NationStates Jolt Archive

It is stated that in Christianity should one ask for absolution (ie. forgiveness), it will be given. However, several groups and individuals maintain that there are "unforgiveable sins", one of which is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

Personally, as a Christian I do not think that any sin can be considered "unforgiveable" by immortal standards.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -John 3:16

And honestly, I don't see how calling God a mean name can land you in Hell without possibility of salvation, when a murderer can get off by saying he was sorry.

So, for those of you who practice Christianity, or simply have an educated opinion, I ask this: Is there a sin out there so grievous that it can be considered "unforgivable"?

Thank you.

It is stated that in Christianity should one ask for absolution (ie. forgiveness), it will be given. However, several groups and individuals maintain that there are "unforgiveable sins", one of which is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

Personally, as a Christian I do not think that any sin can be considered "unforgiveable" by immortal standards.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -John 3:16

And honestly, I don't see how calling God a mean name can land you in Hell without possibility of salvation, when a murderer can get off by saying he was sorry.

So, for those of you who practice Christianity, or simply have an educated opinion, I ask this: Is there a sin out there so grievous that it can be considered "unforgivable"?

Thank you.

I am also a Christian and I've heard that arguement too. Here's where it gets interesting though, the Holy Ghost is pretty much salvation correct or can be used as a metaphor, the Holy Ghost entering us. Still, the point though is the fact that it was probably stressing the fact that we need salvation, because if u reject salvation entirely and forever. Blaspheming the Holy Ghost in other words. But u can be forgiven for that.

As before though, I think it was stressing the fact that we need salvation, otherwise, we would land in Hell.

Suicide

Suicide

How is suicide an "unforgivable" sin? It's the same thing as murder, only by killing oneself.

As a Christian, I really have no idea, but I would say the following are canidates:

Mind Control
Nuclear Holocaust
Performing Abortions*

*This is practically unforgivable in my book, because you would need every single one of the children you murdered to give you complete and wholehearted forgiveness. And that's a lot of kids who are probably really mad.

As a Christian, I really have no idea, but I would say the following are canidates:

Mind Control
Nuclear Holocaust
Performing Abortions*

*This is practically unforgivable in my book, because you would need every single one of the children you murdered to give you complete and wholehearted forgiveness. And that's a lot of kids who are probably really mad.

But the children would be in Heaven.

Not to be supportive though of abortion, I'm all against it except for extreme circumstances.

It is stated that in Christianity should one ask for absolution (ie. forgiveness), it will be given. However, several groups and individuals maintain that there are "unforgiveable sins", one of which is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

Personally, as a Christian I do not think that any sin can be considered "unforgiveable" by immortal standards.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -John 3:16

And honestly, I don't see how calling God a mean name can land you in Hell without possibility of salvation, when a murderer can get off by saying he was sorry.

So, for those of you who practice Christianity, or simply have an educated opinion, I ask this: Is there a sin out there so grievous that it can be considered "unforgivable"?

Thank you.

The only "unforgiveable sin" mentioned in the Bible could only be committed by the Pharasees. Two interpretations:

1. Jesus knew their fate, and their action, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, exemplified why they were doomed.
2. The Pharasees, who first-hand witnessed Jesus' miracles, could only claim that his works were Satan's if their hearts were so blinded that they were a completely lost cause.

Basically, either way, most Biblical scholars would agree that you can't commit a sin unforgivable by God (this is not to say that your sins won't have negative consequences). This is probably the most commonly asked question of pastors because people are afraid they've committed the unforgiveable sin.

How can you ask for absolution when you end your ability to do so?

Suicide

That's where me and the Catholic Church part ways to be honest. While I cannot argue favorably for suicide, I can understand why some resort to it. I don't see how someone can be condemned for trying (albeit misguidedly) to end their suffering.

When it comes to potential suicide, I always say that there is another way, but I personally cannot condemn them.

How is suicide an "unforgivable" sin? It's the same thing as murder, only by killing oneself.
it's not just suicide, but it's taking your judgement over Gods. Judas, for instance, chose to kill himself because he felt that what he did was unforgiveable. He didn't give God a chance to forgive him, he assumed that God wouldn't and cast judgment on himself.

...Mind Control

:eek:

Man...I'm screwed!

It is stated that in Christianity should one ask for absolution (ie. forgiveness), it will be given. However, several groups and individuals maintain that there are "unforgiveable sins", one of which is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

Personally, as a Christian I do not think that any sin can be considered "unforgiveable" by immortal standards.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -John 3:16

And honestly, I don't see how calling God a mean name can land you in Hell without possibility of salvation, when a murderer can get off by saying he was sorry.

So, for those of you who practice Christianity, or simply have an educated opinion, I ask this: Is there a sin out there so grievous that it can be considered "unforgivable"?

Thank you.

I haven't really found any biblical evidence that points to an unforgivable sin, in the sense that if you commit a sin and ask for forgivness that it would be denied to you. There is the belief in my denomination that no one sin is worse than any others, which would explain how someone who lied on thier taxes and a mass murderer are equal in Gods eyes (they both sinned) I am of the understanding that it is a two way road and once you are forgiven your sins no longer have meaning to God. Two sinners who have found forgivness are the same in God's eyes for he chooses to forget your past sins.

"The unforgivable sin of speaking against the Holy Spirit has been interpreted in various ways, but the true meaning cannot contradict other Scripture. It is unequivocally clear that the one unforgivable sin is permanently rejecting Christ (John 3:18; 3:36). Thus, speaking against the Holy Spirit is equivalent to rejecting Christ with such finality that no future repentance is possible. 'My spirit shall not always strive with man,' God said long ago (Genesis 6:3). ...In the context of this particular passage (Matthew 12:22-32), Jesus had performed a great miracle of creation, involving both healing and casting out a demon, but the Pharisees rejected this clear witness of the Holy Spirit. Instead they attributed His powers to Satan, thus demonstrating an attitude permanently resistant to the Spirit, and to the deity and saving Gospel of Christ"
I voted no but that is because I didn't want to confuse someone. but I guess by voting no I did so oh well I hope they read this....

How can you ask for absolution when you end your ability to do so?

With salvation, if ur saved and u die, your sins (even in suicide) were forgiven.

How is suicide an "unforgivable" sin? It's the same thing as murder, only by killing oneself.

If one killed oneself, one would usually be unable to repent and ask for forgiveness before one died (unless one used a really slow working poison or something).

I think that blaspheming the Holy Spirit meant not accepting salvation, that is, not becoming a Christian.

As a Christian, I really have no idea, but I would say the following are canidates:

Mind Control
Nuclear Holocaust
Performing Abortions*

*This is practically unforgivable in my book, because you would need every single one of the children you murdered to give you complete and wholehearted forgiveness. And that's a lot of kids who are probably really mad.
there is no biblical backing to your argument, the people who you have wronged do not need to forgive you, God does.

it's not just suicide, but it's taking your judgement over Gods. Judas, for instance, chose to kill himself because he felt that what he did was unforgiveable. He didn't give God a chance to forgive him, he assumed that God wouldn't and cast judgment on himself.

True, but God had probably forgave Judas seeing as that Judas was meant to do what he did. So God had probably forgiven him from the very begining.

How is suicide an "unforgivable" sin? It's the same thing as murder, only by killing oneself.

Because you have to ask for forgivness. How can you do that if you are dead?

With salvation, if ur saved and u die, your sins (even in suicide) were forgiven.
You can't ask for forgiveness be for you comit the sin it just don't work that way.

It is stated that in Christianity should one ask for absolution (ie. forgiveness), it will be given. However, several groups and individuals maintain that there are "unforgiveable sins", one of which is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

Personally, as a Christian I do not think that any sin can be considered "unforgiveable" by immortal standards.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -John 3:16

And honestly, I don't see how calling God a mean name can land you in Hell without possibility of salvation, when a murderer can get off by saying he was sorry.

So, for those of you who practice Christianity, or simply have an educated opinion, I ask this: Is there a sin out there so grievous that it can be considered "unforgivable"?

Thank you.
From what I can tell, that quote means that anybody who does anything but believes in Christ as their saviour has gained salvation?

If one killed oneself, one would usually be unable to repent and ask for forgiveness before one died (unless one used a really slow working poison or something).

I think that blaspheming the Holy Spirit meant not accepting salvation, that is, not becoming a Christian.

True, but if the suicider is a Christian then he has been forgiven of all his sins, past and future.

Yes, totaly agree with u on the secod paragraph.

If one killed oneself, one would usually be unable to repent and ask for forgiveness before one died (unless one used a really slow working poison or something).

that is where most protestants and the catholic church disagree.
My denomination doesn't believe in conditional salvation. Once saved always saved, what God has given man cannot take away...

You can't ask for forgiveness be for you comit the sin it just don't work that way.

But then y did Jesus die? Was he not the ultimate sacrifice to end all sacrifices? Was he not meant to take away all our sins? In order then for him to do that he'd have to have done it for both past and future sins.

From what I can tell, that quote means that anybody who does anything but believes in Christ as their saviour has gained salvation?

If u believe Christ is your saviour, that he died for ur sins, and was the son of God, and that there is no other way to Heaven but through him, then yes, I'd classify that as salvation.

Because you have to ask for forgivness. How can you do that if you are dead?

Then, if what u say is true, then we're all gonna go to Hell anyways eh :) ?

Not likely.

I just thought of something.

In Midevil Times (Or "Teh Dark Ages"), if the current Pope saw fit (ie. if you pissed him off), he could excomunicate an individual or even entire nations, barring them from the Church, and in effect, condemning them to Hell. Even though it is no longer in practice, do you think suffering excomunication can be equal to commiting an "unforgivable sin"?

that is where most protestants and the catholic church disagree.
My denomination doesn't believe in conditional salvation. Once saved always saved, what God has given man cannot take away...
So you mean you can get saved then go out an kill a bunch of people and your still covered under the original saving.

there is no biblical backing to your argument, the people who you have wronged do not need to forgive you, God does.

Good reply.

If u believe Christ is your saviour, that he died for ur sins, and was the son of God, and that there is no other way to Heaven but through him, then yes, I'd classify that as salvation.
So "you're gay, so you're going to hell" and arguments such as that aren't remotely based in scripture? (provided the homosexual in question has accepted Christ as their saviour)

I had never read that passage before, I'll have to remember it.

So you mean you can get saved then go out an kill a bunch of people and your still covered under the original saving.

Well, otherwise Jesus wouldn't have died, either that or his death was pointless.

True, but if the suicider is a Christian then he has been forgiven of all his sins, past and future.

By committing suicide you are breaking the covenant between yourself and god, you are at once rejecting god and thus are no longer a Christian.

So "you're gay, so you're going to hell" and arguments such as that aren't remotely based in scripture? (provided the homosexual in question has accepted Christ as their saviour)

I had never read that passage before, I'll have to remember it.

Ur only going to Hell if yor not saved, not because "ur gay" or anything like that. It's because of the fact that we sin and therefore cannot get to Heaven by ourselves, only by God. Since the punnishment of sin is death, then God provided the ultimate death for us, Jesus who was perfect and didn't sin.

So you mean you can get saved then go out an kill a bunch of people and your still covered under the original saving.

In all reality, I don't think the whole of humanity is that psychotic.

My personally belief is that eventually all is forgiven for sins commited in our mortal lives.

Essentially, we serve a "sentence" in purgatory equal to what we did in life, then accend from there.

I don't believe in hell.

Ur only going to Hell if yor not saved, not because "ur gay" or anything like that. It's because of the fact that we sin and therefore cannot get to Heaven by ourselves, only by God. Since the punnishment of sin is death, then God provided the ultimate death for us, Jesus who was perfect and didn't sin.
Ah, but the argument many put forward is that homosexual behaviour is directly against the wishes of God, is a terrible sin, and that therefore the homosexual has no chance of getting to Heaven.

But that quote (that whoever accepts Christ is saved) goes directly against that, and competely invalidates their argument.

Well, otherwise Jesus wouldn't have died, either that or his death was pointless.
The reason why Christ Died for our sins is so that we don't have to perform the Old Testement Rituals of Burnt Offerings to be forgiven. Jesus is the last sacrifice provided by God to tear down the need for rituals. now all we need to do is pray and ask for forgiveness, no first lamb, no alters for God. just prayer.

So you mean you can get saved then go out an kill a bunch of people and your still covered under the original saving.
one could argue that if you 'got saved' to get out of hell and then continue to sin unabashedly just as you did before, then you weren't sincere in asking for forgiveness and therefor were not really saved.

Ah, but the argument many put forward is that homosexual behaviour is directly against the wishes of God, is a terrible sin, and that therefore the homosexual has no chance of getting to Heaven.

But that quote (that whoever accepts Christ is saved) goes directly against that, and competely invalidates their argument.Homosexuality is a sin - ergo, you ask God for forgiveness, Simple.

You accept Christ as your savior you are saved, but you still need to ask for forgiveness of your sins.

Ah, but the argument many put forward is that homosexual behaviour is directly against the wishes of God, is a terrible sin, and that therefore the homosexual has no chance of getting to Heaven.

But that quote (that whoever accepts Christ is saved) goes directly against that, and competely invalidates their argument.

John knew what he was talkin' about.

Homosexuality is a sin - ergo, you ask God for forgiveness, Simple.

You accept Christ as your savior you are saved, but you still need to ask for forgiveness of your sins.
But the quote from the OP suggests that all you need to do is accept Christ as your saviour, and whoever does so will receive everlasting life.

John knew what he was talkin' about.
I know, and I plan on using that quote against fundies next time a "homosexuals are going to hell" style argument comes around.

That's where me and the Catholic Church part ways to be honest. While I cannot argue favorably for suicide, I can understand why some resort to it. I don't see how someone can be condemned for trying (albeit misguidedly) to end their suffering.

When it comes to potential suicide, I always say that there is another way, but I personally cannot condemn them.
The logic behind it is that if you commited suicide and it was a mortal sin, you are almost definately in Hell. (Of course, there is the possible exception of repentance before death, but that becomes extremely unlikely in the case of suicide.) The very essence of mortal sin is that it is a sin for which one would go to hell without asking for forgiveness. I know Protestants don't classify sins as mortal and venial but this is the way many Catholics see it: Basically, a mortal sin is a direct rejection of God. Since God woudn't force you to accept Him, it's only natural to believe that He would let you go to Hell if you commit a mortal sin. Now, venial sins are only mistakes. God can definately forgive those and there is not even a need for a complete change of heart on your part (as in the case of mortal sins.) That said, I seriously doubt suicides are ever mortal sins, since most people who commit suicide are mentally disabled or emotionally duressed to the point that they cannot think clearly. As for any sins being unforgivable, no defenately not. Think about it, could you possibly do anything that God could not undo? Of course not.

Ah, but the argument many put forward is that homosexual behaviour is directly against the wishes of God, is a terrible sin, and that therefore the homosexual has no chance of getting to Heaven.

But that quote (that whoever accepts Christ is saved) goes directly against that, and competely invalidates their argument.
actually any sin is going directly against the wishes of God.

Suicides will be sent to Hell after their self-destruction, but that doesn't mean that Suicide in unforgiveable. These people who say it is refuse to give people who commit suicide even a proper burial.

All sin is forgiveable, but that doesn't mean it's going to save you.

actually any sin is going directly against the wishes of God.
I know. The main point of that sentence was the "and that therefore the homosexual has no chance of getting to Heaven."

I understand that my version of an unforgivable sin is not based in Christianity or in any religion, but I myself am not religious and see "unforgivable" as somethign related to our lives here on Earth. Forgiveness would need to come from individuals, not from any higher power. In this case, unforgivable sins are the ones that are irreversible and a result of careless, malicious, or just plain stupid behavior.

Murder is unforgivable. Getting drunk and killing someone with your car, while it isn't murder, is as close to murder as you can get without being murder and should be punished similarly. Abortion is a bit of a gray area...in cases of rape or saving the mother's life, it's not a sin. In cases of a woman getting an abortion just because she doesn't feel like being a parent, it's definitely something to be looked down upon...but an unforgivable sin? I don't quite think it's that bad.

The logic behind it is that if you commited suicide and it was a mortal sin, you are almost definately in Hell. (Of course, there is the possible exception of repentance before death, but that becomes extremely unlikely in the case of suicide.) The very essence of mortal sin is that it is a sin for which one would go to hell without asking for forgiveness. I know Protestants don't classify sins as mortal and venial but this is the way many Catholics see it: Basically, a mortal sin is a direct rejection of God. Since God woudn't force you to accept Him, it's only natural to believe that He would let you go to Hell if you commit a mortal sin. Now, venial sins are only mistakes. God can definately forgive those and there is not even a need for a complete change of heart on your part (as in the case of mortal sins.) That said, I seriously doubt suicides are ever mortal sins, since most people who commit suicide are mentally disabled or emotionally duressed to the point that they cannot think clearly.

I agree with you there.

The way I see it, suicide almost seems like a last resort. A person has been put through so much torment in their lives that the only way to put an end to it is to "shed their mortal coil". In many cases this person in not in the correct state of mind to consider their actions. Suicides can be likened to a case of temporary insanity.

Like I said before, I think that there is always an alternative to suicide, but I cannot judge or condemn a person who has taken their own life, as I have not lived through what drove them to suicide in the first place.

there is no biblical backing to your argument, the people who you have wronged do not need to forgive you, God does.

Not Biblical, but to my personal beliefs.

I believe:

We are judged completely, utterly, etc. on our actions. Our faith matters nothing. Jesus came and showed us how to live, and left us with that. We are given one last chance to repent after death, before God himself. Lying is useless. Repenting out of fear of Hell is useless. You must choose to see your wrongs, and feel sorrow for them.

However, if you commit an act of murder, you must personally ask of the individual forgiveness of all those you murdered. If you repented, I am sure most of them would let you go, but if you are repenting out of fear, I dought even one would give their forgiveness.

I know. The main point of that sentence was the "and that therefore the homosexual has no chance of getting to Heaven."
people who claim that they know who has a chance of going to heaven and who doesn't are just dumb.
I as a Christain can say that. We are not to condemn anyone to hell, we don't even have that power.

But the quote from the OP suggests that all you need to do is accept Christ as your saviour, and whoever does so will receive everlasting life.
true, but it doesn't give Christians a "Blank Check" on forgiveness. we all sin, even the most pious sins. which is why you can accept Jesus and be saved, but you still have to ask for forgiveness for your sins.

one example I was given in church.
"Accepting Christ places your name in the book, it reserves your place in Heaven. however, to sin without remorse, without repenting can still place a wall between you and God. thus we need to ask for fogiveness of those sins, so that God can still be in our hearts and lives. we are still Sinners, even in God's eyes, and so we need to repent and ask forgiveness for our sins. Jesus's sacrifice just made the procedure of asking for Forgiveness easier, which is why you hear of Jesus being referred to as the Lamb of God."

unforgivable is whos eyes? in the cases of even the worst crimes there has to be some one on this earth who cares enough about you to give forgiveness a try.

Not Biblical, but to my personal beliefs.

I believe:

We are judged completely, utterly, etc. on our actions. Our faith matters nothing. Jesus came and showed us how to live, and left us with that. We are given one last chance to repent after death, before God himself. Lying is useless. Repenting out of fear of Hell is useless. You must choose to see your wrongs, and feel sorrow for them.

However, if you commit an act of murder, you must personally ask of the individual forgiveness of all those you murdered. If you repented, I am sure most of them would let you go, but if you are repenting out of fear, I dought even one would give their forgiveness.
where do you get these personal beliefs from? just curious...

true, but it doesn't give Christians a "Blank Check" on forgiveness. we all sin, even the most pious sins. which is why you can accept Jesus and be saved, but you still have to ask for forgiveness for your sins.

one example I was given in church.
"Accepting Christ places your name in the book, it reserves your place in Heaven. however, to sin without remorse, without repenting can still place a wall between you and God. thus we need to ask for fogiveness of those sins, so that God can still be in our hearts and lives. we are still Sinners, even in God's eyes, and so we need to repent and ask forgiveness for our sins. Jesus's sacrifice just made the procedure of asking for Forgiveness easier, which is why you hear of Jesus being referred to as the Lamb of God."
I'll take your word for it, because I can't be bothered going and digging out my bible. But I would still be sceptical of anything a minister/reverend/priest says, mainly because the Bible is always open to interpretation, and it's best to read it yourself and draw your own conclusions (IMO)

By committing suicide you are breaking the covenant between yourself and god, you are at once rejecting god and thus are no longer a Christian.
I agree with this

unforivable to who?
unforgivable is whos eyes? in the cases of even the worst crimes there has to be some one on this earth who cares enough about you to give forgiveness a try.
Unforgivable to Grammer Nazis.

How is suicide an "unforgivable" sin? It's the same thing as murder, only by killing oneself.

interesting, though... once you commit that sin, there is no way to ask forgiveness for it. Is it possible to ask forgiveness for a sin that you are about to commit?

That's where me and the Catholic Church part ways to be honest. While I cannot argue favorably for suicide, I can understand why some resort to it. I don't see how someone can be condemned for trying (albeit misguidedly) to end their suffering.

When it comes to potential suicide, I always say that there is another way, but I personally cannot condemn them.

Both catechism and canon law demand the mental state of the person who killed themself be taken into consideration...Clearly God loves thosse who are in distress and who are ill....(thats why the church DOES bury suicide victims! canon 1184 lists those to be denied a church funeral)
To assume any sin cannot be forgiven, even the sins that cry to heaven, is a sin against the triumph and hope of the Cross. Christs suffering and redeeming of all humanity was for once and for all....to assume there is something not covered by the triumph of Christ is uncatholic and unChristian (now I'm not assumung I'm saved, but I have firm knowledge that I can be redeemed of any sin)

Unforgivable to Grammer Nazis.

grammAr! :headbang:

hehe

I'll take your word for it, because I can't be bothered going and digging out my bible. But I would still be sceptical of anything a minister/reverend/priest says, mainly because the Bible is always open to interpretation, and it's best to read it yourself and draw your own conclusions (IMO)
And you are correct. there are many interpretations to the Bible.

however, As far as I know, there is nothing saying that Christians who accept Jesus as savior is free from sin. I know that by accepting Christ, all things are made new. your past sins are washed away, but as mortals, you can still sin and even God turned from Jesus when all the worlds sins were placed on his shoulders.

Is there an unforgivable sin? I believe there is only one:

In Mathew Jesus CLEARLY says that there is one:

"all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men,
And blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

And in Mark he says:

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man,
It shall be forgiven him:
But whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."


And in Luke:

"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man,
It shall be forgiven him:
But unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven."





These statement seems very clear-cut to me; I don't see how anyone could twist these scriptures to make them obsolete. Jesus said it, so it is true.


"Thus saith the Lord" :D

I'll take your word for it, because I can't be bothered going and digging out my bible. But I would still be sceptical of anything a minister/reverend/priest says, mainly because the Bible is always open to interpretation, and it's best to read it yourself and draw your own conclusions (IMO)

Again, something I agree with you on.

The Bible should be considered a guide (A User's Manual if you will :p). It was written by men, mortals, not God himself. So really it is not his words, but the words of those who are close to Him. The passages in the Bible (save the Ten Commandments) should all be taken with a grain of salt, as they usually contradict themselves.

Use your GOD-GIVEN free will...and make up your own mind.

Unforgivable to Grammer Nazis.
like there isnt anyone out there who hasnt made an error in grammar.
i hope somebody out there will forgive me for my sin against mr. miriam webster

Is there an unforgivable sin? I believe there is only one:

In Mathew Jesus CLEARLY says that there is one:

"all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men,
And blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

And in Mark he says:

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man,
It shall be forgiven him:
But whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."



These statement seems very clear-cut to me
Ooh, I hadn't seen that one before.
If that's true, then I can safely turn away those whowant me to convert by using the Bible against them. Since I have blasphemed before, there is no chance of my going to Heaven, so there's no point in converting, is there?

EDIT:
Actually, it would depend on what exactly 'speaking aganst the Holy Ghost' is, wouldn't it?
What does that mean?

And you are correct. there are many interpretations to the Bible.

however, As far as I know, there is nothing saying that Christians who accept Jesus as savior is free from sin. I know that by accepting Christ, all things are made new. your past sins are washed away, but as mortals, you can still sin and even God turned from Jesus when all the worlds sins were placed on his shoulders.
But the original quote claims that God gave his only son so that whoever accepts him will have everlasting life.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

No, it doesn't say you are free from sin if you believe, but it says you have gained everlasting life.

Not Biblical, but to my personal beliefs.

I believe:

We are judged completely, utterly, etc. on our actions. Our faith matters nothing. Jesus came and showed us how to live, and left us with that. We are given one last chance to repent after death, before God himself. Lying is useless. Repenting out of fear of Hell is useless. You must choose to see your wrongs, and feel sorrow for them.

However, if you commit an act of murder, you must personally ask of the individual forgiveness of all those you murdered. If you repented, I am sure most of them would let you go, but if you are repenting out of fear, I dought even one would give their forgiveness.

you're right... it's not Biblical.

hehe

Ephesians 2:8-9

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

also see John 3:16 (quoted on this site a hundred times probably)

Ooh, I hadn't seen that one before.
If that's true, then I can safely turn away those whowant me to convert by using the Bible against them. Since I have blasphemed before, there is no chance of my going to Heaven, so there's no point in converting, is there?

EDIT:
Actually, it would depend on what exactly 'speaking aganst the Holy Ghost' is, wouldn't it?
What does that mean?


You may have blasphemed before, however unless you said somthing like calling the Holy Ghost "Evil", then yes, there is no salvation. Unfortunatly :(, I may not like it, but thats what it clearly says.


It's probably best just not to do it.....better safe than sorry

Ooh, I hadn't seen that one before.
If that's true, then I can safely turn away those whowant me to convert by using the Bible against them. Since I have blasphemed before, there is no chance of my going to Heaven, so there's no point in converting, is there?

EDIT:
Actually, it would depend on what exactly 'speaking aganst the Holy Ghost' is, wouldn't it?
What does that mean?

The "Holy Ghost" is part of the Holy Trinity.

To put it simply, the Holy Ghost is God. Don't ask me to explain, it's really frickin' complicated.

The "Holy Ghost" is part of the Holy Trinity.

To put it simply, the Holy Ghost is God. Don't ask me to explain, it's really frickin' complicated.

yah

think of it as an ice cube

God the Father is the ice cube

He melted, and water dropped down to Earth in the guise of Jesus, God incarnate.

Jesus went up into heaven and sent us the Holy Spirit, which can be the water vapor/steam.

all three are H2O... just in different forms.

The "Holy Ghost" is part of the Holy Trinity.

To put it simply, the Holy Ghost is God. Don't ask me to explain, it's really frickin' complicated.


There is a degree of differnce between them. Jesus said that if you blasphemed aginst him, than you could be forgiven.....but he said if you blaspeme aginst the holy spirit, then you are eternally damned. :eek:

no as there is no sin

there are things that are wrong that are unforgivable but you just kill those people and get on with things they won't go to heaven or hell (or anything else) just cease to exist

You may have blasphemed before, however unless you said somthing like calling the Holy Ghost "Evil", then yes, there is no salvation. Unfortunatly :(, I may not like it, but thats what it clearly says.


It's probably best just not to do it.....better safe than sorry

Like I said in the OP, I honestly don't think that a wise, all knowing, omnipotent being is vain enough to condemn me to damnation because I called him a nasty name.

If anything, I think God's grown a sense of humor over the millenia, what with all the crap He's seen down here on Earth.

Is there an unforgivable sin? I believe there is only one:

In Mathew Jesus CLEARLY says that there is one:

"all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men,
And blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

And in Mark he says:
"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man,
It shall be forgiven him:
But whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."
And in Luke:

"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man,
It shall be forgiven him:
But unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven."



Of course, all those statemets are pre cross, so unless you hold to a very high form of christology, none of those statements take into account the work of the cross - All is born again with the new adam. *Notes a motive of denial of the work of the cross*

The "Holy Ghost" is part of the Holy Trinity.

To put it simply, the Holy Ghost is God. Don't ask me to explain, it's really frickin' complicated.


wht is the holy trinity

I'm not religious or anyting, but if someone rapes someone (Not statuatory, but real rape) that's just unforgivable and the rapist should be castrated, then he couldn't do it again. Also lying to the public and going to war (like Bush). That shouldn't be easily forgiven either.

wht is the holy trinity

Okay...Christianity 101...

Holy Trinity = Father, Son and Holy Ghost = God

Yes, God is made up of three parts. Again, I ask of you...not to ask...

But the original quote claims that God gave his only son so that whoever accepts him will have everlasting life.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

No, it doesn't say you are free from sin if you believe, but it says you have gained everlasting life.
And that's right. but there is nothing that says you are then free from the taint of sin.

the mistake I think is occuring is that obtaining Everlasting Life isn't the same as needing to repent your sins. By sinning, you are going against God. thus you are rejecting (or at least straying) from his teachings. By asking for forgiveness, you are placing yourself back on the path that God wants you on.

by Accepting God, a place in Heaven is made ready for you. thus you can ask for forgiveness and walk the rightous path, but if you didn't accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, you will find yourself lacking in God's eyes.
on the other hand, if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and still sin, then you are straying from God's path and thus again find yourself lacking.
Even Jesus stresses the importance of Forgiveness in his teachings.

I'm not religious or anyting, but if someone rapes someone (Not statuatory, but real rape) that's just unforgivable and the rapist should be castrated, then he couldn't do it again. Also lying to the public and going to war (like Bush). That shouldn't be easily forgiven either.
And exactly how would castration stop a rapist (considering that rape is, generally, about power not sex)

I'm not religious or anyting, but if someone rapes someone (Not statuatory, but real rape) that's just unforgivable and the rapist should be castrated, then he couldn't do it again. Also lying to the public and going to war (like Bush). That shouldn't be easily forgiven either.

I believe in cases like that, the only person who can "forgive" the offender is the victim. The person would still have to be punished for comitting a crime, but they'd have a clear concience I suppose.

In Bush's case, the victim is the United States of America, and getting forgiveness from 280,000,000 people ain't gonna be easy.

And that's right. but there is nothing that says you are then free from the taint of sin.
Did you read the last line of my post?..."No, it doesn't say you are free from sin if you believe"

the mistake I think is occuring is that obtaining Everlasting Life isn't the same as needing to repent your sins. By sinning, you are going against God. thus you are rejecting (or at least straying) from his teachings. By asking for forgiveness, you are placing yourself back on the path that God wants you on.
And I never said it was the same. All I am saying is that this quote suggests that you don't necessarily need to repent your sins, just accept Christ, and you will gain everlasting life. How can you dispute that? It clearly states that.

by Accepting God, a place in Heaven is made ready for you. thus you can ask for forgiveness and walk the rightous path, but if you didn't accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, you will find yourself lacking in God's eyes.
on the other hand, if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and still sin, then you are straying from God's path and thus again find yourself lacking.
Even Jesus stresses the importance of Forgiveness in his teachings.
I'm not arguing any other point of Christian scripture, just this specific quote.

Yes, there is what Jesus called the "unforgiveable sin". In the case he was dealing with, as quoted above from three separate gospels, it was denying that which was from God as coming from the Devil. The real problem was that the Pharisees, being scholars of the OT, should have known better. They are here being shown signs of Jesus as the Messiah, and yet obstinately deny what is before their very eyes. I've also heard it being applied more generally as denying the gift of salvation, even if you know better. Basicly, the theory is that it is someone knowing that, without God's grace, without the Holy Spirit, they will not go to heaven, and basically saying to God, "No thanks".

I'll touch on a few other issues raised, from the perspective of my Catholic faith. First, suicide is not unforgivable. In one way, there is time between when the act is commited and when the body dies, in which the rapidly expiring person, coming face to face with his own mortality in the most extreme way, is likely to say, "This was a mistake...I'm so sorry." The second way, as mentioned, is that suicides are often attempted by mentaly and emotionally unbalanced people. For something to be considered a mortal sin, one must be cognizant of the depth of its wrongness. Mental illness reduces personal culpability, as many legal systems recognize.

Although this is the wrong place for this discussion, I'll also say this: homosexuality is not a sin. Homosexual acts are sinful, but the urges that lead to them are no more sinful than our urges to lie, cheat, steal, murder, or any other sin. Homosexuality is just one facet of the fallen nature of man.

Finally, a word on mortal and venial sins. As explained early on, mortal sins severe the relationship with God completely...if you die right after a mortal sin, without repenting, you go to Hell. Venial sins strain and bruise the relationship, one could say, but do not break it. Some biblical basis for this belief can be found in 1 John 5 :16-17 "If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly (what we call mortal), he should pray to God and He will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly."

Pax vobiscum

Finally, a word on mortal and venial sins. As explained early on, mortal sins severe the relationship with God completely...if you die right after a mortal sin, without repenting, you go to Hell. Venial sins strain and bruise the relationship, one could say, but do not break it. Some biblical basis for this belief can be found in 1 John 5 :16-17 "If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly (what we call mortal), he should pray to God and He will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly."

Pax vobiscum
And what would be counted as a mortal or venial sin?

That's where me and the Catholic Church part ways to be honest. While I cannot argue favorably for suicide, I can understand why some resort to it. I don't see how someone can be condemned for trying (albeit misguidedly) to end their suffering.

When it comes to potential suicide, I always say that there is another way, but I personally cannot condemn them.

Time for a correction. Suicides may not necessarily be considered sinners, or Hell-bound. In the Catechism, and I'll quote it if you want me to, it states that as we have learned more about mental states such as bipolarism, depression and the like, we have learned that suicide may not be a rational decision. Therefore, suicides may not necessarily go to Hell.

Time for a correction. Suicides may not necessarily be considered sinners, or Hell-bound. In the Catechism, and I'll quote it if you want me to, it states that as we have learned more about mental states such as bipolarism, depression and the like, we have learned that suicide may not be a rational decision. Therefore, suicides may not necessarily go to Hell.

Sadly, for the longest time, the fear of a potential hell is the only that's kept me here. In a way, it could be said that christianity trapped me alive?

*shrug*

As far as regarding that "blasphemy against the holy ghost" is unforgivable, then I'm pretty screwed either way, so even with deep consideration from my part, there is no point in bothering (as someone mentioned above). :eek:

Time for a correction. Suicides may not necessarily be considered sinners, or Hell-bound. In the Catechism, and I'll quote it if you want me to, it states that as we have learned more about mental states such as bipolarism, depression and the like, we have learned that suicide may not be a rational decision. Therefore, suicides may not necessarily go to Hell.
I know this is off topic... and I shouldn't really say it.... my big problem with the Catholic church is that they seem to make up rules that are not scripturally based, and then claim that thier rules are more important than what God actually said. I would like to see the verses on mortal sin and venial sin, as I said in my original post the only unforgivable sin is denying Christ. As for catagorizing sins

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it" James 2:10

Serial rape(-ists), genocide(-al madmen), and those who belive that the only unforgiveable sin is suicide.

Those are the only unforgiveable sins.

I assume the thread author means the biblical/Christian God as the forgiver. Thereore, there is no sin that is unforgiveable. All sin can be forgiven. In fact, every sin that ever was and ever will be has been paid for by Christ.

The moment you accept Christ as your savior, you are justified righteous in the eyes of God. Immediately you are spiritually reborn into eternal life. When you physically die, you will go to heaven, no matter how you die. This is the promise of God.

Let me turn to Scripture:

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentence since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

This is pretty cut and dry. Blasphemy is when someone knows the plan of salvation, becomes saved, is filled with the Holy Gost, and has access to God's Word so that he knows right from wrong turns away from God. I know this will be hard to swallow for some of the brothers who believe once saved always saved, but here it is in God's Word. Let me say this, though. You are correct when you say that nothing can separated us from the Love of God, however, it seems clear from this passage that we can walk away. This seems unimaginable and outragous and it is because it is so outragous that it is unforgivable.

The reference from Hebrews 6 does not mean that one can lose eternal life. If anything, it actually supports OSAS.

The author of Hebrews is referring to those who are already permanently saved, who have returned to the rituals and sacrifices of the Mosaic Law with the misguided intent thereby to regain or maintain eternal life which they falsely perceive as either lost or something which must constantly be maintained by human doing. But the author of Hebrews states that it is impossible to live a life of faith in God while one insists on keeping the Law, as part of ones salvation. Furthermore, it is impossible to maintain something that is already permanently secured and maintained by God alone.

These Hebrew Christians that the author mentions have fallen back into the legalistic practices which were falsely done to receive forgiveness of sin unto eternal life. As believers, they had already received total and complete forgiveness of all of their sins unto eternal life by trusting alone in Jesus Christ alone as their Personal Savior - an act of the grace of God. Now they have gone back to the false practice of rituals and sacrifices in order to 'maintain' their salvation as the Pharisees did - all to no avail. To do this is to virtually crucify Christ all over again - again and again, subjecting Him to public disgrace. It is disgrace b/c it implies that Christ's sacrifice was not enough. The sacrificial practices these fallen away Jewish Christians performed were those that symbolized the complete and total sacrifice - once for all - of Christ on the cross which they had already received the benefit of through faith alone in Christ alone.

Being Fred Phelps.

Seems to me that in Christianity the unforgivable sin is disbelief in Jesus as your lord and savior.

Seems to me that in Christianity the unforgivable sin is disbelief in Jesus as your lord and savior.

But even that sin is forgiven the moment you believe, therefore forgiveable! :)

woah, i just voted no, because thats what i thought before coming into this thread becaus you can always ask God for repentance and he will grant it to you. But if you commit suicide, the oppurtunity to repent is not available, therefore you cannot be sorry for your evil ways. Thats an interesting thought.

It is stated that in Christianity should one ask for absolution (ie. forgiveness), it will be given. However, several groups and individuals maintain that there are "unforgiveable sins", one of which is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

not according to the Catholic Church, at they're the supreem court of Biblical issues

Yes, but how does one blaspheme the Holy Spirit? It has to be a very very serious sin to be unforgiven.

Moreover, once Jesus the Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead, no sin - no sin can be unforgiven, methinks.

Suicide


When one asks for forgivness it is not just for that then and there, and then the past. it is a forgivness for now then and tommarrow.... the only reason people say suicide as an unforgivable sin is becuase people go on the belief that you HAVE to ask for forgivness for every little sin. God only asks this of us becuase he wants us to be open with him. it is not required for every little sin.... all though I am not advocating the absence of asking.

not according to the Catholic Church, at they're the supreem court of Biblical issues

The only authority the Catholic Church has is itself, the Catholic Church.
Only God, the source, is the final authority of all Biblical issues. :)

the only un-forgiveable sin is suicide, takeing your own life.
note - im not christian
the reason suicide is un-forgiveable is becuse it means you dont belive that the higher-entity of your choice has a plan for you (even if the plan only involves you haveing children who later have children who later have children who later cure cancer and have more children)

so all n all, relax and enjoy life :3 its too short as is, why cut it shorter

Porgon']the only un-forgiveable sin is suicide, takeing your own life.
note - im not christian
the reason suicide is un-forgiveable is becuse it means you dont belive that the higher-entity of your choice has a plan for you (even if the plan only involves you haveing children who later have children who later have children who later cure cancer and have more children)

so all n all, relax and enjoy life :3 its too short as is, why cut it shorter


It is true that if one kills himself, he does not have a chance to confess this sin for the 'forgiveness' of it. However it does not mean the person will not go to heaven. If the person who commited suicide was a believer then he will go to heaven because of the promise of God. God's promise is that any person believes in God and accepts Jesus Christ as his savior is immediately spiritually reborn with eternal life (eternal salvation), he is immediately justified righteous before God, and will go to heaven when he dies. His sinful nature (all his sins) that separated us from God has been 'forgiven.'

However the spiritually reborn still live in a human (sinful) body. If this person goes through a tough time, even doubts God will get him through, and takes his own life, he will go to heaven b/c God promised it.

We as believers still can sin and are to always to confess the sins we know about and ask God to forgive us for them. This is for temporary salvation, from consequences those sins may cause and from other wraths of God. God does discipline and punish his children (believers) for their sin but it is for our own good. So there is absolute 'forgiveness' of our sinful nature for eternal salvation and also 'forgiveness' for the daily sin we commit for temporal salvation.