NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9931.htm

http://snipurl.com/h643

wow, just wow. What does everyoen think. This just scares the sh*t outta me.

Not a rehearsal for a theocratic state, standard operating procedure for an increasingly fascist police state.

Get used to it, unless you want it back. Your country, that is.

Good read.

I'll be adding this to my list of reasons why I am proud to say that I have NO patriotic beliefs.

I’ve heard about this before. It doesn’t raise harsh criticism among the average American at all. Sad really, and all the more reason to own a gun.

http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/82205utrave.cfm

maybe thats not the whole story, and watching the video before reading the article, I didn't see any assault or 'police brutality' it looked like pretty standard stuff you might get from any 'extreme police video' type shows, after reading description IN ALL CAPS about alleged brutalities youmight go 'yea... maybe those guys were a little rough' but then just go and watch another episode of 'extremem police videos' or 'Cops' or whatever and you'll see cops doing just the same thing to drunks on the side of the road who get a little aggressive.

I'll be adding this to my list of reasons why I am proud to say that I have NO patriotic beliefs.
This has nothing to do with our nation or the beliefs it was founded upon. It is our government which had become corrupt and now routinely ignores the constitution that is to be reviled. You can be patriotic and disagree with the government, in fact, Jefferson would have recommended it.

Even though everything about this event was legal.

Bullshit. Where's the other side of the story. The loser who wrote this apparently thinks that his shit doesn't stink. I'm supposed to believe that no one there did anything wrong or for god's sake did anything illegal and that the police just happened to "not like" the concert and broke it up. Like I said: bullshit.

I didn't see any assault or 'police brutality'
Even the cops kicking that woman in the red sweatshirt on the ground?

I didn't bother quoting threst of your statement, but... dude, these weren't drunks at the side of the road. Even then, treating drunks at the side of the road like that is more than a bit over-the-top. This was a legal, sanctioned event. I hope the lawsuits don't stop coming over this one.

There should be an independent probe into this, as there was no warrant nor request by the property owner. However, I have a feeling that I know what caused this: poor judgement on the part of the sheriff's office. Sure, raves are bad, but are they really something to go wacky over?

I hope the lawsuits don't stop coming over this one.

You're whining about what you think is wrong with our government or police force while promoting what is wrong with our legal system. America's culture of lawsuits is pathetic, irresponsible, and here you are begging for it to continue. Some social activist you are.

Bullshit. Where's the other side of the story. The loser who wrote this apparently thinks that his shit doesn't stink. I'm supposed to believe that no one there did anything wrong or for god's sake did anything illegal and that the police just happened to "not like" the concert and broke it up. Like I said: bullshit.
How often do you see an event stormed by masked stormtroopers? There's always some illegal activity happening at ANY event, even in frickin' Utah. It's dealt with by uniformed and undercover police officers, not the Army, not the National Guard, not the State Militia.

So what's up with that, huh? And don't tell me it didn't happen- I saw the vid. How was the action taken that night designed to do anything other than harass, intimidate, and, in the pubic eye, criminalize a legitimate, legal, sanctioned gathering of people?

Undelia:

I know what this country was founded on. I also know what it is becoming/has become.
According to Webster's New World Dictionary Patriotism is:
Patriotism: noun. love and loyal or zealous support of one's own country

What have I got to love about this country? Where would I find the will to support the twisted ideals that now fill it? If you can answer these questions well, I may end up revising my views on this country. It wouldn't be unprecedented.

There should be an independent probe into this, as there was no warrant nor request by the property owner. However, I have a feeling that I know what caused this: poor judgement on the part of the sheriff's office. Sure, raves are bad, but are they really something to go wacky over?

If the rave is the site of a massive drug market (and don't say they aren't...I've been to many) then the police have every right to crack down on it. Once again, I doubt this loser who "wrote" the article is telling the whole story. Being one of the "sides," he already CANNOT be impartial.

You're whining about what you think is wrong with our government or police force while promoting what is wrong with our legal system. America's culture of lawsuits is pathetic, irresponsible, and here you are begging for it to continue. Some social activist you are.
I'll take social justice where I can get it. What I saw was an unsocial and unjust action taken by an authoritarian ruling body. What did you see?

If the rave is the site of a massive drug market (and don't say they aren't...I've been to many) then the police have every right to crack down on it. Once again, I doubt this loser who "wrote" the article is telling the whole story. Being one of the "sides," he already CANNOT be impartial.
So let his lawyer be impartial. Man's entitled to his opinion, and as an eye-witness, I think he's got something of interest to report. And opine about.

If the rave is the site of a massive drug market (and don't say they aren't...I've been to many) then the police have every right to crack down on it. Once again, I doubt this loser who "wrote" the article is telling the whole story. Being one of the "sides," he already CANNOT be impartial.
It's not that that disturbs me. It's that the police felt the need to invade private property without a warrant. I guess that may be more common after Kelo vs. New London. What does private property mean in this country, anymore? After all, the police were merely regulating interstate commerce, right?

I’ve heard about this before. It doesn’t raise harsh criticism among the average American at all. Sad really, and all the more reason to own a gun.So that instead of just beating the crap out of you they have a valid reason to shoot you? Very comforting... :(

What have I got to love about this country?

You have the sheer fact that regardless of your ignorance towards your country's history as well as that of the rest of the world, as well as your ignorance towards the world today, you have the goddamn right to act in the ridiculous manner in which you do, making moronic statements about who you dislike the nation in which you live, the nation which has given you everything you've ever owned or and enabled everything you've ever achieved.

Sure, saying "if you don't like it move to iraq" sounds childish, but while whoever came up with that saying probably wasn't really thinking about it, it applies well regardless. Spend some time in some third world countries or even nations such as china and see how quickly you begin to long for the freedoms you have now. Go to China and criticize their government. Commit a crime in sudan and see if you get your miranda rights read to you when you're arrested.

Striving to make America better, or even criticizing its shortcomings is your responsibility as a citizen...but a complete lack of respect for America, a nation which has given you everything, is simply ignorant in the purest meaning of the word. I hope you take what I'm saying to heart and not simply shut your eyes and ears because it's not what you want to hear or agree with as many of your peers do.

I'll take social justice where I can get it. What I saw was an unsocial and unjust action taken by an authoritarian ruling body. What did you see?

I saw a liberal whining about "big brother" cracking down on him while he was at a concert wide-eyed and innocent. I call bullshit. The author has a point to get across and he's not going to let things such as the fact that he was high on X stand in his way.

Undelia:

I know what this country was founded on. I also know what it is becoming/has become.
According to Webster's New World Dictionary Patriotism is:
Patriotism: noun. love and loyal or zealous support of one's own country

What have I got to love about this country? Where would I find the will to support the twisted ideals that now fill it? If you can answer these questions well, I may end up revising my views on this country. It wouldn't be unprecedented.
Here are two more definitions.
n. Love of and devotion to one's country.
n. love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it

I am patriotic because I believe it can be changed. I am devoted to that notion, and I love what our country is at its heart. I have great faith in the generation that is coming of age, my generation. They have shown support for the legalization of gay marriage and support for other civil rights, yet still hold the traditional and proper fear of big government.
I am loyal to the country’s founding principles, and I would die to protect it, if only because everyone I know and love is here.

It's not that that disturbs me. It's that the police felt the need to invade private property without a warrant. I guess that may be more common after Kelo vs. New London. What does private property mean in this country, anymore? After all, the police were merely regulating interstate commerce, right?

I apologize if it was a fact that I missed, but where is it proven that the police did not have a warrent?

You have the sheer fact that regardless of your ignorance towards your country's history as well as that of the rest of the world, as well as your ignorance towards the world today, you have the goddamn right to act in the ridiculous manner in which you do, making moronic statements about who you dislike the nation in which you live, the nation which has given you everything you've ever owned or and enabled everything you've ever achieved.

Sure, saying "if you don't like it move to iraq" sounds childish, but while whoever came up with that saying probably wasn't really thinking about it, it applies well regardless. Spend some time in some third world countries or even nations such as china and see how quickly you begin to long for the freedoms you have now. Go to China and criticize their government. Commit a crime in sudan and see if you get your miranda rights read to you when you're arrested.

Striving to make America better, or even criticizing its shortcomings is your responsibility as a citizen...but a complete lack of respect for America, a nation which has given you everything, is simply ignorant in the purest meaning of the word. I hope you take what I'm saying to heart and not simply shut your eyes and ears because it's not what you want to hear or agree with as many of your peers do.The Netherlands are freer than the US, and not necessarily because of patriotism. You have no right to demand from anyone that they feel the way you do. Feeling ashamed to be American has nothing to do with disrespect to America.

I have great faith in the generation that is coming of age, my generation. They have shown support for the legalization of gay marriage and support for other civil rights, yet still hold the traditional and proper fear of big government.

I have a great fear for our generation...a generation which gets its political opinions from punk-rock, a generation which is more concerned with trendy ideas than the big picture, and a generation so infatuated with MTV politics that being apathetic might be a better option. Oprah, Green Day, and Madonna shouldn't determine who people vote for...but how many people...especially young people...get their only political opinions from MTV commericals around election time or celebrity interviews in teen magazines?

The Netherlands are freer than the US, and not necessarily because of patriotism. You have no right to demand from anyone that they feel the way you do. Feeling ashamed to be American has nothing to do with disrespect to America.

The netherlands are "freer" than the US? What...do they get a 10 on the "free scale" when America only gets a 9? Care to support your claim?

I'm not demanding anyone feel the same way I do. I'm not even attacking liberals here. I'm saying that those who live in America yet constantly bash it, and not even Bush, but the entire nation, are ignorant.

Feeling ashamed to be American is in itself disrespectful to America. Your last statement makes absolutely no sense.

I apologize if it was a fact that I missed, but where is it proven that the police did not have a warrent?
Somewhere on the last page.

I saw a liberal whining about "big brother" cracking down on him while he was at a concert wide-eyed and innocent. I call bullshit. The author has a point to get across and he's not going to let things such as the fact that he was high on X stand in his way.
So you're saying if - and that's still a big unverifiable IF, SB - if this guy was high, there is no validity to what he has to say? To what the video shows?

What kind of fascists are you all becoming down there that it's so frickin' easy to discount anything that anybody has to say - particularly if he does have a 'point to get across'? I think I'd have a whole truckload of points to get across if it'd've been me.

So you're saying if - and that's still a big unverifiable IF, SB - if this guy was high, there is no validity to what he has to say? To what the video shows?

What kind of fascists are you all becoming down there that it's so frickin' easy to discount anything that anybody has to say - particularly if he does have a 'point to get across'? I think I'd have a whole truckload of points to get across if it'd've been me.

I'm saying that videos can be cut and edited and that every story has two sides to it...especially if the author has a specific agenda he or she wants to get across.

I, along with all the others "fascists," have a hard time believing an unofficial, one-sided reported about something which may or may not have happened in the way that they claim it to have. Then again, some people believe democracynow.com and Michael Moore...so my question is...why are you all so naive?

That is very disconcerting... Also, it reminds me of how I'm possibly going to have to find another place to host the annual concert fundraiser for our Literary Magazine that's been hosted at the high school for at least 8 years, and that's just going from when one of the returning alumnus, who helped out my freshman and sophomore years, graduated.

Somewhere on the last page.

It is official or does the guy say "...and the police totally didn't even have a warrant!"

The netherlands are "freer" than the US? What...do they get a 10 on the "free scale" when America only gets a 9? Care to support your claim?There's no no-fly lists for peace activists (or anyone else for that matter)
The police force isn't there to intimidate. Less fear leads to more freedom.
I'm part German, and Dutch patriotism during the European World Cup (and Germany is the arch-nemesis of the Dutch in soccer) got us jovial premature condolences, instead of comments like "you are disrespectful to America for not being proud". It's a whole different way of life that doesn't restrict voicing your opinion.

I'm not demanding anyone feel the same way I do. I'm not even attacking liberals here. I'm saying that those who live in America yet constantly bash it, and not even Bush, but the entire nation, are ignorant.

Feeling ashamed to be American is in itself disrespectful to America. Your last statement makes absolutely no sense.You can feel ashamed of being American for more than just the shape of the land. It has nothing to do with being disrespectful to America. Hating America would be, but being ashamed for a lot of the crap that has been pulled off in the name of "America" and "freedom" and "our values" is not. And imagine the shame when you see that only the methods and not the mentality change over time.
Being ashamed of being American has to do with being respectful to the Chileans, Iranians, Vietnamese and all the other people that have suffered or do suffer do to Americans defending "freedom."
Don't get me wrong, America does a lot of good, and it made me a bit proud that the President finally upped aid for the tsunami victims, but overall, too many freedoms have been taken away in the name of a crusade for freedom too often for some people to accept that there is little change.
I'm speaking as an American, btw.

I'm saying that videos can be cut and edited and that every story has two sides to it...especially if the author has a specific agenda he or she wants to get across.

I, along with all the others "fascists," have a hard time believing an unofficial, one-sided reported about something which may or may not have happened in the way that they claim it to have. Then again, some people believe democracynow.com and Michael Moore...so my question is...why are you all so naive?

Mainly because authorities are needlessly hostile. Law enforcement, Military, Politicians. They all hate the youth of the nation anyway. As evidenced by a major blow against our Lit Mag by the head of Law Enforcement at the school who had never, previously voiced anything against us, all of a sudden tried to get us banned. This was development fortunately was brought to light the following monday or tuesday. So there wasn't any wasted thanks or gestures of goodwill or any belike things amounting to non-monetary bribery.

So, you want to believe bad things about those who hate you. Especially when they hate you both as an individual and for the groups you're involved with. Being part of the young, more liberal semi-idealistic community of writers and being involved in the other arts to a degree in addition to health problems and a tendency to come up with questions that people can't answer very well or at all.

So in short, it's because of irreconciable differences between the old generation and the newer one. That and the whole spectrum of human personalities, etc. Plus the environment one grows up in can definitely have an impact on how well they can peacefully coexist with others.

And to be quite frank. Humanity in general has a hard time dealing with issues of conflict such as politics without some emotions being stirred up and something deeper than mere difference in belief existing. It's not just the beliefs, there's the indoctrination, the stubbornness, the hate, fear, disgust, revulsion, nasty feeling emotions who we don't have names for that mix together along with some or all of these other feelings, and then there's the ones whose names I've just neglected to mention.

So in short. Absolutely nothing.

I have a great fear for our generation...a generation which gets its political opinions from punk-rock, a generation which is more concerned with trendy ideas than the big picture, and a generation so infatuated with MTV politics that being apathetic might be a better option. Oprah, Green Day, and Madonna shouldn't determine who people vote for...but how many people...especially young people...get their only political opinions from MTV commericals around election time or celebrity interviews in teen magazines?
All things they will outgrow in time. Where do you suppose the previous generation got their opinions from when they were young? Pop culture has always influenced children.

@Laerod: Don’t the Netherlands have hate speech laws, though. Those creep me out.

You have the sheer fact that regardless of your ignorance towards your country's history as well as that of the rest of the world, as well as your ignorance towards the world today, you have the goddamn right to act in the ridiculous manner in which you do, making moronic statements about who you dislike the nation in which you live, the nation which has given you everything you've ever owned or and enabled everything you've ever achieved.

Sure, saying "if you don't like it move to iraq" sounds childish, but while whoever came up with that saying probably wasn't really thinking about it, it applies well regardless. Spend some time in some third world countries or even nations such as china and see how quickly you begin to long for the freedoms you have now. Go to China and criticize their government. Commit a crime in sudan and see if you get your miranda rights read to you when you're arrested.

Striving to make America better, or even criticizing its shortcomings is your responsibility as a citizen...but a complete lack of respect for America, a nation which has given you everything, is simply ignorant in the purest meaning of the word. I hope you take what I'm saying to heart and not simply shut your eyes and ears because it's not what you want to hear or agree with as many of your peers do.

In case you were wondering, I'm not a big fan of most elements of pop culture. MTV and television in general are things that I don't spend much time on at all. I actually do know something of our nation's history, but that isn't what it IS. What was, was. Believe it or not, one of the things I like least about America is the culture. The people that make it up. Some are very good people and I respect them for that. But when 'Democrats vs Republicans', 'zombie cliches', Michael Jackson's problems and sports take precedence over things like this http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=439980 or other social justice issues I start to get fed up with America. When I turn on the news and hear more about homicides and abuse than I do about how to remedy the problems I GET PISSED OFF! If I am ignorant, I am certainly not alone.

I may be a fairly typical seeming middle class American suburbanite now, but what about ten years from now? What happens when I'm voluneering more hours in a month at a homeless shelter than you have volunteered in your whole life? What will you say when I'm trying to get by on 20-30k a year? How about when I talk your kid out of committing suicide and into getting help? You don't know me pal. I lack respect for America because while millionaires are debating things like gay marriage and civil rights Americans are fucking starving. If you want to do something for human rights then do something to clean up the shitholes of America.

When I look at America I see more than just a corporate police state in the making. I see an aristocracy proclaiming wonderful things while slandering the half that calls itself by a different name. I feel embarrassed that I have all the opportunities that I do while some who live within a 20 minute drive of my house are out on the streets. There is a reason why I am against war. There is a reason why I plan on going into youth ministry. I'm working to use my own opportunities for the betterment of others. Tell me you're doing the same.

@Laerod: Don’t the Netherlands have hate speech laws, though. Those creep me out.They deal with them in a matter that's praiseworthy. I don't know if you've been there at all, but the Anne Frank house in Amsterdam had an exhibit on Freedom of Speech vs. Freedom from Persecution, when I was there a bit more than a year ago. Any anti-hate laws are addressed vehemently and thoroughly discussed to ensure that there is no unnecessary curtailing of rights.
The exhibit consisted of little voting knobs that you could press. All the while, different real life issues that had come up where documented and at the end the question whether the victims of hate speech should be protected or the speakers' right to voice their opinion. Scenarios included the chanting of racist mottos by the fans of a soccer club, insulting statements by Pim Forteyn (a homosexual rightwing populist that considered islam and immigration as inherently evil), and the failed trial to ban the NPD, a German neo-nazi party.
They take the issue of anti-hate laws very seriously and I'd say its a lot freer than Germany on that account.

-snip-
If that is actually what you do (not saying you won’t just a qualifier):
Then I would call you a great American, even if you wouldn’t appreciate the title.

In short, yay for ego-centricity that's around a group of people instead of just the single person. Selfish for a cause.

And to all a sleepless night.

They deal with them in a matter that's praiseworthy. I don't know if you've been there at all, but the Anne Frank house in Amsterdam had an exhibit on Freedom of Speech vs. Freedom from Persecution, when I was there a bit more than a year ago. Any anti-hate laws are addressed vehemently and thoroughly discussed to ensure that there is no unnecessary curtailing of rights.
The exhibit consisted of little voting knobs that you could press. All the while, different real life issues that had come up where documented and at the end the question whether the victims of hate speech should be protected or the speakers' right to voice their opinion. Scenarios included the chanting of racist mottos by the fans of a soccer club, insulting statements by Pim Forteyn (a homosexual rightwing populist that considered islam and immigration as inherently evil), and the failed trial to ban the NPD, a German neo-nazi party.
They take the issue of anti-hate laws very seriously and I'd say its a lot freer than Germany on that account.
I believe that people have a natural right to freedom of speech, and view any curtailing of that as reprehensible, no matter how honorable the intentions, especially if its on private property.

Here are two more definitions.
n. Love of and devotion to one's country.
n. love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it

I am patriotic because I believe it can be changed. I am devoted to that notion, and I love what our country is at its heart. I have great faith in the generation that is coming of age, my generation. They have shown support for the legalization of gay marriage and support for other civil rights, yet still hold the traditional and proper fear of big government.
I am loyal to the country’s founding principles, and I would die to protect it, if only because everyone I know and love is here.

Undelia:

First off, thank you for keeping this civil. It makes discussion much easier. Next, so long as I stick to my plan in life, I will be making sacrifices that benefit America. I may lack respect for the country as it is now, but I have a duty to God that I feel I must fulfill. Part of that is making this world a better place through things like youth ministry and getting youth involved in social justice programs. Namely, I'd like to emulate or support an existing program like one that exists in the city I live near. It's called the House of Mercy. Inner city kids (ages ranging from about 2 to 17) from all sorts of backgrounds (abuse, alcoholic parents, drugs, etc) go to a run down house and they can play games, get meals (which they likely wouldn't get otherwise) and escape from the harsh reality of home life. Basically, even if I don't love America, I will still do things to support her. I think we still disagree on some points, but hopefully that can show you my position a little bit more clearly.

I'd like to contribute a quote from the former Federal President of Germany Johannes Rau:
"Patriotism is the love for your own country; Nationalism is the hatred for all others."
I don't know whether to love or hate him for saying it, because it's exactly what I've come up with independently, and now he reaps credit for it... :D

I'd like to contribute a quote from the former Federal President of Germany Johannes Rau:
"Patriotism is the love for your own country; Nationalism is the hatred for all others."
I don't know whether to love or hate him for saying it, because it's exactly what I've come up with independently, and now he reaps credit for it... :D
Wait… That’s what I thought too. Are you sure that guy didn't rediscover some secret mind reading machine invented by some crazy Nazi? :p

In case you were wondering, I'm not a big fan of most elements of pop culture. MTV and television in general are things that I don't spend much time on at all. I actually do know something of our nation's history, but that isn't what it IS. What was, was. Believe it or not, one of the things I like least about America is the culture. The people that make it up. Some are very good people and I respect them for that. But when 'Democrats vs Republicans', 'zombie cliches', Michael Jackson's problems and sports take precedence over things like this http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=439980 or other social justice issues I start to get fed up with America. When I turn on the news and hear more about homicides and abuse than I do about how to remedy the problems I GET PISSED OFF! If I am ignorant, I am certainly not alone.

I may be a fairly typical seeming middle class American suburbanite now, but what about ten years from now? What happens when I'm voluneering more hours in a month at a homeless shelter than you have volunteered in your whole life? What will you say when I'm trying to get by on 20-30k a year? How about when I talk your kid out of committing suicide and into getting help? You don't know me pal. I lack respect for America because while millionaires are debating things like gay marriage and civil rights Americans are fucking starving. If you want to do something for human rights then do something to clean up the shitholes of America.

When I look at America I see more than just a corporate police state in the making. I see an aristocracy proclaiming wonderful things while slandering the half that calls itself by a different name. I feel embarrassed that I have all the opportunities that I do while some who live within a 20 minute drive of my house are out on the streets. There is a reason why I am against war. There is a reason why I plan on going into youth ministry. I'm working to use my own opportunities for the betterment of others. Tell me you're doing the same.

It's amazing how much we can agree on while still disagreeing on such fundamental levels. Of course the general forum is retarded, and of course things such as "dems vs. reps" will get more "coverage" than true serious topics, but that's because that's what people want to read. Same with the news. Murder makes a great headline. Sports excite people. Do not be under the illusion that the general forum or the news is supposed to enlighten people in any way.

What about in ten years? In ten years it will only prove to each of us how different we are. You're going to go into volunteer work and live off 30k? I commend you for doing what you want to do and not getting a job with computers like every other person who is too afraid to make their dream a reality if their dream happens not to conform with society. Trust me, I had a friend who was a great artist but never did anything about it because as a rich kid, "that's not a life he thought he could lead." In ten years I'll be out of law school and either working with business or constitutional law. I won't touch criminal or civil law for the lack of money in the former and the lack of dignity in the later. I'll be living well, in the life that I wish to live, and if my kids are ever suicidal and you happen to talk them out of it, I will thank you with all my heart.

I completely agree with you about how the lowest and poorest of society should be the forefront of domestic politics, yet I can almost assure you that we have drastically different opinions on how to raise the bastards from the ashes. However where you feel guilt I feel thankful. My parents worked their asses off to get me and themselves to where we are today and I couldn't thank them enough. Do I feel embarassed that someone on the other side of town didn't have parents who worked two jobs to get through college so that their children would have better lives than they had? No.

I'm taking full advantage of the oppertunites set before me to better myself so that ultimately I am able to help others. I want my family to be secure, I want my children's lives to be stable, and I want someday to be financially secure enough to donate a significant amount of money to help clean up the streets. Am I ultimately looking out for myself? You're damn right. Am I, in doing that, looking out for my eventual family and potentially others. You're damn right.

I believe that people have a natural right to freedom of speech, and view any curtailing of that as reprehensible, no matter how honorable the intentions, especially if its on private property.I'd say it depends on the situation. You can still get away with a lot of things anywhere in Europe. Technically, you can say whatever you want in the confines of your home. You might not like Germany's hate-speech laws, but I think you won't mind our laws on surveillance. It's extremely difficult for the police to just tap into someone's home and listen in on them. We've just had a decision that affirms an irrevocable zone of privacy to everyone, specifically on the case where the police listened in on a man that was talking to himself while in a hospital room. His privacy was affirmed.
Hate speech usually doesn't affect anyone unless they do it publicly and with malicious intent. And even then there's differences between hate speech and normal offensive behavior. And I personally prefer living in a country that bans having racist rallyes next to sensitive locations such as the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin rather than banning skate boarding ;)

Wait… That’s what I thought too. Are you sure that guy didn't rediscover some secret mind reading machine invented by some crazy Nazi? :pMaybe it just means that it's a really good idea. :)

Steel Butterfly:

Thank you for your understanding. You're right about a lot of my generation. It's formed a lot of the framework from which I view the world and more specifically the US. Just remember that not every high schooler fits the stereotypes. I hope we can continue to get along in this forum in the future. If I've learned one thing from this, it's that I should briefly preface statements like the first one I made in this thread with some of my views before just making some belligerent remark like I did. Sorry I didn't do it this time.

I'd say it depends on the situation. You can still get away with a lot of things anywhere in Europe. Technically, you can say whatever you want in the confines of your home. You might not like Germany's hate-speech laws, but I think you won't mind our laws on surveillance. It's extremely difficult for the police to just tap into someone's home and listen in on them. We've just had a decision that affirms an irrevocable zone of privacy to everyone, specifically on the case where the police listened in on a man that was talking to himself while in a hospital room. His privacy was affirmed.
Hate speech usually doesn't affect anyone unless they do it publicly and with malicious intent. And even then there's differences between hate speech and normal offensive behavior. And I personally prefer living in a country that bans having racist rallyes next to sensitive locations such as the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin rather than banning skate boarding ;)
Yeah, I have to admit, German have a lot of respect for civil liberties even if I don‘t agree with some of their definitions of the term. Now if they just got rid of all that socialism nonsense. :D
As for the skateboarding thing, if people didn’t sue for ten million dollars whenever they got a twisted ankle on someone else’s property, it wouldn’t be such a big deal. (my family was almost sued because somebody’s daughter tripped running along a side walk in front of our house)
Maybe it just means that it's a really good idea. :)
A crazy Nazi invention sounds cooler.

Look there are two ways of looking at this. One is the basic reaction of alot of young Americans. "What the hell! How can they do this?!!! I have rights you know!". I will agree 100% with that statement. Second way is the police way. This young kids are partying smoking drugs, taking X, drinking underage and basic anarchy. Which this could be true too. So its a difficult thing to really comment on without knowing all the facts of the situation.

I have been at dozens of keggers and had parties thrown at my house when I was young. I got raided by the police more times than I can truly remember. This is what they do to young people. This has been going on for a very very long time. You are not truly free to do what you want without police interference. Its a common fallacy in this nation and other nations. The police can make up whatever excuse they want in order to bother you. It is a fact of life. They just decided at this point in time to bust up some young peoples party because it would cause all sorts of shit for them if they did it to a middle aged get together uptown. Alot of police get off on this type of bust.

Does an independant investigation need to take place. Yes it sure does. Any criminal acts by these police need to be dealt with swiftly. Possible monetary damages also for lost property.

Steel Butterfly:

Thank you for your understanding. You're right about a lot of my generation. It's formed a lot of the framework from which I view the world and more specifically the US. Just remember that not every high schooler fits the stereotypes. I hope we can continue to get along in this forum in the future. If I've learned one thing from this, it's that I should briefly preface statements like the first one I made in this thread with some of my views before just making some belligerent remark like I did. Sorry I didn't do it this time.

It's alright. Frankly I'm amazed I didn't just outright piss you off. I have that effect on many people here...lol

I would like to know why this is thought to represent the United States as a whole. This (http://www.4utah.com/local_news/local_headlines/story.aspx?content_id=C6E0F222-D9B7-4898-93CE-E8ECF01F1E78) is the article from the Utah ABC news web site. It says in here that the raid was ordered by the Utah County Sheriff, not 'the United States'. Furthermore, the video shown here (http://www.4utah.com/mediacenter/default.aspx?videoId=23374) does not show anything that doesn't happen in other arrests. That does not mean that abuse did not occur. It just means that none of it was caught on video. Furthermore, there have been no formal complaints filed as of when that news station reported on the incident. This leads us to wonder whether any abuse actually occrred. If it did, then someone will file a report shortly. If it did not then no one will and we'll soon forget that this ever happened.

This raid is going to be thoroughly investigated, the participants will have a performance review, and someone will be taken to court. Until we see what the courts have to say about this we cannot blindly say that 'the United States supports treating ravers like terrorists!'. Don't expect it to be an open and shut case with the police being found guilty of excessive force. This isn't the first drug raid in our nation's history. I don't know if there is precedent for something on this scale, but it's certainly doesn't indicate the beginnings of a theocratic state.

How often do you see an event stormed by masked stormtroopers? There's always some illegal activity happening at ANY event, even in frickin' Utah. It's dealt with by uniformed and undercover police officers, not the Army, not the National Guard, not the State Militia.

So what's up with that, huh? And don't tell me it didn't happen- I saw the vid. How was the action taken that night designed to do anything other than harass, intimidate, and, in the pubic eye, criminalize a legitimate, legal, sanctioned gathering of people?


If it went down like what the video is showing. No real crimes commited except some drug use than I think there needs to be Hell brought down on these police commanders. If I were personally there I would want someones head on a stake for this. As a combat veteran I would take on any one of these pussies that were beating people needlessly. This isnt what I fought for this nation for. This makes me angry. I hope it comes to light all the details and people are punished if need be.

If this is true, then the people who organized the bust should be dragged into an alley and shot.

Because we all know that it is a crime to gather in large numbers for the purpose of, ya know, listening to music.

People, you're overreacting. The video itself doesn't show anything too extreme, and a one sided account is not hard evidence. Also, I doubt the police just randomly invaded the party; why would they want to?

cuz emirica da fazistz! loke, tatallay!

People, you're overreacting. The video itself doesn't show anything too extreme, and a one sided account is not hard evidence. Also, I doubt the police just randomly invaded the party; why would they want to?


Well its lots of fun of course.

Even the cops kicking that woman in the red sweatshirt on the ground?

I didn't bother quoting threst of your statement, but... dude, these weren't drunks at the side of the road. Even then, treating drunks at the side of the road like that is more than a bit over-the-top. This was a legal, sanctioned event. I hope the lawsuits don't stop coming over this one.
EXCUSE ME? did you even WATCH that clip? There were no police kicking anybody, the one woman in a red sweater was being subdued in a fully routine matter, and the only other possible 'police brutality' on the tape is so shrouded in shadow and covered by 'police' that you couldn't tell what was going on.
After watchin this video a few more times, There's some more problem with it. FO one, the supposed 'police' don't match the profile of any law enforcement or military agency in America, The helmets and gear load are wrong (take a look at pictures from Iraq, the army doesn't use helmets like that, they don't equip themselves like that for a 'sting' operation), Those so called soldiers looked more like they had no idea what they were doing in uniform, water canteens clipped awkwardly to their back (U.S. Military uses camel backs, no U.S. law enforcement agency uses water containment devices of any sort). Furthermore, they didn;t have ANY gas masks or face shields (Standard for following in gas and in riot control, which is very similiar operation to a sting on a rave, Honestly, it was a rave, you can't tell me all that smoke wasn't from a couple of good rented fog machines) And the uniform was decidedly non SWAT (no American SWAT Team uses camoflauge, they use dark grey or blak uniforms with the word S.W.A.T. emblazoned on the back)
Other things that bothered me:
The Supposed police took no notice of the camera, whereas it is standard doctrine to make sure that legal law enforcement personell control ALL recordings of a possible crime or counter crime operation.
There doesn't seem to be much coordination, procedure for this sort of operation would be a quick, well coordinated sting, officers would move in from all entrances and they would move fast, no pussyfooting around, they ravers would have had to have been stoned to not notice the operation in progress (once it passed the doors).
No sounds of the alleged helicopter, Unless it was a special operation by a SOC military force (unlikely, they're even more coordinated than swat teams and are much better equipped than these guys) They only have a commercially available helicopter and those things are NOISY, it would be obvious even over very VERY loud music, especially on a video recorder (those thigns pick up the most random background noises, and helicopters are right in that range)
The weapons that are in the video are handled unprofessionally, they set their guns down, lean them things and generally act like idiots with their guns, not even a rent a cop handles guns that poorly.
There's a general lack of equipment on the cammoflauged 'police', they don't have badges, they don't have tasers, Maglites, or pepper spray, no MP-5 or MP-7 SMGs (used by U.S. military and SWAT teams alike as standard weaponry for this kind of operation) and no obvious bullet proof vests (also standard for this type of operation)

I don't know who the guys in camoflauge were but they weren't any sort of government or civil agency (not police or Military in any shape form or fashion)

Another thing bothers me: News coverage, give me at least one credible news source that covered this incident, just one, this is the kind of thing reporters are routinely on hand to observe, and an operation as botched as this one should have gotten front page in just about every paper and top billings on all the news shows, and don't say it was covered up from the media, NOTHING happens in law enforcement that doesn't find its way to media, if a reporter even gets the feeling that a contact is lying to him/her, (s)he'll come down on the story like the wrath of god,


COngratulations Ladies and Gentlemen, You have just been Hoaxed, skillfully I'll admit, I was almost fooled until I read the article and found that the description and the reality did not mesh, furthermore, a trusty google search (and a good memory for news) failed to turn up credible matches.

COngratulations Ladies and Gentlemen, You have just been Hoaxed,

I told your asses

COngratulations Ladies and Gentlemen, You have just been Hoaxed, skillfully I'll admit, I was almost fooled until I read the article and found that the description and the reality did not mesh, furthermore, a trusty google search (and a good memory for news) failed to turn up credible matches.
There was an article on it in a Utah newspaper that was linked in one of the earlier threads. It was more pro-police than the ravers' accounts.

Edit: Found it (http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2961967)
The Salt Lake Tribune put something on it.
Even if the video might have been a hoax, the event wasn't.

KUTV (http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_233220802.html)
Gilbert says a 17-year-old West Jordan girl was found overdosed on Ecstasy, and was treated and released to her parents.

He said there were more than 250 people at the party. That is the number for which the county requires a permit, bond and county commission approval. Gilbert said the party did not have that approval.

But promoters disagree, saying they spent thousands of dollars to get permits for the event.

“We spent all this money to do things legally and right, and all the sudden it becomes illegal to do something legal,” said party organizer, Nick Mari.

Mari said they hired security to search everyone and confiscate any drugs or alcohol.if the Sheriff's dept could not find those Permits that the organizers said they had, looks like someone got Conned.
also if they had Security to search for drugs... looks like they paid too much for security. In fact, it appears that the security people had drugs on them. not good!

Utah County Online (http://www.utahcountyonline.org/News/DeptNewsDetails.asp?ID=17759&WN_System=SHERIFF)
Around noon on Saturday, August 20th, the Sheriff's office learned that the Rave Party was to take place in the Diamond Fork area located in Spanish Fork canyon at the Child's ranch. At that point it was again verified that the Utah County Commissioner's office had no knowledge of this nor had a permit been obtained.

At 9 pm the Rave party began and by 10 pm Major Crimes observed numerous illegal activities. Which included illegal use of drugs, distribution of drugs, and underage consumption of alcohol. again the mention of Illegal drugs on site. and also the lack of permit.

Salt lake Tribune (http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2961967)
Daily Herald (http://www.harktheherald.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=62703&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0)

Now, the promoters are at fault for if they did obtain a Permit, it would be on the premises with one of their employees so that if there is any problems they would have all their legal paperwork on hand. if it was with them, then they would show it to the police and the problem of why the authorities could not find the permit would be brought to the surface.

if the Sheriff's dept could not find those Permits that the organizers said they had, looks like someone got Conned.
also if they had Security to search for drugs... looks like they paid too much for security. In fact, it appears that the security people had drugs on them. not good!Right. The resoning why the security had drugs was... BECAUSE THEY CONFISCATED IT FROM THE PEOPLE THEY SEARCHED. Does that possibly explain why they would have any?
It still seems like there's a coverup going on. It's not proven, but an older poster with a knack for law enforcement made clear just how bad it would be if the police turned out to be wrong, so I see no reason why they would openly admit they screwed up and would do their best to cover it up. I don't doubt these newspapers take police sources with more credibilty than the ravers, so that would explain why all those news services are pumping out "Party's over" articles.

Neither is proven yet.

Right. The resoning why the security had drugs was... BECAUSE THEY CONFISCATED IT FROM THE PEOPLE THEY SEARCHED. Does that possibly explain why they would have any?
It still seems like there's a coverup going on. It's not proven, but an older poster with a knack for law enforcement made clear just how bad it would be if the police turned out to be wrong, so I see no reason why they would openly admit they screwed up and would do their best to cover it up. I don't doubt these newspapers take police sources with more credibilty than the ravers, so that would explain why all those news services are pumping out "Party's over" articles.

Neither is proven yet.Proper measures would be the Drugs secured the moment they were found, not kept on the security's person. Remember, they were suppose to be searching for the drugs at the entrance. the fact that at least one person almosed OD on escasy means they were not enough.

and you are right, it would be bad for the police to screw up. so that is why they checked to make sure permits were filed before they went in. they also had undercover agents in the crowd and they called for the raid when many incidents of Illegal Activities were witnessed.

AND WHERE IS THE PROMOTER'S COPY OF THE PERMIT? strange that they won't have that on hand.

I will admit tho. I will not jump to conclusions, the Promoters may have been scammed or worse. but I am not assigning blame on anyone yet. I will leave that to the lawyers and judge.

Someone seriously needs to kill the bush regime :sniper:

Someone seriously needs to kill the bush regime :sniper:

Yes...I wish I was cool enough to randomly insult the president in a thread totally unrelated to the president in question. I'm not even going to talk about the amazingly awsome sniper smiley...that's too cool for me to even fathom. I bow to you, Turkishsquirrel, for your intelligence, your wit, your understanding of politics, and your general cool-ness.

Someone seriously needs to kill the bush regime :sniper:

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