NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, Pat Robertson thinks that the US should assassinate Chavez. (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/08/23/robertson.chavez/index.html?section=cnn_latest)

Mighty Christian of you Pat. Might I suggest a remedial Bible Study course. Start with those pesky commandments that seem so difficult for you to memorize...

And the same anti-gay activists who argued that gay marriage would be harmful to kids are now complaining that legally requiring gay parents to take care of the kids is a bad thing too! (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050823/ap_on_re_us/lesbian_custody) Because, apparently, protecting the slippery slope to legitimizing gay marriage is, in fact, more important than actually protecting those very same children that they claim to so care about.

Mighty Christian of you folks too. Go hang out with Pat.


And once again, GW invokes the name of Bin Laden to justify the continuing war in Iraq. Does anyone still buy that? I thought that after the WMD and ties to terror BS had been disproved it was all about liberating an oppressed people? Liberating them from what? Secularism and equality in a country un- ravaged by daily car bombings while also blaming them for the actions of family members of your business partners George?

He also goes a step further and blames water (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050820/ts_nm/bush_dc_4) Damn that H2O.... because, you see, "On [Sept 11], we learned that vast oceans and friendly neighbors no longer protect us from those who wish to harm our people"


Shit George, the indigenous population could have told you THAT! Ask a Mohawk if Big Water was an effective defense even 400 years ago.


And then just let us know when they stop pointing and laughing. Because THAT might be newsworthy. Because water hasn't been much of a defense since the invention of.... the boat!

I mean really, THAT was your anti-terror solution before 9-11? If they can't swim here everything will be okey-dokey? Given his demonstrated strict adherence to mantra in the face of all contravening facts, I firmly expect the next budget to include a new policy directive to get the Pentagon to firm up this supposedly impervious natural defensive system. This "firming up" will be accomplished via a massive system of CFC-using freezers utilized to surround the country .... with ICE!

Yeah, let's see if those fuckers can SKATE here next time!!!

Ugh, people like this make me sick. Very sick.

In summary, the US is still the Facist asshole of the world...

Ehh. Evily idiotic people.

In summary, the US is still the Facist asshole of the world...
Come on, you're exaggerating. Pat Robertson and the religious nuts don't speak for the whole USA. Hell, even W only had a slim majority of the vote in the 2004 election, and that's of the minority who actually chose to vote.

There are plenty of nations that are much more repressive. America's only going through a phase. The mid-term congresional elections will begin to reverse the trend toward Republican dominance of our political system.

And once again, GW invokes the name of Bin Laden to justify the continuing war in Iraq. Does anyone still buy that? I thought that after the WMD and ties to terror BS had been disproved it was all about liberating an oppressed people? Liberating them from what? Secularism and equality in a country un- ravaged by daily car bombings while also blaming them for the actions of family members of your business partners George?

Now, I agree on the other points and disagree with the Iraq war - however, Sadaam was a vicious and cruel bastard, so there certainly was something to liberate, had it been done right.

In summary, the US is still the Facist asshole of the world...
He said it, not me! :D

In summary, the US is still the Facist asshole of the world...

*sigh*

Okay, I'm no patriot, and I know the US is not the most liked country right now, but to be honest, it is far from fascist.

You want fascist, go to North Korea, Iran or Saudi Arabia.

The US isn't even close to fascist. Look we got idiots like Pat Robertson in this country, but they don't speak for anybody but themselves and their little following. They don't make the majority. It isn't fair to go an generalize about the entire country. And whether you like Bush or not, he is not a fascist nor is he a dictator.

And the comment Pat made about Chavez was very irresponsible. We are trying to get Chavez to stop with the errors he is committing.

However, I do wholeheartedly agree with you on gay couples. We do deserve the same rights, and those nuts are in fact going up on the slippery slope. Always remember, there are people to oppose them in this country, and I am one of them.

And the same anti-gay activists who argued that gay marriage would be harmful to kids are now complaining that legally requiring gay parents to take care of the kids is a bad thing too! (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050823/ap_on_re_us/lesbian_custody) Because, apparently, protecting the slippery slope to legitimizing gay marriage is, in fact, more important than actually protecting those very same children that they claim to so care about.

Has anyone ever really been fooled to think that these people give a crap about children? This is just a very apparent example of the hypocrisy that has always been there with these people; they would step over their dead bodies if it meant they could stick it to gay people.

*sigh*

Okay, I'm no patriot, and I know the US is not the most liked country right now, but to be honest, it is far from fascist.

You want fascist, go to North Korea, Iran or Saudi Arabia.

Don't bother. This is just another thread started, not to skim through the most notable headlines in the news today, but to bash the US.... its president, its policies, its people, its economy, its religions, its governmental system, its political makeup, its everything and anything that Steph can take, slant, and throw out there as further proof that the US is far inferior to Canada or any other nation in the world. <yawn>

I can't stand Chavez for his politics, but getting rid of him is something the Venezualan people need to do themselves, and not by assassination.

I wasn't around for the Semptember 11th when the US did something like that, but I doubt many Chileans forgot about it...

Don't bother. This is just another thread started, not to skim through the most notable headlines in the news today, but to bash the US.... its president, its policies, its people, its economy, its religions, its governmental system, its political makeup, its everything and anything that Steph can take, slant, and throw out there as further proof that the US is far inferior to Canada or any other nation in the world. <yawn>Ah, so now Steph is responsible for what people post in her threads?

Don't bother. This is just another thread started, not to skim through the most notable headlines in the news today, but to bash the US....

Nah, it couldn't be a thread to point out the shitty happenings in this country. Naaaah.

Don't bother. This is just another thread started, not to skim through the most notable headlines in the news today, but to bash the US.... its president, its policies, its people, its economy, its religions, its governmental system, its political makeup, its everything and anything that Steph can take, slant, and throw out there as further proof that the US is far inferior to Canada or any other nation in the world. <yawn>

Wow, a grandmother and a mind reader! I am impressed.. sorry chick, you fall short on at least one of those. Please don't suppose to assume what *I* mean, because we all know what it means when people ass-sume! I also don't believe I brought Canada up once.. but nice try, okay, really it wasn't.

Don't bother. This is just another thread started, not to skim through the most notable headlines in the news today, but to bash the US.... its president, its policies, its people, its economy, its religions, its governmental system, its political makeup, its everything and anything that Steph can take, slant, and throw out there as further proof that the US is far inferior to Canada or any other nation in the world. <yawn>
In fairness, Steph has a point about Pat Robertson and his followers. He's a real-life troll and a phoney.

Ah, so now Steph is responsible for what people post in her threads?

I didn't say anything about what people post in her threads. I simply pointed out that this was another typical slam the US thread. I had checked on it hoping that some "real" news would be submitted for discussion, not the rantings of a 75 year old evangelist and a spin of the president's speech.

Advocating the assasination of a head of state isn't exactly the sort of thing the US wants to be known for (but they probably have tried in reality in Chavez's case).

I didn't say anything about what people post in her threads. I simply pointed out that this was another typical slam the US thread. I had checked on it hoping that some "real" news would be submitted for discussion, not the rantings of a 75 year old evangelist and a spin of the president's speech.

Spin, eh? Of course, you should be plenty familiar with that term.

In fairness, Steph has a point about Pat Robertson and his followers. He's a real-life troll and a phoney.

No argument there. But, he is 75 and in recent years has shown a marked decrease in mental acuity. I think the staff on the 700 Club humor him because he is the founder and probably controls the money. This is hardly the first time that he has said something outlandish.

Robertson is a fool and we all know it. Even I ignore his rants and raves. He doesn't speak for every american. Only the President of the United States can claim that because he runs the country (and I'm talking generically because he does speak for the nation as a whole no matter what party occupies it).

As for everything else, I'm seeing some spin here and some things taken out of context so I'm not even going to try to do anything about that because it'll do no good.

In all, the first paragraph was good and it does need to be addressed but then, if the media ignores Pat Robertson, the bastard would go away and leave the rest of us alone.

I had checked on it hoping that some "real" news would be submitted for discussion, not the rantings of a 75 year old evangelist and a spin of the president's speech.

Point out where it was not news? I did link all my sources.. Point out what I said wasn't true based on those sources?

Zooke if you've come to just troll this thread, don't bother. Please.

And the comment Pat made about Chavez was very irresponsible. We are trying to get Chavez to stop with the errors he is committing.

What are the "errors" Chavez is committing? Is it nationalizing the oil reserves and using the revenue to create universities that don't charge a tuition fee? Is it litteracy programs for the poor? Is it selling oil to Cuba at preferencial prices in exchange for doctors who treat the poor free of charge and train Venezuelan students to practice medicine? Is it trying to improve economic relations with Arab nations?

Spin, eh? Of course, you should be plenty familiar with that term.

Everyone spins Potaria! Democrats, Republicans, Independants. They all do it. We have to get past the spin and see what is underneath the story to even get most of the truth these days.

Everyone spins Potaria! Democrats, Republicans, Independants. They all do it. We have to get past the spin and see what is underneath the story to even get most of the truth these days.

Which is sad, really.

Come on, you're exaggerating. Pat Robertson and the religious nuts don't speak for the whole USA. Hell, even W only had a slim majority of the vote in the 2004 election, and that's of the minority who actually chose to vote.

Actually, I think you'll find that voters were the majority this time around by just a hair.

Which is sad, really.

I agree with you 100% on that. We can't trust the media for our news (and that is ALL news programs and channels) nor the papers (though some do try their best)

Politicians are worthless because they do things for political gain wether intentional or not.

And in regards to websites, you can find almost anything to prove both sides of an issue.

That is why everyone needs to settle down and think about things logically without jumping to conclusions as we all do. It is human nature to do so but in today's society, we can't afford to do that.

I agree with you 100% on that. We can't trust the media for our news (and that is ALL news programs and channels) nor the papers (though some do try their best)

Politicians are worthless because they do things for political gain wether intentional or not.

And in regards to websites, you can find almost anything to prove both sides of an issue.

That is why everyone needs to settle down and think about things logically without jumping to conclusions as we all do. It is human nature to do so but in today's society, we can't afford to do that.

There are ways to cut through the spin Corneliu, all you have to do is ignore the comments and just look at the facts, the things you know for sure. The things people say for sure. The evidence that is there for sure. Just drop the commentary and look at the facts. Spin is out there and we are part of it and victim to it, but we don't have to be if we only consider the absolute facts.

I didn't say anything about what people post in her threads. I simply pointed out that this was another typical slam the US thread. I had checked on it hoping that some "real" news would be submitted for discussion, not the rantings of a 75 year old evangelist and a spin of the president's speech.Well, typical "Slam the US" threads, as far as I remember, always mentioned the country in the title, so as to attract as many people as possible.

Now what this discussion could well turn into is a comparison of how the US used to deal with people no where near as bad as Chavez and how there's starting to be support for doing that again. I think that's scary and it certainly advocates a critical discussion of US politics.

Everyone spins Potaria! Democrats, Republicans, Independants. They all do it. We have to get past the spin and see what is underneath the story to even get most of the truth these days.Which is a problem with a polarized society. You'll notice things usually aren't as "spun" in some countries' medias.

You'll notice things usually aren't as "spun" in some countries' medias.

Exactly!

There are ways to cut through the spin Corneliu, all you have to do is ignore the comments and just look at the facts, the things you know for sure.

Which isn't easy as it sounds. How do you know what is fact and what is fiction anymore? With everyone spinning, there's alittle amount of fact and alot of fiction. You have to sort that out from both sides before you can even start piecing together the truth.

The things people say for sure.

And if you have someone that is a perfect spinmaster how do you take what that person says as fact or not? Its not as easy as you make it out to believe Stephistan and I'm surprised that your trying to make it black and white when infact, it isn't.

The evidence that is there for sure.

I could say something regarding this but that'll detract from this line of arguement and start a whole new round of arguements. How do you know if the evidence is factual or not?

Just drop the commentary and look at the facts.

And the facts are?

Spin is out there and we are part of it and victim to it, but we don't have to be if we only consider the absolute facts.

And how precisely do you get at the absolute facts? It is nearly impossible to do in todays political spectrum.

Robertson is a fool and we all know it. Even I ignore his rants and raves. He doesn't speak for every american. Only the President of the United States can claim that because he runs the country (and I'm talking generically because he does speak for the nation as a whole no matter what party occupies it).

As for everything else, I'm seeing some spin here and some things taken out of context so I'm not even going to try to do anything about that because it'll do no good.

In all, the first paragraph was good and it does need to be addressed but then, if the media ignores Pat Robertson, the bastard would go away and leave the rest of us alone.

I'm finishing my lunch and getting ready to get back to R&E's. :rolleyes: Obviously questioning the use of news stories of little importance or with obvious misinterpretation and slant is "trolling" so it's just as well that this "chick" does have better things to do. Why don't you start a thread with some "real" news...like the successful evacuation of the Gaza Strip, the progress on the Iraqi constitution, al-Qaida's link to the Jordon bombings, the Chinese/Russian war games, the possibility of approval of the al-Wasat party in Egypt, Brazil's ambassador's statement on possible British police coverup...well, there are dozens of newsworthy topics.

Damn. I read the entire first post, and I get ready to type up some good stuff...and then I realize... wait... I don't have anything to argue against. I agree with everything that was said in the first post. Damn. :p

Which is a problem with a polarized society. You'll notice things usually aren't as "spun" in some countries' medias.

Actually, if you get down to it, they do more spinning than people realize. Sometimes, it takes an outsider to see the spin than one who watches something constantly. I can see the Spin on Fox News, ABC, CBS, NBC, BBC, Al Jazeera, Al Arabia, Iraq TV (during the 2nd Gulf War)!

Corneliu - It's not actually that hard. The facts are what people actually said. The facts are what actualy happened. Spin only comes from people's views of the facts, the actions are the facts. The results are the facts. ;)

And how precisely do you get at the absolute facts? It is nearly impossible to do in todays political spectrum.Let me show you just who sits in a German Public Channel's board:
Depending on which of the many channels that make up the ARD, they have between 30 to 74 seats in their "Rundfunkräte" (broadcast boards).
These are occupied by the following (as taken from ARD.de):
Generell vorgesehen sind Rundfunkratsmitglieder der beiden großen Konfessionen, der jüdischen Kultusgemeinden, der Arbeitnehmer und Arbeitgeber, Parlaments- oder in jüngerer Zeit eher Parteienvertreter sowie Regierungsvertreter.In English, these are representatives from the two major faiths (Catholicism and Evangelism), Jewish educational communities, Labor Unions and the industry, parliamentary or more recently party representatives, and representatives of the Government.

That is how you attempt to rule out bias in the news.

I wish people would stop hating on Chavez. He's not a dictator - he was elected.(In fact, if you're gonna call Chavez a dictator, don't call it hyperbole when someone on the left calls Bush a Nazi.). He's not crazy - he's afraid for his life and nation. If you check history, you'll see that being a left-wing leader, democratic or not, in Latin America is hazardous to one's health, once the US notices you. He's not a communist. Period. He's a socialist, a democratic socialist in fact. In fact he's doing well with his socialism - the introduction of a new, democratic style of management to state run factories has increased thier prodcutivity 11% so far.

Oh, and Pat, THERE IS NO INTERNATIONAL COMMUNIST CONSIRACY!!! Talk about crazy! He is not a threat to US security, or to regional stability. Chavez has never even suggested that he would attack or destabilize any nation anywhere - he only says he will fight a US invasion if it comes.

To suggest his assassination on national television is... well I can't really find the right word. Insane? Uncalled for? like throwing gasoline on a brushfire? Oh well - I just hope no one around here agrees with him.

and PS - Pat's not a Chrisitian. I'd like him to run that assassination idea by Jesus, and see if he doesn't get a biblical bitchslap.

THERE IS NO INTERNATIONAL COMMUNIST CONSIRACY!!!

Yes there is...but that's a secret, and I wasn't supposed to tell anyone. So keep quiet about it please, or zombie-Marx will eat my brains.

Actually, if you get down to it, they do more spinning than people realize. Sometimes, it takes an outsider to see the spin than one who watches something constantly. I can see the Spin on Fox News, ABC, CBS, NBC, BBC, Al Jazeera, Al Arabia, Iraq TV (during the 2nd Gulf War)!You see, I watch BBC World, CNN international, and the German public channels. I go for what it is that happened, and not how they show it to me. CNN does a bit of spinning by choosing topics on how "Learning from Europe" or "Inside an Intelligence Meltdown" are the titles of its programs. I watch the German channels for analyses, because not only do the people that opposed the war watch over the shoulders of the people reporting, so do the people that were for it. Even more so since the parliamentary representation is based on the region, and not the government, and the conservatives rule almost all state governments.
The ARD also has the policy of making sure its news is accurate and always confirmed by two independent sources. Actually, the ARD doesn't even use a teleprompter for its news, they use papers that the news anchor reads to the public.

Obviously questioning the use of news stories of little importance or with obvious misinterpretation and slant is "trolling" so it's just as well that this "chick" does have better things to do. Why don't you start a thread with some "real" news...like the successful evacuation of the Gaza Strip, the progress on the Iraqi constitution, al-Qaida's link to the Jordon bombings, the Chinese/Russian war games, the possibility of approval of the al-Wasat party in Egypt, Brazil's ambassador's statement on possible British police coverup...well, there are dozens of newsworthy topics.

Perhaps what catches one's attention in the news doesn't catch anothers. Sure I could of added all those things and my opinion on them. However that would of been one hell of a long thread...lol. So I picked the news stories out of the headlines today that I figured were stupid and that is my right to do so. If you feel the subject matter that you've brought up is thread worthy, I encourage you to start your own thread on said subject manner. This thread was just about the stupidity of what *I* found in the headlines today. To read anything more into it, would be your error, not mine. You don't get to choose what interests me.

Yes there is...but that's a secret, and I wasn't supposed to tell anyone. So keep quiet about it please, or zombie-Marx will eat my brains.

You have Zombie-Marx? Let's pit him against Zombie Adam Smith in a fight to the undeath! Solve this whole question once and for all.

But you see, I know there's no international communist conspiracy infiltrating America, because I have been openly and vocally socialist for like 5 years now, so I would have gotten a recruitment flyer in the mail, or at least a cursory email from them or something. But to this day nothing, plus there isn't a communist bloc anymore, so I'm gonna say that Pat is crazy and there's no international communist conspiracy.

... unless that's exactly what they want us to think :eek:

To suggest his assassination on national television is... well I can't really find the right word. Insane? Uncalled for? like throwing gasoline on a brushfire? Oh well - I just hope no one around here agrees with him.Actually, in Germany, doing something like that constitutes the criminal offense of "calling for murder" (Aufruf zum Mord) which is what we locked the islamic hate-preacher known as the Caliph of Cologne, Metin Kaplan, away for for a few years.

You have Zombie-Marx? Let's pit him against Zombie Adam Smith in a fight to the undeath! Solve this whole question once and for all.

Oooh, let's have a free-for-all and throw in Zombie-Proudhon and Zombie-Neitzsche too.

But you see, I know there's no international communist conspiracy infiltrating America, because I have been openly and vocally socialist for like 5 years now, so I would have gotten a recruitment flyer in the mail, or at least a cursory email from them or something. But to this day nothing, plus there isn't a communist bloc anymore, so I'm gonna say that Pat is crazy and there's no international communist conspiracy.

... unless that's exactly what they want us to think :eek:

Hehe. Or maybe they already count on your support, considering you're already active. And maybe George Bush is a communist, a puppet put in power to destroy the USA? His foreign policy certainly seems to be on the right track.

Corneliu - It's not actually that hard. The facts are what people actually said.

Do you really want to go there? If that is the case then shut up regarding Bush lying about wmd in Iraq. He said it so it must be factual. That is precisely what your saying and even I am not that dumb to actually believe that is what you are saying.

The facts are what actualy happened. Spin only comes from people's views of the facts, the actions are the facts. The results are the facts. ;)

Ok:

Fact: Iraq has a new draft Constitution. Not voted on yet but they do have one.

Fact: It is relatively quiet in 14 of 18 provinces and the other 4 provinces are Sunni dominated and that is where the bulk of the trouble is.

Fact: Sunni Imams are telling the Sunnis to register so that they can vote on the new constitution when it gets approved by the Constitutional delegation.

Fact: Insurgency attacks are actually going down and not up.

Fact: The money for the Insurgency is drying up because we are tracking down their money sources and choking it off.

Steph, my advise to you is to stop being so naive. Everything isn't black and white and if you truly do have a Doctorate in Political Science (which is now in doubt do to your replies here) you would know this. No doctor in Poli Sci would be spouting what your spouting. None of the ones I know have stated what your stating anyway.

Oooh, let's have a free-for-all and throw in Zombie-Proudhon and Zombie-Neitzsche too.



And maybe George Bush is a communist, a puppet put in power to destroy the USA? His foreign policy certainly seems to be on the right track.

Hehe, nod, nod. :D

Let me show you just who sits in a German Public Channel's board:
Depending on which of the many channels that make up the ARD, they have between 30 to 74 seats in their "Rundfunkräte" (broadcast boards).
These are occupied by the following (as taken from ARD.de):
In English, these are representatives from the two major faiths (Catholicism and Evangelism), Jewish educational communities, Labor Unions and the industry, parliamentary or more recently party representatives, and representatives of the Government.

That is how you attempt to rule out bias in the news.

And you actually believe that? I have a bridge for sale in San Francisco for ya if you do. As well as a beach in Miami!

Actually, in Germany, doing something like that constitutes the criminal offense of "calling for murder" (Aufruf zum Mord) which is what we locked the islamic hate-preacher known as the Caliph of Cologne, Metin Kaplan, away for for a few years.

*chuckes*

Sometimes I think that should be a crime. Especially when the person calling for it is in a position of influence on society, like say a preacher.

Do you really want to go there? If that is the case then shut up regarding Bush lying about wmd in Iraq. He said it so it must be factual. That is precisely what your saying and even I am not that dumb to actually believe that is what you are saying.

I think you missed my point. I wasn't saying what Bush says is fact, I'm saying that he said it is fact. See the difference? Cheney says the insurgents are in their last throws, but what we see with American troops being killed daily would be fact that Cheney is wrong, but he did in fact say that. And in fact troops are dying daily. See the difference?

Oooh, let's have a free-for-all and throw in Zombie-Proudhon and Zombie-Neitzsche too.



Hehe. Or maybe they already count on your support, considering you're already active. And maybe George Bush is a communist, a puppet put in power to destroy the USA? His foreign policy certainly seems to be on the right track.

ROFL :D

I think you missed my point.

Didn't miss your point at all Stephistan.

I wasn't saying what Bush says is fact, I'm saying that he said it is fact.

"The facts are what people actually said." That is what you said. Bush said Iraq had WMD. By this quote, that makes it factual. Don't try to back pedal now Steph.

See the difference? Cheney says the insurgents are in their last throws, but what we see with American troops being killed daily would be fact that Cheney is wrong, but he did in fact say that.

And yet the insurgency is beginning to slow down. Either through raids or choking off the money supply and cutting off the borders (as we have done with Syria) Terror attacks are decreasing, slowly, but they are decreasing. So you could say, Cheney is only half right. Its still a threat but they're beginning to feel the pinch. Besides that, rumor on the vine has it that bin Laden asked Zarqawi to leave Iraq. That's rumor anyway so I'm not claiming it to be factual information.

And in fact troops are dying daily. See the difference?

And more would be dying except for raids and specialized units hunting down and getting rid of IEDs before they explode. I heard a story regarding one of those units. A lady that my dad flew out of the area said they get blown up once or twice a night digging up IEDs. Thanks to the vehicles they were in, they don't get hurt. They get most of them before they explode and also, the army actually got smart and is letting the Air Force haul the supplies and not the military truck drivers.

Fact: Insurgency attacks are actually going down and not up.
Interesting... these sites seem to disprove your 'fact' turned to 'opinion'.
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_attacks_042705,00.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/16/AR2005071601363.html
Mainly the "In May, an estimated 90 suicide bombings were carried out in the war-torn country".

Interesting... these sites seem to disprove your 'fact' turned to 'opinion'.
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_attacks_042705,00.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/16/AR2005071601363.html
Mainly the "In May, an estimated 90 suicide bombings were carried out in the war-torn country".

And what is this month? Oh yea! August. Stop using old news! Only 90? I remember a time when it was over 100 per day! Oops I guess you proved it for me!

Corneliu - It's not actually that hard. The facts are what people actually said. The facts are what actualy happened. Spin only comes from people's views of the facts, the actions are the facts. The results are the facts.
But you're depending on journalists to honestly report the facts. It's hard.

And frankly this is rich coming from someone who spends most of her commentary on this forum spouting generic anti-Bush sloganeering.

protecting the slippery slope to legitimizing gay marriage is, in fact, more important than actually protecting those very same children that they claim to so care about.
I thought that after the WMD and ties to terror BS had been disproved it was all about liberating an oppressed people? Liberating them from what? Secularism and equality in a country un- ravaged by daily car bombings
He also goes a step further and blames water Damn that H2O.
Yep, cutting through the spin there. :rolleyes:

(It's also untrue that Iraqis enjoyed secularism and equality in Iraq. Saddam had laws in place that Pat Robertson only dreams about, and the Ba'ath party were a class above the regular Iraqi proles, with the Hussein family enjoying life as a virtual royal family.)

Politicians are worthless because they do things for political gain wether intentional or not.
Ha! This is coming from a self-proclaimed Republican who spends his time on this forum basically saying "Bush Bush Bush is the perfect president; anything he does is justified if it's to 'defend America' ya ya!" *swallow*

And what is this month? Oh yea! August. Stop using old news! Only 90? I remember a time when it was over 100 per day! Oops I guess you proved it for me!

You have yet to show any evidence for yourself.

You have yet to show any evidence for yourself.

However, you proved that homicide bombings are down from them being over a hundred per day.

What are the "errors" Chavez is committing? Is it nationalizing the oil reserves and using the revenue to create universities that don't charge a tuition fee? Is it litteracy programs for the poor? Is it selling oil to Cuba at preferencial prices in exchange for doctors who treat the poor free of charge and train Venezuelan students to practice medicine? Is it trying to improve economic relations with Arab nations?
He's scaring away foreign investment, causing the wealthy and middle class to leave the country, and losing money despite the massive increase in the price of oil.

And you actually believe that? I have a bridge for sale in San Francisco for ya if you do. As well as a beach in Miami!So how is a news show more likely to be biased if it has all those people supervising it than a news show that is privately owned?
There is no guarantee against bias, but that's how you attempt to rule it out.

He's scaring away foreign investment, causing the wealthy and middle class to leave the country, and losing money despite the massive increase in the price of oil.

Considering the wealthy and middle class are a lazy minority, no big loss there. Considering foreign investor is a euphamism for transnational corporations that exploit the resources and people of a nation, again, no big loss there. Considering that the price of gas in Venezuela is the lowest in the world, it seems the only ones who are paying high prices are the Gringos, again... no big loss there.

However, you proved that homicide bombings are down from them being over a hundred per day.Did he? I thought he showed what they were now... not later. We only have your word for it that they were over a hundred...

Oooh, let's have a free-for-all and throw in Zombie-Proudhon and Zombie-Neitzsche too.

zombie-proudhon is a pansy. my money is on zombie-bakunin or zombie-malatesta.

Considering the wealthy and middle class are a lazy minority, no big loss there. Considering foreign investor is a euphamism for transnational corporations that exploit the resources and people of a nation, again, no big loss there. Considering that the price of gas in Venezuela is the lowest in the world, it seems the only ones who are paying high prices are the Gringos, again... no big loss there.

Unemployment is over 10%, the economy is dangerously imbalanced, government corporations are corrupt and he's destabilzing the entire region. Plus, he's been rigging elections, arresting opponents, and consolidating power turning democracy in to a farce. Getting rid of him would be a benefit to say the least.

Only 90? I remember a time when it was over 100 per day!

no you don't. there were never 100 suicide bombings in a single day, let alone over an extended period of time to make it 'per day'.

Unemployment is over 10%, the economy is dangerously imbalanced, government corporations are corrupt and he's destabilzing the entire region. Plus, he's been rigging elections, arresting opponents, and consolidating power turning democracy in to a farce. Getting rid of him would be a benefit to say the least.It really depends on how. Plus, that's not something for anyone but the Venezuelan people to decide. Patty seems to be pissed because Venezuela happens to be an oil rich country that the US gets oil from and that Chavez supports Iran's "quest" for nuclear weapons. I doubt he'd give a damn about him otherwise.

But you're depending on journalists to honestly report the facts. It's hard.

And frankly this is rich coming from someone who spends most of her commentary on this forum spouting generic anti-Bush sloganeering.

Well, I don't live in the USA, thus we're not exposed to as much spin as they are. I watch American news, yes, but that is not what I count on for the "facts" And it's not "rich" if the shoe fits, well, you know the rest.

Didn't miss your point at all Stephistan.

Oh, I think you did, you're just playing the game of semantics now.



"The facts are what people actually said." That is what you said. Bush said Iraq had WMD. By this quote, that makes it factual. Don't try to back pedal now Steph.

No back peddling required. I said that if Bush says it, then it is fact that he said it, not that it is fact. You misread me, or I will admit it's possible I didn't make myself clear enough for you. But you know exactly what I'm saying Corneliu... and you know I know you do. ;)

zombie-proudhon is a pansy. my money is on zombie-bakunin or zombie-malatesta.

Yeah, but Proudhon seems to incite somewhat more hate from Marxists than Bakunin or other anarchists. Heh.

It really depends on how. Plus, that's not something for anyone but the Venezuelan people to decide. Patty seems to be pissed because Venezuela happens to be an oil rich country that the US gets oil from and that Chavez supports Iran's "quest" for nuclear weapons. I doubt he'd give a damn about him otherwise.

I wouldn't kill him if the option existed; that would be murder. However, he has done some things which are threatening to economic and political stability in the world and should be removed through some means. The only problem is, he's repressing democracy, threatening opponents and rigging elections, which makes it hard for the people to do anything.

What I find most confusing is the 'islamic extremist' remark...

South America is mostly noted for its large Spanish-speaking Catholic population...so where does the export of islamic fundamentalism come in? What's he trying to say, that Chavez is going to import jobless Saudis and send them across the Mexican border? :confused:

I wouldn't kill him if the option existed; that would be murder. However, he has done some things which are threatening to economic and political stability in the world and should be removed through some means. The only problem is, he's repressing democracy, threatening opponents and rigging elections, which makes it hard for the people to do anything.Of course, but how would you get rid of him? And whom would you use to replace him?
It's not your business to deal with that unless its become obvious that the Venezuelans as a people want him gone and are incapable of doing it on their own. And it's impossible to really find out when that situation comes about.

Well, I don't live in the USA, thus we're not exposed to as much spin as they are. I watch American news, yes, but that is not what I count on for the "facts" And it's not "rich" if the shoe fits, well, you know the rest.
I mean it was hypocritical for you to say that "all we must do is look at the facts" when you initial post was pretty much pure spin and very biased commentary.

South America is mostly noted for its large Spanish-speaking Catholic population...so where does the export of islamic fundamentalism come in? What's he trying to say, that Chavez is going to import jobless Saudis and send them across the Mexican border? :confused:

yup. it's a new opec initiative.

It's not your business to deal with that

That is correct. That can't be stressed enough. It's no one's business except Venezuela's. There is not one good reason to take him out. He rigs elections? DieBold, Katherine Harris, I could go on. He uses cruel and unusual punishment? Gitmo, Abu Ghraib prison, the USA still sentences children to the death penalty. Destabilizing the world? Give me a break! Venezuela just doesn't have that kind of power, unless the only important thing in the world anymore is oil! People who live in glass houses should not throw stones!

Don't bother. This is just another thread started, not to skim through the most notable headlines in the news today, but to bash the US.... its president, its policies, its people, its economy, its religions, its governmental system, its political makeup, its everything and anything that Steph can take, slant, and throw out there as further proof that the US is far inferior to Canada or any other nation in the world. <yawn>

That's an excellent point. It really is transparent. If it was deliberate, it might be impressive how the thread's author can take a kooky statement about Venezuela's President by a nobody and somehow twist the subject matter around to rant about homosexual parenting, the war in Iraq, and Bush bashing. What's the correlation?

I mean it was hypocritical for you to say that "all we must do is look at the facts" when you initial post was pretty much pure spin and very biased commentary.

Well, I base my opinion on the facts, or at least I try to. But then again, I'm not a journalist nor do I claim to be, I'm just another person on an Internet forum giving my opinion, on the facts as I believe them to be true.

Of course, but how would you get rid of him? And whom would you use to replace him?
I
t's not your business to deal with that unless its become obvious that the Venezuelans as a people want him gone and are incapable of doing it on their own. And it's impossible to really find out when that situation comes about.

The only problem is that Chavez is moving closer and closer to dictatorship, and so it will be increasingly difficult to even run against him. Democracy works where it is properly upheld and its protections enforced, and that isn't happening in Venezuela.

The wishes of the people won't really matter to him once he's solidified his power. Personally, I think his wave of public spending (which has done good for Venezuela, I admit) is only meant to make the nation dependent on his regime and it will dry up when his rule is secured. We have to get more international oversight and more pressure on his anti-democratic activities or we wont be able to do anything. Plus, his activities with Iran could be very dangerous in multiple areas, depending on his motives .

We cannot pull another 1980s style coup where we just switch an anti-American despot with another. This change has to be democratic and it has to be legit.

What I find most confusing is the 'islamic extremist' remark...

South America is mostly noted for its large Spanish-speaking Catholic population...so where does the export of islamic fundamentalism come in? What's he trying to say, that Chavez is going to import jobless Saudis and send them across the Mexican border? :confused:
That probably has to do with Chavez endorsing the Iranian nuclear program. Not a nice move, but not necessarily islamic extremism.

What's the correlation?

There was none. I just took what jumped out at me in the headlines today and went with it, the obscure and quite frankly bizarre news. I find it at times much more fun than the "serious" stuff. I can't be serious ALL the time, that would be plain boring. ;)

Oh, I think you did, you're just playing the game of semantics now.





No back peddling required. I said that if Bush says it, then it is fact that he said it, not that it is fact. You misread me, or I will admit it's possible I didn't make myself clear enough for you. But you know exactly what I'm saying Corneliu... and you know I know you do. ;)

Steph,

I've got you on this one so I'm not going to buy whatever your spouting today. You madam really need to watch what you say because it'll be considered factual when infact, it isn't.

That probably has to do with Chavez endorsing the Iranian nuclear program. Not a nice move, but not necessarily islamic extremism.
In other words, he's a dumbass who can't even express himself, let alone know what he's talking about. ;)

That's an excellent point. It really is transparent. If it was deliberate, it might be impressive how the thread's author can take a kooky statement about Venezuela's President by a nobody and somehow twist the subject matter around to rant about homosexual parenting, the war in Iraq, and Bush bashing. What's the correlation?

None that I can see. She has an annoying habit of doing this however. :D

The only problem is that Chavez is moving closer and closer to dictatorship, and so it will be increasingly difficult to even run against him. Democracy works where it is properly upheld and its protections enforced, and that isn't happening in Venezuela.

The wishes of the people won't really matter to him once he's solidified his power. Personally, I think his wave of public spending (which has done good for Venezuela, I admit) is only meant to make the nation dependent on his regime and it will dry up when his rule is secured. We have to get more international oversight and more pressure on his anti-democratic activities or we wont be able to do anything. Plus, his activities with Iran could be very dangerous in multiple areas, depending on his motives .

We cannot pull another 1980s style coup where we just switch an anti-American despot with another. This change has to be democratic and it has to be legit.We can't pull off another 9/11 1973 and replace a democratically elected leader with someone that isn't either. It's not possible to run around choosing for people how they should be ruled.

Steph,

I've got you on this one so I'm not going to buy whatever your spouting today. You madam really need to watch what you say because it'll be considered factual when infact, it isn't.

You have me on what? LMAO!

You simply misunderstood what I was saying.. silly. :p

The only problem is that Chavez is moving closer and closer to dictatorship, and so it will be increasingly difficult to even run against him. Democracy works where it is properly upheld and its protections enforced, and that isn't happening in Venezuela.

The wishes of the people won't really matter to him once he's solidified his power. Personally, I think his wave of public spending (which has done good for Venezuela, I admit) is only meant to make the nation dependent on his regime and it will dry up when his rule is secured. We have to get more international oversight and more pressure on his anti-democratic activities or we wont be able to do anything. Plus, his activities with Iran could be very dangerous in multiple areas, depending on his motives .

We cannot pull another 1980s style coup where we just switch an anti-American despot with another. This change has to be democratic and it has to be legit.

I wonder why they elect Chavez in the first place. He was responsible for a failed coup of a twice-democratically-elected president of Venezuela in 1992. I would have a very difficult time voting for a former military lieutenant who once attempted to sieze control of the nation through a coup.

None that I can see. She has an annoying habit of doing this however. :D

Oh Corneliu, don't be bitter just because we pawn you in 99.9% of all your arguments.. ;)

Oh Corneliu, don't be bitter just because we pawn you in 99.9% of all your arguments.. ;)

Actually you dont own (nor do you pawn) me on anything. I have my own opinions based on the facts that I have. Facts are a relative term you know. What constitutes a fact and what constitutes fiction?

We can't pull off another 9/11 1973 and replace a democratically elected leader with someone that isn't either. It's not possible to run around choosing for people how they should be ruled.

That's why we have to put pressure on him for repressing democracy rather than putting in puppets be they democratically elected or not. I generally don't care what their leader's position is in their own country, but when that leader is destabilizing his region, working with terrorist states like Iran, and repressing democracy, there's a problem. We need to restore democracy in Venezuela, or it will become yet another South American dictatorship. The people need to choose their leaders freely and fairly, and Chavez isn't allowing that.

I wonder why they elect Chavez in the first place. He was responsible for a failed coup of a twice-democratically-elected president of Venezuela in 1992. I would have a very difficult time voting for a former military lieutenant who once attempted to sieze control of the nation through a coup.

He rigged the elections and terrorized opponents and their supporters. He is turning a civilian democracy in to a dictatorship, and the world can't allow that, especially when it is clear he has no qualms about working with rogue states like Iran. Let the people decide, that's all that is needed to change Venezuela.

Well, I base my opinion on the facts, or at least I try to. But then again, I'm not a journalist nor do I claim to be, I'm just another person on an Internet forum giving my opinion, on the facts as I believe them to be true.
Looks like I'll have to drag out the quotes again:

protecting the slippery slope to legitimizing gay marriage is, in fact, more important than actually protecting those very same children that they claim to so care about.
This conservative group never said or even implied that they don't care about protecting children. You just made that up entirely in order to vilify them.

I thought that after the WMD and ties to terror BS had been disproved it was all about liberating an oppressed people? Liberating them from what? Secularism and equality in a country un- ravaged by daily car bombings
Hussein's Iraq war not a place of secularism or equality, except perhaps by Iran's standards. Saddam had laws in place that Pat Robertson only dreams about, such as illegal homosexuality and such. The Ba'ath party were a class above the regular Iraqi proles. It was often even necessary to join the party to have some jobs. The Hussein family enjoyed life as a virtual royal family, living off the money that rightfully should have been distributed among the proles.

He also goes a step further and blames water Damn that H2O.
And of course the attempt to prove that Bush is "stupid". He wasn't blaming water for America's problems.

So in conclusion, despite your talk about getting rid of the spin and looking at the facts, you actually do the exact opposite. You're just another partisan hack on these forums. You and Corneliu deserve each other.

Actually you dont own (nor do you pawn) me on anything. I have my own opinions based on the facts that I have. Facts are a relative term you know. What constitutes a fact and what constitutes fiction?

Yet in this entire thread, you have yet to provide anything to back any of your statements up. You can't run around, saying "This is fact" and expect people to fully believe you. For all I know, those 'facts' are still your opinions, and your accusations against Stephistan are invalid. Prove yourself.

I'd like to see link to this so-called repression of democracy by Chavez.
So far, you've used this to paint him in a bad light. I'd like you to back up that claim with sources because that's not just what I read in the newspapers around here.

I wonder why they elect Chavez in the first place. He was responsible for a failed coup of a twice-democratically-elected president of Venezuela in 1992. I would have a very difficult time voting for a former military lieutenant who once attempted to sieze control of the nation through a coup.Half the country is up in arms against him. I mean, who would elect someone that lies and why would the rest of the country let him take office? :D

And of course the attempt to prove that Bush is "stupid". He wasn't blaming water for America's problems.


I'm not 100% sure, but I do believe that it was meant to be taken as a joke...

Half the country is up in arms against him. I mean, who would elect someone that lies and why would the rest of the country let him take office? :D

Yes, what kind of country would allow something as heinous as that? ;)

Hussein's Iraq war not a place of secularism or equality, except perhaps by Iran's standards. Saddam had laws in place that Pat Robertson only dreams about, such as illegal homosexuality and such. The Ba'ath party were a class above the regular Iraqi proles. It was often even necessary to join the party to have some jobs. The Hussein family enjoyed life as a virtual royal family, living off the money that rightfully should have been distributed among the proles.Ulbricht had laws in place that Pat Robertson only dreams about, such as illegal homosexuality and such. The SED were a class above the regular East German proles. It was usually necessary to join the party to have some jobs or study. The upper party members enjoyed life as a virtual royal family, living off the money that rightfully should have been distributed among the proles.

Are you calling the GDR religious too? I mean, based on the little information you've given us, I doubt that Iraq can be considered any more Islamic than an atheist, religion persecuting communist state...

That's why we have to put pressure on him for repressing democracy rather than putting in puppets be they democratically elected or not. I generally don't care what their leader's position is in their own country, but when that leader is destabilizing his region, working with terrorist states like Iran, and repressing democracy, there's a problem. We need to restore democracy in Venezuela, or it will become yet another South American dictatorship. The people need to choose their leaders freely and fairly, and Chavez isn't allowing that.The situation in Belarus is worse and I hear nothing about it from Patty or so.

Oh Corneliu, don't be bitter just because we pawn you in 99.9% of all your arguments.. ;)
Back when you were a mod you were such a reasonable debator, now you have become just another joker. You play games endlessly, interspersed by some partisan hackery. Hardly more than a troll, really.

The situation in Belarus is worse and I hear nothing about it from Patty or so.

Belarus doesn't have oil; good old Patty doesn't care about their rights or suffering under dictatorship except when the US can profit off of their country's natural resources. I support the same actions in any country suffering under tyranny, because democracy is the political system that works best and is best for its people.

Pat Robertson is a disgrace to his purported faith.

Back when you were a mod you were such a reasonable debator, now you have become just another joker. You play games endlessly, interspersed by some partisan hackery. Hardly more than a troll, really.

But tell us how you really feel?

I'd like to see link to this so-called repression of democracy by Chavez.
So far, you've used this to paint him in a bad light. I'd like you to back up that claim with sources because that's not just what I read in the newspapers around here.

Agreed.

On democratic elections in Venezuela:

Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter led a team of international observers from The Carter Center during the Aug. 15 presidential recall referendum in Venezuela, when citizens voted on the recall of President Hugo Chavez. The Center previously observed the reparos--or signature verification correction periods; the signature collection; and the signature verification process.

On Aug. 27, Venezuelan electoral authorities confirmed President Hugo Chavez's victory in the referendum. Though there were accusations of fraud by the opposition, the final official results totaled 59.25 percent for Chavez, 40.74 percent against. The Carter Center participated in an audit of the votes (see final report above) and concluded the results were accurate.

http://www.cartercenter.org/doc1690.htm

How the US supports democracy in Venezuela:

Chavez often accuses Washington of backing his political enemies, and in fact, the U.S. government's National Endowment for Democracy has funneled $1 million in the last year to groups linked to the opposition. Washington also publicly welcomed the 2002 coup that briefly unseated Chavez, saying he'd gotten what he deserved.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/elections/venezuela/

While Chavez did lead a coup in 1992, it was unsuccessful. He turned to politics, and 6 years later, in 1998, he won the presidential election by the largest percent of voters (56.2%) in four decades with an anti-corruption and anti-poverty platform. Since then there has been a lot of polarization, mostly along class lines. The rich tend to dislike him, the poor love him.

Wikipedia actually has a pretty good article about him. He's no saint, but he has been democratically elected and retains a high level of popular support -- some recent polls claim up to 70% of Venezuelans would vote for him again.
Mind you, I don't believe that the results of political polls in Canada are accurate, and I don't believe that number either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Chavez

What are the "errors" Chavez is committing? Is it nationalizing the oil reserves and using the revenue to create universities that don't charge a tuition fee? Is it litteracy programs for the poor? Is it selling oil to Cuba at preferencial prices in exchange for doctors who treat the poor free of charge and train Venezuelan students to practice medicine? Is it trying to improve economic relations with Arab nations?

Good one on stating the misrepresentations. How about this for you: Wiping out the entire middle class and sending 65% of the country below the poverty line? Wiping out national reserves? Ruining the country's credit rating? Destroying the health system? Ruining any bipartisan atmosphere there could of been in the country? THat's fucking Chavez for you. You focus on things Chavez said he has done... but you don't look at the facts. Chavez has seriously fucked up his country, and the economy.

Good one on stating the misrepresentations. How about this for you: Wiping out the entire middle class and sending 65% of the country below the poverty line? Wiping out national reserves? Ruining the country's credit rating? Destroying the health system? Ruining any bipartisan atmosphere there could of been in the country? THat's fucking Chavez for you. You focus on things Chavez said he has done... but you don't look at the facts. Chavez has seriously fucked up his country, and the economy.

It would be great if either you or Oye-Oye could back up your conflicting statements with some nice links.

Ruining any bipartisan atmosphere there could of been in the country?And what, pray tell is good about a bipartisan atmosphere? (And far as I know, any decision-making process for or against Chavez is accompanied by throngs of protesters from either side. That sound's pretty bipartisan to me...)

But tell us how you really feel?
Well, doctor, Steph just doesn't satisfy me any more. ;)

Well, doctor, Steph just doesn't satisfy me any more. ;)

:D

Well, doctor, Steph just doesn't satisfy me any more. ;)I'm still waiting for you to tell me why Saddam's Iraq is different from the GDR... :rolleyes:

It would be great if either you or Oye-Oye could back up your conflicting statements with some nice links.

With pleasure.

Chavez Gives Land Titles to the Indigenous By THAIS LEON

KARI'NA LA ISLA, Venezuela (AP) - Six of Venezuela's indigenous communities received title to their ancestral lands on Tuesday in a ceremony that Venezuela's president said reversed centuries of injustice.

President Hugo Chavez said he hoped the government would be able to turn over titles to 15 other indigenous communities by the end of the year.

``What we're recognizing is the original ownership of these lands,'' Chavez said during the ceremony. ``Now no one will be able to come and trample over you in the future.''
…One woman from the Kari'na community thanked Chavez, saying: ``He has been the first president who has kept his word to a people who have been stripped of their lands.''
An estimated 300,000 Venezuelans belong to 28 indigenous groups, many living in the country's sparsely populated southeast. http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-1102&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20050809%2F2203173845.htm&sc=1102


Venezuela's government is offering free schooling to thousands of students in a program that aims to revolutionize higher education in the country… "We train our students ideologically and politically," said Yamileth Uzcategui Gonzalez, coordinator of political and government studies. "To tell the truth, every university trains ideologically."
She said Venezuela's traditional universities promote personal advancement and wealth, while Bolivarian focuses on "collective success." …Many students are poor or lower middle class. Most say they never could have afforded a university education without the program.
"I feel thankful to President Chavez," said Adelso Aranda, 30, a legal studies major whose father is a taxi driver. "It opens up many possibilities for the future."http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/world/12246816.htm

And of course, from a link you have already provided.

Venezuela under Chávez has started numerous social programs: Barrio Adentro, an initiative to provide free health care to poor and underserved areas, Mission Robinson and Mission Sucre to increase literacy and basic education. The literacy programs are centered on learning to read, and understand the Venezuelan Constitution and their inherent rights as Venezuelan citizens. These programs have been criticized as inefficient and incomplete by opposition figures but are widely heralded and appreciated by Chávez backers and by many international observers, including the World Health Organization.
Many of these programs involve importing expertise from abroad; Venezuela is providing Cuba with 53,000 barrels (8,000 m³) of below-market-rate oil a day in exchange for the service of hundreds of physicians, teachers, and other professionals. (BBC)
Oil profits -- about 25 billion dollars in 2004 -- allowed Mr. Chávez to carry out what he calls a "new socialist revolution." The leftist platform includes massive social spending. Hugo Chávez has built free health care clinics, subsidized food and created small manufacturing cooperatives. Political scientist Michael Shifter says these projects have galvanized his core supporters -- the poor -- who make-up around 60 percent of the country's population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Chavez

It really sucks when you bring sources into a debate and nobody cares, doesn't it? ;)

It really sucks when you bring sources into a debate and nobody cares, doesn't it? ;)

What really sucks is that sooner or later, some one else is going to demand I produce them again.

What really sucks is that sooner or later, some one else is going to demand I produce them again.I suggest having the link to your post handy. It's something I do a lot when I'm sick of explaining things over again...

With pleasure.

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-1102&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20050809%2F2203173845.htm&sc=1102


http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/world/12246816.htm

And of course, from a link you have already provided.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Chavez

Huh? where the hell is the counter evidence to my economic argument?

Oh when the country is going bankrupt, far fetched education plans may look nice on paper.. but if there is no funding for them, forget it. They won't work.

Huh? where the hell is the counter evidence to my economic argument?

Oh when the country is going bankrupt, far fetched education plans may look nice on paper.. but if there is no funding for them, forget it. They won't work.

Oh well then, please allow me to produce some links that say how well the economy is doing. You, on the other hand, produced no links whatsoever to say how poorly the Venezuelan economy is doing, other than to state your opinion.

Venezuelan economy grew 17% in 2004:
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1512

UPDATE 2-Venezuela's economy grew 11.1 pct in 2nd quarter (2005)
http://today.reuters.com/investing/financeArticle.aspx?type=economicNews&storyID=2005-08-18T210502Z_01_N18184649_RTRIDST_0_ECONOMY-VENEZUELA-GDP-UPDATE-2.XML

Wikipedia has an excellent discussion of the Venezuelan economy as a whole, noting both the highs and the lows, with attempts at indepth analysis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela


At least Oye-Oye used links to back up his own statements, which had little to do with your economic statements.