special attention to the structure of your new government. If you don't attack us with your military, that's ok. I'm sure you have some illegal weapons hidden somewhere.

If you overthrow Paul Martin, I'll welcome you guys with open arms.

Of course I would. But the UK is one of the big four, so its not going to happen. (Except for that nonsense over british beef).
So you would? OK, so we are back to your initial solution of 'Canada should be building a stronger military in order to secure trade and other signed agreements with bigger powers being implemented (or stop whining)'. Do you suggest other countries should do this aswell?

No. That's wrong. You can't just think of the EU as western europe anymore. Culturally, Canada has very little in common with the European community when compared to Russia. It's america lite.

Russia's starting to act very authoritarian, and is getting closer to China and farther from Europe. Plus, they're acting very suspiciously towards Eastern Europe, particularly Ukraine. Under Putin, they are acting very much like the old USSR, but with a more subtle bent and free-market economics. Europe should be very wary of them.

Canada may be close to America, but it isn't a possible threat like Russia.

Canada City']If you overthrow Paul Martin, I'll welcome you guys with open arms.

Didn't we already figure out a few months ago that you're an American to begin with? No Canadians will be welcoming anyone who tries to over-throw our government. Thanks! :rolleyes:

Under Putin, they are acting very much like the old USSR, but with a more subtle bent and free-market economics. Europe should be very wary of them.
USA lite, just like A Flintoff said. :D

USA lite, just like A Flintoff said. :D

Canada is not USA-lite and we get quite annoyed when we hear that. In fact we share far more core beliefs and values with Europe than we do with the USA. Why doesn't anyone except Canadians know that? LOL :headbang:

Didn't we already figure out a few months ago that you're an American to begin with? No Canadians will be welcoming anyone who tries to over-throw our government. Thanks! :rolleyes:

Remember that I laughed at that?

Canadian here. Otherwise, why would I be posting stuff about Canada like the recent Gun Shelter crap from Mayor Miller?

Didn't we already figure out a few months ago that you're an American to begin with? No Canadians will be welcoming anyone who tries to over-throw our government. Thanks! :rolleyes:
Hear, hear!

Nor try to co-opt it via backroom dealing and blackmail. We're savvy to that banana republic jazz.

USA lite, just like A Flintoff said. :D

If you're from Finland, you should be doubly worried! However, I don't know if you'd be the first target; you did slaughter them pretty bad in the Winter War.

Canada City']If you overthrow Paul Martin, I'll welcome you guys with open arms.

If you overthrow Bush, we'll send you Beer and poutine.

Canada is not USA-lite and we get quite annoyed when we hear that. In fact we share far more core beliefs and values with Europe than we do with the USA. Why doesn't anyone except Canadians know that? LOL :headbang:Russia is America lite, you silly goose.

(a joke, like)

So you would? OK, so we are back to your initial solution of 'Canada should be building a stronger military in order to secure trade and other signed agreements with bigger powers being implemented (or stop whining)'. Do you suggest other countries should do this aswell?

Actually my intial argument was more like "Canada has allowed itself to become hopelessly dependant upon the US, and therefore shouldn't be surprised when things like this happens especially given the fact they spend a good 90% of their time bad mouthing every other country on earth except Cuba."

Canada could and should have developed relationships with other countries long ago, but it didn't. (And I find the Canadian attitude that now they no longer wish to trade with the US the rest of the world should drop what it is doing and start buying thier goods highly distasteful).

It also should have entered into relationships where there is more parity in terms of national strength so things like this wouldn't happen.

Maybe it should have joined the EU, then this wouldn't have happened. Oh well - too late now.

Russia is America lite, you silly goose.
I was gonna say, but chose not to. Whoopsies, Steph... ;)

Actually my intial argument was more like "Canada has allowed itself to become hopelessly dependant upon the US, and therefore shouldn't be surprised when things like this happens especially given the fact they spend a good 90% of their time bad mouthing every other country on earth except Cuba."

Canada could and should have developed relationships with other countries long ago, but it didn't. (And I find the Canadian attitude that now they no longer wish to trade with the US the rest of the world should drop what it is doing and start buying thier goods highly distasteful).

It also should have entered into relationships where there is more parity in terms of national strength so things like this wouldn't happen.

Maybe it should have joined the EU, then this wouldn't have happened. Oh well - too late now.
Yeah, ok. I admire your work here, but I gotta go now. Can't wait to see how this all has developed while I have been downing the pints, though. Cheers.

I was gonna say, but chose not to. Whoopsies, Steph... ;)

0o0o0o0o sorry, misunderstood. Whoopsie indeed. :)

Although don't you find that the UK under the leadership of Tony (the suck American ass) Blair has taken on more American values than anyone could of ever imagined only a few short years ago?

It also should have entered into relationships where there is more parity in terms of national strength so things like this wouldn't happen.

So you're criticizing us for our geography and history now? Nice one, Mr. Flintoff. Guess we should have entered into Free Trade with what, Sweden? first. Shame on us for believing our neighbours lies.

Canada is not USA-lite and we get quite annoyed when we hear that. In fact we share far more core beliefs and values with Europe than we do with the USA. Why doesn't anyone except Canadians know that? LOL :headbang:

No you don't. You like to think you do, but the reality is that you are far more american culturally than you are European. You play their sports, you watch their TV. Most of you live within five minutes drive of the US border. The differences probably seem big to you because you are right there, that's all.

So you're criticizing us for our geography and history now? Nice one, Mr. Flintoff. Guess we should have entered into Free Trade with what, Sweden? first. Shame on us for believing our neighbours lies.

Actually, all trading aside, Canada has excellent relationships with Europe and many other countries. We're an original member of the G-8 as well as NATO and many other treaties such as ICC etc.. we have formed strong bonds with many other countries outside of just the United States. So, I'm not sure what Flintoff is talking about. I think he's just trolling the thread to be honest. But meh! I just don't think he really knows what he's talking about, so I wouldn't pay him any real attention anyway.

So you're criticizing us for our geography and history now? Nice one, Mr. Flintoff. Guess we should have entered into Free Trade with what, Sweden? first. Shame on us for believing our neighbours lies.

Aren't you a commonwealth nation? There is absoultely nothing in your history that would have prevented you from entering into other free trade arangements.

0o0o0o0o sorry, misunderstood. Whoopsie indeed. :)

Although don't you find that the UK under the leadership of Tony (the suck American ass) Blair has taken on more American values than anyone could of ever imagined only a few short years ago?

And yet, Tony got the US to agree to third world debt relief. What a bastard!

Canada's contribution to that, zero.

Canada could and should have developed relationships with other countries long ago, but it didn't. (And I find the Canadian attitude that now they no longer wish to trade with the US the rest of the world should drop what it is doing and start buying thier goods highly distasteful).



Canada does not wish to stop trading with the US. Ninety-Six percent of all US/Canadian daily trade is harmonious. The other Four percent is debatable. The softwood industry in Canada has taken a beating over the last few years. My understanding of the reason behind this is because Canada has been flooding the market with timber far below market value. This may be acceptable in socialist and communist countries but here in the US our markets can not compete with that which is why we have emposed a 9% tarrif on these imports to level out the playing feild. Parts of Canada, mainly B.C. would like to use energy as a means of forcing the US to allow for the sub-market value entry of their product. Lest they forget, there is a $100 billion trade deficit between our countries. Playing hardball with this administration is useless. Bush just signed into law a new energy bill that calls for more nuclear power and to lessen our demand for foreign energy. Personally, I think Canadians should stop applauding their "vast natural resources" and concentrate on their miniscule human resources. Canada has an area comparable to the United States yet has only a tenth of our population. If Canada is such a great place, then why don't more people immigrate there. And if the US is such a bad place, why do we have close to a quarter million immigrants every month.

Canada does not wish to stop trading with the US. Ninety-Six percent of all US/Canadian daily trade is harmonious. The other Four percent is debatable. The softwood industry in Canada has taken a beating over the last few years. My understanding of the reason behind this is because Canada has been flooding the market with timber far below market value. This may be acceptable in socialist and communist countries but here in the US our markets can not compete with that which is why we have emposed a 9% tarrif on these imports to level out the playing feild. Parts of Canada, mainly B.C. would like to use energy as a means of forcing the US to allow for the sub-market value entry of their product. Lest they forget, there is a $100 billion trade deficit between our countries. Playing hardball with this administration is useless. Bush just signed into law a new energy bill that calls for more nuclear power and to lessen our demand for foreign energy. Personally, I think Canadians should stop applauding their "vast natural resources" and concentrate on their miniscule human resources. Canada has an area comparable to the United States yet has only a tenth of our population. If Canada is such a great place, then why don't more people immigrate there. And if the US is such a bad place, why do we have close to a quarter million immigrants every month.


I know that. What bothers me is the Canadian attitude that the rest of the world should stop what it's doing and run and take Canada's side just because she's having a tiff with her boyfriend.

Doubly so because, as you can see above, Canadians disparage every other nation that doesn't totally agree with them. And to top it off, they have this whole "we are far more european than north american deal" which is clearly not true. I have more to talk about with the average australian than the average canadian. After all, Europeans can go whole hours at a stretch without thinking about the US, a skill that most Canadians seem to lack.

Europeans can go whole hours at a stretch without thinking about the US, a skill that most Canadians seem to lack.

There are a lot of angry Canadians. I think it has a lot to do with the suspension of last season's NHL (hockey). I noticed a half a percent decline in my Ebay sales over the last 3 quarters.

And yet, Tony got the US to agree to third world debt relief. What a bastard!

Canada's contribution to that, zero.


I thought Canada was apart of the G8 debt relief, or have i fallen to error?

I agree with A Flintoff and Stephistan here- we should start flexing our muscles and stop letting the US push us around. If the Americans don't want to play fair with trade we'll find another partner who will. The only problem is that we have a lot already invested in the United States so we can't just "up and leave", but if this fiasco continues like this, it may just force our hand which might be devastating.

I thought Canada was apart of the G8 debt relief, or have i fallen to error?

The fact is, that the US was opposed to debt relief. But, Tony Blair, even though Canadian posters here think he is just some arse sniffer, was able to put pressure on the US and get it to sign on, thus making the whole thing possible.

Canada doesn't have that kind of influence because it has never made the tough choices that give it that kind of independence from the US.

There are a lot of angry Canadians. I think it has a lot to do with the suspension of last season's NHL (hockey). I noticed a half a percent decline in my Ebay sales over the last 3 quarters.

LOL, hockey.

Of course, they are so European.

LOL, hockey. Of course, they are so European.

Of course, they are so European.
Want to dispute that?!? Of course you DO know where hockey was first invented? Played in the dark ages, by the Welsh, Irish or the Scots. They just slammed a tinned sausage around with wood branches. It had to be some of those three, cos the English never invented any good game (well, except for footie).

Here's a theory for you; "the countries that have good hockey series, fucking rule!". Well rule in the sense they are on top of best secondary school lerning, non-corrupt state, best to live in countries,.. you name it ... oh! and 'best in hockey' category too. Yes, that includes the USA. I wonder who is excluded...

(You know the feeling, when you typed enough in a fury... you have to 'submit'... and suddenly it doesn't feel that good an idea anymore..? I had one of those recently.)

The fact is, that the US was opposed to debt relief. But, Tony Blair, even though Canadian posters here think he is just some arse sniffer, was able to put pressure on the US and get it to sign on, thus making the whole thing possible.

Canada doesn't have that kind of influence because it has never made the tough choices that give it that kind of independence from the US.



I see, I had interpreted you as suggesting that Canada had pledged no debt relief, while they actual have agreed to double it over the next 3 three years.

I still take issue with your seemingly baseless assertion that Canada dicks around when it comes to international issues anymore than any other western nation. I’d like you to show me evidence of Canada successively being weak on international issues. They sprang to action during WWI/II, in addition they were cooperative members during the cold war and have joined corporative trade packs with us. It's in Canada's best interested to play nice and its in the America's interest to play nice back. They are right beside us, who else are they going to trade with first?

Ravenshrike makes the best (though feeble) point about subsidised industry is not exactly free trade...but that doesn't exempt the US from reneging on its past obligations.

"Not exactly free trade"? It cannot be defined in any way shape or form as free trade since it's just another form of protectionist tariffs. Now, NAFTA itself needs to be scrapped because it's entirely too complicated and certain groups oriented. However, that does not mitigate the fact that subsides are the beginning of a command-control economy.

I see, I had interpreted you as suggesting that Canada had pledged no debt relief, while they actual have agreed to double it over the next 3 three years.

I still take issue with your seemingly baseless assertion that Canada dicks around when it comes to international issues anymore than any other western nation. I’d like you to show me evidence of Canada successively being weak on international issues. They sprang to action during WWI/II, in addition they were cooperative members during the cold war and have joined corporative trade packs with us. It's in Canada's best interested to play nice and its in the America's interest to play nice back. They are right beside us, who else are they going to trade with first?

Yah, WWII was over sixty years ago. Most people today weren't even alive then. The plain fact is that Germany and the UK have a far closer relationship today than the UK and Canada, so it's not something you can hang your hat on.

And of course Canada is weak on international issues. It talks a big game, but it is so suborned to the US, that its influence is practically zero. Australia has more influence and freedom of action in the world than Canada.

Moreover, since at least the sixties, Canada has pissed all over its European connections in favor of the US, so pardon me for not feeling your pain. Take the whole Irn-Bru thing for example.

we should start flexing our muscles and stop letting the US push us around. If the Americans don't want to play fair with trade we'll find another partner who will.


Start working out Canada, you have very little muscle to flex. Canada is the seventh largest producer of oil and also the seventh largest consumer of oil. The US is the Third largest producer and the Second largest consumer. worlds largest oil producers/consumers (http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/nonopec.html) The US has the Fourth largest population in the world where Canada has the 36Thworld population (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html) You consume way more than you need and you are terrible business people. You're mad at the US for trying to be more competitive? Be angry at your own leaders for the rape of your own country:

Much of the wood that is taken
from Canada is utilized for plywood as concrete forms, and for
disposable chopsticks that can be found in Tokyo restaurants. The
waste of Canadian wood is compounded by multibillion dollar land
giveaways to the Mitsubishi and Daishowa Corporations by the
Alberta and B.C. Governments. The giveaways have totaled 100,000
sq. miles, or ten percent of Alberta's total land mass, and if one
were to compare that total it would be larger then the land areas
of Connecticut, Rhode Island, Delaware, Massachusetts, Prince
Edward Island and Nova Scotia combined.

The current land giveaways that total an estimated U.S.$1.1
billion are very important to Alberta, since it is currently
increasing taxes across the board to pay for a budget deficit. But
many of the indigenous Albertans are upset that once the lumber is
processed by the Japanese MNCs into plywood, chopsticks and paper,
its worth will balloon to U.S.$8.2 billion. The large amount of
profit has concerned the Albertan citizens, and has caused them to
take notice of the exact damage being inflicted upon their land by
the Japanese MNCs, and if the estimated U.S.$1.1 billion is
actually a sufficient price to pay for environmental degradation.

The Canadian government has historically undervalued its
timber, often allowing foreign logging corporations to generate
profits much higher than would be possible anywhere else in the
world. That was due to Canada's fear that the loss of its logging
dominance would damage its U.S.$23 billion per year industry,
leading to more than one million Canadian loggers losing their
livelihoods

That is just a sample of how ignorant Canadians are here is the rest (http://www.american.edu/TED/canchop.htm)

leading to more than one million Canadian loggers losing their
livelihoods
There's only 30 million people in Canada. I really question whether there are in fact one million loggers in Canada, or even whether the number of loggers in Canada's history comes close to one million people.

Where'd you get that number from?

Haven't bothered to read more than the very first post, but...

Oil embargo now!

Fuck the USA. At least as far as this issue goes.

Isle of East America and A Flintoff: This entire thread I have yet to see you show anyone here how the U.S. is right at all in the softwood issue. All you seem to do is talk about how Canada has no world-influence, is to dependant on America, or you change the topic.

So apart from that. Give me a clear-cut, LEGAL reason as to why the U.S. should not have to re-imburse Canada the 5 billion dollars on the tariffs. As a country that stands for JUSTICE (supposedly), you should be showing the world that you aren't complete jackasses and stop this ridiculous crap.

So stop changing the subject, or giving me these stupid exscuses that we can't do fuck all to Americans, because even if we can't (which is debatable), it doesen't answer the question as to how the U.S. can stand it's ground and say they are not at fault.

Where'd you get that number from?

that number came from a case study on the Mitsubishi and Daishowa's Involvement in Canadian Deforestation. It's in the link above and I would assume that it includes everyone that would be involved in the logging industry including paper mill and saw mill workers, marketing and finance and everything else that is related to such a huge industry.

There's only 30 million people in Canada. I really question whether there are in fact one million loggers in Canada, or even whether the number of loggers in Canada's history comes close to one million people.

Where'd you get that number from?

Check the references at the bottom of the link. :rolleyes:

Yah, WWII was over sixty years ago. Most people today weren't even alive then. The plain fact is that Germany and the UK have a far closer relationship today than the UK and Canada, so it's not something you can hang your hat on.

And of course Canada is weak on international issues. It talks a big game, but it is so suborned to the US, that its influence is practically zero. Australia has more influence and freedom of action in the world than Canada.

Moreover, since at least the sixties, Canada has pissed all over its European connections in favor of the US, so pardon me for not feeling your pain. Take the whole Irn-Bru thing for example.


Well, not so subordinate as to unwillingly participate in the Iraq conflict. Just because it’s a strongly tied trading partner doesn’t mean we should walk all over them. On the contrary we should probably be fair as its in our interest. Their power internationally is irrelevant, and your yet to back your claims that their weaker than any other nation of their size. It comes down to if America says it’s a lawful, pro-free trade state, it should act it.

Isle of East America and A Flintoff: This entire thread I have yet to see you show anyone here how the U.S. is right at all in the softwood issue. All you seem to do is talk about how Canada has no world-influence, is to dependant on America, or you change the topic.

So apart from that. Give me a clear-cut, LEGAL reason as to why the U.S. should not have to re-imburse Canada the 5 billion dollars on the tariffs. As a country that stands for JUSTICE (supposedly), you should be showing the world that you aren't complete jackasses and stop this ridiculous crap.

So stop changing the subject, or giving me these stupid exscuses that we can't do fuck all to Americans, because even if we can't (which is debatable), it doesen't answer the question as to how the U.S. can stand it's ground and say they are not at fault.


Why don't you read some of the posts I have made before you flap off your mouth. Over the last few years, Canada has flooded the timber market with sub-market value product. This alone hurts the US timber industry. You may not care about it but we do. As the Canadians are finding out, if product is not sold at fair market value, then it cost us and them jobs. Both our timber industries are hurting. They sold off vast amounts of timber land to the Japanese and other foreign investors and now want to make up their loss at our expense. It's not going to happen.

Well, not so subordinate as to unwillingly participate in the Iraq conflict. Just because it’s a strongly tied trading partner doesn’t mean we should walk all over them. On the contrary we should probably be fair as its in our interest. Their power internationally is irrelevant, and your yet to back your claims that their weaker than any other nation of their size. It comes down to if America says it’s a lawful, pro-free trade state, it should act it.

Oh and there it is... the whole Iraq thing. Has it ever occurred to anyone that the UK participated in Iraq for its own reasons and not simply because the US wanted it to?

And their power internationally is totally relevant. They turned their backs on the rest of the world and chose to be a US satrap, they should either live with it or change it. In either case, the constant bad-mouthing of everyone else should cease.

(Not to mention they are the least traveled people in the industrial world).

Isle of East America and A Flintoff: This entire thread I have yet to see you show anyone here how the U.S. is right at all in the softwood issue. All you seem to do is talk about how Canada has no world-influence, is to dependant on America, or you change the topic.

So apart from that. Give me a clear-cut, LEGAL reason as to why the U.S. should not have to re-imburse Canada the 5 billion dollars on the tariffs. As a country that stands for JUSTICE (supposedly), you should be showing the world that you aren't complete jackasses and stop this ridiculous crap.

So stop changing the subject, or giving me these stupid exscuses that we can't do fuck all to Americans, because even if we can't (which is debatable), it doesen't answer the question as to how the U.S. can stand it's ground and say they are not at fault.

I actually said the US is wrong. I also said there is nothing that Canada can do about it. I also said that it is hardly surprising given the attitudes of most Canadians that this type of thing happens. Canada made its bed, now it shall have to lie in it.

Moral of the story: People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Start working out Canada, you have very little muscle to flex. Canada is the seventh largest producer of oil and also the seventh largest consumer of oil. The US is the Third largest producer and the Second largest consumer. worlds largest oil producers/consumers (http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/nonopec.html) The US has the Fourth largest population in the world where Canada has the 36Thworld population (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html) You consume way more than you need and you are terrible business people. You're mad at the US for trying to be more competitive? Be angry at your own leaders for the rape of your own country:

That is just a sample of how ignorant Canadians are here is the rest (http://www.american.edu/TED/canchop.htm)

Canada also has 180 billion barrels of proven reserves, just behind Saudi Arabia. The US has relatively nil (25 billion barrrels) of its own reserves particularly with respect to production levels. Exactly who is burning the candles at both ends?

Now with such an abundance of something we don't need to import, common sense that resource will be used form things like oh.. heating oil and fuel. Canada is a somewhat big cold country.

The use consumes 9 times the amount of oil we do for about 10 times the population. If we are such poor business people the US isn't far behind but at least we aren't importing over half our oil consumption. The trade deficit that the US whines about so much has a lot to do with oil prices.

Why don't you read some of the posts I have made before you flap off your mouth. Over the last few years, Canada has flooded the timber market with sub-market value product. This alone hurts the US timber industry. You may not care about it but we do. As the Canadians are finding out, if product is not sold at fair market value, then it cost us and them jobs. Both our timber industries are hurting. They sold off vast amounts of timber land to the Japanese and other foreign investors and now want to make up their loss at our expense. It's not going to happen.
Dear lord... You can't get protectionist as soon as you start to lose money in an industry. We have a free trade agreement, it's called NAFTA, maybe you've heard of it? The highest-ranked NAFTA commitees and the WTO both agree that Canada is not doing anything wrong, and seeing as how this is an issue of trade, I'll go with them seeing as how it is there job to determine these things, not a random poster on NS. Face it, America's wrong and Canada deserves to be compensated.

Canada also has 180 billion barrels of proven reserves, just behind Saudi Arabia. The US has relatively nil (25 billion barrrels) of its own reserves particularly with respect to production levels. Exactly who is burning the candles at both ends?

Now with such an abundance of something we don't need to import, common sense that resource will be used form things like oh.. heating oil and fuel. Canada is a somewhat big cold country.

The use consumes 9 times the amount of oil we do for about 10 times the population. If we are such poor business people the US isn't far behind but at least we aren't importing over half our oil consumption. The trade deficit that the US whines about so much has a lot to do with oil prices.

Oh so now it doesn't suit you, Kyoto protocols are bollocks are they? Typical.

Why don't you read some of the posts I have made before you flap off your mouth. Over the last few years, Canada has flooded the timber market with sub-market value product. This alone hurts the US timber industry. You may not care about it but we do. As the Canadians are finding out, if product is not sold at fair market value, then it cost us and them jobs. Both our timber industries are hurting. They sold off vast amounts of timber land to the Japanese and other foreign investors and now want to make up their loss at our expense. It's not going to happen.


Exqueeze me but I used to work in the forest industry and I've never heard of huge amounts of land being sold off to Japanese corporations.

Are you aware that the same government which sets such low stumpage rates also sets limits on the annual timber harvest and forces them to replant and rehabilitate? Are you aware Canadian forest protection legislation, esp. BC's, is some of the toughest in the world? Certainly more stringent than the US.

To be quite frank the main problem with the US timber suppply is there's so little of it left to be harvested economically, because its garbage or on scree slopes, or it's on protected lands.

Oh so now it doesn't suit you, Kyoto protocols are bollocks are they? Typical.

We still ratified it, but what is your point anyhow?

Oh and there it is... the whole Iraq thing. Has it ever occurred to anyone that the UK participated in Iraq for its own reasons and not simply because the US wanted it to?

And their power internationally is totally relevant. They turned their backs on the rest of the world and chose to be a US satrap, they should either live with it or change it. In either case, the constant bad-mouthing of everyone else should cease.

(Not to mention they are the least traveled people in the industrial world).
Well, you seem to under the impression that Canada is the US's rag doll and is totally willing to take any shit you throw at it. Canada being such a large trading partner gives them bargaining tools. Lots of hydro electricity (among other things) flows to the states, if memory serves me. If the states were to keep this kinda shit up or intensify it, they'll start fucking with you. By virtue of being next to you they can fuck with you, they could decide not to cooperate with the war on drugs. Just because they make concessions doesn’t make them your lap dog. When has the Canadian government offically badmouthed another nation unprovoked.

You've actually have very little to say on the matter at hand, your arguments are... well, not really arguments rather, claims, fallacious ones at that. Since when do Canadian travel habits have anything to do with trade disputes? That comment is just bait, and sounds dubious. When is Canada's international reputation relevant to whether the states actions are lawful?

Why don't you read some of the posts I have made before you flap off your mouth. Over the last few years, Canada has flooded the timber market with sub-market value product. This alone hurts the US timber industry. You may not care about it but we do. As the Canadians are finding out, if product is not sold at fair market value, then it cost us and them jobs. Both our timber industries are hurting. They sold off vast amounts of timber land to the Japanese and other foreign investors and now want to make up their loss at our expense. It's not going to happen.

Except every source except the American timber industry has noted that America's 27% tariffs are way too high for the amount of regulation that we put on our softwood lumber.

Check out these articles:
One (http://www.economist.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=541416)
Two (http://www.economist.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=760607)
Three (http://www.economist.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=1059489)
Four (http://www.economist.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=1560792)
Five (http://www.economist.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3203357)

Here are some parts I really like:

"Dan Evans, manager of log exports for British Columbia's government, points out that stumpage fees cover only a small portion of what it costs a Canadian company to send lumber across the border. These companies, he says, have to build their own roads, re-forest logged lands, and pay the cost of planning their sales."

So not only does price end up being the roughly the same, not 27% lower as the tariffs seem to indicate, but we get dinged for what? Oh that's right. Helping our environment.

"In a series of rulings over the past two years, tribunals of the WTO and NAFTA have upheld Canada's argument. On August 31st [2004], the NAFTA tribunal (with three American and two Canadian members) made a final, unanimous, ruling. Yet again, it rejected the claim that Canada's allegedly subsidised exports pose a “threat of material injury” to the American industry."

There we go. The panel with more Americans than Canadians ruled unanimously that America was wrong. This is not an issue of subsidizing an industry, that is, unless you're referring to what the Americans are doing. The cost comes to around the same, as even the Americans on the panel agreed.

"A recent study by the Cato Institute, a libertarian think-tank, found that the SLA had jacked up lumber prices in the United States by about $50-80 per 1,000 board-feet and had added $800-$1,300 to the cost of a new house."

Okay, so these tariffs are costing the average American money so a weak industry with a strong lobby can be propped up. Surely the Americans in the crowd don't like the idea of their own house prices going up.

I'm not even going to appeal to you hardliners on any sort of legal principle. Let me put it to you this way: What you are doing is wrong. Non-biased institutions have repeatedly told you that you are wrong. Only the American Timber Lobby and Administration are denying this. Sure, you can hide behind them if you want, but your decisions are hurting people. They are hurting Canadians who are trying to make an honest living. They are hurting millions of Americans who want to buy a new home to raise a family. Even if you don't care at all about Canadians, care about those Americans who suffer at the hands of the American Timber Lobby, or better yet, care about what's morally right. I don't think that's asking too much.

We still ratified it, but what is your point anyhow?

Something about reducing fossil fuel consumption as I recall. But I guess that doesn't apply to Canada.

Well, you seem to under the impression that Canada is the US's rag doll and is totally willing to take any shit you throw at it. Canada being such a large trading partner gives them bargaining tools. Lots of hydro electricity (among other things) flows to the states, if memory serves me. If the states were to keep this kinda shit up or intensify it, they'll start fucking with you. By virtue of being next to you they can fuck with you, they could decide not to cooperate with the war on drugs. Just because they make concessions doesn’t make them your lap dog. When has the Canadian government offically badmouthed another nation unprovoked.

You've actually have very little to say on the matter at hand, your arguments are... well, not really arguments rather, claims, fallacious ones at that. Since when do Canadian travel habits have anything to do with trade disputes? That comment is just bait, and sounds dubious. When is Canada's international reputation relevant to whether the states actions are lawful?


I'm from the UK, I don't throw any shit at Canada. Their attitude does, however, irk me.

-snip-
Sir, thank you for that.

Something about reducing fossil fuel consumption as I recall. But I guess that doesn't apply to Canada.
Yes because all other world governments are making an insane effort to abide by the Kyoto Protocol </sarcasm>

Canada is one of the coldest countries in the world, and is spread very far apart, so it's no wonder we use a lot of energy for things such as gas, heating, etc. Not to mention a lot of heavy-industries use tremendous amounts of energy, and Canada's enconomy is heavily dependant on them.

Something about reducing fossil fuel consumption as I recall. But I guess that doesn't apply to Canada.


Again, we ratified the Kyoto Treaty (to reduce greenhouse gas emissions) and your point is?

Yes because all other world governments are making an insane effort to abide by the Kyoto Protocol </sarcasm>

Canada is one of the coldest countries in the world, and is spread very far apart, so it's no wonder we use a lot of energy for things such as gas, heating, etc. Not to mention a lot of heavy-industries use tremendous amounts of energy, and Canada's enconomy is heavily dependant on them.

Cry me a river. The UK is quite far north you know, as is Norway, yet Canadians manage to burn over two and a half times as much oil per person as either country.

To summarize: It's never Canada's fault, Canada is perfect, everyone else is wrong.

Dear lord... You can't get protectionist as soon as you start to lose money in an industry.


Uh, yes we can. The US main concern is and always will be the US. If our trade agreements are broken, it is because it is no longer in our best interest. Sure this is a global marketplace and we have NAFTA, which this administration deplores as well as many Americans. The price of NAFTA is too high IMO. There is less than 24 months left in Bush's administration. We will see what happens then.

I'm from the UK, I don't throw any shit at Canada. Their attitude does, however, irk me.
Sorry but you're too American to me. And yes u throw shit at Canada.

WWhen is Canada's international reputation relevant to whether the states actions are lawful?Aww, the guy is obviously just taking the piss. And doing a good job. :D

I'm from the UK, I don't throw any shit at Canada. Their attitude does, however, irk me.

I don’t know what attitude your talking about. What do you think the Canadian gov would do when the states unlawfully imposed extremely high tariffs? Its not crying its just doing what it can.

Aww, the guy is obviously just taking the piss. And doing a good job. :D

But we can have fun wiff him... he good!

Cry me a river. The UK is quite far north you know, as is Norway, yet Canadians manage to burn over two and a half times as much oil per person as either country.

To summarize: It's never Canada's fault, Canada is perfect, everyone else is wrong.
I concede that Canada's North-American way of life is extremely wasteful, and that we have to work at lowering out consumption of oil, but there are government initiatives to try and lower this (i.e. the one ton challenge that some Canadians might remember seeing ads for).

So to end it this way: North-Americans are wasteful and we (US/Canada) need to work at it.

Cry me a river. The UK is quite far north you know, as is Norway, yet Canadians manage to burn over two and a half times as much oil per person as either country.

To summarize: It's never Canada's fault, Canada is perfect, everyone else is wrong.
Not that I care about this conversation but the UK and the other countries around there benefit from something us people like to call the "Gulf Stream."

Sorry but you're too American to me.

Well as Canadians never leave Canada, I can see how you get confused. (All non-canadians=US citizens). But I can assure you Sir, I am a citizen of the United Kingdom. (From Northumberland to be exact, and I am sure you know where that is, because after all, Canadians are really more "European" than American.)

But we can have fun wiff him... he good!
Well sure! I grew tired earlier...but you can!

I concede that Canada's North-American way of life is extremely wasteful, and that we have to work at lowering out consumption of oil, but there are government initiatives to try and lower this (i.e. the one ton challenge that some Canadians might remember seeing ads for).

So to end it this way: North-Americans are wasteful and we (US/Canada) need to work at it.

Well, finally, some intellectual honesty. I thank you for your candor. I look forward to the day when everyone shares your attitude. I give you a heartfelt well done.

Well as Canadians never leave Canada, I can see how you get confused. (All non-canadians=US citizens). But I can assure you Sir, I am a citizen of the United Kingdom. (From Northumberland to be exact, and I am sure you know where that is, because after all, Canadians are really more "European" than American.)
I think it's safe to say we're more 'European' than you, no matter where you happen to live.

So to end it this way: North-Americans are wasteful and we (US/Canada) need to work at it.

What hurts us more than anything is our size. We need to find replacements for motor transport of goods; trains don't really help because they burn diesel fuel and that's not exactly much of a difference. We also need to develop more efficent public transportation between cities.

I don’t know what attitude your talking about. What do you think the Canadian gov would do when the states unlawfully imposed extremely high tariffs? Its not crying its just doing what it can.

The attitude I am talking about, and certainly was on the receiving end earlier in this thread, is where Canadians disparage anyone who does not agree with their opinion.

In conclusion:

The UK is not always right. I will readily admit this. Nor is Canada. A great many Canadians seem to have a problem with this however, and lay the blame solely at the feet of the US. Meanwhile, they have done little or nothing to assure their independence from US economic or millitary power, and furthermore have done their best to alienate everyone else.

I concede that Canada's North-American way of life is extremely wasteful, and that we have to work at lowering out consumption of oil, but there are government initiatives to try and lower this (i.e. the one ton challenge that some Canadians might remember seeing ads for).

So to end it this way: North-Americans are wasteful and we (US/Canada) need to work at it.

Wow! I can agree with that.

Uh, yes we can. The US main concern is and always will be the US. If our trade agreements are broken, it is because it is no longer in our best interest.

Okay, I don't expect you to read whole articles (http://www.economist.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=541416), but what if I just give you the same quotation I did last time I posted?

"A recent study by the Cato Institute, a libertarian think-tank, found that the SLA had jacked up lumber prices in the United States by about $50-80 per 1,000 board-feet and had added $800-$1,300 to the cost of a new house."

These tariffs are hurting the average American. Even if you only about what's best for America it still makes sense to remove the tariffs.

The UK is not always right. I will readily admit this. Nor is Canada. A great many Canadians seem to have a problem with this however, and lay the blame solely at the feet of the US. Meanwhile, they have done little or nothing to assure their independence from US economic or millitary power, and furthermore have done their best to alienate everyone else.

I don't claim Canada is always right. The CRTC is a great example of Canadian stupidity that exists to this day, in my opinion. I also agree with what Fischer said about wastefulness. Where we differ, however, is in how responsible Canada is for this particular problem. I would maintain that in a truly free market system a country has no control over what country it has the closest trade ties to because of the very nature of the system. In a free market system, the government is not supposed to intervene, which makes establishing economic independence difficult. Given that, it is unfair to blame the Canadian government for the current predicament. They let their businesses trade with the country that guaranteed them the highest profits, which is a good trade practice.

I think it's safe to say we're more 'European' than you, no matter where you happen to live.

Have you been to England? Eh?

I've been to Canada. I would suggest you are talking about subject in which you know nothing about.

In any case, because I am a citizen of the EU, I am by definition far more European than you. But thank you once again Canada for telling me exactly how the rest of the world should be.

Well sure! I grew tired earlier...but you can!

I'm practising my typing. :)

In any case, because I am a citizen of the EU, I am by definition far more European than you. But thank you once again Canada for telling me exactly how the rest of the world should be.

No problem. Hopefully this time you'll learn your lesson and start doing it right.

No problem. Hopefully this time you'll learn your lesson and start doing it right.
:p
Thanks for that.

Have you been to England? Eh?

I've been to Canada. I would suggest you are talking about subject in which you know nothing about.

In any case, because I am a citizen of the EU, I am by definition far more European than you. But thank you once again Canada for telling me exactly how the rest of the world should be.

Why are you so rude?

First, I've been to England, and it's quite nice.

Second, he wasn't referring to your whole country, he was referring to you. Dobbsworld meant how European someone is should be decided by their politics, not their actual location. Convetional wisdom has it that Europe is pretty liberal. You sound pretty conservative. We sound more liberal than you. Thus, Dobbsworld concluded using his his original idea that how European someone is should by decided by their politics, we are more European than you. He didn't mean for it to be geographic, as you are obviously more European in that sense.

No problem. Hopefully this time you'll learn your lesson and start doing it right.
This is not a productive area of conversation gents.

Let's just keep to the facts here shall we guys? It'll be far more enjoyable if we don't let tensions get to high.

Back to the topic at hand: So the U.S. has decided to rape Canada through the proverbial pants.

Why are you so rude?

First, I've been to England, and it's quite nice.

Second, he wasn't referring to your whole country, he was referring to you. Dobbsworld meant how European someone is should be decided by their politics, not their actual location. Convetional wisdom has it that Europe is pretty liberal. You sound pretty conservative. We sound more liberal than you. Thus, Dobbsworld concluded using his his original idea that how European someone is should by decided by their politics, we are more European than you. He didn't mean for it to be geographic, as you are obviously more European in that sense.
Just so. Thanks for having the fortitude to so speak on my behalf. Flintoff is right about one thing - I do tend to let my emotions get the better of me. Must be the dispossessed Hebridean inside me, burning a hole in my gut to hear such farcical bilge. Blaming the victim is pretty uncool though, no matter where you're from.

But we're not whining; we're incensed. There's a world of difference.

No problem. Hopefully this time you'll learn your lesson and start doing it right.

No you are right. I am going to mend my ways. As of tommorow I am going to but an 10.0 Litre automatic truck and start just burning oil in my back yard. What's more I am going to develop an obsessive interest in rounders, and play football using my hands.

I am also going to accost every foreign person I meet with the irrelevant demand "What do you think about america? Eh?" Unless they are American, in which case I will tell them that they are worse than Nazi Germany, and in any event the Soviet Union really won WWII without any help from England or the US.

I will also burn down every cultural institution; completely forget my own history; adopt Sharia as part of the common law; Ban Irn-Bru because pepsi wants me to and never leave my country again.

I will also drop England from the Six Nations. And start calling terms "semesters".

Thank you for your advice.

a libertarian think-tank, found that the SLA had jacked up lumber prices in the United States by about $50-80 per 1,000 board-feet and had added $800-$1,300 to the cost of a new house."



I'm sorry but just mentioning Libertarian debunks your case. $800 to $1300 is miniscule compared to the cost of a new home. I live in the southern states and the average cost of a home here is $200,000. I'm originally from Chicago and the average cost of a home there is over $400,000. Yes it is rediculous, but the timber issue affects more than just the homebuilding products. It affects the paper industry as well, which we have a large paper industry. Personally, I would have no problem eliminating tarrifs if Canada would increase there imporing and reduce the trade gap.

Okay, I've read this whole thread and there have been some pretty good arguments here. And I don't mean to be a troll or anything but I've come to a conclusion about one thing:

A Flintoff has no idea what he's talking about.

No you are right. I am going to mend my ways. As of tommorow I am going to but an 10.0 Litre automatic truck and start just burning oil in my back yard. What's more I am going to develop an obsessive interest in rounders, and play football using my hands.

I am also going to accost every foreign person I meet with the irrelevant demand "What do you think about america? Eh?" Unless they are American, in which case I will tell them that they are worse than Nazi Germany, and in any event the Soviet Union really won WWII without any help from England or the US.

I will also burn down every cultural institution; completely forget my own history; adopt Sharia as part of the common law; Ban Irn-Bru because pepsi wants me to and never leave my country again.

I will also drop England from the Six Nations. And start calling terms "semesters".

Thank you for your advice.That-a-boy! And this all has something to do with this thread? Trolling, are we?

Why are you so rude?

First, I've been to England, and it's quite nice.

Second, he wasn't referring to your whole country, he was referring to you. Dobbsworld meant how European someone is should be decided by their politics, not their actual location. Convetional wisdom has it that Europe is pretty liberal. You sound pretty conservative. We sound more liberal than you. Thus, Dobbsworld concluded using his his original idea that how European someone is should by decided by their politics, we are more European than you. He didn't mean for it to be geographic, as you are obviously more European in that sense.

Oh......so one can only be European if they pass the Dobbsworld test? Now Canada is the final arbiter of not only the US, but also Europe.

Well we don't need, nor do we seek your approval, thank you very much.

Shock horror, there are 400,000,000 people in Europe, and some of them are conservative. It doesn't make them not European however. Furthermore, just hating the US doesn't make you European either. Not at all. Canada is in no way European. It is North American.

Keep your trees.

We have enough pulp for toilet paper anyway.

A Flintoff has no idea what he's talking about.

If you paid any attention to things outside of your own borders, you would know that I couldn't possibly be A Flintoff.

Yes because all other world governments are making an insane effort to abide by the Kyoto Protocol </sarcasm>

Canada is one of the coldest countries in the world, and is spread very far apart, so it's no wonder we use a lot of energy for things such as gas, heating, etc. Not to mention a lot of heavy-industries use tremendous amounts of energy, and Canada's enconomy is heavily dependant on them.
You can say that again!! You could place 4 UK's in the Province of Ontario (2nd largest Province) and still have some left over room. All in all, Canada (9,976,140 km²) is 40 times the size of the UK (245,000 km²).

Having stated that, I fully support Kyoto and I do hope that progress can be made in protecting the future of our very vulnerable environment.

As far as trade wars are concerned, I don't think it will happen, but if it did, I wouldn't underestimate the resolve of Canadians, starting with border crossings.

If you paid any attention to things outside of your own borders, you would know that I couldn't possibly be A Flintoff.

He said you didn't know what you're talking about. :confused:

He said you didn't know what you're talking about. :confused:

Yes, exactly my point.

Yes, exactly my point.
hehehehe... ;)

:confused:

:confused:

It's European humor. I know that is hard for Canada people.

If you paid any attention to things outside of your own borders, you would know that I couldn't possibly be A Flintoff.Well, I'm sure he didn't think you actually were some crappy cricket player.

Did you think I was a bunnyduck?

:confused:

Seconded.

Well, I'm sure he didn't think you actually were some crappy cricket player.
Yeah, I just glumly googled the name/word/term/whatever and got a lot of squawk about cricket. And, so? What, so you're into cricket... or this guy. Whatever.

Well, I'm sure he didn't think you actually were some crappy cricket player.

Did you think I was a bunnyduck?

Crappy Cricket Player?!!!!!!!!

The number two all-rounder in the entire world, my friend. That's hardly crappy.

And yes, I did think you were a bunnyduck.

Dobbsworld, how does this timber issue affect you personally? Are you in the timber industry? Family? If you are, I can see why you would be inflamed by this issue. If not, then the other 96% of US/Canadian trade that is harmonious means nothing to you and this whole thread has been a troll.

Yeah, I just glumly googled the name/word/term/whatever and got a lot of squawk about cricket. And, so? What, so you're into cricket... or this guy. Whatever.This guy may be. Not me so much. But I recognised the name. Helps to be an all-rounder, no?

Edit: shit! He answered quickly. :D

Yeah, I just glumly googled the name/word/term/whatever and got a lot of squawk about cricket. And, so? What, so you're into cricket... or this guy. Whatever.

Well I am glad you are in charge of what is, or what is not, European. Your command of google serves you well in this role. Maybe I should have called myself Jean-Claude Skrela.

This guy may be. Not me so much. But I recognised the name. Helps to be an all-rounder, no?

Edit: shit! He answered quickly. :D
Helps if you're at all interested in sports. I don't follow any sports. Not even :eek: hockey.

This guy may be. Not me so much. But I recognised the name. Helps to be an all-rounder, no?

Edit: shit! He answered quickly. :D

Becuase I like cricket. In fact, I am a cricket nut.

Did you know Canada used to have a cricket team; in the old days.

Helps if you're at all interested in sports. I don't follow any sports. Not even :eek: hockey.I see. Sports are my livelihood. University career doesn't pay. Sportbets here.

I see. Sports are my livelihood. University career doesn't pay. Sportbets here.

What odds are you giving australia now? I am just curious because I think they could come back?

I wouldn't give odds at all. Cricket is a sport I know very little about. Not even the rules. I just knew Alexander Flintoff's name cos I spoke with a British friend yesterday. He was going barmy over the Ashes.

I wouldn't give odds at all. Cricket is a sport I know very little about. Not even the rules. I just knew Alexander Flintoff's name cos I spoke with a British friend yesterday. He was going barmy over the Ashes.

You mean Andrew "Freddie" Flintoff, of course.

The attitude I am talking about, and certainly was on the receiving end earlier in this thread, is where Canadians disparage anyone who does not agree with their opinion.

In conclusion:

The UK is not always right. I will readily admit this. Nor is Canada. A great many Canadians seem to have a problem with this however, and lay the blame solely at the feet of the US. Meanwhile, they have done little or nothing to assure their independence from US economic or millitary power, and furthermore have done their best to alienate everyone else.

So your saying tha Canadians, as a whole, are so helplessly attached to their collective ego that they all refuse to ever consider anything that negates Canada being the best! Complete BS. Your most certainly basing your opinion on utterly unsatisfactory evidence and information, unless of course you’ve interviewed, cross-examined and documented an account of all or most Canadians opinions concerning their unwillingness to concede, whatever collective opinion it is that they are so attached to.

Canada and the US are right beside each other, these kind of things happen, Canada only blames the US when there reason to believe a problem is originating from them. Otherwise those that I know probably think that we are mutual partners who both benefit from our trade relations. I having a hard time remembering when the US has been the great devil to Canada.

You mean Andrew "Freddie" Flintoff, of course.
Apparently I do! I swear that friend of mine said 'Alexander'. Good! He has been eating those cucumber sandwiches and not paying attention. Thanks.

Oh......so one can only be European if they pass the Dobbsworld test? Now Canada is the final arbiter of not only the US, but also Europe.

Well we don't need, nor do we seek your approval, thank you very much.

Shock horror, there are 400,000,000 people in Europe, and some of them are conservative. It doesn't make them not European however. Furthermore, just hating the US doesn't make you European either. Not at all. Canada is in no way European. It is North American.

*bangs head on table repeatedly*

He was forking kidding man! Don't you get it? He created a criteria based on a common stereotype (Europeans are liberal) which allowed him to judge who was more or less European for the sake of humour. We'ren't even trying to be rude and you're taking offense.

I'm sorry but just mentioning Libertarian debunks your case. $800 to $1300 is miniscule compared to the cost of a new home. I live in the southern states and the average cost of a home here is $200,000. I'm originally from Chicago and the average cost of a home there is over $400,000. Yes it is rediculous, but the timber issue affects more than just the homebuilding products. It affects the paper industry as well, which we have a large paper industry. Personally, I would have no problem eliminating tarrifs if Canada would increase there imporing and reduce the trade gap.

How about from this (http://www.economist.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=1059489) source?

"In Seattle, Robb Dunn, president of a chain of ten lumber stores, says his customers will just have to put up with higher prices. Some reckon the tariff will increase new-home prices by as much as $1,500."

It's illogical to say prices aren't going to go up when an industry stops letting people buy the cheapest goods. I've given you two estimates on how much.

As for reducing the trade gap, our government has no control over that right now. American firms will just have to become more competitive if they want to beat Canadian firms and reduce that trade gap.

So your saying tha Canadians, as a whole, are so helplessly attached to their collective ego that they all refuse to ever consider anything that negates Canada being the best!

Yes, that's pretty much been my experience with Canadians. I am sure that some canadians are not that way, but the vast majority seem to follow that pattern.

Apparently I do! I swear that friend of mine said 'Alexander'. Good! He has been eating those cucumber sandwiches and not paying attention. Thanks.

You know, I never cared for cucumber sandwiches. Now smoked mackerel with gooseberry preserve, there is a sandwich for you.

Clearly however, and as I have long believed, cucumber rots the brain.

Clearly however, and as I have long believed, cucumber rots the brain.

http://www.ahundredmonkeys.com/images/spotted_dick.gif

Perhaps this is more to your liking? :D

http://www.ahundredmonkeys.com/images/spotted_dick.gif

Perhaps this is more to your liking? :D

I more of a Tesco man myself. But who doesn't enjoy a good chunk of spotted dick with custard?

But who doesn't enjoy a good chunk of spotted dick with custard?

Followed up with a tall glass of boiling hot bleach and penicillin injections. :eek:

Followed up with a tall glass of boiling hot bleach and penicillin injections. :eek:

ROLFCOPTER :p

Yes, that's pretty much been my experience with Canadians. I am sure that some canadians are not that way, but the vast majority seem to follow that pattern.

So your taking several particular experiences and expanding upon those to suggest that the vast majority feel such a way? Seems Canadians aren’t the only ones who don’t have a grip on reality.

So your taking several particular experiences and expanding upon those to suggest that the vast majority feel such a way? Seems Canadians aren’t the only ones who don’t have a grip on reality.

I do get CBC on my satellite TV you know. So I think it is more than just a few "particular" experiences.

And that aside, look at the level of discourse in this thread from other Canadians. Anyone who doesn't agree with Canada, right or wrong, must be evil and stupid. (Mostly).

I'm sick of their two-facedness - how can they honestly be at all surprised that their name is mud all over the planet?

Well, I'm American...and I'm not surprised. When you put a dick and a Bush in the White House, what ELSE did you expect? Of COURSE we were gonna get screwed!! All of us! I feel for ya, Canada, but, you know, the average American, Joe/Jane Sixpack is getting screwed by the Bush Administration, too.

NAFTA and CAFTA cost us Americans our JOBS. Our livelihood...you know, the ability to raise our families with a decent standard of living we've come to expect. We are likely the first generation who will ever do worse than our parents did.

The American Dream is dead for all those not born ALREADY LIVING THE AMERICAN DREAM. It is absolutely unattainable to anyone who wasn't born already living it. And we have Bush and the Republicans to thank for that.

NAFTA and CAFTA cost us Americans our JOBS. Our livelihood...you know, the ability to raise our families with a decent standard of living we've come to expect. We are likely the first generation who will ever do worse than our parents did.

Well, under the first, bilateral Free Trade agreement, your workforce saw a healthy increase in jobs, in more-or-less direct proportion to job losses in Canada as companies closed up here and relocated to the States. Under NAFTA this accelerated, though Mexico is now the country of choice.

And here it's a fact that this is the first generation doing worse than our parents did. And to think we owe it all to Tories and Republicans.

I do get CBC on my satellite TV you know. So I think it is more than just a few "particular" experiences.

And that aside, look at the level of discourse in this thread from other Canadians. Anyone who doesn't agree with Canada, right or wrong, must be evil and stupid. (Mostly).

Well this thread concerns a particular issue, I'm not sure, but I don't think it has been declared on behave of all Canadians that we think everyone else is wrong. I don't think NS is a microcosm of the world. CBC Radio and Television are much like BBC Television and Radio, they have very similar docs, programming, etc and the CBC often plays British content. Canada has its own large private media and we get most of the American media, which I find to be far more flag waving, we’re # 1 then Canadian. I don’t think Canadians are any more extreme than the rest of the west, it seems like you looking for a reason to hate.

The average Canadian is likely similar to the average westerner, I don’t see any legitimate reason for your distaste for Canada.

As a Canadian, in and around Canada, I can tell you that we’re highly varied, no one way to peg us, all types.

Anyone who doesn't agree with Canada, right or wrong, must be evil and stupid. (Mostly).


Now you're getting it!

I think the U.S. should be able to do what they want with the agreement. After all, Canada has piggybacked plenty of security off our military, reducing the need for their own. Canadians shouldn't look at this as a hardship, rather just a sweetened deal. For us. US. After all, we deserve it. America was here a long time before Canada, and it will be here a long time after Canada is gone. Since our military can beat Canada's, Canada really doesn't have much of a say in what is right and wrong. Military=Morality.


That which doesn't kill you, only postpones the inevitable.

Umm... no. Might doesn't make right. Only does in fairy stories.

After all, Canada has piggybacked plenty of security off our military, reducing the need for their own.
You have my undivided attention. Please explain how "Canada has piggybacked plenty of security off our military, reducing the need for their own".

*CanuckHeaven* awaits. This ought to be good.

I think the U.S. should be able to do what they want with the agreement. After all, Canada has piggybacked plenty of security off our military, reducing the need for their own. Canadians shouldn't look at this as a hardship, rather just a sweetened deal. For us. US. After all, we deserve it. America was here a long time before Canada, and it will be here a long time after Canada is gone. Since our military can beat Canada's, Canada really doesn't have much of a say in what is right and wrong. Military=Morality.


That which doesn't kill you, only postpones the inevitable.

Wrong. Military =/= Morality. Military = ability to force your way on others, by killing more of them than they can of yours.

Military = asshole schoolyard bully who takes everyone else's lunch money just because he CAN.

Might does not make right. It only means you have the ability to force your way on others. In other words, it means you get to act like a bully. And the rest of the world will see you for what you are. A bully.

And, by the way, I'm American.

After all, Canada has piggybacked plenty of security off our military, reducing the need for their own.

Actually we reduced the need for a military by not having as many people want to kill us.

Actually we reduced the need for a military by not having as many people want to kill us.
Give this man a box of cookies. But there are more reasons. :)

Well this thread concerns a particular issue, I'm not sure, but I don't think it has been declared on behave of all Canadians that we think everyone else is wrong. I don't think NS is a microcosm of the world. CBC Radio and Television are much like BBC Television and Radio, they have very similar docs, programming, etc and the CBC often plays British content. Canada has its own large private media and we get most of the American media, which I find to be far more flag waving, we’re # 1 then Canadian. I don’t think Canadians are any more extreme than the rest of the west, it seems like you looking for a reason to hate.

The average Canadian is likely similar to the average westerner, I don’t see any legitimate reason for your distaste for Canada.

As a Canadian, in and around Canada, I can tell you that we’re highly varied, no one way to peg us, all types.

I just find, that in my experience, that Canadians are highly parochial, and not well versed in the rest of the world. Also, they tend to be very angry about the US, and they have no-one else to blame for that other than themselves.

I am trying to help you here Canada. Take some interest in things that are not the US. And stop using the awsome swears you learnt in Canada Doctor School whenever someone doesn't agree with you.

Look at yourselves, someone from Europe points out that no-one really cares about your trade dispute with the US, and the next thing you see is a whole boatload of vitriol because they don't take your side.

Edit: And what I find most odd is the fact that americans are defending you. I suppose it is because they are protective and you rely upon that.

America Sucks Balls!

Actually we reduced the need for a military by not having as many people want to kill us.

that, and you're even more isolated than us. i mean, come on, the last time you guys fought a war was when you were still a colony, and the last people who directly invaded/attacked you was us in 1812.

also, nothing important is in Canada.

in regards to the trade issue;
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y95/MajorMaxillary/Whois16.gif

the last time you guys fought a war was when you were still a colony

Afghanistan.

Look at yourselves, someone from Europe points out that no-one really cares about your trade dispute with the US, and the next thing you see is a whole boatload of vitriol because they don't take your side.

Except you didn't just point out you didn't care. Here's what you said:

This is what happens when you don't want to pay for your own national defense. You end up being buttfucked by the nation that does.

Lesson to Canada: Stop being a whiney bitch, and become a real country istead of relying on the US for everything. Until you do, the US will just do whatever it damn well pleases, and you'll have to take it and like it.

You took an unnecessary shot, in my opinion. More than one actually. If you didn't care you wouldn't have posted. I would contend you just wanted to pick a fight.

also, nothing important is in Canada.


Then you've never been to Younge Street in Toronto!

And you've forgotten that the number one exporter of oil to the United States is....CANADA.

the last time you guys fought a war was when you were still a colony, and the last people who directly invaded/attacked you was us in 1812.


Actually they were damn good at fighting in WWI and WWII. It's just a recent thing.

Afghanistan.

Exactly. In fact, didn't four of your Air Force guys get "oops-bombed" by U.S. forces? And what did WE say about it?? OOOOPS, sorry, Canada...

Actually they were damn good at fighting in WWI and WWII. It's just a recent thing.

Afghanistan.

EDIT: Those were the two easiest posts I've ever made.

Also, Canadians are not stupid enough to deny themselves the pleasures of a good Cuban cigar.

No you are right. I am going to mend my ways. As of tommorow I am going to but an 10.0 Litre automatic truck and start just burning oil in my back yard. What's more I am going to develop an obsessive interest in rounders, and play football using my hands.

I am also going to accost every foreign person I meet with the irrelevant demand "What do you think about america? Eh?" Unless they are American, in which case I will tell them that they are worse than Nazi Germany, and in any event the Soviet Union really won WWII without any help from England or the US.

I will also burn down every cultural institution; completely forget my own history; adopt Sharia as part of the common law; Ban Irn-Bru because pepsi wants me to and never leave my country again.

I will also drop England from the Six Nations. And start calling terms "semesters".

Thank you for your advice.


Hey, you're welcome friend. A Canadian always helps a buddy in need.

Also, Canadians are not stupid enough to deny themselves the pleasures of a good Cuban cigar.
Or a pipeful of frop, for that matter...

I don't get what the big deal is. What's the point of a "free trade" deal if Canada doesn't have a free market economy to start with? Isn't that somehow a double negative?

Afghanistan.

EDIT: Those are the two easiest posts I've ever made.

Well yes, you are right, without Canada's huge and vital effort the whole Afganistan campaign would have been totally impossible.

I don't get what the big deal is. What's the point of a "free trade" deal if Canada doesn't have a free market economy to start with? Isn't that somehow a double negative?

The states don't either. No successful democracy has had a truly free market since the 30's. We're all mixed.

I mean...Lumber tarriffs?

Then you've never been to Younge Street in Toronto!

And you've forgotten that the number one exporter of oil to the United States is....CANADA.

Last time i checked our largest supplier was Mexico. who is also our largest supplier of cheap, industrious labor.

Hey, you're welcome friend. A Canadian always helps a buddy in need.

Well I am nothing, if not open minded.

Last time i checked our largest supplier was Mexico. who is also our largest supporter of cheap, industrious labor.

Look again. It's Canada, at 17% if your total oil imports.

I don't get what the big deal is. What's the point of a "free trade" deal if Canada doesn't have a free market economy to start with? Isn't that somehow a double negative?

Neither does the United States. If you want a true free market economy, look to the world in the mid-1800's. Most developed countries operate on a mixed economy these days. Our markets are just as free as the American ones in the areas NAFTA has required them to be. As someone who supports trade liberalization, I can tell you that with the exception of a few holdovers (agriculture, broadcasting), Canada experiences trade that is just as liberal, if not more so, than the US. The American steel, lumber and agricultural industries are all more heavily subsidized than their Canadian counterparts.

Well I am nothing, if not open minded.
LOL

Hello nothing...

Look again. It's Canada, at 17% if your total oil imports.
and whats the percentage of Mexico?

and whats the percentage of Mexico?

13%.

Top 5 are:

Canda: 17%
Saudi Arabia: 14.5%
Mexico: 13%
Venezuela: 11%
Nigeria: 7%

Well yes, you are right, without Canada's huge and vital effort the whole Afganistan campaign would have been totally impossible.

I never said we did a lot, but with the exception of the Second Gulf War and Vietnam, Canada has been in all the same wars as the United States since 1900. In fairness, military strength is not a huge deal in Canada, and one of the main reasons is that we thought we could rely on international agreements that we had with the developed countries so we would not have to flex our muscles. Perhaps we should not have been so trusting, but honestly, that's not a bad mistake to make in my books.

Well I am nothing, if not open minded.

I'm liking you more and more.

Start working out Canada, you have very little muscle to flex. Canada is the seventh largest producer of oil and also the seventh largest consumer of oil. The US is the Third largest producer and the Second largest consumer. worlds largest oil producers/consumers The US has the Fourth largest population in the world where Canada has the 36Thworld population You consume way more than you need and you are terrible business people. You're mad at the US for trying to be more competitive? Be angry at your own leaders for the rape of your own country:

Much of the wood that is taken
from Canada is utilized for plywood as concrete forms, and for
disposable chopsticks that can be found in Tokyo restaurants. The
waste of Canadian wood is compounded by multibillion dollar land
giveaways to the Mitsubishi and Daishowa Corporations by the
Alberta and B.C. Governments. The giveaways have totaled 100,000
sq. miles, or ten percent of Alberta's total land mass, and if one
were to compare that total it would be larger then the land areas
of Connecticut, Rhode Island, Delaware, Massachusetts, Prince
Edward Island and Nova Scotia combined.

The current land giveaways that total an estimated U.S.$1.1
billion are very important to Alberta, since it is currently
increasing taxes across the board to pay for a budget deficit. But
many of the indigenous Albertans are upset that once the lumber is
processed by the Japanese MNCs into plywood, chopsticks and paper,
its worth will balloon to U.S.$8.2 billion. The large amount of
profit has concerned the Albertan citizens, and has caused them to
take notice of the exact damage being inflicted upon their land by
the Japanese MNCs, and if the estimated U.S.$1.1 billion is
actually a sufficient price to pay for environmental degradation.

The Canadian government has historically undervalued its
timber, often allowing foreign logging corporations to generate
profits much higher than would be possible anywhere else in the
world. That was due to Canada's fear that the loss of its logging
dominance would damage its U.S.$23 billion per year industry,
leading to more than one million Canadian loggers losing their
livelihoods

That is just a sample of how ignorant Canadians are here is the rest

So what? Canada made bad decisions in the past- the North American Free Trade Agreement was one of them. It doesn't mean that they'll continue to do so, and it doesn't mean that Canada, with a bit better decision-making, can't actually develop those muscles. Canada has plenty of natural resources (including more oil than Arabia in the Athabasca Tar Sands) and if we find an efficient way to use them (which is NOT impossible) then we'll have sway.

Regardless, the fact still remains that the United States is refusing to abide by an agreement they signed; and thus, it shouldn't be out of the ordinary for someone to want to leave that kind of arrangement and seek trading partners elsewhere who will honour those commitments. That would be the first good decision that Canada needs to make to become stronger.

(From Northumberland to be exact, and I am sure you know where that is, because after all, Canadians are really more "European" than American.)

Yeah. South of Scotland, and right along the eastern coast.

I just find, that in my experience, that Canadians are highly parochial, and not well versed in the rest of the world. Also, they tend to be very angry about the US, and they have no-one else to blame for that other than themselves.

I am trying to help you here Canada. Take some interest in things that are not the US. And stop using the awsome swears you learnt in Canada Doctor School whenever someone doesn't agree with you.

Look at yourselves, someone from Europe points out that no-one really cares about your trade dispute with the US, and the next thing you see is a whole boatload of vitriol because they don't take your side.

Edit: And what I find most odd is the fact that americans are defending you. I suppose it is because they are protective and you rely upon that.

I'm finished with this,
1. Your personal experiences concerns particular instances and have no necessary baring on who Canadians actually are.
2. Utter non-sense to suggest that Canadians are constantly angry and obsessing about America, or any one thing for that matter.
3. We do look at ourselves, we need to run the country after all.
4. My debate with you had nothing to do with the dispute or you being European rather, your method of critizing Canada, which was irrelevant fallacy ridden trolling.

Yeah. South of Scotland, and right along the eastern coast.

Shows what you know. :rolleyes:

I'm finished with this,
1. Your personal experiences concerns particular instances and have no necessary baring on who Canadians actually are.
2. Utter non-sense to suggest that Canadians are constantly angry and obsessing about America, or any one thing for that matter.
3. We do look at ourselves, we need to run the country after all.
4. My debate with you had nothing to do with the dispute or you being European rather, your method of critizing Canada, which was irrelevant fallacy ridden trolling.

I am just trying to help you, that's all. If I had said the same things about your neighbours to the South you would have agreed and given me a hearty pat on the back.

Specifically, and addressing your points.

1. On what other basis should I judge canadians. I am sharing with you my experiences, they are what they are.

2. Yes you are. Look at yourself right now. Seems pretty damn angry to me,

3. No you don't. Just look at this entire thread.

4. Yes, everyone who does not agree with Canada is either a liar or stupid. We've all heard it all before. Next you'll tell me how popular Canadians are with the rest of the world.

Shows what you know. :rolleyes:

You were the one who questionned whether or not there was a Canadian who knew where you lived.

Yes, everyone who does not agree with Canada is either a liar or stupid.

I'm glad you agree. And thanks for the sig.

@Flintoff: So what do you actually think of the trade dispute? I linked to a few articles before, and I'd be happy to again if you would like some non-CBC background.

Yah, at this point I would like to put the apologies out for my little cousin AKA, A Flintoff.

He wanted to talk about the ashes, and I suggested NS, because I know there are a lot of Oz/NZ etc. folk, so I suggested he should create an account. Give him credit, he got up at 5.30 today to listen to the webcast.

A quick review of what he has been up too in the interim however, both leaves my laughing, and a little annoyed.

No moar NS for flinty.

Forgive me if someone has already made this point over the last 15 pages.

Canadian softwood lumber is NOT subsidized by the Canadian government. The US stance is that it is, but every NAFTA board that has ever reviewed the situation has agreed with Canada that their stumpage fee system is not equivalent to subsidization. NAFTA review boards, I'd like to point out, consist of 3 Americans and 2 Canadians, so it's not exactly stacked in Canada's favour. In fact, the last review panel found UNANIMOUSLY in Canada's favour. One of those rulings is that Canada's softwood lumber industry is NOT subsidized, although it is different than the American system.

The American lumber industry claims that it is, but they have not been able to prove it to the satisfaction of the panel.

American timber lobbyists can claim Canadian lumber is subsidized all they want (and they do so very loudly) -- but that doesn't make it true.

Yah, at this point I would like to put the apologies out for my little cousin AKA, A Flintoff.

He wanted to talk about the ashes, and I suggested NS, because I know there are a lot of Oz/NZ etc. folk, so I suggested he should create an account. Give him credit, he got up at 5.30 today to listen to the webcast.

A quick review of what he has been up too in the interim however, both leaves my laughing, and a little annoyed.

No moar NS for flinty.

...

Exactly how old are we talking here?

@Flintoff: So what do you actually think of the trade dispute? I linked to a few articles before, and I'd be happy to again if you would like some non-CBC background.
He has been trolling this whole thread and I pointed it out back in post # 65 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9528191&postcount=65).

Let him go? It really isn't worth the aggravation?

...

Exactly how old are we talking here?

He's fourteen.