NationStates Jolt Archive

I don't consider Lyric a source. A source is something I can quote as having strong or direct relation with facts.

I naturally have more credibility because I happen to use sources.

Yeah....BIASED SOURCES!!
And, no...you have only what credibility others wish to give to you...not what you claim for yourself. That is the very DEFINITION of credibility.

And, you, too, have now engaged in making comparisons involving another NS player who, at the time...was not even a part of the discussion.

Consider YOURSELF warned, too.

I will not put up with bullshit...I don't care WHAT the source of the bullshit is...or what the political ideology of the bullshit is, either.

Any more bullshit, and it's MOD TIME.

I was there till I finished high school.. let me get more specific. I'm 20, and lived in Latin America until I was 18 (I celebrated my 18th birthday there [living in Argentina]). I left two weeks after to California. Actually, not 6 years.. 5 years... 2 years in Ecuador and 3 in Argentina. Sorry about that. I do have plenty of knowledge about Latin America because it was a required topic in the schools I went to (both political and economic aspects). So what if I'm young.. It doesn't mean i'm stupid.

You're such a jerk.
Well, call me a jerk if you wish, but I do find it interesting that you're touting superior authority and analytical capacity vis-a-vis Latin American geopolitics rather haughtily over the head of Oye Oye who actively does live in Latin America and has done his or her entire life, on the basis of high-school level studies taken (presumably from the math you've provided) from age 13 onward?

I'll choose to believe what Oye Oye has to say over what you have to say in these matters.

I've been to Quito myself, and Quito is not Colombia. Where have you been to in Colombia and when? Having been to Colombia I'll assume you are aware of how easy it is for someone to "dissappear". Being to Colombia you should know how much of the landscape is covered by jungle and mountains. And knowing a little about what is going on in colombia, as you claim to do, you should know that the majority of the violence is taking place in the country side, where bodies are not always accounted for.

I didn't say it was (notice how I had Quito, Ecuador). I know you have issues in reading comprehension, but I didn't think it was that bad. By the way, I've been to Brazil too. I know crime when I see it. So don't paint me as ignorant.

Also a primary difference: I post facts, and you don't.

Lyric, you're not a moderator.

Well, call me a jerk if you wish, but I do find it interesting that you're touting superior authority and analytical capacity vis-a-vis Latin American geopolitics rather haughtily over the head of Oye Oye who actively does live in Latin America and has done his or her entire life, on the basis of high-school level studies taken (presumably from the math you've provided) from age 13 onward?

I'll choose to believe what Oye Oye has to say over what you have to say in these matters.

Oye Oye has issues with recognizing sources I post. I don't know why he/she does not recognize these figures... and I've also taken university level courses on Latin America (including Anthropology 108: Latin American Studies and Chicano Studies [more US based, but Latin America was a topic drawn heavily into class]).

You choose to believe someone who fits your political views.. you don't choose to believe someone who presents a superior amount of facts and figures.

You're such a jerk.

Wow, you don't like anybody.

Mr Robertson like many other public speakers exceeds himself when he discusses certain issues and there probably isn't one single issue that I agree with him on.

What are gringos?

In case no one answered this, I will.

"Gringo" is what Hispanic folks call white folk, as a racial epithet. It's the equivalent of an African-American calling Caucasians "whitey" or "honky."

The feminine form is "Gringa." I lived in Texas, many was the time I was called a "gringa."

You choose to believe someone who fits your political views.. you don't choose to believe someone who presents a superior amount of facts and figures.
I'll believe experience over a textbook anyday, chum. I live in the real world - school's been out a long time ago for me.

Sorry for the comments, Lyric. I really should have known better :(

I'll believe experience over a textbook anyday, chum. I live in the real world - school's been out a long time ago for me.

I live in the real world too. You are just believeing someone who will fit your own political views... you don't actually believe the reality.

He's always been a bit sketchy. That MSNBC article someone linked to--somewhere beyond the pissing match currently going on in this thread--reminded me that Robertson once suggested blowing up the State Department, that he actively prayed for an opening on the Supreme Court (and the implication, since the Court is a lifetime appointment, is...), and of course, his post 9/11 remarks with Falwell about how the gays and the liberals and the ACLU brought the attacks upon us because the US is a godless nation--to quote James Carville, "I wouldn't piss down his throat if his heart was on fire." (Carville was talking about Nader, though.)

Goddamn you, Nazz!! I had a mouthful of soda when I read that!!
now I gotta go get a towel and wipe off my computer monitor, and my nose burns!!

Wow, you don't like anybody.
Trust me on this one - it's mutual.

Trust me on this one - it's mutual.

No. I like plenty of people here... I talk with some people here on AIM.. some like Dobbs don't really want to recognize reality.. I don't really like him.

Goddamn you, Nazz!! I had a mouthful of soda when I read that!!
now I gotta go get a towel and wipe off my computer monitor, and my nose burns!!But that isn't Nazz's fault, is it? :D

I didn't say it was (notice how I had Quito, Ecuador). I know you have issues in reading comprehension, but I didn't think it was that bad. By the way, I've been to Brazil too. I know crime when I see it. So don't paint me as ignorant.

Also a primary difference: I post facts, and you don't.

Lyric, you're not a moderator.

Very well, post one more fact for me then, Where and when did you live in Colombia?

Very well, post one more fact for me then, Where and when did you live in Colombia?

Can you read my posts? Please look at my post again. I said I have visited Colombia on more then a dozen times...

I still provided facts, and you didn't.

Bush isn't doing any of that, except for the deficits (which I absolutely despise him for. Big Government conservative...absolutely terrifying). Our economy isn't poorly off and is creating jobs, and wages are performing comparable to Clinton's at this point in Bush's term.

NOMINAL wages, yes. But in terms of ACTUAL BUYING POWER...we are WAY BEHIND where we were under Clinton.

Goddamn you, Nazz!! I had a mouthful of soda when I read that!!
now I gotta go get a towel and wipe off my computer monitor, and my nose burns!!
Sorry about that--I don't like much about Carville, basically because he's a hack and he'd sell my priorities out in a second to win an election, but the man does know how to turn a phrase.

Very well, post one more fact for me then, Where and when did you live in Colombia?instead of him posting his credentials, how about yours.
I will look for sources, but you must understand, Colombia is a nation at war. In order for a crime to appear on a statistic it must be reported. This is difficult to do if it is a police man is the one committing the crime. I speak from experience.
what experience do you have about this "Nation at War" and where are your statistics and proof?

I will not put up with bullshit...I don't care WHAT the source of the bullshit is...or what the political ideology of the bullshit is, either.

Any more bullshit, and it's MOD TIME.

Using us as a weapon is against the rules, Lyric.

Mods as a Weapon: Threatening another nation with moderation action if they don't do "action" is not allowed. Representing yourself as a moderator is considered impersonation, and is not allowed. Reporting rule-breakers through the Getting Help page or the Moderation forum is not only allowed, but encouraged. Doing so maliciously or spamming Moderation with questionable requests may invoke a penalty, at the Mod's discretion.

Don't do it again. We don't appreciate it.

Oye Oye has issues with recognizing sources I post.

Correct. Mainly because Colombia is a country at war and it is very difficult to collate statistical information in the middle of a war.

I don't know why he/she does not recognize these figures... and I've also taken university level courses on Latin America (including Anthropology 108: Latin American Studies and Chicano Studies [more US based, but Latin America was a topic drawn heavily into class]).

Chicano studies?... Lol

You choose to believe someone who fits your political views.. you don't choose to believe someone who presents a superior amount of facts and figures.

I think it's more a case of you disagreeing with anyone and everyone with something intelligent to say.

P.S. Quantity does not = Quality.

:headbang:

The Bush adminstration has swiftly distanced itself from Robertson and, inturned criticized and rejected the remarks.

Sure....publically. What else could Bush do? He's dumb, but he isn't THAT dumb! I'm quite sure that privately, Bush agrees with Robertson. Just as I'm sure that privately, Bush agreed with Robertson's 9/11 comments, blaming the terrorist attacks on the usual targets of his bile. Bush also publically rebuked Robertson for those comments...he couldn't do anything else and survive it, politically.

But Bush's actions, words, and policies, as well as his agenda and goals...leads me to the only possible conclusion I can come to. And that is...while Bush publically disparages such remarks as Robertson made...privately he agrees with them.

Bush's heart, if he even has one, is most definitely black.

Correct. Mainly because Colombia is a country at war and it is very difficult to collate statistical information in the middle of a war.

Very nice dodge.



Chicano studies?... Lol

??

Latin America was often discussed in the class and I had to do a presentation on a nation (I picked Colombia).

I think it's more a case of you disagreeing with anyone and everyone with something intelligent to say.

P.S. Quantity does not = Quality.

Umm, this goes to you. I have provided a strong quality argument, and... you have not. You have not provided any good sources (wait.. looking back.. you have provided none when it comes to the economic/security argument I presented).

I'm putting you on block right now, lyric.

Using us as a weapon is against the rules, Lyric.Not only that. It's also childish. Despite Mesatecala's serious recurrent netiquette issues it shouldn't be done.


There he goes again blocking people... grow up Mesatecala. Is it so hard for you to deal with different opinions?

Bush's heart, if he even has one, is most definitely black.I'm not sure what colour it is. But I'm quite positive it's the same size, shape and colour of the PNAC's heart.

Wow, you don't like anybody.
No...he likes people who AGREE with him. He just doesn't like anyone who doesn't agree with him.

I know, I know...pot, kettle, black...(at least I'm woman enough to point that finger at myself so that no one else has to!!)

No...he likes people who AGREE with him. He just doesn't like anyone who doesn't agree with him.


That's funny. And false. I work with people I disagree with, and I have friends I disagree wtih.

And that's it with your posts.. I have now put you on block.

Sorry for the comments, Lyric. I really should have known better :(

Apology accepted. Please do not do it again.

No...he likes people who AGREE with him. He just doesn't like anyone who doesn't agree with him.Adolf Hitler was like that. That's the second time I've pointed out this caracteristic in Mestecala. There goes godwin's law again. :D

I know, I know...pot, kettle, black...(at least I'm woman enough to point that finger at myself so that no one else has to!!)Awareness is the first step to change. It's a good quality. :)

But that isn't Nazz's fault, is it? :D
No, not really. :D

And that's it with your posts.. I have now put you on block.You've lied about that before.

[QUOTE]Very nice dodge.

No dodge, it's the truth. But I'm still curious to find out where you were in Colombia, since you've been there on so many occasionas perhaps you can tell me a bit about your travels.

??

Latin America was often discussed in the class and I had to do a presentation on a nation (I picked Colombia).

Ay por Dios.

Umm, this goes to you. I have provided a strong quality argument, and... you have not. You have not provided any good sources (wait.. looking back.. you have provided none when it comes to the economic/security argument I presented).

I have provided you with sources, and if I had a scanner I would provide you with photographs of shanty towns that surround the cities of Cali and Bogota. Uribe has done nothing but line his own pockets while waging a war that displaces hundreds of thousands. Your numbers are just numbers made up to promote a political agenda. You have a graph that charts the number of alternative crops planted under plan Colombia, but does this account for the number of legitimate crops that are destroyed by the fumigation?

That's funny. And false. I work with people I disagree with, and I have friends I disagree wtih.

And that's it with your posts.. I have now put you on block.Ooooh he's got you now Lyric....the forum version of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "LaLaLaLaLaLaLa...." :rolleyes:

I have provided you with sources, and if I had a scanner I would provide you with photographs of shanty towns that surround the cities of Cali and Bogota. Uribe has done nothing but line his own pockets while waging a war that displaces hundreds of thousands. Your numbers are just numbers made up to promote a political agenda. You have a graph that charts the number of alternative crops planted under plan Colombia, but does this account for the number of legitimate crops that are destroyed by the fumigation?

I've seen shanty towns. They have been there for a very long time. Uribe has done a lot in helping bring jobs (1.2 million jobs have been created in the country). And a lot less people have been displaced. The country is stabliizing. You did not pay attention to the facts. Look at all the charts, they are simple enough.l

Oye Oye don't you just hate when someone from another country claims to be an expert on your country where you've lived for many years? Particularly when it involves school projects? :D

I for one live in Portugal. Help! The nation is on fire.

Using us as a weapon is against the rules, Lyric.



Don't do it again. We don't appreciate it.
In all fairness, I think Lyric was threatening to report them to the mods, not threaten them with mod action. The wording was clumsy, but I think the intention wasn't in violation of the rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesatecala
I didn't say it was (notice how I had Quito, Ecuador). I know you have issues in reading comprehension, but I didn't think it was that bad. By the way, I've been to Brazil too. I know crime when I see it. So don't paint me as ignorant.

Also a primary difference: I post facts, and you don't.

Lyric, you're not a moderator.


And when, pray tell, did I ever say, or imply...that I was??
Hell, they'd never have the likes of ME being a Mod! come on, i'm FAR too emotional (and biased) to be a good Mod, and anyone with access to my personality would know this!

When I tell someone "consider yourself warned" that is because I ALWAYS give someone one warning, before running to Mods, regarding flaming, flamebaiting, or otherwise rule-breaking.

I gave you a free warning, and what that means is...if you engage in that behavior again, do not expect a free pass from me. I will go to Mods the next time you engage in such activity.

I give EVERYONE one free pass, because I really do not desire to create trouble for anyone...nor do I really have a desire to ask a Mod to fight my battles for me.

While I might rant and carry on and get quite emotional....I generally DO know where the line is drawn regarding the rules, and I do obey them. I expect others to do the same when engaging in discourse with me.

Personally I would prefer to let democracy take it's course as Venezuela is on course to hold elections.

Voting is the better method. Although popular uprisings in voting is still a popular uprising. Although would you be suprised if there were cries of voter fraud in a Venezuela election? I have an idea it wouldnt be much different than the first Ukrainian election. Thus spurring the orange revolution. Maybe same thing will happen in Venezuela.

Sorry about that--I don't like much about Carville, basically because he's a hack and he'd sell my priorities out in a second to win an election, but the man does know how to turn a phrase.
Indeed so. On all counts. And don't worry, I've recovered now from being snarfed.
It's just I never heard that quote before, and I thought it was hilarious!

Oye Oye don't you just hate when someone from another country claims to be an expert on your country where you've lived for many years? Particularly when it involves school projects? :D

I for one live in Portugal. Help! The nation is on fire.
Meh, it happens all the time, doesn't it?
As for Portugal, we're having FLOODING in southern Germany, and the Swiss and Austrians are getting their fair share too. Ironic, isn't it?

Voting is the better method. Although popular uprisings in voting is still a popular uprising. Although would you be suprised if there were cries of voter fraud in a Venezuela election? I have an idea it wouldnt be much different than the first Ukrainian election. Thus spurring the orange revolution. Maybe same thing will happen in Venezuela.

Curing the referendum there were international observers that claimed there were no indications of vote fraud.

As popular as Chavez is with the majority I doubt he needs to fix the vote, but honestly I wouldn't put it past him as I don't really trust anyone.

<.< >.>

Oye Oye don't you just hate when someone from another country claims to be an expert on your country where you've lived for many years? Particularly when it involves school projects? :D

I for one live in Portugal. Help! The nation is on fire.

People have the right to voice there opinion and argue logically. I often argue with people from the U.S. about what is going on in their country even though I haven't been to the U.S. for many years. What I would appreciate is if Mes would tell me what parts of Colombia he has been to and to acknowledge that the statistics he is providing comes from sources that are designed to promote tourism and foreign investment. After all, we are talking about a government with a history of corruption. Why should people accept that the stats they are putting forward are accurate?

Oye Oye my understanding on Uribe is that he's been pretty strong in turning things around for Colombia. Correct me if I'm wrong.


He's a liberal democrat so really none of his success surprises me. :D

Well you guys don't surprise me... I know you well enough You are pretty unreasonable and very petty.. well, with that said go argue amongst yourselves. I'm going to bed.

Using us as a weapon is against the rules, Lyric.



Don't do it again. We don't appreciate it.
I apologize, then. I thought I was doing the offending party a courtesy by giving them one free pass. Instead of running to the Mods at the drop of a hat, like some folk I could mention (but won't!)

Voting is the better method. Although popular uprisings in voting is still a popular uprising. Although would you be suprised if there were cries of voter fraud in a Venezuela election? I have an idea it wouldnt be much different than the first Ukrainian election. Thus spurring the orange revolution. Maybe same thing will happen in Venezuela.Except that the Venezuelan government is likely to kill protesters. Or pro-Chavez thugs. :(

I'm putting you on block right now, lyric.

Thank you!

And good riddance.

I apologize, then. I thought I was doing the offending party a courtesy by giving them one free pass. Instead of running to the Mods at the drop of a hat, like some folk I could mention (but won't!)Well, I think he means the comment "It's MOD-TIME". There's probably no harm in wording that kind of "threat" right to make it a "warning".

Voting is the better method. Although popular uprisings in voting is still a popular uprising. Although would you be suprised if there were cries of voter fraud in a Venezuela election? I have an idea it wouldnt be much different than the first Ukrainian election. Thus spurring the orange revolution. Maybe same thing will happen in Venezuela.

It wouldn't surprise me that there were cries of fraud any less than the cries of fraud in the 2000 U.S. election surprised me. ;)

Except that the Venezuelan government is likely to kill protesters. Or pro-Chavez thugs. :(


Well than that will be all over international television. Then maybe some type of action will be condoned by the OAS or the UN. What kind of action? Remains to be seen if it were the case.

Meh, it happens all the time, doesn't it?
As for Portugal, we're having FLOODING in southern Germany, and the Swiss and Austrians are getting their fair share too. Ironic, isn't it?Oh yeah. My sister just came back from a trip to Hungary. A three day three night bus trip. THey where followed by heavy rain right through Austria, Switzerland and most of Europe. THey managed to outrace the floods. Spooky stuff.

I'm going to bed.I'm not. It's not worth it anymore :D
(I'm on CET, btw)

Well than that will be all over international television. Then maybe some type of action will be condoned by the OAS or the UN. What kind of action? Remains to be seen if it were the case.Will it? These are the stories I'm getting from people that did their semester abroad in Latin America or who come from there. There's killing going on in that part of the world right now. It's downright dangerous to be a human rights activist, such as ai members.

In all fairness, I think Lyric was threatening to report them to the mods, not threaten them with mod action. The wording was clumsy, but I think the intention wasn't in violation of the rules.

Not even quite that harsh. I genuinely believe in extending everyone a one-time pass, before running to Mods and creating trouble for someone.

While I rant, and carry on, and often get quite emotional...I DO respect other players, and do not cross the fine line between attacking the message/ideology...and attacking the messenger. I only ask for the same in those who would debate me. Attack my message and my ideology all you wish. but leave personal attacks out of it.

I believe in giving everyone one warning that their behavior is in violation of NS rules...before running right to a Mod.

THAT is what my intention is. To be treated respectfully, and to not go running to the Mods at the drop of a hat, and ask them to do my fighting for me.

My wording may well be clumsy, or perhaps someone misinterpreted my meaning, i'm not sure...but my warnings have always been meant as a courtesy to other NS players...I know how easy it is to get carried away.

I have never threatened Mod action, because I am not able to do that. I cannot control what Mods will or will not do. I have threatened to REPORT to Mods, postings that I felt were in violation of rules, yes....but never have I threatened Mod action, as I have no authority to do so.

My apologies if anyone has mistaken my free passes, intended as courtesies, in the wrong way.

Thank you!

And good riddance.
He's bluffing. He reads the posts anyway but ignores them. It's just his way of dealing with the fact he blows his top and loses his cool way to easily in any kind of debate. It doesn't even have to be a heated debate. So long as someone dissagrees that's all he needs to pop. If he aspires to have a political career I hope for his own sake that he changes his ways or he'll quickly become a political aberration. A politcian must often defend and peform his duties in situations that he feels are totally incorrect and that go against his beliefs, such as Colin Powell's actions in both the first Gulf War and the more recent War in Iraq.

Oye Oye my understanding on Uribe is that he's been pretty strong in turning things around for Colombia. Correct me if I'm wrong.


He's a liberal democrat so really none of his success surprises me. :D

He is a dissident Liberal who left his party in order to become head of an independent campaign. Playing the role of a politician he claimed that an all out war against the guerrillas was required to bring the guerrillas to the peace table. A lot of people supported this because his predecessor, Pastrana, failed to bring about a peaceful resolution. Pastrana's strategy was to offer a demilitarized zone to the guerrillas to demonstrate he was willing to compromise, however he was negotiating Plan Colombia with the U.S. at the same time and so the guerrillas figured he was going to screw them so the peace talks stalled.

A lot of people where pissed off about this, especially in the cities, because they felt Pastrana had given the guerrillas a big chunk of land and got nothing in return. Seeing this and realizing that Plan Colombia was already in the works, Uribe capitalised on the opportunity to promote himself as a war time President.

Suffice to say, his recent collaboration with Pastrana is evidence of his failure to achieve his goals.

Suffice to say, his recent collaboration with Pastrana is evidence of his failure to achieve his goals.

What failure? I provided figures and facts to show a sharp reduction in crime and abductions.

You keep ranting, yet you provide no evidence.

Ugh, I'm not supposed to be up this late, but you need to be called up on misrepresentations.

What failure? I provided figures and facts to show a sharp reduction in crime and abductions.

You keep ranting, yet you provide no evidence.

Ugh, I'm not supposed to be up this late, but you need to be called up on misrepresentations.

PANEL TO PROBE VENEZUELA BORDER VIOLENCE: Colombia and Venezuela agreed December 30 to form a commission to investigate fatal violence along the 1,400-mile border they share. In San Antonio del Táchira, a Venezuelan town across the border from the city of Cúcuta, Colombian hired gunmen killed six young people the weekend of December 27-28. And Colombian paramilitary groups killed seven Venezuelan National Guard troops in two December attacks on Venezuelan soil, according to officials in Caracas. Venezuela says the paramilitaries cross the border regularly as part of drug-smuggling activities. Colombian officials said the Venezuelan military violated the frontier during a December 26-27 gun battle with suspected gasoline smugglers in La Guajira, Colombia’s northernmost province. Colombian lawmaker Gustavo Petro of the Independent Democratic Pole (PDI) told Inter Press Service the paramilitaries “are operating all along the border, on the Venezuelan side and on the Colombian side, and it seems the only government units going after them is the Venezuelan one.” SOURCES: Agence France Presse, 12/24/03, 12/27/03; Associated Press, 12/29/03, 12/29/03; BBC, 12/28/03, 12/29/03, 12/30/03, 12/31/03; El Espectador, 12/29/03, 12/30/03, 1/2/04; El Tiempo, 12/27/03, 12/28/03, 12/29/03, 12/30/03, 1/1/04; Inter Press Service, 12/30/03; Latinnews Daily, 1/2/04; Miami Herald, 12/31/03; Reuters, 12/20/03, 12/29/03, 12/30/03.

I can show you the concentration camps. ie. Guantanamo

P.S. Shit seems to be the only thing you know about history. ;)

If you think Guantanamo Bay is similar to German concentration camps.......fucking hell, how stupid can you get?




"This is a story you will tell your grandchildren; and mightily bored they'll be."

Suffice to say, his recent collaboration with Pastrana is evidence of his failure to achieve his goals.I found your post very insightfull. The war against the guerilas is a very diffiicult one and it's solution will not be quick, or unilateral. It may take forever. Economically he's had some success from what I gather.

What failure?The fact that he has seeked help from the man he sharply criticised and defeated in an earlier election.

You keep ranting, yet you provide no evidence.
Ugh, I'm not supposed to be up this late, but you need to be called up on misrepresentations.Aren't you supposed to be in bed? :D

See pals... told you he was bluffing.

PANEL TO PROBE VENEZUELA BORDER VIOLENCE: Colombia and Venezuela agreed December 30 to form a commission to investigate fatal violence along the 1,400-mile border they share. In San Antonio del Táchira, a Venezuelan town across the border from the city of Cúcuta, Colombian hired gunmen killed six young people the weekend of December 27-28. And Colombian paramilitary groups killed seven Venezuelan National Guard troops in two December attacks on Venezuelan soil, according to officials in Caracas. Venezuela says the paramilitaries cross the border regularly as part of drug-smuggling activities. Colombian officials said the Venezuelan military violated the frontier during a December 26-27 gun battle with suspected gasoline smugglers in La Guajira, Colombia’s northernmost province. Colombian lawmaker Gustavo Petro of the Independent Democratic Pole (PDI) told Inter Press Service the paramilitaries “are operating all along the border, on the Venezuelan side and on the Colombian side, and it seems the only government units going after them is the Venezuelan one.” SOURCES: Agence France Presse, 12/24/03, 12/27/03; Associated Press, 12/29/03, 12/29/03; BBC, 12/28/03, 12/29/03, 12/30/03, 12/31/03; El Espectador, 12/29/03, 12/30/03, 1/2/04; El Tiempo, 12/27/03, 12/28/03, 12/29/03, 12/30/03, 1/1/04; Inter Press Service, 12/30/03; Latinnews Daily, 1/2/04; Miami Herald, 12/31/03; Reuters, 12/20/03, 12/29/03, 12/30/03.

You failed to provide any specific evidence to counter my points. You provided on a dispute with regards to Colombia/Venezuela that has been going on for years.

Nice try, mr irrelevant argument maker.

I can't sleep. :(

Aren't you supposed to be in bed? :D

See pals... told you he was bluffing.I just checked what time it is over in California: 21:38 or 9:38 PM... :D :D :D

I found your post very insightfull. The war against the guerilas is a very diffiicult one and it's solution will not be quick, or unilateral. It may take forever. Economically he's had some success from what I gather.

The fact that he has seeked help from the man he sharply criticised and defeated in an earlier election.

Aren't you supposed to be in bed? :D

See pals... told you he was bluffing.

He did not defeat Pastrana. In Colombia a president can only hold one consecutive term. However he and Pastrana are not the best of friends either. His attempt to make Pastrana into a political ally is to demonstrate to the U.S. government that he is creating a unified front between political spectrums. Kind of like Bush using Clinton to get the support of both Democrats and Republicans.

I just checked what time it is over in California: 21:38 or 9:38 PM... :D :D :D
That must be why he can't sleep.

Anyhow to get back on topic here... Pat Robertson is one of those people that manages to make me very proud of the fact that I managed to totally shed the religious faith that ran traditionally in my family, that I would have otherwise been stuck with for good.

I am a born again agnostic if you like. :D
Pesronally I think the only religion that has points and goals worth pursuing is Buddism.

That must be why she can't sleep.Mesa's a he...

For some reason I initially thought he was a she for confusing him with another user famous for her blind support for Bush. Now somewhere along the line I lost track of which was which... So I kept on referring to both as females. I figure I'd rather offend a man than a woman. :D

As for Bush... Personally I believe that anyone that actually voted for him (Bush) vs Al Gore must've suffered from some kind of intellectual insuficiency if you like, but that's another matter entirely...

You failed to provide any specific evidence to counter my points. You provided on a dispute with regards to Colombia/Venezuela that has been going on for years.

Nice try, mr irrelevant argument maker.

I can't sleep. :(

AI continued to document strong links between the security forces and paramilitaries. Despite a fall in certain indicators of political violence such as kidnappings and massacres, reports of extrajudicial executions carried out directly by the armed forces increased in 2004.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/colombia/document.do?id=ar&yr=2005

I think what you fail to realize is that your statistics are misleading because they only tell half of the story. Statistics coming out of Colombia are not reliable, because one fifth of the country is controlled by the guerrillas. Several towns and villages can fall under the control of the paramilitary at any time, and politicians have a tradition of corruption. Read Ingrid Betancourts "Memoires of a Presidential Candidate" and you will see how deep this corruption runs.

Government corruption is so common in Colombia that it did not come as a surprise when five U.S. advisors were arrested for smuggling cocaine.

As for Bush... Personally I believe that anyone that actually voted for him (Bush) vs Al Gore must've suffered from some kind of intellectual insuficiency if you like, but that's another matter entirely...My dad voted for Bush, and I wouldn't consider him stupid...
Anyway, Mesa is too young to have voted then, if he's 20 today.

You failed to provide any specific evidence to counter my points. You provided on a dispute with regards to Colombia/Venezuela that has been going on for years.

Nice try, mr irrelevant argument maker.

I can't sleep. :(


August 23, 2005
Rep. McGovern: The U.S. should change course
Here's an English translation of the op-ed that Rep. Jim McGovern (D-Massachusetts) published in the Colombian daily El Tiempo last Saturday.

El Tiempo, August 20, 2005

The U.S. Should Change Course in Colombia

U.S. Congressman James P. McGovern, Democratic Representative of Massachusetts

For the past few years, I have offered amendments in the U.S. House of Representatives to cut, limit or condition military aid to Colombia. My hope was never to walk away from Colombia, but to achieve a better balance in our failing strategy toward Colombia.

Colombia is not just the source of 90 percent of cocaine on U.S. streets. Many of your own people suffer from an intractable forty-year war with groups the State Department considers terrorists. Vast stretches of the national territory are totally ungoverned.

Yet Colombia was facing exactly the same set of challenges five years ago, when President Clinton signed into law "Plan Colombia." After five years and $4 billion, making Colombia the largest U.S. aid recipient outside the Middle East, little has changed.

This money has not paid for a balanced strategy. Eighty percent has gone to Colombia's military and police. For every four dollars spent on helicopters, guns and military trainers, only one has gone to feed millions of displaced families, to make a broken judicial system function, or to help people in neglected rural areas make a decent, legal living.

The results in the United States have also been depressing but predictable. Not only is cocaine just as cheap and plentiful here as it was in 2000, but last year saw no drop in the amount of coca being grown in Colombia.

While President Uribe deserves congratulations for reducing several measures of violence, such as kidnappings, guerrilla groups remain far from the negotiating table, territorial gains have been very few, forced displacement is increasing, and recent months have seen a spike in guerrilla attacks. Worse, for the past two years the United Nations has documented an increase in human rights violations by military personnel. Meanwhile, President Uribe's main step toward "peace" has been a likely deal with the paramilitaries that will allow them to pay brief sentences in luxurious jails despite having massacred thousands of innocent people, while avoiding extradition despite having sent tons of drugs to my country.

During his visit to Texas, President Uribe asked President Bush for additional funds to support this deal with the paramilitaries. He also asked for more military assistance and more planes to spray herbicides over coca-growing peasants.

Rather than more military aid, the United States instead should have offered more resources to help the Colombian government regain control of territory by utilizing all of the nation's resources - not just soldiers but courts, schools, clinics and roads, and funds for the necessary teachers, health care workers, legal experts and construction workers. The United States should help demobilize the paramilitaries, but only if we can be confident that the process does not leave mass murderers in charge of politically powerful criminal networks.

Our drug policy could do much more if we reduced demand by providing treatment for our own addicts, while carrying out a genuine effort to alleviate the economic desperation that pushes poor farmers into the coca and poppy trade in Colombia. Sadly, President Bush chose to follow the status quo of more military aid, despite continued impunty on key Colombian human rights cases.

I have visited some of the poorest, most conflictive corners of Colombia. And as member of the U.S. Congress, I want to support a policy for Colombia that promotes stability, justice, human rights and peace. For that to happen, both the Colombian government and the U.S. government must change course. Immediately.

My dad voted for Bush, and I wouldn't consider him stupid...
Anyway, Mesa is too young to have voted then, if he's 20 today.Perhaps an awfull gambler. :p

Mesa's a he...

Now, I thought Mesa was a SHE, also....because of a comment made to the effect that Bush was not Mesa's man, his(?) boyfirend was.

At any rate, Mesa, at one point, inferred he(?) had a boyfriend...so I assumed Mesa was female. Especially as a gay Republican is pretty fucking rare...though not unheard of. Yes, I have heard of The Log-Cabin Republicans. I don't claim to understand them, or what they think the Republican Party is gonna DO for them....but, they do exist.

Now, I thought Mesa was a SHE, also....because of a comment made to the effect that Bush was not Mesa's man, his(?) boyfirend was.

At any rate, Mesa, at one point, inferred he(?) had a boyfriend...so I assumed Mesa was female. Especially as a gay Republican is pretty fucking rare...though not unheard of. Yes, I have heard of The Log-Cabin Republicans. I don't claim to understand them, or what they think the Republican Party is gonna DO for them....but, they do exist.Check out his picture on the picture thread and you'll see I'm not lying.

Well I'm just checking up as I left my computer on and took a nap.. :/

First off, overall killings did not increase in Colombia in 2004 (that's something that has to be cleared up). And secondly, again... Oye oye, you arrogant.. you did not address my sources. I also do not take the words of some partisan governor. Lets face it: Murders and kidnappings are way down in Colombia... I think it is more of an issue of immaturity on your part and the fact that you cannot accept the fact that I posted correct economic figures.

I tell the full story with my sources. Your sources tell a story that is no longer the case. Uribe is cracking down on corruption and getting rid of the FARC and ELN. I feel that there needs to be more increases in the size of the Colombian military (at least an increase by an additional 20%).

Secondly, yes I'm a he. And I'm not a republican (again I'm not registered for any party). And I don't think you on the deranged left can do anything for us. Anybody who says I'm a she apparently doesn't read a lot of my posts, doesn't look at my signature and doesn't understand why I'm so strongly in support of gay rights.

Secondly, yes I'm a he. And I'm not a republican (again I'm not registered for any party). And I don't think you on the deranged left can do anything for us. Anybody who says I'm a she apparently doesn't read a lot of my posts, doesn't look at my signature and doesn't understand why I'm so strongly in support of gay rights.
Just a hint. I, for one, have signatures off. There's a good chance someone won't see it.

I believe this is appropriate.

http://www.idrewthis.org/2005/wwjd.html
http://www.idrewthis.org/2005/wwjd.gif

At any rate, Mesa, at one point, inferred he(?) had a boyfriend...so I assumed Mesa was female. Especially as a gay Republican is pretty fucking rare...though not unheard of. Yes, I have heard of The Log-Cabin Republicans. I don't claim to understand them, or what they think the Republican Party is gonna DO for them....but, they do exist.It's kind of like african american neo-nazis, or catholic communists. This is way off-topic anyhow, and I'm sure Mr. Robertson wouldn't approve. :D
I'll have you know Mesatecala, that Al Gore supported homosexual rights and Bush did not in the 2000 election. You might want to think about moving to my home city Toronto. Reap the benefits on every single level, of living in a country politicaly dominated by "liberal democrats" for nearly over 100 years.

I'll have you know Mesatecala, that Al Gore supported homosexual rights and Bush did not in the 2000 election. You might want to think about moving to my home city Toronto. Reap the benefits on every single level, of living in a country politicaly dominated by "liberal democrats" for nearly over 100 years.

You really have no clue. Al Gore is the same one who met with Fred Phelps, and he's nothing more then a backstabber. And yes Bush did support gay rights in 2000. I'm not moving to Toronto. Why should I do that? Why? For what? I'm not a liberal, nor am I on the left wing.

Just a hint. I, for one, have signatures off. There's a good chance someone won't see it.
I've never had signatures ON. Never even knew it was an option! I've never seen, or had, signatures.

And, this part to Mesa...if you are so in favor of gay rights, then how can you be so conservative in absolutely everything else? What on EARTH do you think the right-wing is gonna do for gay rights?

It's kind of like african american neo-nazis, or catholic communists. This is way off-topic anyhow, and I'm sure Mr. Robertson wouldn't approve. :D
I'll have you know Mesatecala, that Al Gore supported homosexual rights and Bush did not in the 2000 election. You might want to think about moving to my home city Toronto. Reap the benefits on every single level, of living in a country politicaly dominated by "liberal democrats" for nearly over 100 years.

Shit. If you could find me a decent job there, I might consider moving to Toronto! And learn to sing "O Canada," too. This U.S. of A. is getting too fucked up for my taste!

I'm not a liberal, nor am I on the left wing.

Tell us something we didn't already know, Mesa!!

Shit. If you could find me a decent job there, I might consider moving to Toronto! And learn to sing "O Canada," too. This U.S. of A. is getting too fucked up for my taste!

Of course, leaving does nothing to help change the situation. It just makes it harder to do because the Democrats are losing another voter. Plus, you'll miss out on the jobs being created.

For those who still thought Pat Robertson was a Christian--and I guess there might be a couple out there--his recent remarks (August 22) on the 700 Club ought to put to rest that little fable. (http://mediamatters.org/items/200508220006)

You can watch the video of him saying those very words at the link above.

So tell me--who would Jesus suggest assassinating, if anyone? And would he do it for oil?

yeah too bad i just watched the 700 club and he dosnt want the man assassinated, he wants him out of power, theres other ways of "taking someone
out" than killing them, such as kidnapping. so yeah theres goes your evidence that robertson is a evil man.

You really have no clue. Al Gore is the same one who met with Fred Phelps, and he's nothing more then a backstabber. And yes Bush did support gay rights in 2000. I'm not moving to Toronto. Why should I do that? Why? For what? I'm not a liberal, nor am I on the left wing.
I would really love to see proof of either of these and more evidence relating to how Gore would have combated gay rights more than Bush.

yeah too bad i just watched the 700 club and he dosnt want the man assassinated, he wants him out of power, theres other ways of "taking someone
out" than killing them, such as kidnapping. so yeah theres goes your evidence that robertson is a evil man.Read this:You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war.I don't know how you could miss it, but it explains why we're convinced that he endorses an assassination.

Of course, leaving does nothing to help change the situation. It just makes it harder to do because the Democrats are losing another voter. Plus, you'll miss out on the jobs being created.


I've considered leaving too. Why stay and fight what looks like a hopeless battle against idiocy when you can go and live happily in a place that reflects your values right away? I don't see anyone gaining ground on positive changes in the US at this time despite all the Bush admin failings. Meh to the US. I'm out as soon as I can afford it and good luck to those of you who wish to remain and fight the good fight. The U.S. is just not worth it in my opinion.

I've considered leaving too. Why stay and fight what looks like a hopeless battle against idiocy when you can go and live happily in a place that reflects your values right away? I don't see anyone gaining ground on positive changes in the US at this time despite all the Bush admin failings. Meh to the US. I'm out as soon as I can afford it and good luck to those of you who wish to remain and fight the good fight. The U.S. is just not worth it in my opinion.

Defeatism is what allows dictators to come to power. America was built on freedom, and to allow it to sink in to the hands of Big Government conservatives who don't give a shit about your freedom as long as their twisted vision of Weltpolitik is realized, would be, quite frankly, the greatest defeat freedom would ever suffer.

Abandoning us for your (rhetorical) own self-preservation is what caused this situation to become a possible reality. We'll keep fighting, but as long as people continue to flee rather than fight for our freedom, our path becomes more and more disasterous.

I've considered leaving too. Why stay and fight what looks like a hopeless battle against idiocy when you can go and live happily in a place that reflects your values right away? I don't see anyone gaining ground on positive changes in the US at this time despite all the Bush admin failings. Meh to the US. I'm out as soon as I can afford it and good luck to those of you who wish to remain and fight the good fight. The U.S. is just not worth it in my opinion.If the US isn't worth it, could I interest you in the world? :D
Seriously, if you do leave, keep your citizenship.

If the US isn't worth it, could I interest you in the world? :D
Seriously, if you do leave, keep your citizenship.

Don't encourage him, we need people to stay here and resist the "red" tide!

Don't encourage him, we need people to stay here and resist the "red" tide!Heck, all I can do right now is vote Green to attempt to establish a third party and attempt to convince people that ignoring truth because it doesn't match your opinion is wrong...

Defeatism is what allows dictators to come to power. America was built on freedom, and to allow it to sink in to the hands of Big Government conservatives who don't give a shit about your freedom as long as their twisted vision of Weltpolitik is realized, would be, quite frankly, the greatest defeat freedom would ever suffer.

Abandoning us for your (rhetorical) own self-preservation is what caused this situation to become a possible reality. We'll keep fighting, but as long as people continue to flee rather than fight for our freedom, our path becomes more and more disasterous.

Meh, even before Bush and the red tide I always felt the US to be too Conservative. It's just not my style, and I wanted to leave during the Clinton years, it's only intensified because of Bush and the PNAC pack. I seriously doubt that it will become a dictatorship though. There is always a large influx of people into the US who come here in the name of freedom and democracy, and Republicans, generally authoritarian as they may be, would probably not go for it either. I just think the gap between rich and poor will keep growing tremendously as it is now, legitimate manufacturing jobs will continue to leave the country, and the economy is probably goign to eventually collapse as terrorists continue to try to get back at America for its relentless foreign policy. I really don't liek it here and never have. There are good things about it but those things can all be found elsewhere. My only worry is what the US might do to whatever country I decide to move to.

If the US isn't worth it, could I interest you in the world? :D
Seriously, if you do leave, keep your citizenship.
I think you'll find that it's really hard to get rid of your US Citizenship.

Meh, even before Bush and the red tide I always felt the US to be too Conservative. It's just not my style, and I wanted to leave during the Clinton years, it's only intensified because of Bush and the PNAC pack. I seriously doubt that it will become a dictatorship though. There is always a large influx of people into the US who come here in the name of freedom and democracy, and Republicans, generally authoritarian as they may be, would probably not go for it either. I just think the gap between rich and poor will keep growing tremendously as it is now, legitimate manufacturing jobs will continue to leave the country, and the economy is probably goign to eventually collapse as terrorists continue to try to get back at America for its relentless foreign policy. I really don't liek it here and never have. There are good things about it but those things can all be found elsewhere. My only worry is what the US might do to whatever country I decide to move to.

Well, good luck to you. If things change, feel free to return. ;)

If they don't, may all of the gods ever concieved by mankind help you.

You really have no clue. Al Gore is the same one who met with Fred Phelps, and he's nothing more then a backstabber. No. He was a tremendous politician and his views would've taken America down a very different path. The economy would've continued to strive as it did under Clinton and America's foreign policy would've converged to be more similar to Canadian foreign policy. Nation Building and peacekeeping.

And yes Bush did support gay rights in 2000.Then why is he against gay marriages?

I'm not moving to Toronto. Why should I do that? Why? For what?Besides the fact that you would be living in the nation that was considered for 7 years by the UN to be the nation with the highest standard of living and quality of life, and living in a nation that is socially, and politically far more advanced and mature than yours, you would be living in a city that allows gay marriages and would have full equality and rights, minus the discrimination.
I'm not a liberalIt's okay really... Nobody is perfect.

Shit. If you could find me a decent job there, I might consider moving to Toronto! And learn to sing "O Canada," too. This U.S. of A. is getting too fucked up for my taste!Just cross the rainbow bridge over the niagara... :D
Of course, leaving does nothing to help change the situation. It just makes it harder to do because the Democrats are losing another voter. Plus, you'll miss out on the jobs being created.But yeah on second thought Vetalia is right... stay put and fight (politically) those bastards (PNAC)

I think you'll find that it's really hard to get rid of your US Citizenship.Join a foreign army. ;)
In fact, join the Légion Étrangère. I bet you'll get your citizenship revoked faster than you can say <<Sacre bleu!>> :D

If the US isn't worth it, could I interest you in the world? :D
Seriously, if you do leave, keep your citizenship.

Parts of it that is for sure. Ill just avoid the rest. I do consider myself a citizen of the world so I'll stay in the nicest places of the world I can find.

I'll keep my citizenship because I will be coming back to see family and friends if I can't get them to come to me.

No. He was a tremendous politician and his views would've taken America down a very different path. The economy would've continued to strive as it did under Clinton and America's foreign policy would've converged to be more similar to Canadian foreign policy. Nation Building and peacekeeping.

The other stuff I generally agree with (I liked Gore because he passed the Telecom Act of 1996) but I have to disagree here.

The economy was going to go in to recession regardless of the president. Oil prices were rising as the NASDAQ bubble began to go in to its full collapse mode (which had begun in March of 2000), industrial production was faltering and paper wealth companies were going under, laying off workers. Al Gore would have had the same recession if he was elected. The surplus would have dried up as well, and 9/11 would have happened regardless.

But yeah on second thought Vetalia is right... stay put and fight (politically) those bastards (PNAC)

PNAC and the rest of their ilk are very concerning. They will sacrifice anything for their goals, be it money, equipment, or even lives. I want this country to go back to the way it was, and stop this disturbing trend of moralistic restriction on personal freedom.

Well, good luck to you. If things change, feel free to return. ;)

If they don't, may all of the gods ever concieved by mankind help you.


Thanks. I'll prolly be back to visit. I'll certainly still be on Nationstates complaining about the U.S. :p :D

Pat robertsons God may be against me but that's okay because his God is a wimp anyway. Besides, I got big fat Buddha and Krishna on my side - you should see them whoop other Gods asses during the Nirvanic UFC sponsored by Coca Cola and Huggies Diapers :p

Even if he is, and I am by no means conceding that, it's still not a Christian thing to say. Jesus condoned neither war nor murder, and neither should those who claim to follow his teachings.

So? I'm a Christian. I'd rather see the leader of a nation taken out if he's a threat than hundreds of our service men and women dying needlessly in a war. Is it something Christ would approve of? Perhaps not. However, while he was perfect, the rest of us are far from being so.

So? I'm a Christian. I'd rather see the leader of a nation taken out if he's a threat than hundreds of our service men and women dying needlessly in a war. Is it something Christ would approve of? Perhaps not. However, while he was perfect, the rest of us are far from being so.


Who was a threat? Are we talkign about Chavez or Saddam or what?

No. He was a tremendous politician and his views would've taken America down a very different path. The economy would've continued to strive as it did under Clinton and America's foreign policy would've converged to be more similar to Canadian foreign policy. Nation Building and peacekeeping.

Absolutely not. I think Al Gore would of been forced to do the same thing that Bush did after 9/11. However, the economy would of gone down into a slowdown (there wasn't a recession, as there wasn't two consecutive quarters of decline). The economy wasn't going to strive after the bubble burst, that bursted under the Clinton adminstration. The economy was said to be sliding into recession in 1999 even, when corporate profits were falling.

Besides the fact that you would be living in the nation that was considered for 7 years by the UN to be the nation with the highest standard of living and quality of life, and living in a nation that is socially, and politically far more advanced and mature than yours, you would be living in a city that allows gay marriages and would have full equality and rights, minus the discrimination.

I don't really care about the UN. I think they are a corrupt organization that should be disbanded. I'm not moving to Canada, because I'm satsified with the United States, and I will be working for the US Government once I get my degree. And more advanced and mature than yours? Dude, LA isn't my city. I wasn't born here nor am I going to stay here longer then what it takes to get my degree. I'm going to Washington D.C or Langley, Virgina.

And my city is Madrid. We to mention got gay marriage before you did. Spain is very advanced, and is pretty well economically (Zapatero thank goodness did not mess with the economy all that much, hats off to him for gay marriage).

But at any rate, I'm staying here in Los Angeles for the meantime and I'm not going to move to your country. So no thank you. I'd pass on that one anyday. And I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people in Canada who still discriminate. Discrimination isn't even gone in Spain (or Europe for that matter from what I have seen). So please, don't give me this BS about their being no discrimination.

It's okay really... Nobody is perfect.

Are you saying liberals are perfect? you should stop with your inflammatory crap. Just because someone is a liberal doesn't make them perfect. They are no more perfect then the next guy who has different views. There is no such thing as being perfect. We all have our flaws, and I don't feel someone having different political views as me as being flawed.

Mesa man, you really need to lighten up and get a sense of humor.

Mesa man, you really need to lighten up and get a sense of humor.

There are debate threads, and there are humor threads. If you want me to laugh open a humor thread. I will not laugh when I'm having a very serious discussion with someone who is trying to get me to move to their country (in their dreams).

There are debate threads, and there are humor threads. If you want me to laugh open a humor thread. I will not laugh when I'm having a very serious discussion with someone who is trying to get me to move to their country (in their dreams).


Well it's your choice. You can takes humorous posts in the debate threads as seriously as you want, but you are going to blow a fuse if you keep getting angry at light-hearted jokes. Just trying to help you out there. Good luck fighting the ulcers when you get into politics and can't decipher a joke from a real point.

Well it's your choice. You can takes humorous posts in the debate threads as seriously as you want, but you are going to blow a fuse if you keep getting angry at light-hearted jokes. Just trying to help you out there. Good luck fighting the ulcers when you get into politics and can't decipher a joke from a real point.

Eh, being angry and serious are two different things in my book. I'm just pretty serious and honest about my responses. I'm not angry. I'm pretty lax right now. I don't feel you can really interpret my feelings over the internet anyways.

Eh, being angry and serious are two different things in my book. I'm just pretty serious and honest about my responses. I'm not angry. I'm pretty lax right now. I don't feel you can really interpret my feelings over the internet anyways.It doesn't take much to recognize that "nobody's perfect" is a humorous statement...

Of course, leaving does nothing to help change the situation. It just makes it harder to do because the Democrats are losing another voter. Plus, you'll miss out on the jobs being created.

You know...I find myself giving a shit less and less by the day. Why do I want to keep hanging around here, fighting in a fixed fight...when I can up and split to the Utopia in the Great White North, where my ideals and values are already the law of the land, and live happily ever after. Fuck the U.S.A. Ain't worth fighting anymore. Let the right-wing pigs have it and run it into the ground, who cares anymore? As long as Canada remains free.

I'm serious. If I could get a job in Toronto, right now...I'd leave this country, and renounce my citizenship, and take up Canadian citizenship in a heartbeat.
Canada...which better reflects MY values...is more worthy of my admiration and alliegiance...than is the U.S.A. at this point...which reflects virtually the diametric opposite of my values at this point.

Let the right-wing pigs have it and run it into the ground, who cares anymore? I don't trust Iran with nukes, so why should I trust the GOP?

I think you'll find that it's really hard to get rid of your US Citizenship.

Not really. all you need to do is go to any American Embassy in whatever country you go to, and formally renounce your citizenship. It's a fairly simple procedure, actually.

And if things keep getting much worse here, I may seriously consider doing it. I'm sick of sticking around fighting a rigged fight.

sincerely, I think the only thing left keeping me here is my mom. It would probably break her heart if I renounced US Citizenship. But, when my mom passes on, i'm likely to go to Canada, and say fuck the U.S.A.

It may well be the land of my birth...but it is no longer the country of my birth. That country died a long time ago. Fortunately, some of that country still lives...it's just that it is in Canada now.

So call me an America-hater if you want. Sorry, but I'm just being candid. At this point, Canada...which BY FAR better reflects MY values...and what's important TO ME...is far more worthy of my admiration and alligiance...than is the United States. The United States turned it's back on me, already. I grieve for the loss of the country of my birth. It's been taken from me, likely never to return. i'll feel that loss deep in my bones till the day I die. but this is no longer the country I was born into. Canada more closely resembles the country I was born into these days.

I will be working for the US Government once I get my degree. That figures considering your behavioral record here in NS.

And more advanced and mature than yours? Dude, LA isn't my city. I wasn't born here nor am I going to stay here longer then what it takes to get my degree. I'm going to Washington D.C or Langley, Virgina.Who said anything about LA?

And my city is Madrid. We to mention got gay marriage before you did. They beat us nationwide by precisely 17 days. But 90% of Canada's population was covered by gay marriage rights since 2003.

Spain is very advanced, and is pretty well economically (Zapatero thank goodness did not mess with the economy all that much, hats off to him for gay marriage). I've been living in Portugal since 1996 so I'm knowledgeable on Spain's success with José Maria Aznar and others.

But at any rate, I'm staying here in Los Angeles for the meantime and I'm not going to move to your country. So no thank you. I'd pass on that one anyday. And I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people in Canada who still discriminate. Perhaps but Canada is a very open liberal and tolerant nation. Nobody tutors Canada on social rights, equality and freedom related issues.

Discrimination isn't even gone in Spain (or Europe for that matter from what I have seen). So please, don't give me this BS about their being no discrimination. Who said anything about Europe? Certainly not me. In Canada gay marriage is allowed nation wide. In the US that's not the case. Hence... the law itself discriminates.

Are you saying liberals are perfect? Of course not it's just a simple jokingly way to let you and everyone else know that I am a Liberal supporter. Lighten up.

Who said anything about LA?

You said "my city"?

They beat us nationwide by precisely 17 days. But 90% of Canada's population was covered by gay marriage rights since 2003.

So what? I'm still not moving to a place I would not like in the first place. I've been to Canada numerous times.

I've been living in Portugal since 1996 so I'm knowledgeable on Spain's success with José Maria Aznar and others.

Sweety, Portugal is not Spain.

Perhaps but Canada is a very open liberal and tolerant nation. Nobody tutors Canada on social rights, equality and freedom related issues.

That still does not mean I'm moving there. I'm staying in California, where things are pretty liberal. Gay marriage may not be here yet, but I'm working with various groups on that.

Who said anything about Europe? Certainly not me. In Canada gay marriage is allowed nation wide. In the US that's not the case. Hence... the law itself discriminates.

You said I should move to Canada.

Of course not it's just a simple jokingly way to let you and everyone else know that I am a Liberal supporter. Lighten up.

You should lighten up and stop telling people where to live.

You said "my city"?No I didn't.

Sweety, Portugal is not Spain. Captain obivous to the rescue. Now it's my turn... whatever happens in spain get great coverage in portuguese media. Thank you for the attention.

That still does not mean I'm moving there. I'm staying in California, where things are pretty liberal. Gay marriage may not be here yet, but I'm working with various groups on that.Good. The First step is to get Arnold outta there. There will never be liberal views on homosexuality as long as he is there.

You said I should move to Canada.Yeah but I still said nothing about europe.



You should lighten up and stop telling people where to live.Again it was just a simple joking manner in which I expressed the fact that Canada is a far better place to live than the US.

Good. The First step is to get Arnold outta there. There will never be liberal views on homosexuality as long as he is there.

What a ignorant remark. Maybe you should educate yourself about Arnold. I'll vote for him again, and again, and again. It seems to me you know nothing about Californian politics. The same Arnold also signed a bill for insurance equality for all couples (AB 2900 Bill).

http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/03/030204arnoldAmend.htm

He has repeatably said if there is a law that allows it... well.. he won't block it or stop it.

And there is a bill going through as we speak:

http://sacunion.com/pages/state_capitol/articles/5971

I'm serious. If I could get a job in Toronto, right now...I'd leave this country, and renounce my citizenship, and take up Canadian citizenship in a heartbeat.
This is where I look for full-time gigs.

http://www.mediajobsearchcanada.com/

But I don't know what you do, this site pertains to what I do. And damn me for conceivably giving my jobsearch competitor a leg up, but Lyric, if you wanna get the ball rolling (and you too, Sumamba) take the first step and look into employment opportunities in the Great White North.

Mesatecala... ahh, whatever. I just finished erasing an entire paragraph dedicated to you, as I figured (probably quite correctly) that you'd just misinterpret it and get into a royal snit. Enjoy Spain, or L.A., or Colombia or wherever you decide to be.

Anyway Lyric, Sumamba, I'm sure we'd be only too happy to have all of your nation's poor, tired, huddled masses... but you gotta get the ball rolling. Try looking into it online, at least.

You should lighten up and stop telling people where to live.
...zzz...

What a ignorant remark. Maybe you should educate yourself about Arnold. I'll vote for him again, and again, and again. It seems to me you know nothing about Californian politics. The same Arnold also signed a bill for insurance equality for all couples (AB 2900 Bill).

http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/03/030204arnoldAmend.htm

He has repeatably said if there is a law that allows it... well.. he won't block it or stop it.

And there is a bill going through as we speak:

http://sacunion.com/pages/state_capitol/articles/5971
Well maybe he's a populist after all.

I guess he's backtracked since making the infamous remark... "I believe marriage is something between a man and a woman."

Whatever the case kudos for Arnold I guess.

Well maybe he's a populist after all.

I guess he's backtracked since making the infamous remark... "I believe marriage is something between a man and a woman."

Whatever the case kudos for Arnold I guess.

Wow and I thought I was wishy washy (and no I'm not talking about Arnold.. I'm talking about you)

You'll make a fine republican I'll give you that. :rolleyes:

You'll make a fine republican I'll give you that. :rolleyes:

That's funny. If I even was one. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Well I'm just checking up as I left my computer on and took a nap.. :/

First off, overall killings did not increase in Colombia in 2004 (that's something that has to be cleared up). And secondly, again... Oye oye, you arrogant.. you did not address my sources.

I have been addressing your sources and I am explaining why they are unreliable. In a country covered in jungle in which the government is not entirely in control it is impossible to keep accurate accounts of what is going on. The statistics you provide may account for what is going on in the major cities, but Colombia is not like the U.S. there is limited infra structure and a small amount of urbanization.

I also do not take the words of some partisan governor.

What about Amnesty International? Also note that the article I presented was published in El Tiempo, a Colombian newspaper.

Lets face it: Murders and kidnappings are way down in Colombia... I think it is more of an issue of immaturity on your part and the fact that you cannot accept the fact that I posted correct economic figures.

I think I've been more than patient, a sign of maturity, in explaining why those numbers are innacurate.

I tell the full story with my sources. Your sources tell a story that is no longer the case. Uribe is cracking down on corruption and getting rid of the FARC and ELN. I feel that there needs to be more increases in the size of the Colombian military (at least an increase by an additional 20%).

An increase in military spending will not improve the situation. What is going on in Colombia is guerrilla warfare. Depending on your source the numbers of the FARC range from 20 thousand to 12 thousand, they are greatly outnumbered by the military, they are also outgunned, yet they continue to have success against the Colombian government because they have informants and sympathizers in every town and every city. This again demonstrates why the statistics are unreliable.

I've considered leaving too. Why stay and fight what looks like a hopeless battle against idiocy when you can go and live happily in a place that reflects your values right away? I don't see anyone gaining ground on positive changes in the US at this time despite all the Bush admin failings. Meh to the US. I'm out as soon as I can afford it and good luck to those of you who wish to remain and fight the good fight. The U.S. is just not worth it in my opinion.

I hope that the sensible people living in the U.S. do not give up on trying to create and maintain a democratic government because, being the most powerful nation in the world, the policies of the U.S. affect the rest of us. If more people had been aware of PLAN COLOMBIA and urged Congress to vote against it, so many people in Colombia would not be suffering today.

Moving to another country will not shield you from the growing tendency of fascism and corporate Imperialism, it will just put you in a position where you will have less of an opportunity to stop it.

I hope that the sensible people living in the U.S. do not give up on trying to create and maintain a democratic government because, being the most powerful nation in the world, the policies of the U.S. affect the rest of us. If more people had been aware of PLAN COLOMBIA and urged Congress to vote against it, so many people in Colombia would not be suffering today.

Moving to another country will not shield you from the growing tendency of fascism and corporate Imperialism, it will just put you in a position where you will have less of an opportunity to stop it.


I'll vote absentee and voice my opinion while living in a better place.

So? I'm a Christian. I'd rather see the leader of a nation taken out if he's a threat than hundreds of our service men and women dying needlessly in a war. Is it something Christ would approve of? Perhaps not. However, while he was perfect, the rest of us are far from being so.

Someone who is a Christian is a follower of Jesus. If you advocate something that you know Jesus would not approve of then, by definition, you are not a Christian.

I have been addressing your sources and I am explaining why they are unreliable.

No you haven't. In fact you have presented next to nothing. You have presented nothing on the economy and you have refuted nothing. I'm quite frankly tired of it. I'm tired of your overbearing attitude. You know people, I know some people living here in the US all there lives, but it doesn't mean they know everything about the country and I'm accusing you, Oye Oye, of that. Uribe is the best thing that could of happened to Colombia.


I think I've been more than patient, a sign of maturity, in explaining why those numbers are innacurate.

Those numbers are not inaccurate. In fact you have provided nothing, zip... to prove me wrong. You just keep ranting and you are so incredibly biased. I'm serious dude, I'm the one posting clear cut facts and if you want to reject them fine. It is not my fault someone wants to live in delusions. I'm also a bit concerned... why would anyone want their country to be more violent and economically unviable? Give credit to Uribe where he deserves it.

An increase in military spending will not improve the situation. What is going on in Colombia is guerrilla warfare. Depending on your source the numbers of the FARC range from 20 thousand to 12 thousand, they are greatly outnumbered by the military, they are also outgunned, yet they continue to have success against the Colombian government because they have informants and sympathizers in every town and every city. This again demonstrates why the statistics are unreliable.

I think the FARC has been reduced from whatever highs they were at in manpower. I think they are more like 10,000. They do not have success against the Colombian government and were put out on the run. They also have a weakening leadership structure (remember that one leader that was nabbed in Ecuador?). There must be an increase in the number of Army soldiers, and elite troops. The statistics are not unreliable. I'm sick and damn tired of this.. the statistics are not unreliable because you say so. As I said, I know people who have been living in the US their whole lives but they don't know everything about the country. In fact they know very little. This applies to others as yourself when it comes to your own country.

I outsourced you. That simple.

I hope that the sensible people living in the U.S. do not give up on trying to create and maintain a democratic government because, being the most powerful nation in the world, the policies of the U.S. affect the rest of us. If more people had been aware of PLAN COLOMBIA and urged Congress to vote against it, so many people in Colombia would not be suffering today.

Moving to another country will not shield you from the growing tendency of fascism and corporate Imperialism, it will just put you in a position where you will have less of an opportunity to stop it.

And this shows why you have zero credibility. So tell me... someone who supports the plan is somehow fascist? You're ridiculous. Actually if Congress voted against it more people would be dying. The Colombian government would even collapse because its military would be insufficent. We need to send them more helicopters and weapons.

I mean how ridiculous can you get.. so are you a minority opinion in your country? It seems like it. One of my bestfriend's is from Colombia... the guy is actually considering going back because there has been successes by the government, both militarily and economically.

I've noticed a trend that I myself have been a victom of. Every single time someone tries to prove a point and does it well, Mestatecala calls it ranting and retoric. Not even the worst republicans are that incapable when debating.

Mesatecala... ahh, whatever. I just finished erasing an entire paragraph dedicated to you, as I figured (probably quite correctly) that you'd just misinterpret it and get into a royal snit. Enjoy Spain, or L.A., or Colombia or wherever you decide to be.

No mas! There are enough crazies in Colombia. ;)

First off, who are you calling crazy? I'm not crazy, you are the one who is crazy, oye oye. You should give credit to Uribe because he deserves it. At least I'm not the one that wants the Colombian government to collapse.

First off, who are you calling crazy? I'm not crazy, you are the one who is crazy, oye oye. You should give credit to Uribe because he deserves it. At least I'm not the one that wants the Colombian government to collapse.But you do want the Venezuelan government to collapse, so where's the difference?

But you do want the Venezuelan government to collapse, so where's the difference?

I actually condemned Pat Robertson. I think if the Venezuelan people want a change they should vote for it. I personally don't feel Chavez is the right option as he has drove the entire country into poverty and wiped out the middle class. He also wiped out the country's financial security.

Democratically elected leaders can become dictators. He is screwing over the working class, and building up a lot of debt. He is not implementing "much needed" reforms, he's implementing "reforms" that are driving the country towards bankruptcy. He has made the working class even more poor under his rule. There is an opposition that is legitimate, but it remains under constant attack by his supporters. The change must come within.

You could very well be discussing what has taken place in the U.S.A. during the past five years.
-------------------
:rolleyes:

By driving people out of work and giving us higher gas prices? To hell with you.

Hmmm...by selling the poor in The U.S. cheaper fuel??
----------------

Chávez taunts US with oil offer

Venezuelan president hits back at assassination remarks with offer of cheap petroleum for poor Americans

Duncan Campbell
Thursday August 25, 2005
The Guardian

President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela hit back vigorously at calls by an ally of President George Bush for his assassination by offering cheap petrol to the poor of the US at a time of soaring fuel prices.

In a typically robust response to remarks by the US televangelist Pat Robertson, Mr Chávez compared his detractors to the "rather mad dogs with rabies" from Cervantes' Don Quixote, and unveiled his plans to use Venezuela's energy reserves as a political tool.

"We want to sell gasoline and heating fuel directly to poor communities in the United States," he said.

Mr Robertson's remarks have threatened to inflame tension between the US and one of its main oil suppliers.

Yesterday the religious broadcaster apologised for his remarks.

"Is it right to call for assassination? No, and I apologise for that statement. I spoke in frustration that we should accommodate the man who thinks the US is out to kill him," he said.

In a TV broadcast on Monday, he said: "If he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it."

Yesterday Mr Robertson initially said his comments had been misinterpreted, but went on to add that kidnapping Mr Chávez might be a better idea.

"I said our special forces could take him out. Take him out could be a number of things, including kidnapping."

The Bush administration tried to distance itself from Mr Robertson's views without upsetting the large Christian fundamentalist wing which the veteran evangelist represents.

A State Department spokesman said assassination was not part of government policy. "He's a private citizen," Donald Rumsfeld, the defence secretary, said of Mr Robertson. "Private citizens say all kinds of things all the time."

But Mr Robertson's remarks are seen as an embarrassment at a time when the US is calling for a united front against terror.

Democrats have challenged the Bush administration to be more outspoken in its response to Mr Robertson's remarks on the Christian Broadcasting Network.

Venezuela's ambassador to the US, Bernardo Alvarez, said: "Mr Robertson has been one of this president's staunchest allies. His statement demands the strongest condemnation by the White House."

The Venezuelan government is asking for assurances from the US government that Mr Chávez will be adequately protected when he visits New York for a special session of the UN next month.

Venezuela's vice-president, José Vicente Rangel, said the possibility of legal action against Mr Robertson for incitement to murder should also be considered.

Venezuela, the world's fifth largest crude exporter, supplies 1.3m barrels of oil a day to the US. It remains unclear how poor Americans might benefit from the cheap petrol offer, but Mr Chávez has set up arrangements with other countries for swapping services in exchange for oil. Cuban doctors are working in the poorer areas of Venezuela in exchange for cheap oil going to Cuba.

Jamaica yesterday became the first Caribbean country to reach an agreement with Venezuela for oil at below-market terms. The Petrocaribe initiative is a plan to offer oil at flexible rates to 13 Caribbean countries. Jamaica will pay $40 a barrel, against a market rate of more than $60.

Mr Chávez said oil importers such as the US could expect no respite from the oil market, predicting the price of a barrel would reach $100 by 2012.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,12716,1555970,00.html

EDIT: And Momar Kadafi too, Reagan's pot shots at him back in the eighties shut him up too... Now he's learned his lesson and is coming around to a reasonable position in world politics. That wouldn't have happened if he didn't think he himself could be 'knocked' out.
Actually I would give more credit to George W Bush (Iraq war) for bringing Qu'addafi around, than anything Reagan did to Libya.

We would have been much better off letting people like Idi Amin continue on their merry way without worry that we might knock them off...
I don't think the debate is whether assassination is a sound policy, rather whether it is compatible with Christianity.

That said, I doubt highly that Jesus, if He wanted the guy dead, would say it in those words. He might have said, "And an angel of the Lord shall smight the Venezuelan king and tear his kingdom asunder, and it shall be so."
A "Christian" justifying murder? If Chavez must die, let God kill him, not the US Government.

did y'all miss the times when pat robertson had his followers pray for the deaths of US supreme court justices? he redoubled his efforts after o'connor resigned.
To be fair, they prayed for the retirement of the justices, not their deaths.

You could very well be discussing what has taken place in the U.S.A. during the past five years.
-------------------


Hmmm...by selling the poor in The U.S. cheaper fuel??
----------------

Actually the US is doing very well economically. The same cannot be said.

Chavez is driving his country to the poor house. I'm stunned how one man has single handedly ruined the entire country.

First off, who are you calling crazy? I'm not crazy, you are the one who is crazy, oye oye. You should give credit to Uribe because he deserves it. At least I'm not the one that wants the Colombian government to collapse.

Based on your posts you seem to be someone who places more value on abstract numbers than logic. I feel that my posts have sufficiently explained why your statistics are innacurate and I have provided links to Amnesty International and quotes from internationally recognized publications that back up my assertions. To be honest I don't see much reason to continue debating with you, but I don't want you leaving other people in this forum with a false impression of what is going on in Colombia. So, I will begin posting articles and links that demonstrate that what i am saying is true in the hopes that this will encourage people to do their own research and to protest the act of genocide that is PLAN COLOMBIA.

Actually the US is doing very well economically. The same cannot be said.

Chavez is driving his country to the poor house. I'm stunned how one man has single handedly ruined the entire country.You forgot to add the "economically." There are more ways to ruin countries than just economically, btw.

Based on your posts you seem to be someone who places more value on abstract numbers than logic. I feel that my posts have sufficiently explained why your statistics are innacurate and I have provided links to Amnesty International and quotes from internationally recognized publications that back up my assertions. To be honest I don't see much reason to continue debating with you, but I don't want you leaving other people in this forum with a false impression of what is going on in Colombia. So, I will begin posting articles and links that demonstrate that what i am saying is true in the hopes that this will encourage people to do their own research and to protest the act of genocide that is PLAN COLOMBIA.

No. I place a huge emphasis on clear cut facts and results. I'm looking at results with Plan Colombia, and I think we should double funding to the Colombian military. I have provided specifics and you have not. I don't see much reason debating with you because you refuse to admit you are wrong. You do not give a right impression of what progress has occurred. You are politically biased and you are giving the wrong picture. The act of genocide that is Plan Colombia? What an ignorant, misinformed statement.

No. I place a huge emphasis on clear cut facts and results. I'm looking at results with Plan Colombia, and I think we should double funding to the Colombian military. I have provided specifics and you have not. I don't see much reason debating with you because you refuse to admit you are wrong. You do not give a right impression of what progress has occurred. You are politically biased and you are giving the wrong picture. The act of genocide that is Plan Colombia? What an ignorant, misinformed statement.Where'd you get those facts from? How many people from Columbia do you know? How long have you lived there?
You're politically biased too, and if you took the time from ranting about how you're not and others are, you might actually recognize it.

Where'd you get those facts from? How many people from Columbia do you know? How long have you lived there?
You're politically biased too, and if you took the time from ranting about how you're not and others are, you might actually recognize it.

Back on my ignore list you go....

No. I place a huge emphasis on clear cut facts and results. I'm looking at results with Plan Colombia, and I think we should double funding to the Colombian military. I have provided specifics and you have not. I don't see much reason debating with you because you refuse to admit you are wrong. You do not give a right impression of what progress has occurred. You are politically biased and you are giving the wrong picture. The act of genocide that is Plan Colombia? What an ignorant, misinformed statement.

To understand why Mesatecala's posts are misleading and why his statistics are unreliable, one must first understand the history of the conflict in Colombia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Eli%C3%A9cer_Gait%C3%A1n

"Jorge Eliécer Gaitán (January 23, 1898 - April 9, 1948) was a politician and a leader of a populist movement in Colombia, and member of the Liberal Party. He was assassinated during his campaign for President in 1948.

Gaitán was from a poor background, but worked through universities in Colombia and Italy to attain a degree in law, and become a professor at the National University of Colombia. From there he became a popular leader of the left-wing movement, gaining nationwide popularity following a banana workers' strike in Magdalena in 1928, in which strikers were fired upon by the army. It is speculated that he would likely have been elected President had he not been assassinated.

Gaitán was assassinated on the same date that the 9th Pan-American Conference was being led by U.S. Secretary of State George Marshall, a meeting which led to a pledge by members to fight communism in the Americas, as well as the creation of the Organization of American States.

Another major event in the country's capital Bogotá was taking place: a Latin American Youth Congress, one of whose attendees was a young Fidel Castro. Castro actually had an appointment to meet Gaitán, whom he very much admired, later in the afternoon on the day of his murder. The assassination provoked a violent riot known as the Bogotazo (loose translation: the sack of Bogotá, or shaking of Bogotá), and a further ten years of violence during which at least 300,000 people died (a period known as la violencia). Some writers say that this event influenced Castro's views about the viability of an electoral route for political change."

Castro would then go on to lead the Cuban revolution (I'm assuming I won't need to provide a source for certain people to accept this as a fact) which would in turn inspire the ELN to wage their own revolution in Colombia.

more to come...

To understand why Mesatecala's posts are misleading and why his statistics are unreliable, one must first understand the history of the conflict in Colombia.

No they are not misleading.. leftists. :rolleyes:

No. I place a huge emphasis on clear cut facts and results. I'm looking at results with Plan Colombia, and I think we should double funding to the Colombian military. I have provided specifics and you have not. I don't see much reason debating with you because you refuse to admit you are wrong. You do not give a right impression of what progress has occurred. You are politically biased and you are giving the wrong picture. The act of genocide that is Plan Colombia? What an ignorant, misinformed statement.Where'd you get those facts from? How many people from Columbia do you know? How long have you lived there?
You're politically biased too, and if you took the time from ranting about how you're not and others are, you might actually recognize it.Back on my ignore list you go....The irony of that statement is getting rusty...

The irony of that statement is getting rusty...

So, what's been happening in this thread?

About the Robertson comment:

why hasn't the FCC done something? I'm sure that advocating the murder of a foreign diplomat is breaking a few rules and regulations. If CBS is fined for Janet Jackson's boob flash, I'm sure Pat Robertson can be fined just as much for his statement.

So why hasn't the FCC instigated an inquiry?

Hugo Chavez is scum bag. A Communist son of a bitch, that is currupt and evil beyond reason.

I still dissagree with Robertson of course. The US shouldn't interfere with other nations internal dealings *cof cof iraq cof cof*. The people of Venezuela voted for him.

Back on my ignore list you go....
Still can't take criticism, I see.

About the Robertson comment:

why hasn't the FCC done something? I'm sure that advocating the murder of a foreign diplomat is breaking a few rules and regulations. If CBS is fined for Janet Jackson's boob flash, I'm sure Pat Robertson can be fined just as much for his statement.

So why hasn't the FCC instigated an inquiry?
Well, for starters, the FCC doesn't instigate investigations unless a complaint is filed, and once that happens, it takes a hell of a long time to get something resolved. Also, the FCC would be very limited in what it can do, because Robertson's show is on cable except in something like 8 stations--ABC broadcasts it, and is apparently locked into a ludicrous contract with him--and so could only take action based on that limited basis.

Still can't take criticism, I see.
I'd sooner engage Greenlander on eugenics, or Corneliu on global warming, than...

...there is a telegram for Mr. Nazz.

No they are not misleading.. leftists. :rolleyes:

Continued from post 393

Ejército de Liberación Nacional (usually abbreviated to ELN), or National Liberation Army, is a revolutionary, Marxist, insurgent guerrilla group that has been operating in several regions of Colombia since 1964. Less known than the FARC, it is estimated to be smaller, having between 3,500 to 5,000 men in arms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELN

Note that the estimated number represents "men in arms" this does not include informants or supporters who remain unknown to the government.

The Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia – Ejército del Pueblo ("Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia – People's Army", or FARC-EP) is an internationally recognized terrorist group established in 1964-1966 as the military wing of the Colombian Communist Party, and is Colombia's oldest, largest, most capable, and best-equipped militant guerrilla group. FARC has roughly 12,000 to 18,000 members and now maintains presence in approximately 35 to 40% of Colombia's territory, mostly in the jungles of the southeast and the plains at the base of the Andes mountains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FARC

Note that this guerrilla group controls 35 to 40% of the country's territory. Thus making it very difficult for government statisticians to make reliable accounts of what is going on.

Hugo Chavez is scum bag. A Communist son of a bitch, that is currupt and evil beyond reason.

I will not bother arguing as there are no facts to support your opinion. But I would like to make note that my posts regarding the initial stages of the Colombian conflict are relevant to this thread in that there are similarities between Jorge Gaitan and Hugo Chavez. I suspect an assassination of Chavez would also result in rioting, internal violence in Venezuela and possibly civil war. Civil war will inevitably lead to lawlessness and criminals will capitalise on this lawlessness, in which case you will most likely have Venezuelans acting as traffickers and producers of cocaine.

Chavez is the best thing for Venezuela at the moment. The Venezuelans know this and the only people who protest his leadership are those who want cheap Venezuelan oil.

Chavez is a power hungry tyrant, who changed the constitution to allow him more time in office. I fail to see how anyone with even the slightest shred of awareness could possibly support a man like him.

Chavez is a power hungry tyrant, who changed the constitution to allow him more time in office. I fail to see how anyone with even the slightest shred of awareness could possibly support a man like him.

You don't think the majority of the Venezuelans living in Venezuela are aware of what is going on in their own country?

P.S. Are you Mesatecala debating under a different name?

You don't think the majority of the Venezuelans living in Venezuela are aware of what is going on in their own country?

P.S. Are you Mesatecala debating under a different name?
No, but I despise communism and power hungry tyrants. And besides that a very good friend of mine, choose to leave the country (Venezuela) together with his family becuase they simply saw the decay of democracy, before their very eyes.

No, but I despise communism and power hungry tyrants. And besides that a very good friend of mine, choose to leave the country (Venezuela) together with his family becuase they simply saw the decay of democracy, before their very eyes.

Are you and your friend aware that Chavez was democratically elected and that these elections where supervised by outside observers including a former U.S. President?

Are you and your friend aware that Chavez was democratically elected and that these elections where supervised by outside observers including a former U.S. President?Hitler was democratically elected. There goes Godwin's law. :D

Are you and your friend aware that Chavez was democratically elected and that these elections where supervised by outside observers including a former U.S. President?

You're going to need someone better than Carter to certify elections. If Chavez was elected democratically, then why are all of the human rights organizations condemning him and repeatedly urging that it is the opposite?

You're going to need someone better than Carter to certify elections. If Chavez was elected democratically, then why are all of the human rights organizations condemning him and repeatedly urging that it is the opposite?

Who would your choice be to overlook the upcoming elections?

Hitler was democratically elected. There goes Godwin's law. :D

Is Godwin's law "Only idiots use antiquated arguments that have already been refuted"? ;)

Here's an interesting article on good ol' Pat:

Pat Robertson's Screwtape Letters

Friday, August 26, 2005
By Tony Norman

We have no intention of explaining how excerpts from letters between a loathsome hell-spawn known as Lord Stinkblossom the Eternal Karlrovian and Pat Robertson, a minor religious functionary doing everything he can to ascend to Hell's upper echelon with both his virtue and hypocrisy intact, fell into our hands. We must protect our sources.

Though there is no surefire way to authenticate these mysterious correspondences with a high degree of metaphysical certitude, it is our journalistic duty to bring these letters forward. They shed much needed light on a televangelist's bizarre statements and shameless behavior in the last 30 years or so of his public ministry.

But be warned, dear reader. These excerpts will cause agitation in gentle souls unaccustomed to divining the spiritual realities behind the headlines. Logical positivists are advised to skip to the funnies where they are less likely to encounter offensive notions. If you're a nebby sinner, you're invited to read on:

"Hail, Pat Robertson, First Talon of the Praying Hand; Grand Shepherd and founder of the 700 Deadly Assassins Club, Murderous Wolf in Sheep's Clothing Division, Inc.

"We, the hosts of Hell salute you. By our infernal reckoning, you've blithely ignored several major commandments within 72 hours of calling for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. Good for you. The Morning Star applauds your transparent blasphemy.

"The first rule you tossed aside was 'Thou shalt not covet,' followed by the equally anachronistic and much misunderstood dictum 'Thou shalt not kill.' Being the wise old Pharisee that thou art, you understand that the prohibition against murder is hardly unequivocal and hasn't been for some time. If there weren't reasonable allowances for killing based on anger, personal profit, religious duty, politics and nationalistic zeal, how would mankind experience any progress?

"Putting a bullet in Hugo Chavez's brain would, indeed, save the United States billions of dollars while keeping the oil flowing, but at the cost of the assassin's soul and every scintilla of moral authority any administration authorizing the hit could claim for itself.

"You were wise not to raise any of these issues with your gullible viewers, Pat. Why muddy the ethical waters with anything as inconvenient as morality when you're speaking to an audience of Christians? They already know right from wrong, so what's the point in rubbing their pious noses in it?

"Fortunately for us, no one in Christendom takes Jesus' statements about murder seriously, anyway. Remember that part in the Gospel of Matthew where Jesus says that anger at one's brother qualifies as murder in God's eyes, too? What a drama queen, eh? How are you going to fight a war on terrorism with bad advice like that floating around? Blessed be the sharpshooters, for they shall inherit the kingdom of oil!

"Nice touch with your initial denial-denial, too, Pat. In lying about whether you used the word 'assassination' in the original broadcast calling for Chavez's murder, you sidestepped the dictum 'Thou shalt not bear false witness.' As old Beelzebub says, 'If you're going to lie -- and we heartily recommend it -- then you might as well lie boldly.'

"Sure, they'll catch your duplicity on videotape, but no one cares about little fibs in a world full of abortion, gay sex and Islamic militancy. You covered up nicely by telling the media vultures your words were misinterpreted and that you were actually calling for Chavez to be kidnapped. You brought a lot of dishonor to the gospel by compounding your lie, Pat. Again, Lucifer salutes your ingenuity.

"You also get kudos for comparing your situation as an advocate for assassination to Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the Lutheran nut who was arrested for trying to kill Hitler. Remember, whenever you find yourself in trouble, drag the Fuhrer's name into the mix. It will distort everything and bring that old rug chewer the notoriety he continues to crave even in hell.

"Meanwhile, keep up the good work, Pat. The eyes of His Infernal Majesty rest ever upon you. Sincerely, your affectionate mentor in the faith -- Stinkblossom Karlrovian, the Archduke of Pain."

"Dear Demon. I rebuke you. I, Pat Robertson, am a minister of the Gospel, not some supplicant sitting on a bar stool in Hell waiting for advice. Why are you writing to me? I am opposed to everything you represent. Get thee behind me. I won't mock my calling as a minister of the Gospel by becoming a pen pal to a devil destined for eternal damnation. I cast you out. Sincerely, Pat Robertson."

"My Dear Pat. You scared me for a second. Thinking that I had written to the wrong sinner, I reviewed your file. You're definitely one of our guys. You must be experiencing one of your frequent bouts of self-deception. Snap out of it. You're embarrassing yourself.

"But just to prove to you that your evil deeds haven't gone unnoticed in the First Circle of Hell, we'll share one or two names from your file to show how hypocritical you actually are.

"Remember your friendship with Mobutu Sese Seko, the brutal dictator of Zaire? You purchased diamond mining rights from him a decade ago. You were deep in the blood diamond business then, a cesspool of human depravity and misery. You used planes owned by Operation Blessing, a missionary effort to facilitate a modern form of slavery. Instead of medicine, the planes delivered mining supplies. It was tax-exempt, too.

"When Mobutu's rule ended in exile and death, you took Liberian strongman Charles Taylor under your wings, cutting deals to prospect for gold and diamonds in his civil war-ravaged country. Mobutu and Taylor murdered a lot more than Chavez. When did you call for their assassinations, Pat? Did we miss it?

"You're so up to your eyeballs in evil, it isn't funny. Your file is as long as Hades is deep. We'll have to prepare a special throne for your arrival one day. Already, our mouths water at the thought of your succulent hypocrisy. Sincerely, His Infernal Cabinet Minister, Lord Stinkblossom."

"Dear Lord Stinkblossom. I assure you, you've taken my relationship with loathsome African dictators out of context. I was engaged in legitimate business in Africa, not exploitation. What those rulers did to their own people was their business. My conscience is clean even though those efforts weren't blessed with godly outcomes.

"Maybe you should be writing to my good friend Rev. Jerry Falwell. He's the one who's called for blowing 'all terrorists away in the name of the Lord.' He's far more bloodthirsty than I'll ever be. With trepidation, Rev. Pat Robertson."

"Dear Judas Robertson. Once again, you're trying to dodge responsibility. Ordinarily, this wouldn't be a problem. We consider cowardice a virtue, but you're trying to wiggle out of your obligation to the Prince of Darkness.

"Please understand that your giggling won't help if you attempt to double-cross the source of worldly ambition and power. Lord Humiliation of the 33 Pentagrams may have to visit you with fire unless you repent of this silliness. Hell awaits your apology. Much incensed, Lord Stinkblossom, King of Pain."

"My Dear Friend, Stinkblossom. What's the diamond situation in the depths of Hell? Do you have enough labor on hand that we could enter into a mutually beneficial contract? My friend Mobutu can vouch for my character. With warm regards, Pat."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05238/560308.stm

:D

Are you comparing Chavez to Idi Amin?they were both demonized by the media...

Chavez is much more difficult to demonize because his democratic mandate is Rock solid.

Hitler was democratically elected. There goes Godwin's law. :Dand Bush was elected too...

and they both illegally invaded weaker countries...

Wait...actually Bush was not elected...he was "appointed" by the NeoCon Judges...

He's repressing the opposition, blacking out the media, using all means in his power to stop elections, and is violently crushing protest:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR530082004?open&of=ENG-VEN

More on Chavez, three pages of Amnesty International citations:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-ven/index

Here's some more from Human Rights Watch:
http://www.hrw.org/doc?t=americas&c=venezu

It's clear something very wrong is happening in Venezuela, and we can't allow that to happen for fear of losing yet another young democracy in the Americas.

I've been preoccupied with other debates and, of course, the distractions of my world outside the forum so I apologize for not being able to address your post until now. I would also like to thank you for the links. Unfortunately I've only had time to read one. Perhaps you could do me a favour and indicate which articles you've provided directly reflect on the government of Hugo Chavez.

ie. "Many of the weaknesses in security, police and judicial institutions predate the present administration and crisis. However, their lack of impartiality threatens to strengthen the culture of impunity that has accompanied human rights abuses for many years in Venezuela", said Amnesty International.

According to this quote, which I extracted from one of the articles you recommended, the culture of impunity is something that has existed before Chavez came to power. Blaming Chavez for the tradition of corruption in the police force is like blaming George Bush for the existence of the KKK.

and Bush was elected too...

and they both illegally invaded weaker countries...

Wait...actually Bush was not elected...he was "appointed" by the NeoCon Judges...That was a sad day for America. The death of Democracy in the US.

Who would your choice be to overlook the upcoming elections?

The standard UN observers, along with observers from every major human rights organization.

That was a sad day for America. The death of Democracy in the US.

I thought the death of democracy began when they started shooting down their own Presidents?

The standard UN observers, along with observers from every major human rights organization.

I agree, let's start a petition to ensure these observers are present for the next election. This way only the truly ignorant will be calling him a dictator.

I thought the death of democracy began when they started shooting down their own Presidents?Not quite the same thing. They didn't impose anyone after that as president.

I agree, let's start a petition to ensure these observers are present for the next election. This way only the truly ignorant will be calling him a dictator.

All I want is stable democracy for that region, and an end to the procedure of getting rid of one dictator and replacing him with one who is pro-US, who is then overthrown and replaced with a civilian leader, and another coup, and so on...

If the election is fair and 100% certain and certified, Chavez will truly be proven as the people's choice, and his decisions are those of his people. I'll support his election as totally fair.

In case no one answered this, I will.

"Gringo" is what Hispanic folks call white folk, as a racial epithet. It's the equivalent of an African-American calling Caucasians "whitey" or "honky."

The feminine form is "Gringa." I lived in Texas, many was the time I was called a "gringa."
Well, I find that rude. I'm not a PC person, but I don't believe in racial slurs, either. Besides, how does this guy know that I am even white?

Well, I find that rude. I'm not a PC person, but I don't believe in racial slurs, either. Besides, how does this guy know that I am even white?

Well, I tend to agree. I don't care for racial slurs or epithets, eiother. But you asked what a "gringo" was, and so I answered as to what it was. I don't even remember who used the word first, anyway.

Not quite the same thing. They didn't impose anyone after that as president.

But the fact that so many Presidents have been shot at would certainly deter anyone with a sense of self preservation from running.

All I want is stable democracy for that region, and an end to the procedure of getting rid of one dictator and replacing him with one who is pro-US, who is then overthrown and replaced with a civilian leader, and another coup, and so on...

If the election is fair and 100% certain and certified, Chavez will truly be proven as the people's choice, and his decisions are those of his people. I'll support his election as totally fair.

Aside from a short lived coup, the democracy in which Chavez is president has been stable throughout his tenure. I agree that democracy is the best kind of government and that it must be a legitimate democracy, one that represents the people's best interests. However Colombia has the oldest democratic system in Latin America with only a brief dictatorship under Rojas Pinilla, yet despite it's "democratic" record it is hardly stable, nor does it offer the majority of the population a chance to prosper. The same is true of several U.S. backed governments.

Continued from post 393

Note that the estimated number represents "men in arms" this does not include informants or supporters who remain unknown to the government.


Note that this guerrilla group controls 35 to 40% of the country's territory. Thus making it very difficult for government statisticians to make reliable accounts of what is going on.

Your source is wikipedia. Anyone can publish articles to wikipedia. Including myself. 35-40% does not take into account recent military successes. That takes into account Pastrana's grant of land that he granted to the rebels. The rebels controls far less then what is mentioned on wikipedia.

Aside from a short lived coup, the democracy in which Chavez is president has been stable throughout his tenure. I agree that democracy is the best kind of government and that it must be a legitimate democracy, one that represents the people's best interests. However Colombia has the oldest democratic system in Latin America with only a brief dictatorship under Rojas Pinilla, yet despite it's "democratic" record it is hardly stable, nor does it offer the majority of the population a chance to prosper. The same is true of several U.S. backed governments.

Umm, unfortunately you can't really grasp the facts. the fact remains is that Venezuela has been made economically unviable by the Chavez dictatorship. The fact remains Chavez has drove the country towards fiscal unsolvency and mae the country totally unattractive to foreign investment. You cannot run a country in a leftist populist manner. You will have an economic implosion.

Well, I find that rude. I'm not a PC person, but I don't believe in racial slurs, either. Besides, how does this guy know that I am even white?

Being white has nothing to do with whether or not you are called a Gringo or a Gringa.

Your source is wikipedia. Anyone can publish articles to wikipedia. Including myself. 35-40% does not take into account recent military successes. That takes into account Pastrana's grant of land that he granted to the rebels. The rebels controls far less then what is mentioned on wikipedia.

Since you do not approve of my sources, then I leave it to you to come up with credible links to disprove my points.

All I want is stable democracy for that region, and an end to the procedure of getting rid of one dictator and replacing him with one who is pro-US, who is then overthrown and replaced with a civilian leader, and another coup, and so on...

I think the last successful coup in Venezuela was over 40 years ago.


If the election is fair and 100% certain and certified, Chavez will truly be proven as the people's choice, and his decisions are those of his people. I'll support his election as totally fair.
Chávez has survived like 6 referendums and 2 general elections. Hey, it's like Bush supporters say that if you don't like him he only has 4 more years to go. Chávez is the same, except that his first six-year term is just coming to an end and he can still win his second and final one.

Then, if he doesn't step down, you can start calling him a dictator.

Umm, unfortunately you can't really grasp the facts. the fact remains is that Venezuela has been made economically unviable by the Chavez dictatorship. The fact remains Chavez has drove the country towards fiscal unsolvency and mae the country totally unattractive to foreign investment. You cannot run a country in a leftist populist manner. You will have an economic implosion.

Venezuela Experienced Record Growth of 17% in 2004

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1512

I know you'll bitch about the source so if you don't like it, provide a legitimate link that says otherwise.

Umm, unfortunately you can't really grasp the facts. the fact remains is that Venezuela has been made economically unviable by the Chavez dictatorship. The fact remains Chavez has drove the country towards fiscal unsolvency and mae the country totally unattractive to foreign investment. You cannot run a country in a leftist populist manner. You will have an economic implosion.
I don't agree with many of Chávez economic reforsms or some of his social policies, but that doesn't mean that he should be ousted by the US or any other foreign government. Only the people of Venezuela have that right. Sure, us foreigners can criticize their choices, in much the same way we criticize Bush, but that's different.

Venezuela Experienced Record Growth of 17% in 2004

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1512

I know you'll bitch about the source so if you don't like it, provide a legitimate link that says otherwise.

Yes but there is an issue here. That "superficial growth" is almost totally relying on oil profits, and unemployment stayed very high (very few to no jobs were actually created). There isn't any progress in fighting fiscal instability that plagues the system in Venezuela.

Oh and Oye Oye, think again about quoting wikipedia:

http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,66210,00.html

I don't agree with many of Chávez economic reforsms or some of his social policies, but that doesn't mean that he should be ousted by the US or any other foreign government. Only the people of Venezuela have that right. Sure, us foreigners can criticize their choices, in much the same way we criticize Bush, but that's different.

I never said the US should overthrow the government. Maybe it would help if you actually would read my post.

Being white has nothing to do with whether or not you are called a Gringo or a Gringa.
Originally it did. It's a Spanish word that meant simply blond foreigner.

It doesn't have a negative connotation most of the time. It's usually just means foreigner nowadays. Like any other word it can become a negative or slur, and I think it's used that way by some communities in the US, although not in the Spanish speaking world at large.

I never said the US should overthrow the government. Maybe it would help if you actually would read my post.
Sorry. I just grabbed your post because I'm tired and don't really want to go through all the other posts, plus it gave me a good way to start. I was trying to make a general point about the thread's subject, not your post or position in particular.

Ok here is the problem with Venezuela's economic growth.. it lacks a cushion because oil can swing easily. Chile is an example I cite often because of its macroeconomic stability, and high credit ratings.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000086&sid=aLJmjlLKlxso

"Aug. 26 (Bloomberg) -- Chile, the world's biggest copper producer, will probably post growth of about 6 percent for a third straight year in 2006 as the country's exports and investment climb, Deputy Finance Minister Maria Eugenia Wagner said."

"The government is using its windfall from copper to pay debt early and to save for when prices for the metal dip, Wagner said. The government links its spending to the long-range outlook for economic growth and copper prices, requiring it to save when copper prices are high and enabling it to borrow when prices slump.

The strategy will allow the economy to weather any drop in demand for commodities, said Joydeep Mukherji, a credit analyst at Standard & Poor's in New York. Nations such as Venezuela, which is benefiting from an oil boom, lack that cushion, he said."

---

The difference between Chile and Venezuela, is that Chile has economic stability and has the ability to look towards the future, while Chavez is just fleecing his country of millions. This will come to haunt Venezuela in the future as no such windfall was set towards the future.

Originally it did. It's a Spanish word that meant simply blond foreigner.

It doesn't have a negative connotation most of the time. It's usually just means foreigner nowadays. Like any other word it can become a negative or slur, and I think it's used that way by some communities in the US, although not in the Spanish speaking world at large.

Actually it means Greek, in the context of "that's Greek to me". So it essentially means "stranger". Of course the context changes depending on how it is used. My Colombian cousins call my North American cousins "Gringos" without any offense or animousity.

Yes but there is an issue here. That "superficial growth" is almost totally relying on oil profits, and unemployment stayed very high (very few to no jobs were actually created). There isn't any progress in fighting fiscal instability that plagues the system in Venezuela.

Oh and Oye Oye, think again about quoting wikipedia:

http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,66210,00.html

I understand how wikipedia works, if I use it it's because you require a source to things I already know to be true and you are simply unwilling to take me at my word.

I understand how wikipedia works, if I use it it's because you require a source to things I already know to be true and you are simply unwilling to take me at my word.

You're too biased and I'm not going to take your word for anything.

Chavez may be a prick, I'm from australia so havent paid much attention to it, but robertsons comments highlight the greed that america is based on. As the highest consumers of just about everything in our world, anything that threatens an Americans ability to consume to their hearts content needs to be crushed or subverted.
America cant allow the rest of the world to have the same freedoms and standards as themselves because our world and enviroment could not feasibly sustain it.
Assasination may soon be your only choice.

:headbang:

But the fact that so many Presidents have been shot at would certainly deter anyone with a sense of self preservation from running.Not exactly.

You're too biased and I'm not going to take your word for anything.

Very well, (continued from post 402)

Marxist guerrilla groups organized in the 1960s and 1970s, most notably the May 19th Movement (M-19), the National Liberation Army (ELN), and the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), plunging the country into violence and instability. In the 1970s and 1980s, Colombia became one of the international centers for illegal drug production and trafficking, and at times the drug cartels (the Medillin and Cali cartels were the most notorious) virtually controlled the country. Colombia provides 75% of the world's illegal cocaine. In the 1990s, numerous right-wing paramilitary groups also formed, made up of drug traffickers and landowners. The umbrella group for these paramilitaries is the United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (AUC).

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107419.html

If Uribe can claim to having success in disarming terrorists, the terrorists he has had the most success in disarming would be the AUC right wing paramilitary. This is because he is giving them immunity for their war crimes.

In addition...

By 2005, the United States has invested $3 billion into Plan Columbia, the joint U.S.-Colombia coca anti-narcotics plan begun in 2000. While officials say the program has eradicated more than a million acres of coca plants, Colombian drug traffickers are still managing to supply 90% of the cocaine used in the U.S. and 50% of the heroin—the same percentages supplied five years ago, when the program began.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107419.html

Not exactly.

Why not?

Because there is risk in everything we do. We take risks everyday when we choose to do what we feel is right. The world of Politics takes that to the extreme. And the risk of a president getting shot is next to nothing nowadays. Not that getting shot at and getting shot are two different things. :D

Because there is risk in everything we do. We take risks everyday when we choose to do what we feel is right. The world of Politics takes that to the extreme. And the risk of a president getting shot is next to nothing nowadays. Not that getting shot at and getting shot are two different things. :D

As you mentioned, the world of politics does take the risk facter to the extreme, which is why I wonder why you bring it up in the first place. But you are correct when you say that the risk of a president getting shot is next to nothing... as long as he keeps doing what he's told. ;)

As you mentioned, the world of politics does take the risk facter to the extreme, which is why I wonder why you bring it up in the first place. But you are correct when you say that the risk of a president getting shot is next to nothing... as long as he keeps doing what he's told. ;)
Hey, what happened to the tradition of shooting at presidents elected in years divisible by 20? You know, like Reagan, Kennedy, erm... McKinley.

Hey, what happened to the tradition of shooting at presidents elected in years divisible by 20? You know, like Reagan, Kennedy, erm... McKinley.

the good ol' days

Hey, what happened to the tradition of shooting at presidents elected in years divisible by 20? You know, like Reagan, Kennedy, erm... McKinley.
Well, reagan got shot but didn't die, so maybe he broke the curse. Of course, Dubya still has three years left... and no, I'm not suggesting that would be a good thing.

Well, reagan got shot but didn't die, so maybe he broke the curse. Of course, Dubya still has three years left... and no, I'm not suggesting that would be a good thing.

If you did you'd have to start your own television show.

I'm not a beleiver of the christian religion but from what I do know about christianity neither god, nor jesus would approve of such actions.

This is a case of hawkish imperialism under the guise of religion,fully packaged and sterilized for consumption by ignorant minds.