NationStates Jolt Archive

While public schools are taking a lot of heat these days and charter schools are less than perfect, I was wondering what people thought of home schooling?

I am personally against it as socialization is part of the learning process and statistically Home schooled kids are more likely to fail-out or drop in college. What are your thoughts?

While public schools are taking a lot of heat these days and charter schools are less than perfect, I was wondering what people thought of home schooling?

I am personally against it as socialization is part of the learning process and statistically Home schooled kids are more likely to fail-out or drop in college. What are your thoughts?
I have known successful and failures of the home school system

I guess I would like to see people out in the real world but I don’t find anything absolutely wrong with it … parents right to decide … I just never would do that to my kid

Only if the parents are totally awesome. :p

I have known successful and failures of the home school system

I guess I would like to see people out in the real world but I don’t find anything absolutely wrong with it … parents right to decide … I just never would do that to my kid

I think the major issue I have with it is, who evaluates the parent as a teacher? I suppose if Grandma is a retired teacher or something...but what about standards and testing?

While public schools are taking a lot of heat these days and charter schools are less than perfect, I was wondering what people thought of home schooling?

I am personally against it as socialization is part of the learning process and statistically Home schooled kids are more likely to fail-out or drop in college. What are your thoughts?

I agree with you for the same reason. School isn't just about education, it's about making friends and learning from experience.

I have a friend who was home-schooled from grades 5-8 because of a beef his parents had with the school system. He's fine, but I think he missed out quite a bit.

While public schools are taking a lot of heat these days and charter schools are less than perfect, I was wondering what people thought of home schooling?

I am personally against it as socialization is part of the learning process and statistically Home schooled kids are more likely to fail-out or drop in college. What are your thoughts?

If "socialization" means having to learn to defend yourself against dangerous gangs, I think the child is better off being schooled at home.

I think the major issue I have with it is, who evaluates the parent as a teacher? I suppose if Grandma is a retired teacher or something...but what about standards and testing?

Alot of it depends on the state laws, the parents,and the kids. There are institutions that "grade" a homeschoolers work and provides guidelines. One company is called "DidToday" (plug, plug). I generally oppose homeschooling but they're decent.

My wife was homeschooled. Excellent English skills, mediocre math, atrocious science. Other homeschoolers I've known range from barely literate to extremely well educated. The main problem is socialization. Of the ones I've known, the most well adjusted were the ones that homeschooled for grammar school then went to a public HS.

Homeschooled kids, like public schooled kids, aren't unsocialized so long as the parents are fulfilling their parental responsibilities.

You can't really claim that being in a public school properly socializes you because I know (heck, we all know) kids from the public school system who are completely socially dysfunctional. Their social dysfunctions manifest themselves in various ways--from being brute neanderthal bullies to being akward, studdering pencil neck nerds. There are plenty of others--goths, or gangsters, or whatever. They're in public school, so what happened to them? I thought that a main thrust of public schooling was to make sure kids are socialized? Is this your idea of properly socialized people?

I don't know about your experiences, but for plenty of folks, their public school days were borderline traumatic because they were everyday throw in the cages with these weirdos and animals. This isn't part of a healthy developmental or educational environment; kids aren't able to deal with this barrage of misfits and anti-social behavior as effectively as when they're mature adults.

What it ultimately comes down to is that it is the parent's responsibility to properly socialize their kids, not the school's. If the parent fails to do their part, the kid will be socially dysfunctional regardless of whether they are homeschooled, public schooled, private schooled, or living in a cave.

I've known plenty of people who were public schooled who went on to lead unproductive, embittered, isolationist lives. I've known plenty of homeschooled people who went on to be wealthy, honest, social leaders. There's no correlation.

Don't get me wrong, a few homeschool parents homeschool their kids so they can isolate them from the world--those kids are going to have trouble. But that again goes back to the real problem of parents not fulfilling their responsibility to properly socialize their kids.








And don't forget that homeschooled kids, on average, score at the 89th percentile on state-sponsored standardized tests. www.hslda.org

If "socialization" means having to learn to defend yourself against dangerous gangs, I think the child is better off being schooled at home.

Seriously. Don't forget that those gangster kids are in a public school every day- but they're not exactly what I would call properly socialized.

OK by me... as long as there's a way to evaluate the person who's teaching them. I don't think you should have any old person/parent just decide to homeschool their child and end up not teaching them enough/the wrong things.

Brians Test you have the right idea.
Besides, schools don’t even offer proper socialization, anyway. It is not representative of the real world at all. Almost everyone is your same age, there are strict behavioral rules that must be followed, and people above you (teachers) that can give you a non-academic order (read not job-related) without any legal president, just because they want to or feel like it.

Home schooled kids are more likely to fail-out or drop in college. What are your thoughts?


I dispute this. Where are you getting this statistic from?

Home schooling generally sucks. Public schooling, provided by the government, is a little better. Private, really fucking expensive schooling is best. What the eff at 15% of people from my school going onto to do medicine. That means 15% of the entire school get perfect results each year. I doubt either alternatives could compete with that.

I think it depends on the individual situation. If the local schools are atrocious, you can't afford a good private school, and someone at home is qualified (and has the time) to properly teach a child, no problem - so long as they ensure that the child is involved in other activities to socialize with children their own age.

If the public schools are good schools, or there is a nearby good private school which you can afford, there probably isn't a good reason to homeschool.

Another reason for homeschooling might be that your child is especially gifted (not just you think they are - all parents think that - but that they really are) and needs to move at a much faster pace than that afforded by schools or that the child needs to move at a much slower pace than that afforded by schools.

It would seem that a great many people who homeschool
don't do so because they believe they can teach their children better
but because there are things their children would be taught that they
don't want them to know.

So home schooling for the prevention of education is pretty much a no no for me

Some people would homeschool because they can keep their children under
their own dominating influence - this would always be bad even when
that isn't motivated by a desire to physically or sexually abuse those
children.

Some people might homeschool because they want to impart something
or keep their children in a way of life that is odd in terms of the general populace - I can understand that but is it healthy.
For example naturists may wish their children to be able to spend as much
time as possible being naturists rather than being constantly exposed
to the rest of the world that would think that was extremely odd.

Can't say there's a major buy in to that one either and that would extend
to any other odd ways of life no matter how well intentioned , religious or not.


The only justifiable home schooling would be where you have the kind of child
with a voracious appetite for knowledge and very high levels of intelligence
If you also are able to cater to that and would not only need to be very
well educated yourself but a bit of a renaissance man or woman.
Even then while you would allow your child to develop at their own pace
without being held back by being in same age classes etc
kids would miss out on the whole socialization
which by defnition is how you get on when thrown together with people that
you wouldn't choose to be on the face of it.

It would suit some children but
in my opinion
it would be more likely to be harmful to more than it suited

A Lot of Smart people are Homeschooled Like for instance Edison Was a Homeschool Student

While public schools are taking a lot of heat these days and charter schools are less than perfect, I was wondering what people thought of home schooling?

I am personally against it as socialization is part of the learning process and statistically Home schooled kids are more likely to fail-out or drop in college. What are your thoughts?
I consider home-schooling to be a last resort; if you are completely unable to find a decent school, or are unable to move to provide your kids with better educational opportunities, or cannot possibly afford to send your kids to a successful boarding school, then MAYBE it would be time to consider home schooling.

A Lot of Smart people are Homeschooled Like for instance Edison Was a Homeschool Student
Honey, most people from Edison's time period would have been considered "home schooled" by today's standards. That's not necessarily a mark in favor of homeschooling.

I think homeschooling, when applied properly, can be highly benificial.

If the parents are capable and want to teach their children better than schools can (not to sheild them from things like sex et cetera), they have the resources (including time), and the child attends things like sport clubs et cetera, then it can work. Otherwise, it will most likely fail.

The one-on-one enviroment means that the child can progress at their own rate.

Also, it has the advantage of the child not being exposed to "averages" and statistics.

I am homeschooled, having spent a brief period in public school. I hardly learnt anything in school and did not make friends there. Now, as a homeschooler, I can devote however much of my time whatever I need and want to; my wants happen to be just what I need (to learn). Even though I an not the person to make loads of friends, the friends I do have are quite close and share in my beliefs. School would just not work for me at all.

My kids attend public school. So far, both boys are well above average and look foward to school.
My wife and I are involved in their homework and projects, make sure they are on track. Both boys learned to read much earlier than their classmates and continue to read for pleasure, in their spare time. I take them to the public library at least once a week. We supplement what they learn in school.
We dont homeschool, but we play a very active role in their learning, rather than just ask them how they are doing.
It seems to be working so far.

My kids attend public school. So far, both boys are well above average and look foward to school.
My wife and I are involved in their homework and projects, make sure they are on track. Both boys learned to read much earlier than their classmates and continue to read for pleasure, in their spare time. I take them to the public library at least once a week. We supplement what they learn in school.
We dont homeschool, but we play a very active role in their learning, rather than just ask them how they are doing.
It seems to be working so far.

But that takes parental involvement and responsibility. Shame on you.

As a homeschooled kid myself, I think I have at least a fairly good concept of how homeschooling affects kids and whether it's a good or bad decision. I'm a grad student at a fairly large university now and I personally think being homeschooled was a great thing for me. Yeah, there were some things I missed out on by not ever going to school and sometimes I wish things were different. But who doesnt? There's other things I got to do that most kids never get to experience and that's pretty cool. Socialization is not nearly as big an issue as some people make it out to be. I mean, I know some homeschool kids that really don't quite fit into society and I think it would've been good for them to get out in the real world some. But most of us are perfectly "normal". If kids are involved in other activities outside of home, they generally turn out ok. If anybody I or any of my homeschool friends have ever met anybody that didn't already know we were homeschooled, most of them have no idea and can't ever tell anybody difference between us and public or private school kids. The ones that can tell a difference in us usually find us to be more responsible, independent, and sometimes better able to relate well to all ages of people. It's really not about where you go to school. It's how your parents raise you and the opportunities you have and the people you know. In most states, there are rules and standards and such that you have to meet and follow. Both my parents are teachers so they had a better grasp than some parents on how and what to teach us. I agree that it's not good for kids to stay at home just because parents have a problem with the school system or want to completely control what their kids are exposed to, especially when the parents aren't really qualified to teach or don't really care what their kids are learning. My parents were a little more overprotective than most and I came to college fairly naive, although not too much so because I had friends my whole life that went to school, but I've never felt like being homeschooled has held me back in any way. Homeschooling doesn't work for everyone and I know plenty of people who would hate it, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Do a little research and you'll find more and more instances of homeschool kids coming out better in many different areas than kids that went to school. So my advice is, don't knock it until you try it or make sure to learn enough about it to have an informed opinion. I think it's a great system if the kids can deal with it and the parents care enough to do it right and if rules and standards are followed so there's some accountability involved.

Ok so I know this is probably a little long...sorry about that...it's an issue I care about and feel at least as well qualified as anyone else to offer a genuinely informed opinion.

It seems to me the best way to educate one's child is through a lot of parental involvement very early on. If you allow your child to grow lazy and hate work, it will be so much harder to help them help themselves later on in their progress to adulthood. Homeschooling is the answer for some, public school an answer for others (or a necessity, considering the abundance of families where the both the spouses have jobs).

But that takes parental involvement and responsibility. Shame on you.

I usually establish a first name basis for the relationship with their teachers early in the year. They know my wife and I are very interested parents and we pay close attention. We both go to the back to school nights and both go to the parent-teacher conferences. I've found things go much more smoothly when they know they have an involved parent, so far. It eliminates a lot of the petty misunderstanding crap.
While I dont feel qualified to provide the sole education for my children, I am happy with a very progressive and modern school system, foward thinking teachers and administrators. The school system here played a big part in where we bought our home. And I think our positive attitude, involvement and support is giving a good boost to my kid's education.

It seems to me the best way to educate one's child is through a lot of parental involvement very early on. If you allow your child to grow lazy and hate work, it will be so much harder to help them help themselves later on in their progress to adulthood. Homeschooling is the answer for some, public school an answer for others (or a necessity, considering the abundance of families where the both the spouses have jobs).

We're very fortunate to both work full time, from home. We can deal with issues as they arise, rather than from an office or at the end of the day when we're exhausted. And my kids are aware we are always there for them.

I usually establish a first name basis for the relationship with their teachers early in the year. They know my wife and I are very interested parents and we pay close attention. We both go to the back to school nights and both go to the parent-teacher conferences. I've found things go much more smoothly when they know they have an involved parent, so far. It eliminates a lot of the petty misunderstanding crap.
While I dont feel qualified to provide the sole education for my children, I am happy with a very progressive and modern school system, foward thinking teachers and administrators. The school system here played a big part in where we bought our home. And I think our positive attitude, involvement and support is giving a good boost to my kid's education.


Well you're obviously a poor parent. You're supposed to neglect your kids to do your own thing, relying on the TV to teach them and if the teachers dare to fail them for cheating or not doing their work, you're supposed to sue the school and have the decision reversed. Don't you keep up w/ the times?

I think it depends entirely on who is homeschooling them. Done properly, homeschooling can be truly excellent. Children with special needs such as dyslexia can benefit most from home schooling. I come into contact with a lot of children and many of them are home schooled. The ones who are home schooled I have consistently found to be better educated than the ones who go to public school. There are exceptions, but the rule is that home schooling renders better results. People who say that home schooling prevents socialization have obviously never met home schooled people or thought this through. Kids who are homeschooled still get to socialize with their friends and neighbors and they still do activities where they socialize with others (basketball, baseball, boy scouts, football, soccer, youth groups, church activities, etc.). They are different, there is no doubt. But in a positive way. I find it silly for people to assume that kids who are home schooled lack socialization. So, Jimmy doesnt go to a school with other kids regularly, but hes in a baseball team, he goes to boy scouts, he socializes with the kids in his neighborhood, he hangs out with the kids from church where he attends youth group, and he goes to camp every summer. Somehow, Jimmy lacks socialization simply because he doesnt go to school?? I dont think so.

I am fine with other people home schooling, but I'd never do it because I would like to hang out with my homies

No one seems to take into account here the children that are home-schooled due to mental problems. Tourette's, autisim, ADHD, schitzophrenia, among others, make it difficult or impossible for them to participate in a normal school enviroment. To avoid going to a school full of other people with similar problems, sometimes it is best that these kids are home-schooled. :)
Just my 2 cents.

I, too, was home schooled, and it wasn't bad. Several things I think about it.

I have never been able to meet anyone who went to public school here in the US with a better peripheral knowledge of science, history, math, English, or civics than me and those in my family.
Parents have the right to home school their kids if they wish.
There are some who abuse this right and don't educate their children properly.
Each system has good and bad aspects to it, and there's no real way to compare the two.
I feel like home schooling contributes to the diversity of a society, but home schooled people don't always socialize like they should.


Now I'd better run the spell checker on this. :D

Homeschool kids either act like they're way above you, or like your going to stab them.

On the other hand, a lot of them start high school classes at the age of ten or some ridiculous age

Homeschool kids either act like they're way above you, or like your going to stab them.

Everyone treats me like that, except my boyfriend, who was home-schooled.
Go figure.

i have known a lot of people who have been homeschooled, including myself at one point in my life. Homeschooling is not bad, neither is it that great.

When i was homeschooled, i was mostly at home yes, with my brothers and sisters, but i was socialized. If no one knows there are programs that are for homeschooled kids so they can be around other homeschooled kids, so they can have a feel for what school feels like. I went to what was called, CO-OP every friday for a whole school day.

Homeschool was good for me when i was little, since i was so distracted those days and i could not get any work done if i was. But when i started growing up, i felt the urge to go to a real school.

Another good thing is, was i could move at my own pace. Kind of like pace schools, but just homeschool. Most of time, if i learned how to do it, i didnt have to sit there for 50 minutes as the teacher would explain it to every student. Most of time, i could be done with school by noon, that's if i didn't want to do more work as well.

Homeschool in my opinion, is up for the parents of the kids to decide. If the parents have a thing against the schools, that's where they have their right to have them homeschooled or not. "Socialization" is a problem, but there are many ways for that to be solved. So therefore, i dont agree or disagree on the homeschooling matter.

Homeschool kids either act like they're way above you, or like your going to stab them.

On the other hand, a lot of them start high school classes at the age of ten or some ridiculous age

Obviously from someone who knows nothing about homeschool at all. My daughter attended the public school nightmare through 3rd grade. She neither acts like she's above other children NOR is she afraid of them. She isn't doing high school work at some absurd age, neither is she struggling to keep up with her peers. And yes, she does have peers. This garbage about public school being the best place for children to socialize is just that...garbage.

She is just like any other child, except I am the one taking FULL responsibility for her education. Not putting it off on to a governmental institution that sees her only for her dollar signs and funding.

As for parents needing to prove their skills enough to teach a child...who do you think taught that child to walk, talk, eat, manners, and in general be prepared TO GO to the aforementioned public school? This is a lie generated by teachers NOT doing their jobs in the first place and attempting to justify their positions and keep them.

If it anyone in this conversation has a haughty attitude about education, it is the instutional educational system itself. It has continually lied to parents by insisting that it is a "partnership for the child", when it is really them stealing away parental control.

If you don't believe me, try to check your child out of school without a dr's appointment. Or have a disagreement with the school administration about the disciplinary methods. Or even, sit through a parent/teacher conference...most teachers talk to parents like they areall 15 yr old high school drop outs who don't understand simple English.

*puts away her soapbox*

Homeschool kids either act like they're way above you, or like your going to stab them. <<< I know exactly what you mean. :D

IMO, home schooling sounds weird and isolationist, but it's less developed in South Africa than in quite a lot of countries. Lots of religious people want to keep the kids at home to indoctrinate them better. :rolleyes:

I believe that home schooling of kids with authority issues/problem kids should be encouraged, because quite frankly it keeps them out of the system and puts less strain on national resources. If it's homeschooling of an acceptable quality, it should also be allowed for kids who aren't problems: again, to keep costs down for the state.

Obviously from someone who knows nothing about homeschool at all. My daughter attended the public school nightmare through 3rd grade. She neither acts like she's above other children NOR is she afraid of them.

We don't have to know anything about homeschooling to know how home schooled kids have behaved towards us.

I always went to public school and enjoyed it very much. One of the main reasons that I think some parents homeschool their children is that they want them to be able to move at their own pace. When I was in school, the teachers would post the work on the chalk board so that we could start doing it if we understood, while the teacher was still explaining to the kids that didn't. If you were getting an A+ in the class, and you were always finishing your work early, they would move you up to the next grade in that class.
I know two people that were homeschooled, my cousins. They were kept at home for religious reasons and in my opinion, completely shut out from the world. I remember when one of them went off to college, he was shocked whenever someone had cursed or made a sexual comment.

Well think about it this way
Most rich home school kids usually have a better education and more 1 to 1 help then public school kids
However
In exchange most of them have troubles socializing

My cousin is homeschooled and he's a genius...he makes me feel dumb and won a scholarship to harvard, on the other hand he looks like he spent his whole life in military camp... :)
Sooo I think everything has a good side and bad side

If it's homeschooling of an acceptable quality, it should also be allowed for kids who aren't problems: again, to keep costs down for the state.

I hope that isn't your only justification for homeschooling. Homeschooling helps the state, providing extremely smart and intelligent people to be a boon to the community.

I think school is better because you can make more friends and you learn to work with and solve other peoples problems

It also gives a nice little mix of views making you a bit less of a complete fascist

Homeschooling helps the state, providing extremely smart and intelligent people to be a boon to the community.

Yeah....sure.
I'm tired of hearing homeschooled people being ballyhooed as this race of ubermenschen. I know homeschooled kids, and some of them were thoroughly broken.

I'm tired of hearing homeschooled people being ballyhooed as this race of ubermenschen.

I'm not saying that homeschooled people are way above everyone else's level. I just mean that homeschooling gives the child a LOT more time and opportunities for developing the intellect.

Yeah....sure.
I'm tired of hearing homeschooled people being ballyhooed as this race of ubermenschen. I know homeschooled kids, and some of them were thoroughly broken.
I am getting a bit sick of hearing how the homeschooled supermen are so superior to us poor public schooled children.

While public schools are taking a lot of heat these days and charter schools are less than perfect, I was wondering what people thought of home schooling?

I am personally against it as socialization is part of the learning process and statistically Home schooled kids are more likely to fail-out or drop in college. What are your thoughts?
HAHAHAHA
Actually homeschoolers almost always do better than public schoolers.
There was a Homeschool group college in virginia who beat oxford in debate. it is usually the Chinese, Indian, or homeschooled/private schooled children children who win arious academic competitions,internationally, nationally, and locally. Yes there is the probability that the child may fail, bot the ratios or the homeschoolers who fail compared to that of the public schoolers(american) who fail is almost histerical. I think that a parent should have every right to homeschool their child, at least until they are in high school. Having said that, Homeschooling also has its disadvantages; for instance, they do not always get the social education that they might need to make friends, yet if they are involved with sports or other community-involved events and activities they will develop the knowledge they will need.

Homeschooling is also beneficial to different personality types. An ADD child may do well because they will get the attention they need. Whereas many other children need to have that involvement with others in a classroom.

.: Homeschooling works for many people and is very useful, yet is not meant for everyone. The answer is to allow homeschholing, yet identify those children not getting adequate attention or education.

I'm not saying that homeschooled people are way above everyone else's level. I just mean that homeschooling gives the child a LOT more time and opportunities for developing the intellect.
Bullcrap I say. I've had far more opportunity to learn in a regular environment then I would ever have had if I was homeschooled, mostly due to extracurriculars like Mock Trial and Science Olympiad which simply don't exist for homeschoolers (without jumping through hoops, rather).

I consider home-schooling to be a last resort; if you are completely unable to find a decent school, or are unable to move to provide your kids with better educational opportunities, or cannot possibly afford to send your kids to a successful boarding school, then MAYBE it would be time to consider home schooling.

I almost completely agree! I would move homeschooling before boarding school though, unless the parent is unqualified to teach. I don't like the idea of a parent sending their kids off to be raised by someone else.

No one seems to take into account here the children that are home-schooled due to mental problems. Tourette's, autisim, ADHD, schitzophrenia, among others, make it difficult or impossible for them to participate in a normal school enviroment. To avoid going to a school full of other people with similar problems, sometimes it is best that these kids are home-schooled.

Several people, including myself, have discussed that there are children with special needs, whether they be that said child needs to learn at an accelerated pace, a slower pace, or simply a special set-up, and that these children would benefit from home-schooling.

Homeschoolers are not superior; just lucky to have parents who can educate them well.

I think school is better because you can make more friends and you learn to work with and solve other peoples problems

It also gives a nice little mix of views making you a bit less of a complete fascist
you can do the same in sports or other activities, public schooling is only one way to meet others.
so Bull.

I have done both, I finished out my last year and a half being homeschooled through a private school, then all the rest in public in a public school.
I have to say this junk about public schools properly socializing you is bull, if your definition of properly socializing is being placed with bullies and being insulted for scoring higher the tests than most of the class and having a teacher keep pushing you and a few others, not just in difficulty, but primarily in volume, edging on seven hours of work so you are so tired you don't want talk to any one(sorry, bad experiences in the 1st,5th,9th-11th grades), then sign me up for another 12 years of that.

My work was given to my mother by the school and their standards were at par with the states standards, and I had to go to classes at the school for various reasons, so I didn't have to take any remedial classes except in math, which is real complicated issue, and my personal feelings on it are borderline, if not, crackpot. But any way, back on topic; I wasn't completely isolated in while in home school, I still did things with my friends. Public schools are not all that great any way, it let my cousin graduate high school early, and he still can't read. I feel that I can say having experinced a bit of all three schooling styles that homeschooling through a private school is the best way to go.

Bullcrap I say. I've had far more opportunity to learn in a regular environment then I would ever have had if I was homeschooled, mostly due to extracurriculars like Mock Trial and Science Olympiad which simply don't exist for homeschoolers (without jumping through hoops, rather).
Those don’t exist where I go to school, anyway. A home-schooled kid would be just as well off.

Bullcrap I say. I've had far more opportunity to learn in a regular environment then I would ever have had if I was homeschooled, mostly due to extracurriculars like Mock Trial and Science Olympiad which simply don't exist for homeschoolers (without jumping through hoops, rather).
What do you mean, not available??? a homeschooler has every right to participate in mock trial and the science olympiad. The only reason they can't is because the stuid crappy government has banned them from participating.
SO SHUT UP!!!

I was home schooled basically my entire life until going to college, which I started at 16. I say my entire life because my two older brothers had also been home schooled and I participated with their lessons before I had officially started. I completed my first and second grade work quota in a single year so I was officially a grade ahead on all subjects (math, science, history, language, reading, etc, etc) and later on I advanced further in math, science and reading placing me two grades ahead in those subjects. Entering "high school" I picked up American Government and Constitutional Law in addition to Calculus, Physics, English and American Literature, World History. I picked up a SAT grade of 1490, graduated at 16, and immediately moved on to college.

To say that I excelled would be a profound understatement, I would frequently give lectures (yes, lectures) to my friends who quite frankly never heard of most of it. Somewhere along the way I independently began studying philosophy and put a larger personal emphasize on history (which massively interested me and still does to this day.) PE wasn't a problem as my family was renovating a house in my teen years and we did all the work ourselves. It took up a lot of my free time but I got a construction worker's body and the knowledge of exactly how NOT to make a house out of it. :D

Socially I got along just fine, I had a group of close friends and I tended to get around. No "problems" at all, I was outgoing, well spoken, and pretty damn smooth... I was actually commonly called a Playboy which I thought odd at the time because I wasn't given to sleeping around; I just came across that way. I got along just as well, or even better, with people much older then me as I did with people my own age. This pleasantly surprised a lot of people.

I heard my fair share of stories about the sad state of affairs in the local school system, at the time I certainly wasn't crushed that I wasn't a part of it.

Some people claim that home schooling consists of parents forcing their views on their children and not giving them a chance to see anything different. Definitely not so in my case. I got my first taste of debate from my Father who I really didn't agree with much of anything with (this in and of itself is NOT uncommon.) He had what I have come to call (and dislike) an "Ideology of Apathy." He was a sort of decidedly non-activist libertarian who didn't really know where he fell in the general sense of things. He didn't want anything to do with politics, organized religion, or anything like that, he believed people should just mind their own business and look after their own affairs, do what they think is right and shut the hell up. My mother was a sort of slightly conservative centrist that, while not really apathetic, simply didn't get involved. She was a bit more religious (Catholic actually) then my father but neither of them forced me to go to church or anything of the sort. My mother supported the fact that I was interested in philosophy, theology, and politics... my father didn't like that I was "getting involved" with that sort of thing. I didn't exactly listen. :D

What do you mean, not available??? a homeschooler has every right to participate in mock trial and the science olympiad. The only reason they can't is because the stuid crappy government has banned them from participating.
SO SHUT UP!!!
They don't have the ability to join public school (or private) teams, and so they tend to end up losing, badly, if they compete at all. You're only proving my point that you can learn more things in a public/private setting then if you're homeschooled.

I got along just as well, or even better, with people much older then me as I did with people my own age. This pleasantly surprised a lot of people.
Just one example of why home-schooling socializes better. Most kids are only socialized within their age group, but this guy wasn’t because he wasn’t forced into the rigid age-based (as opposed to merit-based) public school system.

They don't have the ability to join public school (or private) teams, and so they tend to end up losing, badly, if they compete at all. You're only proving my point that you can learn more things in a public/private setting then if you're homeschooled.
WHere I live they can. In CA, that crappy piece of crap government(I used to love it there), they banned it(I tend to view that as taking away human rights, but HEY). BTW I live in Idaho and go to a Private schoole(HS half of my school life, learned to play the violin at the age of 4, began to fead Dante's Divine Comedy at the age of 12, fell in lofe with philosophy, theology, and politics at the age of 13.) And, as aforemention, I have almost completely contrary views to my parents.

WHere I live they can. In CA, that crappy piece of crap government(I used to love it there), they banned it(I tend to view that as taking away human rights, but HEY). BTW I live in Idaho and go to a Private schoole(HS half of my school life, learned to play the violin at the age of 4, began to fead Dante's Divine Comedy at the age of 12, fell in lofe with philosophy, theology, and politics at the age of 13.) And, as aforemention, I have almost completely contrary views to my parents.
Schools don't allow them to join, generally. Not around here at least.

Hint: You're beginning to come off as arrogant. This board isn't a dick measuring contest. Look around and you'll find people much smarter then you.

I think school is better because you can make more friends and you learn to work with and solve other peoples problems


I think that a friend of mine put it best when he said that the only thing he learned in public schools was how to be bad.

Schools don't allow them to join, generally. Not around here at least.

Hint: You're beginning to come off as arrogant. This board isn't a dick measuring contest. Look around and you'll find people much smarter then you.
It is sad that schools won't let them join. It is probably just because of the corrupt liberal regime.(Oh and I am rather liberal.)

Schools don't allow them to join, generally. Not around here at least.

Hint: You're beginning to come off as arrogant. This board isn't a dick measuring contest. Look around and you'll find people much smarter then you.

Nice flame.




But don't worry... the mods agree with you ideologically, so you'll get a pass ;)

Hint: You're beginning to come off as arrogant. This board isn't a dick measuring contest. Look around and you'll find people much smarter then you.
DArn!!! I thought it was.... :(

Nice flame.




But don't worry... the mods agree with you ideologically, so you'll get a pass ;)
Flame? Nah, I didn't insult him, merely used the phrase 'dick measuring contest' to describe what he's doing. This board doesn't exist so we can sit around and puff out our chests as to our accomplishments in life. It's a helpful hint for someone new, not a flame.


Now, if I called you an "immigrant hating slimy scumbag ambulence chasing lawyer", that would be a flame :D

[note to mods: Not being serious at all]

I would like to be homeschooled because of all the crap at public school, but people who are homeschooled will probably be more stupid. Most parents are probably not the best teachers, seeing as they are very unlikely to be so well educated in so many areas of knowledge that they can successfully teach their children enough to go to college or get a high paying job. Also, the kids are probably going to care less because they are at home.


:mp5: :sniper: :mp5:
The Armed Republic Of Cruel Tyrany

People who are homeschooled will probably be more stupid.

You obviously haven't met many homeschoolers.

I think school is better because you can make more friends and you learn to work with and solve other peoples problems

More like how to BE other people's problems. I mean really, public schools these days are like breeding grounds for Anti Social (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder) behavior.

The charge that homeschoolers are unsocialized is a poor arguement against homschooling, but it is difficult to refute because "socialized" can mean different things to different people. For this reason, here are three answers to "homschoolers are unsocialized":

1) Unsocialized, or anti-social, is sometimes used to describe people who engage in activities that are harmful to those around them. Liars are anti-social, thieves are anti-social, serial killers are anti-social. In a previous time people like this may have been described as immoral or evil, but now morality is often seen as a matter of opinion, so they are instead described as anti-social. Saying that homeschoolers are prone to this sort of anti-social behaviour is baseless: if anything homeschoolers are better behaved than their peers in public school.

2) Unsocialized is commonly used to mean the inability to get along with people. I find it humorous that people often use this as a defence of public school. The implication is that public school is more about helping kids make friends than about teaching them. If the purpose of public school is to help kids make friends, we ought to get rid of the teachers, the desks and the schedules and let kids just hang out. Schools in which things like teachers, desks and schedules are minimal or non-existant are usually called homeschools, and the fact that homeschooled students generally perform well acedemically doesn't say much for teachers, desks and schedules.

3) Socialized can mean the process by which individuals are conformed to the norms of society. Individuality, creativity, free-thinking and entrepreneurship are replaced with allegiance to the all-knowing group with the intent of churning out good workers who do not question accepted wisdom and are easily infuenced by authority figures. In this sense, homeschoolers are anti-social.

As a teacher, we seem to notice that students who come from home-schooled areas seem to, as a majority, have poor social skills. As for testing, they are mandated by law to test in Tennessee, therefore they go to a nearby school and test with those students, without penalty to the teacher (in regards to test scores). Some students do great, others tend to flop. I have a friend who had a home schooled student go to the school or the last semester to get scholarships. Also, teachers under 9th grade must have a high schol diploma. All others above that must have a bachelor's degree. nonetheless, it's 6 of 1, a 1/2 dozen of the other.

I will begin with my story. If you wish, you can skip straight to my arguments, but they'll make more sense and you are less likely to make a dumb counterargument if you read this first:

I was homeschooled for much of my elementary school. In 1st grade I went to school because both my parents had to work. I liked it okay, but I was bored a lot because I was top of the class. Then in 3rd grade they wanted to socialize me. This time I really loved it, despite the classwork being positively inane. The goal was not reached, though; I was generally friendly with the other kids, but my friendships never lasted more than a month or so. There just wasn't anyone I really related to. I almost went to 4th grade, but by that time I'd met another homeschooled kid over the summer and wanted to be able to play with her during the day, so I decided not to. The end of "4th grade" was when I started getting annoyed with homeschooling. I didn't like how it was structured, the fact that I was required to practice both guitar and piano, and most especially the way that my parents tended to make things part of my schoolwork as soon as my interest in them waned. However, that summer my mom gave me the summer off for the first time - it was just "all the time" before then - and that might be part of why I didn't go to 5th grade either, having had a break, because I don't really remember any other reasons. After going through "5th grade", though, I was totally sick of homeschooling and told my mom I wanted to go to school. Though I don't remember it and possibly didn't know of it, my stepdad apparently advocated for me to go to 6th grade too. In any case I encountered no resistance from my mom, who said she thought it was a good idea.

When school started, I was delighted. I loved school. The other kids were horrible to me, which hadn't happened in elementary school even though 3rd grade was many of the same people, but I didn't really care because I had my best friend whom I'd met the previous spring and had never had or wanted a lot of friends at once - I just loved having classes and teachers and page upon page of science and math to read and write on. When the social side of things got ridiculous or dangerous I brought it to the administration, and I was never done any real harm. By the end of the year I had one semi-friend at school and so I didn't try to transfer schools, figuring it was on an upward trend. In 7th grade it did get better - I developed a few more school friends, a talkback attitude for the jerks, and a neutral peace with my so-spectacularly-failed crush from the previous year and his friends. But I could tell I just wasn't interested in hanging around for another year, because while things were getting less negative, they weren't going to get positive. I went to the school fair and filled out a transfer form. In retrospect, leaving was a better idea than I knew because many of my former friends have gotten into bad stuff since.

In 8th grade I walked into my new, K-12 magnet school. The second person I saw in the building became my friend within the day. Things only got better. The people there were awesome, the dramas were minimal, and the classes were awesome, except for math. Math was the same math I'd done the year before, but I didn't learn that some 7th and 8th grade students took high school classes until too far into the year. 9th grade was similarly great for my social and academic lives, and I was recommended into a higher level math class, so finally I was learning math at school. Since starting school, I have always preferred the school year to the summer and I'm looking forward to starting 10th grade.

My opinion, then, is this:

Whether or not homeschooling is advisable, depends entirely on the person and their disposition toward learning, the family, and the opportunities available. In all the cases I have seen, homeschooling has resulted in a child who academically excels by ordinary standards, with few to no detriments - but in all of those cases the kid loved to learn. For example, my primary two forms of entertainment were the TV show Bill Nye the Science Guy (until it got canceled :( ; then I watched Star Trek: Voyager), and reading. One summer day I remember I read 5 books for 8 1/2 hours. Another commonality between these cases is that the parents were willing to interact with their child and treat them as smart. I learned what R.S.V.P. stands for from my mom and how to draw in perspective from my stepdad. Even my dad showed me a little algebra when I was 8. I learned countless vocabulary words from talking to my parents about various topics.

Homeschool needn't be like school. Some homeschoolers I've known have had that kind of experience, with assignments and grading and standardized tests and the only real difference being a choice of when and where to do the work. Some of them never did any formal schoolwork, and just lived their life learning things naturally. I mostly did the latter, though my parents did assign study to me sometimes if I didn't decide by myself I wanted to do something like it - which meant my assigned work ended up being music practice, keeping a journal, and math CD-ROMs. Also I had a little bit of formal instruction prior to 1st grade, learning carrying and long multiplication and division from my mom and writing paragraphs on sections I would read from a DK history book. But anyway, there are many forms homeschool can take, and like I said, they all seem to be wildly successful given involved parents and a desire to learn.

If the question is whether homeschooling should be legal, then my answer is a RESOUNDING yes. Advisability, as I said, is dependent on many factors. I would also stress that the child should be given the option of going to school and aware they have some say in the matter. The extent to which homeschooling is useful depends highly on the knowledge of the parents; one should keep the objective of avoiding stagnancy in mind when deciding each year whether to continue homeschool. I believe that no "teacher evaluation" is needed because really, the format of many homeschooling philosophies makes it so there is hardly a formal "teacher" to begin with. I don't remember taking a standardized test in my life outside of public school, but god knows I didn't learn much there until 8th grade.

You might be tempted to say that basing so much evidence on myself makes for a fallacious argument, but all of the people I know who have been homeschooled and everyone I've talked to who knows a homeschooler has said almost the exact same things of them. So, take that as you will.

I'd like to direct everyone's attention to these studies that show that homeschooled kids:

(1) significantly outperform their non-homeschooled counterparts on standardized tests, regardless of race or gender;

(2) outperform their non-homeschooled counterparts by the same large extent, regardless of the level of state regulation; and

(3) regarding "socialization", are regularly involved in an average of 5.2 activities outside of the home, with 98% involved in at least two out of the home activities.

So they're definitely better educated and probably more involved and adjusted than the public-schooled students.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp


Since I keep hearing a bunch of unsupported claims that homeschooled kids aren't properly socialized (a total myth; i encourage the reading of my post on the first page), can't perform academically, can't succeed in this or that... I would love to see what you can produce to support your claims.




Also, if you visit http://nces.ed.gov/ , you can see what the demographics of homeschooling families are. You'll also see that the plurality of homeschooling parents do so for environmental and academic reasons.

I'd like to direct everyone's attention to these studies that show that homeschooled kids:

(1) significantly outperform their non-homeschooled counterparts on standardized tests, regardless of race or gender;

(2) outperform their non-homeschooled counterparts by the same large extent, regardless of the level of state regulation; and

(3) regarding "socialization", are regularly involved in an average of 5.2 activities outside of the home, with 98% involved in at least two out of the home activities.

So they're definitely better educated and probably more involved and adjusted than the public-schooled students.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp


Since I keep hearing a bunch of unsupported claims that homeschooled kids aren't properly socialized (a total myth; i encourage the reading of my post on the first page), can't perform academically, can't succeed in this or that... I would love to see what you can produce to support your claims.




Also, if you visit http://nces.ed.gov/ , you can see what the demographics of homeschooling families are. You'll also see that the plurality of homeschooling parents do so for environmental and academic reasons.
The achievement argument is a tricky one. How are we to know that they wouldn't achieve just as well in a regular setting? How are we to know that the sample isn't hopelessly skewed towards intelligent people (much as someone taking a survey of all the people in an elite private school would be lead to claim that all charter school students are in the 90th percentile of school children etc etc), which it most likely is?

As a teacher, we seem to notice that students who come from home-schooled areas seem to, as a majority, have poor social skills. As for testing, they are mandated by law to test in Tennessee, therefore they go to a nearby school and test with those students, without penalty to the teacher (in regards to test scores). Some students do great, others tend to flop. I have a friend who had a home schooled student go to the school or the last semester to get scholarships. Also, teachers under 9th grade must have a high schol diploma. All others above that must have a bachelor's degree. nonetheless, it's 6 of 1, a 1/2 dozen of the other.

This reminds me of a headline I once saw in "The Onion". It read, "Pope forgives alter boys for being molested."

When I first switched to a public school from a private school in the middle of the school year in 4th grade, I would be the snot beat out of me on a daily basis. My teacher at the time (perhaps you would get along with her?) said that the problem was that I wasn't socializing properly-- "does not work/play well with others" is what I think would recur on my report card. Obviously, it wasn't the fault of the animals who beat on me because I was new.

I don't know what things are like in Tennessee, but if you think that the other kids in your class are typically socially healthy, I question your ability to discern what constitutes poor social skills.

The achievement argument is a tricky one. How are we to know that they wouldn't achieve just as well in a regular setting? How are we to know that the sample isn't hopelessly skewed towards intelligent people (much as someone taking a survey of all the people in an elite private school would be lead to claim that all charter school students are in the 90th percentile of school children etc etc), which it most likely is?

Answer: because if you read the survey methods, you know that the numbers are reliable.

Besides, if these numbers were no good, then there should definitely be articulable data to suggest to the contrary, right? What? There's not?

More like how to BE other people's problems. I mean really, public schools these days are like breeding grounds for Anti Social (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder) behavior.

well put

But don't worry... the mods agree with you ideologically, so you'll get a pass ;)
Hail the NS Freedom Pact!

Couldn’t resist. :D

Flame? Nah, I didn't insult him, merely used the phrase 'dick measuring contest' to describe what he's doing. This board doesn't exist so we can sit around and puff out our chests as to our accomplishments in life. It's a helpful hint for someone new, not a flame.

Well, it could definitely be me since I keep getting dinged for flaming when that's the furthest thing from my mind. But it sounded like a flame to me! :)


Now, if I called you an "immigrant hating slimy scumbag ambulence chasing lawyer", that would be a flame :D

First of all, as I've already said, I have the upmost respect for all of our country's legal immigrants.

Secondly, I'm not an ambulance chaser; in fact, I usually get there BEFORE the ambulance. ;)

I'm all for homeschooling, as I see public education today as a tool of the State.

On the off-chance that someday I have any of my own (*shivers*), I'll definitely homeschool them until High School. By then, you can only hope that you've given them the proper toolset to deal with difficult social situations.

Answer: because if you read the survey methods, you know that the numbers are reliable.

Besides, if these numbers were no good, then there should definitely be articulable data to suggest to the contrary, right? What? There's not?
No doubt they are. The question is is this because of homeschooling or because homeschoolers tend to be naturally smart (I'm loath to use that word, but eh).

I would like to add that in public school your more likely to build strong bonds (in my experience) you get into a group of friends who usually are in most of your classes which you will stick with for the rest of your life because you have so many memories and the fact that you are there for each other though bad points such a bullying

I must also mention that "bad" parents usually home school there kids so that know one knows

And another thing is most internet people get bullied for being the skinny nerds we are (though I have never been bullied I know people that have)

While public schools are taking a lot of heat these days and charter schools are less than perfect, I was wondering what people thought of home schooling?

I am personally against it as socialization is part of the learning process and statistically Home schooled kids are more likely to fail-out or drop in college. What are your thoughts?


I would never do it myself, but I can see how some parents might, living in Texas with a school system that sucks @#$%.

I must also mention that "bad" parents usually home school there kids so that know one knows

That's a serious accusation; what is your basis for it?

No doubt they are. The question is is this because of homeschooling or because homeschoolers tend to be naturally smart (I loath to use that word, but eh).

Good point.

Well, I saw somewhere in there that kids homeschooled score at the 59th percentile after their first year of homeschooling, and the overall average is in the 86th percentile, or something like that. That seems to indicate an upward trend.

Also, their performance measures don't really move with the level of the parents' education. I'm not sure if that adds any insight.

But yeah, maybe parents with smart kids are just more inclined to homeschool? It's a possibility.

Good point.

Well, I saw somewhere in there that kids homeschooled score at the 59th percentile after their first year of homeschooling, and the overall average is in the 86th percentile, or something like that. That seems to indicate an upward trend.

Also, their performance measures don't really move with the level of the parents' education. I'm not sure if that adds any insight.

But yeah, maybe parents with smart kids are just more inclined to homeschool? It's a possibility.
Very much of one, considering that the regular school system tends to have a nasty habit of throwing smart kids to the dogs (or focusing them in on one or two highly competative schools).

Answer: because if you read the survey methods, you know that the numbers are reliable.

Besides, if these numbers were no good, then there should definitely be articulable data to suggest to the contrary, right? What? There's not?

That paper really "proves" nothing. The parents "chose" to have thier kids enter the testing => not a random sampling. A good portion of the homeschoolers I've met would knock those numbers way down to about equal w/ the "public schoolers". My Brother in Law (exclusively homeschooled) has about a 5th grade education. Another member of my wifes former HS group is barely literate. Others I've know have done quite well.

As I've said previously, it is all about the parents. Every exclusively homeschooled individual I've met has had problems dealing w/ society outside of their clicks. Conflict (hostile or not) being one of them.

Home schooling yes or no?

NO. :mad:

I would like to add that in public school your more likely to build strong bonds (in my experience) you get into a group of friends who usually are in most of your classes which you will stick with for the rest of your life because you have so many memories and the fact that you are there for each other though bad points such a bullying
Where did you go to school and where is this magical land?
Anyway, you are still only socializing with those very near your age.

That paper really "proves" nothing. The parents "chose" to have thier kids enter the testing => not a random sampling. A good portion of the homeschoolers I've met would knock those numbers way down to about equal w/ the "public schoolers". My Brother in Law (exclusively homeschooled) has about a 5th grade education. Another member of my wifes former HS group is barely literate. Others I've know have done quite well.

As I've said previously, it is all about the parents. Every exclusively homeschooled individual I've met has had problems dealing w/ society outside of their clicks. Conflict (hostile or not) being one of them.
This is probably a good example why only parents with an adequate education should be homeschooling their children.

That's a serious accusation; what is your basis for it?

remember those parents who starved there kids:

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkyJmZnYmVsN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2NDQ4NTM1

Home schooling, like so many other things in life, is fine with some people, but utterly and completely horrible with others. Some kids are meant for home schooling, some aren't, it's as simple as that. I enjoyed my time in my local public school system (except middle school which everyone hates, and that's not totally the school's fault either.) But I know some kids who were homeschooled who were decidedly not meant for a public high school.

Although some oversight in what the students are being taught whilst they are being homeschooled might be a decent idea. I knew someone who was only taught spelling for a whole year, just to crush at the spelling bee. I crushed him, but hey, what's two years of your life? :D

That paper really "proves" nothing. The parents "chose" to have thier kids enter the testing => not a random sampling. A good portion of the homeschoolers I've met would knock those numbers way down to about equal w/ the "public schoolers". My Brother in Law (exclusively homeschooled) has about a 5th grade education. Another member of my wifes former HS group is barely literate. Others I've know have done quite well.

As I've said previously, it is all about the parents. Every exclusively homeschooled individual I've met has had problems dealing w/ society outside of their clicks. Conflict (hostile or not) being one of them.

So, in other words, you can't back up your assertions with data.

This is probably a good example why only parents with an adequate education should be homeschooling their children.

And that doesn't always guarantee it. My MIL has a MA in music. She got sick and , having the "public school is the debbil" attitude of many HS parents, didn't enroll my wife or her brother in public school. My wife kept up on reading (enough to get her GED, she was older) but her brother just stopped.

She regrets that decision now.

My wife and I argued about it before we got married. I asked one question. "Will you exclusively educate the kids to the level that I expect?"

Mine will be going to public school and we'll continue to teach them at home.

remember those parents who starved there kids:

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkyJmZnYmVsN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2NDQ4NTM1
One instance of unbalanced people is not data, unless that’s what was asked for.

No doubt they are. The question is is this because of homeschooling or because homeschoolers tend to be naturally smart (I'm loath to use that word, but eh).

I firmly believe that the average member of the human race is, despite MANY voices to the contrary, not a total imbecile. Most people (excluding people biologically disabled to that effect) are capable of intellectual advancement and even excellence if given the opportunity to develop. Public schools indoctrinate and enforce mediocrity, anyone who rises is punished by his peers and anyone who falls behind is coddled to no end. Home schooling on the other hand offers the child the opportunity to rise as high as possible as an individual and not as "just another kid." Quite simply, one on one is infinitely better then one on 10/20/30/etc, etc...

So, in other words, you can't back up your assertions with data.

90% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Where did you go to school and where is this magical land?
Anyway, you are still only socializing with those very near your age.

so you call it a magical land because I have friends?

you do socialize with other ages after all schools do have up to 4 different years in them

That paper really "proves" nothing. The parents "chose" to have thier kids enter the testing => not a random sampling. A good portion of the homeschoolers I've met would knock those numbers way down to about equal w/ the "public schoolers". My Brother in Law (exclusively homeschooled) has about a 5th grade education. Another member of my wifes former HS group is barely literate. Others I've know have done quite well.

As I've said previously, it is all about the parents. Every exclusively homeschooled individual I've met has had problems dealing w/ society outside of their clicks. Conflict (hostile or not) being one of them.

Two things:

First, everyone who participates in ANY survey chooses to participate. (Then again, maybe you're from China and it doesn't work that way over there. I don't know.)

Secondly, the families asked to participate were chosen randomly--as would also be expected from any legitimate survey.

Lastly, the results were committed to disclosure BEFORE the test results were known.

Basically, this was as accurate a test as was possible.



And again, you keep making these blanket assertions without data to support your premises. That may fly in your public ed. classes, but in the free market of ideas, you've gotta back up what you say, m'man.


Or didn't they teach you that in school?

One instance of unbalanced people is not data, unless that’s what was asked for.

what I mean is home schooled children are more venerable to abuse

remember those parents who starved there kids:

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkyJmZnYmVsN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2NDQ4NTM1

That's an isolated incident; you said that bad parents usually homeschool their kids. I would tend to think that homeschooling parents are usually among the best parents because they take a very active role in their children's upbringing.

90% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Really? ;)

what I mean is home schooled children are more venerable to abuse

If that was true, you would be able to support that with data, right?

That's an isolated incident; you said that bad parents usually homeschool their kids. I would tend to think that homeschooling parents are usually among the best parents because they take a very active role in their children's upbringing.

so your saying that school children’s parents don't take an active role in parenting

I suppose you think that because I went to school I come from a broken home and have a drug addiction right?

so you call it a magical land because I have friends?

you do socialize with other ages after all schools do have up to 4 different years in them
The way you describe the friendships formed in high school is not realistic at all. Most people get out of touch with their high school friends and most people would never even consider many “friends” they had in high school friend by standards they adopt as adults.

The difference in age is not that great.
In elementary school kids rarely hang out with anybody outside of their grade, same in middle school. As for high school, the average fourteen year old is not very different from the average eighteen year old emotionally or intellectually, in my experience.

so your saying that school children’s parents don't take an active role in parenting

I suppose you think that because I went to school I come from a broken home and have a drug addiction right?

No, I didn't mean to imply that and I'm sorry if you took offense. There are many great parents who send their children to public school AND take an active role in their children's education. What I meant is that it is very difficult for a parent to homeschool without taking an active role in their children's education.

If that was true, you would be able to support that with data, right?

no studies have been done because simply children having no contact with teachers who can stop child abuse would point to one result don't you think

The way you describe the friendships formed in high school is not realistic at all. Most people get out of touch with their high school friends and most people would never even consider many “friends” they had in high school friend by standards they adopt as adults.

The difference in age is not that great.
In elementary school kids rarely hang out with anybody outside of their grade, same in middle school. As for high school, the average fourteen year old is not very different from the average eighteen year old emotionally or intellectually, in my experience.

usually you would of made lifelong friends before high school

no studies have been done because simply children having no contact with teachers who can stop child abuse would point to one result don't you think

I don't.

First of all, it's great when teachers can intervene and stop child abuse. But it wouldn't hardly happen if it was just that easy.

Secondly, it's just really irresponsible to make those kinds of absolute assertions based on anecdotal hypotheses.

Lastly, if there was the disparity that you're describing, surely there would be SOME articulable evidence that there's a chronic problem. But there's not. I think that says something.

so your saying that school children’s parents don't take an active role in parenting

I suppose you think that because I went to school I come from a broken home and have a drug addiction right?


Actually, I think you came from a dysfunctional home and use drugs recreationally.

I would think that the process is as important as the result. If homeschooling works, then it works.

I firmly believe that the average member of the human race is, despite MANY voices to the contrary, not a total imbecile. Most people (excluding people biologically disabled to that effect) are capable of intellectual advancement and even excellence if given the opportunity to develop. Public schools indoctrinate and enforce mediocrity, anyone who rises is punished by his peers and anyone who falls behind is coddled to no end. Home schooling on the other hand offers the child the opportunity to rise as high as possible as an individual and not as "just another kid." Quite simply, one on one is infinitely better then one on 10/20/30/etc, etc...
If that was true, then you wouldn't see the kids who fall behind fall behind, and those who are smart move ahead in public schools. Believe what you wish, but remember that not everyone has the time or the money to homeschool their children.

no studies have been done because simply children having no contact with teachers who can stop child abuse would point to one result don't you think

Teachers stopping child abuse? You have got to be freakin' kidding me. When I was a kid I knew this guy who got his head smashed against a wall and the guidance counselor told him to "shake hands" with the dumb brute that did it too him. He went home, told his parents, they took him to the hospital and they said he had a concussion.

Kids are getting the shit kicked out of them right under these people's noses and you can honestly sit there and talk like that?

I homeschool my girls, a lot of people at church homeschool thier kids too. We have a homeschool co-op where there are classes for the kids to take and if you aren't great at a subject one of the other parents can help you and your kids.

I don't think our state has an acceptable system for making sure the kids are learning anything though. There is a family down the street that homeschools thier kids and the 8 year old is illiterate, and the 15 year old is on a 6th grade level. I have been trying to get them to come to the co-op for free help but they aren't interested :(

my 4 year old is at a 1st grade level and my 2 year old is doing 4 year old work so I think I am doing okay. It would be hard to put them in public school now because they would be soo far ahead. I went to public school and read at a college level in the 7th grade while everyone else was at a 3rd grade level, trying to dumb down for the work was horrible, I don't think I could make my kids do that.

And that doesn't always guarantee it. My MIL has a MA in music. She got sick and , having the "public school is the debbil" attitude of many HS parents, didn't enroll my wife or her brother in public school. My wife kept up on reading (enough to get her GED, she was older) but her brother just stopped.

She regrets that decision now.
IMHO, if you aren't able to homeschool due to injury or illness, you should have money set aside to afford a tutor (to substitute). If you don't, it's probably crimina now, isn't it? Homeschooling is really a better idea for those families who can afford it. It doesn't sound cheap to me, if it's done correctly.

My wife and I argued about it before we got married. I asked one question. "Will you exclusively educate the kids to the level that I expect?"

Mine will be going to public school and we'll continue to teach them at home.
That's a great alternative to homeschooling. I think parent's who don't supplement their child's generic, unpersonalized public education are doing their children a terrible disservice. Sounds like your kids should do a lot better than most of their peers with your guidance. Too many parents don't think they can find the time to do this.

If that was true, then you wouldn't see the kids who fall behind fall behind, and those who are smart move ahead in public schools. Believe what you wish, but remember that not everyone has the time or the money to homeschool their children.

I never suggested that everyone should be home schooled, never in my life let alone on this forum. I fully realize that such a proposition would be delusional. I simply dislike it when people who have little or no knowledge of the matter come to places like this and pretending that they do.

Kids are getting the shit kicked out of them right under these people's noses and you can honestly sit there and talk like that?

do tell what you would do about it?

and I suppose you would say that all those teachers and helpers don't do anything?

there is also the point that it is human nature to bully how would a home schooled child cope with bullying in the workplace? how would a home schooled person have adequate experience on what bullying is?

The only justifiable home schooling would be where you have the kind of child
with a voracious appetite for knowledge and very high levels of intelligence
If you also are able to cater to that and would not only need to be very
well educated yourself but a bit of a renaissance man or woman.It is important to remember that no matter who you are, you can always learn something from the lowest common denominator, and a student with the "voracious appetite for knowledge" can find ways to do that anywhere (believe me, I attended a small-city public school where I took 12 classes a day in a 7-class system; it can be done). It's all about the motivation of the student as to what they get out of any school system.

do tell what you would do about it?

...there is also the point that it is human nature to bully how would a home schooled child cope with bullying in the workplace? how would a home schooled person have adequate experience on what bullying is?

I'll tell you what I would do. I would protect my child because I am not helpless.

Are you seriously telling me that it's for the best that kids get the snot beat out of them?

Here's my non-rhetorical question that I would like answered. How is it that you're so worried about kids getting abused at home by their parents because that's so terrible, but when kids get the snot beat out of them at school by their peers, it's a healthy part of growing up that teaches them early how to take a beating as an adult?

NO. This is coming from somebody who's been in home school since 1997...

It totally destroys any social life you may have had. No, no, no, no, NO. No home school. Ugh.

I'll tell you what I would do. I would protect my child because I am not helpless.

Are you seriously telling me that it's for the best that kids get the snot beat out of them?

Here's my non-rhetorical question that I would like answered. How is it that you're so worried about kids getting abused at home by their parents because that's so terrible, but when kids get the snot beat out of them at school by their peers, it's a healthy part of growing up that teaches them early how to take a beating as an adult?

the child has lots of opportunity’s to make friends and fight back but they don't

it might be because your home schooled thus when you do go to school you have no friends

Child abuse is a lot worse than bullying

In response to a few things I have read so far. There are problems with home schooling. The socialization aspect has been often sited, however, education journals seem to agree that there is no appreciable difference between traditionally educated students and their home schooled counterparts (though it is interesting to note that the majority of home school students return to the public school system for some schooling later on). There is a worry within the educational community about the lack of knowledge parents have in teaching their children. Again, a literature review shows that when it comes to using educational practices, parents who are home schooling will start using most techniques used by professional trained teachers, but it does take them longer to adopt said techniques, and there is the worry that the parents might be weak in certain subject areas, especially math and science. But the main concern is with special needs children, as parents are not often trained to handle or know how to handle children with learning disabilities or other special education needs.

Yes, they have raised their children, but teaching a child to walk is vastly different from formal education. The child is disposed to one, and usually somewhat hostile to the other.

There is also the concern of lack of access to special equipment, areas, and specialists that schools have access to, but individuals do not. This includes, but not limited to, science equipment or chemicals that are restricted do to state or federal laws. Also, industries and universities are often open to schools, but not families. For sports, any non-popular sport (such as track and field) will often times not have the equivalent public team, or at least at the secondary level. Baseball, basketball, and football are well represented in civics teams, and they do travel enough to play, sometimes, but the non-popular sports, and band music, can be harder to access; if the child is so disposed of course.

And then we have the lack of access to others with different points of views as instructors, but as a difference in points of view is often citied as a reason for home schooling in the first place, I am not sure if that is a legitimate concern or not.

So home schooling does have issues, but so does the public school system. So what of the results? We have been told in this thread that home school students regularly outperform their public school brethren. This is true on standardized tests, and it is also interesting to note that researchers have found no real correlation with socio-economic factors in who decides to home school, though more ELS learners are in the public schools. However, I found it interesting that in a study conducted by colleges on which was more successful in the first year of college, there was no significant difference except one, home school students had, on average, a higher ACT score. For everything else, credits, retention, GPA, satisfaction, etc, there is no difference between the performance of home schooling and public schooling.

The conclusion then? Like I said, there are problems with both schooling systems, but it seems to rest far more on the individual student and the student’s teachers, on whether home schooling or public schooling is better for the individual student.

I usually establish a first name basis for the relationship with their teachers early in the year. They know my wife and I are very interested parents and we pay close attention. We both go to the back to school nights and both go to the parent-teacher conferences. I've found things go much more smoothly when they know they have an involved parent, so far. It eliminates a lot of the petty misunderstanding crap.
While I dont feel qualified to provide the sole education for my children, I am happy with a very progressive and modern school system, foward thinking teachers and administrators. The school system here played a big part in where we bought our home. And I think our positive attitude, involvement and support is giving a good boost to my kid's education.

I REALLY wish we had more parents like you to deal with. It would make our jobs as teachers oh so much easier. It really would. We don’t want to talk to parents like they are 15 year olds, but often times we only get parents who are interested in the school because we teachers dared failed or disciplined THEIR child, and trying to explain why as a rational adult doesn’t seem to work out too well.

Teachers stopping child abuse? You have got to be freakin' kidding me. When I was a kid I knew this guy who got his head smashed against a wall and the guidance counselor told him to "shake hands" with the dumb brute that did it too him. He went home, told his parents, they took him to the hospital and they said he had a concussion.
*sighs* Teachers DO stop child abuse. We're likely to be the first to notice something is wrong, not to mention that every state has a reporting law on the books. If we suspect ANYTHING we have to report it.

One more bit of work for us, but one that might make all the difference.

I'm home schooled. I have been home schooled since the 5th grade and I'm currently in the 12th. I find myself to have greater intellectual capabilities than other people my age (especially around where I live. The schools are HORRIBLE), as well as adequate and sometimes superior social habits. I'm the product of a successful home schooling system. Most parents home school their children in a VERY religious fashion, but thankfully that was not the case with my parents, so I have developed quite nicely.

While I have missed out on a lot of social interaction I have never needed it, nor have I wanted it and that's is probably why I'm polite and I speak with correct grammar and pronunciation and have no kind of interaction problems. I excel in linguistics, many sciences of varying fields, and history. While I am only mediocre in mathematics, I know enough to get by in life without too much trouble. People here seem to have a poor attitude towards home schooling, it bothers me slightly but I can see why people would, considering how wacky the religious parents are. The best thing about home schooling: You get to be yourself and know who you are earlier than most people instead of constantly trying to impress other people and be who you aren't. I'm comfortable with myself and other people agree that I'm likeable and loveable :p .

HAHAHAHA
Actually homeschoolers almost always do better than public schoolers.
There was a Homeschool group college in virginia who beat oxford in debate. it is usually the Chinese, Indian, or homeschooled/private schooled children children who win arious academic competitions,internationally, nationally, and locally. Yes there is the probability that the child may fail, bot the ratios or the homeschoolers who fail compared to that of the public schoolers(american) who fail is almost histerical.

I sure hope you weren't home schooled. You'd be an embarrassment to your parents

That's an isolated incident; you said that bad parents usually homeschool their kids. I would tend to think that homeschooling parents are usually among the best parents because they take a very active role in their children's upbringing.

so your saying that school children’s parents don't take an active role in parenting

I suppose you think that because I went to school I come from a broken home and have a drug addiction right?

Not saying that either view is correct or incorrect....
why is it that when a statement like Spartiala's is made someone has to return with saying a person in a diffrent situation is automatically in the extreme opposite condition. Nothing like that is said at all. That kind of argument is automatic nay-saying. Note the term "among". This points out that there are also parents in that "best" catagory (however that may be defined) who don't homeschool.

Being fair CTP's position and referance to the NJ incident makes the implication that all homeschool kids are abused, or, as he pointed out, more vulnerable. Is he saying that just because someone wasn't homeschooled they had less chanced of being abused? Maybe, but that certainally isn't the case as there are abuse cases all over that cross every possible demographic (except maybe the non-abused demographic ;) )

NO. This is coming from somebody who's been in home school since 1997...

It totally destroys any social life you may have had. No, no, no, no, NO. No home school. Ugh.

Potaria... I really think that you base your ideology and your politics far to much on your dumb fuck father. Honestly, the more posts of yours that I read the more I'm convinced that you are a direct product of his parenting in the worst possible way. You stopped looking "open minded" a long, long time ago.

*sighs* Teachers DO stop child abuse. We're likely to be the first to notice something is wrong, not to mention that every state has a reporting law on the books. If we suspect ANYTHING we have to report it.

One more bit of work for us, but one that might make all the difference.

Yes Teachers sometimes stop abuse. But so do neighbors, pastors, coaches (non-school), relatives, and many others. Preventing abuse isn't exclusive to teachers and when you look at all the abuse cases that get by the teachers, they are not any more (or less) likely to be the ones to notice and stop abuse.

BTW I don't see where abuse by peers is really any different thatn abuse by parents or other adults. Abuse is abuse

Yes Teachers sometimes stop abuse. But so do neighbors, pastors, coaches (non-school), relatives, and many others. Preventing abuse isn't exclusive to teachers and when you look at all the abuse cases that get by the teachers, they are not any more (or less) likely to be the ones to notice and stop abuse.

BTW I don't see where abuse by peers is really any different thatn abuse by parents or other adults. Abuse is abuse
It would be interesting to see which group catches them more often. But as teachers see these kids every day, we're much more likely to see a pattern.

And yes, abuse is abuse and most teachers do stop fights. However, no matter how you may feel as a student, we don't know everything, really. Kids are usually guilty of assuming that teachers can read minds and see what's going on inside of them. So they feel that the teacher not only knows of the bullying, but condones it.

And when asked if they ever reported the actions, many kids trot out the same line I used in my school days, "Why bother? The teachers know and don't care. They wouldn't do anything."

Having said that, there are teachers who do not do what they are supposed to be doing and who do just brush off kids. It's not a perfect profession filled with perfect people, as much as we wished we were.

Ok now my thoughts and feelings on the subject (as opposed to responding to others)

When looking at homeschooling at the global level (that is to say not singleing out any one country) neither home schooling nor public schooling are better than the other as a whole. One is better for some and the other works best of others.

Now looking at the American public school system, I feel a little diffrently. Please note that I am talking generalities. There are good, even extrememly great public schools out there. But when there are so many schools that are passing children on for fear of "harming their self-esteem" even though they don't have the knowledge, then what really is the point of having them in school or at least with pretending to teach them? A school like that is just a glorified, government mandated day care center.

*IF* the parent(s) is/are willing to truely put the time into ensuring their child's education (and can afford to in terms of time and/or money), then Homeschooling could make a world of diffrence.

Also by personal experiance I know a woman who homeschools her children. She makes full use of her Co-Op and any available material. Her son plays D&D with my group every other week and can socialize woderfully (at age 12) with the 18 year playing as well as us 35 year olds.

All in all there are, I agree parents who should not homeschool their kids, for one reason or another, but there are also teachers out there that should never be allowed near a classroom as well. It all evens out and the parent, the one ultimately responsible for the child's wellbeing, has to make the best decision for the child.

Oh and one major point to the proponents of government run public schools.

In Karl Marx's The Communist Manifesto, He had 10 points for bringing about a true communist society. Number 10 was free public education controlled by the government.

Think on that.

Oh and one major point to the proponents of government run public schools.

In Karl Marx's The Communist Manifesto, He had 10 points for bringing about a true communist society. Number 10 was free public education controlled by the government.

Think on that.

Free, certainly. Mandatory, though?

Oh and one major point to the proponents of government run public schools.

In Karl Marx's The Communist Manifesto, He had 10 points for bringing about a true communist society. Number 10 was free public education controlled by the government.

Think on that.
Are you trying to suggest that public school are attempting to turn our communists and that only home schooled students are not being indoctrinated?

I used to teach home schoolers art. For two years, I taught ages 7-17 all together for 3 hours once per week. And I have honestly never met a more mature, socialized group of kids. Not only did most of these kids know how to socialize with their own age group, but they knew how to socialize with adults and other kids that were older and younger than them. I think that home schooling can be AMAZING for kids when the parents are doing it for the right reasons. For instance, parents who want to home school to protect their children and keep them from everything that is bad are not doing it for the right reasons. I had a family of boys in my class that were like that....and since their parents kept them away from many social situations, they were a bit unsocialized and didn't know how to fit in. But if a parent is home schooling to better their child's education and make sure that they put them into a few group classes like art, swimming, music, rec ed and so forth, then I think that the children are actually BETTER socialized than kids that are in school. And I now work at a school, so I have seen both sides to this issue. The neat thing about home schooling is that any life experience can become a classroom situation....like going to see a play, going on a camping trip, going to the grocery store, going to the museum and going on a family vacation. To a home schooler, the classroom is everywhere.

Are you trying to suggest that public school are attempting to turn our communists and that only home schooled students are not being indoctrinated?

First of all, anyone can be indoctrinated whether or not they go to a public school or not.

That aside, if you add that to two other points of his, the establishment of a heavyprogressive or graduated income tax (our current tax system) and the abolishment of all rights of ineritance (the death tax could be see as in interim(sp?) step and there are groups out there lobbying to no longer allow inheritance, especially for "the rich"), then yes you could say that various forces within our country have been slowly trying to shift us towards communisim. Our public schools (as a whole, some areas more than others) have surey been placing more focus on issues such as shared resources (school supplies are collected by the teacher and distrubited as needed to all students and not just those that brought them) and other views that could be launched points to more communist views, as well as lees focus on actual education.

Again I don't say all public schools are like this and there are a good many teachers out there that aren't moving this way. But when the schools force them to teach in certain way s and only certain materials (oh heaven forbid if the material isnt politically correct even if it is talking about an era where such a term was never conceived) there is only so much they can do.

No I don't think the public schools were created solely for this nefarious purpose. But it wouldn't surprise me if the idea for such an institution were planted long ago and I am certain that there are those in power who would subility manipulate the public school to bring them more in line with Marx's ideas on how such an institution should run.

I myself am homeschooled. Most homeschoolers are every bit as socialized as kids who go to public schools. I attend debate classes, church, and a homeschool co-op. There are many kids in public schools that have 1 or 2 friends and are completely ignored by the rest of the student body.

Now for the "parent not qualified issue". This is a valid issue for some forms of homeschooling. I don't think many of the people debating this are knowledgeable about homeschooling. A parent isn't always the teacher. There is video schooling. The student watches a video that has a qualified teacher and usually a whole class of students on it. There are many private schools around the country that tape classes and send the tapes and schoolbooks along with grading books to homeschooling parents. All the parents have to do is grade the work and make sure the kids are doing what they are supposed to.

Homeschooled kids, like public schooled kids, aren't unsocialized so long as the parents are fulfilling their parental responsibilities.

You can't really claim that being in a public school properly socializes you because I know (heck, we all know) kids from the public school system who are completely socially dysfunctional. Their social dysfunctions manifest themselves in various ways--from being brute neanderthal bullies to being akward, studdering pencil neck nerds. There are plenty of others--goths, or gangsters, or whatever. They're in public school, so what happened to them? I thought that a main thrust of public schooling was to make sure kids are socialized? Is this your idea of properly socialized people?

I don't know about your experiences, but for plenty of folks, their public school days were borderline traumatic because they were everyday throw in the cages with these weirdos and animals. This isn't part of a healthy developmental or educational environment; kids aren't able to deal with this barrage of misfits and anti-social behavior as effectively as when they're mature adults.

What it ultimately comes down to is that it is the parent's responsibility to properly socialize their kids, not the school's. If the parent fails to do their part, the kid will be socially dysfunctional regardless of whether they are homeschooled, public schooled, private schooled, or living in a cave.

I've known plenty of people who were public schooled who went on to lead unproductive, embittered, isolationist lives. I've known plenty of homeschooled people who went on to be wealthy, honest, social leaders. There's no correlation.

Don't get me wrong, a few homeschool parents homeschool their kids so they can isolate them from the world--those kids are going to have trouble. But that again goes back to the real problem of parents not fulfilling their responsibility to properly socialize their kids.








And don't forget that homeschooled kids, on average, score at the 89th percentile on state-sponsored standardized tests. www.hslda.org


I was a public schooled kid. I scored in the 99th percentile on standardized test, enjoy a lovely social life, have plenty of friends of varying economic, social, political, and religious backgrounds.

How am I socially dysfunctional? I have taught classes, worked with children, been in a couple mildly successful bands. People tend to like me immediately. I think socially, I do pretty well.

Here's what I've seen (especially on High School and College Campuses) of the social interaction of home schooled children. The are clique-ish, elitist, under socialized kids, often paused socially to whatever period it was that their parents pulled them from school. On the college level over 50% of home schooled kids drop out in their first year, being unable to balance the workload and the social pressures of college.

Public and private schools provide education in a social atmosphere. Regardless of how a parent that home schools tries to defend it, home schooling causes a phenomenon that sociologists call "Social Retardation".

How is that better for a child?

Oh and one major point to the proponents of government run public schools.

In Karl Marx's The Communist Manifesto, He had 10 points for bringing about a true communist society. Number 10 was free public education controlled by the government.

Think on that.

The Constitution of the United States also states that every child has the basic right to an education.

The Constitution of the United States also states that every child has the basic right to an education.
uh.. where is that?

uh.. where is that?

It's in Washington.

I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, the one-size-fits-all approach of public education is a colossal failure and there needs to be more choices in education. On the other hand, home schooling can be a colossal failure as well: It all depends on the parents. I've seen home schooled kids who were way ahead of the curve compared to public school kids. They had no problems with socialization becuase their parents found places outside of school for them to intereact. However, I had a fifteen-year-old home-schooled kid in 8th grade who could barely read or calculate. He was in public school because his mother set fire to a trailer containing her ex-husbands new wife and children. When she went to jail, he was dumped in public school. When a district doesn't have the resouces to fix a leaky roof, how can it help a kid like that?

It's in Washington.
okay duh.. one of my big pet peeves is people claiming that they have a constitutional right to something when the constitution doesn't mention anything at all about it. Similar to my pet peeve about people who claim the Bible says things that it doesn't with the defense that "oh well that is what they told me"
So I am wondering where in the constitution you found something to make you believe that basic education is a constitutional right. huh? huh? where?

okay duh.. one of my big pet peeves is people claiming that they have a constitutional right to something when the constitution doesn't mention anything at all about it. Similar to my pet peeve about people who claim the Bible says things that it doesn't with the defense that "oh well that is what they told me"
So I am wondering where in the constitution you found something to make you believe that basic education is a constitutional right. huh? huh? where?

Sorry...I was just having a little fun there...

And I made a mistake...the right to a basic education provided by the state is part of the New York State Constitution. The ideal was handed down as part of the states' responsibilities in the Constitution. States can mandate public education or not. But I believe all 50 states do provide a public education.

I apologize for the joke...but you did leave yourself wide open for that one.

I was a public schooled kid. I scored in the 99th percentile on standardized test, enjoy a lovely social life, have plenty of friends of varying economic, social, political, and religious backgrounds.

How am I socially dysfunctional?

I'm sure you're not, but that doesn't change the fact that public schools are fraught with mutants. You actually seem like you read the post to which you responded, which is why I'm a little surprised that you seem to have missed my point which was that if being a public school setting socializes a kid, why are so many public school kids maladjusted? My premise is that parents are ultimately responsible for the social development of their kids, regardless of where they go to school.


I have taught classes, worked with children, been in a couple mildly successful bands. People tend to like me immediately. I think socially, I do pretty well.

Ok.

Here's what I've seen (especially on High School and College Campuses) of the social interaction of home schooled children.

Ok.

The are clique-ish, elitist,

This attitude seems to kind of rub against your previous assertion that you have friends in all these various economic, political, religious and social backgrounds. But then again, you never claimed to be tolerant, so...

under socialized kids, often paused socially to whatever period it was that their parents pulled them from school.

So basically, social development freezes as soon as they're taken out of public school... riiiiiight....

The United States didn't even have compulsory education ANYWHERE until 1852, and even that only put kids in school for three months a year from ages 8 through 14 (six years total). Compound this by the fact that our economy was still largely agricultural, that there weren't any modes of motorized transportation, and you realize how isolated everyone was compared to now. Yet all of the best evidence suggests that most everyone could read (see second link, below)-- I suppose you would maintain that of the tens of millions of Americans in the country at the time, except for the most elite of the elite they were all "socially retarded" and functionally illiterate? Your anecdotes, if you could call them that, are baseless. Sorry, my friend.

http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/www7/compulso.html

http://www.ncsall.net/?id=576



On the college level over 50% of home schooled kids drop out in their first year, being unable to balance the workload and the social pressures of college.

Now you're just making stuff up :) Back this up. Someone previously in this forum couldn't back that claim up either. What? You can't? Hmmm....

Public and private schools provide education in a social atmosphere. Regardless of how a parent that home schools tries to defend it, home schooling causes a phenomenon that sociologists call "Social Retardation".

You're still making stuff up. Show us something. Back up your statement. Show us the published article by a sociologist who demonstrates that homeschooled kids experience "social retardation". Or can't you? :) No?


These questions aren't rhetorical. The proper thing to do would either be to now back up your claims, or to admit that your biases are unfounded.

How is that better for a child?

If what you had asserted was true, it wouldn't be. But what you're asserting isn't true.

The Constitution of the United States also states that every child has the basic right to an education.

NO IT DOESN'T. lol :D :D :D That is hilarious :)


I will give $1000 to the first person who shows where in the Constitution a child's right to an education is mandated.

okay duh.. one of my big pet peeves is people claiming that they have a constitutional right to something when the constitution doesn't mention anything at all about it. Similar to my pet peeve about people who claim the Bible says things that it doesn't with the defense that "oh well that is what they told me"
So I am wondering where in the constitution you found something to make you believe that basic education is a constitutional right. huh? huh? where?

Agreed. I'm starting to see that this guy just makes things up. Actually, I'm starting to see that all of the passionately anti-homeschool people just make up the reasons for their opposition. This tells me that people who are fundamentally opposed to homeschooling are just really ignorant about it.

Agreed. I'm starting to see that this guy just makes things up. Actually, I'm starting to see that all of the passionately anti-homeschool people just make up the reasons for their opposition. This tells me that people who are fundamentally opposed to homeschooling are just really ignorant about it.

Actually not the case. I have read extensive studies both for and against home schooling. I see few redeeming benefots of home schooling, perhaps because I live in an area of higher education standards than most of the US.

I do not make things up. I admitted to my error (as well as the fact that I was making a joke). Read all posts before flaming please.

And here's a statistic for you...more than 50% of home schooled children are taught by a mother associated with Fundamentalist religion.

That for me is huge argument against, since more of these "Home Schooling Social Networks" involve fundamentalist beliefs.

The only time I'd consider home schooling is if my state passed legislation allowing ID to be taught. That's when it is time to bring a child out of the public school.

I'm sure you're not, but that doesn't change the fact that public schools are fraught with mutants. You actually seem like you read the post to which you responded, which is why I'm a little surprised that you seem to have missed my point which was that if being a public school setting socializes a kid, why are so many public school kids maladjusted?

Mutants? Are you calling me or my children mutants? I think I got your point quite clearly, you arrogant, uneducated, conceited, neophyte.

Your stats are based on information provided by a Home Schooling Network, not a scientific sociological review by a board of peers. Of course Home School Networks will praise their virtues. So did Merck when it was selling Vioxx.

Further more, don't EVER assume you know me and that you are sure I am or I am not anything. Apparently, your mother never home schooled you in manners and the proper form of debate.

My premise is that parents are ultimately responsible for the social development of their kids, regardless of where they go to school.


While this is true, why restrict the community with which your child can interact? Parents are ultimately responsible for everything. Take a look at the story from a teacher above that discusses a 15 year old that couldn't compete after being home schooled by a psycho mom who torched her ex's trailer. If those are the types of parents that home school I'll take my mutants to the public school and get involved so I can assure they need not be maladjusted in the school system. Like over 50% of the home schooled college freshmen that suffer panic attacks and drop out.

Mutants? Are you calling me or my children mutants? I think I got your point quite clearly, you arrogant, uneducated, conceited, neophyte.

Your stats are based on information provided by a Home Schooling Network, not a scientific sociological review by a board of peers. Of course Home School Networks will praise their virtues. So did Merck when it was selling Vioxx.

Further more, don't EVER assume you know me and that you are sure I am or I am not anything. Apparently, your mother never home schooled you in manners and the proper form of debate.



While this is true, why restrict the community with which your child can interact? Parents are ultimately responsible for everything. Take a look at the story from a teacher above that discusses a 15 year old that couldn't compete after being home schooled by a psycho mom who torched her ex's trailer. If those are the types of parents that home school I'll take my mutants to the public school and get involved so I can assure they need not be maladjusted in the school system. Like over 50% of the home schooled college freshmen that suffer panic attacks and drop out.

Nice flame.

So let me summarize your points:

1. I'm a big doo-doo head.
2. There's no data to back up your claims.
3. The fact that there's no data to back up your claims, such as the college dropout rate of homeschooled students mentioned above, won't deter you from continuing to make them.

Does that sound about right?

Also, I would like point out the irony of these statements:


I think I got your point quite clearly, you arrogant, uneducated, conceited, neophyte.

Then,

Further more, don't EVER assume you know me and that you are sure I am or I am not anything. Apparently, your mother never home schooled you in manners and the proper form of debate.


Or don't you see it? The triple irony of your second statement is that (1) you apparently seem to presume to know quite well all about who I am, (2) I was never homeschooled, but you presume that I was, and (3) you're lecturing me on manners and decorum, but you're the one who is making ad hominem attacks and can't back up his assertions.

Ironic yes? Or do dispute this?

While public schools are taking a lot of heat these days and charter schools are less than perfect, I was wondering what people thought of home schooling?

I enjoyed it. I was homeschooled and I got a better education than those that attended the public schools around here.

I am personally against it as socialization is part of the learning process and statistically Home schooled kids are more likely to fail-out or drop in college. What are your thoughts?

Are more likely to drop out? BULLCRAP!!! As a homeschooler, I attended 2 non-core classes at the local highschool (accounting and chorus), ran track and cross country (2 varsity letters in track and 1 in cross country), karate, and even participated in a couple of homeschool science fairs (morse code and volcanoes). The myth that homeschoolers don't have socializing opportunities is 100% false and I'm getting sick and tired of having to dispell that myth. Also, we are more likely to SUCCEED in college as we are taught what we need to know. I learned far more at home than I did in school. I'm also in College and I am doing quite well there too. We are more likely to pass and succeed in college than those that actually attended public education who are more likely to drop out and/or fail.

I think the major issue I have with it is, who evaluates the parent as a teacher? I suppose if Grandma is a retired teacher or something...but what about standards and testing?

In PA, you have to go to a certified evaluator. I never had a problem because my mom documented every single solitary thing I did from all of my homework through sports. Standards and tests are set by the state. Even homeschoolers have to have standards (and we had plenty of them) as well as those damned SATs. I was also forced to take the state assessment test. I was at a higher level than most of the highschoolers in my grade was. I was at the high end in most every category except Math. I was never really good at math anyway.

A Lot of Smart people are Homeschooled Like for instance Edison Was a Homeschool Student

Einstein too!

In PA, you have to go to a certified evaluator. I never had a problem because my mom documented every single solitary thing I did from all of my homework through sports. Standards and tests are set by the state. Even homeschoolers have to have standards (and we had plenty of them) as well as those damned SATs. I was also forced to take the state assessment test. I was at a higher level than most of the highschoolers in my grade was. I was at the high end in most every category except Math. I was never really good at math anyway.

But what you fail to see is that somebody, somewhere who homeschooled screwed up. And that means that homeschooling is bad. Nevermind that the parents probably would have screwed up their kid just as bad if they had placed him or her in public school...

As a homeschooled kid myself, I think I have at least a fairly good concept of how homeschooling affects kids and whether it's a good or bad decision. I'm a grad student at a fairly large university now and I personally think being homeschooled was a great thing for me. Yeah, there were some things I missed out on by not ever going to school and sometimes I wish things were different. But who doesnt? There's other things I got to do that most kids never get to experience and that's pretty cool. Socialization is not nearly as big an issue as some people make it out to be. I mean, I know some homeschool kids that really don't quite fit into society and I think it would've been good for them to get out in the real world some. But most of us are perfectly "normal". If kids are involved in other activities outside of home, they generally turn out ok. If anybody I or any of my homeschool friends have ever met anybody that didn't already know we were homeschooled, most of them have no idea and can't ever tell anybody difference between us and public or private school kids. The ones that can tell a difference in us usually find us to be more responsible, independent, and sometimes better able to relate well to all ages of people. It's really not about where you go to school. It's how your parents raise you and the opportunities you have and the people you know. In most states, there are rules and standards and such that you have to meet and follow. Both my parents are teachers so they had a better grasp than some parents on how and what to teach us. I agree that it's not good for kids to stay at home just because parents have a problem with the school system or want to completely control what their kids are exposed to, especially when the parents aren't really qualified to teach or don't really care what their kids are learning. My parents were a little more overprotective than most and I came to college fairly naive, although not too much so because I had friends my whole life that went to school, but I've never felt like being homeschooled has held me back in any way. Homeschooling doesn't work for everyone and I know plenty of people who would hate it, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Do a little research and you'll find more and more instances of homeschool kids coming out better in many different areas than kids that went to school. So my advice is, don't knock it until you try it or make sure to learn enough about it to have an informed opinion. I think it's a great system if the kids can deal with it and the parents care enough to do it right and if rules and standards are followed so there's some accountability involved.

Ok so I know this is probably a little long...sorry about that...it's an issue I care about and feel at least as well qualified as anyone else to offer a genuinely informed opinion.

Well said Giant Kitty! Well said indeed.

Einstein too!

Pretty much everyone was homeschooled right up until the last century, except for the elite who sent their kids to boarding schools. The Wright Brothers didn't have a formal education.

Balipo bailed out of the discussion. Pity. I was hoping he would respond.

while theres nothing inherently wrong with homeschooling Id be against nazi educations

I would like to be homeschooled because of all the crap at public school, but people who are homeschooled will probably be more stupid.

Then why do they do better in competitions than those that went to public school?

Most parents are probably not the best teachers, seeing as they are very unlikely to be so well educated in so many areas of knowledge that they can successfully teach their children enough to go to college or get a high paying job.

My mother taught me just fine and I got higher test scores than most of the people at the public highschool

Also, the kids are probably going to care less because they are at home.

Wanna bet on that?

:mp5: :sniper: :mp5:
The Armed Republic Of Cruel Tyrany

Very immature of you. Now I know I was better off homeschooled.

NO. This is coming from somebody who's been in home school since 1997...

It totally destroys any social life you may have had. No, no, no, no, NO. No home school. Ugh.

Lady, I was homeschooled from 1995-2001 (roughly)! How did it destroy your social life? I had a heck of a social life and I had a nice network of friends regardless of me being a homeschooler. So how did it destroy your social life? DIdn't your parents let you out to play once in awhile?

The Constitution of the United States also states that every child has the basic right to an education.

Where in the Constitution is that at?

But what you fail to see is that somebody, somewhere who homeschooled screwed up. And that means that homeschooling is bad. Nevermind that the parents probably would have screwed up their kid just as bad if they had placed him or her in public school...

Yea I know. It only takes one to give everyone a bad rep. I rather enjoyed it.

The school district bend over backwards for us. When my mother had cancer, the district let me ride the bus from school to home because my father was always gone. My senior year, I was able to take the bus to school even though I was there for first and second period. Hell, it was because of my 1st and 2nd period classes that i had a homeroom and got elected to the school student council. No socializing my aunt Karen.

while theres nothing inherently wrong with homeschooling Id be against nazi educations

Nazi Education? I didn't receive Nazi education.

some do.

some do.

Care to prove it?

Care to prove it?

care to disprove it?

care to disprove it?

Funny :)

But in fairness, the burden of proof falls on the person making the assertion.

care to disprove it?

The burden of proof is on him and not on me! Sorry.

The burden of proof is on him and not on me! Sorry.

are yes but you want proof

Very immature of you. Now I know I was better off homeschooled.That's actually his "signature". I'm gonna ask the mods if they can tell him to put it where it belongs.

Homeschooling is a perfect solution for many people.

Lady, I was homeschooled from 1995-2001 (roughly)! How did it destroy your social life? I had a heck of a social life and I had a nice network of friends regardless of me being a homeschooler. So how did it destroy your social life? DIdn't your parents let you out to play once in awhile?

precisely. i homeschooled throughout most of high school, as my parents wouldn't send me to public schools (i'm quite thankful of that) and the local private alternatives weren't what we were looking for and boarding school was too costly. it certainly didn't destroy my social life. i had a job, took extracirricular classes like crazy and volunteered in places i wanted to be and made my friends that way. i did everything a regular high schooler does with their friends, excepting proms and things of that nature that i'd have no interest in doing anyway. i took trips, had parties, experimented with drugs-hell, i even got laid :eek:
as far as i can tell, at least when homeschooling at older ages, it's all in what you decide to make of it. unless you have crazy parents who won't let you leave the house, i suppose. i can see how at younger ages it might inhibit the regular progression of social maturity. but even in conventional school, my social life existed predominantly outside of the classroom. school's top priority is educating, not socializing.

The burden of proof is on him and not on me! Sorry.


Well, not really.

It doesn't make sense that you would just be able to say anything ("the moon is made out of cheese") and when someone says "prove it", you can just say "prove otherwise." Things don't work like that; you really need to back yourself up.

Well, not really.

It doesn't make sense that you would just be able to say anything ("the moon is made out of cheese") and when someone says "prove it", you can just say "prove otherwise." Things don't work like that; you really need to back yourself up.


it's good to see that home school education you boast about :rolleyes:

(he didn’t post the statement!)

it's good to see that home school education you boast about :rolleyes:

(he didn’t post the statement!)


What the heck are you talking about?

Home schooling in my opinion is a grate way to get an education, but in order to prepare yourself for the real world you have to learn to deal with the problems that you will face this is where public school excells and if you want to realy prepare your kids send them to a privet school the best of both worlds. there are some messed up kids at private school your kids will see all sorts of problems and learn to deal with them and they'll get one on one education like at home school.

Bovineopoless']Home schooling in my opinion is a grate way to get an education, but in order to prepare yourself for the real world you have to learn to deal with the problems that you will face this is where public school excells and if you want to realy prepare your kids send them to a privet school the best of both worlds. there are some messed up kids at private school your kids will see all sorts of problems and learn to deal with them and they'll get one on one education like at home school.

I see grammatical errors and puncuation mistakes in this sentence. And for your information, public schools is not a good way to deal with real world problems. The schools don't curtail violance at all. I learned far more about the real world by being homeschooled than I ever did in public school.

Nice flame.

So let me summarize your points:

1. I'm a big doo-doo head.
2. There's no data to back up your claims.
3. The fact that there's no data to back up your claims, such as the college dropout rate of homeschooled students mentioned above, won't deter you from continuing to make them.

Does that sound about right?

Also, I would like point out the irony of these statements:




Then,




Or don't you see it? The triple irony of your second statement is that (1) you apparently seem to presume to know quite well all about who I am, (2) I was never homeschooled, but you presume that I was, and (3) you're lecturing me on manners and decorum, but you're the one who is making ad hominem attacks and can't back up his assertions.

Ironic yes? Or do dispute this?


Here 's the irony. I respond only based on the arrogant and elitist manner of your post. I never stated that you were home schooled, or that I knew one way or the other, that was pointed irony for a purpose. A jab if you will. I am lecturing on manners and decorum in response to a direct attack, hence the gloves are off.

My facts are backed in various reponses to posts, I will not continually re-post for your lacadaisical enjoyment. My assertions, specifically, in regard to drop-out rates are backed I assure you. I am assisting in the large scale web-publishing of results on a study of home schooled children who buckle under the pressure of university life. It is a two-fold study being completed by U of C Berkeley currently under the last stages of peer review.

There is my evidence, it will be available online in approximately 6 months barring any publishing issues.

Now ...show me these mutants, so called...

Balipo bailed out of the discussion. Pity. I was hoping he would respond.

Sorry...I got busy...work to do...

The Constitution of the United States also states that every child has the basic right to an education.

Oh I am SOOOO glad you used the "R" word.

Do you understand that having a right to something ONLY means that the Government cannot make any laws restricting you from it? Having a right to something does not require anyone to give it to you. If you believe that then you believe that someone must be forced to give it to you at their expense, either of time or resources (monitary or material).

Also please cite for me exactly where in the Constitution (Article and Section, or Amendment) that you Have a right to an education. There is only a law that requires all children to be educated. Nothing in the Constitution.

Urgh imagine being stuck with a parent for the whole school day.

I'm sure you're not, but that doesn't change the fact that public schools are fraught with mutants. You actually seem like you read the post to which you responded, which is why I'm a little surprised that you seem to have missed my point which was that if being a public school setting socializes a kid, why are so many public school kids maladjusted?


Mutants? Are you calling me or my children mutants? I think I got your point quite clearly, you arrogant, uneducated, conceited, neophyte.

Further more, don't EVER assume you know me and that you are sure I am or I am not anything. Apparently, your mother never home schooled you in manners and the proper form of debate.


Ok here again a person is taking a generalized statement( "fraught with mutants" ) and making the assumption that it means everyone in that situation. Sounds like poor debate form right there. In fact at no point does BT state "all" or even specifically isolate you out, Balipo. While his wording may be ill chosen he holds a valid point. There are as many children in school who do nothing but cause trouble and are extremely anti-social, not just withdrawn (as might typify a "nerd" or "wall-flower" type) as there are supremely well behaved children. Also note that the anti-social children are not necessarily the "punks" and "goths" and not well to do. I have certainly had my share of anti-social behaivor from the popular jocks who think that just because they play sports they don't have to make good grades or obey rules. In fairness I have also known "jocks" who were intelligent, earned good grades and were kind to me.

While this is true, why restrict the community with which your child can interact? Parents are ultimately responsible for everything.

Exactly which is why they get to choose which communities their children can interact with. By your statement, (altough I doubt that it was your intent) you are advocating no restrictions on the communities a child interacts with. Which means don't restrict them from interacting with the druggies, the gangs, etc. Again I really doubt that you want your children interacting with such people, but you did imply that, however unintentionaly.


Take a look at the story from a teacher above that discusses a 15 year old that couldn't compete after being home schooled by a psycho mom who torched her ex's trailer. If those are the types of parents that home school I'll take my mutants to the public school and get involved so I can assure they need not be maladjusted in the school system.

The fact that the child was homeschooled by such a parent is irrelevant. Some public schooled children have parents like this as well. One could say that it occured to the child because the mom was divorced or that the father had a new girlfriend (which was probably the reason for the divorce, although I don't know). It's just as baseless.

Like over 50% of the home schooled college freshmen that suffer panic attacks and drop out.
First off I have yet to see a quotable source for this statistic, yet alone a potentially non-biased one. (BTW the only real referances I've seen so far 2 of the 3 were defantly pro home schooled. The third, a government source is less likely to bias. I argue that people within the gov't might be manipulating towards more communist goals not that the government itself is working towards that) In addition, One could say that 50% of Homeschool children complete College or at least their freshman year. You would also need to compare how many public schooled children drop out of their freshman year, or don't even go to college altogether. If (supposing) more then 60% of public school children drop out during their freshman year of college then the 50% Homeschooling drop out rate looks good. So for your statistic to hold any real weight you must show the comparative numbers. (US and USSR hold a race. The US wins. The USSR papers write "USSR comes in second, US next to last")

And here's a statistic for you...more than 50% of home schooled children are taught by a mother associated with Fundamentalist religion.

That for me is huge argument against, since more of these "Home Schooling Social Networks" involve fundamentalist beliefs.

The only time I'd consider home schooling is if my state passed legislation allowing ID to be taught. That's when it is time to bring a child out of the public school.
I personally find it un-american to decide that homeschooling is bad because some of us do it for religious reasons. We live in a free country, why shouldn't I be able to educate my children the way I want to? btw one of the reasons my girls are not in public school is because they are so secular to the point that they actually put down Christainity. The other reason is because the schools around here are in my opinion substandard.

Here 's the irony. I respond only based on the arrogant and elitist manner of your post. I never stated that you were home schooled, or that I knew one way or the other, that was pointed irony for a purpose. A jab if you will. I am lecturing on manners and decorum in response to a direct attack, hence the gloves are off.

My facts are backed in various reponses to posts, I will not continually re-post for your lacadaisical enjoyment. My assertions, specifically, in regard to drop-out rates are backed I assure you. I am assisting in the large scale web-publishing of results on a study of home schooled children who buckle under the pressure of university life. It is a two-fold study being completed by U of C Berkeley currently under the last stages of peer review.

There is my evidence, it will be available online in approximately 6 months barring any publishing issues.

Now ...show me these mutants, so called...

So to summarize:

1. You still can't back up your claims
2. It doesn't matter that you still can't back up your claims because you just know it's true, darn it
3. U.C. Berkeley's research is conducted by people who make claims they can't back up
4. U.C. Berekely has a campus in upstate New York


Oh, if and when you get your paper at reviewed, I'm sure you'll make sure to mention at the onset that you knew what the results were going to be before it was published.

So to summarize:

1. You still can't back up your claims
2. It doesn't matter that you still can't back up your claims because you just know it's true, darn it
3. U.C. Berkeley's research is conducted by people who make claims they can't back up
4. U.C. Berekely has a campus in upstate New York


Oh, if and when you get your paper at reviewed, I'm sure you'll make sure to mention at the onset that you knew what the results were going to be before it was published.

Not to mention, he hasn't said anything to me about what I went through and posted. He really doesn't have a clue as to what he is talking about. It is quite obvious.

Oh I am SOOOO glad you used the "R" word.

Do you understand that having a right to something ONLY means that the Government cannot make any laws restricting you from it? Having a right to something does not require anyone to give it to you. If you believe that then you believe that someone must be forced to give it to you at their expense, either of time or resources (monitary or material).

This is a great point that I almost completely overlooked. You're right in that rights are not created by a government. Our government is a body of enumerated powers; that is, the presumption is that the government does not have a power to give or take away unless that power is specifically articulated.

Just as good a point is that if you believe someone has the right to get a public education, someone else has the mandate to give an education. As I pointed out in an earlier post, the first compulsory eduation law in the States didn't come about until 1852, and even that was for only 12 weeks a year for six years. The 12 weeks didn't even have to be consecutive. It wasn't until 1918 that all states had compulsory education. If people needed schools to be socially functional, then pretty much every person in the country (or the world, for that matter) was socially dysfunctional until the last century--at which point we all became magically "socialized", whatever that's suppose to mean.

The schools don't curtail violance at all. I learned far more about the real world by being homeschooled than I ever did in public school.
EXCUSE ME? We don't curtail violence? Please back that statement up. I got enough training before I left the States (and had to curtail a few times when in praticum), and have done so here in Japan. I've had more than enough of the hints and outright attacks that teachers all sit on their asses and watch fights from the staff room with doing nothing.

I also take exception to the oft stated opinion here that teachers fail to do their jobs, that public schools are nothing but hell holes, and the indication that home schooling is the best system.

For some children it is, for many it is not. I would also like to remind you that millions pass through public school and seem to be doing pretty well.

And no, home schooled children are NOT more likely to suceed at college. The few studies conducted (and there are just a few) show no significant difference between home schooled student and public schooled students in terms of sucess in college.

*gets off soapbox*

Public schools and manditory education were enacted due to massive changes within America. Before hand, while manditory education did not exist, many students did go to a form of school, usually grammar school, but not further.

America of the 1600s or even the 1850s is not America of today and its schools have served the country well. Not perfectly, no, there is still room for improvement, but they have never done a disservice to their country either.

EXCUSE ME? We don't curtail violence? Please back that statement up. I got enough training before I left the States (and had to curtail a few times when in praticum), and have done so here in Japan. I've had more than enough of the hints and outright attacks that teachers all sit on their asses and watch fights from the staff room with doing nothing.

I also take exception to the oft stated opinion here that teachers fail to do their jobs, that public schools are nothing but hell holes, and the indication that home schooling is the best system.

I call'em like I see'em.

For some children it is, for many it is not. I would also like to remind you that millions pass through public school and seem to be doing pretty well.

I do not dispute this.

And no, home schooled children are NOT more likely to suceed at college. The few studies conducted (and there are just a few) show no significant difference between home schooled student and public schooled students in terms of sucess in college.

SHOW ME THE STUDY :) Surely, if these studies exist, they're available online, right? They're not? Why not?

*gets off soapbox*

I dispute that you have done this as well :)

Public schools and manditory education were enacted due to massive changes within America.

Correct.

Before hand, while manditory education did not exist, many students did go to a form of school, usually grammar school, but not further.

Incorrect.

America of the 1600s or even the 1850s is not America of today and its schools have served the country well.

In some ways, yes; in other ways, no.

Not perfectly, no, there is still room for improvement, but they have never done a disservice to their country either.

Well, I would argue that public schools in some ways haven't been good for society, but I wouldn't think to argue that they're always bad or bad for every individual. But I am arguing that the institution of homeschooling is generally superior.

EXCUSE ME? We don't curtail violence? Please back that statement up. I got enough training before I left the States (and had to curtail a few times when in praticum), and have done so here in Japan.

I was told that I had to toughen up when I told a teacher everything that was going on in regards to violence, including me getting shoved into a locker not once but twice. Even the guidence councilor didn't do anything. The only time someone did something was when a sub in a chorus class sent a classmate to the v.p. office after tossing me out of a room designed to practice our music. So no, schools don't do anything about violence at all.

I've had more than enough of the hints and outright attacks that teachers all sit on their asses and watch fights from the staff room with doing nothing.

Most don't. Some do but most don't.

I also take exception to the oft stated opinion here that teachers fail to do their jobs, that public schools are nothing but hell holes, and the indication that home schooling is the best system.

Not good for everyone but it certainly was the best for me.

For some children it is, for many it is not. I would also like to remind you that millions pass through public school and seem to be doing pretty well.

Until they get into College then most of those that seem to do well, drop out.

And no, home schooled children are NOT more likely to suceed at college. The few studies conducted (and there are just a few) show no significant difference between home schooled student and public schooled students in terms of sucess in college.

Can we see such studies please? So far, no one has been able to prove it.

*gets off soapbox*

I'm so glad! LOL :D

Public schools and manditory education were enacted due to massive changes within America. Before hand, while manditory education did not exist, many students did go to a form of school, usually grammar school, but not further.

Already been established.

I call'em like I see'em.
And you yelled that you have to have studies and how them off to make assumptions and yet YOU can call them like you see them? I don't think so. Back up your assumption that schools fail to stop violence or that they are failing.

SHOW ME THE STUDY :) Surely, if these studies exist, they're available online, right? They're not? Why not?
Who says they don't? You DO have access to scholarly databases right?
Then you might want to start off with this one:
Jones, Paul and Gene Gloeckner. First year college peformance: a study of home school graduates and traditional school graduates, The Journal of College Admission. Spring 2004, PP 17-20.

And then work your way through the bibliography like I did. Since most folks don't have access to said databases, that's why I didn't post them.

Incorrect.
Look up the large amount of grammar schools from American colonial times forward. Many students went to these schools. Or, if not, show me where you say most or all students were home schooled in America until manditory education laws. Those laws just said you HAD to go to school, not that there were not public schools at the time.

Well, I would argue that public schools in some ways haven't been good for society, but I wouldn't think to argue that they're always bad or bad for every individual. But I am arguing that the institution of homeschooling is generally superior.
Show me.

I was told that I had to toughen up when I told a teacher everything that was going on in regards to violence, including me getting shoved into a locker not once but twice. Even the guidence councilor didn't do anything. The only time someone did something was when a sub in a chorus class sent a classmate to the v.p. office after tossing me out of a room designed to practice our music. So no, schools don't do anything about violence at all.
So from your own experiance you generalize to all schools and teachers? Come on, Corneliu, you can do better than THAT!

If that is the case, then I can state that as a teacher, I have stopped many acts of violence.

Most don't. Some do but most don't.
We must have had different teachers because I remember them all running to a fight when it started to break them up. Considering my high school had a yearly riot, this happened quite often. Most do something about it. But again, many times students seem to think that teachers know everything that happenes and don't actually report what is going on.

And then blaim teachers for not doing anything.

Not good for everyone but it certainly was the best for me.
Good for you then. And public school was the best for me. I don't deny that home school works well or wonders for some students, I just say that home school is not a better system than public schools.

I also don't say that public is better, but it really depends upon the individual student and that student's situation.

Until they get into College then most of those that seem to do well, drop out.
This is news to me, graduation rates in the US (for BA/BS) is 69% according to US News and World Report's yearly rating of colleges and universities. You're not suggesting that most of that 69% is home schooled are you?

Can we see such studies please? So far, no one has been able to prove it.
See above. If you're really that interested in education journals, I'll be glad to gather a bib sheet when I have a few moments for you and Brians Test.

So from your own experiance you generalize to all schools and teachers? Come on, Corneliu, you can do better than THAT!

That was just at the highschool. In Elementary school, I had to learn to defend myself since the teachers did absolutely not a damn thing regarding school bullys. Apparently bullies are smiled upon while those that take down bullies aren't. Tell me why a kid has to defend himself from a bully?

If that is the case, then I can state that as a teacher, I have stopped many acts of violence.

Your one of the few that do.

We must have had different teachers because I remember them all running to a fight when it started to break them up.

And how long ago was that?

Considering my high school had a yearly riot, this happened quite often. Most do something about it. But again, many times students seem to think that teachers know everything that happenes and don't actually report what is going on.

If they report it, nothing is ever done about it apparently.

And then blaim teachers for not doing anything.

Since the teachers are the ones that are more easily seen and not the administration personel, yes, they do get the blame.

Good for you then. And public school was the best for me. I don't deny that home school works well or wonders for some students, I just say that home school is not a better system than public schools.

Depends on who you ask. To me, it was a better system than Public Schools. To you it isn't. It all depends on who you ask and your own personal beliefs.

I also don't say that public is better, but it really depends upon the individual student and that student's situation.

Correct. I'll agree with you there :)

This is news to me, graduation rates in the US (for BA/BS) is 69% according to US News and World Report's yearly rating of colleges and universities. You're not suggesting that most of that 69% is home schooled are you?

Care to provide a link please?

See above. If you're really that interested in education journals, I'll be glad to gather a bib sheet when I have a few moments for you and Brians Test.

Do as you will, I don't care.

I have noticed that in this thread, most people who were homeschooled are strongly in favor of it, so let me put my two cents in as one of their group. Homeschooling can be a highly rewarding and beneficial experience, depending on the parents doing the educating. I, unfortunately, was homeschooled by a fundamentalist mother who believed school was evil and did not want me exposed to corruptive influences such as evolution, dinosaurs, non-christian fiction, etc.

As a result, my curriculum had many gaps, and I missed out on a lot of the activities and socializing that other children of my age got to do. Fortunately for me, I had a very inquiring mind, and at the age of 11 when I got my own library card, began to smuggle home a wide variety of books and fiction novels to supplement my education, ranging from sci-fi, biology books (I wanted to understand what this evil evolution thing was all about), shakespeare (I really have no idea why some Christians feel that he is a corruptive influence :rolleyes:), and so forth, till I was 15, and decided that I wanted to attend public school.

My mother was absolutely opposed to the idea, so I enrolled myself in high school on my own one day, and announced it to her later. Since I was 16 at the time, I wanted to be in the same grade as teens my age, so told the school counselor to place me in grade 11, even though the last grade in homeschooling I had completed was grade 8 a few years before. Apart from the sciences and maths, I did very well performance-wise, thanks to my own self-education (through the book smuggling). Adjusting to school life was much harder though, and took quite awhile. I wish I had gone to public school much earlier, as I am still deficient in maths and the sciences, and was unable to get caught up in time before I applied to university, so had to enroll in an arts faculty program.
I do know homeschoolers who have responsible and committed parents who did their best to educate their kids at home, and exposed them to a wide variety of activities and experiences which they would not have been able to get in the public school in their district, so essentially the success and responsibility lies with the parents.
Licensing would be an excellent idea, or at the very least, the children of homeschoolers should meet with a school counselor to discuss whether or not they are happy being homeschooled. As well, subjects that they test low in, or that parents are unqualified or unable to teach, such as sciences, should be taken in school instead of at home.
Another problem with homeschooling is that the parents have the opportunity to pretty much brainwash the children with their own brand of thinking, religious views, etc., and block out all dissent and differing opinions. I was fortunately never the sort to accept everything I was told, however my younger brother, who is also homeschooled, is, and apart from his education having serious gaps, is now highly intolerant of other views, and quite frankly if he was taught the earth was flat, he would believe it, no matter how much proof one produced to the contrary. I'm still hoping one day he will learn to think for himself and let me help him go to a secular college or university, but I don't hold out much hope.

School gives you the option to hear opinions and ideas contrary to what your parents' may be, not to mention it allows you to not have to be with them 24 hours a day. While certain parents may be well equipped to teach their children at home, and do it in order to encourage academic performance, not all are like that, and it is those who should not homeschool.

Another problem with homeschooling is that the parents have the opportunity to pretty much brainwash the children with their own brand of thinking, religious views, etc.
School gives you the option to hear opinions and ideas contrary to what your parents' may be, not to mention it allows you to not have to be with them 24 hours a day. While certain parents may be well equipped to teach their children at home, and do it in order to encourage academic performance, not all are like that, and it is those who should not homeschool.
Why do you say brainwashing?
Brainwashing: (a.k.a. thought control, mind control, coercive persuasion).
how would presenting my children with my beliefs "brainwash" them?

I do agree that there are some religious nutjobs and while I don't like having them around (because they make the rest of us look bad) we do live in a free country (or I do) I don't see where taking thier rights away just because you don't agree is any kind of freedom

Why do you say brainwashing?
Brainwashing: (a.k.a. thought control, mind control, coercive persuasion).
how would presenting my children with my beliefs "brainwash" them?


I use the term brainwashing, because in essence, if a child is cut off from the rest of the world and secluded at home by parents who attempt to fill his/her mind with rhetoric and beliefs, without allowing them the opportunities to think for themselves or be exposed to other ideas and beliefs, then that does qualify as brainwashing. I have no problem with a person presenting their beliefs to their children, as long as they do not try to force them to accept them, or try to push their way as being the only right way.

As for taking away the rights of certain parents to homeschool - we must think about the children, and their happiness, welfare, and well-being, and in certain cases, homeschooling is detrimental to all of the above. Parents have a responsibility to their children, and quite frankly, a child's rights should come before that of a parent.

I use the term brainwashing, because in essence, if a child is cut off from the rest of the world and seclulded at home by parents who attempt to fill his/her mind with rhetoric and beliefs, without allowing them the opportunities to think for themselves or be exposed to other ideas and beliefs, then than does qualify as brainwashing.

Well... I was homeschooled and I wasn't cut off from the outside world at all. I had full access as to what was going on in the real world. Being homeschooled allowed me to have my own thoughts without getting slammed by a teacher for having a different thought than everyone else.

I have no problems with a person presenting their beliefs to their children, as long as they do not try to force them to accept them, or try to push their way as being the only right way.

I agree 100%

Well... I was homeschooled and I wasn't cut off from the outside world at all. I had full access as to what was going on in the real world. Being homeschooled allowed me to have my own thoughts without getting slammed by a teacher for having a different thought than everyone else.

I've never seen a teacher do this.

I've never seen a teacher do this.

I got it most of the time with my reports I wrote. If it didn't conform to the teacher's opinion I got deducted for it. School did nothing when we complained.

As I said, some people have very positive experiences being homeschooled, I'm just speaking for those who unfortunately had the negative ones. There are two sides to every story, as I had extremely positive experiences with public school, while you seem to have not. C'est la vie...

Out of curiosity, for how long were you homeschooled, Corneliu, and for what grades?

As I said, some people have very positive experiences being homeschooled, I'm just speaking for those who unfortunately had the negative ones. There are two sides to every story, as I had extremely positive experiences with public school, while you seem to have not. C'est la vie...

Out of curiosity, for how long were you homeschooled, Corneliu, and for what grades?

Half of sixth grade through 8th grade and after 1 month at the Highschool from then on till I graduated High School.

Did you attend university/college after?

I use the term brainwashing, because in essence, if a child is cut off from the rest of the world and secluded at home by parents who attempt to fill his/her mind with rhetoric and beliefs, without allowing them the opportunities to think for themselves or be exposed to other ideas and beliefs, then that does qualify as brainwashing. It is illogical to believe that the all homeschooled kids are cut off from the rest of the world, to do that you would have to lock them in a room and never let them out, parents who would do that are abusive and do NOT deserve thier children.

I have no problem with a person presenting their beliefs to their children, as long as they do not try to force them to accept them, or try to push their way as being the only right way.and what if the one of the basics of my beliefs is that it is the only right way?

As for taking away the rights of certain parents to homeschool - we must think about the children, and their happiness, welfare, and well-being, and in certain cases, homeschooling is detrimental to all of the above. Parents have a responsibility to their children, and quite frankly, a child's rights should come before that of a parent.
Of course I would agree that children that are being abused must be removed from the situation. I do not think that religious beliefs that are shared with your loved ones counts as abuse.

Did you attend university/college after?

I'm heading back to the university on Saturday, moving in on Sunday, and beginning my senior year on Monday.

I got it most of the time with my reports I wrote. If it didn't conform to the teacher's opinion I got deducted for it. School did nothing when we complained.
Crappy school then. I made it a point to disagree with the teacher on everything and I still got one of the highest grades in that class :D (a study of international relations).

It is illogical to believe that the all homeschooled kids are cut off from the rest of the world, to do that you would have to lock them in a room and never let them out, parents who would do that are abusive and do NOT deserve thier children.

I never said it was all homeschooled kids, I said that there will be cases where some are cut off from the world - and yes, they can be kept quite cut
off without being locked up in a room.

and what if the one of the basics of my beliefs is that it is the only right way?
Then you are taking away the freedom to choose, and promoting intolerance of other beliefs. I'm assuming you are discussing religion here, correct me if I am wrong. Allow me to give you an example just to clarify my point: one of my friends when she was little in elementary school had another girl come up to her and tell her she was going to hell because she was not of the same religion. My friend went home to her mother and cried and cried, and to this day still remembers that incident. It is not the fault of the child who told her that she was going to hell, but rather of the parents for imposing their beliefs on their daughter at such a young age, and not teaching her tolerance for other religions.

Corneliu, congrats and good luck on the upcoming year!!!!

Crappy school then. I made it a point to disagree with the teacher on everything and I still got one of the highest grades in that class :D (a study of international relations).

Same here, with the exception of one prof who didn't appreciate being disagreed with (in which case I just went over his head to the faculty and got re-graded), the rest of my professors and teachers enjoyed and welcomed dissenting opinions, as long as they were well argued and thought out.

That was just at the highschool. In Elementary school, I had to learn to defend myself since the teachers did absolutely not a damn thing regarding school bullys. Apparently bullies are smiled upon while those that take down bullies aren't. Tell me why a kid has to defend himself from a bully?
They shouldn't, but again, you cannot generalize all schools. I have had teachers that ignored bullies, but many who did not.

Your one of the few that do.
No, I am one of the many that do.

And how long ago was that?
I graduated high school in 1997, so 8 years at least. Educational law as well as classroom management was 5 years ago. The last time I was in a US classroom teaching where I had to break up a spat of bullying was 3 years. The last time I stopped an issue of violence was yesterday.

If they report it, nothing is ever done about it apparently.
No, it is often not reported. When teachers DO find out about it, and ask the victim, we get the "Well no one would do anything about it anyway!" Teacher: "Did you tell someone?" Student: "No."
:rolleyes:

Since the teachers are the ones that are more easily seen and not the administration personel, yes, they do get the blame.
They do get the blaime, yes, but are usually not letting things slide. There is also a lot more going on, including issues of law and liability, that you are not aware of. Especially now.

Care to provide a link please?
US News has placed that section behind their pay only. *sighs* I have a secondary source for you if you're interested, or I can find the orginal studies if you wish; later on, I have classes to teach in a bit.

Do as you will, I don't care.
*Blinks* I am willing to gather the studies for your own research on this if you wish, and not from web sites with agendas, but from peer reviewed journals. But if that was more an attack on my orginal post and you really don't want to know, I won't spend the time on it.

Edit: I'm sorry you had a bad experiance in the public school system when you were there. I didn't enjoy a great deal of my time either. The fact that I didn't, and the teachers who I had who DID make a difference with me is what inspired me to go back and change the place.

But please do not generalize all schools and teachers from the from your own experiance. That is no different from me condeming all of the US Goverment and military due to their negligence causing the death of my father. It is wrong to assume ALL things are wrong. Do you not state the same thing in politcal threads?

I have met both good and bad teachers, but most I have met do care and do work hard for the students.

While public schools are taking a lot of heat these days and charter schools are less than perfect, I was wondering what people thought of home schooling?

I am personally against it as socialization is part of the learning process and statistically Home schooled kids are more likely to fail-out or drop in college. What are your thoughts?

As a trained teacher, I think it's unrealistic to believe that a parent can adequately teach their children beyond 6th grade. There are good reasons that teachers specialize at the high school level - the info and skills they teach start becoming more and more specific. Most (all?) US states require teachers to continue their education through conferences, seminars, or graduate level classes. How many parents would be willing to do this? My experience is that parents of home schooled kids typically believe that public schools are not conservative enough. One family I know home schools because of two musically gifted kids who benefit from a more flexible schedule. However, they will likely attend a public high school when old enough.

I believe the socialization that occurrs in school is not exactly perfect, but public schools offer more diversity interacting with families of different religions, family structures, race, values, etc than you can ever get from a home setting. I don't think there is an equivalent for this experience in any other setting.

As for the argument about schools not teaching job-skills, I believe that's not necessarily the role of Pre-12 schools. Schools should offer some courses for kids who don't plan on attending a college or trade school. However, schools should teach kids HOW to think, not WHAT to think.

I believe the socialization that occurrs in school is not exactly perfect, but public schools offer more diversity interacting with families of different religions, family structures, race, values, etc than you can ever get from a home setting. I don't think there is an equivalent for this experience in any other setting.

....However, schools should teach kids HOW to think, not WHAT to think.
VERY well said Scoobiapolis. My main concern with homeschooling is exactly that it allows the parents to teach the kids what to think instead of how to think, and some will take advantage of that. As well I do not think that most parents are qualified to teach at home past elementary, no matter if they have video courses or textbooks from some homeschooler order service.

Then you are taking away the freedom to choose, and promoting intolerance of other beliefs. I'm assuming you are discussing religion here, correct me if I am wrong. Allow me to give you an example just to clarify my point: one of my friends when she was little in elementary school had another girl come up to her and tell her she was going to hell because she was not of the same religion. My friend went home to her mother and cried and cried, and to this day still remembers that incident. It is not the fault of the child who told her that she was going to hell, but rather of the parents for imposing their beliefs on their daughter at such a young age, and not teaching her tolerance for other religions.
I do tolerate other religions, I do not have to believe they are right or lie to my children and tell them they are.
Tolerate- put up with something or somebody unpleasant
In my view there is only one right way. I wouldn't take away my children's right to choose nor would I take away anyone elses. I live in America, people have the freedom here to believe whatever they want, whether I agree with it or not.

2 Corinthians 6:14 (New International Version)
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:14 (New International Version)
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

Jesus - Judge not lest ye also be judged....
- Love thy neighbour as thy selves - he was tolerant of jews, muslims, romans, and so forth....
and by tolerant, I mean he accepted them, and treated them with respect and kindness, if you read the new testament there are plenty of instances of this. Anyway this is entirely off-topic so I will stop now.

As a trained teacher, I think it's unrealistic to believe that a parent can adequately teach their children beyond 6th grade. There are good reasons that teachers specialize at the high school level - the info and skills they teach start becoming more and more specific. Most (all?) US states require teachers to continue their education through conferences, seminars, or graduate level classes. How many parents would be willing to do this? My experience is that parents of home schooled kids typically believe that public schools are not conservative enough. One family I know home schools because of two musically gifted kids who benefit from a more flexible schedule. However, they will likely attend a public high school when old enough.

I believe the socialization that occurrs in school is not exactly perfect, but public schools offer more diversity interacting with families of different religions, family structures, race, values, etc than you can ever get from a home setting. I don't think there is an equivalent for this experience in any other setting.

As for the argument about schools not teaching job-skills, I believe that's not necessarily the role of Pre-12 schools. Schools should offer some courses for kids who don't plan on attending a college or trade school. However, schools should teach kids HOW to think, not WHAT to think.


People are going on and on in this thread about how one shouldn't generalize public schools. I agree, there is a huge range in which public schools fall when it comes to quality of education. BUT, I also find it strange that homeschooling is being so generalized. There are a great many ways to do it, and while i agree that it's unfortunate that a good amount of people are doing it for the wrong reasons (fundamental christianity being one of them, in the extreme cases.)

Personally, I was taught by tutors who were all excellent in their fields. I became fluent in German by being taught by native german with many years of experience teaching the language, was taught math by a University professor, so well, I might add, that i was doing calculus as a sophmore, and was taught most of my history from a professor at Dartmouth. I was also instructed in music, painting and drama through regional public facilities, and took courses at the local University during the summers. My mother is a high school humanities teacher, so we did the rest on our own. I ended up with test scores in the upper 90th percentile on the SAT and GED and am now enrolled in a university on full scholarship.

There are many ways to do it, it's not all parents in their living rooms with their kids being kooky. Don't be so quick to assume so.

Home schooling generally sucks. Public schooling, provided by the government, is a little better. Private, really fucking expensive schooling is best. What the eff at 15% of people from my school going onto to do medicine. That means 15% of the entire school get perfect results each year. I doubt either alternatives could compete with that.

Keep in mind that private schools can turn down just about any student for just about any reason. They do NOT have to accept students with special needs, kids with behavior problems, or families who can't afford a private education.

On the other hand, US public schools are mandated to educate every child for free. (yes, there are taxes, but people too poor to pay taxes can still send their kids to school)

So...is medicine the one job that proves that you've "made it"? How about accounting, teaching, law, auto repair, plumbing, etc?

ok, one thing i noticed thruout this entire 14 page thread is that everyone seems to think that the term "homeschooled" means we don't socialise at all, and we are locked in a box from the outside world. now there are some homeschoolers who don't know how to relate to the real world, but most of us are completly normal. i have plenty of friends, and i'm not a "super genious nerd who has absolutely no fasion sense and thinks PBS is cool". also, another complaint was that "our parents are completly inadequate of teaching us". one thing i'd like to note out is that 80% of my education isn't taught by my mom. if my mom knows she isn't capable of teaching me something, i can take it other places. i have a school for homeschoolers that i can take classes at college style where you pick out specific classes, taught by qualified instructors. also, the curriculimic freedom opens up other oppurtunities, for example i can take dual credit classes at my local community college, earn dual credit, and have it apply to my college education. also, in many instances the extra-curricular activities are unparalleled. i am taking acting from an instructor who also teaches at a local college, and vairous preforming arts (vocal, insturmental, they also offer dance) from a group of credible, paid teachers. in our area we also have a superb debate league, sevral homeschool league sports teams (many who compete at a national level), and all other various stuff. we aren't complete rejects.

i have plenty of friends, and i'm not a "super genious nerd who has absolutely no fasion sense and thinks PBS is cool".
Well that is just not true, you can have friends and still think that PBS is awesome. :D

And you yelled that you have to have studies and how them off to make assumptions and yet YOU can call them like you see them? I don't think so. Back up your assumption that schools fail to stop violence or that they are failing.

I'm not sure which assertions you say I haven't backed up. Please specify.

Who says they don't? You DO have access to scholarly databases right?
Then you might want to start off with this one:
Jones, Paul and Gene Gloeckner. First year college peformance: a study of home school graduates and traditional school graduates, The Journal of College Admission. Spring 2004, PP 17-20.

Not online, but I work pretty close to a place where I can probably access it.

And then work your way through the bibliography like I did. Since most folks don't have access to said databases, that's why I didn't post them.

Fair enough. I'll tell you what I find.


Look up the large amount of grammar schools from American colonial times forward. Many students went to these schools.

I can't look up what doesn't exist.

Or, if not, show me where you say most or all students were home schooled in America until manditory education laws. Those laws just said you HAD to go to school, not that there were not public schools at the time.

This sort of ties in to what I was asking earlier, but have you looked at my previous posts? I felt like this information was already addressed. I'm extremely unfond of reposting, but since this thread is getting rather lengthly I probably wouldn't mind doing it.

I've never seen a teacher do this.


Not in secondary school, but in college I've had more teachers crack and scream at me in class than I can count on one hand.


I know. Hard to believe, isn't it? :)

Tell you what guys, I'm homeschooled, and I love it. I get to sleep in, get home cooked meals (At least sometimes :p ) and take a break and get on the computer if I get sick of doing school. It's the best.

As for education standards, hah, don't make me laugh. I have to take a standardized test every year or so, and I regularly score in the 90th percentile in every subject. Homeschoolers, by an large, get a much better education than their public school counterparts, which is sad.

And no, home schooled children are NOT more likely to suceed at college. The few studies conducted (and there are just a few) show no significant difference between home schooled student and public schooled students in terms of sucess in college.

Ok, good news and bad news. First, the good news. I looked up the article and, by my assessment, it is credible. It also substantiated your claim that homeschooled kids, all other things being equal, perform approximately identically to their non-homeschooled counterparts. The final piece of good news (if you care to call it that) is that, factually, I now perceive you as reasonably credible and informed.

The bad news, if you care to call it that, is that i'm still interpreting the results of the study slightly differently than you. The study found that homeschooled kids with the same GPA, ACT scores, and credits earned were just as likely to be retained in college as non-homeschooled students. However, as the study points out, the higher the GPA and ACT scores, the more likely the student will return for a second year and earn more credits; as the study points out, the first-year mean GPA of sampled homeschooled students was 2.79, whereas the mean GPA of sampled non-homeschooled students was 2.59. Further, the mean ACT of homeschooled students is 22.8 whereas the mean ACT of non-homeschooled students is 21.3. What this means is that the average homeschooled student outperformed the average non-homeschooled student in the first year of college and is more likely to return and succeed in college.

To quote the Journal, Table 2 shows that the ACT Composite, Mathematics and Science subtests scores of home school graduates approached statistical significance compared to the same scores for traditional graduates. Because the previous research did not support home school graduates consistently out-performing their traditional high school peers, the researchers did not predict that home school graduates would have performed better than traditional high school graduates. If the researchers would have expected this difference and tested the variables as a one-tailed test, home school graduates would have scored statistically higher than their peers on the ACT Composite, Mathematics and Science subtests scores.

Further, Although not statistically significant, the average first-year GPAs, credits earned in the first year, ACT Composite test scores, and ACT English, Mathematics, Reading, and Science and Reasoning subtests for home school graduates were all higher than traditional high school graduates.

So to summarize, homeschooled students perform as well as (though possibly better than) their non-homeschooled counterparts their first year of college, both in terms of GPA and retention.

The other good news: I think that I misread your original post, so I think that we're in agreement at this point. There were some other assertions in this thread, such as by the thread's original author, that homeschooled students typically buckle the first year of college with a dropout rate in excess of 50%. I was reacting more to that assertion than yours, and I think you just caught the tail end of my frustration with getting that person to back up his claim. Regardless, I applaud the forthcoming of your information, and I don't believe that I have any further disputes with you on measurable data. I know that you had raised some question as to assertions I have previously made, but I'm afraid that I wasn't sure what in particular you were interested in me backing up. Let me know, and I'll do my best.

I'm not sure which assertions you say I haven't backed up. Please specify.
In this case, I was reacting to the statement that all public schools have failed, teachers do not curtail violence, and that home schooling is (inherantly) better than traditional schooling. You replied you just call them like you see them, which is why I responded with asking for your source of.

I can't look up what doesn't exist.
Oh brother, you're going to make me dig out my history of education texts aren't you? First I have to figure out which country the damn thing is in and I'll get back to you. I would say though if memeory serves, there was actually a goodly amount of these lower level grammar schools around the country at the time. Many more than most people would actually think.

This sort of ties in to what I was asking earlier, but have you looked at my previous posts? I felt like this information was already addressed. I'm extremely unfond of reposting, but since this thread is getting rather lengthly I probably wouldn't mind doing it.
Yes, I actually have read through the whole mess, and I find your argument lacking as it is based upon only test scores on standardized tests, which is not, and was never ment to be, a measure of true academic fitness. They don't measure well enough, properly, and tend to let both the best and brightest, and those at the bottom, slip through the cracks.

It's why good teachers never use JUST tests as a evaluation tool, but a wide range of tools to get the measure of a student's progress.

Ok, good news and bad news. First, the good news. I looked up the article and, by my assessment, it is credible. It also substantiated your claim that homeschooled kids, all other things being equal, perform approximately identically to their non-homeschooled counterparts. The final piece of good news (if you care to call it that) is that, factually, I now perceive you as reasonably credible and informed.
Thanks... I think.

The bad news, if you care to call it that, is that i'm still interpreting the results of the study slightly differently than you. The study found that homeschooled kids with the same GPA, ACT scores, and credits earned were just as likely to be retained in college as non-homeschooled students. However, as the study points out, the higher the GPA and ACT scores, the more likely the student will return for a second year and earn more credits; as the study points out, the first-year mean GPA of sampled homeschooled students was 2.79, whereas the mean GPA of sampled non-homeschooled students was 2.59. Further, the mean ACT of homeschooled students is 22.8 whereas the mean ACT of non-homeschooled students is 21.3. What this means is that the average homeschooled student outperformed the average non-homeschooled student in the first year of college and is more likely to return and succeed in college.
The study does indeed note that, however like I said, the study also find no real significant difference between the two groups. Which shows, to me, that both ways of education are performing as they should in preparing students for college life, academically at least. Socially is another question, and I am critical of both groups in that regards.

So to summarize, homeschooled students perform as well as (though possibly better than) their non-homeschooled counterparts their first year of college, both in terms of GPA and retention.

The other good news: I think that I misread your original post, so I think that we're in agreement at this point. There were some other assertions in this thread, such as by the thread's original author, that homeschooled students typically buckle the first year of college with a dropout rate in excess of 50%. I was reacting more to that assertion than yours, and I think you just caught the tail end of my frustration with getting that person to back up his claim. Regardless, I applaud the forthcoming of your information, and I don't believe that I have any further disputes with you on measurable data. I know that you had raised some question as to assertions I have previously made, but I'm afraid that I wasn't sure what in particular you were interested in me backing up. Let me know, and I'll do my best.
My position is that home schooling is not inhearently better than traditonal schooling. This thread seems to take it as a one or the other, whereas I have been stating that it is all dependant upon the teachers, schools, parents, and more importantly, the STUDENT on if home school works or not.

There are still far too many questions to state one is better than the other right now (access to materials, special needs, etc).

That's where I am going with this, that home school works well for some kids, but not for others. Public does wonders for some kids, but not for others. A wise parent would seek out wise teachers and discuss the best options for a student before automatically assuming, in my opinion.

Jesus - Judge not lest ye also be judged....
- Love thy neighbour as thy selves - he was tolerant of jews, muslims, romans, and so forth....
and by tolerant, I mean he accepted them, and treated them with respect and kindness, if you read the new testament there are plenty of instances of this. Anyway this is entirely off-topic so I will stop now.
I do agree that we have gotten off topic, but decided I would reply anyway.

judge not lest ye also be judged....
MATTHEW 7:1-5:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye."
JOHN 7:14: "Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

LUKE 12:57: "Yea, and why not even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?"

PSALM 37:30: "The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment."

PROVERBS 31:9: "Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy."

LUKE 17:3: "Take heed... If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him."

I think you will find most of those are in the new testament

Love your neighbor like yourself
Matt 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

I can love someone and not love thier behavior. If I truly love someone like I love myself, I would want to present them with the Truth, to save them from pain.

As for the rest I can accept that people have the right not to believe the way I do, I can treat them with kindness and can even feign respect for them , but I do not have to agree with thier actions, or lie to them and tell them thier way is okay...
2 Corinthians 6:17"Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you."
18"I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

2 Corinthinans2:19 For you gladly bear with fools, being wise yourselves!

I promise I will try to leave it alone for now so I don't pull everyone off topic

Crappy school then. I made it a point to disagree with the teacher on everything and I still got one of the highest grades in that class :D (a study of international relations).

LOL! At least in college, new thoughts are welcomed. At least at the university that I attend. :D

*snip*

Actually, it wasn't even public educational school system that forced me to go to homeschooling. It forced me to go to a private school (and I did better there than in Public school) but due to a particular incident that the school bosses didn't do a damn thing about, I went to homeschooling and did even better there than I did in Public Schools.

Anyway, the district I moved into was behind from the district I moved out of back in Missouri. Alwell. Have orders will travel.

I don't know. For certain reasons some kids need to be home schoolel, but it does limit their social skills and interaction with their peers. The parents or teachers would have to be very dedicated. It wouldn't have been for me.

As a trained teacher, I think it's unrealistic to believe that a parent can adequately teach their children beyond 6th grade.

My mother has been teaching me since halfway through the 6th grade till I graduated High School.

There are good reasons that teachers specialize at the high school level - the info and skills they teach start becoming more and more specific. Most (all?) US states require teachers to continue their education through conferences, seminars, or graduate level classes.

And yet we have unqualified teachers teaching things that they didn't major in or don't understand. When I was at the highschool for a month before going back to homeschooling, I was dancing around my history teacher because she sucked at teaching it. Apparently, these seminars and conferences failed her.

any parents would be willing to do this? My experience is that parents of home schooled kids typically believe that public schools are not conservative enough. One family I know home schools because of two musically gifted kids who benefit from a more flexible schedule. However, they will likely attend a public high school when old enough.

You sure about that? I went back to public education when I hit highschool. That lasted all of one month because I was bored and ahead of the majority of people in my class. I could've taught that history class with my eyes closed and one hand tied behind my back.

I believe the socialization that occurrs in school is not exactly perfect, but public schools offer more diversity interacting with families of different religions, family structures, race, values, etc than you can ever get from a home setting. I don't think there is an equivalent for this experience in any other setting.

Try Karate, Civil Air Patrol, Track, Cross Country...I had more socialization than most kids can shake a stick at. And that was while I was homeschooled.

As for the argument about schools not teaching job-skills, I believe that's not necessarily the role of Pre-12 schools. Schools should offer some courses for kids who don't plan on attending a college or trade school. However, schools should teach kids HOW to think, not WHAT to think.

I agree with your last line 100%! They need to prepare kids for the real world (and that includes those that aren't going to college)! They don't. They teach you what you need to pass those worthless SATs and no more. It is the role of the school to teach you job skills, especially for those who aren't going to college and for those that do go to college, get them prepared for college. Schools aren't doing that and it is hurting our children.

I don't know. For certain reasons some kids need to be home schoolel, but it does limit their social skills and interaction with their peers. The parents or teachers would have to be very dedicated. It wouldn't have been for me.

I guess you didn't read the whole thread then? Many homeschoolers posted what they do for socialization.

I was involved with C.A.P., Track, Cross Country, Karate, and was even elected to student government because my school districted allowed us to take 2 non-core classes and I happened to have a homeroom in between 1st and 2nd period.

Is that enough socialization for ya?

It is the role of the school to teach you job skills, especially for those who aren't going to college and for those that do go to college, get them prepared for college. Schools aren't doing that and it is hurting our children.
No it isn't. The role of the schools is to prepare future citizens by passing along the traditions, values, views, and skills deemed important by the previous generation to the next.

Part of the problem is that the previous generation has yet to agree what to pass on, some folks THINK we should just be teaching job skills, some think we should be preparing open ended students, and so on. Schools reflect the society that houses them, not the other way around.

Which is why fixing the schools will take a lot more time, work, and money than anyone wants to put in. And why No Child Left Behind isn't even a start, really, on addressing the problems.

Which is why fixing the schools will take a lot more time, work, and money than anyone wants to put in. And why No Child Left Behind isn't even a start, really, on addressing the problems.

It just put more responsibilities on the states.

However, if you want to start to fix the educational school system, get rid of the federal influence. That means, dissolving the Federal Department of Education. That is just a waste of tax payer dollars. Get rid of that and begin to revamp it through the state Education Departments.

It just put more responsibilities on the states.

However, if you want to start to fix the educational school system, get rid of the federal influence. That means, dissolving the Federal Department of Education. That is just a waste of tax payer dollars. Get rid of that and begin to revamp it through the state Education Departments.
The Department of Education doesn't actually DO all that much. It has no real control over local boards.

Actually, for an post-industrial country, the US is very strange in the lack of control the central goverment has over its educational systems.

As much as we would like to get rid of federal control we need federal money. And Congress loves putting in "You want money do what we say" bits into legislation.

There just isn't enough money to keep a lot of schools open and functioning if we lost all federal funds. Parents always wanting whats best for their children, until they have to pay for it.

As a grandparent who has helped my daughter home-school her daughter for one semester, I can say that it is the toughest job we have ever done. But the results were unbelievably superior to anything that can be done in the public schools of the USA.

My daughter and I prepared the course of study without any help of the local school office; in fact, no one from that office even came by to see what we were doing!!!!! My granddaughter's math, science, English, and health courses were taught in the morning. Her French, history, music, art, and geography courses were taught in the afternoon.

Although she never had French before, by the end of the semester she could understand, read, write, and speak French so well that she was enrolled in the 2rd year of French at a private school! And that after 4 months. She was never assigned busy work; every assignment was carefully planned to make her think. I am wholeheartedly in favor of home-schooling. The only caveat is that the parents / grandparents must be well educated.

The disadvantages (no sports programs, no school orchestra, no social interaction with her age group) are easily offset by local programs at the boys' and girls' club in our town and by excursions with her friends to nearby museums, skating rinks, swimming pools, etc.

A word about public schools: which English teacher with 5 classes of 25-30 pupils each would assign one essay per week? To correct 125 - 150 per week would take a whole weekend. As long as the public schools are starved for funding (from property taxes) and class size remains higher than 15 pupils, young people will not receive the kind of education that will stimulate them. And believe me, every young person would do as well as my granddaughter, given the attention and the wonderful course plan that she had in her home-schooling. Note: in her private school, the class size never went above 9-10.

So to summarize:

1. You still can't back up your claims
2. It doesn't matter that you still can't back up your claims because you just know it's true, darn it
3. U.C. Berkeley's research is conducted by people who make claims they can't back up
4. U.C. Berekely has a campus in upstate New York


Oh, if and when you get your paper at reviewed, I'm sure you'll make sure to mention at the onset that you knew what the results were going to be before it was published.

To retort your summary:

1) The data is available and quotable, simply not on the net.
2) Regardless of my backing, it still exists.
3) UC Berkely generally doesn't work to publish research they "can't back up"
4) Being a free lancer means it really doesn't matter where I am in respect to the client. There is this great new tool called the web that interacts with another great tool called e-mail that allows me to work with people who are not in Upstate NY, or in a few cases even the United States.

As far as saying that someone knew the results prior to publishing...that's generally the way it works. A person (or group of people) form a Hypotheisis, test the hypothesis, then publish the results. While there are times when the hypothesis was completely wrong, that is generally outlined in the published piece.

I was a public schooled kid. I scored in the 99th percentile on standardized test, enjoy a lovely social life, have plenty of friends of varying economic, social, political, and religious backgrounds.

How am I socially dysfunctional? I have taught classes, worked with children, been in a couple mildly successful bands. People tend to like me immediately. I think socially, I do pretty well.

Here's what I've seen (especially on High School and College Campuses) of the social interaction of home schooled children. The are clique-ish, elitist, under socialized kids, often paused socially to whatever period it was that their parents pulled them from school. On the college level over 50% of home schooled kids drop out in their first year, being unable to balance the workload and the social pressures of college.


Public and private schools provide education in a social atmosphere. Regardless of how a parent that home schools tries to defend it, home schooling causes a phenomenon that sociologists call "Social Retardation".

How is that better for a child?

Social Retardation is a myth, and it is terribly sad that you and so many other people have bought into it.

I was also a public school kid. I rated exceptionally high as well. I never had a lack of friends. That being said, Public school itself failed me miserably. It bored me to TEARS. It was so easy,that when I got to college I had no clue how to study, because I had never had to do it before. I took all the highest lvl Honor classes my high school offered. So it wasn't like I took "breezey" courses to float through.

That being said, now that I am a parent of a child of school age, I have got to say public school IS NOT the same now as it was. The parental rights have been revoked on such a level that, they are practically nonexsistant anymore. No one is saying, or has ever said, that all public school children are socially disfunctional. Certainly an absurd way of looking at things. But school is a much more dangerous place than it was even during the 1990's.


I have no idea where you're "seeing" this about homeschooled children. I did an extensive amount of research before I made the CHOICE to remove my child from the public school system. I went out of my way to meet parents, children currently being homeschooled, and adults who were homeschooled. Not a single instance did i see "elitist attitudes" or "under socialisted" EVER. In fact, it was quite the opposite. I found the children had BETTER manners, knew how to balance their workloads more independantly BECAUSE they'd been doing it longer. And this garbage of 50% of homeschooled kids dropping out college does not comply with the fact that colleges are now actively recruiting MORE homeschooled kids because they do better than traditionally public school products.

Basically, by your estimation, my child will be socially "frozen" at the age of 9. As a parent, (forget the homeschooling aspect) if I allowed that to happen, I have failed. Parents who choose to homeschool aren't cheating their kids out of anything. If anything, my daughter is more aware of the world around her. At age 10, she is more aware of how the government works, how the economy works, and is starting to see how big the world actually is. She enjoys playing with children her age, she's excellent with children younger than she is, and easily converses with kids several years older than she is.

Being homeschooled doesn't mean you never leave the house. If anything, we get out more than we ever did and our house has more sleepovers with friends than we ever did, too.

Sadly,the biggest thing most homeschooled kids face, is debunking this institutionalized garbage that they lack the social skills to survive in "the real world",when actually, they've been interacting with it for longer.

Social Retardation is a myth, and it is terribly sad that you and so many other people have bought into it.

I was also a public school kid. I rated exceptionally high as well. I never had a lack of friends. That being said, Public school itself failed me miserably. It bored me to TEARS. It was so easy,that when I got to college I had no clue how to study, because I had never had to do it before. I took all the highest lvl Honor classes my high school offered. So it wasn't like I took "breezey" courses to float through.

That being said, now that I am a parent of a child of school age, I have got to say public school IS NOT the same now as it was. The parental rights have been revoked on such a level that, they are practically nonexsistant anymore. No one is saying, or has ever said, that all public school children are socially disfunctional. Certainly an absurd way of looking at things. But school is a much more dangerous place than it was even during the 1990's.


I have no idea where you're "seeing" this about homeschooled children. I did an extensive amount of research before I made the CHOICE to remove my child from the public school system. I went out of my way to meet parents, children currently being homeschooled, and adults who were homeschooled. Not a single instance did i see "elitist attitudes" or "under socialisted" EVER. In fact, it was quite the opposite. I found the children had BETTER manners, knew how to balance their workloads more independantly BECAUSE they'd been doing it longer. And this garbage of 50% of homeschooled kids dropping out college does not comply with the fact that colleges are now actively recruiting MORE homeschooled kids because they do better than traditionally public school products.

Basically, by your estimation, my child will be socially "frozen" at the age of 9. As a parent, (forget the homeschooling aspect) if I allowed that to happen, I have failed. Parents who choose to homeschool aren't cheating their kids out of anything. If anything, my daughter is more aware of the world around her. At age 10, she is more aware of how the government works, how the economy works, and is starting to see how big the world actually is. She enjoys playing with children her age, she's excellent with children younger than she is, and easily converses with kids several years older than she is.

Being homeschooled doesn't mean you never leave the house. If anything, we get out more than we ever did and our house has more sleepovers with friends than we ever did, too.

Sadly,the biggest thing most homeschooled kids face, is debunking this institutionalized garbage that they lack the social skills to survive in "the real world",when actually, they've been interacting with it for longer.

Here here Channon! Well said and accurate in everything you have said. Keep it up :)

Thanks again from this former homeschooler :)

No it isn't. The role of the schools is to prepare future citizens by passing along the traditions, values, views, and skills deemed important by the previous generation to the next.


Nervun, I like you, so don't take it the wrong way when I ask if the parents of your students are aware of this!

As a trained teacher, I think it's unrealistic to believe that a parent can adequately teach their children beyond 6th grade. There are good reasons that teachers specialize at the high school level - the info and skills they teach start becoming more and more specific. Most (all?) US states require teachers to continue their education through conferences, seminars, or graduate level classes. How many parents would be willing to do this? My experience is that parents of home schooled kids typically believe that public schools are not conservative enough. One family I know home schools because of two musically gifted kids who benefit from a more flexible schedule. However, they will likely attend a public high school when old enough..

As a parent, I find your attitude (as a teacher) disturbing and arrogant. Sadly, I know, you're attitude is typical because teachers treat parents exactly that way. Too many teachers seem to think that if a parent isn't a teacher by profession, the parent doesn't understand past a 6th grade level. I can say this, because I have sat through parent/teacher conferences and have been treated that way. As a parent who homeschools, I am hardly inept. Admittedly, I don't take college courses to "keep up" or whatever, but I'll tell you, I spend many months preparing myself for the lessons with my daughter. I don't have a curriculum handed to me by a school district. I choose the books. I choose the movies. I choose every level throughout the process. So, when the time comes to teach my daughter algebra, I'll be ready. I'm not worried about my abilities for this. Quite simply, I will not allow myself to not be prepared because I will not allow myself to fail my daughter.



This is such a blind outlook and obviously stated by someone who doesn't want to look at the fact that people interact....period. With all of the options out there for homeschooling families, the interaction with kids who are "different" from them is just as viable as in public school. You make this statement but when I went high school, my graduating class had the 2nd black girl EVER graduate with us...her sister was the first the year before.

[FONT=Comic Sans MSAs for the argument about schools not teaching job-skills, I believe that's not necessarily the role of Pre-12 schools. Schools should offer some courses for kids who don't plan on attending a college or trade school. However, schools should teach kids HOW to think, not WHAT to think.

Sadly, if this were the case, I'd cheer wildly. But it isn't. The modern public school is about teaching children what to think. The public school system in general does teach children what to think because of the slant they present things to the kids. They are attempting to remove the parental aspect of teaching on so many fronts. I can say this because of the many news articles and personal experience.

My example http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_2947234

Nervun, I like you, so don't take it the wrong way when I ask if the parents of your students are aware of this!

There in lies the rub. The parents. I noticed in Channon's post she (I believe she sorry if I'm wrong) said something about if X, then I have failed as a parent, and that parents have been cut-off from public school life.

Basically, I believe that this is because of too many bullying, litigous parents. My wife worked at a school where a certain minority kid got whatever he wanted because his dad was a lawyer and loved to scream Racism.

Too much control of the classroom has been given to parents. Teachers should be able to navigate a curriculum without undo political influence. I feel that this is the reason public schools get a bad rap.

However, I don't feel that home schooling is the answer. It's kind of saying, "Oh I, see the problem, but instead of trying to improve the situation I will do my best to avoid it."

Community is detracted from when everyone only concerns themselves with personal issues.

Sadly, if this were the case, I'd cheer wildly. But it isn't. The modern public school is about teaching children what to think. The public school system in general does teach children what to think because of the slant they present things to the kids. They are attempting to remove the parental aspect of teaching on so many fronts. I can say this because of the many news articles and personal experience.

I agree...but then could argue the same about home schooling. Even following the standards set aside for home school teachers and students, anything outside of that realm that can be taught probably is.

How many home schoolers of Fundamentally Religious parents get taught that that is ultimate belief system?

Beyond that, you have colleges that align themselves with a train of thought and texturize their pedagogy to fit their system.

It isn't just PreK-12. And it isn't just public school.

To retort your summary:

1) The data is available and quotable, simply not on the net.
2) Regardless of my backing, it still exists.
3) UC Berkely generally doesn't work to publish research they "can't back up"
4) Being a free lancer means it really doesn't matter where I am in respect to the client. There is this great new tool called the web that interacts with another great tool called e-mail that allows me to work with people who are not in Upstate NY, or in a few cases even the United States.

As far as saying that someone knew the results prior to publishing...that's generally the way it works. A person (or group of people) form a Hypotheisis, test the hypothesis, then publish the results. While there are times when the hypothesis was completely wrong, that is generally outlined in the published piece.

My retort to your retort :)

1. Ok, so just cite the source--any source-- I'll check it out. Seriously.
2. Ok, so tell me where to find the research--any research--that supports your premise that homeschooled kids drop out of college at a disproportionately higher rate than non-homeschooled kids.
3. "generally." awesome :)
4. Fair enough. It still surprises me though. Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with the process for whatever program you're doing this through, but I was under the impression that Universities that conduct these sorts of studies did the research themselves and didn't hire free lance whatevers. I thought that was the whole point of them doing the research--any boob can hire someone else to do the work for them. But as I said, maybe I've made some false assumptions.

As to your last point, you probably totally got me there; it's been a long time since I've been in the social science mindframe.

There in lies the rub. The parents. I noticed in Channon's post she (I believe she sorry if I'm wrong) said something about if X, then I have failed as a parent, and that parents have been cut-off from public school life..

What I said was that if I allowed my daughter to stagnate at the social skills of a 9 yr old, then I have failed as a parent. Homeschooled or not doesn't matter. So the social aspect of homeschool or public school, in my opinion, is moot.

Basically, I believe that this is because of too many bullying, litigous parents. My wife worked at a school where a certain minority kid got whatever he wanted because his dad was a lawyer and loved to scream Racism.

There are parents who do abuse the system. However, that isn't the norm. I once asked my daughter's 3rd grade teacher what they were currently learning in Math...I was told they teach "concepts". That is the only answer I could EVER get out of her and her boss. I was told that none of my child's school work could ever be sent home to be finished.


Too much control of the classroom has been given to parents. Teachers should be able to navigate a curriculum without undo political influence. I feel that this is the reason public schools get a bad rap.

Political influence permeates the public school to the nth degree. And, if you're not a parent that works in the copy room at the school, then you're not a parent worth talking to. Sorry, I've spoken to too many parents who flinch and groan when talking about the "nightmare" of dealing with public schools. (And not just other homeschooling parents)

However, I don't feel that home schooling is the answer.

Honestly, until my daughter's 3rd grade nightmare, I kept looking for other options. I considered moving my child to another public school in the school district. I looked at private schools (the bank account nixed that one). My husband and I spent countless hours in conferences with my child's teacher, the principal, the vice principal, the school counselor, and the head teacher of the 3rd grade. I finally saw it was a futile point.

Homeschooling isn't for everyone. It isn't for every child or parent. But, it is a choice that is becoming more and more popular because the public school system is failing miserably. Sadly, I don't see any way to fix it...at least not quickly. And unfortunately, school is something of a personal level. And removing my child from something that was failing for her, was the only option I had as a parent to protect her.

My retort to your retort :)

1. Ok, so just cite the source--any source-- I'll check it out. Seriously.
2. Ok, so tell me where to find the research--any research--that supports your premise that homeschooled kids drop out of college at a disproportionately higher rate than non-homeschooled kids.
3. "generally." awesome :)
4. Fair enough. It still surprises me though. Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with the process for whatever program you're doing this through, but I was under the impression that Universities that conduct these sorts of studies did the research themselves and didn't hire free lance whatevers. I thought that was the whole point of them doing the research--any boob can hire someone else to do the work for them. But as I said, maybe I've made some false assumptions.

As to your last point, you probably totally got me there; it's been a long time since I've been in the social science mindframe.


This can go back and forth forever.

1) It's on my hard drive and I can't give it out as it isn't mine to give.
2) See #1
3) I overuse the word generally, perhaps I should have said rarely or nearly never.
4) I'm not doing the research. I'm working on a site to present the data. I agree that any boob can hire someone to do their research for them, that's a 2 way street. I can argue that most stats propagating home schooling are from none other than the home schooling networks. But that really isn't what this situation is, I just make websites, kind of, I do other things too.

Too many teachers seem to think that if a parent isn't a teacher by profession, the parent doesn't understand past a 6th grade level.

Well, yeah... everyone thinks that they're important and the world can't do without them.

A few studies have been listed or identified in this thread that support the notion that homeschooled kids entering college are just as likely, if not more likely, to succeed in college, regardless of the level of parental education or training. I mean, yeah, a professional teacher will probably get better results than an untrained person when teaching a class of 20-30 students. But if you're talking about an individual going through the public school curriculum in classes of 20-30 with all the distractions that go on there versus a mom with a high school education going through that same curriculum 5 days a week with her two kids, my money is still on the homeschooled kids.

Anecdotally, I've been diagnosed with ADD, but don't take drugs for it because I don't like how it changes my personality, I'm concerned about long-term effects, and I frankly don't see it as a weakness because I feel that some of my best ideas have come about when my mind wanders. Anyway, throughout my entire public school education, from 4th grade (I was in a private school prior to that) through college and law school, I didn't learn a darn thing in the classroom. I would go in every day, sit in class and not listen to the teacher, and basically daydream for 6 or 8 hours a day. I would go home in the evening, study my books, (get ready for this) learn from my books (God forbid), do my work, and start the process over the next day. My private school was a Montessori school, which was actually very well suited for my ADD-style learning. But in the 2 years of grammar school, 3 years of junior high school, 4 years of high school, 5 years of undergrad, that followed, I literally and non-exaggeratively believe that 95% of my days would have been better spent at home doing self-study. When I got to law school, I would say that a full 50% of that time was best spent in class... but that's only because legal training is formatted completely different from other academic disciplines.

But my point is that I taught myself pretty much everything all the way through undergrad. If anyone cares or thinks it's relevant, "way back when...", I scored at the 97th percentile on the SAT and the 94th percentile on the ACT even though I had never even opened a practice SAT or ACT study guide nor laid eyes on so much as the format of the tests--totally cold turkey. Not bad for a kid with a supposed learning disability (as stated earlier, I don't really perceive it as a disability). But basically, I didn't need a licensed teacher to teach me anything because I learned everything on my own; and if I had had a parent working with me everyday to help me figure stuff out, I probably would have been on full scholarship to Stanford and my days wouldn't have been wasted daydreaming.

So what of the glorious public school system? Aren't they to take credit for some of this academic achievement? Well, when I first went into public schools in 4th grade, I clearly stuck out because I had good manners, didn't curse, and had had a good education up to that point. Plus being the new kid didn't help. So I was naturally beat on daily for the next year. My teachers perceived this to be my fault because I was allegedly failing to integrate, whereas the animals who sent me home with bruises were just kids being kids or whatever the heck their rationale was. Regardless, it was easier to blame me than to fix the problem. Their recommendation: keep me back a grade. Fortunately, my parents had the good sense to see what was going on and wouldn't have it. The next year I was no longer "new" and as people started leaving me alone, the remainder of my public educational experience was pretty much uneventful.

Wow, what a rant.

So in conclusion, because the homeschool and public school environments are so fundamentally different, homeschooling parents do not need a formal education or training for their kids to succeed academically.

This can go back and forth forever.

1) It's on my hard drive and I can't give it out as it isn't mine to give.
2) See #1
3) I overuse the word generally, perhaps I should have said rarely or nearly never.
4) I'm not doing the research. I'm working on a site to present the data. I agree that any boob can hire someone to do their research for them, that's a 2 way street. I can argue that most stats propagating home schooling are from none other than the home schooling networks. But that really isn't what this situation is, I just make websites, kind of, I do other things too.

I think that it's winding down.

1. since it's not peer reviewed or published, and since other information supporting your original assertions are unavailable, it would probably be responsible to not rely on the information until it has been properly vetted.
2. see #1
3. fair enough. I actually knew what you meant, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to exploit it :)
4. that makes perfect sense. i'm sure you'll do a fine job.

Brians Test? I agree about the medications for ADD/ADHD. It changed my personality too and that is why I quit taking mine.

Homeschooling does work but it isn't for everyone as people can attest too. It worked for me and I am better because of it. It has worked for alot of people that i know. Yes, you'll get a few that it doesn't work for but that goes for everything.

With public Education, Channon is right in what she says. My own mother had a hard time with teachers and the prinicple. It got to the point where I was waiting till the last minute to head to school (didn't matter anyway, I was in walking distance and it took a couple of minutes to get there)! That was one reason why I went to a private school before becoming homeschooled.

For gifted kids, public school isn't the place. Of course, being an outsider didn't help matters much either.

I think that it's winding down.

1. since it's not peer reviewed or published, and since other information supporting your original assertions are unavailable, it would probably be responsible to not rely on the information until it has been properly vetted.
2. see #1
3. fair enough. I actually knew what you meant, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to exploit it :)
4. that makes perfect sense. i'm sure you'll do a fine job.

BT, while we aren't on the same page, I must admire your candor and sense of humor.

I will say this though...the research has passed peer review and is in the publishing process now. I will leave at that as this dead horse has been beaten.

If need be, I concede to your victory until such time as I can present the published data.

Brians Test? I agree about the medications for ADD/ADHD. It changed my personality too and that is why I quit taking mine.

Now we are getting on a different topic though. I used to work with a kid at a residential school (I wouldn't call it a public school though technically it is funded by the state).

He was a rambunctious kid, mostly do to parents more concerned with freedom (and their Harley's) than any form of discipline. They decided to drug him at around age 7. He's now 16 and cannot function without meds. It breaks my heart, having known this kid since he was 4.

There has been alot of research done lately on ADD/ADHD/PDD that may lead some to believe these are social, or even dietary, issues instead of mental or genetic disabilities. My jury's still out on that one.

I do know of a kid who was "borderline ADD" that once dairy products were removed from his diet he became calm as anything.

Now we are getting on a different topic though. I used to work with a kid at a residential school (I wouldn't call it a public school though technically it is funded by the state).

He was a rambunctious kid, mostly do to parents more concerned with freedom (and their Harley's) than any form of discipline. They decided to drug him at around age 7. He's now 16 and cannot function without meds. It breaks my heart, having known this kid since he was 4.

There has been alot of research done lately on ADD/ADHD/PDD that may lead some to believe these are social, or even dietary, issues instead of mental or genetic disabilities. My jury's still out on that one.

I do know of a kid who was "borderline ADD" that once dairy products were removed from his diet he became calm as anything.

I noticed you hacked the rest of my post that was on topic. The first paragraph wasn't true but the rest of my post was! Whats' the matter? Can't handle the truth?

Public schools teach kids how to pass exams and how to cheat them thats about it. Home schooling actually gives you some intelligence but you don't get good qualifications from it.

Public schools teach kids how to pass exams and how to cheat them thats about it. Home schooling actually gives you some intelligence but you don't get good qualifications from it.

Would you like to bet on that one?

I noticed you hacked the rest of my post that was on topic. The first paragraph wasn't true but the rest of my post was! Whats' the matter? Can't handle the truth?

It's not really a matter of truth or handling the truth. I only took the first paragraph to branch into a different direction. I wasn't intending to add or detract from what you said, just inputting a bit of speculation.

No offense intended, sorry.

Public schools teach kids how to pass exams and how to cheat them thats about it. Home schooling actually gives you some intelligence but you don't get good qualifications from it.

I'm not sure how you're basing this opinion on either public school or home school for that matter. Today's current public school teaches to the test, meaning that the results of the state sposonored test is the "end all, be all". But it doesn't really teach the children how to properly study for a test or how to deal with the stress of a test (the SAT or ACT tests for example).

That being said, where you go to school doesn't determine your intelligence. And why can't you get good qulaifications from it? Seems to be a very odd statement, at least to me.

Nervun, I like you, so don't take it the wrong way when I ask if the parents of your students are aware of this!
None taken as I had the same question on my first day of teacher education when I was presented with this bit. But as my studies progressed, I found that it is actually right.

Look at it this way, who decides upon the curriculm at the schools? It's not the teachers, we are told WHAT to teach, we just get to decide HOW to teach WHAT we have to teach. So who decides upon what should be taught? As one of my professors put it, tis the great school board that meets in the capital every so often that decides such things from appointing state school board members (if that is how your state runs things), to budget, to standards, it's the state goverments that so decide. Who tells them what to do? The people. WE elect the ones who (hopefully) share our values, from legislature to local school boards who then hire the teachers and school administration officals.

It really is the people who decide what vaules to teach, and what is to be taught.

Look at it another way. Think about how schools are set up in America. Think of all the lessons learned therein, NOT formal classroom, but little things you don't always think of.

Where did you learn to line up ON YOUR OWN (Not parents yanking you in line), the school.
Grades are set up to encourage compitition
Individual work encourages individualism
Kids are encouraged to ask questions and challenge the teacher (believe you me, when you go to another country, you find out how active American schools are, even if Americans don't think so).
Kids are taught majority rules in vote taking from what to eat at a class party to student goverment
Kids are taught how to work together with group projects

These aren't formal classroom lessons (I've never heard a teacher saying, "Today I'm going to reinforce the American ideal of democracy by letting you vote on the type of soda to bring to the party on Friday")

Do these not sound like American values that the older generation wishes the younger would learn?

Now in Japan, I am much more aware of this as I see my school doing things that renforce Japanese ideas and values, like group harmony, togetherness, and respecting athority.

That's what we're preparing children for. The problem comes in that, no, not all parents, or teachers, are aware of what the school is doing in that regards. Or, more likely, we have yet to come to an agreement as a culture and society about WHAT we actually want in our schools. Like I said, schools mirror the society they are in and they serve, it's not the other way around.

Which is what most, 'Let's fix the schools and everything will get better' approaches assume.

Did that clarify it?

Channon, I'm sorry you had such a difficult time with your local teachers, but I would like to state just one thing, you are ONE parent with ONE child. I have 500 kids with at least one parent attached.

And some of those parents are not pleasent to deal with either. You said you were offended when your local teacher talked to you as if you were in the 6th grade, try my situation where I only see some parents when something is wrong, they're pissed off at me for daring to fail their child. I haven't seen or heard from them most of the year, and so when they come to see me I am dismissed as JUST a mere teacher so not worth listening to. Times by, say 250, and you have what we get to deal with.

Not excusing the teacher's behavor, but I am explaining.

As for me, I am happy with my public school education. Not to say I didn't have bad teachers (Godddesses YES!), and most of them were just there, but I had some increadably gifted ones who changed my life. I also had bad experiances at school as well (I managed to hit all the catagories that would cause a child problems, ADHD/ADD, Gifted and Talented, Learning Disabled, Section 504 (physical disability), and single parent household with low income and low education. I'm special. ;) ), so no, a lot of school was NOT fun, and it was a constant struggle for my mother and myself.

But I did get a lot out of it, including the determination that I WOULD go back and fix the problems I saw as a teacher, thanks to some teachers who really did care and were able to give me more than I could have ever gotten at home.

However, many have stated here the same opinion as mine, but about home schooling, so perhaps the BEST way to say it is that NEITHER system is better than the other. And that wise parents and teachers should do what we're supposed to do in the first place, open a dialog and work out what is best for the student, home school, private, public, or combination of the above.

This isn't a 'my school is better than yours (or my education)', it's talking about the education of a real student with life long effects.

I'm not sure how you're basing this opinion on either public school or home school for that matter. Today's current public school teaches to the test, meaning that the results of the state sposonored test is the "end all, be all". But it doesn't really teach the children how to properly study for a test or how to deal with the stress of a test (the SAT or ACT tests for example).

That being said, where you go to school doesn't determine your intelligence. And why can't you get good qulaifications from it? Seems to be a very odd statement, at least to me.

I disagree a bit with "where you go yo school doesn't determine your intelligence", though not in the scope of this discussion. And I'm not really referring to intelligence as much as referring to what is taught/what is learned.

When I lived in the south I nearly vommited with their public school standards. They had 3rd graders coloring by #'s as math homework. I have read and seen and listened to repeated reports that the standards of most southern schools (both private and public) are very low in comparison to schools in the northeast.

Luckily I live in NY state where standards have always been pretty high, though not always as high as I'd like to see.

I agree on the testing thing though, which leads me to a question...

Are home schoolers and home school teachers required to follow the standards set byt the "No Child Left Behind" Act?

Are home schoolers and home school teachers required to follow the standards set byt the "No Child Left Behind" Act?
Um... not unless they choose to, or are somehow getting federal money out of certian funds (which I would like to know HOW they're managing that).

Um... not unless they choose to, or are somehow getting federal money out of certian funds (which I would like to know HOW they're managing that).


In that light...how are they being held to the same standards as public and private shcool children?

On the other side of the coin...how is no child being left behind if home school kids are "left behind"?

For the record, I hate this ridiculous initiative that Bush pushed...I'm glad VT and CT are suing the federal government because of it.

In that light...how are they being held to the same standards as public and private shcool children?

We do have state standards that we must meet.

On the other side of the coin...how is no child being left behind if home school kids are "left behind"?

We aren't being left behind. In fact, most of the time, we are far ahead of those in Public School. If the school systems where better, Homeschooling wouldn't be as popular as it is.

For the record, I hate this ridiculous initiative that Bush pushed...I'm glad VT and CT are suing the federal government because of it.

Can't wait to see what comes from this. Heaven forbid that an act places more responsibilities on the states and force them to improve. In alot of cases, it has worked! Heaven forbid that too.

*sighs* I KNOW I'm not going to get to bed now.

In that light...how are they being held to the same standards as public and private shcool children?
Depends upon the state, but most states require home school children to use approved materials and test to the state standards, if they want their diploma to be given by the school district (and count).

We aren't being left behind. In fact, most of the time, we are far ahead of those in Public School. If the school systems where better, Homeschooling wouldn't be as popular as it is.
Still nothing soild that home schooled children are far ahead of their public school peers. And home school can hardly said to be popular. Last stat I heard was maybe 5% of the student population is home schooled, maybe.

Can't wait to see what comes from this. Heaven forbid that an act places more responsibilities on the states and force them to improve. In alot of cases, it has worked! Heaven forbid that too.
Can we have the No Child Left Behind argument elsewhere? I really don't feel like going through that mess again, especially as it seems most folks think that the only way to see if a child is doing well is to give them a scantron and a number 2 (which is ironic as you, a proponet of home schooling because it allowed to to grow in ways not testable, are for this overly tested act).