NationStates Jolt Archive

Got your attention, didn't it. How did that title make you feel? Livid? Frightened? Jubilant? Hopefully, not the last one. But I did want to make a point.
Pat Robertson was probably going for maximum shock value. I think that it worked. You see, no one knows about Venezuela's president in the West. At the very most, they see him as another one of the thousands of leaders in the bannana republic (they changed often for a while).
Pat Robertson brought up someone that most Westerners had no idea even existed. Yet he has stirred up a debate. Who is Hugo Chavez? Is he a liberator or a destroyer? Visionary or a crook? Oil oligarch or economical savior?
I'll leave those questions up to you. You know my opinions, however. And I think Chavez realizes this, and fears any international backlash. You see, he announced that he'd sell gas at a discount to Americans who can't afford it. This was announced after he reacted to Pat Robertson's comments. I don't know how he'll do it, but perhaps he can distribute this cheap gas through his gas company, Citgo. Anyhow, I think he wants allies in America, and I'm not fond of it.

Got your attention, didn't it. How did that title make you feel? Livid? Frightened? Jubilant? Hopefully, not the last one. But I did want to make a point.
Pat Robertson was probably going for maximum shock value. I think that it worked. You see, no one knows about Venezuela's president in the West. At the very most, they see him as another one of the thousands of leaders in the bannana republic (they changed often for a while).
Pat Robertson brought up someone that most Westerners had no idea even existed. Yet he has stirred up a debate. Who is Hugo Chavez? Is he a liberator or a destroyer? Visionary or a crook? Oil oligarch or economical savior?
I'll leave those questions up to you. You know my opinions, however. And I think Chavez realizes this, and fears any international backlash. You see, he announced that he'd sell gas at a discount to Americans who can't afford it. This was announced after he reacted to Pat Robertson's comments. I don't know how he'll do it, but perhaps he can distribute this cheap gas through his gas company, Citgo. Anyhow, I think he wants allies in America, and I'm not fond of it.


While Pat Robertson may be an insane fundamentalist psychopath, he is a brilliant PR person. Then again, so is eminem, so was Hitler.

I dont think Pat Robertson is truly aware of where he is.

Very, very apathetic. I put no stock into extremists.

Hell I don't put stock into much. :D

While Pat Robertson may be an insane fundamentalist psychopath, he is a brilliant PR person. Then again, so is eminem, so was Hitler.
I know. All the eloquent guys turned out to be pricks. I think this is true of both Roberttson and Chavez.

I dont think Pat Robertson is truly aware of where he is.
No. I think his language would be better appreciate if he moved to Saudi Arabia.

I know. All the eloquent guys turned out to be pricks. I think this is true of both Roberttson and Chavez.

I dunno, I get the feeling that Shakespear was an all right guy and Ben Franklin definitely was a good fellow to have around.

Anyhow, this will probably turn into for and against Chavez thread in a while. Better be prepared.
In 1998, Chavez was elected to power. He drafted a new constitution, which passed by a large majority. Yet it is the same type of constitution that gurantees autocracy. It made the judiciary dependent on the other branches of the government, invested far more power into the president, and the legislature became unicameral, eliminating any safeguards in the branch. The last one wasn't needed, for 90% of the legislators are from Chavez's party. He has also loosened civilian control of the military, and has started to take a wary eye toward media, routinely accusing them of "meddling in internal affairs" (the job of the media anywhere). This is exactly what happened in Yeltsin Russia, which begot Vladimir Putin.
His leftist policies may or may not be sincere, but no one can deny that he has a fervently loyal base with the poor, and alienating Venezuela's struggling middle class. His TV show is just his way of making him into a cult figure. After all, his show is six hours long.

I dunno, I get the feeling that Shakespear was an all right guy and Ben Franklin definitely was a good fellow to have around.
I don't know if either of them were eloquent, or just witty. There's a difference.

I don't know if either of them were eloquent, or just witty. There's a difference.

Well, Shakespear was an actor before he was a playwrite, and Franklin was an Ambassador, so I assume that in addition to being witty, they were both good speakers.

His TV show is just his way of making him into a cult figure. After all, his show is six hours long.


Is he that fat guy in the suit that seems to be on every show on the Spanish channel?

Sabado Gigante!!!

i know who hugo chavez is, he's the democratically-elected leader of venezeula, and on top of that he is a great man and an inspiration for those who would wish to see a 21st-century revival of back-to-basics socialism.

pat robertson on the other hand, is one of the most evil men this planet has to offer. it is a sad commentary that america can find 700 of its citizens to follow him, yet alone those millions who take his television rhetorics as gospel. ayatollah pat should just shut the hell up.

Well, Shakespear was an actor before he was a playwrite, and Franklin was an Ambassador, so I assume that in addition to being witty, they were both good speakers.
Who knows? I wasn't alive to hear any of them. Though if I had a time machine, I'd love to take a camcorder and watch these people.

Is he that fat guy in the suit that seems to be on every show on the Spanish channel?

No kidding. Then again, it's a smart move on his part. He can mesmorize the world. I believe that Hugo Chavez and Vladimir Putin are at the forefront of 21st century autocracy. They mesmorize the world with their charm, gain a fiercely loyal base in their own countries, and alienate the rest. This allows them to keep democracy, but they just keep getting elected. Once in office, however, they will get elected regardless of what they do, or what institutions they change.
About the charm part, btw, I wonder how Putin has any of it. He looks like an adult version of that kid who plays Draco Malfoy.

About the charm part, btw, I wonder how Putin has any of it. He looks like an adult version of that kid who plays Draco Malfoy.

*LOL*

i know who hugo chavez is, he's the democratically-elected leader of venezeula, and on top of that he is a great man and an inspiration for those who would wish to see a 21st-century revival of back-to-basics socialism.

pat robertson on the other hand, is one of the most evil men this planet has to offer. it is a sad commentary that america can find 700 of its citizens to follow him, yet alone those millions who take his television rhetorics as gospel. ayatollah pat should just shut the hell up.

http://www.cohguru.com/forum/images/smilies/lmao.gif

Aheheheh… Oh man that's good…

I can't even bring myself to take the mickey out of you man. Here is a tip for you mate, if you are going to espouse "back-to-basics socialism" don't use a censoring pseudo-dictator clown as you're prime example and in the same breath attack *anyone* for their television rhetoric.

Have a good one man, you have made mine. :p

Whatever your opinion of Chavez ( and I admit I don't know enough to form a valid one), I find it hard to believe that a supposed "man of God" can recomend cold blodded murder with a straight face and still have an audience.

Strange times, man. :confused:

Ah, don't you love it how he manages to make Venezuela look like the launching pad of the two big enemies to "FREEDOM"... Communism and Islamic Terror? The two things that worked hand in hand in Afghanistan? :rolleyes:

While Pat Robertson may be an insane fundamentalist psychopath, he is a brilliant PR person. Then again, so is eminem, so was Hitler.
Godwined in the second post. Is that a record or something?

No. I think his language would be better appreciate if he moved to Saudi Arabia.
How do you think they'd react to his comment about Muhammad being a pedophile?

i know who hugo chavez is, he's the democratically-elected leader of venezeula, and on top of that he is a great man and an inspiration for those who would wish to see a 21st-century revival of back-to-basics socialism.

pat robertson on the other hand, is one of the most evil men this planet has to offer. it is a sad commentary that america can find 700 of its citizens to follow him, yet alone those millions who take his television rhetorics as gospel. ayatollah pat should just shut the hell up.
Chavez is going to bankrupt Venezuela with his policies. I'd be willing to bet a shitload of money on it.

Chavez is going to bankrupt Venezuela with his policies. I'd be willing to bet a shitload of money on it.

his policy of introducing collective democratic ownership of factories has shown remarkable increases in productivity, whether this is just excitement on the factory-floors that will eventually fade out or a lasting involvement in production by the people, only time will tell.
it seems though that the only people within venezuela with a bad word to say are the expat american oil barons, the very people who have an interest in keeping the locals subdued, and the people who i personally would elect to have their influence removed.

Chavez is going to bankrupt Venezuela with his policies. I'd be willing to bet a shitload of money on it.

'Coz Venezuela's economy was doing soooooo well before he came along. :rolleyes:

Chavez is as "democratically elected" as Mugabe.

I dunno, I get the feeling that Shakespear was an all right guy and Ben Franklin definitely was a good fellow to have around.
Franklin? Well, i'd trust him to behave around my unmarried daughter. I would not trust him around my wife...

i know who hugo chavez is, he's the democratically-elected leader of venezeula, and on top of that he is a great man and an inspiration for those who would wish to see a 21st-century revival of back-to-basics socialism.


A great man who wiped out the middle class.. a great man who wiped out the financial soverignity of his country.. a great man who wiped out the financial stability of the markets.. a great man who made the working class even more poor, causing the poverty rate to reach 65%...

What is so great about this man? He's an idiot. And the socialist crap he spews is outdated. Hopefully when Castro dies he will lose most of support.

his policy of introducing collective democratic ownership of factories has shown remarkable increases in productivity, whether this is just excitement on the factory-floors that will eventually fade out or a lasting involvement in production by the people, only time will tell.
it seems though that the only people within venezuela with a bad word to say are the expat american oil barons, the very people who have an interest in keeping the locals subdued, and the people who i personally would elect to have their influence removed.
He's chased out foreign investment because nobody's going to invest in a nation where all their work and investment capital can be stolen from them by the government and given away to the people as bribes for the next election. He's chased out the wealthy and middle class of Venezuela, because they don't want to have all their wealth stripped from them. Despite massive oil revenues in the last year he's managed to lose money for the country.

Lots of people have bad words to say. My oldest friend is married to a Venezuelan girl. She and her family were middle class. They left before Venezuela became a communist dictatorship like Cuba. British cattle ranch owners have had their land siezed by the government with the help of the military. Nobody will invest in a nation where their investment can be stolen. Venezuela can't reform it's economy that way.

A great man who wiped out the middle class.. a great man who wiped out the financial soverignity of his country.. a great man who wiped out the financial stability of the markets.. a great man who made the working class even more poor, causing the poverty rate to reach 65%...

What is so great about this man? He's an idiot. And the socialist crap he spews is outdated. Hopefully when Castro dies he will lose most of support.

Proof Mister Mesatecala! We need some proof of your claims!

'Coz Venezuela's economy was doing soooooo well before he came along. :rolleyes:
There's a better way than Chavez's way. He's only going to leave the nation poorer than he found it. The people will enjoy the limited benefits of his redistribution of wealth for couple of years, but in the long run that money will dry up, and a lack of foreign investment will prevent development. Then the people will be as poor or worse than before and with absolutely no prospect of developing their economy.

Proof Mister Mesatecala! We need some proof of your claims!

I don't see you ever bothering to provide proof for your statements. The country no longer has a middle class, dude. Unemployment is currently at 17%. Chavez has done nothing but increase the poverty rate.

Got your attention, didn't it. How did that title make you feel?

A little sleepy.

I don't see you ever bothering to provide proof for your statements. The country no longer has a middle class, dude. Unemployment is currently at 17%. Chavez has done nothing but increase the poverty rate.

I never made any claims! If there is a problem in Venezuela I just want to see some good articles about it.

Ah, don't you love it how he manages to make Venezuela look like the launching pad of the two big enemies to "FREEDOM"... Communism and Islamic Terror? The two things that worked hand in hand in Afghanistan? :rolleyes:
Just remember that the enemy of a person's enemy is not a friend. That's something people in general have a hard time learning, because no one can accept that some humans are pure evil and utterly self serving.

it seems though that the only people within venezuela with a bad word to say are the expat american oil barons, the very people who have an interest in keeping the locals subdued, and the people who i personally would elect to have their influence removed.
American oil interests never had a significant stake in Venezuela. They were among the first to nationalize their industries. The most any outside company has done is given them the ability to move upstream, that is refine oil and sell its products at a retail level. Now they have sufficient know-how to do it themselves. Chavez's rise has nothing to do with the oil industry, save the rumors that he may sell Citgo.

How do you think they'd react to his comment about Muhammad being a pedophile?
Doesn't surprise me that he said that. Then again, I just wanted to say that he had more in common with Osama bin Laden than he does with the average human.

A little sleepy.
Class, allow me to give you a cllass of OPEC, Latin America, and the impact that it had on the effects of business, labor, capital, kleptocracy, and... (feeling drowsy, yet?),

i know who hugo chavez is, he's the democratically-elected leader of venezeula, and on top of that he is a great man and an inspiration for those who would wish to see a 21st-century revival of back-to-basics socialism.

pat robertson on the other hand, is one of the most evil men this planet has to offer. it is a sad commentary that america can find 700 of its citizens to follow him, yet alone those millions who take his television rhetorics as gospel. ayatollah pat should just shut the hell up.

Agreed. Pat Robertson is the anti-Christ.

Venezuela(at least the poor) love Chavez and voted for him twice. He is a great leader who sticks it to the corporations and has no love for Bush, which is a good thing.

Agreed. Pat Robertson is the anti-Christ.

Venezuela(at least the poor) love Chavez and voted for him twice. He is a great leader who sticks it to the corporations and has no love for Bush, which is a good thing.

There seems to be many anti-Christs about nowadays... Bush, Limbaugh, Robertson, Satan...

About Chavez and those who "love" him, the other side of the argument is that they voted for him because they didn't want to have to face his radical militia should they don't. Reminds me of a few others. Stalin, Kim Jong Il, Al-Jazeera... yeah.

Hugo Chavez has seen his fortunes swing dramatically from success to failure and back again since his landslide victory in Venezuela's 1998 presidential election.
Only last July, the leftist leader's supporters were out celebrating his re-election in the streets of Caracas, but by April 2002 the whole country was embroiled in a general strike.

What my rivals don't understand... is that Hugo Chavez is not Chavez but the people of Venezuela



Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez


This admirer of Fidel Castro's Cuba and avowed anti-globalist was pushed from office on 12 April - as a result of his attempts to take control of the world's fifth-biggest oil industry.

But just two days later, after his supporters - mainly Venezuela's poor - took the streets, he was back in the presidential palace.

Eight months on, Mr Chavez is facing his fourth national strike this year - one that is threatening to severely disrupt the country's economy.

Revolutionary promises

The former army paratrooper burst back on to the political scene in 1998, promising to transform Venezuela.

But as Mr Chavez proved unable to bridge the huge gap between the country's rich and poor, his combative rhetoric alienated and alarmed the country's traditional business and political elite.

When Mr Chavez came to power, the old Venezuelan order was falling apart.

Unlike most of its neighbours, Venezuela had enjoyed an unbroken period of democratic government since 1958, but the two main parties which had alternated in power stood accused of presiding over a corrupt system and squandering the country's vast oil wealth.

Hugo Chavez promised "revolutionary" social policies, and constantly abused the "predatory oligarchs" of the establishment as corrupt servants of international capital.

The great provocateur

This populist leader, who never missed an opportunity to address the nation, once described oil executives as living in "luxury chalets where they perform orgies, drinking whisky".

Church leaders in this overwhelmingly Roman Catholic country fared no better. "They do not walk in... the path of Christ," said Mr Chavez at one stage.


Chavez and Castro both oppose US domination
Whenever the media reported discontent with his rule, he accused it of being in the pay of reactionaries.

He courted controversy in foreign policy, too, making high-profile visits to Cuba and Iraq, while allegedly flirting with leftist rebels in Colombia and making a huge territorial claim on Guyana.

Relations with Washington reached a new low when he accused it of "fighting terror with terror" during the war in Afghanistan after 11 September.

But Mr Chavez's "revolution" had little real impact on the lives of ordinary Venezuelans, who still suffer from chronic poverty and widespread unemployment despite the country's oil wealth.

His popularity rating had fallen from a high of 80% to 30% last December, when the first mass street protests erupted.

But, as his dramatic return to power showed, Mr Chavez still commanded much grass-roots support.

From coup-leader to president

The ex-paratrooper's journey along the road to power has been an eventful one.

Mr Chavez first came to prominence in February 1992 when he led an attempt to overthrow the government of President Carlos Andres Perez amid growing anger at economic austerity measures.

Hugo Chavez
Born 28 July 1954 in Sabaneta, State of Barinas, the son of schoolteachers

Graduated from Military Academy with a degree in engineering in 1975

Has five children, three girls and two boys

Keen baseball player



But the foundations for that failed coup had been laid a decade earlier, when Mr Chavez and a group of fellow military officers founded a secret movement named after the father of South American independence leader, Simon Bolivar.

The February revolt by members of the Revolutionary Bolivarian Movement claimed 18 lives and left 60 injured before Colonel Chavez gave himself up.

He was languishing in a military jail when his associates tried again to seize power nine months later.

That second coup attempt in November 1992 was crushed as well, but only after the rebels had captured a TV station and broadcast a videotape of Colonel Chavez announcing the fall of the government.

Mr Chavez spent two years in prison before being granted a pardon.

He then relaunched his party as the Movement of the Fifth Republic and made the transition from soldier to politician.




Key stories
Brooding danger
Strike in pictures
Oil industry
Views from Venezuela


Background
Profile: Hugo Chavez
Venezuela timeline
Country profile

TALKING POINT

Your experiences


See also:


12 Apr 02 | Americas
Venezuela's president resigns

29 Jan 02 | Americas
Venezuelan church rejects Chavez talks

17 Mar 02 | Americas
Oil industry locks horns with Chavez

10 Aug 00 | Middle East
Iraq greets defiant Chavez

30 Oct 00 | Americas
Castro and Chavez croon together

Internet links:


Office of the Venezuelan president (in Spanish)

The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet sites


This guy was elected by the people in the country he now leads . No one but the people who elected him has a right to remove him . No matter what flavor his politics or what dumb shit he might say . Pat Robertson needs to get back on his meds and have his diaper changed .

Pat Robertson: Christian in name only

Honestly. He must belong to the group of christians that believe that "God helps those who help themselves" is actually in the Bible.

No. I think his language would be better appreciate if he moved to Saudi Arabia.
Hey, if he converted to Islam and kept spouting his rhetoric, exchanging christian phrases with muslim ones where necessaary, they'd welcome him with open arms.

Pat Robertson: Christian in name only

Honestly. He must belong to the group of christians that believe that "God helps those who help themselves" is actually in the Bible.
It's a nice thought, but I just don't see it in there. I want to be the independent person that I am, yet I see nothing in the Bible that would help me. If anything, Jesus sounds a bit like Frederic the Great: philosophical, loads of good iddeas, and very autocratic. I don't know how so many Christians are able to keep the two outta conflict. I wish I were like them.

Hey, if he converted to Islam and kept spouting his rhetoric, exchanging christian phrases with muslim ones where necessaary, they'd welcome him with open arms.
Actually, that'd work wiith any religion, or even a philosophy. Any self-confident person with an idea is bound to gain followers that are willing to shed blood in its name.

bump

Hugo Chavez is a scum bag, he's evil and currupt. bla bla... but the Venezuelans voted for him. The US should not interfere.

As for Pat, quoting my favorite newspaper... on the seventh day he got a stone for a brain.

Venezuela elected Chavez sort of like China elected Mao and the Soviets elected Stalin. It is easy to get elected when you control the voting process, have armed soldiers watching over shoulders at the ballot box, throw out elections you don’t like and make your serious opponents disappear.

This guy is close to Castro, he is not arresting librarians like Castro does, yet, but he probably will. He is messing around with oil prices, but it is “His” oil, so we should not worry too much about that. Unless you think "His" oil should belong to “His” people.

Attacking Venezuela would be difficult at best to justify. We could do it, but it would not really be in our interests. Killing Chavez would, but only if we have a viable way to replace him with someone rational.

You have to understand that the kind of culture the Spanish set up in the south is very different from the kind of Culture the French and British set up in the North. Most of these countries never really valued democracy, education, industrial development, freedom or hard work. They slide in to Dictatorship, Colonialism and Decay the minute you look the other way. That is how people who are raised to adhere to the virtues of peasantry live.

Moslems see it as a ripe ground to seek converts. They offer a kind of grand pride and excuse. The same way “Left Wingers” see Islam as a potential ally against Western Civilization, Islam sees the Aztlan Crowd as a potential ally against America. They both build their Evangelization on claims of dispossession of land and blaming an outside power for their inability to build decent lives.

Pat Robertsen calling for the assassination of Hugo Chavez when he supported rebel coup leader/dictator Charles Taylor is the biggest piece of shit hypocrisy. And given that Robertsen is an anal-retentive Televangelist Fundie Bushevik at heart, I'm not surprised.

There was a funny cartoon in the news paper (opinion part)
It has a man with a beard with stones to the right of him with commandments on them and a secretary to the left of him saying:
It's a reverend Pat Robertson,
Moses, apparently you got number six
totally and utterly wrong......

*snip*

Pat Robertson. Is that you?

Pat Robertson. Is that you?
lol http://www.xboxworld.com.au/forum/images/smilies/beer.gif

About Chavez and those who "love" him, the other side of the argument is that they voted for him because they didn't want to have to face his radical militia should they don't. Reminds me of a few others. Stalin, Kim Jong Il, Al-Jazeera... yeah.

Al-Jazeera is a news company?

Stalin and Kim Jong Il have never faced elections.

If you're gonna say something stupid at least make it plausable.

Venezuela elected Chavez sort of like China elected Mao and the Soviets elected Stalin. It is easy to get elected when you control the voting process, have armed soldiers watching over shoulders at the ballot box, throw out elections you don’t like and make your serious opponents disappear.

Stalin and Mao never stood for elections. Mao was party leader long before the CPC took over China. Stalin came to power by having everyone in his way killed and kicked out of the USSR.


This guy is close to Castro, he is not arresting librarians like Castro does, yet, but he probably will. He is messing around with oil prices, but it is “His” oil, so we should not worry too much about that. Unless you think "His" oil should belong to “His” people.

Who are you to say he'll probably arrest librarians, he'll probably sue you for defamation long before he arrests librarians. :p


Moslems see it as a ripe ground to seek converts. They offer a kind of grand pride and excuse. The same way “Left Wingers” see Islam as a potential ally against Western Civilization, Islam sees the Aztlan Crowd as a potential ally against America. They both build their Evangelization on claims of dispossession of land and blaming an outside power for their inability to build decent lives.

The left tends to be anti-religion, militant Muslims would probably have a better ally in militant Christians then in anti-relgious Socialists. The socialists will tell them both to stick their holy books up their ass.

The Communist examples don't really work but there are many examples of people who took power and kept it after they were democratically elected. Examples: Hitler in Germany, Saddam Hussein was elected, Vladimir Putin not quite as extreme but getting there. Just for example.