NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=aPjEks9mTm0o&refer=top_world_news
It's fine if there is a slight delay to drum up Sunni support. What matters is if the Sunnis do support it after three days. I agree that the constitution isn't that great, but it's better than nothing. They need to write a new one, but that should be several more years down the road.
For now, it is imperative for this constitution to pass, but not because it is good. It is because the alternative is far worse. I didn't realize this at first, but the constitution has to come to a vote among the provinces. Those provinces will have referenda on the constitution, and the results will be the province's vote.
If it fails in at least three provinces, we're alll in deep doodoo. The present government will dissolve, and a new one must be formed to draft a new constitution. That will not only be chaotic, but it will inspire more hard liners from each side to get into parliament. If another constitution is drafted, we may have an Islamic republic with a tyranny of the majority, and a festering Sunni insurgency. We may even see civil war.

There is no way the Khurds are going to agree with the Sunni's, and vice versa.

Geez...ya think maybe this was a bad idea after all?

There is no way the Khurds are going to agree with the Sunni's, and vice versa.

Geez...ya think maybe this was a bad idea after all?
No. I just think that the CPA should've written the constitution, provided that it'd be democratic and ratifiable by the Iraqis. Besides, Iraq can still be saved.

There is no way the Khurds are going to agree with the Sunni's, and vice versa.

Geez...ya think maybe this was a bad idea after all?


You are flat out rooting against the Iraqi's having a decent future aren't you... Whatever it takes as long as the conservatives look bad. Screw the Iraqi children. :rolleyes:

You are flat out rooting against the Iraqi's having a decent future aren't you... Whatever it takes as long as the conservatives look bad. Screw the Iraqi children. :rolleyes:
Hey, I'm not a liberal, and I say screw the children, too. Just like all of the Arabs, the Iraqis have way too many for their own good.

Hey, I'm not a liberal, and I say screw the children, too. Just like all of the Arabs, the Iraqis have way too many for their own good.

O.o

A bit of general resentment there?

Hey, I'm not a liberal, and I say screw the children, too. Just like all of the Arabs, the Iraqis have way too many for their own good.


OMGosh I hope your are kidding, because otherwise.... this is the epitome of total and complete self-deception, the quintessential egocentrism of humanity.

Mr. Vader, your mission here is complete, everyone here has joined the dark side...

O.o

A bit of general resentment there?
Why not? But seriously, high fertility rates destroy economies. It is why the US doesn't have much higher rate than 2 per mother, because it is counterproductive to have many.

Why not? But seriously, high fertility rates destroy economies. It is why the US doesn't have much higher rate than 2 per mother, because it is counterproductive to have many.

Where in the world did you get that idea? It might hurt individual spending accounts but without growth in population then things like social welfare and retirement systems cannot succeed.

Why do you think the American Social Security system is in trouble, it is because there are more people retiring than new workers coming into the system...

Why not? But seriously, high fertility rates destroy economies. It is why the US doesn't have much higher rate than 2 per mother, because it is counterproductive to have many.

That much is true, but to say "screw the children" is a tad bit cruel.

Where in the world did you get that? It might hurt individual spending accounts but without growth then things like social welfare and retirement systems cannot succeed. Why do you think the American Social Securtity system is in trouble, it is becuase there are more people retiring than new workers coming into the system...
It is in trouble by the mere reason of existing. Like all government programs, it was designed to fail. I hope Iraq never gets that kinda crap for their people. It'd be an insult.

That much is true, but to say "screw the children" is a tad bit cruel.
You're right. I know I got a bit carried away. As you can tell, I'm not fond of kids, despite the fact that kids love me. I wonder why.

You are flat out rooting against the Iraqi's having a decent future aren't you... Whatever it takes as long as the conservatives look bad. Screw the Iraqi children. :rolleyes:


I think your kinda dumb.

Do you really think I'm not "rooting" for the people of Iraq?

I hope they can settle thier differences and hash out a constitution, and then maybe they wont have to blow up those children with car bombs, or whatever else.

I really do hope that.....

But if you think that these people are going to actually agree on anything, given thier vast religious differences, and just get along peacefully, I think your living in some kind of magical land of fairies and unicorns.


You just cant knock off thier rulers, no matter how bad he may be, and expect these people, who have never had a democracy, and expect them to get along and play nice.

Its not going to happen, as much as I would like it to.

Also, your personal attack on me, as far as implying I have any ill feelings for defenseless children, makes you look like a real asshat.

Is it me, or is it that the conservatives in charge have gotten themselves into a real pickle, even though the half the country, and most of the world, warned you not to?

I dont NEED to do anything make Conservatives look bad, your doing just fine on your own.

Do you assume they aren't smart enough to have a democracy of their own, that they are sheep that required hard-liner and abusive leaders? Do you think they aren't far enough along the evolutionary chain to be able to sustain a democracy all on their own? You know, being stupid Arabs and all, they never had a democracy for themselves before, and all that talk, they won't know how to act.... bigotry pure and simple.

I would love to see the Iraq Constitution work.

We have been working on ours for 200 years, I'm afraid that we will all be dead before it is going smooth for them (if it works).

I think your kinda dumb.

Do you really think I'm not "rooting" for the people of Iraq?

I hope they can settle thier differences and hash out a constitution, and then maybe they wont have to blow up those children with car bombs, or whatever else.

I really do hope that.....

But if you think that these people are going to actually agree on anything, given thier vast religious differences, and just get along peacefully, I think your living in some kind of magical land of fairies and unicorns.


You just cant knock off thier rulers, no matter how bad he may be, and expect these people, who have never had a democracy, and expect them to get along and play nice.

Its not going to happen, as much as I would like it to.

Also, your personal attack on me, as far as implying I have any ill feelings for defenseless children, makes you look like a real asshat.

Is it me, or is it that the conservatives in charge have gotten themselves into a real pickle, even though the half the country, and most of the world, warned you not to?

I dont NEED to do anything make Conservatives look bad, your doing just fine on your own.
The differences, of course, do exist between the pparties in Iraq. But given a few years, they can be destroyed. How? By not making them matter at an official level. The US constitution makes no real reference to ethnicity, national origin, languages, or even specific geography. The ethnic divides, while they did exist, where minimal, and throughout the years, those differences were more individual in nature. We need to do the same in Iraq. But I guess it could have been worse. We could have seen a power sharing government or something, which is a total abomination.

You're right. I know I got a bit carried away. As you can tell, I'm not fond of kids, despite the fact that kids love me. I wonder why.

Understood, and the same thing happens to me.:mad:

I would love to see the Iraq Constitution work.

We have been working on ours for 200 years, I'm afraid that we will all be dead before it is going smooth for them (if it works).

It doesn't go smoothly for us now... that's the whole point. You make rules for disagreeing with each other. We fight tooth and nail even now after 220+ years, why wouldn't they and they haven't even started yet?

Do you assume they aren't smart enough to have a democracy of their own, that they are sheep that required hard-liner and abusive leaders? Do you think they aren't far enough along the evolutionary chain to be able to sustain a democracy all on their own? You know, being stupid Arabs and all, they never had a democracy for themselves before, and all that talk, they won't know how to act.... bigotry pure and simple.


what in the bloody hell are you talking about??

What would make you think I look down on them in any way?

Im merely saying that they have no practical experience at running such a government.
Going from a tyrranical dictatorship to a democracy nearly overnite is too much for any place, or people, especially one with such vast religious and cultural beliefs.

So..first you accuse me of being a baby killer....then you accuse me of being a bigot?

Keep it up..your making yourself look SO nice.

Understood, and the same thing happens to me.:mad:
Good. So I'm not alone. You know, actually, Salvadore Dali said that Americans have a secret desire to kill little children. I laughed when I first heard that, but now I'm starting to believe it. It's creepy.

I would love to see the Iraq Constitution work.

We have been working on ours for 200 years, I'm afraid that we will all be dead before it is going smooth for them (if it works).
It created only institutions, and it was beautiful. If you ask me, it was a masterpiece up until the 14th amendment. Everything else was just "good" (except Prohibition).

This is so amazing.....reminds me alot of the creation of the US Constitution. So before you bitch that it is impossible and that we should leave, remember that it took awhile for the US to get a constitution too.

what in the bloody hell are you talking about??

What would make you think I look down on them in any way?

Im merely saying that they have no practical experience at running such a government.
Going from a tyrranical dictatorship to a democracy nearly overnite is too much for any place, or people, especially one with such vast religious and cultural beliefs.

So..first you accuse me of being a baby killer....then you accuse me of being a bigot?

Keep it up..your making yourself look SO nice.

Let's see... how many people had practice being a democracy before they were actually a democracy? Hmmmm, none.

Actually, you just described the American colonies didn't you.... overnight democracy away from tyrannical dictatorship and being sponsored by a religious people.... Perhaps it's time you went back to the history books.

As for the Iraqi's, you don't think they can do it? Why not? Other cultures have done it. Americans, India, South Korea, Japan.... What exactly is it then that makes you think Shiite, Sunni and Kurds can't do it?

This is so amazing.....reminds me alot of the creation of the US Constitution. So before you bitch that it is impossible and that we should leave, remember that it took awhile for the US to get a constitution too.
I know. So think of it this way. The US knows how to write a good constitution. The US also occupied Iraq. Put two and two together. Why couldn't the US write their constitution, just like it did for Japan?

This is so amazing.....reminds me alot of the creation of the US Constitution. So before you bitch that it is impossible and that we should leave, remember that it took awhile for the US to get a constitution too.

Thank you, for having actually read a history book, it's a rare feat around these parts, although everyone claims they have, it’s hard to find much proof of it around here :D ...

Let's see... how many people had practice being a democracy before they were actually a democracy? Hmmmm, none.

Actually, you just described the American colonies didn't you.... overnight democracy away from tyrannical dictatorship and being sponsored by a religious people.... Perhaps it's time you went back to the history books.

As for the Iraqi's, you don't think they can do it? Why not? Other cultures have done it. Americans, India, South Korea, Japan.... What exactly is it then that makes you think Shiite, Sunni and Kurds can't do it?

Religious and social extremeism.

Oh..and a few thousand deaths on one side by the hands of the other.

Religious and social extremeism.

Oh..and a few thousand deaths on one side by the hands of the other.

Yup, sounds like every other birth of democracy I've ever heard about...

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4289059
I wanted to show you this chart to stress to you guys how important the political process is. Iraq's economy grew beautifully last year, albeit from nothing. This year, it is still growing, which may be better than some countries in Iraq's position, but not good enough. I wish we saw last year's numbers again, but we won't. The Iraqis have nothing else to fall on.

I know. So think of it this way. The US knows how to write a good constitution. The US also occupied Iraq. Put two and two together. Why couldn't the US write their constitution, just like it did for Japan?

I don't know, how about because if they did the anti-war people would say that the constitution does not represent Iraqi values and I imagine the insurgents could say that it is proof that America only wants to control Iraq and does not care about the Iraqi people. Just a thought....

I don't know, how about because if they did the anti-war people would say that the constitution does not represent Iraqi values and I imagine the insurgents could say that it is proof that America only wants to control Iraq and does not care about the Iraqi people. Just a thought....
It'd be easily amendable. The Iraqis can always write a new one afterwards, but they should at least try one based on ours. I also believe that they should've used a federal system, and not a parliamentary one. But that's just me.

I don't know, how about because if they did the anti-war people would say that the constitution does not represent Iraqi values and I imagine the insurgents could say that it is proof that America only wants to control Iraq and does not care about the Iraqi people. Just a thought....

That's right. That's why we aren't writing this one, but the Americans are being accused and blamed for too much influence and all the bad things anyway... But it is the 'right' thing to do, popular or not, I support it. I support letting them elect their own delegate and then having those delegate write and vote on a constitution, and if they can't agree with each other, than starting all over again with electing new delegates... Popular or not, it's the right thing to do.


And since Bush is having it done that way, even when it's not popular, and it hurts him personally and politically, but it’s right and he’s doing it, he deserves my respect.

It'd be easily amendable. The Iraqis can always write a new one afterwards, but they should at least try one based on ours. I also believe that they should've used a federal system, and not a parliamentary one. But that's just me.

Why should they try one based on the US Constitution? Why not the Canadian Constitution? They need to make a Constitution for the Iraqi people, that represents that they believe and want for their nation. They can look at previous examples in history, but they must make the Constitution an Iraqi Constitution. But most importantly, they must make it a Constitution that all Iraqis can read and easily understand.