NationStates Jolt Archive

COMMENTARY: Now the French, already certified as losers, add yet another black mark to their tranished record by accusing Lance Armstrong, a true American hero, of using dope to win the Tour de France. This has to be a new low, even for the French!


Armstrong Is Accused of Doping (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/24/sports/othersports/24cycling.html?th&emc=th)


By SAMUEL ABT
Published: August 24, 2005

PARIS, Aug. 23 - The French sports newspaper L'Équipe reported Tuesday that Lance Armstrong used an illegal performance-enhancing drug in 1999 to win his first of seven consecutive Tours de France.

"Lance Armstrong has used EPO," the banned erythropoietin, to increase the red blood corpuscles that carry oxygen to muscles, the newspaper stated in a four-page report that began with a front-page headline, "The Armstrong Lie."

The 33-year-old Armstrong, who retired July 24 after his latest Tour victory, strongly denied the charge. "Unfortunately, the witch hunt continues," he said on his Web site, adding that the "article was nothing short of tabloid journalism."

He added, "I will simply restate what I have said many times: I have never taken performance-enhancing drugs."

Jean-Marie Leblanc, the director of the Tour, called the newspaper's report "very complete, very professional, very meticulous." He said on RTL radio that the charge appeared credible. Leblanc added that disciplinary action was unlikely because the tests were based on only the second, or B, urine samples. The A sample was tested in 1999 but was not frozen.

No tests for EPO were available in 1999.

Armstrong has been under suspicion and investigated a handful of times since his comeback in 1999 from testicular cancer, but has never been found guilty of doping.

The tests were done at the Chatenay-Malabry laboratory outside Paris last year to help scientists refine EPO detection methods, the paper said.

The lab confirmed that it had conducted the tests, but said it could not confirm that the samples were Armstrong's because the labels were identified only by six-digit numbers.

L'Équipe said it had decoded the labels by matching each sample with forms filed with the French Cycling Federation during the Tour. Those forms, filled out each time a sample was taken in a drug test, identified the donor by name as well as the six digits on his urine sample.

L'Équipe reproduced what it said were the results of the laboratory's tests, with sample number, and the forms with the same number and Armstrong's name. L'Équipe, which said it had conducted "a long, painstaking and rigorous investigation," reproduced what it said were EPO tests on frozen urine samples taken from riders during the 1999 Tour.

Doctors commonly store blood, urine and other samples so they can do tests that may become necessary or available years after the samples were taken. They usually compare those tests with control samples to make sure that freezing or other storage techniques do not distort the findings.

In a drug test, for example, they may compare a suspect sample of stored blood with one that contains no drugs. Six samples that the paper said were taken from Armstrong proved positive for the "indisputable" use of EPO, the paper said. It added that six other samples from riders who were not identified had also proved positive. "It cannot be regarded as a positive test in the strict regulatory sense," the newspaper said, doubting that French sanctions could result.

L'Équipe said the World Anti-Doping Agency or the United States Anti-Doping Agency could act, but that appeared unlikely even if the charges were further substantiated. The French sports minister, Jean-François Lamour, told The Associated Press that because the A sample was discarded after the initial 1999 testing, the B sample would not be enough to pursue charges and punishment.

The sample also predates the formation of the World Anti-Doping Agency, which was formed in 2000 to administer Olympic drug testing worldwide, and the United States Anti-Doping Agency, also started in 2000.

"If anything were found, we couldn't do anything because we didn't even exist in 1999," said the world agency's chairman, Richard Pound. Still, Pound encouraged the international and United States cycling federations to look into the allegations, saying, "It's important that the truth must always be made clear."

Clarity, though, may be elusive. There was no worldwide standard on freezing samples until 2004, when the world agency's code was adopted by most countries to govern such matters. And the reliability of the urine test for EPO, first used in 2000, has been a source of concern.

As he continued to win the Tour de France, Armstrong was occasionally the target of doping suspicions in L'Équipe, which is owned by the same company that owns the Tour de France, Amaury Sports.

Miguel Indurain of Spain, who won the Tour five times in the 1990's, was quoted as saying on the Web site todociclismo.com Tuesday, "They have been out to get him in France for a number of years."

Armstrong is suing The Sunday Times of London for reprinting doping charges made in a book, "L.A. Confidential, the Secrets of Lance Armstrong," in 2004.

In the month since his retirement, Armstrong has spent time with his three children and his companion, the singer Sheryl Crow, and he has worked for his cancer foundation. On Saturday, he visited President Bush's ranch, where they rode mountain bikes. Armstrong pressed him for more research funds to fight cancer.

Lynn Zinser and Lawrence K. Altman contributed reporting for this article.

Ashamed that an American won several times in a row, they are?

EDIT: Yoda speak because it is an edit.

COMMENTARY: Now the French, already certified as losers, add yet another black mark to their tranished record

How do YOU know he wasn't doping?

And yet, still not as tarnished as the USA's record at this time in history. Besides, how do YOU know he wasn't doping?

True, but if they couldn't test him back then, they sure couldn't have tested the #2 finisher.

And yet, still not as tarnished as the USA's record at this time in history. Besides, how do YOU know he wasn't doping?
Innocent until proven guilty. And besides, any scientist can be paid to say anything if the price is right.

I skimmed through the thread though because I've got to go somewhere.

I love all the people that are wishing for proof he was using performance enhancers.

COMMENTARY: Now the French, already certified as losers, add yet another black mark to their tranished record by accusing Lance Armstrong, a true American hero, of using dope to win the Tour de France. This has to be a new low, even for the French!


So you are flamebaiting now, Eutrusca?

Of course, we all know that American atheletes would NEVER use performance enhancing drugs...

And if they DID, they'd admit it straight away...

Seriously, though... the guy WAS a mediocre cyclist before his cancer, he was treated for the cancer, and he was a better cyclist after...

It isn't TOO much of a stretch to imagine that his cancer treatments COULD have had other effects.

So he used doping. Sure the French aren't making it, or are they?

I love all the people that are wishing for proof he was using performance enhancers.

I dont think anyones even said that yet have they?

So you are flamebaiting now, Eutrusca?

That's what I'd call it.

Of course, we all know that American atheletes would NEVER use performance enhancing drugs...

And if they DID, they'd admit it straight away...

Seriously, though... the guy WAS a mediocre cyclist before his cancer, he was treated for the cancer, and he was a better cyclist after...

It isn't TOO much of a stretch to imagine that his cancer treatments COULD have had other effects.
I've known a lot of people who are on cancer treatment and the only thing I see from them is that it makes them tired all the time.

Hmm...tired all the time = Tour de France victories BRILLIANT!!!!!!

So you are flamebaiting now, Eutrusca?

America can be cursed out, flamed to high-heaven, openly hated, and otherwise attacked but Eutrusca mentions the French in something less then a pleasing light and he gets accused of flamebaiting.

Personally I love irony, in my opinion it's better then sarcasm because it by nature rings ironically true but... damn man. Oh the irony! :cool:

So you are flamebaiting now, Eutrusca?
Nope. Just callin' em like ah sees em. :)

That's what I'd call it.
Hell, that's what you call every damned post I make! If you'd had your way, I would have been deleated long, long ago.

COMMENTARY: Now the French, already certified as losers, add yet another black mark to their tranished record by accusing Lance Armstrong, a true American hero, of using dope to win the Tour de France. This has to be a new low, even for the French!


I wonder where the USA would be today without the French!War of Independance!Lousiana!Etc!

America can be cursed out, flamed to high-heaven, openly hated, and otherwise attacked but Eutrusca mentions the French in something less then a pleasing light and he gets accused of flamebaiting.



Thats ok, America can take it. Wether its true or not.

Its the rest that cant take it and shriek even louder when its true.

America can be cursed out, flamed to high-heaven, openly hated, and otherwise attacked but Eutrusca mentions the French in something less then a pleasing light and he gets accused of flamebaiting.

Personally I love irony, in my opinion it's better then sarcasm because it by nature rings ironically true but... damn man. Oh the irony! :cool:
But surely you can't be accusing leftists of having a double standard! Oh noes!!!!11ELEVEN11!!!

Nope. Just callin' em like ah sees em. :)

And I call it flamebait!

Flamebait: Posts that are made with the aim of angering someone indirectly. Not outright flame, but still liable to bring angry replies. Flame baiting is a far more subtle and covert action; it is an underhanded tactic that is designed to provoke a response from another player. It's in the same context of trolling but with flamebaiting it's just the one person.

The One-Stop Rules Shop (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8784641&postcount=3)

America can be cursed out, flamed to high-heaven, openly hated, and otherwise attacked but Eutrusca mentions the French in something less then a pleasing light and he gets accused of flamebaiting.

Personally I love irony, in my opinion it's better then sarcasm because it by nature rings ironically true but... damn man. Oh the irony! :cool:
Call on them. Flamebaiting is flamebaiting. Just because you are on the recieving end doesn't let you do it in return.

And many american call for moderation when it goes too far. So you should expect that French will call when it goes too far. Level playing field and all.

I wonder where the USA would be today without the French!War of Independance!Lousiana!Etc!
Something similar to Canada. ;)

Hell, that's what you call every damned post I make! If you'd had your way, I would have been deleated long, long ago.

That's BS. When I as a mod I went out of my way to not even warn you. Save your BS for people who'll believe it.

I wonder where the USA would be today without the French!War of Independance!Lousiana!Etc!
Probably in the same place France would be if the USA hadn't yanked their chesnuts out of the fire in WWI and WWII ... limbo, or worse. :)

All professional cyclists use banned performance enhancing drugs, they have too. Just as they only deny it because they have too.

I know it has no bearing, but HOW MANY French people come to NS anyway?

That's BS. When I as a mod I went out of my way to not even warn you. Save your BS for people who'll believe it.
LOL! Ooooo! Hit a nerve, did I? Tsk! :D

Jeez, why do you people have to come up with premature judgements? How should any of us know whether he did or didn't dope? And why should "the French" not publish results when they have 'em? Because they have a long list of black marks? Get real.

Probably in the same place France would be if the USA hadn't yanked their chesnuts out of the fire in WWI and WWII ... limbo, or worse. :)

Right, I keep forgetting the USA fought WWI and II alone. :rolleyes:

That's BS. When I as a mod I went out of my way to not even warn you. Save your BS for people who'll believe it.

BS? So-when you were a mod, you didnt do what you were supposed to.

Now you're not a mod so you go out of your way to point out his flaming?

I get it! :rolleyes:

Hi Eu, I saw this on the news last night. Armstrong has subjected himself to an endless series of tests, and is probably the most tested professional athlete in history. You can't blame the French for being jealous and bitchy though.
The Tour de France is all they have left to pride themselves on, man!
And we took it from them, and beat them with it several years in a row. :D
Whatta bunch of sissy poor losers.

http://www.francesucks.com/france2.gif

The french sports rags have been trying to bring Armstrong down since day one...the frogs cant bear the thought, to this day, that they were rescued by the americans from the german in ww2..all this story is a bunch of innuendos...Armstrong is the living example of a man who fought against all odds and won...the french could never be anything other than churlish with this kind of person, specially because they´ve been beaten in their own turf forn six times on a row...

LOL! Ooooo! Hit a nerve, did I? Tsk! :DThat's pretty low. Even for you... :(

Right, I keep forgetting the USA fought WWI and II alone. :rolleyes:
Bit of a history lesson....USA greatly aided the Allies against the Axis in addition to keeping the Soviets in line from Western Europe.

And yet, still not as tarnished as the USA's record at this time in history. Besides, how do YOU know he wasn't doping?
Lance has been tested an inordinate amount of times for blood-doping substances during each of his past seven Tour runs. Guess what came back each time? Negative.

Eutrusca, this doesn't have anything to do with the French (except your illogical, undying hatred of them). Anyone that knows cycling knows that almost everybody else from every other country has at least expressed their concern over Lance's situation with drugs, not just the French.

Of course, the Americans who have jumped on the cycling bandwagon lately (including our own pal in the White House) would only bother with Frenchmen because this Armstrong character winning a French race has something to do with some larger allegory of why America is "teh pwn" and everyone else is "teh suk". No matter that a Frenchmen hasn't won the yellow jersey since Hinault won in 1985, and since then Spanish, Italian, Danish, German, and Irish have beat out the Americans (LeMond and Armstrong) about half the time since then. But most Americans wouldn't know that because, before Armstrong started winning, cycling was a Euro-trash activity barely worthy of the title "sport".

Bashing the French, how original and clever. Dur dur dur, we saved them in WWII, dur dur dur, they should be forever grateful to our nation, dur dur dur, none of our athletes would ever use drugs!

Probably in the same place France would be if the USA hadn't yanked their chesnuts out of the fire in WWI and WWII ... limbo, or worse. :)

yep.you give a little,you get a little. :)

Bit of a history lesson....USA greatly aided the Allies against the Axis in addition to keeping the Soviets in line from Western Europe.

Like I need a history lesson, thanks! :rolleyes:

I think I know a little on the subject. Thanks for showing up 2 years late though..well at least you showed up finally! But of course only after Hitler had declared war on you.

And please don't knock the Soviets, they did more to win WWII than any other one single country.

Bit of a history lesson....USA greatly aided the Allies against the Axis in addition to keeping the Soviets in line from Western Europe.

Further history, they had little to no effect on WW1.

WW2 they have a legitemate claim to combat effect but the Soviets could have done it all in the end, not to mention it was the Brits doing it all in Africa/Italy....

BTW I know people who preferred it under the Soviets or considered it about as bad as the 'free market' they have today, maybe if they got the whole of Germany Stalin would have kept to his isolationist ideas and the Cold War never have happened because the US wasn't out there crusading.

Just a thought.

Funny how it goes, isn't it?

-EPO has been used in doping since 1998.

-In 1999 Lance gives a standard urine sample to the French while riding the Tour, which is tested with the up-to-date-1999 standards, considered okay, and then frozen.

-In 2001 one leading doping laboratory develops a test which can show the use of EPO. It becomes the world-wide standard test.

-Sometime prior to now (2003-2005), that said frozen sample is re-tested with the up-to-date-2003/2005 standards - and :eek: OMG - Lance is a cheater!

-What you should be complaining about is the distinct seperation and public mentioning of Lance as the only one who has been tested positive in 6 samples from that given Tour.

-Others, whose samples have also been positively re-tested, remain unknown.

That is what you oughta complain about - not that a possible cheater has been identified. I wonder how your reaction would have been if indeed a major U.S. newspaper had made that discovery...

And blaming a whole nation for what only several journalists accomplished - isn't that exactly what you critisize when only several people voice an opinion about, mmh, let's say the U.S. in general? (But I actually anticipated s.th. like this thread from Eutrusca)

Lance has been tested an inordinate amount of times for blood-doping substances during each of his past seven Tour runs. Guess what came back each time? Negative.Got any idea what exactly he's being charged with? EPO doesn't show easy...

This doesn't mean he did it. It doesn't mean he did. Reminds me of another case of premature judgement (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/entertainment/2005/michael_jackson_on_trial/default.stm). What side were you on?

-Sometime prior to now (2003-2005), that said frozen sample is re-tested with the up-to-date-2003/2005 standards - and :eek: OMG - Lance is a cheater!

Well, the world is waiting to see what #2, and #3 tests on those same races.

Funny, that no one would want to find out. OMG they were all cheaters!!!

And please don't knock the Soviets, they did more to win WWII than any other one single country.

Россия больш! этот алфавит самые лучшие!
Вы не можете понять я говорю!
ahhhhhhhh hahahahahahaha :p

snip *Applauds*

Ok, well I'm out of this thread. I see it as nothing more than flamebait.

Have fun!

I've known a lot of people who are on cancer treatment and the only thing I see from them is that it makes them tired all the time.

Hmm...tired all the time = Tour de France victories BRILLIANT!!!!!!

Yeah... that's actually kind of the point... well done for missing it completely.

I have known cancer patients, too... and most of them feel pretty bad after their treatment...

In fact, it's amazing how many of them DON'T become world-class leading cyclists...

It's also funny that the paper itself admitted that the science was somewhat less-than-reliable. :rolleyes:

Like I need a history lesson, thanks! :rolleyes:
God knows, you need something.

Yeah... that's actually kind of the point... well done for missing it completely.

I have known cancer patients, too... and most of them feel pretty bad after their treatment...

In fact, it's amazing how many of them DON'T become world-class leading cyclists...

No you missed my point. It wasn't the cancer treatment. It was the fact they he races for the best team in the world, and he trains better than anyone in the world for that particular race. Well done, LANCE. You become an inspiration to all cancer victims and the world hates you. CURSE YOU PEOPLE AND YOU HATRED OF CANCER PATIENTS.

This is dumb. You are taking the actions of one newspaper and wraping the whole country to it. Grow up and see the world and not just the small crap. I know many French poeple who like the US and many American's like France.

All this flaming is nothing more than... :headbang:

God knows, you need something.

More flamebait.. it just never ends with you does it?

Anyway, like I said.. it's not going to work on me.. I'm out of here.

No you missed my point. It wasn't the cancer treatment. It was the fact they he races for the best team in the world, and he trains better than anyone in the world for that particular race. Well done, LANCE. You become an inspiration to all cancer victims and the world hates you. CURSE YOU PEOPLE AND YOU HATRED OF CANCER PATIENTS.

Where is the hatred of cancer patients? :confused:

... this Armstrong character winning a French race has something to do with some larger allegory of why America is "teh pwn" and everyone else is "teh suk".
ROFLMAO! Kewl! :D

They accused him of nothing. They tested some preserved urine samples for a drug that was around when the samples were obtained. At the time there was not yet a way to test for it. They tested his urine, found drugs, and reported their findings. And it wasn't "the French" who are somehow against Armstrong; it's a French company.

Someone please tell me how this is flamebait:

God knows, you need something.


WTF, over? I can't say a damned thing without it being somehow labeled "flamebait?" Well, so be it. Delete my ass! Have me hung from the nearest friggin' lampost! Pour naptha down my throat, light my friggin' ass and send me straight to hell! I no longer give a rat's ass! Jeeze.

Someone please tell me how this is flamebait:




WTF, over? I can't say a damned thing without it being somehow labeled "flamebait?" Well, so be it. Delete my ass! Have me hung from the nearest friggin' lampost! Pour naptha down my throat, light my friggin' ass and send me straight to hell! I no longer give a rat's ass! Jeeze.
Duh, can't you see ;)

Someone please tell me how this is flamebait:




WTF, over? I can't say a damned thing without it being somehow labeled "flamebait?" Well, so be it. Delete my ass! Have me hung from the nearest friggin' lampost! Pour naptha down my throat, light my friggin' ass and send me straight to hell! I no longer give a rat's ass! Jeeze.

Given your pathological hate for France, Liberals, pacifists in general and Jane Fonda specifically it's hard to avoid thinking you are flaming when you start threads on them that are so obviously derogatory.

Just a hint, try to reduce the bias quotient a bit. Not hard really is it?

And yes, I know lefties are just as biased but generally your mob will start calling them on it much as I and Stephistan are now so it balances in the end.

Jeez, why do you people have to come up with premature judgements? How should any of us know whether he did or didn't dope? And why should "the French" not publish results when they have 'em? Because they have a long list of black marks? Get real.

My only question is why are they testing his 99 piss in the first place? Why now? Why on Earth did they keep his piss for 6 years? Do they have a store room full of athelete's piss from every professional athelete to ever compete in France? What an odd library THAT must be.

Someone please tell me how this is flamebait:




WTF, over? I can't say a damned thing without it being somehow labeled "flamebait?" Well, so be it. Delete my ass! Have me hung from the nearest friggin' lampost! Pour naptha down my throat, light my friggin' ass and send me straight to hell! I no longer give a rat's ass! Jeeze.

Its hardly a complimentary comment now is it?

My only question is why are they testing his 99 piss in the first place? Why now? Why on Earth did they keep his piss for 6 years? Do they have a store room full of athelete's piss from every professional athelete to ever compete in France? What an odd library THAT must be.

Definately, that seems weird to me also. And how can we be sure that a sample of EPO didn't happen to fall into his sample. Honestly, how many samples can be between A and E. (JOKE ALERT, for the dense ones)

One more sidenote. If he cheated in 1999 and no other year, how do you explain his other victories? Did he just magically fly up those mountains the other years??

No you missed my point. It wasn't the cancer treatment. It was the fact they he races for the best team in the world, and he trains better than anyone in the world for that particular race. Well done, LANCE. You become an inspiration to all cancer victims and the world hates you. CURSE YOU PEOPLE AND YOU HATRED OF CANCER PATIENTS.

I don't 'miss your point'... I just think it valueless. Don't think because I understand, I care.

Who exactly are you 'cursing' with your accusations of hating cancer patients? I lost someone very close to cancer, just this year... and you are treading a fine line, my friend.

The point is - he was mediocre before the cancer and the treatment.

He was treated - OSTENSIBLY for cancer... I very much doubt you have his medical transcripts, so we DON'T KNOW what medications he actually received.

We DO know tht most cancer patients come out of treatment much weaker than they went in, even if they recover well.

When HE left treatment, he was a better cyclist. He was stronger and faster... which are NOT common sideeffects of MOST cancer treatments.

Try being a little objective, rather than throwing around your hatred... you notice that I have yet to 'curse' anyone...

Probably in the same place France would be if the USA hadn't yanked their chesnuts out of the fire in WWI and WWII ... limbo, or worse. :)

Not neccessarily true. Had America remained a British colony, a likely result without French assistance during the first civil war, Britain would probably have been able to levy soldiers and conscripts during the first world war, aiding their part of the fighting with greater numbers of troops, perhaps ending the war sooner on their end. And with a greater manufacturing base/wartime capacity available to them when the 2nd World War broke out, the British might not have been forced to retreat at all. Or if they were, they would have been able to return again sooner to the front.

America, the landmass, and her inhabitants wouldn't have gone *poof* whether the country became independent or not. They'd still be there. The only difference would be who called the shots. Imagine if Britain was directly ruling America at the time of the 2nd World War. While the lendlease was in effect, it wasn't until much later during the bombing of Pearl Harbor did America as a nation actually go to war. Britain was fighting several years prior to that.

It would be foolish to the extreme to believe that Britain would not use the greatest manufacturing base of the time to sustain their own war effort if the motherland was under threat of invasion.

And all this assumes that the events that led to the 2nd World War still were to happen in the same way had France withheld their aid over 150 years prior. A lot of things can happen in that time period with just a little nudge.


Delete my ass! Have me hung from the nearest friggin' lampost! Pour naptha down my throat, light my friggin' ass and send me straight to hell! I no longer give a rat's ass! Jeeze.

I've always wondered what a senior citizen missing his posterior being hung from a lampost while breathing fire on a bus to some underground magma pit would look like. =p

My only question is why are they testing his 99 piss in the first place? Why now? Why on Earth did they keep his piss for 6 years? Do they have a store room full of athelete's piss from every professional athelete to ever compete in France? What an odd library THAT must be.

There were drugs you couldn't spot in 99. Technology meant that sooner or later they would be detectable. If you are paranoid about it it makes perfect sense to keep some for future testing with better techniques.

I know it has no bearing, but HOW MANY French people come to NS anyway?So it's ok to bash a country as long as no one from said country is likely to be around?
fyi, I'm French.
fyi, the French public really admire and respect Lance Armstrong. They'd like a Frenchman to win again, but they have nothing against Lance Armstrong.

Someone please tell me how this is flamebait:




WTF, over? I can't say a damned thing without it being somehow labeled "flamebait?" Well, so be it. Delete my ass! Have me hung from the nearest friggin' lampost! Pour naptha down my throat, light my friggin' ass and send me straight to hell! I no longer give a rat's ass! Jeeze.

It was an unnecessary comment aimed to provoke. That's why it was flamebait.

My only question is why are they testing his 99 piss in the first place? Why now? Why on Earth did they keep his piss for 6 years? Do they have a store room full of athelete's piss from every professional athelete to ever compete in France? What an odd library THAT must be.The war on doping is a war where controls are always one step behind the dopers. EPO is very difficult to trace, even today. Imagine how hard it was to trace then. They saved it in case better tests come along someday, which isn't surprising. Other forms of blood-doping are also nearly impossible to prove.
You'd be surprised if you knew just how doped up the sports world is...

So it's ok to bash a country as long as no one from said country is likely to be around?
fyi, I'm French.
fyi, the French public really admire and respect Lance Armstrong. They'd like a Frenchman to win again, but they have nothing against Lance Armstrong.

Read the post you were quoting where it says "I know this has no bearing ...."

Ashamed that an American won several times in a row, they are?

EDIT: Yoda speak because it is an edit.


Hmm like Yoda speak I do. Astonished are they that an American even knows location of France. Also tabloid it was, which reported dope addicted was American. Not too seriously can they be taken.

I've always wondered what a senior citizen missing his posterior being hung from a lampost while breathing fire on a bus to some underground magma pit would look like. =p
Terrifying. Absolutely terrifying! :D

-snip-
Well said. Aside from all that, France paid the US for their aid in WWII. They are still paying. The Americans were hired guns. Most Frenchmen are grateful, but they owe the Americans nothing.

Definately, that seems weird to me also. And how can we be sure that a sample of EPO didn't happen to fall into his sample. Honestly, how many samples can be between A and E. (JOKE ALERT, for the dense ones)

One more sidenote. If he cheated in 1999 and no other year, how do you explain his other victories? Did he just magically fly up those mountains the other years??See? It's good that people actually ask questions. But why does everyone have to come up with premature judgements? If none of the people that tested his urine know for sure that he doped, then how are we capable of judging whether or not he doped?
Truth isn't what you want it to be, damnit. Wait until any final results are in.

Well said. Aside from all that, France paid the US for their aid in WWII. They are still paying. The Americans were hired guns. Most Frenchmen are grateful, but they owe the Americans nothing.

And France paid/is paying much of its debt by leaching money out of the debt they placed on Germany for causing WII.

This is dumb. You are taking the actions of one newspaper and wraping the whole country to it. Grow up and see the world and not just the small crap. I know many French poeple who like the US and many American's like France.

All this flaming is nothing more than... :headbang:

Actually, the french are sore losers, im british and, just after we got the 2012 olmpics, what was in the french newspapers?

LONDON CHEATED!!!!!!! LONDON CHEATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bloody frogs...... no, this isnt one case of the french being sore losers, it allways happens.

(british rebate to name another, a HUGE fuss over 3 billion £ of our OWN money)

And France paid/is paying much of its debt by leaching money out of the debt they placed on Germany for causing WII.
After WWII, Germany was supposed to pay 20 billion dollars in machines and movable goods, mainly to the Soviet Union. Most reparations stopped in 1953. Most countries never received any reparations from Germany i.e. Poland was forced to accept end of reparations in 1953. In the end, war victims in many countries were compensated via confiscation of the property of Germans expelled after World War II.

COMMENTARY: Now the French, already certified as losers, add yet another black mark to their tranished record by accusing Lance Armstrong, a true American hero, of using dope to win the Tour de France. This has to be a new low, even for the French!

Yes, because it is The French doing this, that is to say, the entire populace of France.

I do wish people'd stop doing this. What if I said "Oh, look what the Americans are doing again! They're invading another country! This is a new low, even for the Americans!" I'd get all sorts about how it was the decision of a few, that not everyone supported it, that the country was a democracy, and not to generalise. Yet here we get this "Wow, aren't all French people shit?" shit. I'm fucking sick of it.

It is not fair to judge a country on the basis of some journalists. I, for one, am vehemently opposed to Jordan getting her tits out on Page 3.

(Note: This is not directed specifically at Americans, but it's the easiest population to use here as it's by far the largest. If the boards had a large French population no doubt they'd defend themselves likewise.)

Yes, because it is The French doing this, that is to say, the entire populace of France.

I do wish people'd stop doing this. What if I said "Oh, look what the Americans are doing again! They're invading another country! This is a new low, even for the Americans!" I'd get all sorts about how it was the decision of a few, that not everyone supported it, that the country was a democracy, and not to generalise. Yet here we get this "Wow, aren't all French people shit?" shit. I'm fucking sick of it.


Yeah it's tiring. I'm sure certain people would hate it if everyone took the actions of, say, I dunno, anti-war protestors and pointed that out as something "America is doing."

'Ha ha, America is lying down in traffic again!'

'America spits on soldiers, again!'

But it's so easy to assume "we" have diversity and other places, "them," are blocks of hive-minded automatons.

After WWII, Germany was supposed to pay 20 billion dollars in machines and movable goods, mainly to the Soviet Union. Most reparations stopped in 1953. Most countries never received any reparations from Germany i.e. Poland was forced to accept end of reparations in 1953. In the end, war victims in many countries were compensated via confiscation of the property of Germans expelled after World War II.Not quite right. Germany is still paying forced laborers today, and we've been paying money to Israel and Jewish victims for quite some time too. We only resolved with representatives of the victims that there will be no further claims a couple years ago.
(and the Russians TOOK what they wanted from the East Germans, completely dismantling most of the industry there. The decision on reparations was, you take what you want from your sector. The French came closest to the Russians, while the Americans and British didn't)

COMMENTARY: Now the French, already certified as losers, add yet another black mark to their tranished record
The irony is actually painful.

Looky the entire French population sunk to a new low because a few french guys think Armstrong might have taken dope to win the Tour De France. Big whoopity doo. I have a lot of respect for what Armstrong overcame, but is it entirely impossible that he might have taken performance enhancing dugs? Personally I don't think he did but thats just an opinion as I am not omniscient.

So what Eut? Someones jealous of an American winnign 7 times in a row - is that a reason to bash all French people? You were also very rude to Steph. You are a mean person to so many people on here. I am surprised that you are still around and wonder if it's only to annoy people based on many of the posts you make. I don't want to see you leave, I just want you to to show the maturity you say comes with having lived in the days when civility was an a trait you could find in most people.

Not quite right. Germany is still paying forced laborers today, and we've been paying money to Israel and Jewish victims for quite some time too. We only resolved with representatives of the victims that there will be no further claims a couple years ago.
(and the Russians TOOK what they wanted from the East Germans, completely dismantling most of the industry there. The decision on reparations was, you take what you want from your sector. The French came closest to the Russians, while the Americans and British didn't)

Thank you for clarifying to all those history class did not go past the end of WWII. Sometimes its funny hearing people talk, umm...type.

Not quite right. Germany is still paying forced laborers today

Really? I wonder if my Granddad is eligible. He never got a cent.

Probably in the same place France would be if the USA hadn't yanked their chesnuts out of the fire in WWI and WWII ... limbo, or worse. :)
Hmm, maybe the nations of the world need each other. Just an innocent guess.

The point is - he was mediocre before the cancer and the treatment.

He was treated - OSTENSIBLY for cancer... I very much doubt you have his medical transcripts, so we DON'T KNOW what medications he actually received.

We DO know tht most cancer patients come out of treatment much weaker than they went in, even if they recover well.

When HE left treatment, he was a better cyclist. He was stronger and faster... which are NOT common sideeffects of MOST cancer treatments.

Try being a little objective, rather than throwing around your hatred... you notice that I have yet to 'curse' anyone...

Objectivity would lead you to the fact that he trained like a madman during and after his treatment.

Objectivity would lead you to the fact that he trained almost exclusively for that race while most other cyclists train for a myriad of races.

Objectivity would point you toward the physical characteristics Lance has that lend well to cylcing - most notably longer than average leg bones and a larger than average heart structure. He pumps more blood, and pumps the pedals more efficiently than most other competitors.

The jury is out on the doping, but it seems clear to this objective observer that it's still possible that he legitimately won the Tour seven straight times.

Really? I wonder if my Granddad is eligible. He never got a cent.


Dude, I know it's been a while but I'm sure he could claim more than a cent.

The Tour de France is all they have left to pride themselves on, man!

That's bullshit. The French took two of the best things in life, food and sex, and perfected them. I'd be proud of that! :p

So, what about it? Are you concerned that Armstrong being a cheater will affect his political aspiartions, or what????

That's bullshit. The French took two of the best things in life, food and sex, and perfected them. I'd be proud of that! :p
Never thought of that... :p

Vive la France!

Ashamed that an American won several times in a row, they are?

EDIT: Yoda speak because it is an edit.

Well said master.

Please, they are just upset and are poor losers. But, what do you expect from the French.

And who is to say that the samples weren't tampered with.

"France has Billion Dollar satilites in space right now looking for new countries to surender too."

The war on doping is a war where controls are always one step behind the dopers. EPO is very difficult to trace, even today. Imagine how hard it was to trace then. They saved it in case better tests come along someday, which isn't surprising. Other forms of blood-doping are also nearly impossible to prove.
You'd be surprised if you knew just how doped up the sports world is...

no not surprised really. I've no doubt about that. My only surprise comes from the idea that there's actually a library of athlete piss that dates at least as far back as '99. And that every time a new improved test comes out, they start all over and retest all of it. What a career THAT must be. And at what cost?

Really? I wonder if my Granddad is eligible. He never got a cent.He's not elligible anymore, if that's what you mean. You'd have to go complain to the Victim's Representatives. They're the ones responsible for that now.
(Guilty as we Germans are, I'm third-generation German and my grand-dad was 9 when the war ended. Paying has to stop some time)

no not surprised really. I've no doubt about that. My only surprise comes from the idea that there's actually a library of athlete piss that dates at least as far back as '99. And that every time a new improved test comes out, they start all over and retest all of it. What a career THAT must be. And at what cost?It's the same principle as with the Olympics. Anyone that wins a medal gets tested again. Trust me, it really sucks to fight doping in world sports. It's a battle in which you're always two to three steps behind... :(

Objectivity would lead you to the fact that he trained like a madman during and after his treatment.


Which is curious... becuase most of the people I have known with cancer, could not have done much in the way of endurance race training while they were being treated...

This also kind of implies that NO OTHER cyclists trained...


Objectivity would lead you to the fact that he trained almost exclusively for that race while most other cyclists train for a myriad of races.


No, not true. Many cyclists train for different events. Many cyclists train JUST for the Tour.


Objectivity would point you toward the physical characteristics Lance has that lend well to cylcing - most notably longer than average leg bones and a larger than average heart structure. He pumps more blood, and pumps the pedals more efficiently than most other competitors.


And, all of these biological characteristics SHOULD be true of the Lance, pre-treatment, yes?

And yet, before treatment = mediocre. After treatment = world class.


The jury is out on the doping, but it seems clear to this objective observer that it's still possible that he legitimately won the Tour seven straight times.

And perhaps he did, I am willing to believe it. However, the peculiar transformation from average to ace, DURING a time of sickness (and medication) seems a little odd. Possibly, a cause for questioning?

One should bear in mind, incidentally, that baseball protested it's collective innocence, and proclaimed that it had superlative (but not enhanced) atheletes. Honesty and purity do not seem to be hot commodities in the sports market, at the moment.

Well said master.

Please, they are just upset and are poor losers. But, what do you expect from the French.

And who is to say that the samples weren't tampered with.

"France has Billion Dollar satilites in space right now looking for new countries to surender too."
Please, cut it out with the flamebaiting.

Well said. Aside from all that, France paid the US for their aid in WWII. They are still paying. The Americans were hired guns. Most Frenchmen are grateful, but they owe the Americans nothing.

I don't believe this is correct. I believe all debts from WWII were forgiven. I don't think France is still paying them.

That aside, I'm glad to hear there is gratitude involved. I've never heard anyone say that before. I'm being sincere, this isn't sarcastic.

Really? I wonder if my Granddad is eligible. He never got a cent.

Back to Armstrong folx,
from My Way (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050824/D8C67VL80.html)

"Separately, the lab said it could not confirm that the positive results were Armstrong's. It noted that the samples were anonymous, bearing only a six-digit number to identify the rider, and could not be matched with the name of any one cyclist."

However, the tabloid that claims they prove one of the anonymous samples was Armstrong's by a copy of a document:

"On one side of a page Tuesday, it showed what it claimed were the results of EPO tests from anonymous riders used for lab research. On the other, it showed Armstrong's medical certificates, signed by doctors and riders after doping tests - and bearing the same identifying number printed on the results."

From what i gathered, this newspaper is about as reliable as The Enquirer is in the US, or World News Daily. So who's to know? We'll find out eventually, but if they released 1 of the 15 names retested from '99 samples, why don't they release the other 14?

Dude, I know it's been a while but I'm sure he could claim more than a cent.

Well, if it was one cent back then, he's got 60 years of inflation on top of that! How about that? Uh...lessee...about 20 cents?

He's not elligible anymore, if that's what you mean. You'd have to go complain to the Victim's Representatives. They're the ones responsible for that now.
(Guilty as we Germans are, I'm third-generation German and my grand-dad was 9 when the war ended. Paying has to stop some time)

Well, yeah. He wouldn't be interested anyway. He's set himself up here.

Besides, the Soviets are almost as much to blame. They wouldn't let him back into his country (Lithuania) after the war was over.

Never thought of that... :p

Vive la France!

35 hour working week! Vive la France!!!

Well, if it was one cent back then, he's got 60 years of inflation on top of that! How about that? Uh...lessee...about 20 cents?


If he really needs money I can lend him a few quid.

From what i gathered, this newspaper is about as reliable as The Enquirer is in the US, or World News Daily. So who's to know? We'll find out eventually, but if they released 1 of the 15 names retested from '99 samples, why don't they release the other 14?
L'équipe is hailed as a good newspaper about sport in France. It is far more reliable then the Enquire. :rolleyes:

A little history note: When Armstrong won the Tourin '99, allegations of doping abounded in most european papers. Not in l'équipe.

Your objections are justified about the leak. Someone working in that lab did break the rules and possibly the law.

L'équipe is hailed as a good newspaper about sport in France. It is far more reliable then the Enquire. :rolleyes:

A little history note: When Armstrong won the Tourin '99, allegations of doping abounded in most european papers. Not in l'équipe.

Your objections are justified about the leak. Someone working in that lab did break the rules and possibly the law.

ah, thanks for the correction. i had read in a cpl other articles about this that the newspaper doesn't seem to be one well trusted.

"France has Billion Dollar satilites in space right now looking for new countries to surender too."

Not to contradict my previous post in this thread, but: AAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!1one :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Given the fact that Rafael Palmeiro was caught with steroids after wagging his finger in righteous (or so we thought) indignation, I'd like to believe Lance, but who knows?

Well said master.

Please, they are just upset and are poor losers. But, what do you expect from the French.

And who is to say that the samples weren't tampered with.

"France has Billion Dollar satilites in space right now looking for new countries to surender too."

Glad to know we have objective, un-biased people to tell us how it is.

That's BS. When I as a mod I went out of my way to not even warn you. Save your BS for people who'll believe it.



Oh, puh-lease, save your lies for a forum where people will actually believe them. Everytime I'm in the Moderation forum, if there is a complaint about Eutresca, Steph will be there calling for punishment. :rolleyes:

Oh, puh-lease, save your lies for a forum where people will actually believe them. Everytime I'm in the Moderation forum, if there is a complaint about Eutresca, Steph will be there calling for punishment. :rolleyes:We left that topic behind a while ago...

If he really needs money I can lend him a few quid.

Nah, i'll convince him to let the interest add up. Just think, some distant family member of mine will claim it in several hundred years. :p

Oh, puh-lease, save your lies for a forum where people will actually believe them. Everytime I'm in the Moderation forum, if there is a complaint about Eutresca, Steph will be there calling for punishment. :rolleyes:
Thank you. :fluffle:

Well said. Aside from all that, France paid the US for their aid in WWII. They are still paying. The Americans were hired guns. Most Frenchmen are grateful, but they owe the Americans nothing.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_plan

Nah, i'll convince him to let the interest add up. Just think, some distant family member of mine will claim it in several hundred years. :p

Several thousand years.

*Recalls an episode of Futurama*

Several thousand years.

*Recalls an episode of Futurama*

That's where I got the idea. I just watched that episode. :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_planThanks for pointing out that it's the Marshal Plan and not the war effort that the French are paying for. Thanks Neo. :)

Oh, puh-lease, save your lies for a forum where people will actually believe them. Everytime I'm in the Moderation forum, if there is a complaint about Eutresca, Steph will be there calling for punishment. :rolleyes:

I'm trying really hard to ignore Eutrusca's flamebait, now you've gotten into it. Let me be REAL CLEAR here, you were not around when I was a mod. If I really had wanted Eutrusca gone, he would of been! When I was a mod he had his moments, but I tried to give him a lot of rope, as I did with every player! Since I retired as a mod Eutrusca has become far worse than he was back then. Yes, there have been threads in mod where I felt he clearly had crossed the line and said something, but not all, that is simply not true and a gross exaggeration.

So, in the future please try to keep your comments to what you actually know about and not get involved in something that went on well before you ever became a troll yourself on these forums. Thank You!

COMMENTARY: Now the French, already certified as losers, add yet another black mark to their tranished record by accusing Lance Armstrong, a true American hero, of using dope to win the Tour de France. This has to be a new low, even for the French!


Armstrong Is Accused of Doping (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/24/sports/othersports/24cycling.html?th&emc=th)


By SAMUEL ABT
Published: August 24, 2005

PARIS, Aug. 23 - The French sports newspaper L'Équipe reported Tuesday that Lance Armstrong used an illegal performance-enhancing drug in 1999 to win his first of seven consecutive Tours de France.

"Lance Armstrong has used EPO," the banned erythropoietin, to increase the red blood corpuscles that carry oxygen to muscles, the newspaper stated in a four-page report that began with a front-page headline, "The Armstrong Lie."

The 33-year-old Armstrong, who retired July 24 after his latest Tour victory, strongly denied the charge. "Unfortunately, the witch hunt continues," he said on his Web site, adding that the "article was nothing short of tabloid journalism."

He added, "I will simply restate what I have said many times: I have never taken performance-enhancing drugs."

Jean-Marie Leblanc, the director of the Tour, called the newspaper's report "very complete, very professional, very meticulous." He said on RTL radio that the charge appeared credible. Leblanc added that disciplinary action was unlikely because the tests were based on only the second, or B, urine samples. The A sample was tested in 1999 but was not frozen.

No tests for EPO were available in 1999.

Armstrong has been under suspicion and investigated a handful of times since his comeback in 1999 from testicular cancer, but has never been found guilty of doping.

The tests were done at the Chatenay-Malabry laboratory outside Paris last year to help scientists refine EPO detection methods, the paper said.

The lab confirmed that it had conducted the tests, but said it could not confirm that the samples were Armstrong's because the labels were identified only by six-digit numbers.

L'Équipe said it had decoded the labels by matching each sample with forms filed with the French Cycling Federation during the Tour. Those forms, filled out each time a sample was taken in a drug test, identified the donor by name as well as the six digits on his urine sample.

L'Équipe reproduced what it said were the results of the laboratory's tests, with sample number, and the forms with the same number and Armstrong's name. L'Équipe, which said it had conducted "a long, painstaking and rigorous investigation," reproduced what it said were EPO tests on frozen urine samples taken from riders during the 1999 Tour.

Doctors commonly store blood, urine and other samples so they can do tests that may become necessary or available years after the samples were taken. They usually compare those tests with control samples to make sure that freezing or other storage techniques do not distort the findings.

In a drug test, for example, they may compare a suspect sample of stored blood with one that contains no drugs. Six samples that the paper said were taken from Armstrong proved positive for the "indisputable" use of EPO, the paper said. It added that six other samples from riders who were not identified had also proved positive. "It cannot be regarded as a positive test in the strict regulatory sense," the newspaper said, doubting that French sanctions could result.

L'Équipe said the World Anti-Doping Agency or the United States Anti-Doping Agency could act, but that appeared unlikely even if the charges were further substantiated. The French sports minister, Jean-François Lamour, told The Associated Press that because the A sample was discarded after the initial 1999 testing, the B sample would not be enough to pursue charges and punishment.

The sample also predates the formation of the World Anti-Doping Agency, which was formed in 2000 to administer Olympic drug testing worldwide, and the United States Anti-Doping Agency, also started in 2000.

"If anything were found, we couldn't do anything because we didn't even exist in 1999," said the world agency's chairman, Richard Pound. Still, Pound encouraged the international and United States cycling federations to look into the allegations, saying, "It's important that the truth must always be made clear."

Clarity, though, may be elusive. There was no worldwide standard on freezing samples until 2004, when the world agency's code was adopted by most countries to govern such matters. And the reliability of the urine test for EPO, first used in 2000, has been a source of concern.

As he continued to win the Tour de France, Armstrong was occasionally the target of doping suspicions in L'Équipe, which is owned by the same company that owns the Tour de France, Amaury Sports.

Miguel Indurain of Spain, who won the Tour five times in the 1990's, was quoted as saying on the Web site todociclismo.com Tuesday, "They have been out to get him in France for a number of years."

Armstrong is suing The Sunday Times of London for reprinting doping charges made in a book, "L.A. Confidential, the Secrets of Lance Armstrong," in 2004.

In the month since his retirement, Armstrong has spent time with his three children and his companion, the singer Sheryl Crow, and he has worked for his cancer foundation. On Saturday, he visited President Bush's ranch, where they rode mountain bikes. Armstrong pressed him for more research funds to fight cancer.

Lynn Zinser and Lawrence K. Altman contributed reporting for this article.
Even through I also doubt that Armstrong used performance enhancing drugs, I believe that the style of your post is utterly unacceptable. As a non-french I can't see what the "tranished record" of the french is. I personally hold then in equally high regards as the american people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_planDid you read the article? The Americans were so "generous" for purely economical reasons. The American economy benifited by giving Europe tax-payers' money that was spent to support American industry.

I'm trying really hard to ignore Eutrusca's flamebait, now you've gotten into it. Let me be REAL CLEAR here, you were not around when I was a mod. If I really had wanted Eutrusca gone, he would of been! When I was a mod he had his moments, but I tried to give him a lot of rope, as I did with every player! Since I retired as a mod Eutrusca has become far worse than he was back then. Yes, there have been threads in mod where I felt he clearly had crossed the line and said something, but not all, that is simply not true and a gross exaggeration.

So, in the future please try to keep your comments to what you actually know about and not get involved in something that went on well before you ever became a troll yourself on these forums. Thank You!



Did you just call me a troll? I can see why your title says ex-moderator.

Did you just call me a troll? I can see why your title says ex-moderator.Yeah, I can too: "...I retired..."

Did you read the article? The Americans were so "generous" for purely economical reasons. The American economy benifited by giving Europe tax-payers' money that was spent to support American industry.



So, you're going to disregard the ~$13,000,000,000 in aid we gave, just because some Europeans might have spent it on some American products? Am I then to assume that, if we give some African nation gargantuan sums of money in the form of aid, if some of them happen to visit one of our malls, then the donation was purely for "our economic benefit?"

iLock pending Moderator review.

Stephistan and Eutrusca: The bickering between the two of you will stop.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."