NationStates Jolt Archive

Ever since Cindy Sheehan started protesting, there have been tons of protesters protesting her protest. I find it quite amazing how this has gone on and on and on and has gotten wayyyyyyy out of proportion.

How can one lone woman anger so many people, when there are plenty of other things to be angry at--like Bill O'Reilly? No matter your views, I say you must give this woman credit for creating all this uncalled for controversy.

We need more people like Cindy here in America.

"Running scared" is the phrase I'd use.

I'm glad to see that the First Amendment is being used well and is actually being appreciated. Unlike the dozens of the protests prior to the Iraqi War in which millions protested the invasion.

Ever since Cindy Sheehan started protesting, there have been tons of protesters protesting her protest. I find it quite amazing how this has gone on and on and on and has gotten wayyyyyyy out of proportion.

How can one lone woman anger so many people, when there are plenty of other things to be angry at--like Bill O'Reilly? No matter your views, I say you must give this woman credit for creating all this uncalled for controversy.

We need more people like Cindy here in America.
We need far fewer people like Cindy Sheehan here in America. All her dishonoring of her own son has accomplished is to kick-start the same anti-American and ultimately anti-Soldier bullshit to which the wonderful protestors resorted during Vietnam. What wonderful people they were, so in love with "peace," so compassionate and humble. Yeah. Right. :rolleyes:

This is the start of the same Goddamned bullshit, Cindy Sheehan and her fellow-travellers saying things like "This Country isn't worth dying for." And you can play with allegations about "word order" and "context" and "intent" all you want to ... that is in FACT what she said!

This approach to conflict "resolution" is a prescription for civil war in this Country. There are millions of veterans out here who remember how they and their brothers were reviled by the goddamned asshat "protestors," and we will not allow that to happen again ... period!

"Running scared" is the phrase I'd use.
You wish.

We need far fewer people like Cindy Sheehan here in America. All her dishonoring of her own son has accomplished is to kick-start the same anti-American and ultimately anti-Soldier bullshit to which the wonderful protestors resorted during Vietnam. What wonderful people they were, so in love with "peace," so compassionate and humble. Yeah. Right. :rolleyes:

This is the start of the same Goddamned bullshit, Cindy Sheehan and her fellow-travellers saying things like "This Country isn't worth dying for." And you can play with allegations about "word order" and "context" and "intent" all you want to ... that is in FACT what she said!

This approach to conflict "resolution" is a prescription for civil war in this Country. There are millions of veterans out here who remember how they and their brothers were reviled by the goddamned asshat "protestors," and we will not allow that to happen again ... period!
So, advocating armed rebellion against the state in order to abridge the first amendment? Gee wiz Eutrusca, that's murder, treason, conspiracy to commit murder and treason, and attempting to abridge the right to free speech, all in one post. That has to be a new record.

So, advocating armed rebellion against the state in order to abridge the first amendment? Gee wiz Eutrusca, that's murder, treason, conspiracy to commit murder and treason, and attempting to abridge the right to free speech, all in one post. That has to be a new record.
Does it bother you, little man? Then don't read it. Simple enough for even a protestor to understand. :D

We need far fewer people like Cindy Sheehan here in America. All her dishonoring of her own son has accomplished is to kick-start the same anti-American and ultimately anti-Soldier bullshit to which the wonderful protestors resorted during Vietnam. What wonderful people they were, so in love with "peace," so compassionate and humble. Yeah. Right. :rolleyes:

This is the start of the same Goddamned bullshit, Cindy Sheehan and her fellow-travellers saying things like "This Country isn't worth dying for." And you can play with allegations about "word order" and "context" and "intent" all you want to ... that is in FACT what she said!

This approach to conflict "resolution" is a prescription for civil war in this Country. There are millions of veterans out here who remember how they and their brothers were reviled by the goddamned asshat "protestors," and we will not allow that to happen again ... period!Nothing like hearing only one side to the argument and killing the side you don't like!

If you like quotes so much, try this one on for size:
"It was amazing I won. I was running against peace and prosperity and incumbency."
-- GWB, Shockingly candid assessment of what he didn't bring to the table in the 2000 election made to Swedish Prime Minister Goran Persson, Gothenberg, Sweden, Jun. 14, 2001

:) This is the start of the same Goddamned bullshit, Cindy Sheehan and her fellow-travellers saying things like "This Country isn't worth dying for." And you can play with allegations about "word order" and "context" and "intent" all you want to ... that is in FACT what she said!


I see the usual right wing tactic of repeating a lie often enough until people actually just assume it must be true since they have heard it so often. Maybe if you took your head out of your ass for a few seconds and used the few remaining working brain cells you have left you might have a chance to comprehend that Ms Sheehan was not referring to the US when she was made the comment that,"This Country isn't worth dying for." Most people with a brain are able to see that she meant Iraq, but I guess therein lies the problem doesn't it? Lemmings like you do not have brains that work. :)

I'll join ya, Eutrusca. :sniper:

Personally, I think we need a revolution here... for the good of America.

No, really, I mean, it's insane. We have this crazy 50/50 divide and we're trying to fight a war against half the world without even having our own citizens united behind the cause.

I would like to see the income tax amendment repealed, the establishment of a national sales tax on non-vital goods instead, a balanced budget act, just take out most welfare/social services programmes for people that are physically capable of working (note that I do support government aid for people who are legitimately disabled/and/or/mentally retarded), strip the ability of the government to levy excessive taxes and waste tax money on "pork" projects, give civilians the rights to have any firearms/explosives that they want, restrict the use of eminent domain nationwide to only allow the government to seize property to build hospitals/public schools/highways, etc., see Bush's plan for private accounts instead of Social Security passed, strengthen the military, begin building nuclear power plants and improving our weapons capabilities, secularise things beyond belief of most people that would agree with what I've said so far (gay marriage, abolishment of blue laws, etc.), legalise recreational drugs/smoking in all places, let capitalism reign free of pointless restrictions, make prostitution and pornography legal, let people have fatty foods and stuff again, give the power back to the people and take most of it away from Washington, deregulate the airwaves, privatise the postal service like they are doing in Japan, etc. etc. etc.

Oh, and the cause I have been the most vocal about: I despise the United Nations. I'd probably have throw a party if a terrorist or something blew up their HQ tomorrow. Maybe it's illegal to say that. I don't know. I consider myself liberated of such pointless laws. I exercise my freedom of speech.

<snip>
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/worker_lib.jpg

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/THANK_LIB_1.jpg

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/imagine.jpg

Liberals are sooooo bad for society :rolleyes:

1) 40-hour work-week? Heh, try 80 around here. But I'm not complaining. I like money.

2) Child labour laws are unenforceable to some degree, and anyway, I wanted money when I was a kid so I thought they were dumb. I still think they're dumb, since I can't work as many hours as I want to.

3) Unions suck.

4) If you're dumb, why should we care if you're safe or not?

5) Healthcare adds to the costs.

Oops, did I just say all that 'out loud'? I think I did. :D

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/worker_lib.jpg

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/THANK_LIB_1.jpg

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/imagine.jpg

Liberals are sooooo bad for society :rolleyes:
Those posters bear a remarkable resemblance to the old Communist Party USSR posters. The only thing missing is the hammer and sickle.

Those posters bear a remarkable resemblance to the old Communist Party USSR posters. The only thing missing is the hammer and sickle.

Isn't it creepy?

Unions were a great thing when people were still dying in the workplace and there were small children working in coal mines. But now all they do is keep the working man from working and make costs so unbearably high for corporations that we have to send jobs over to India and China.

Those posters bear a remarkable resemblance to the old Communist Party USSR posters. The only thing missing is the hammer and sickle.
okay...

They also bear resemblance the old American posters during WWII. COINCIDENCE!? Is America taking art lessons from the commies!? GO KILL THEM, EUTRUSCA!!!!!

http://bss.sfsu.edu/internment/posters.html

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-posters/american.htm

Sheehan is a stupid idiot. Remember in democracy people have the freedom to be stupid idiots. I would defend their right to be that way. I hope Sheehan continues.. she'll look worse and worse as she uses her son for political games. I find that sick and disgusting, but then again she has the right to do it.

Her husband is divorcing her for that fact.

I would like to see the income tax amendment repealed, ... privatise the postal service like they are doing in Japan, etc. etc. etc.So mostly a lot of libertarianism? :D

:)

I see the usual right wing tactic of repeating a lie often enough until people actually just assume it must be true since they have heard it so often. Maybe if you took your head out of your ass for a few seconds and used the few remaining working brain cells you have left you might have a chance to comprehend that Ms Sheehan was not referring to the US when she was made the comment that,"This Country isn't worth dying for." Most people with a brain are able to see that she meant Iraq, but I guess therein lies the problem doesn't it? Lemmings like you do not have brains that work. :)

Sheehan claims to champion the side of truth and humanity.. But how humane can one really claim to be when they openly advocate the idea that the lives of one nation are worth more then the lives of another. And whose truth does she really stand for when she pushes the ideal that Freedom is anything but a nobel cause to die for (surely not the America who has long belived death in freedom before life in servidude).

She is allowed to speak because someone stood up to fight for her freedom. While she may oppose what is going on.. to degrade the efforts to give that same freedom she enjoys to another person is not only obsence, but just a little hipocritical and racist at the same time O.o.

I'll join ya, Eutrusca. :sniper:

Personally, I think we need a revolution here... for the good of America.

No, really, I mean, it's insane. We have this crazy 50/50 divide and we're trying to fight a war against half the world without even having our own citizens united behind the cause.Revolution? you mean like a Civil war?

:rolleyes:

I don't know why they bitch about her. They keep getting nasty about her and keep getting her attention.

If these lunkheads simply bit their tongues, she would have had hewr 15 minutes and would have quickly been forgotten.

Ahh well.....

Revolution? you mean like a Civil war?

That's what I figured he said and it got a :rolleyes:

That would really help the war on terror.

Sheehan claims to champion the side of truth and humanity.. But how humane can one really claim to be when they openly advocate the idea that the lives of one nation are worth more then the lives of another.
I would say that she's just honest about it. I'm pretty sure 95% of people think that the lives of their countrymen are worth more than the lives of let's say Sudanese people. If that wouldn't be the case, the world would be a very different place.

I would say that she's just honest about it. I'm pretty sure 95% of people think that the lives of their countrymen are worth more than the lives of let's say Sudanese people. If that wouldn't be the case, the world would be a very different place.If that were true I'd say that 95% of people should think: what really makes a countryman's life greater than a foreigner's?

Eut, I'm really disappointed in you. Haven't you read the thread you started? The quote about America not dying for has been taken out of context...

I would say that she's just honest about it. I'm pretty sure 95% of people think that the lives of their countrymen are worth more than the lives of let's say Sudanese people. If that wouldn't be the case, the world would be a very different place.

this line of "honesty" as you so name it, is hardly indicative of the real world we live in today, or the moral code America has claimed to champion since its incpetion. We give our soldiers to the call of humanitarian efforts through the UN daily, whose lives maybe sacrificed for the betterment of the less fortunate. How many more individual citizens dedicate their lives working in hostile enviornments to better the sick and starving.

Did we fight hitler because japan was the threat ? Did we intervine in Kosovo and Bosnia because there was some profit to be made ? 95% of people might say the lives of their own children are worth more then those of others however less fortunate simply because of sentimental attachment.. but when considering their entirety... most Americans would agree, the sacrifice of life is worth that for Freedom.

And no matter how many times Sheehan tells herself the lies that she represents mainstream america.. she simply is not representing what most americans belive today.

This "Honesty" is only stating the selfish agenda she so supports, and obviously ideals are not a nobel cause to die for. Perhaps then the only thing worth dying for is profit ? Im sure many to her cause would have no problem finding the profit in Iraq, be it ever ellusive.

If that were true I'd say that 95% of people should think: what really makes a countryman's life greater than a foreigner's?
Yes, they, including me, should think. Why my mother is more important to me than some other woman living in Belarus? Why I'm more concerned about the lives of my neighbours than about the lives of some complete stranger on the other side of the world? Maybe because I'm human and not a machine which can forget (can not think of) the emotional side of everything.

but when considering their entirety... most Americans would agree, the sacrifice of life is worth that for Freedom.

But how humane can one really claim to be when they openly advocate the idea that the lives of one nation are worth more then the lives of another.
Two separate issues IMO. I'm not arguing the first one or whether Sheenan represents anyone or not.

It's amazing how right-wingers are getting dumber as I read this thread. :rolleyes:

BTW, Iraq is like a massive execution chamber for American soldiers. These guys died here for a stupid reason. It's not worth dying here.

If that were true I'd say that 95% of people should think: what really makes a countryman's life greater than a foreigner's?

Yea.....everyone might be living under democracy and freedom. But, I forgot, you don't give a shit about anyone that you don't know. So who cares if they have to live under a dictator, don't get the rights and freedoms that they are legally entitled too, or that they have to try and survive acts of genocide against them.

BTW, Iraq is like a massive execution chamber for American soldiers. These guys died here for a stupid reason. It's not worth dying here.

Funny how well less then 1%, if not 0.5%, of the soldiers that are deployed there actually get killed. Pretty ineffective massive execution chamber if you ask me. See stupid reason above.

send in the coffins...............

Cindy Sheehan is Public Enemy Number One to the Bushevik Party. Anyone who dares speak badly of Il Duh-ce is a traitor in their collective thoughts and she has rallied more people to her cause.

Hence the pathological obcession with demonizing her motives and (my personal favorite) playing John Edward (the Crossing Over guy) and proclaiming that Casey Sheehan is disgusted at his own mother's actions.

If she really was wrong like the Busheviks keep chanting to themselves, they should be taking example from Il Duh-ce and ignore her. Instead they're acting like Scientogolists on the warpath trying (and failing) to erase her credibility as a human being, much less a voice of reasonable opposition.

You don't try to destroy someone with a wrong opinion... unless they're not as wrong as you want everyone to believe.

Yes, they, including me, should think. Why my mother is more important to me than some other woman living in Belarus? Why I'm more concerned about the lives of my neighbours than about the lives of some complete stranger on the other side of the world? Maybe because I'm human and not a machine which can forget (can not think of) the emotional side of everything.I'm talking about countrymen in general, not those with which you have personal relations. My mother is more important to me than anyone whom I don't know, regardless of location. And a friend of mine living in Britain would be more important than someone who just happens to live in the US.

Yea.....everyone might be living under democracy and freedom. But, I forgot, you don't give a shit about anyone that you don't know. So who cares if they have to live under a dictator, don't get the rights and freedoms that they are legally entitled too, or that they have to try and survive acts of genocide against them.Actually, I was pro-invasion. I'm just asking if anyone can give me a reason for the idea that a countryman is worth more than a foreigner, as put forth by Helioterra.

I'm talking about countrymen in general, not those with which you have personal relations. My mother is more important to me than anyone whom I don't know, regardless of location. And a friend of mine living in Britain would be more important than someone who just happens to live in the US.

Actually, I was pro-invasion. I'm just asking if anyone can give me a reason for the idea that a countryman is worth more than a foreigner, as put forth by Helioterra.

I'm sorry for the mistake, I quoted the wrong person.

At the core of this is the question: Is the Iraqi war a just war?


Well, I'd have to say no, though it is far too late to back out.

Many right wings dance around the totem of it being for the protection of the United States (Note: not "protection of the Iraqi people"). Yet, was Saddam a threat? We left Osama in the mountains of Afgahnistan. Bush made no effort to solve the situation in Iraq peacefully, abruptly calling an end to U.N. inspections, despite his accusations of them having WMDs, when it's believed that Saddam fully dismantled his program in '96. Furthermore, it's been proven that there never was any connection between 9/11 and Saddam Hussein: it was a lie to gain support of this unjust war.

We were not greeted as liberators, but as occupyers, and we spawned a breeding ground for terrorists. It in no way ended attacks on the U.S., it just moved them from our soil to Iraq. Our blood is still being spilled. Also, Opinion of the U. S. world-wide has gone down, ESPECIALLY in Muslim countries.

The War is fashioning a more dangerous environment. Yet we have no choice but to stay, because it has further potential to make the world even more dangerous if we leave.

If the motivation was, in fact, liberation, why did we pick Iraq and not... the Sudan, places where genocide is occuring.

Sheehan has the right to speak her mind, after-all it's a democracy. And I think Bush does have some explaining to do. Why the hell are we there?

My guess is a personal vendetta with Saddam.

Vendetta against Saddam, avenging Daddy's honor while showing him up, securing more oil for his corporate buddies to gouge the American consumer with, Christian proselytizing, batting practice with penis for PNAC, plenty of reasons.

Actually, I was pro-invasion. I'm just asking if anyone can give me a reason for the idea that a countryman is worth more than a foreigner, as put forth by Helioterra.I've heard "Better to kill them in Iraq than in New York" a lot. I think it's mainly because it would be Iraqis in the crossfire instead of Americans.

Actually, I was pro-invasion. I'm just asking if anyone can give me a reason for the idea that a countryman is worth more than a foreigner, as put forth by Helioterra.

If I understand that sentence correctly, you would like to see your tax money to go to 3rd world countries rather than improving your own? After all, if citizens of another country are just as important to you in political life, that would entitle them, wouldn't it?
And, of course, you would have to make it your personal crusade to bring peace and stability to every corner of the globe... not just to invade those countries that are currently rubbing you the wrong way.

I'm talking about countrymen in general, not those with which you have personal relations. My mother is more important to me than anyone whom I don't know, regardless of location. And a friend of mine living in Britain would be more important than someone who just happens to live in the US.


I understand, but I think that "countrymen in general" are closer to us than people from the other side of the world. Because we (most) share the same culture, language etc. Also the countrymen have bigger effect on our lives than foreigners in other countries.

I'll join ya, Eutrusca. :sniper:

Personally, I think we need a revolution here... for the good of America.

No, really, I mean, it's insane. We have this crazy 50/50 divide and we're trying to fight a war against half the world without even having our own citizens united behind the cause.

I would like to see the income tax amendment repealed, the establishment of a national sales tax on non-vital goods instead, a balanced budget act, just take out most welfare/social services programmes for people that are physically capable of working (note that I do support government aid for people who are legitimately disabled/and/or/mentally retarded), strip the ability of the government to levy excessive taxes and waste tax money on "pork" projects, give civilians the rights to have any firearms/explosives that they want, restrict the use of eminent domain nationwide to only allow the government to seize property to build hospitals/public schools/highways, etc., see Bush's plan for private accounts instead of Social Security passed, strengthen the military, begin building nuclear power plants and improving our weapons capabilities, secularise things beyond belief of most people that would agree with what I've said so far (gay marriage, abolishment of blue laws, etc.), legalise recreational drugs/smoking in all places, let capitalism reign free of pointless restrictions, make prostitution and pornography legal, let people have fatty foods and stuff again, give the power back to the people and take most of it away from Washington, deregulate the airwaves, privatise the postal service like they are doing in Japan, etc. etc. etc.

Oh, and the cause I have been the most vocal about: I despise the United Nations. I'd probably have throw a party if a terrorist or something blew up their HQ tomorrow. Maybe it's illegal to say that. I don't know. I consider myself liberated of such pointless laws. I exercise my freedom of speech.

You too eh ? Love to see the UN go bye bye or atleast get the hell out of my country. As for the protests. once American soldiers are engaged in combat we need to support them. These flower power protests need to stay in the past. They hurt moral therefore get more killed.

Only reason America failed in Vietnam was A) hippies doing their dambdest to break moral and B) US govt tieing the militaries hands.

Once war declared Poloticians need to sit back and shut up , let the soldiers do their job

As for the protests. once American soldiers are engaged in combat we need to support them.

Why? If I don't like it that they kill people in my name without my consent, I'll say it.


Once war declared Poloticians need to sit back and shut up , let the soldiers do their job

Oh, what a splendid idea. Now that war is declared, let's throw diplomacy overboard and warm ourselves at the nice glow of the next world war. It did work SO well in the past didn't it?

Once war declared Poloticians need to sit back and shut up , let the soldiers do their jobWhich is exactly what they did for Hitler.

They hurt moral therefore get more killed.... hippies doing their dambdest to break moral ...
I think you mean "morale". "Moral" is something completely different...

If I understand that sentence correctly, you would like to see your tax money to go to 3rd world countries rather than improving your own? After all, if citizens of another country are just as important to you in political life, that would entitle them, wouldn't it?First off, the comment was in reference to the life of one nation's citizens vs. another's... but I'll respond anyway. Theoretically yes, everyone is entitled to things according to their merits, and no one would have more just because of where they happen to live on planet Earth. Unfortunately the very existence of seperate national governments bars complete and utter equality in this sense. We cannot just send money overseas to fight things like poverty in 3rd world nations because more often than not it gets usurped by corruption. And I think that if the Army Corps of Engineers or someone similar waltzed into Harare and built say, some power plants, it wouldn't do much good with someone like Mugabe running the show. Helping the 3rd world is not about throwing money at the problems.

And, of course, you would have to make it your personal crusade to bring peace and stability to every corner of the globe... not just to invade those countries that are currently rubbing you the wrong way.Believing that human lives are equal regardless of where they live is a far cry from crusading (especially since it would be in vain, I'm sure) to stabalise the entire globe.

Who the feck is Cindy Sheehan?

As for the protests. once American soldiers are engaged in combat we need to support them. [snip] They hurt moral therefore get more killed.

How does that work, then? Everytime someone says "I don't believe the war in Iraq is justified" a soldier dies? Like everytime someone says "I don't believe in fairies" a fairy dies?

Which is exactly what they did for Hitler.
No he pretty much had his fingers in every pie. If he had just let his soldiers do their job they would have done alot better!

No he pretty much had his fingers in every pie. If he had just let his soldiers do their job they would have done alot better!What are you talking about?

We need far fewer people like Cindy Sheehan here in America. All her dishonoring of her own son has accomplished is to kick-start the same anti-American and ultimately anti-Soldier bullshit to which the wonderful protestors resorted during Vietnam. What wonderful people they were, so in love with "peace," so compassionate and humble. Yeah. Right. :rolleyes:

This is the start of the same Goddamned bullshit, Cindy Sheehan and her fellow-travellers saying things like "This Country isn't worth dying for." And you can play with allegations about "word order" and "context" and "intent" all you want to ... that is in FACT what she said!

This approach to conflict "resolution" is a prescription for civil war in this Country. There are millions of veterans out here who remember how they and their brothers were reviled by the goddamned asshat "protestors," and we will not allow that to happen again ... period!

Well said Drone 34543. The Government thanks you for your dedication to our vision. You will receive your reward later. In time we will abolish this "Freedom" Thing that is causing us so much trouble.

:)

I see the usual right wing tactic of repeating a lie often enough until people actually just assume it must be true since they have heard it so often. Maybe if you took your head out of your ass for a few seconds and used the few remaining working brain cells you have left you might have a chance to comprehend that Ms Sheehan was not referring to the US when she was made the comment that,"This Country isn't worth dying for." Most people with a brain are able to see that she meant Iraq, but I guess therein lies the problem doesn't it? Lemmings like you do not have brains that work. :)

Warned for flaming. Don't do it again.

We need far fewer people like Cindy Sheehan here in America. All her dishonoring of her own son has accomplished is to kick-start the same anti-American and ultimately anti-Soldier bullshit to which the wonderful protestors resorted during Vietnam. What wonderful people they were, so in love with "peace," so compassionate and humble. Yeah. Right. :rolleyes:

This is the start of the same Goddamned bullshit, Cindy Sheehan and her fellow-travellers saying things like "This Country isn't worth dying for." And you can play with allegations about "word order" and "context" and "intent" all you want to ... that is in FACT what she said!

This approach to conflict "resolution" is a prescription for civil war in this Country. There are millions of veterans out here who remember how they and their brothers were reviled by the goddamned asshat "protestors," and we will not allow that to happen again ... period!

fascism is centrist these days, is it?

We need far fewer people like Cindy Sheehan here in America. All her dishonoring of her own son has accomplished is to kick-start the same anti-American and ultimately anti-Soldier bullshit to which the wonderful protestors resorted during Vietnam. What wonderful people they were, so in love with "peace," so compassionate and humble. Yeah. Right. :rolleyes:

This is the start of the same Goddamned bullshit, Cindy Sheehan and her fellow-travellers saying things like "This Country isn't worth dying for." And you can play with allegations about "word order" and "context" and "intent" all you want to ... that is in FACT what she said!

This approach to conflict "resolution" is a prescription for civil war in this Country. There are millions of veterans out here who remember how they and their brothers were reviled by the goddamned asshat "protestors," and we will not allow that to happen again ... period!

Basicly what your saying is that you would allow freedom of speech up till the point where it becomes mocking of that institution which allows said freedom

fascism is centrist these days, is it?

Yes. Centrists often maintain some fascist stances and some libertarian stances. For example, a centrist might be in favor of strict gun control and be pro-choice on the abortion issue. The first is very much a fascist policy.

For example, a centrist might be in favor of strict gun control and be pro-choice on the abortion issue. The first is very much a fascist policy.
Hahahaha - Europe is a fascist continent!

I wish people wouldn't bandy terms about so loosely.

Hahahaha - Europe is a fascist continent!

I wish people wouldn't bandy terms about so loosely.
Damn those fascist socialists!

Actually, I was pro-invasion. I'm just asking if anyone can give me a reason for the idea that a countryman is worth more than a foreigner, as put forth by Helioterra.I found a quote supporting it:
They know that if we do not confront these evil men abroad, we will have to face them one day in our own cities and streets, and they know that the safety and security of every American is at stake in this war, and they know we will prevail.In order to ensure the safety and security of Americans, he's willing to put Iraqis at risk.

This approach to conflict "resolution" is a prescription for civil war in this Country. There are millions of veterans out here who remember how they and their brothers were reviled by the goddamned asshat "protestors," and we will not allow that to happen again ... period!

I'll look forward to fighting against you on the field of battle when this Civil war begins.

Damn those fascist socialists!
Hey, come on, the EPPs have the most seats in the EU parliament and "family values" are just as much conservative values as they are fascist values. :D

Hey, come on, the EPPs have the most seats in the EU parliament and "family values" are just as much conservative values as they are fascist values. :D
damn, you're right. There are no socialist in EPP

damn, you're right. There are no socialist in EPP
Why should the European conservatives have socialisists amont their ranks? The only "socialists" I know of are those of the CSU, and their opinion of family closely resembles that of the Nazis... it's scary.

I'll look forward to fighting against you on the field of battle when this Civil war begins.
You take yourself way too seriously.

Cindy Sheehan is Public Enemy Number One to the Bushevik Party.thats more and more evident...

Why should the European conservatives have socialisists amont their ranks? The only "socialists" I know of are those of the CSU, and their opinion of family closely resembles that of the Nazis... it's scary.
They shouldn't. I was just underlining your post.

This approach to conflict "resolution" is a prescription for civil war in this Country. There are millions of veterans out here who remember how they and their brothers were reviled by the goddamned asshat "protestors," and we will not allow that to happen again ... period!
Let's keep it civil Eutrusca. Saying that all protestors are asshats is rude. It may be your opinion, but tone it down a bit.

[Edit: I was too harsh, in responding to Eutrusca, who was stating his own opinion, and wasn't offending anyone, in actuality. I apologize for that. /edit]

What I like is people who insult this woman and then turn around and say she's dishonoring her son, as if they're taking the son's side. Yeah, like insulting a guy's mother is really going to make him grateful. If I were him I'd be embarassed and rather bitter towards EVERYONE in this situation, the people on both sides using this as another soap box for another Us versus Them dickfest.

We need far fewer people like Cindy Sheehan here in America. All her dishonoring of her own son has accomplished is to kick-start the same anti-American and ultimately anti-Soldier bullshit to which the wonderful protestors resorted during Vietnam. What wonderful people they were, so in love with "peace," so compassionate and humble. Yeah. Right. :rolleyes:

This is the start of the same Goddamned bullshit, Cindy Sheehan and her fellow-travellers saying things like "This Country isn't worth dying for." And you can play with allegations about "word order" and "context" and "intent" all you want to ... that is in FACT what she said!

This approach to conflict "resolution" is a prescription for civil war in this Country. There are millions of veterans out here who remember how they and their brothers were reviled by the goddamned asshat "protestors," and we will not allow that to happen again ... period!And your solution is what--elimination of all who dare disagree with whatever the people in power decide is the right thing to do with our military? Is that it? Why don't you just wipe your ass with the First Amendment while you're at it?

Let me tell you something, Eutrusca--your service to this country gets you a certain level of respect, but that respect dissipates when it becomes obvious that you don't have the first fucking clue what this country should stand for, primarily, the freedom to stand up and make an ass of yourself protesting if that's what you choose to do.

Personally, I think that people like Limbaugh and Bush and Rove and Rumsfeld and the whole lot of them are sending this country straight to hell, but I would never--never--try to shut them up. Those idiots who are out there counter-protesting Cindy Sheehan? They're idiots, and I think they're wrong, but I salute the fact that they're exercising their rights to protest, even if I believe that were the tables turned, they'd do everything in their power to shut me up.

Just like I believe you would.

That's the difference between us, Eutrusca. I may not have served in the military, but I fight for the actual principles that our Constitution sets out for us. You served, and you fight to destroy those principles.

Sheehan is a stupid idiot. Remember in democracy people have the freedom to be stupid idiots. I would defend their right to be that way. I hope Sheehan continues.. she'll look worse and worse as she uses her son for political games. I find that sick and disgusting, but then again she has the right to do it.

Her husband is divorcing her for that fact.
I’m not sure , as much as I personally don’t care for the woman the counter protesters in my opinion are doing more damage for their cause

You take yourself way too seriously.

You yourself seem to also. I'm just countering the illogical behavior of yourself with my own craziness.

Your behavior matches those who fall under the belief of my Sig, which I will now quote.

Remember this message well people, it's happening to us.

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

You and alot of others seem to think the Pacifists are anti US and a danger to the country. Seems that the theory works.

At the core of this is the question: Is the Iraqi war a just war?


Well, I'd have to say no, though it is far too late to back out.

Many right wings dance around the totem of it being for the protection of the United States (Note: not "protection of the Iraqi people"). Yet, was Saddam a threat? We left Osama in the mountains of Afgahnistan. Bush made no effort to solve the situation in Iraq peacefully, abruptly calling an end to U.N. inspections, despite his accusations of them having WMDs, when it's believed that Saddam fully dismantled his program in '96. Furthermore, it's been proven that there never was any connection between 9/11 and Saddam Hussein: it was a lie to gain support of this unjust war.

We were not greeted as liberators, but as occupyers, and we spawned a breeding ground for terrorists. It in no way ended attacks on the U.S., it just moved them from our soil to Iraq. Our blood is still being spilled. Also, Opinion of the U. S. world-wide has gone down, ESPECIALLY in Muslim countries.

The War is fashioning a more dangerous environment. Yet we have no choice but to stay, because it has further potential to make the world even more dangerous if we leave.

If the motivation was, in fact, liberation, why did we pick Iraq and not... the Sudan, places where genocide is occuring.

Sheehan has the right to speak her mind, after-all it's a democracy. And I think Bush does have some explaining to do. Why the hell are we there?

My guess is a personal vendetta with Saddam.

GAWH!!!!... this is riddled with falises and falsehoods.

Firstly right wingers DO proclaim this to be an effort to bring the Iraqi people freedom... we belived this to be a stronger motivation to go to war then WMD in the first place.

Secondly Bush made no effort to resolve the matter diplomatically ??? what was resolution 1441 ? what were the 90 days of inspections for ? According to the UN Iraq was a threat, and the onis was on them to COOPERATE... Which according to Hanz Blix they were NOT thus in violation of the resolution (regardless of if he belived they had WMD or not). If we just wanted war we would have skiped the UN and gone in alone.

Thridly Please give me the qoute where Bush DIRECTLY links sadam to 9/11!
Bush linked Saddam to supporting terrorism which =/= Osama or 9/11 directly! Evidence is clearly avalible to show Saddam supported terrorist activities even if they were seperate from Al'Qaeda. What people get wrong is.... Al'Qaeda =/= all terrorist activities!

Fourthly .. Its a tall claim to say Bush lied where there is no evidence that he had intellegence positivly showing Saddam had no WMD.... only sugestions from Some anaylists. How many anaylists also said they DID have WMD ??? Did bush lie and everyone just HAPPEN to belive him ? .. please! the UN security council saw the same intelegence from the world community collectivly and belived Iraq a threat enough to pass resolution 1441. An indication BUSH DID NOT LIE but belived the intellegence he had just like the rest of the UN at the time.

Fifthly... i think you vastly overestimate just how much the opinion of the US has droped since Iraq... they never painted a rosy picture of the US to begin with because of our support for Israel. Those who hated us hate us more.. those who didn't care still dont care... those who liked us see it for what it is.. bringing democracy to Iraq. This I have gathered from first hand experiance. More then what you might think just from the Media.

We couldn't possibly pick Sudan... because according to the UN genocide is NOT occuring .... :eek:

Besides, Iraq has had a history of 1. Defying UN resolutions against it... 2. Using WMD on its own people... 3. Invading other countries for its own personal goals. This makes Iraq a ripe target for attack if you ask me.

I found a quote supporting it:
In order to ensure the safety and security of Americans, he's willing to put Iraqis at risk.

And Anti-war protestors are willing to save american lives at the cost of thousands of innocent iraqi civilians... Interesting how that pedulum swings both ways.

You yourself seem to also. I'm just countering the illogical behavior of yourself with my own craziness.

Your behavior matches those who fall under the belief of my Sig, which I will now quote.

Remember this message well people, it's happening to us.

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

You and alot of others seem to think the Pacifists are anti US and a danger to the country. Seems that the theory works.
No, I don't think many protestors are "anti-American," just mostly misguided dupes. I fully support everyone's right to freedom of speech, and their right to make a total idiot of themselves. What I do not support is those who call themselves protestors hiding behind the First Amendment to attack those who lay their lives on the line to preserve the very rights the protestors abuse.

I've publicly stated before, and will do so again and again and again, that anyone attacking my brothers and sisters in arms will incur my undying enmity. Do they have the "right" to revile others? Of course they do. Do I have the "right" to call them the cowards and dickless wonders they are? Of course I do. Have I ever physically attacked any of them? Not at all. Will I physicially assault them in the future? I honestly don't know; I suppose it depends upon how enraged I become.

Her husband is divorcing her for that fact.
So you've talked to Mr. Sheehan, have you? He's stated to you personally or elsewhere publicly that this is the reason that he and his wife are divorcing?

Didn't think so.

Let me let you in on a little fact--something like 90% of all marriages that suffer the loss of a child end in divorce. That just might be more of a cause for this divorce than Mrs. Sheehan's political activism.

GAWH!!!!... this is riddled with falises and falsehoods.

Firstly right wingers DO proclaim this to be an effort to bring the Iraqi people freedom... we belived this to be a stronger motivation to go to war then WMD in the first place.

Strange how you didn't use that argument before the war, how you had to LIE to convince people the war was justified, the 45 minuates claim anyone?


Evidence is clearly avalible to show Saddam supported terrorist activities even if they were seperate from Al'Qaeda. What people get wrong is.... Al'Qaeda =/= all terrorist activities!
Where, I don't see any everdence, which terrorists organisations. And didn't the US finance the IRA for a while as well? So maybe we should all go to war on the US because there where some guys who funded terrorism there?

Fourthly .. Its a tall claim to say Bush lied where there is no evidence that he had intellegence positivly showing Saddam had no WMD
And theres no everdence to say he had any WMD at all other than some photographs of nothing threatening.

As for everdence that Saddam had no WMD? How about the weapons inspectors?

Fifthly... i think you vastly overestimate just how much the opinion of the US has droped since Iraq... they never painted a rosy picture of the US to begin with because of our support for Israel. Those who hated us hate us more.. those who didn't care still dont care... those who liked us see it for what it is.. bringing democracy to Iraq. This I have gathered from first hand experiance. More then what you might think just from the Media.

What was the latest pole result? 35% for, everyone else against?

We couldn't possibly pick Sudan... because according to the UN genocide is NOT occuring .... :eek:
According to the US genocided didn't occure in Rewander. Organisations are fallible. You didn't do nayhthing about Rawander did you?

In order to ensure the safety and security of Americans, he's willing to put Iraqis at risk.For starters, it's pretty hard to overthrow a dictator on your own soil... in order to have no Iraqi risk whatsoever we'd have to flat out not go there. Besides, I seem to recall it being American soldiers doing most of the fighting, not Iraqis. If that's not putting our countrymen at a great risk, what is? It's not a sacrifice of Iraqis to save American lives, as you seem to be implying.

According to the US genocided didn't occure in Rewander. Organisations are fallible. You didn't do nayhthing about Rawander did you?You're right, Clinton didn't do anything about Rwanda. That was a terrible mistake, letting 10% of a nation's population get wasted by machete.

No, I don't think many protestors are "anti-American," just mostly misguided dupes. I fully support everyone's right to freedom of speech, and their right to make a total idiot of themselves. What I do not support is those who call themselves protestors hiding behind the First Amendment to attack those who lay their lives on the line to preserve the very rights the protestors abuse.

The Bush Administration is laying their collectives lives on the line to protect the rights of Americans? There's a new one.

No, I don't think many protestors are "anti-American," just mostly misguided dupes. I fully support everyone's right to freedom of speech, and their right to make a total idiot of themselves. What I do not support is those who call themselves protestors hiding behind the First Amendment to attack those who lay their lives on the line to preserve the very rights the protestors abuse.

I've publicly stated before, and will do so again and again and again, that anyone attacking my brothers and sisters in arms will incur my undying enmity. Do they have the "right" to revile others? Of course they do. Do I have the "right" to call them the cowards and dickless wonders they are? Of course I do. Have I ever physically attacked any of them? Not at all. Will I physicially assault them in the future? I honestly don't know; I suppose it depends upon how enraged I become.
Quit threatening violence. You were told to stop once.

I don't support throwing away lives in stupid games like we've done in Iraq. I know far too many people who have been killed as a result of Bush's little war, and all of them were great people.

Strange how you didn't use that argument before the war, how you had to LIE to convince people the war was justified, the 45 minuates claim anyone?

Unlike Britian, had you listened to Bush's speeches instead of writing them off.. you would know this argument in fact WAS used... which is why Bush took far less flak in the United States then Blair did in Britian..

where is the lie ? you have evidnece showing Bush knew this not to be true ? Did Chirac and Shroder just jump on board because they trusted Bush ? please.... dont be so naive. These countries looked at the same intellegence and came to the same conclusions as Bush did. Hence 1441

Where, I don't see any everdence, which terrorists organisations. And didn't the US finance the IRA for a while as well? So maybe we should all go to war on the US because there where some guys who funded terrorism there?

http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/bu/iraq/iraq_f_a.htm
This coupled with countless other circumstances of Iraqi harboring of terrorist pre-war clearly show how Iraq supported terrorism... TERRORISM =/= ONLY Al`QAEDA.. and from Bush's own speach on this matter, America would confront terrorism in all its forms and those STATE sponsors of it. That is the US foregin policy now.

And theres no everdence to say he had any WMD at all other than some photographs of nothing threatening.

On the contrary, according to intellegence at the time which we now know to be wrong (but no evidence anyone knew this before hand) there was STRONG evendince.. Strong enough for Chirac and all other countries to sign on to resolution 1441 stating Iraq was a threat with the capability to use WMD!! where is your point again ?

As for everdence that Saddam had no WMD? How about the weapons inspectors?

Last i saw, Inspectors had no concrete evidence either way :O but they DID say Iraq was in violation of resolution 1441 not full disclosing all information and intentionally misleading inspectors thus validating war.

According to the US genocided didn't occure in Rewander. Organisations are fallible. You didn't do nayhthing about Rawander did you?

RWANDA.. yes how interesting you should bring that up as it was AMERICA who needed to intervine to bring that to a close after the UN FAILED in its mission.. It was not just the US who was unable to identify that situation in time but the UN as well...

It's pretty amazing that no Bushite is willing to admit that anti-war protestors are genuinely against the war for moral reasons. Why the assumption that they have evil ulterior motives?

This is the start of the same Goddamned bullshit, Cindy Sheehan and her fellow-travellers saying things like "This Country isn't worth dying for."
Hold on, what is wrong with this? Should someone not be allowed to claim that Iraq isn't worth dying for? Maybe you disagree with this, but that doesn't mean it is a bad thing that someone is saying it. That is, unless you do actually want to live in a country where everyone agrees with you.

Does it bother you, little man? Then don't read it. Simple enough for even a protestor to understand. :D
So you think all protestors are fools who would blindly follow the government if they only knew better?

Nuke dissent!

No, really, I mean, it's insane. We have this crazy 50/50 divide and we're trying to fight a war against half the world without even having our own citizens united behind the cause.
Half the world??? Which world is that, may I ask?

I would like to see the income tax amendment repealed, the establishment of a national sales tax on non-vital goods instead, a balanced budget act, just take out most welfare/social services programmes for people that are physically capable of working (note that I do support government aid for people who are legitimately disabled/and/or/mentally retarded)... strengthen the military, begin building nuclear power plants and improving our weapons capabilities
I see you hold a set of utterly incompatible beliefs. You want income taxes gone, yet you want to make the US military even bigger than it already is (I actually agree with that), provide welfare for the disabled, more nuclear technology and roads (presumably). I doubt that's possible without income tax, even given spending cuts in other areas.

Those posters bear a remarkable resemblance to the old Communist Party USSR posters. The only thing missing is the hammer and sickle.
Yeah, they use such specifically communist design techniques such as paintings of workers; red, white and blue colour schemes; and the English language. :rolleyes:

how humane can one really claim to be when they openly advocate the idea that the lives of one nation are worth more then the lives of another?
"It's better to fight the terrorists in Iraq than in America."

Don't say you've never heard that one.


BTW, Iraq is like a massive execution chamber for American soldiers. These guys died here for a stupid reason. It's not worth dying here.
This is not true. Deaths are quite low in Iraq compared to other wars.

As for the protests. once American soldiers are engaged in combat we need to support them. These flower power protests need to stay in the past. They hurt moral therefore get more killed.

Hell, why not just outlaw dissent and continue the war permanently? Then you'll never have a problem with "flower power" protestors again!

Which is exactly what they did for Hitler.
Don't invoke Godwin's law!

Unfortunately the very existence of seperate national governments bars complete and utter equality in this sense. We cannot just send money overseas to fight things like poverty in 3rd world nations because more often than not it gets usurped by corruption. And I think that if the Army Corps of Engineers or someone similar waltzed into Harare and built say, some power plants, it wouldn't do much good with someone like Mugabe running the show. Helping the 3rd world is not about throwing money at the problems.

Mugabe is an exception not the rule. Africa has 30 elected governments. If people in the third world must work to get money, rather than being given it, why shouldn't they also have to work/fight for their own freedom without being given it? I support both aid and war for democracy. At least my beliefs are consistent.

the people on both sides using this as another soap box for another Us versus Them dickfest.
lol, "dickfest" ;)

That's the difference between us, Eutrusca. I may not have served in the military, but I fight for the actual principles that our Constitution sets out for us. You served, and you fight to destroy those principles.
I don't think that posting on an internet forum counts as "fighting". That goes for both of you.

Where, I don't see any everdence, which terrorists organisations. And didn't the US finance the IRA for a while as well? So maybe we should all go to war on the US because there where some guys who funded terrorism there?
Incorrect. Some private US citizens funded the IRA. The US Government's fault was that it was not illegal to fund them from America.


According to the US genocided didn't occure in Rewander. Organisations are fallible. You didn't do nayhthing about Rawander did you?
Ah, the ignoring of the Rwanda case "doesn't count as America" because Clinton was in charge. ;)

Last i saw, Inspectors had no concrete evidence either way :O but they DID say Iraq was in violation of resolution 1441 not full disclosing all information and intentionally misleading inspectors thus validating war.

Incorrect. According to resolution 1441 only the UN Security Council can declare (or validate) a war with Irak. Has the UN Security Council done so?

By the way, the US is also in material breach of resolution 1441, specifically clause 10:

10. Requests all Member States to give full support to UNMOVIC and the IAEA in the discharge of their mandates, including by providing any information related to prohibited programmes or other aspects of their mandates, including on Iraqi attempts since 1998 to acquire prohibited items, and by recommending sites to be inspected, persons to be interviewed, conditions of such interviews, and data to be collected, the results of which shall be reported to the Council by UNMOVIC and the IAEA;
does that mean that we can declare unilateral war on the US?

Ever since Cindy Sheehan started protesting, there have been tons of protesters protesting her protest. I find it quite amazing how this has gone on and on and on and has gotten wayyyyyyy out of proportion.

How can one lone woman anger so many people, when there are plenty of other things to be angry at--like Bill O'Reilly? No matter your views, I say you must give this woman credit for creating all this uncalled for controversy.

We need more people like Cindy here in America.
Bill O'Reilly?!? How can one lone man anger so many people, when there are plenty of other things to be angry at--like thousands of people getting their heads blown off for reasons that few people seem to understand?

If people in the third world must work to get money, rather than being given it, why shouldn't they also have to work/fight for their own freedom without being given it?Without outside help most oppressed peoples can never become free. They need a means to fight back, and it's pretty hard to fight armed forces with rocks and sticks. Very doubtful that they already have arms at their disposal. If it were possible for every nation to become free of its own accord, sure, but this is not the case. I do support foriegn aid, but I'd point out that it's way more beneficial to allow foreign business into a nation than it is to simply hand out cash.

I support both aid and war for democracy.As do I. But not to the extent that I was asked about originally, where the situation was that all of my taxes would be better suited being spent overseas.

RWANDA.. yes how interesting you should bring that up as it was AMERICA who needed to intervine to bring that to a close after the UN FAILED in its mission.. It was not just the US who was unable to identify that situation in time but the UN as well...

America had the ability to prevent it. If the US said, let's stop this crap, everybody would have joined on. However, our rep was instructed to never utter the dreaded G word as it would force action.

Funny you say the UN FAILED. It's not an us vs them. We are part of the UN. If it fails, we failed.

To paraphrase from the movie hotel rwanda.

"When the average american sees this film footage, they will say 'Oh my God that's horrible' and then they will go back to eating their dinner"

That is basically what happened.

Clinton was a poll driven President. People lost their will over Somalia and so he didn't do anything.

Genocide is the probably the most worthy reason to go to war. If we asked our soldiers to volunteer for this mission, we would have had no problem filling the needed troop levels that would have prevented that mess.

Hahahaha - Europe is a fascist continent!

I wish people wouldn't bandy terms about so loosely.

I agree. Suggesting that someone is a fascist simply because they express the same authoritarian sentiments as a fascist might on one particular issue seems a bit specious. I'm a little surprised and disappointed that someone as intelligent as Free Soviets would do that, which is why I responded.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=440467&page=1&pp=15

Enough said.