NationStates Jolt Archive

I've brought Residential Schools up before, but had little interest shown in the topic. Then last night, when I was listening to my aunt recount a particularly horrible story from her time in one, I realised...people don't really know what the heck Residential Schools are! They hear 'school' and think either a regular school, or a boarding school. But they don't really know...so no wonder more people aren't outraged.

So I thought I'd share a bit about them before I pop off to lunch. Hopefully this will spark a little more interest and understanding (especially in Canada) on the subject.

RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS

In the 1920s, the Indian Act was ammended to include mandatory schooling of all aboriginal children. As many communities were widely spread out, Residential schools were set up in central locations. They were run by Protestant or Catholic churches, and were built to be boarding schools. The open intent was to assimilate and integrate aboriginals into Canadian society.

Sounds fairly innocuous (other than the assimilation part) so far, doesn't it?

Now picture this. A law is passed. Few bothered finding individual natives and letting them in on the change. Instead, people from the schools went around to each family, and forcibly took the children. Even after a few generations, when natives knew their children had to be sent to these schools, if they did not arrive in time to drop their children off, the authorities would come and literally drag the children away.

Now you stop and think a moment before I go on. Imagine that you had children. You lived a couple days, sometimes even a couple weeks away from the school. Strangers would come to your house when your child was 5 or 6, and would take your children. You would have no say, no recourse, no chance to homeschool, no power whatsoever to stop this. You would only be allowed to see your children during the summer vacation. For 10 years, that is ALL the contact you would likely have with them.

Parents tried to hide their children. They were invariably found and taken. Some parents couldn't make the trip to pick up their kids in the summer, for whatever reason, and so many children did not see their parents or their family for years.

Siblings of different genders were kept apart from one another. They were beaten for speaking any words that the nuns or priests did not understand. BEATEN for speaking their language...even when many came with no English at all. Imagine someone beating your five year old for speaking the only words he or she knows.

When you entered the school, your clothes were taken and you were issued uniforms. You were deloused with a harsh powder, and your hair, boy or girl, was bowl-cut. You were given a number, instead of a name. You lined up every day according to your number. Sound familiar? Eerily so?

Your name was taken from you. If you were addressed by name instead of number, it was with a new Christian name that was chosen for you.

Children were locked into their dorms at night. The watchmen and women were the only ones who had the keys. Night is when most of the sexual abuse occurred, children to terrified too complain, to tell.

The punishments were harsh, and though harsh punishments were somewhat common for the time, these children had no one close to stick up for them if the punishment greatly exceeded the crime. My aunt wet the bed one night. In a rage, the dorm supervisor rubbed her nose in it like a dog, wrapped her in the wet sheets, and made her sit for a day in the covering. Children caught speaking their language were forced to stand in a corner for hours on end. Ones who tried to run away were given cut rations and locked in closets. The intent of these schools was to erase every aspect of 'Indianess' in these children.

The last residential school closed in Saskatchewan in 1996. More than 75 years, more than seven generations of natives passed through this system. Most had almost no contact with their families for 10 years. Only recently has the government and the churches involved admitted to the abuse, the attempt at assimilation, and made any sort of gesture to apologise. Meanwhile, my people endured years, DECADES of sexual and physical and psychological abuse. Our families were ripped apart, our culture lost, models of good parenting forgotten or never learned as children grew up alone, in the schools.

I don't think the role of Residential Schools in our present reality is understood enough. I don't think the healing has truly begun. We lost ourselves, and no wonder we're struggling, desperate to reclaim what we lost, but unsure of how to even begin. I wonder, all of those people who point the finger at us, and hint that an inherent weakness in our people is to blame...could your people survive such a cultural annihilation intact?

More information on Residential Schools in Canada. (http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-70-692/disasters_tragedies/residential_schools/)

Oh, dear. That brought tears to my eyes. I have never heard about this before. :(

Trust the Government, They're there to help.

Was this just a Canada thing or did they do it in the US as well?

Trust the Government, They're there to help.

AHAHAHAHAH.

But seriously, that sucks. I'd wish that kind of harm on no one. (Save terrorists)

I heard about these schools, I had no idea they were in operation so long! I think we had them here in the States too, but I'm not positive. My American History classes were curiously devoid of many references to the Native Americans after the Revolutionary War.

This article is the most horrible thing I've heard in a long time. I can only imagine how horrible that is...the closest thing I can come to is imagining someone trying to strip me of what little 'Italian-ness' I have, but that doesn't begin to compare.

But it begs the question, what kind of reparation can there be for a crime of this magnitude? Is it even possible? What can be done?

That was sad. I feel for the native north american population. Textook case in why education should be voulentary.

Was this just a Canada thing or did they do it in the US as well?


There were similar in the US but got shut down decades ago(early 1900's IIRC). From the stories I've heard, the treatment was similar.

There were similar in the US but got shut down decades ago(early 1900's IIRC). From the stories I've heard, the treatment was similar.
Well, I’m sure I’ll learn all about it this year. The AP US history teacher at my school is big on making sure we know ALL about our history, the good and the bad. It makes him rather unpopular among the hicks.

I love learning. I love teachers and education. I love schools, and I love what schools can do for people.

This is not what schooling is supposed to be like...

You can't force it on someone, and you can't deny them their individuality...They ruined these kid's childhoods.

Well, I’m sure I’ll learn all about it this year. The AP US history teacher at my school is big on making sure we know ALL about our history, the good and the bad. It makes him rather unpopular among the hicks.

It would make a good paper topic.

That was sad. I feel for the native north american population. Textook case in why education should be voulentary.

The problem is that if education was voluntary it would be the parent's making the choice for their kids, and the kids suffering if they made a bad choice.

But there's no point getting educated while having your culture and identity stolen. I wonder if any of those people actually thought they were doing something good. While these schools are a particularly bad case, this kind of thing happened a lot in very recent history to most indigenous peoples. Here in New Zealand Maori language was banned in schools, and in Australia there was the "lost generation", were huge numbers of Aborigines were taken from there families to be raised in white households.

I believe they showed some of this on "Into the West," in general at least

That was sad. I feel for the native north american population. Textook case in why education should be voulentary.

Shit like this doesn't happen today.

If education is voluntary, how are those that choose not to go going to support themselves in the future?

I'm white, but a huge amount of my dad's friends are First Nations and I live in a mostly First Nations community. I've known about Residential Schools since I was fairly young. People don't realize that they were still in operation until about the mid-1970s.

The thing that pisses me off now is that ... after all the history of assimilation ... all the First Nations people younger than about 30 have embraced Black American culture and completely rejected their own.

Shit like this doesn't happen today.

If education is voluntary, how are those that choose not to go going to support themselves in the future?


Go and ask any person on welfare or living on the streets where they went to school. I'm gonna bet that none of them will say "I homeschooled/unschooled."

Was this just a Canada thing or did they do it in the US as well?
Wow...I kind of got caught up in the Spanish thread and forgot about this one for a bit!

As far as I know, the Residential School system is unique to Canada, in the sense of having boarding schools run by religious denominations. I know in the US that there were similar experiements, but it seems to vary from state to state for some reason. I believe that due to the higher population of immigrants to the US (I'm talking just pre and post Independence) and the 'Pacification' programs in that country, that Residential schools were unecessary as a tool of assimilation.

I heard about these schools, I had no idea they were in operation so long! I think we had them here in the States too, but I'm not positive. My American History classes were curiously devoid of many references to the Native Americans after the Revolutionary War.

This article is the most horrible thing I've heard in a long time. I can only imagine how horrible that is...the closest thing I can come to is imagining someone trying to strip me of what little 'Italian-ness' I have, but that doesn't begin to compare.

But it begs the question, what kind of reparation can there be for a crime of this magnitude? Is it even possible? What can be done?

The government has apologised, as have some of the churches involved in running these schools. Reparations of about $350 million dollars were paid out to a board that allocated the funds to survivors for healing circles and such. Not payouts, but rather funding for therapy and so on. However, the money is all spent, and did not even manage to reach everyone still living who personally went through the system. There are still a lot of people out there who have never faced what was done to them, and much like you may hear stories of ex-slaves who supported slavery, you will hear of natives who are pro-residential school.

Not everyone was sexually or physically abused, but everyone was culturally abused.

I think more programs need to be funded by the government, and the churches responsible. Parenting programs, addiction rehabilitation, therapy, healing circles, community awareness programs. What happened in the Residential Schools is still something that is somewhat unmentionable in our communities. We aren't open about it, and we haven't truly faced it. It's touched us all though, in one way or another, and we need help to deal with the devastating aftermath.

Here in New Zealand Maori language was banned in schools, and in Australia there was the "lost generation", were huge numbers of Aborigines were taken from there families to be raised in white households.
This is the name of many healing programs that were funded by payments from the federal government.

Shit like this doesn't happen today.

If education is voluntary, how are those that choose not to go going to support themselves in the future?
Maybe you missed where the last school finally shut down in 1996? That's within our lifetime. That's the recent, very recent past.

This was never about education. Even the ministers responsible for the schools acknowledged that. It was about solving the "Indian problem". Assimilate us, and there would no longer BE Indians, and no more "Indian problem".

I'm white, but a huge amount of my dad's friends are First Nations and I live in a mostly First Nations community. I've known about Residential Schools since I was fairly young. People don't realize that they were still in operation until about the mid-1970s.

The thing that pisses me off now is that ... after all the history of assimilation ... all the First Nations people younger than about 30 have embraced Black American culture and completely rejected their own.
What do you expect? What speaks to us more? Songs by people who grew up marginalised, in ghettos, or a culture that simply ignores us?

The Residential schools divides our history. The culture that remains is slowly dying of as our elders pass on. Many native youths are not exposed to their traditional culture anymore...the culture they are exposed to is the fallout from the lost generations. It angers me as well, and it scares me, because we managed to last all those decades despite the Residential schools...but too many generations were damaged by them, and the repercussions are like ripples in a pond...slow to start, but closer and closer together until the stone that caused the ripple is gone, and the water has been wiped clean again. So is our history being wiped clean.

<snip>As far as I know, the Residential School system is unique to Canada, in the sense of having boarding schools run by religious denominations. I know in the US that there were similar experiements, but it seems to vary from state to state for some reason. I believe that due to the higher population of immigrants to the US (I'm talking just pre and post Independence) and the 'Pacification' programs in that country, that Residential schools were unecessary as a tool of assimilation.IMO, They were far from "experiments. They were de-reguer until WW-I, and some remained until after WW-II, particularly in the North-Western states (Wyoming, Washington, etc.) They were criminal abuse of "a" culture - right along with the concept of Reservations. I think the reason they were used less in the East and South West (or you hear less about them anyway) is that they tended to go hand-in-hand with the early Reservation system and Religious Prostylization (particularly Catholic) before the Western migrations began in earnest.

They were beaten for speaking any words that the nuns or priests did not understand. BEATEN for speaking their language...


I think this is still going on... :rolleyes:

I think this is still going on... :rolleyes:
The effects of this abuse is still very powerful. You must have a very strange comprehension of history if you think that things that went on until 1996 is in the distant past.

My mom is the youngest of her 14 sibs. She and her brother managed to avoid the residential school because they were sent to a public school. The rest of my aunts and uncles didn't. My grandparents went through the system. Older cousins of mine also did. I'm 27. That means I was born in 1977. If we had been living in a more isolated area, residential school would have been my lot as well. I don't think I would have survived it.

It's finally stopped. That doesn't mean it's over.

And by the way. We don't get beaten for speaking our language anymore. I wonder if it has to do with the fact that hardly any of us have our language as our mother tongue. The residential schools came very close to fulfilling their purpose...annihilating our culture. Does that make you proud?

<snip> I'm 27. That means I was born in 1977. <snip>
CRAP! I'm 10 years older than you too? :headbang:

It's disgracefull that such things happened in Canada and the USA. Our two nations pride ourselves on being better than this. It's like the actions of some repressive and barbaric third world hellhole, not at all what one should expect from two civilized nations.

Sinuhue, I'm sorry that this sort of thing was done to your people, but I thank you for reminding us of it. Only by being aware of the attrocities of our past can we make sure we don't repeat them.

It seems kind of hypocritical for two of the nations most likely to condemn others for human rights violations to have committed outright genocide. However that is exactly what happened between the early colonial period and today. This past summer I worked alongside a man from Turkey who explained that the Armenian Genocide was not something that his country had perpetuated in a vacuum. It is agonizing to note that my own country the United States along with its neighbor to the north engaged in one of the most successful genocides in human history without the consequences of the Nazis mass murder of Jews, Gypsies, and other groups that their evil ideology despised. Then again the methods were very different cultures were destroyed and millions of people were killed but without gas chambers or as far as I am aware mass graves. I do not believe that we would do such a thing today but none the less it remains every persons duty to recognize the guilt of the past and in doing so avoid permitting such evils to occur in the future.

I just read this and it made me sad. I truly am sorry for the horrible things that have been done to your people. :(

It seems kind of hypocritical for two of the nations most likely to condemn others for human rights violations to have committed outright genocide. However that is exactly what happened between the early colonial period and today. This past summer I worked alongside a man from Turkey who explained that the Armenian Genocide was not something that his country had perpetuated in a vacuum. It is agonizing to note that my own country the United States along with its neighbor to the north engaged in one of the most successful genocides in human history without the consequences of the Nazis mass murder of Jews, Gypsies, and other groups that their evil ideology despised. Then again the methods were very different cultures were destroyed and millions of people were killed but without gas chambers or as far as I am aware mass graves. I do not believe that we would do such a thing today but none the less it remains every persons duty to recognize the guilt of the past and in doing so avoid permitting such evils to occur in the future.Global Cultures were different too. As Nations, we have largely grown out of the Genocidal practices that were the Global Standard in relating to indiginous cultures from 10,000 BCE to the Edwardian era. Had Hitler arrived on the scene in the 1600s, I don't think anyone would have cared about the Shoah as policy. Ditto Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot. It is the post WW-I "Modern Era" that has changed this, not any innate moral superiority of County A or Country B.

Global Cultures were different too. As Nations, we have largely grown out of the Genocidal practices that were the Global Standard in relating to indiginous cultures from 10,000 BCE to the Edwardian era. Had Hitler arrived on the scene in the 1600s, I don't think anyone would have cared about the Shoah as policy. Ditto Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot. It is the post WW-I "Modern Era" that has changed this, not any innate moral superiority of County A or Country B.
I agree with you here Syniks. The Shoah was a much more effecient and organised pogrom, but it was by no means the first time Jews had been targeted for extermination.

The kind of barbaric mass killings that were once commonplace are not as easily hidden in these days of internationalism. Ivan the terrible put an entire city to the sword, men, women and children. No outcry was raised when the Armenians were massacred. In fact, Hitler noted that very fact, and used it to assure those within his party who feared retaliation for the planned extermination of the Jews.

Nonetheless, our countries need to come to grips with the reality of past policies. It has only been within my lifetime that apologies were finally made to the Japanese that were put into internment camps during the Second World War in Canada. German POWs built much of the infrastructure around Lethbridge, Alberta...slave labour that has yet to be compensated for. The Royal Mounted Canadian Police used to spy on labour leaders, and carried out union-busting operations, sometimes with deadly results. My people have spilt their blood and their culture into the earth in order for this country to exist. These things are finally being admitted to, in our government, in our schools. We should not hide our faces from the shameful things we have done. We can not improve if we convince ourselves we have never done wrong. The first step is acknowledgement. After that, the healing journey must involve us all, and money alone is not enough to make ALL our spirits complete again.

The same thing happened in Australia, only the children were taken away to be trained as servants for white families.


For a while being aborigional in australia was a crime punishable by death. Then it was downgraded to having your children taken away from you. Nowdays I believe it is just a misdemenor to be dark skinned in a built up area..

<snip>
Nonetheless, our countries need to come to grips with the reality of past policies. It has only been within my lifetime that apologies were finally made to the Japanese that were put into internment camps during the Second World War in Canada. German POWs built much of the infrastructure around Lethbridge, Alberta...slave labour that has yet to be compensated for. The Royal Mounted Canadian Police used to spy on labour leaders, and carried out union-busting operations, sometimes with deadly results. My people have spilt their blood and their culture into the earth in order for this country to exist. These things are finally being admitted to, in our government, in our schools. We should not hide our faces from the shameful things we have done. We can not improve if we convince ourselves we have never done wrong. The first step is acknowledgement. After that, the healing journey must involve us all, and money alone is not enough to make ALL our spirits complete again.. IMO "coming to grips with" means, and should mean, nothing more than determining not to do the same things our ancestors/predecessors did. Note I did not say "do the same things again", because neither "we", nor the current government(s) did those things.

The Present is not responsible for the past, no matter how much the present was impacted by it. The Present can only make itself responsible for the Future. Sure, that includes being sure we know about the Past, including all the raw and dirty bits, but we damn sure have no cause to feel guilty for it, just to make damn sure it doesn't happen again.

<snip>
Um... sorry? I don't know how you interpreted what I said. I was simply making a comment that due to miscomunitcations and the...lack of wanting to go through the processes necessary to translate a different language people form wrong conclusions...and, er 'bad things' happen O.o...wtf?

. IMO "coming to grips with" means, and should mean, nothing more than determining not to do the same things our ancestors/predecessors did. Note I did not say "do the same things again", because neither "we", nor the current government(s) did those things.

The Present is not responsible for the past, no matter how much the present was impacted by it. The Present can only make itself responsible for the Future. Sure, that includes being sure we know about the Past, including all the raw and dirty bits, but we damn sure have no cause to feel guilty for it, just to make damn sure it doesn't happen again.
Sorry, but I disagree with you on this one. The present is not responsible for the past? So I am not responsible for things I did yesterday? When does the PAST begin?

Many of the people who sexually and physically abused natives in these schools are still alive. As are the survivors of this abuse. Many of the government officials who continued this terrible system are still alive...some of them still in positions of power. The victims of Residentials schools are not long dead and buried. Or are we going to wait until they are? Then say..."Sorry, that's in the past. I suppose we should have dealt with it before, but it's too late now...move along people."

Um... sorry? I don't know how you interpreted what I said. I was simply making a comment that due to miscomunitcations and the...lack of wanting to go through the processes necessary to translate a different language people form wrong conclusions...and, er 'bad things' happen O.o...wtf?
You said you thought this sort of thing was still going on...but then you included a :rolleyes: which usually indicates you are being sarcastic. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you...perhaps you could clarify what you meant?

Good thing crap like "residential schools" is illegal in Germany. "Raising the children is the natural right of the parents" is anchored in our constitution and that right can only be taken away in cases of abuse or neglect.

. IMO "coming to grips with" means, and should mean, nothing more than determining not to do the same things our ancestors/predecessors did. Note I did not say "do the same things again", because neither "we", nor the current government(s) did those things.

The Present is not responsible for the past, no matter how much the present was impacted by it. The Present can only make itself responsible for the Future. Sure, that includes being sure we know about the Past, including all the raw and dirty bits, but we damn sure have no cause to feel guilty for it, just to make damn sure it doesn't happen again.
Feeling guilty about it is one of the best ways of making sure it doesn't happen again. That's how things work in Germany. If they didn't, we'd have a new NSDAP marching out of parliament today.
Present can only be responsible for the future, and making ammends for the past is part of that.

Sorry, but I disagree with you on this one. The present is not responsible for the past? So I am not responsible for things I did yesterday? When does the PAST begin?

Many of the people who sexually and physically abused natives in these schools are still alive. As are the survivors of this abuse. Many of the government officials who continued this terrible system are still alive...some of them still in positions of power. The victims of Residentials schools are not long dead and buried. Or are we going to wait until they are? Then say..."Sorry, that's in the past. I suppose we should have dealt with it before, but it's too late now...move along people."The "past" for an action begins after restitution for that action or at the death of the actor.
Living people are responsible for their actions. I suppose you could find one or two permenant government employees (elected or otherwise) who bear some personal responsibility for some past government evils, but not many and certainly not for most of the most henious that occured 50+ years ago.

Absolutely Living people should be held liable for the results of their actions, but they should not be held liable or "communally responsible" for actions over which they had no control.

And how does one "deal with" things that happened in the generational past anyway? Certainly we should do things to right specific wrongs, whether it be to living individuals or groups, but the notion that there can be some sort of time-cumulative redress for actions taken against the Dead is pernicious. Should that ever become the "rule" there will be no end to it because every person everywhere can show some sort of historical abuse to their "generational person". If I sue you for an infinite sum, and you sue me for an infinite sum why sue at all? It only makes the Lawyers and political hacks fat and happy.

Feeling guilty about it is one of the best ways of making sure it doesn't happen again. That's how things work in Germany. If they didn't, we'd have a new NSDAP marching out of parliament today.
Present can only be responsible for the future, and making ammends for the past is part of that.
I can feel appalled and sickened without feeling guilty. I suggest that if it is only "guilt" that keeps the NSDAP at bay, rather than moral indignation, there are some serious issues still lingering in the "German Consiousness".

Syniks

This is what I expect in terms of the Residential School issue:

1. Acknowledgement of guilt.
- Done. Both the government and the churches involved have apologised.

2. Those people still living that committed the crimes of sexual abuse (which were criminal acts even back then) be tried for those crimes.
- Done. In fact, individual churches have themselves taken the blame for persons acting as representatives of that church. This has also been the case with sexual abuse not related to Residential Schools, perpetrated by representatives of other churches.

3. Restitution be made to the survivors of Residential Schools, the onus being on the government that instituted such policies in the first place.

Here is the sticky one. Some monies were granted to fund healing circles for survivors of the Residential schools. However, I don't think this goes far enough, and the money was truly a pittance that did not begin to cover basic therapy for all those living who directly suffered.

We need to look at the real impact of Residential Schools, and determine how best to offset the damage. Why? Because in order to have a healthy society, we need healthy citizens, both physically and mentally. It makes more sense to deal with this now, than wait for the effects to pile up to the point where my people are completely unable to function normally. So:

1. Parenting. Generations of natives need to learn parenting skills, because these skills were not modeled for them in the Schools. Community parenting programs are needed.

2. Addiction. Many turn to alcohol and drugs to deal with the lasting pain of abuse. Therapy and addiction counseling is needed. So far, this has been the focus, and many programs ARE in place. Many bands themselves fund these programs, and that's fine with me. Continued support of these programs is essential.

3. Culture. Barriers to reclaiming our culture must be removed. Some steps have been taken to do this. Schools were mandated for each reserve, and are under the domain of the Federal, not the provincial or territorial government. Partnerships for funding development of native language and culture curriculum have been put in place, where bands, and the governments share funds and expertise to design learning materials that meet our needs. Urban centers with significant native populations have set up charter schools, funded through the public system that offer native-based cultural and language content. (much as schools for Muslims, Chinese, Polish, Spanish or whatever large cultural group are allowed. The same curriculum, with additions to meet cultural needs)

However, so much has been lost, it seems impossible at times that we can reclaim it all. Support RIGHT NOW is needed to record and save cultural information that is slowly being lost as our elders die. Some programs are in place to do this...recording interviews, stories, language expertise, and so on. We can not wait for this...if we do, it will be too late. More intensive preservation is needed. It's not a need that will always be there, it's something that must be addressed immediately. Modern technology allows us to maintain aspects of our elder's wisdom that otherwise would be lost.

4. Inclusion. We don't want to be on the fringes. We want to integrate, but not at the cost of losing our identities even further. Native history is only now being integrated into the curriculum of schools. It's a positive step. Making people aware of the interactions between aboriginals and non-aboriginals is key. It is especially important as Canada becomes more urban, and less and less people have any real contact with Reservation natives. If people are more familiar with our culture, it is more likely that we will preserve it in the wider Canadian sphere...because we will not feel the need to hide it in shame. THAT is not going to take government-created laws...it's going to take education and exposure.

5. Understanding. Above all, we want people to learn about us, and understand the complexity of the issues we face. Why? We are the original people. We have had a great impact on the formation of this nation, even though that impact is often left out of the creation story of Canada. First Nations, Métis and Inuit people have done a lot for this country, and for it's cultural identity, but so few Canadians could tell you what impact we've had. We have a rich culture, even as disconnected as it sometimes has become. We don't want to be at perpetual war with other Canadians. In my mind, education that includes us is important, but also more exposure through the media. We now have an Aboriginal Peoples Television Network. It's not a government-mandated channel, it's simply a new way for us to reach out. Now we need you to reach out in return.

It's not all about government solutions. It's about societal involvement as well.

I can feel appalled and sickened without feeling guilty. I suggest that if it is only "guilt" that keeps the NSDAP at bay, rather than moral indignation, there are some serious issues still lingering in the "German Consiousness".It's not the only thing, but it is the basis for moral indignation. The only people that would willingly flaunt highly offensive symbols in Germany are those that find the ideals acceptable. I've noticed plenty of non-Germans use these symbols, and some of them for role-playing purposes. We don't have that over here, because we feel guilty about it what happened, responsible for what happened, and willing to stop it from happening again. And that entails more than just banning symbols, it deals with fighting the unwillingness to accept that guilt.

There will always be serious issues lingering in the "German Consciousness". They linger in every country, culture, and people. It's important to recognize that it does and that one has more responsibility than just saying that they won't let it happen again. Accepting the responsibility for the past is part of never letting it happen again.

My point is, feeling appalled and sickened doesn't do much good against a website of a neo-nazi party, designed to gloss over things like that. Sometimes, appalled and sickened just isn't enough.

Syniks

This is what I expect in terms of the Residential School issue:

1. Acknowledgement of guilt.
- Done. Both the government and the churches involved have apologised.

2. Those people still living that committed the crimes of sexual abuse (which were criminal acts even back then) be tried for those crimes.
- Done. In fact, individual churches have themselves taken the blame for persons acting as representatives of that church. This has also been the case with sexual abuse not related to Residential Schools, perpetrated by representatives of other churches.

3. Restitution be made to the survivors of Residential Schools, the onus being on the government that instituted such policies in the first place.

Here is the sticky one. Some monies were granted to fund healing circles for survivors of the Residential schools. However, I don't think this goes far enough, and the money was truly a pittance that did not begin to cover basic therapy for all those living who directly suffered.

We need to look at the real impact of Residential Schools, and determine how best to offset the damage. Why? Because in order to have a healthy society, we need healthy citizens, both physically and mentally. It makes more sense to deal with this now, than wait for the effects to pile up to the point where my people are completely unable to function normally. So:

1. Parenting. Generations of natives need to learn parenting skills, because these skills were not modeled for them in the Schools. Community parenting programs are needed.

2. Addiction. Many turn to alcohol and drugs to deal with the lasting pain of abuse. Therapy and addiction counseling is needed. So far, this has been the focus, and many programs ARE in place. Many bands themselves fund these programs, and that's fine with me. Continued support of these programs is essential.

3. Culture. Barriers to reclaiming our culture must be removed. Some steps have been taken to do this. Schools were mandated for each reserve, and are under the domain of the Federal, not the provincial or territorial government. Partnerships for funding development of native language and culture curriculum have been put in place, where bands, and the governments share funds and expertise to design learning materials that meet our needs. Urban centers with significant native populations have set up charter schools, funded through the public system that offer native-based cultural and language content. (much as schools for Muslims, Chinese, Polish, Spanish or whatever large cultural group are allowed. The same curriculum, with additions to meet cultural needs)

However, so much has been lost, it seems impossible at times that we can reclaim it all. Support RIGHT NOW is needed to record and save cultural information that is slowly being lost as our elders die. Some programs are in place to do this...recording interviews, stories, language expertise, and so on. We can not wait for this...if we do, it will be too late. More intensive preservation is needed. It's not a need that will always be there, it's something that must be addressed immediately. Modern technology allows us to maintain aspects of our elder's wisdom that otherwise would be lost.

4. Inclusion. We don't want to be on the fringes. We want to integrate, but not at the cost of losing our identities even further. Native history is only now being integrated into the curriculum of schools. It's a positive step. Making people aware of the interactions between aboriginals and non-aboriginals is key. It is especially important as Canada becomes more urban, and less and less people have any real contact with Reservation natives. If people are more familiar with our culture, it is more likely that we will preserve it in the wider Canadian sphere...because we will not feel the need to hide it in shame. THAT is not going to take government-created laws...it's going to take education and exposure.

5. Understanding. Above all, we want people to learn about us, and understand the complexity of the issues we face. Why? We are the original people. We have had a great impact on the formation of this nation, even though that impact is often left out of the creation story of Canada. First Nations, Métis and Inuit people have done a lot for this country, and for it's cultural identity, but so few Canadians could tell you what impact we've had. We have a rich culture, even as disconnected as it sometimes has become. We don't want to be at perpetual war with other Canadians. In my mind, education that includes us is important, but also more exposure through the media. We now have an Aboriginal Peoples Television Network. It's not a government-mandated channel, it's simply a new way for us to reach out. Now we need you to reach out in return.

It's not all about government solutions. It's about societal involvement as well.
I wish you would take over the US "reperations" crowd. Those points are immenantly sensible, especially the last two. (edit - It doesn't have...)I don't the level of "guilt by association" that is crammed down the throats of Anglo USians by the (usually Anglo USians) pushing for "reparations" here. (IMO it is a thinly disguised attack on US business with the intent of wresting financial control - i.e. a hostile takeover by other means - rather than actual concern for the victims - alive, generational, or imagined). I'm not against reaching out, I'm against people reaching IN (to my pocket). Given your description, I think Canada is doing things right.

<snip>
My point is, feeling appalled and sickened doesn't do much good against a website of a neo-nazi party, designed to gloss over things like that. Sometimes, appalled and sickened just isn't enough.
It was enough for us (plus a bit of stupidity on their part) to eventually drive Richard Butler and his noxious "Aryan Nations" compound into bankruptcy and out of Hayden Lake (Idaho).

How far back does the "guilt" go? I suppose if I was "Christian" (or Jewish) enough, I could cop to "Original Sin", but I'm not, so I won't - and I won't for anything I did not have any hand (or vote) in.

The same thing happened in Australia, only the children were taken away to be trained as servants for white families.


For a while being aborigional in australia was a crime punishable by death. Then it was downgraded to having your children taken away from you. Nowdays I believe it is just a misdemenor to be dark skinned in a built up area..
Wasn't it just at the Olympics held in Australia that the government said "Sorry"? I remember it being a pretty monumental thing that an apology was given...though I'm not sure if it was followed up on with any action?

It was enough for us (plus a bit of stupidity on their part) to eventually drive Richard Butler and his noxious "Aryan Nations" compound into bankruptcy and out of Hayden Lake (Idaho).

How far back does the "guilt" go? I suppose if I was "Christian" (or Jewish) enough, I could cop to "Original Sin", but I'm not, so I won't - and I won't for anything I did not have any hand (or vote) in.Don't take it to extremes. A good measure of guilt is quite healthy ;)
Too many people take it too far in the states, which discredits the whole idea of feeling guilty...
As for the Germans, we have documented proof of what we as a people allowed to happen. It doesn't help much to show how much better you are if things are continuously allowed to happen.
Let's see if I can explain the guilt thing properly: Are you sorry for what has happened? That is a form of guilt. You didn't do it, but you still feel it was wrong.

Sorry, but I disagree with you on this one. The present is not responsible for the past? So I am not responsible for things I did yesterday? When does the PAST begin?

Many of the people who sexually and physically abused natives in these schools are still alive. As are the survivors of this abuse. Many of the government officials who continued this terrible system are still alive...some of them still in positions of power. The victims of Residentials schools are not long dead and buried. Or are we going to wait until they are? Then say..."Sorry, that's in the past. I suppose we should have dealt with it before, but it's too late now...move along people."
I agree. There's a great quote by someone, "injustice is easy to bear; what stings is justice." I can't imagine how we as a nation can ever do to set things right again. Perhaps we can't. But that doesn't mean our government, the same government that did these horrible things, is not responsible.

I agree. There's a great quote by someone, "injustice is easy to bear; what stings is justice." I can't imagine how we as a nation can ever do to set things right again. Perhaps we can't. But that doesn't mean our government, the same government that did these horrible things, is not responsible.
But (in most cases) it is no longer the same government. That's the problem.

It's like saying; "Your older brother was a Chav, so we're sending YOU to reform school."

How can that be justice?

Wasn't it just at the Olympics held in Australia that the government said "Sorry"? I remember it being a pretty monumental thing that an apology was given...though I'm not sure if it was followed up on with any action?

No;

Unfortunately, the current government refuses to say "sorry" to the indigenous people, fearing backlash and massive lawsuits coming their way if they admit responsibility.

Certain sections of the community however, do so as a political statement. The "Sorry" was more than likely some celebrity using the limelight of performing at the opening ceremony to state such a viewpoint. Around that time, the opposition party might have declared their intention to say sorry as well. Maybe that was it.

You said you thought this sort of thing was still going on...but then you included a :rolleyes: which usually indicates you are being sarcastic. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you...perhaps you could clarify what you meant?
Ah, no I was rolling my eyes at people who are ignorant and don't take the time to try to understand different languages/cultures when they are confronted with them.

And the sort of thing going on I was reffering to specifically was language/cultural bariers.

But (in most cases) it is no longer the same government. That's the problem.

It's like saying; "Your older brother was a Chav, so we're sending YOU to reform school."

How can that be justice?
Look at it this way.

Governments act on behalf of the people. When a government signs a treaty or a trade agreement, for example, future generations and future governments are still bound by those agreements. You can not look at individuals within the government and say, "well, this minister signed that agreement, but since there is a new minister now, the agreement is invalid". If you can not do this, you should not be able to get away from making right past wrongs. Within reason of course.

In this case, there are still survivors of Residential Schools who need counseling. As well, we have a situation where those who went through the system never learned parenting skills, and in raising their own children, (or more commonly passing those children off to granparents or aunts) did some damage to other generations because of their lack. That is a secondary, ripple effect that should also be accounted for in terms of parenting programs and addictions counseling.

Hey Sin,
How ya been?

The same thing has happened to the Aborigines in Australia - up to 1979, I think. A hundred thousand children stolen ("Stolen Generation"), and the government has not yet said "sorry"!!! ... :headbang: :mad: :headbang: :gundge:



EDIT: I don't apologize for repeating what others have already said in this thread. Some things HAVE to be repeated.

Look at it this way.

Governments act on behalf of the people. When a government signs a treaty or a trade agreement, for example, future generations and future governments are still bound by those agreements. You can not look at individuals within the government and say, "well, this minister signed that agreement, but since there is a new minister now, the agreement is invalid". If you can not do this, you should not be able to get away from making right past wrongs. Within reason of course.

In this case, there are still survivors of Residential Schools who need counseling. As well, we have a situation where those who went through the system never learned parenting skills, and in raising their own children, (or more commonly passing those children off to granparents or aunts) did some damage to other generations because of their lack. That is a secondary, ripple effect that should also be accounted for in terms of parenting programs and addictions counseling.I agree 100% with the bold. (And, in general, your description of the Canadian version of reparations).

I'm just pointing out how people down here both see & push the reparations issue - doing stupid crap like forcing long-standing corporations to prove that they did not somehow profit over a hundred years ago from the slave trade. (OMG! Feduciary Insurance Inc. Insured "Owners" against loss of slaves! Barbaric! They OWE "us" (an unspecified but near bankrupting amount) for that dammit! :rolleyes: )

Wasn't it just at the Olympics held in Australia that the government said "Sorry"? I remember it being a pretty monumental thing that an apology was given...though I'm not sure if it was followed up on with any action?


I'm not entirely sure. Last I heard they hadn't properly apologised, but they might have.

The Residential schools divides our history. The culture that remains is slowly dying of as our elders pass on. Many native youths are not exposed to their traditional culture anymore...the culture they are exposed to is the fallout from the lost generations. It angers me as well, and it scares me, because we managed to last all those decades despite the Residential schools...but too many generations were damaged by them, and the repercussions are like ripples in a pond...slow to start, but closer and closer together until the stone that caused the ripple is gone, and the water has been wiped clean again. So is our history being wiped clean.
What has happened is happened. It cannot be taken back. You can only claim today.

Many first nation peoples are engaged in bringing about a renassaince (sp?). Their own resources are often limited and a good way of increasing their abililty to reappropriate their culture and attempt to reclaim autonomy, is through reaching out to other first nation peoples. I understand that first nation American peoples are one of the peoples who are forming networks with first nation peoples who have gone through similar experiances. By sharing experiances and resources, successes and setbacks, first nation peoples are strengthening their own resolve while increasing their ability to be effective in reclaiming their cultures and their autonomy.

Have first nation Americans succeeded (or attempted to) set up language immersion schools? This is a very powerful way to breath life back into the language and culture of one's ancestors. Unfortunately time is probably limited for many first nation peoples; if the language is not passed on now, it might never be.

Have first nation Americans succeeded (or attempted to) set up language immersion schools? This is a very powerful way to breath life back into the language and culture of one's ancestors. Unfortunately time is probably limited for many first nation peoples; if the language is not passed on now, it might never be.
Native languages are taught now in reservation schools, and even at outreach centres in urban areas. As well, where the population warrants, charter schools that integrate aboriginal curriculum (yes, various groups have actually written a curriculum that can fit into regular programs of study) also offer native languages. As well, technology is being used in order to capture language for future generations so that we don't loose too much. Interviews, video lessons, digital recordings, lexicons, grammars, dictionaries...and more and more, books and movies done in aboriginal languages.

The stronger linguistic groups still thrive. Cree is very strong, as are the various Inuit dialects. However, smaller tribes have all bust lost their language. It is a sad thing...but at the very least, we can be fairly sure that ALL our languages are no longer marked for extinction. Unfortunately, the number of people with their aboriginal language as their mother tongue will probably continue to decline. I'm not sure how we could reverse that other than to offer ALL subjects in the aboriginal language, rather than second language classes. The problem with this is the potential for further exclusion...I would prefer to see a bilingual education, with aboriginal languages and English or French, blended throughout. This does seem to be where we are going, but it will take a lot more time and development.

Wasn't it just at the Olympics held in Australia that the government said "Sorry"? I remember it being a pretty monumental thing that an apology was given...though I'm not sure if it was followed up on with any action?

This was most likely a joke featured on the TV show 'The Games', which was a (very funny) mockumentary about the organising commitee of the 2000 Olympics.

From here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Games_%28Australian_TV%29) ...

In one celebrated appearance, the actor John Howard appeared on a video message intended for overseas release and read an apology to Aboriginal people for crimes committed against them by the Australian government. In the episode in question, an Aboriginal group threatened to disrupt the Games unless they were given a public apology by the actor's namesake, the Prime Minister of Australia. The message was accompanied by John Clarke saying "that's not the Prime Minister," to which Gina Riley replied, "he never said he was. He said he was John Howard." The confusion between the two men has become a frequent joke in Australia, exploited by the politically liberal actor.

We had some residential schools here in Alaska. If memory serves, they closed them down in the 1970's. The treatment was similar to what you described, but I don't think that the churches were involved here, just the government.

Unfortunately, the number of people with their aboriginal language as their mother tongue will probably continue to decline. I'm not sure how we could reverse that other than to offer ALL subjects in the aboriginal language, rather than second language classes. The problem with this is the potential for further exclusion...I would prefer to see a bilingual education, with aboriginal languages and English or French, blended throughout. This does seem to be where we are going, but it will take a lot more time and development.
We have total maori language immersion schools, I think there is a great deal less variation (ie dialect differences) though, so that probably simplifies things. It would definately be good to have English, French, and the local first nation language taught in early schooling in Canada. The more languages you know, the easier more languages are to learn.

Children that have been to Maori language immersion schools usually tend to be quite confident, and to be excellent speakers in both Maori and English.

My nation's founding document is a Treaty with the first nation people (Treaty of Waitangi), and it has been interpreted to mean that the Maori people have a right to expect that their language will be nurtured and kept alive. I'd like to think that eventually everyone born and schooled in New Zealand will be bi-lingual (English and Maori), but that is a long way off, if ever happens at all.

My nation's founding document is a Treaty with the first nation people (Treaty of Waitangi), and it has been interpreted to mean that the Maori people have a right to expect that their language will be nurtured and kept alive. I'd like to think that eventually everyone born and schooled in New Zealand will be bi-lingual (English and Maori), but that is a long way off, if ever happens at all.
It'll never happen here...we aren't even all bilingual in our two official languages:(. Plus, the linguistic diversity in Canada would never allow for total fluency in just one native language. But plenty of kids in the Territories learn a native language if they don't want French, so the North is kind of the trail blazer in this regard.

It'll never happen here...we aren't even all bilingual in our two official languages:(. Plus, the linguistic diversity in Canada would never allow for total fluency in just one native language. But plenty of kids in the Territories learn a native language if they don't want French, so the North is kind of the trail blazer in this regard.
In New Zealand Maori is an official language (although obviously it has been standardised over the years since there are dialect difference, however unlike in Canada the dialect differences are small enough that people accustomed to different Maori dialects can still communicate with each other).

The Maori people apparently are considered first nation 'pioneers' internationally because they have met some success in pressing their claims (obviously this is an ongoing effort). There are Maori who remember being beaten in school for speaking their own tongue (rather than English); now there is a dedicated Maori tv station.

Still the 'race card' is often bought into play by various politicians trying to win a quick few votes. One guy (leader of the main opposition party) is stirring up trouble by claiming he will get rid of Maori seats in the Parliament if elected. Its kind of scary, but the reality is the hard-won progress of Maori people (and the nation as community and social group) could be turned back decades in one election! :headbang: