NationStates Jolt Archive

Why is it that some people seem to have problems with American cars? They're cheap, they're fast, they're good quality and get decent gas mileage. GM brands and Ford are all on J.D. Power & Associates Top 10 highest quality list. Meanwhile, Jaguar, Mercedes-Benz, Mini, Land Rover, Kia, and other imported brands are below average. Even Mitsubishi and Suzuki are barely average. Really, Toyota and Honda are the only above average ones, and they're consistently on par with domestics. Heck, over the last decade, domestics have been improving in quality and fuel economy. New testing standard will yield higher horsepower results for some domestics and lower results for many imports next year. Many import models are going up in price, too.

A lot of people like to talk shit about the Chevy Corvette, which used 4-wheel independent suspension while many early/mid '60s Euro sports cars still had solid rear axles. In 1965 they made 4-wheel disc brakes standard on all Corvettes, with power-assist as an option, while many import sports cars had only front discs of worse. And the 1969 ZL-1 Corvette, of which only 3 were made, had 585hp, 4-wheel power disc brakes, heavy-duty 4-wheel independent suspension, and perfect 50/50 weight distrubution!

Now tell me, is nearly 600hp and perfect weight distrubution bad? All at a price less than a slower Ferrari?

No flaming each other or me, please. Just one simple request.

EDIT #1: I forgot, from 1957 through 1965 Corvettes were available with a fuel-injection system while others still used carburetors! Plus 1 point for America...
EDIT #2: For 1957 only the Ford T-Bird had an optional supercharger. w00t

There are only one type of American cars I like: Cadillac. They are beautiful, luxurious, and don't sacrifice any of its performance for luxury. Other than that, the only one that I may ever buy is a Chevy Impala. For the most part, I'm strictly a Toyota and Honda kinda guy.

I don't know and personally I'm sad because US workers for those car industry pretty much get their butts kicked by foriegn industry
A funny little fact was a Japanese car spokesman said that if they wanted too they could easily kill the American car industry but they wouldn't because America might actually make a better one if they find out they no long have a car industry

Sigh things like that piss me off

I don't know and personally I'm sad because US workers for those car industry pretty much get their butts kicked by foriegn industry
A funny little fact was a Japanese car spokesman said that if they wanted too they could easily kill the American car industry but they wouldn't because America might actually make a better one if they find out they no long have a car industry

Sigh things like that piss me off
In all honesty, if that happened, and our president is even REMOTELY decent, they cut off trade routes and stuff. Of course, I doubt that the Jpas could even do that in the first place.

EDIT: I forgot, from 1957 through 1965 Corvettes were available with a fuel-injection system while others still used carburetors! Plus 1 point for America...

In 2005 don't NASCARs still have carbs? Is that minus a point? :p

But I don't understand the import/domestic arguments. Does it matter? Can anyone even define an "American car" any more? If I buy a Mercedes which was built in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, by Daimler Chrysler, is that American? If I pop the hood on my buddy's old Dodge Colt and the engine says "MITSUBISHI" in faded red letters across it, is the car half American? Three quarters? How dissimilar do a Jaguar and a Lincoln have to be before I can bash one and praise the other?

they're good quality and get decent gas mileage.

Do they get good gas mileage? Most cars I see made by ford and other american car companies in recent years suck in that area.

I don't know and personally I'm sad because US workers for those car industry pretty much get their butts kicked by foriegn industry
A funny little fact was a Japanese car spokesman said that if they wanted too they could easily kill the American car industry but they wouldn't because America might actually make a better one if they find out they no long have a car industry

Sigh things like that piss me off
Well, you know why they make bad cars, right? Because there is just too much overcapacity in North America, and no real incentive to innovate. Firing is a big no-no thanks to unions, and for every car produced by GM, $1,000 of its sales go to "legacy costs", like pensions for their retired workers. As a result, they don't iinvest much in R&D. They even use the same chasis on different car models.

"American cars don't have a good international reputation."

That's the most diplomatic way I can phrase it.

I’d prefer a domestic car, but I drive a Honda. Why? It was a gift.

Do they get good gas mileage? Most cars I see made by ford and other american car companies in recent years suck in that area.
My dad's old Camaro got 30mpg on the highway and 18 to 20mpg during city driving. Heck, even some old '65 or '66 GTO was able to get 15mpg while the earliest Honda Civic with 21 gross horsepower got like 20mpg and offered less interior room, while it was at it.

The new top performance Charger R/T (345 Hemi, 350hp/390ft-lbs) get 17/25mpg, while many imported hybirds are getting nearly half of what they are supposed to (35 rather than 60.)

My dad's old Camaro got 30mpg on the highway and 18 to 20mpg during city driving. Heck, even some old '65 or '66 GTO was able to get 15mpg while the earliest Honda Civic with 21 gross horsepower got like 20mpg and offered less interior room, while it was at it.

The new top performance Charger R/T (345 Hemi, 350hp/390ft-lbs) get 17/25mpg, while many imported hybirds are getting nearly half of what they are supposed to (35 rather than 60.)

A Toyota Prius is getting 45/62MPG (and can even be engineered to get 80MPG). 17/25MPG isn't good. I like hybrids more then the Charger... US car companies suck. I would buy a Toyota anytime over Ford..

If you take good care of any car it'll last at least 100k miles. It you use good oil and have it changed frequently, you don't drive it in hazardous conditions, you get it garaged or put a cover over it. If you don't push it too hard or make messes inside from McDonalds.

The only imports my family have ever had have been lemons. However, domestics seem to fare well with us, even with not-so-great conditions.

My mom's '02 Escape XLT V6 gets about 19 or 20mpg and she can easily afford gas, even though she's an unemployed single mother.

In all honesty, if that happened, and our president is even REMOTELY decent, they cut off trade routes and stuff. Of course, I doubt that the Jpas could even do that in the first place.

They actually did but since we get a lot of money since they need our steel we really didn't care too much

17/25 is good for a small-block V8 (Semi-)Hemi. The old one's were real gas guzzlers, but they were a special investment. All the 10,000 Street Hemi's Chrysler made from '66-'71 are worths untold millions now. One '71 Hemi 'Cuda sold for over 2 million dollar$ a few years back. Most people spend that much money on gas their whole life in a V10 Ford Excursion 4x4.

I'd like to point out that you said Jap cars are better because they look nicer. That's like saying Hitler was a better person than Abe Lincoln because we was more handsome. Although not to that extreme, a little less, maybe.

The (few) American imports we see on this side of the globe don't impress... build quality isn't what we can get from the big Japanese companies (even the local cars are generally better finished.

Handling isn't up to par (but our local conditions differ from what these cars were designed for I guess), specification and appointments aren't competitive... they don't do it for us really...

Oz has a special place in their hearts for the classic 60's pony cars, as much of our domestic racing heritage features such beauties (including one genuine Trans-Am Boss Mustang). As far as durability.... my daily work banger is a 19 year old Ford Laser (Mazda 323) with 250,000km on it, and it still returns 40mpg in city traffic... it'll do me nicely...

We regard our large family cars and their sporty variants as being world-class, although they lack the extra build-quality and refinement of the Japanese and European competitors, but we get a fair bit of bang for our buck.

Horses for courses, and each to their own.

The (few) American imports we see on this side of the globe don't impress... build quality isn't what we can get from the big Japanese companies (even the local cars are generally better finished.

Handling isn't up to par (but our local conditions differ from what these cars were designed for I guess), specification and appointments aren't competitive... they don't do it for us really...

Oz has a special place in their hearts for the classic 60's pony cars, as much of our domestic racing heritage features such beauties (including one genuine Trans-Am Boss Mustang). As far as durability.... my daily work banger is a 19 year old Ford Laser (Mazda 323) with 250,000km on it, and it still returns 40mpg in city traffic... it'll do me nicely...

We regard our large family cars and their sporty variants as being world-class, although they lack the extra build-quality and refinement of the Japanese and European competitors, but we get a fair bit of bang for our buck.

Horses for courses, and each to their own.
That's the kind of post I'm looking for. Thank you.

I've never really heard anybody badmouthing Corvettes; even my friends that are hardcore import fans still like the style and performance of the Corvette.

Frankly, I think a lot of the friction related to auto brand loyalty is as habitual as the conflict related to culture or nationalism. The domestic guys pee on the import guys, but in a room full of domestic guys, the Ford guys will pee on the GM guys, in a room full of GM guys, the Vette guys will pee on the F-body guys, in a room full of F-body guys, the Camaro guys will pee on the Firebird guys, and so on...

Drive what you like and take care of what drive, and if some goober doesn't like your ride, tell him you don't like his sister's matress.

Ford-Found on road dead/Fix or repair daily

GM-General Maintance

Dodge-The name says it all...

Yes, domestics suck.

First, we'll deal with the performance issue.

The 2006 (C6) Model Corvette Z06 is rumored to be a mid to low 12 second 1/4mile time car, stock. Impressive, right? Well, yes. Until you take into the consideration its wieght, and then figure in that it has a 6.0L V8. With an engine that large, in a car that light, it damned well better be a mid 12sec car. Now then, lets compare it to some imports. BMW ///M3-capable of 13 flat, with rumors of high 12s on a stock motor. Its a 3.0 I6. Half the displacement and two less cylinders of the 'Vette. Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution. Low 13 quarter mile (some have seen 13.2 stock) with a turbo charged four banger. 2.0L I4, so a quarter of the displacement and half the cylinders. Toyota Supra Turbo (No longer manufactured)- 13.5 stock, Turbocharged 3.0L I6. Mazda RX-7. 13.5ish stock, 1.3L (Smaller than a Honda Civic) Turbocharged 2 Rotor. Notice that all these cars are fairly close to rumored times (I have yet to see a run with the C6 Z06), with smaller motors.

If you wanna talk about continued performance, Toyota Supra Turbos are capable of putting down over 600 wheel hp (not crank numbers, mind you) and 500ft-lbs of tq with just over $1000 invested into them. Thats more than 200hp over stock. There are a good number of Supras running around showing over 1000whp, and a few with over 1000ft-lbs...that are daily driven, not pure race cars. The only serries that Domestics are taking home the gold in is NASCAR, and thats becuase, suprise suprise, no imports are racing in NASCAR. NASTRUCK maybe, but not NASCAR.

Fuel wise, non performance Domestics are catching up. However, becuase domestic companies continue to think that displacement is the key to power, and that a car isn't going to perform if it doesnt have a V8, domestic performance cars continue to get poor miliage compared to thier imported counter parts.

Reliabillity, the Ford and Chevy I drove had several maintanence issues a year, while when I had a BMW, and my Toyota, have only gone in for the regular service intervals. Zero problems ever. And I do not drive my cars gently. A budy of mines Supra Turbo is making 900whp, and has over 150,000 miles on it. No motor rebuild, no tranny rebuild, nothin. Dodge is slowly geting back up there, but oddly, after taking over Chrysler, Mercedes rep with reliability has gone down.

Oh, and it took Chevy 25 years to sell 500,000 copies of the "American Legend Uber Car of d00m" Corvette (special edition copies included), while Datsun sold 500,000 240Z cars in 10 years. Imports are continuing to outsell domestics. Thats why GM and Ford have implemented these savings deals that they are now having (emplyee discount for everyone). Toyota executives recently started raising the costs of their cars in order to keep the Domestic market from cringing up, on the fact that if they disapear, it would hurt the world auto industry.

Because they're terrible. The cabin is about 5 years behind a contempory European or Japanese car, the build quality is low, and the handling is awful. Yes, these are all generalisations, but they are generally true.

For example, a prominent and well respected British car journalist recently described the Ford F-150 as the worst car he had ever driven. The interior was shocking...it looked like it was from the mid-80s. But it was a new car.

Also, Non-US engine manufacturers tend to get alot more power out of a same sized stock engine.

Oh, and mileage.

in a room full of F-body guys, the Camaro guys will pee on the Firebird guys, and so on...


The Camaro and Firebird are both F-Bodys. And Corvettes suck. Their, I bad mouthed them.

For a Mopar guy you sure talk a lot about 'Vettes. There are a lot of things that American car companies did indeed innovate and some that they lagged on. They are dealing with a gap in build quality that has lasted a really long time and even if they might be better this year or the last few, that's a long stretch of fucking buyer confidence to overcome. Add to that roll overs and Pinto-esque debacles and they've got a huge uphill road ahead of them.

The complaint I hear from the Europeans (and since there are actual Europeans here you'd have to really ask them, but you knew that) with the Vette is 'fit and finish.' It's hard for them, and I can totally see why, to be presented something that is supposed to be a world class sports car with plastic molding.

In respects to the thugs from the 60's, all of that just managed to keep them barely on the track, they still managed to be very fast trucks. I've just returned from working the Historics at Monterey watching the 'Vettes struggle against Porsches and Cobras (only American by way of a shoe horn to put a big ass engine in it). The last time I was at the Historics I saw a bunch of 'Vettes getting passed by a Porsche 914-6.

For me it's really about style and passion. This weekend featured the American Specials, specificly Chapperal (I keep spelling it wrong) and those I dig-people with passion and a wrench who used raw power to earn a place on the stage. And some of the earlier American cars had that. But the style, the finese of some of the European cars-they beg to be driven. You don't 'punch' these cars. It's the difference between makin' love and fuckin'. Fucking is fine, but any pubescent kid can do that. A man makes love.

So that's why I like European cars with some notable exceptions either way.*


*Which means even if you find a Euro I don't like or an American car I do, it doesn't change the over all. Just to save you some "What about..." time...

The Camaro and Firebird are both F-Bodys. And Corvettes suck. Their, I bad mouthed them.

Thats the point, that both the Camaro and Firebird are F-bodies. Hence, the phrase "In a room full of F-body guys, the Camaro guys will pee on the Firebird guys".

And you can badmouth anything you want, the point I was making to the other guy is it shouldn't bother him if you or anybody else doesn't like his car.

edit: I looked back over my original post, and it was pretty clear that I was implying that within any set of cars, there will be mutually derisive subsets, the whole statement thus being inclusive of the premise that Camaros and Firebirds are both F-bodies.

Imitora, am I misunderstanding your obejction?

My top reasons why American cars are seen world-wide as poor:

1). Poor build quality - interiors never fit well and are very 'plasticy'.
2). Poor ride and handling - suspension on even the newest models was standard fit on the Ark, seriously. Handling is generally woeful as a result and the steering is almost dangerously un-sensitive.
3). Low power/capacity ratio. Typical european mid-large saloon is a 2-litre, 4-cylinder unit developing 150-170bhp and getting 35-40mpg afaik. Takes at least a V6 on a US car to get anything like that power, with subsequent economy issues.

I dont know about any of that shit but my favourite car has to be the Mustang. So America is good with cars therefore. Kinda

Some people do that because they have nothing better to do, or can't figure out anything else to care about.........Like you.


:mp5: :sniper: :mp5:
The Armed Republic Of Cruel Tyrany

In 2005 don't NASCARs still have carbs? Is that minus a point? :p

But I don't understand the import/domestic arguments. Does it matter? Can anyone even define an "American car" any more? If I buy a Mercedes which was built in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, by Daimler Chrysler, is that American? If I pop the hood on my buddy's old Dodge Colt and the engine says "MITSUBISHI" in faded red letters across it, is the car half American? Three quarters? How dissimilar do a Jaguar and a Lincoln have to be before I can bash one and praise the other?
This is a good post, I didn't want it to get burried.

Imitora, am I misunderstanding your obejction?

Nope, it was my bad, I misread it, thinking that it said that F-Body guys will bash Camaro and Firebird guys, and vice versa.

Ford-Found on road dead/Fix or repair daily

GM-General Maintance

Dodge-The name says it all...


Did you forget P-o-n-t-i-a-c or are you afraid of saying it?

Anyway. I like American cars, first car I had was a 87 Honda CRX Si(straight Drive). it was alright .. very fun to drive til the clutch went out .. and no it wasn't cuz I treated it badly.. I've been on wheels of some sort as long as I could walk. 2nd car was an 87 Pontiac Grand Am SE (automatic).. that bitch was awesome, never gave me any problems.. drove that sucker for 10 years. 3rd car was/is a 96 Ford Thunderbird.. have already had to replace the transmission(its an automatic). I still regret getting the T-Bird over the Grand Prix went to look at while shopping.. I let my boyfriend at the time influence me "Ford is the shit! get it! its a V8!" pfft.. got rid of his ass and the car is parked.

Nope, it was my bad, I misread it, thinking that it said that F-Body guys will bash Camaro and Firebird guys, and vice versa.

No problem, I can see where it kind of comes off like that. I could've parsed it better.

On that point, I've read some articles that suggest part of the domestic brand market problem right now is too many models, too many brands. Could the domestic industry discontinue more models (like the F-body), and benefit from more focus on fewer models?

No problem, I can see where it kind of comes off like that. I could've parsed it better.

On that point, I've read some articles that suggest part of the domestic brand market problem right now is too many models, too many brands. Could the domestic industry discontinue more models (like the F-body), and benefit from more focus on fewer models?

I've thought that for a while. Like with GM. So many of the cars are the exact same, but badge changed only. I know the F-Body was cancelled becuase the cheaper V6 model, which is about as slow as a Honda Civic DX, was outselling the SS/TA/WS.6/FH/Z28 models. The new GTO is a rebaged and up engined Holden Manaro. GM needs to seriously overhalu their thinking with the motors they are using. Stop using small and big block V8s, and look into turboed/sced I config and V config motors. After all, the Domestic Market is still set on this whole no replacement for displacement argument, but its been proven that displacement is the most inefficent form of creating power.

I haven't looked at the new car market in a long time (current ride has 196,000 miles on it, and we expect to get 100,000 more).

Have the smaller displacement domestics fared well? I heard there was a supercharged Neon and some kind of performance Ford Focus. Do these compete on a real level with their Japanese badged competition?

I haven't looked at the new car market in a long time (current ride has 196,000 miles on it, and we expect to get 100,000 more).

Have the smaller displacement domestics fared well? I heard there was a supercharged Neon and some kind of performance Ford Focus. Do these compete on a real level with their Japanese badged competition?

Price wise yes, performance wise, no.

The Dodge Neon SRT-4 uses a Nissan motor that is turbocharged. Its a low 14 second car at best. GM as the Colbalt SS/Ion Redline which uses the Chevy Ecotech motor with a supercharger. Again, they are having trouble breaking into the 14s. With the use of a 50 shot of Nitrous, the Ford Focus SVT is barely capable of a 15.4 1/4 mile.

Now, compare that to some of the cars they are being used to compete against. The Acura RSX Type S is capable of a mid 14 stock, it has the same sized motor as the Cobalt and SRT-4, but is natural aspirated (no turbo or super charger). The Toyota Celica GT-S, which is no longer manufactured (as of this year) is the same, same sized motor, capable of the same times, with no power adders. Don't even thing about comparing them to the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution, or the Subaru STi. Hell, the Subaru WRX, the mid ground between the 2.5RS and STi, would whup up on the domestic brands.

The thing they do have going for htem, in this case, is cost. A new Neon SRT-4, fully loaded, can be had for under $24,000, and slightly more for the Ford and Chevy. However, if you want performance, you might as well just shell out the extra cahs (between two and ten thousand, depnding on model and packages) for the better car.

My primary vehicle is a 2000 Toyota Celica GT-S.
The car has plenty of horsepower, and I love driving a 6-speed.
It is simply the best combination of efficiency(36mpg) and power(150hp) that I've ever driven, and I paid ten grand.

I drive a 1987 Chevy Celebrity in the winter to protect the Celica from road salt. While this domestic car gets the job done, there is simply no comparison in quality.

I do recognize the improvements made by domestic carmakers in recent years -- the Chevy Cobalt and Ford Focus are affordable, economic cars that can be fun to drive.

I have recently purchased a 1980 Toyota RV -- the price was right, and no other RV can get 20mpg -- it's in remarkably good condition after sitting around for over ten years.

The American companies have adjusted, and the quality is much better now, but I don't make much money, so used cars fit my needs. Perhaps I'll buy a 2005 Cobalt, but not until 2012.

I have a Cadillac Seville STS. I wouldnt trade it for anything.
I couldnt ask for more safety, comfort, style or class.
Its got a ton of power, it corners and handles superbly and stops on a dime.
It seats 5 comfortably and has a huge trunk.

I'm more than happy with it and will buy another when its time.

Ever drive a BMW?? Try it, and you will know why American cars suck. The acceleration--even of their SUV (for me, the BMW X5 4.4i) is lightining quick...

Even if my Cadillac was a second slower in the quarter mile, I would hardly care. To me, its still a better car. There is nothing about it that sucks.
And I'm happy to support the Amercians that do such a great job building them.
If I needed a car and won the BMW, I would sell it and buy a Cadillac. And then invest the $$ I had left over from the sale.

I drive a Mercury Sable and I love that car! It drives nice, it doesn't suck up gas, and it looks pretty good. Now, I'm pretty peeved at the Big Three here in America because they are moving a lot of manufacturing plants out of America. It is really hurting Michigan's economy. Well, Detroit is called the motor city, afterall. Of course why pay Americans fair wages when they could rip off people from India?

(My car was built in Atlanta, Georgia. I checked. :P)

I drive a Mercury Sable and I love that car! It drives nice, it doesn't suck up gas, and it looks pretty good. Now, I'm pretty peeved at the Big Three here in America because they are moving a lot of manufacturing plants out of America. It is really hurting Michigan's economy. Well, Detroit is called the motor city, afterall. Of course why pay Americans fair wages when they could rip off people from India?

(My car was built in Atlanta, Georgia. I checked. :P)

That is a good car-we had a Sable wagon a few years back. My wife loved that car.

I personally really like Honda, but I'm kind of iffy on calling Honda an import car. Espescially seeing as they manufacture a large number of their cars in the United States, hell, I know an engineer at their Marysville plant in Ohio.

Meanwhile, increasing numbers of American cars are manufactured overseas, so it's tough to call them American made.

Toyota Supra, 1998 with twin turboes for me.

My biggest issue with US cars right now is that they feel cheaply made when you sit in them, even the cadillac, perhaps especially the Cadillac. Lots of light plastic in the interiors, door handles that feel like they'd pop off if you tugged on them slightly. In short, they look like they'd be great for about two years and then they'd age badly right after that. I love renting American cars, because they're new and fun to drive and look good--but I won't own one, because I can't afford to buy something new that will lose a third to half its value when I drive it off the lot.

I've driven my Grandpas F-150, alot, and I hate it.

I LOVE my Honda Ridgeline, better than any american mid sized truck.

My biggest issue with US cars right now is that they feel cheaply made when you sit in them, even the cadillac, perhaps especially the Cadillac. Lots of light plastic in the interiors, door handles that feel like they'd pop off if you tugged on them slightly. In short, they look like they'd be great for about two years and then they'd age badly right after that. I love renting American cars, because they're new and fun to drive and look good--but I won't own one, because I can't afford to buy something new that will lose a third to half its value when I drive it off the lot.

The interior of my Cadillac seems to be comprised mostly of leather, wood and metal. Less plastic than you're indicating.
I didnt buy this car to resell it either. It still has all its value to me. And those that ride in it.

The interior of my Cadillac seems to be comprised mostly of leather, wood and metal. Less plastic than you're indicating.
I didnt buy this car to resell it either. It still has all its value to me. And those that ride in it.
I'm happy for you--seriously. Just not my thing. I've got a good friend back in SF who swears by them, but I'll take a Toyota Corolla any day. Just personal preference.

I'm happy for you--seriously. Just not my thing. I've got a good friend back in SF who swears by them, but I'll take a Toyota Corolla any day. Just personal preference.

Like wise-If Toyotas suit you, thats good news too. I have nothing negative to say about Toyotas-my past job involved a lot of Toyotas-they were a huge client-they all seemed to be quality cars. The Tundra was an especially nice truck. The Camrys have been restyled and are now a more luxurious car, where they started as a practical comunter-type. The Corollas have stepped up too. And you're getting good mileage.

They discontinued (in America) the MR2, the Supra, now the Celica...the Scion's seem reasonably nifty, but I don't think they live up to the Supra heritage. In this new golden age of horsepower, is there no room for a mid-price Toyota roadster? (not some pricey super car, necessarily, but something in Toyota's lineup to replace the MR2/Celica/Supra)

'Course, I also think Toyota should build motorcycles, and I'm told that's just stupid.

A Toyota Prius is getting 45/62MPG (and can even be engineered to get 80MPG). 17/25MPG isn't good. I like hybrids more then the Charger... US car companies suck. I would buy a Toyota anytime over Ford..
My Ford's mileage is better than Prius' mileage :D
Maybe because it's built in Spain.

Toyota Supra, 1998 with twin turboes for me.

Bah, what you need for real power in those things is a properly sized single...thats how you get the numbers. Still, cant beat a car that makes 800hp on stock motor internals, reliably. I looooooove the Supra.

When I bought my first car in the states, I did a lot of research. Almost across the board, cars made by US companies had a worse safety and reliability record than the better Japanese cars. And they weren't any cheaper.

All my experiences before and since then confirm that US companies produce lower quality cars. Mine just didn't break down.

They're cheap

Only because of American xenophobia imposing higher-than-necessary taxes on everything that comes from outside, despite the supposed love of a 'free economy' (or lack thereof).

they're fast

If you're going to compare a 7.0 litre Viper to a 1.6 litre Civic, then yes, they are fast. If you're going to compare it to, say, a powerful European car (the fastest production car in the world today, for example) then we have something else.

they're good quality

Not especially. Ford are renowned for developing an assortment of nasty rattles within months of their life. If you want quality, go German.

get decent gas mileage.

Nonsense. Just comparing American Fords to European Fords is enough to show that. Roughly 20mpg extra-urban on a Ford Taurus compared to nearly 40mpg extra-urban on a Ford Mondeo of the same engine size, for instance.

GM brands and Ford are all on J.D. Power & Associates Top 10 highest quality list. Meanwhile, Jaguar, Mercedes-Benz, Mini, Land Rover, Kia, and other imported brands are below average.

What a bizarrely wrong poll that must have been! Biased, maybe? Definitely so, seeing as Jaguars are owned by Ford and share a great many parts. In essence, a Jaguar is what a Ford would be like if they were high quality. The European Ford Mondeo, for instance, actually uses a couple of engines designed specifically for Jaguar.
Mercedes-Benz have lost a little of their reputation recently, but I can tell you here and now there is no way in hell a Ford is of higher quality -- no way in hell. I've owned one and driven the other, and I can tell you that the difference in quality is not only noticeable, it justifies the price tag.

Even Mitsubishi and Suzuki are barely average.

Mitsubishi and Suzuki are generally considered poor cars by European standards, as are Kia, and of the three only Mitsubishi actually makes a single half-decent model. Comparing these two to Mercedes highlights the flaw in your argument -- namely, you don't know what you're talking about.

Really, Toyota and Honda are the only above average ones, and they're consistently on par with domestics.

Interestingly, those two brands are generally considered on a par with European brands -- but even so, most of the time European equivalents better them. Reliable, though.

It depends on what you want in a car and where you are going to drive it.
My fave of all time, a real mini, would not be fun to drive on big long open roads. But give it some hills and some narrow twisty roads and you have heaven. Give it a heart transplant and 150+bhp and you have heaven with knobs on.
So in some states of the US big, soft cars may be the best solution. But put a viper or a Supra on some of the roads in my native Northumberland and they will be embarrased by cars with 1/4 or less the power.

So horses for courses.

Give me a mini, a caterham, a Bently and a Chrysler grand Voyager and I'll be happy. For a while.

Most domestic markets in the major industrialised nations are capable of producing good cars if the maintain an eye for detail. As I alluded earlier, the Australian motor market tends to be fairly jingoistic at the best of times, but once upon a time we had our fair share of what we termed the "cultural cringe", where nothing local was ever good enough.

There was for many years, one true local manufacturer (Holden, a GM subsidiary), and a heap of assemblers knocking out pommy cars like the Ford Zephyrs and the like, Chevs, Chryslers, et al... in time, the Japanese industry gained a toehold with cheap (and obviously so) yet reliable little widgits (the place still crawls with old Corollas and 120Y's, although not as much as even ten years ago).

Ford strengthened its market share from the sixties on, by first marketing the American Falcon, and then improving on it for local conditions (the early ones broke too easily), and then building their own from scratch. WHile their small car range was initially predominantly British (Cortina, Escort), this changed in the early 80's with badge-engineed Mazdas, which were vibrant and trendy little projectiles (and in the AWD turbo models, quick!)

Holden competed with their own big car, unique, but with heavy American influences, until the late 70's, when they adapted the Opel Senator for their purposes. They had their hard times, and formed alliances with both Toyota and Nissan for badge-engineered smaller models to beef up their range.

Chrysler maintained a presence until the mid-70's when they started to fade, bought by Mistubishi and then neutered in the energy crisis, until all that remained were small/medium sized Japanese designs.

In the mid-80's the govenment announced an initiative aimed at reducing the number of local players to five, and slugging imports with a tariff... while it sounded a death knell for many small volume imports, and meant that any car snob who still wanted a Bimmer, Rolls or a Jag would be obliged to pay thru the nose, it firmed up a lot of the uncertainty in the marketplace.

the ultimate result of this is that Holden now produce large cars for export to various markets (the Pontiac GTO for one), and Ford have locally created their own niche for the Territory SUV. Mitsubishi are still relatively troubled, Nissan import their entire range, Toyota still make brilliant cars, and their range of commercial 4WD's keep the country moving.

For performance cars, our V8 4-doors are resonably impressive, and form the basis of our domestic touring car scene, which is fought out to the bitter end between Ford and Holden only. Both of these manufacturers have their own boutique special vehicles divisons (Holden's is owned in part by Tom Walkinshaw, and has quite a prestigious racing history, forged over the past 15 years) which produced rorty, bewinged sedans which are lusted after.

For the technocrats, Japanese "grey" imports abound, especially here in Queensland, which is littered with R32-34 Skylines with storm water drain-sized exhausts, and 120dB(A) wastegates, and a smattering of Lancer EVO's, STi Imprezas (the poor man's GTR), and turbo Supras.

Oh, and we import every classic Mustang we can lay our Antipodean hands on...

If you're going to compare a 7.0 litre Viper to a 1.6 litre Civic, then yes, they are fast. If you're going to compare it to, say, a powerful European car (the fastest production car in the world today, for example) then we have something else.


Are we talking qucikest or fastest, becuase currently, the quickest production street legal vehicle is the Nissan Skyline R34 GT-R Z Tune.

I like Ford Mustangs...

But Foreign cars ARE better. They're more reliable.

If I was to buy a foreign car at this point in time, I'd get a small Audi like the Audi A4 or A6. I like them. :)

Imitora, the Neon SRT engine is not a Nissan. DCX has NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER, had any sort of partnership with Nissan Motors. They did with Mitsubishi, but the 4cyl Turbo in the Neon SRT is a Chrysler design, not a Mitsu. The old Dodge Stealth R/T was a slightly modified Mitsu 3000GT, and thus had similar performance and handling.

How they hell did you come up with that Nissan thing in the 1st place?

Also, displacement is a great way of increasing torque output. The 6.0 in the Corvette isn't much bigger than the 3.5 in the Nissan 350Z. It has two additional cylinders, and a much larger displacement, but size is fairly similar. The world's fastest and most powerful cars use and used V-8s. With aluminum intake, heads, and block, they do not weigh very much. HP/Liter means nothing much, either. Most R/C airplane engine's make 150hp/Liter or more. HP/pound is more important, and American cars do good in that section. I think Indy Heads makes a 655cid Wedge V-8 that puts out 1185hp and 970ft-lbs of torque that weighs a mere 485lbs.

Toyota Supra's are good cars, however. I've never known anyone who's had one, but I know they are fast. I'd also like to point out the BMW's and Porsche's are much more expensive than Corvettes. The base model Porsche 911 Carrera (NOT 911 S, 911 Turbo, or 911 Turbo S) costs $5k more than a base '06 Z06 Corvette. The new Z06 runs the 1/4 mile in 11.5 seconds at over 125mph. It gets to 60 in 3.7 seconds while still in 1st gear. The engine is an aluminum (I think) small-block 427cid V-8 that produces 505hp and 475ft-lbs of torque naturally-aspirated. Give it a twin-turbo set-up, will you? It will be able to pull over 1g on the skidpad stock.

And the Ford GT, formerly GT40, is faster than any Ferrari other than the $660k Enzo model. Did I forget to mention that the GT starts at $150k?

I'm not saying there aren't a few imports that I don't like (Nissan/Datsun Z-cars, Porsche 911, Aston-Martin models), but you come off sounding like an ASSHOLE.

Sea Reapers, I wasn't comparing Kia and Mitsu to Mercedes. I think you were just looking for an excuse to be an ASSHOLE. Also, my family has owned many Ford's and we've never had any problems. We can easily afford gas, even though we aren't rich, with our several cars. Of course I think that some German cars may be better, my family is 60% German, but we still prefer domestics. An American mid-size sedan costs in the range of $20k to $30k. A German mid-size sedan costs in the range of $35k to $50k or more. We can afford the difference in quality, I think I would know.

I said no flaming, and that goes for people's race, their automotive preference, and their country of origin. Just one simple request. All I wanted was a free, fair, open, and friendly debate where people simply said what their opinion was, being careful not to offend other people's opinions, and compare are contrasts assorted things.

BUT NO, YOU HAVE TO GO AND BE AN ASSHOLE!

If you can't be nicer, then please, get OUT of my thread.

And I'm happy to support the Amercians that do such a great job building them.
If I needed a car and won the BMW, I would sell it and buy a Cadillac. And then invest the $$ I had left over from the sale.

Ok, now you're just lieing. Unless you won a car expensive enough to be able to buy, say, that Cadillac Sixteen concept car (I have wet dreams about that car), there's no way you can be a normal human being and chose a Cadillac over a high quality BMW or Audi.

Hell, I'd take an Audi TT over virtually any other car on the road. That thing is just beautiful, inside, outside, and under the hood.

Even though I dont like or drive american cars ( though I am american ).

http://www.engineering.uiowa.edu/aceacademy/students/hs/Student_Folders/Wellburn_Jonathan/tb_saleen-lg.jpg
http://www.econ.kuleuven.be/public/ndbaf47/Wallpapers/Saleen/saleen-S7-17-1024.jpg

One of the few good american cars, the Downward force created by it is so great, that it could drive upside down if it could start at its maximum speed.

Europeans make the best cars hands down.

If you're going to compare a 7.0 litre Viper to a 1.6 litre Civic, then yes, they are fast. If you're going to compare it to, say, a powerful European car (the fastest production car in the world today, for example) then we have something else.




Although, Ferrari and Aston Martin along with others have been throwing what they have in the GT catagory at Le Mans only to be handled by Vipers and now Corvettes. Oddly enough, their big advantage has been rock solid reliability.

I like the European cars (see my fuckin'/making love analogy earlier) but, got to give it up where it's due. Put on the track, right now, the 'Vette and Viper are world class. Now, if they could just get rid of the plastic interiors...

A Toyota Prius is getting 45/62MPG (and can even be engineered to get 80MPG). 17/25MPG isn't good. I like hybrids more then the Charger... US car companies suck. I would buy a Toyota anytime over Ford..
you know that 20 to 30 gallons your supposed to be getting will save you on gas but you have to buy a hybrid battery every so often that ends up making you pay more money for that hybrid than a gas car.

personally i would love to drive a 2005 ford mustang but until im over 25 that isnt happening "that piece of bullshit called insurence" right now i drive a mazda3 its damn nice car its made in japan but guess what? ford owns it!

you know that 20 to 30 gallons your supposed to be getting will save you on gas but you have to buy a hybrid battery every so often that ends up making you pay more money for that hybrid than a gas car.

personally i would love to drive a 2005 ford mustang but until im over 25 that isnt happening "that piece of bullshit called insurence" right now i drive a mazda3 its damn nice car its made in japan but guess what? ford owns it!

It will eventually be cheaper if more R&D money is focused on it. People said that computers were far too expensive when they first came out, but then they became cheap. Hybrids are definitely worth the investment and with the gas prices out there now, it would be economically worth it.

Oh and wait a minute.. don't you have to replace the battery in your non-hybrid gas car every now and then?

Anyways, it is like the government has been listening to me and reading my posts.. they are raising MPG requirements on SUVs.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050823/ap_on_go_ot/fuel_economy_3

WASHINGTON - With gas prices continuing to rise, the Bush administration on Tuesday proposed new rules to compel auto manufacturers to make pickup trucks, minivans and some sport utility vehicles more fuel efficient. Environmentalists said the plan would do little to wean the nation from its dependence on foreign oil.

The proposal would require the auto industry to raise standards for most vehicles other than cars beginning in 2008. All automakers would have to comply with the new system by 2011.

"This is a plan that will save gas and result in less pain at the pump for motorists without sacrificing safety," Transportation Secretary Norman Y. Mineta said.

Mineta, speaking at news conferences in Atlanta and Los Angeles, said the program was expected to save about 10 billion gallons of gasoline over the life of vehicles built from 2008 through 2011. The U.S. currently consumes about 140 billion gallons of gasoline per year, according to Energy Department statistics.

---

Environmentalists of course bash it because it is an economically viable plan from the Bush adminstration (they bash anything from Bush).

Since 1990, I've had:

1979 Chevy Malibu (A/C on the highway with the windows rolled down, AM/8-Trac radio... vinyl seats)
1984 Cutlass Supreme (A/C long dead, Am/Fm radio... cloth seats)
1991 Buick Riviera (A/C died after a few years, Am/Fm/Cassette/CD... leather seats)
2000 Chrysler 300M (A/C, Am/Fm/Cassette/CD changer... leather heated seats).

Barring the Chrysler, all the cars had the exact same chassis, suspension, brakes, and V-6 engine... so basically, I was just upgrading interiors. :)

That said: Some imports are good, some imports are bad. I just feel happy to live and work in the US, so I like to buy American.

Silly poll. Gas mileage and reliability have never entered into the equation for me. And price has always been secondary. Since 1976 only 2 of the 8 cars I've owned have been American. Currently driving a 1994 Audi quattro I bought in 1997 (only reason for buying it was the quattro system with Torsen center diff). But cars suck, I'll take my Ninja anyday over a car.

That said: Some imports are good, some imports are bad. I just feel happy to live and work in the US, so I like to buy American.


I agree and make every reasonable effort to buy American.

I agree and make every reasonable effort to buy American.A commendable attitute for sure. I do it myself all the time but you will still miss out on the superior quality of European cars.

If you have to put rice in the gas tank and talk jap to get it to start, I wont buy it.

If it doesnt have a bow tie, I wont buy it!

Gas will be at least $4.00 a gallon by next summer. It will be above $5.00 before the current incompetent administration leaves the white house for another incompetent administration. Spending $10-$12 to drive 100 miles vs. $25-$30 is a HUGE difference. Anyone who is ignores this and buys SUVs or other gas guzzling vehicles is in for bad times.

I have never gotten less than 42 mpg between fill-ups with my Prius. Hybrid batteries are exceeding initial projects for how long they last. When is the last time you heard a part was made better than claimed in a car?

People who use Hitler to make a point in a post completely lose credibility, like a mob at a Hitler rally. :p

If I was to buy a foreign car at this point in time, I'd get a small Audi like the Audi A4 or A6. I like them. :)
An A6 isn't small.

I prefer "foreign" cars, preferrably German :D (which kinda makes them domestic again, depending on your p.o.v.)

Ford-Found on road dead/Fix or repair daily

GM-General Maintance

Dodge-The name says it all...

Yes, domestics suck.

First, we'll deal with the performance issue.

The 2006 (C6) Model Corvette Z06 is rumored to be a mid to low 12 second 1/4mile time car, stock. Impressive, right? Well, yes. Until you take into the consideration its wieght, and then figure in that it has a 6.0L V8. With an engine that large, in a car that light, it damned well better be a mid 12sec car. Now then, lets compare it to some imports. BMW ///M3-capable of 13 flat, with rumors of high 12s on a stock motor. Its a 3.0 I6. Half the displacement and two less cylinders of the 'Vette. Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution. Low 13 quarter mile (some have seen 13.2 stock) with a turbo charged four banger. 2.0L I4, so a quarter of the displacement and half the cylinders. Toyota Supra Turbo (No longer manufactured)- 13.5 stock, Turbocharged 3.0L I6. Mazda RX-7. 13.5ish stock, 1.3L (Smaller than a Honda Civic) Turbocharged 2 Rotor. Notice that all these cars are fairly close to rumored times (I have yet to see a run with the C6 Z06), with smaller motors.

If you wanna talk about continued performance, Toyota Supra Turbos are capable of putting down over 600 wheel hp (not crank numbers, mind you) and 500ft-lbs of tq with just over $1000 invested into them. Thats more than 200hp over stock. There are a good number of Supras running around showing over 1000whp, and a few with over 1000ft-lbs...that are daily driven, not pure race cars. The only serries that Domestics are taking home the gold in is NASCAR, and thats becuase, suprise suprise, no imports are racing in NASCAR. NASTRUCK maybe, but not NASCAR.

Fuel wise, non performance Domestics are catching up. However, becuase domestic companies continue to think that displacement is the key to power, and that a car isn't going to perform if it doesnt have a V8, domestic performance cars continue to get poor miliage compared to thier imported counter parts.

Reliabillity, the Ford and Chevy I drove had several maintanence issues a year, while when I had a BMW, and my Toyota, have only gone in for the regular service intervals. Zero problems ever. And I do not drive my cars gently. A budy of mines Supra Turbo is making 900whp, and has over 150,000 miles on it. No motor rebuild, no tranny rebuild, nothin. Dodge is slowly geting back up there, but oddly, after taking over Chrysler, Mercedes rep with reliability has gone down.

Oh, and it took Chevy 25 years to sell 500,000 copies of the "American Legend Uber Car of d00m" Corvette (special edition copies included), while Datsun sold 500,000 240Z cars in 10 years. Imports are continuing to outsell domestics. Thats why GM and Ford have implemented these savings deals that they are now having (emplyee discount for everyone). Toyota executives recently started raising the costs of their cars in order to keep the Domestic market from cringing up, on the fact that if they disapear, it would hurt the world auto industry.

Displacement and quarter mile times aren't the only thing you should be looking at here.

Sure the S54 in the current M3 makes over 100 hp/L (Its a 3.2L I6 BTW), but it weighs more than the LS2 engine in the new base model corvette, makes 67 less horsepower, over 100 less ft/lbs of torque, and has very similar gas mileage.

Corvettes are incredible sports cars - say whatever you like about their interiors - they are very fast in a straight line and handle extremly well. No production model BMWs can even be put in the same class as the new Z06; but thats not to say that BMWs aren't great cars (I'd kill for a new M5 with that beautiful V10) You just can't beat the performance the new Z06 offers at that price mark. It smokes naturally aspirated porsches, and should be able to hang with the new F430 at less than half the price.

Other than a corvette though, I doubt I'd own a domestic car. By and large they guzzle gas, have comparatively poor build quality, lackluster performace, and break down earlier and more often than toyotas, hondas, and german cars.