NationStates Jolt Archive

Just now read a news article about high gas prices: http://news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/20050825/ts_latimes/gopfearsgaspriceangermayspillover

Ok, before all the europeans get their panties in a wad, i understand that higher-than-current-US-gas prices are the norm over there. But the US has only been over 2$ a gallon for a short time now.

Quotes taken from article:

Rep. Joe L. Barton (R-Texas), chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, said that with gas above $2.50 a gallon in Texas, his constituents were complaining plenty about prices. But when he lists for people the possible short-term fixes — "price controls, mandatory carpooling, lowering speed limits — they say, 'No, we're not for that.'
price controls, price controls on what? mandatory car pooling, isn't that like riding the bus? (btw, Texas has a shitty public transport system) lowering speed limits, how does lowering speed limits help reduce the cost of gas?

I'm gonna go off on a bit of a tangent here now about the speed limit:

I'm 26 years old, when i first started driving (10 years ago if you don't wanna do the math :P) the speed limit was 70mph on the highway (65 at night). The gov't decided that reducing the speed limit will reduce emissions and therefore cause less polution, but it's not like reducing the speed limit stopped people from driving over 70 (i swear ppl think 635 is their own personal speedway) AND I haven't seen any studies shouting out that there's less polution now in North Texas than there was before. And another thing, in Dallas/Tarrant/Denton counties, they raised the rate of car inspections from 12$ to 40$ just because of an emissions test. When they first instituted that, i thought i remember hearing it wasn't going to be permanent, but we still pay it. fuck them, i'm driving to Grayson county and still paying my 12$.

ok, back to gas post :P

"Unfortunately, this is a difficult problem that doesn't have an easy solution," said Capito, the West Virginia lawmaker. "People don't want to hear that, and I don't want to say it. But that's the truth."
i'll call him captain obvious. He's right we don't want to hear it's a difficult problem to fix, we want to hear what needs to be done to fix it. I for one think that the gov't needs to rethink it's policy on OPEC.

"I think anybody in office — Republican or Democrat — is somewhat concerned, because, unlike a lot of other big issues out there, this one impacts people where they care about it most, and that's their pocketbook," said National Republican Congressional Committee spokesman Carl Forti.
I'll agree with this to. It definitely isn't a single-party issue. Both sides are equally affected (unless you want to say that there are more poor Democrats than Republicans, then Dems are more affected :P) and i think they need to throw their petty bullshit out the window and get together to fix this....


what are you ideas? (apologies for long post)

<snip>

i guess i hit it in the head and got everyone's talking points down.... either that or no one cares :confused:


btw, meet Jerry Bump
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3792/bump6jd.jpg
thought that was kinda ironic

hehehehehe

at least in britain most of it is going to the state

sorry I was overwelmed by evil joy

The price of gas is one of those things that will make the people think things are not getting better economically.

Sure you got a raise, but that goes to paying for gas.

I would take mass transit if it was effiecent and convient but the argument in return "Hey if more people used it then we would make it efficent" Kind of backwards logic.

Gas is only going to get worst and the shrub will not do much to stop it. Oilmen like to make money......

Just now read a news article about high gas prices: http://news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/20050825/ts_latimes/gopfearsgaspriceangermayspillover

Ok, before all the europeans get their panties in a wad, i understand that higher-than-current-US-gas prices are the norm over there. But the US has only been over 2$ a gallon for a short time now.

Quotes taken from article:


price controls, price controls on what? mandatory car pooling, isn't that like riding the bus? (btw, Texas has a shitty public transport system) lowering speed limits, how does lowering speed limits help reduce the cost of gas?

I'm gonna go off on a bit of a tangent here now about the speed limit:

I'm 26 years old, when i first started driving (10 years ago if you don't wanna do the math :P) the speed limit was 70mph on the highway (65 at night). The gov't decided that reducing the speed limit will reduce emissions and therefore cause less polution, but it's not like reducing the speed limit stopped people from driving over 70 (i swear ppl think 635 is their own personal speedway) AND I haven't seen any studies shouting out that there's less polution now in North Texas than there was before. And another thing, in Dallas/Tarrant/Denton counties, they raised the rate of car inspections from 12$ to 40$ just because of an emissions test. When they first instituted that, i thought i remember hearing it wasn't going to be permanent, but we still pay it. fuck them, i'm driving to Grayson county and still paying my 12$.

ok, back to gas post :P


i'll call him captain obvious. He's right we don't want to hear it's a difficult problem to fix, we want to hear what needs to be done to fix it. I for one think that the gov't needs to rethink it's policy on OPEC.


I'll agree with this to. It definitely isn't a single-party issue. Both sides are equally affected (unless you want to say that there are more poor Democrats than Republicans, then Dems are more affected :P) and i think they need to throw their petty bullshit out the window and get together to fix this....


what are you ideas? (apologies for long post)

put a $10,000 tax on SUV purchases and a $500 tax rebate on purchases of cars that average at least 30mpg (city/hwy combined)

Demand is way high right now. All of the SUVs (there are other gas guzzlers, but SUVs are my peeve of the moment) on the road, as they have replaced cars, have increased our fuel consumption. With increased consumption goes increased demand. When demand is high, prices are high or can at least be justified more easily if they are high.

We can't enact price controls, because that will lead to shortages. (it's better to have expensive gas than not enough). Public transportation requires the presence of a good transportation system to work, and reducing the speed limit hurts the economy.

The thing is, there is 10% more oil stockpiled in the US than last year, and it is above the average for this time of year. However, prices are up 50%. That is a clear sign (amongst many others) that oil is in a speculative bubble. When it bursts, prices will fall and fast.

To keep it down, we need to eliminate the maze of regulations against new refineries and infrastructure, and increase domestic production. Lowering the budget deficit will also help because a stronger dollar translates in to cheaper oil prices.

put a $10,000 tax on SUV purchases

It won't work. People who want them will pay for them, and all that does is stoke inflation along the line. We need to force better mileage for all automobiles, with the biggest gains in SUV's.

It won't work. People who want them will pay for them, and all that does is stoke inflation along the line. We need to force better mileage for all automobiles, with the biggest gains in SUV's.

yah

the 4-cylinder, 100-hp Tahoe will be a big seller. hehe

We can't enact price controls, because that will lead to shortages. (it's better to have expensive gas than not enough). Public transportation requires the presence of a good transportation system to work, and reducing the speed limit hurts the economy.

The thing is, there is 10% more oil stockpiled in the US than last year, and it is above the average for this time of year. However, prices are up 50%. That is a clear sign (amongst many others) that oil is in a speculative bubble. When it bursts, prices will fall and fast.

To keep it down, we need to eliminate the maze of regulations against new refineries and infrastructure, and increase domestic production. Lowering the budget deficit will also help because a stronger dollar translates in to cheaper oil prices.

i agree with all of the post except for the bolded part. I forgot where i read it, (prolly fark) but someone said that in the 70's, when gas first reached a 1$ a gallon, it jumped drastically above the dollar. Then, when it went down again, it never really went below a dollar (barring the 98 cents a gallon i remember paying for in high school). I think it's a similar thing here. The oil companies are trying to get us to pay 2$ a gallon and think it's cheap. I'm a bit of that mentality right now. gas 64 cents cheaper is cheap, but i will always long for the dollar/gallon fuel.

Raise price to 3 dollars with tax and funnel all of that into a decent public transport system.

Problem solved.

the 4-cylinder, 100-hp Tahoe will be a big seller. hehe

I don't think it would be able to even move... :p

But really, increasing efficency wouldn't be that difficult. They can do it, but aren't going to unless we force companies to do so, or they lose business because of it.

how about revoking the suv legislation that the clinton govenrment created?

mandatory car pooling, isn't that like riding the bus? (btw, Texas has a shitty public transport system)

no, it's not

cars would still be cleaner than buses (or trains), would be mostly on time (or they could let you know when they are not), would work even past 7PM (which is when most bus lines stop near my town), and would probably be cheaper.

And I'm one who is still quite glad to use public transport, most of the people I meet in commuter's times can complain even more.

Raise price to 3 dollars with tax and funnel all of that into a decent public transport system.

Problem solved.

Just like the California Lottery was going to give extra money to the schools.....

i agree with all of the post except for the bolded part. I forgot where i read it, (prolly fark) but someone said that in the 70's, when gas first reached a 1$ a gallon, it jumped drastically above the dollar. Then, when it went down again, it never really went below a dollar (barring the 98 cents a gallon i remember paying for in high school). I think it's a similar thing here. The oil companies are trying to get us to pay 2$ a gallon and think it's cheap. I'm a bit of that mentality right now. gas 64 cents cheaper is cheap, but i will always long for the dollar/gallon fuel.

The oil speculators are playing a "game" where they see how high prices can be bidded up until they start to hurt the economy. However, at the same time the fundamental-based investors are bailing out of the oil market, leaving it in control of the speculators. When oil reaches the point where its increase will seriously hurt the economy, the speculators will bail and the entire market will crash, driving oil prices in to (hopefully) a secular bear market.

The price is being propped up by the fact that people aren't cutting down on driving. If that happens, it will provide the push to burst the oil bubble. This isn't a question of supply anymore, it's a game to see how high it can go.

Raise price to 3 dollars with tax and funnel all of that into a decent public transport system.
Problem solved.

No, it creates a whole new set of problems, including stronger inflation, a decline in purchasing power, and an economic slowdown as consumers cut back on spending on everything else. The oil companies will like the tax, because it doesn't hurt them and gives them an excuse to raise prices.

no, it's not

cars would still be cleaner than buses (or trains), would be mostly on time (or they could let you know when they are not), would work even past 7PM (which is when most bus lines stop near my town), and would probably be cheaper.

And I'm one who is still quite glad to use public transport, most of the people I meet in commuter's times can complain even more.
Where I live we have a great public transport system now. It used to be complete shit until about 6 months ago, but now theres a bus every 10 minutes in either direction, running like clockwork, it's relatively cheap, all brand new buses with comfortable seats, low floors, and low pollution, and a regular service froms from about 7am to 10pm, and in between there is a bus every now and then. Bus lanes everywhere to allow buses to get down the road quickly etc. Covers the entire city as well. This all happened once it got the funding to do it.

Public transport works brilliantly when it's given the opportunity. I wouldn't dream of driving to work or uni, buses are just so much easier.

The oil speculators are playing a "game" where they see how high prices can be bidded up until they start to hurt the economy. However, at the same time the fundamental-based investors are bailing out of the oil market, leaving it in control of the speculators. When oil reaches the point where its increase will seriously hurt the economy, the speculators will bail and the entire market will crash, driving oil prices in to (hopefully) a secular bear market.

The price is being propped up by the fact that people aren't cutting down on driving. If that happens, it will provide the push to burst the oil bubble. This isn't a question of supply anymore, it's a game to see how high it can go.

we could drive as much as we do... but the better gas mileage we get (as a nation), the less gas we need to drive ... and SUVs are keeping our overall mileage lower than it's ever been (anyone? anyone?) since maybe the days of the muscle cars. high demand is a variable here, probably at least semi-independent of supply (would make for a funky supply/demand/equilibrium price graph)

No, it creates a whole new set of problems, including stronger inflation, a decline in purchasing power, and an economic slowdown as consumers cut back on spending on everything else. The oil companies will like the tax, because it doesn't hurt them and gives them an excuse to raise prices.
That hasn't happened in the UK where we pay roughly $6.50 for 1 US gallon.

That hasn't happened in the UK where we pay roughly $6.50 for 1 US gallon.

You don't have to drive as much as Americans do, and you don't have to transport goods 2,000 miles by truck or automobile. Our economy has much greater distances involved, so prices have to be lower to make it affordable to transport goods over these distances.

That hasn't happened in the UK where we pay roughly $6.50 for 1 US gallon.

Nadkor, do the royals use Bentleys, Rolls-Royces, Jaguars, or Aston Martins (or combinations of them)?

we could drive as much as we do... but the better gas mileage we get (as a nation), the less gas we need to drive ... and SUVs are keeping our overall mileage lower than it's ever been (anyone? anyone?) since maybe the days of the muscle cars. high demand is a variable here, probably at least semi-independent of supply (would make for a funky supply/demand/equilibrium price graph)

Supply isn't really that much of a problem; we have plenty of oil and distillate fuel/propane. The main problem is, we don't have the refinery capacity to turn that oil in to gasoline enough to keep supplies rising. Demand isn't growing particularly rapidly, and supply isn't that close to being overtaken by demand even with tight refining capacity.

We need to get rid of the "boutique" blends of gasoline and establish national gas standards, and we need to build more refineries (maybe 50 or so). Abandoned military bases would be perfect sites, and all we have to do is get past the obsturctionism.

Nadkor, do the Royals use Bentleys, Rolls-Royces, Jaguars, or Aston Martins (or combinations of them)?
Officially the Queen uses a car that was jointly custom built by Rolls and Bentley and presented on her golden jubilee, but they mainly use Jags I think, and I think the Duke of Edinburgh drives a Range Rover (yes drives, not gets chauffered). The only Aston I can think of they drive is a 70s one that Charles drives that he bought himself.

For reference, the government gets driven about in Jags.

Why do you ask?

The price is being propped up by the fact that people aren't cutting down on driving. If that happens, it will provide the push to burst the oil bubble. This isn't a question of supply anymore, it's a game to see how high it can go.
this is a sad fact i think. Personally, i have cut dramatically on my driving. i drive to/from work and maybe one other place a week. Perhaps what the politicians should tell their constituents(sp) is that they need to stop driving so much.

You don't have to drive as much as Americans do
Yea, we do. The average Brit drives just as much as the average American.

and you don't have to transport goods 2,000 miles by truck or automobile. Not me personally, but some do.

Our economy has much greater distances involved, so prices have to be lower to make it affordable to transport goods over these distances.
Apart from some extreme examples (long distance hauliers etc.) I would contest that it doesn't really.

this is a sad fact i think. Personally, i have cut dramatically on my driving. i drive to/from work and maybe one other place a week. Perhaps what the politicians should tell their constituents(sp) is that they need to stop driving so much.

I doubt politicians will tell them; their energy bill isn't going to do anything and is loaded with favors for special interests. It doesn't even make it easier to build refineries!

People are starting to wake up, but too many are complaining but keep driving. The problem is, people see cheap gas as a "right" and don't realize it is a business whose goal is to make the most profit possible. They need to stop complaining and start driving less. Otherwise, it's not going to get much better.

Yea, we do. The average Brit drives just as much as the average American.

But for less distances at a time, although the net total may be the same; a lot of our driving is at high speed over long distances, which burns more gas.

Not me personally, but some do.

A lot of people drive a large distance; I have to drive about 200 miles to and back from Columbus three or four times a month.

Apart from some extreme examples (long distance hauliers etc.) I would contest that it doesn't really.

A huge amount of goods are transported over long distances by diesel trucks; plus, a lot of industries use gasoline and diesel for running machinery and even trains run on diesel fuel. Plus, a lot of industries use products derived from gasoline. High prices would be a serious blow to many sectors.

Officially the Queen uses a car that was jointly custom built by Rolls and Bentley and presented on her golden jubilee, but they mainly use Jags I think, and I think the Duke of Edinburgh drives a Range Rover (yes drives, not gets chauffered). The only Aston I can think of they drive is a 70s one that Charles drives that he bought himself.

For reference, the government gets driven about in Jags.

Why do you ask?

just curious.

is there, by any chance, still an Earl of Marlboro? (the last "royal" in my family tree, about 7 generations back)

no, it's not

cars would still be cleaner than buses (or trains), would be mostly on time (or they could let you know when they are not), would work even past 7PM (which is when most bus lines stop near my town), and would probably be cheaper.

And I'm one who is still quite glad to use public transport, most of the people I meet in commuter's times can complain even more.

Not to mention carpooling allows you to be picked up and dropped off, right at your destination, so you don't have to walk a frickin mile...AND, carpools don't stop every 27 fuckin' feet!

But for less distances at a time, although the net total may be the same; a lot of our driving is at high speed over long distances, which burns more gas.
And it's the same thing in the UK.


A lot of people drive a large distance; I have to drive about 200 miles to and back from Columbus three or four times a month.
If we're going to take random examples, my dad does 30,000 miles a year in hi s car which has a straight 6 engine. Not particularly good economy on that.



A huge amount of goods are transported over long distances by diesel trucks; plus, a lot of industries use gasoline and diesel for running machinery and even trains run on diesel fuel. Plus, a lot of industries use products derived from gasoline. High prices would be a serious blow to many sectors.
Then get that sorted out. Use electric trains like we do in the UK and put goods on them. You really have no choice in the long run. The UK converted from Diesel trains etc. to electric because we had to with the petrol prices.

I would also like to note most of even the big cities in America have no realistic form of public transportation. Bus? To hell with that, I think it's jsut for old people and tour groups.

just curious.

is there, by any chance, still an Earl of Marlboro? (the last "royal" in my family tree, about 7 generations back)
There was an Earl of Marlborough (I'm guessing you mean that) until the late 1600s, don't know about now. there is a Duke of Marlborough, however.

And it's the same thing in the UK.

But how efficent are the vehicles compared to US automobiles?

If we're going to take random examples, my dad does 30,000 miles a year in hi s car which has a straight 6 engine. Not particularly good economy on that.

30,000 miles a year is fairly heavy, even by US standards. What does he do for a living? At $6.50 a gallon, that has to get very expensive.


Then get that sorted out. Use electric trains like we do in the UK and put goods on them. You really have no choice in the long run. The UK converted from Diesel trains etc. to electric because we had to with the petrol prices.

We would, but the sheer size of the rail network would take a long time to do and be extremely expensive. Plus, the amount of power needed would require massive expansion of the power supply. I'm all for doing these things, but they would take a long time to come in to effect.

If we're going to take random examples, my dad does 30,000 miles a year in hi s car which has a straight 6 engine. Not particularly good economy on that.
meh, i used to try 36,000 every year in my ford ranger. Thankfully i've gotten an apt closer to work.

Then get that sorted out. Use electric trains like we do in the UK and put goods on them. You really have no choice in the long run. The UK converted from Diesel trains etc. to electric because we had to with the petrol prices.
i wouldn't mind seeing electric trains. will be costly to set up tho.
i agree w/ the bolded part, question is, when will the run end?

But how efficent are the vehicles compared to US automobiles?
Far more efficient, purely out of necessity (as a result of the high fuel prices)

30,000 miles a year is fairly heavy, even by US standards. What does he do for a living? At $6.50 a gallon, that has to get very expensive.
He is Ireland, Scotland and Northern England representative of several sizeable furniture manufacturers. That's a big area to cover. And yes, he has ridiculous fuel bills. He spends his entire working day on the road, and sometimes he goes for a week and tours about driving 9-9, carting furniture about in a BMW 530i with less than brilliant consumption.

We would, but the sheer size of the rail network would take a long time to do and be extremely expensive. Plus, the amount of power needed would require massive expansion of the power supply. I'm all for doing these things, but they would take a long time to come in to effect.
No doubt about the cost, but in the long run it would most likely be worth it.

Then get that sorted out. Use electric trains like we do in the UK and put goods on them. You really have no choice in the long run. The UK converted from Diesel trains etc. to electric because we had to with the petrol prices.
You do realize 1/5th of all US states are bigger than England, right?

You do realize 1/5th of all US states are bigger than England, right?
You do realise that the UK isn't just England, right?

England is, I would guess, about 1/3 of the land of the UK.

You do realise that the UK isn't just England, right?

England is, I would guess, about 1/3 of the land of the UK.
My original calculation for the England was roughly 83,000 square miles (weird search). I assume it was counting all of the British Isles because the other site I am on now gives me a combined number for the UK of roughly 95,000 square miles, still smaller than a more exact 1/5th of US states [11 states instead of 14 states].

"I think anybody in office — Republican or Democrat — is somewhat concerned, because, unlike a lot of other big issues out there, this one impacts people where they care about it most, and that's their pocketbook," said National Republican Congressional Committee spokesman Carl Forti.

I'd have to disagree. I have seen no real changes in anyone's driving habits. Until gas gets to a point where no one is willing to drive anymore, it will just keep rising. My bet is that number is at $5.

BTW, Hawaii has placed price caps on gasoline. So let me get this straight: they want an oversupply of gasoline to build up and inundate the market later. In addition, they want to destroy their budding geothermal industry by keeping gas affordable. This may not matter as much, but Hawaii is an archipelago. Not only will more gas be sent in, but I bet shipping costs to the island will soar through the roof.