NationStates Jolt Archive

I should have asked this question much earlier. To me it seems that a lot of you think Christianity is about gay-bashing and stopping people from having fun. What exactly do you think Christianity is corely about?

I believe Christianity is about following the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I'm an example of an atheist/agnostic who isn't a moronic Christian basher. Having been Christian at one point, I am not completely ignorant of the religion. Heh, I might know more than some Christians actually do.

I believe Christianity is about following the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Which ONE is the most important, specifically, in your opinion?

Which ONE is the most important, specifically, in your opinion?

Which one teaching of Jesus?

I don't see why they shouldn't all be viewed as equally important among Christians.

I should have asked this question much earlier. To me it seems that a lot of you think Christianity is about gay-bashing and stopping people from having fun. What exactly do you think Christianity is corely about?
It’s about accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, acknowledging that he died for our sins so we shouldn’t have to, and rose three says later, demonstrating the triumph over death.

Falsity.

I think one of the major cornerstones of the religion can be found in Matthew 25. The whole message of the Judgement of the Nations is to treat all those who are less fortunate than u as though they were God. :) Mercy and forgiveness are also major themes in Christianity. I think its a very very pure religion( certainly the best one I've come across) Jesus was friggin' awesome.

I think the problem is u have too many televangelists who focus more on the Old Testament version of God, who's favorite hobby seemed to be crushing people with fire and brimstone. And as Thomas Paine said " Belief in a cruel God makes for a cruel man". It is sad that that brand of Chrisitianity is all that some people are exposed to.

Which one teaching of Jesus?

I don't see why they shouldn't all be viewed as equally important among Christians.

Even Jesus put priority to His teachings:

"Master, which is the chief rule in the law? And he said to him, Have love for the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest rule." Matthew 22: 36-38

Falsity.

Let's not go there, please.

It’s about accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, acknowledging that he died for our sins so we shouldn’t have to, and rose three says later, demonstrating the triumph over death.
Bingo! That's what Christianity is about! :D At least SOMEBODY knows. :rolleyes:

I believe Christianity is about following the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I am Jewish, and mostly agree with this statement about Christians.While the faith itself is also about spreading Christianity to non-Christians, I feel that in general, most Christians do not do this. I am quite happy about that, as I feel that it is wrong to try to force your religion upon others. As I said, the vast majority of Christians do not try to do this, which is good.

Bingo! That's what Christianity is about! :D At least SOMEBODY knows. :rolleyes:

Too bad that's not what Christianity is about. It's what Christianity according to itself should be about, but it isn't what it's about.

My understanding is that a Christian is a follower of Christ. I interperet this to mean that Christianity requires one make every effort to be 'Christ-like'.

I should have asked this question much earlier. To me it seems that a lot of you think Christianity is about gay-bashing and stopping people from having fun. What exactly do you think Christianity is corely about?
I understand Christianity, and have nothing but contempt for it. Its teachings are utterly irreconcilable with anything that I would call "morality."

That said, I think the reaction to Christianity being "all about" gay bashing and that sort of thing is kind of a knee-jerk reaction. For every one person you have quoting Leviticus, it seems, you have twenty five leaping down his throat.

As far as stopping people from having fun, I am regrettably obligated to point out that you guys dug your own grave with that one; Puritans are an excellent example. Catholics aren't terribly far behind.

How do u define morality? Have u even read the Bible? Doesn't sound like u have to be honest.

Too bad that's not what Christianity is about. It's what Christianity according to itself should be about, but it isn't what it's about.
Mind enlightening us as to what it is about?
I understand Christianity, and have nothing but contempt for it. Its teachings are utterly irreconcilable with anything that I would call "morality."
Such as?

Jesus was friggin' awesome.

Amen to that.

CHristianity is about following the teachings of Christ, Loving God with all your heart, mind, and soul, loving your neighbor as yourself, and forgiving those that have wronged you.

I should have asked this question much earlier. To me it seems that a lot of you think Christianity is about gay-bashing and stopping people from having fun. What exactly do you think Christianity is corely about?

Christianity is about hanging on to outdated belief systems in the face of
rationality.
Because while the sayings ascribed to Christ may on the whole be
reasonable and on occasion laudable, it is the intrinsic belief in a
creator who wants to be worshipped that is at the heart of it.

Otherwise it would be simply a philosophy and not a religion.

How do u define morality? Have u even read the Bible? Doesn't sound like u have to be honest.
First of all it's 'you,' not 'u.' If you plan on questioning the intellectual merits of another person, it's generally a wise tactic to avoid from making an ass of yourself by refusing to write two extra characters. If [hypothetically] my postulates carry no water on virtue of my not having read the Bible, your questions are correspondingly worthless on virtue of the fact that the English language has not been properly deployed.

Semantics aside, a brief synopsis of what morality is can be found in the link contained in my signature. Morality is not what I [or you] think it is, but like any aspect of reality it exists independent of our opinions of it. Salvation works for people, many Christians say, only if you beleive in said salvation. You hardly hear that said about penicillin or alcohol.

The problem I have with Christianity is it tells me that my faith should be placed in something other than myself. It urges mysticism, asserting [flying in the face of eons of gathered knowledge] that reason alone is not a sufficient tool for discerning the nature of reality. It, along with any other religion I can think of, urges that we dispense with reason in favor of blind faith: we are to feel right and wrong as opposed to knowing them.

If I may be so bold to point out that the only time in the course of human history that the Church was in full control of the State was in the Dark Ages. 800 years, no technological advancement to speak of. Coincidence? You decide.

EDIT: and I've read just about as much of the Bible as I care to; it's not a particulrarly engaging or interesting work. There are a few vivid scenes and some interesting characters, but if it were printed today, no one would read it, nor would they give the author the time of day. I think it's safe to say that the Bible contains equal parts plot, history, and [i]pizza.

Christianity is about hanging on to outdated belief systems in the face of
rationality.
Because while the sayings ascribed to Christ may on the whole be
reasonable and on occasion laudable, it is the intrinsic belief in a
creator who wants to be worshipped that is at the heart of it.

Otherwise it would be simply a philosophy and not a religion.

If you take it seriously, Christianity is a lot more than just a religion, which is simply "the belief in a supernatural being higher than humans". Christianity is a also a way of thinking - a philosophy, and also a way of living.

Even Jesus put priority to His teachings:

"Master, which is the chief rule in the law? And he said to him, Have love for the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest rule." Matthew 22: 36-38

aka, follow all of god's laws. jesus is nothing if not a tricky bastard. after all, the context of that passage is the pharisees yet again trying to trick jesus into saying something wrong. just like they did a few lines before about paying taxes.

Christianity is about following the teachings of Christ. Many people will use the Church of yester-century as an example to shut me up, but Islam is supposed to be a peacful religion and look at all the terrorists. You can't bash a way of life because of a few people caving in to their desires. I could probably find some examples of atheists gone crinimal because they're atheist and someone wasn't, but I won't stoop down to some underhanded assault.

christianity

n 1: a monotheistic system of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior [syn: Christianity, Christian religion] 2: the collective body of Christians throughout the world and history (found predominantly in Europe and the Americas and Australia); "for a thousand years the Roman Catholic Church was the principal church of Christendom" [syn: Christendom, Christianity]

Christianity is about hanging on to outdated belief systems in the face of
rationality.
Because while the sayings ascribed to Christ may on the whole be
reasonable and on occasion laudable, it is the intrinsic belief in a
creator who wants to be worshipped that is at the heart of it.

Otherwise it would be simply a philosophy and not a religion.



Outdated belief systems in the face of rationality? Which aspect of it has been disproven?

Melkor Unchained:

You talk about not liking Christianity because it tells you that your faith should be placed in something other than yourself. I will share with you WHY a Christian places their faith in God. I'm not asking you to convert or even to agree with me. But I think you should know WHY a Christian puts faith in God's will. The following ideas are all based on Christian doctrine, but are directly out of a book called, "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren. This is what life's purpose looks like through a Christian's eyes:

"The first thing that you need to know is that it's NOT about you. The purpose of you life is far greater than your own personal fufillment, your peace of mind, or even your happiness. It's far greater than your family, your career, or even your wildest dreams and amibitions. If you want to know why you were placed on this planet, you must begin with God. You were born BY His purpose and FOR His purpose.

The second thing that you need to know is that it's all for God! The ultimate goal of the universe is to show the glory of God. It is the reason for everything that exists, including you. God made it ALL for His glory! Without God's glory, there would be nothing.

The third thing that you need to know is that you were planned for God's pleasure. The moment that you were born into the world, God was there as an unseen witness, smiling at your birth. He wanted you alive, and your arrival gave Him great pleasure. God did not NEED to create you, but He CHOSE to create you for His own enjoyment. You exist for His benefit, His glory, His purpose and His delight. The smile of God is the goal of your life. God smiles when we love Him supremely, trust Him completely, obey Him wholeheartedly, praise and thank Him continually and when we use our abilities. In fact, God enjoys watching EVERY detail of your life, whether you are working, playing, resting or eating. Every human activity, except sin, can be done for God's pleasure IF you do it with an attitude of praise.

The fourth thing that you need to know is that the HEART of worship is SURRENDER. "Surrender" is an unpopular word, disliked almost as much as the word "submission". It implies losing, and no one wants to be a loser. In today's competitive culture we are taught to never give up and never give in, so we don't hear much about surrendering. But surrendering to God is the heart of worship. It is the natural response to God's amazing love and mercy. We give ourselves to Him, NOT OUT OF FEAR OR DUTY, but in LOVE, because He first loved us. True worship (bringing God pleasure) happens when you give yourself completely to God. There are three barriers that block our total surrender to God: fear, pride and confusion.

The fifth thing that you need to know is that God wants to be your best friend!! Our relationship with God has many different aspects: God is our Creator and Maker, Lord and Master, Judge, Redeemer, Father, Savior and much more. But the most shocking truth is this: Almighty God wants to be your Friend! But you are as close to God as you choose to be. Like any friendship, you must work at developing your friendship with God. It won't happen by accident. It takes desire, time and energy. If you want a deeper, more intimate connection with God you must learn to honestly share your feelings with Him, trust Him when He asks you to do something, learn to care about what He cares about, and desire His friendship more than anything else.

The sixth thing that you need to know is that God wants ALL of you. God doesn't want part of your life. He asks for ALL your heart, ALL your soul, ALL your mind and ALL your strength. God is not interested in halfhearted commitment, partial obedience, and the leftovers of your time and money. He desires your full devotion, not little bits of your life.

The seventh thing that you need to know is that God deserves your best. He shaped you for a purpose, and He expects you to make the most of what you have been given. He doesn't want you to worry about or covet abilities that you don't have. Instead, he wants you to focus on talents He has given to you."

These are just some of the reasons WHY Christians CHOOSE to rely on God vs. themselves. I have found that, by living my life completely through God's direction, I am fufilled, at peace and happy because I know that what God wants for me will be best for me. I also know that without God, I have nothing. Every breath, ablility, talent, pleasure, and blessing were all given to me by Him and for that, I am eternally humbled and grateful. Again, I am not out to convert you or change your mind on how you view Christianity, but I did want you to know WHY Christians decide to rely on God and not themselves. :)

Christianity is another way for priests to bone young boys. Instead of Christianity change it to Micheal Jackson.

Christianity is another way for priests to bone young boys. Instead of Christianity change it to Micheal Jackson.



I think this qualifies as trolling...

Its about faith

Specifically a doctrine or organization of faith around a deity and his human form or “son” and the requirement that faith in the son is the only path of salvation

In the end it is just another religion with its own set of beliefs, like other religions it has similarities and differences and seems to borrow activities and events and mythology from other faiths (such as Easter and Santa clause) and portray them as its own or relating them to a faith event (such as Jesus’ death and resurrection or birth)

In the end it is but another faith in this wide ocean of possibilities

Reliance on oneself is very limited. How many times have you said that you'll stop doing this, or you'll start doing this, and end up not stopping or not doing it? Why do you invest and put money in the bank and not dig a hole and stash it there? Did you build this computer yourself, or did you buy it from the rip-off Microsoft corp? Do you farm the food you eat, or draw the water you drink? Even if you do, you rely on the weather, on the type of soil, on the type of tool etc. Reliance on others is actually far closer than you think. However, relying on other people and on nature is sometimes disastrous. For example, you told your best friend a secret and relied on him/her to keep it a secret. But he/she couldn't resist and spread it. Or, you plant the best wheat in the best fields and offer the best fertiliser, but in the end a period of drought kills your crops nonetheless.

Christians, and other religious people, extend this reliance onto something that is deemed ever consistent and ominpotent.

Its about faith

Specifically a doctrine or organization of faith around a deity and his human form or “son” and the requirement that faith in the son is the only path of salvation

In the end it is just another religion with its own set of beliefs, like other religions it has similarities and differences and seems to borrow activities and events and mythology from other faiths (such as Easter and Santa clause) and portray them as its own or relating them to a faith event (such as Jesus’ death and resurrection or birth)

In the end it is but another faith in this wide ocean of possibilities

And it's the only faith in which:

a. an omnipotent deity claims to create you; and
b. despite His greatness chooses to humble Himself to save you.

I should have asked this question much earlier. To me it seems that a lot of you think Christianity is about gay-bashing and stopping people from having fun. What exactly do you think Christianity is corely about?

You said it. I feel it is out there to bash people like me so I can't have my full civil rights.

I'm glad to be atheist, and believe in strong democracy, and strong civil rights.

You said it. I feel it is out there to bash people like me so I can't have my full civil rights.

I'm glad to be atheist, and believe in strong democracy, and strong civil rights.
Yes...but the funny thing is, that's not what Christianity is about.

Unfortunately, Christianity in theory and Christianity in practice are two very, very different things.

On paper, Christianity is (for the most part) really wonderful. There's a lot about love, forgiveness, selflessness, charity, etc.

But once you get people involved, things start to go wrong. Living in a country where the various forms of Christianity are the dominant religion, I've been exposed to a lot of Christianity and a lot of Christians. In my experience, practiced Christianity is very far from the love that is written and preached of.

I find this very sad, because it could have been a great thing. Unfortunately, for so many people who claim to be Christians, it's just another excuse to justify their own personal cruelty.

Outdated belief systems in the face of rationality? Which aspect of it has been disproven?


Nothing has been offered to be disproved.

You say theres a god and I say your raving.
Neither claim offers any proof so neither needs to be disproven.


But gods have become unnecessary
we no longer worry whether the sun will come up in the morning or not
we don't use them to fill in the blanks we needed them for
to explain why sickness comes
why crops don't grow
etc etc

rationality has freed us from those superpowerful reflections of ourselves
unfortunately it has put us in the hands of ourselves superpowerful
but theres swings and roundabouts everywhere

And it's the only faith in which:

a. an omnipotent deity claims to create you; and
b. despite His greatness chooses to humble Himself to save you.
Thats nice

Though I would put a claims in the right after which and before the :
Though I am not entirly sure that it is acurate that it is the only religion that does such

Unfortunately, Christianity in theory and Christianity in practice are two very, very different things.

On paper, Christianity is (for the most part) really wonderful. There's a lot about love, forgiveness, selflessness, charity, etc.

But once you get people involved, things start to go wrong. Living in a country where the various forms of Christianity are the dominant religion, I've been exposed to a lot of Christianity and a lot of Christians. In my experience, practiced Christianity is very far from the love that is written and preached of.

I find this very sad, because it could have been a great thing. Unfortunately, for so many people who claim to be Christians, it's just another excuse to justify their own personal cruelty.
In other words, Christianity is a good thing! :)

Nothing has been offered to be disproved.

You say theres a god and I say your raving.
Neither claim offers any proof so neither needs to be disproven.


But gods have become unnecessary
we no longer worry whether the sun will come up in the morning or not
we don't use them to fill in the blanks we needed them for
to explain why sickness comes
why crops don't grow
etc etc

rationality has freed us from those superpowerful reflections of ourselves
unfortunately it has put us in the hands of ourselves superpowerful
but theres swings and roundabouts everywhere

At the same time, morals have declined a considerable level. Many people are depressed and technology doesn't cure that. The more rational we are, the colder we are too.

Thats nice

Though I would put a claims in the right after which and before the :
Though I am not entirly sure that it is acurate that it is the only religion that does such
I send you to find me another one. :D

I assure you. Mainstream religion with a book and a lot of testimonies to back it up, Christianity is the only one out there where LOVE is one of the most important cornerstones.

Yes...but the funny thing is, that's not what Christianity is about.

Actually that is what it is all about (hate the sin, love the sinner.. which is just BS). It is about bashing someone for doing something they cannot change. I'm gay, and christians will bash me for that. Well fcuk their contradictory beliefs. I'm going to be happy and go with who I love.

Morals have become better without the christian repression, and the advancement of civil rights. Morals will continue growing when there is more progression with these rights.

Actually that is what it is all about (hate the sin, love the sinner.. which is just BS). It is about bashing someone for doing something they cannot change. I'm gay, and christians will bash me for that. Well fcuk their contradictory beliefs. I'm going to be happy and go with who I love.
Many Christians have testified to changing what they initially cannot change, though, like being addicted to drugs

Morals have become better without the christian repression, and the advancement of civil rights. Morals will continue growing when there is more progression with these rights.

That's inherently contradictory. The freer you are, the less restrictions there are, and the less moral you become. Morality is about restrictions.

Many Christians have testified to changing what they initially cannot change, though, like being addicted to drugs

No. Me being gay is nothing like someone being addicted to drugs. It has nothing to do with that. I can't change the way I am.


That's inherently contradictory. The freer you are, the less restrictions there are, and the less moral you become. Morality is about restrictions.

No. That's not contradictory.

More civil rights mean less atrocities. I'm not less moral then you. In fact I have pretty strong morals, but I also believe in strong democratic rights. You really are a crazed fundamentalist.. I'm not going to listen to your restrictions that you want to place on me.

At the same time, morals have declined a considerable level. Many people are depressed and technology doesn't cure that. The more rational we are, the colder we are too.


Prove that

In other words, Christianity is a good thing! :)

Absolutely. In itself, Christianity is very admirable.

The same can't be said for most Christians, though, in my experience. I know that people are flawed and they can't be expected to be adhere to all the teachings all the time, but so many don't even try, which is what bugs me most.

Some people who claim to Christians seem to be so full of hate, that I sometimes wonder whether they even remember what the love Christ spoke of is, let alone how to feel it.

No. Me being gay is nothing like someone being addicted to drugs. It has nothing to do with that. I can't change the way I am.
Have you tried? Not a challenge, just a question. Have you tried becoming "not gay"?


No. That's not contradictory.

More civil rights mean less atrocities. I'm not less moral then you. In fact I have pretty strong morals, but I also believe in strong democratic rights. You really are a crazed fundamentalist.. I'm not going to listen to your restrictions that you want to place on me.
Similar, but not the same. Civil rights strictly apply for societies. Morals are mainly personal issues. Sometimes they intersect, sometimes not.

<snip>
That's inherently contradictory. The freer you are, the less restrictions there are, and the less moral you become. Morality is about restrictions.


Moral choices mean nothing if you don't actually have the choice

Morality is about making choices not about restrictions

To be truly moral you would have to have true freedom

Have you tried? Not a challenge, just a question. Have you tried becoming "not gay"?

You truly are intolerant. I'm not going to ever do that because it can't be done. That's a fact. And there is no reason to change something that isn't wrong. The APA and AMA agree with me.

Similar, but not the same. Civil rights strictly apply for societies. Morals are mainly personal issues. Sometimes they intersect, sometimes not.

What a typical christian fundie response. You cannot put your morals on others.

Absolutely. In itself, Christianity is very admirable.

The same can't be said for most Christians, though, in my experience. I know that people are flawed and they can't be expected to be adhere to all the teachings all the time, but so many don't even try, which is what bugs me most.

Some people who claim to Christians seem to be so full of hate, that I sometimes wonder whether they even remember what the love Christ spoke of is, let alone how to feel it.

That's true. It's very difficult to live up to God's standards. That's why there's Christianity anyway.

Have you tried? Not a challenge, just a question. Have you tried becoming "not gay"?


Similar, but not the same. Civil rights strictly apply for societies. Morals are mainly personal issues. Sometimes they intersect, sometimes not.


Hands up everyone who has really and truly with all their heart
struggling against their own innermost desires
how many of you have tried to not be hetero??

Mesatecala & Revasser:

Unfortunately, Christians aren't perfect and don't live up to the expectations that Jesus set forth. That is WHY He needed to die on a cross for us and be our Savior, so we CAN face God and be worthy of His kingdom. Is there politics in churches? YES! Do some Christians judge others who aren't Christian? YES! Why does this happen? Because the Christian body is FULL of VERY sinful people who are not saved because they are good, moral people, but ONLY because they CHOSE to accept Jesus as their Savior. And when you can tell me that in YOUR whole entire life you have NEVER made a mistake, then you can tell me that you have the right to judge Christianity based on the imperfect people that makes up the body of Christ. Christianity is NOT about being perfect. It is about recognizing that you aren't perfect and that you fall short in the eyes of God and accepting that Jesus is the bridge that reconciles us with God.

Prove that

Just one: http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news/s/132/132623_depression_increasing_among_children.html

Children are now very rich compared to just a generation ago, but yet depression is increasing.

Mesatecala & Revasser:

Unfortunately, Christians aren't perfect and don't live up to the expectations that Jesus set forth. That is WHY He needed to die on a cross for us and be our Savior, so we CAN face God and be worthy of His kingdom. Is there politics in churches? YES! Do some Christians judge others who aren't Christian? YES! Why does this happen? Because the Christian body is FULL of VERY sinful people who are not saved because they are good, moral people, but ONLY because they CHOSE to accept Jesus as their Savior. And when you can tell me that in YOUR whole entire life you have NEVER made a mistake, then you can tell me that you have the right to judge Christianity based on the imperfect people that makes up the body of Christ. Christianity is NOT about being perfect. It is about recognizing that you aren't perfect and that you fall short in the eye's of God and accepting that Jesus is the bridge that reconciles us with God.

I'm not going to accept jesus, god or anything... I'm sorry but I can be moral without it. And I can be a good person without the contradictory belief systems. I don't like your lecturing. I'm atheist and I'm not changing.

You truly are intolerant. I'm not going to ever do that because it can't be done. That's a fact. And there is no reason to change something that isn't wrong. The APA and AMA agree with me.
You didn't answer my question. Does that mean a "no"? If you didn't even try how do you know you won't be successful?


What a typical christian fundie response. You cannot put your morals on others.

Nobody is putting morals on you. I'm discussing about "general morality", not "moral issues". Wrong thread.

You didn't answer my question. Does that mean a "no"? If you didn't even try how do you know you won't be successful?

It just can't. And I don't need to try because I know I just am. You better stop with the bigoted remarks.

Also one thing.. you ever try stop being heterosexual?

Face it, sexuality isn't a choice.

Nobody is putting morals on you. I'm discussing about "general morality", not "moral issues". Wrong thread.

General morality is not directed by religious nazis.

I'm not going to accept jesus, god or anything... I'm sorry but I can be moral without it. And I can be a good person without the contradictory belief systems. I don't like your lecturing. I'm atheist and I'm not changing.

Yeah. One can be moral without religion, but one can't be moral according to God, as Christians see it. Live your life. We're here to discuss, not modify. DIS-CUSS.

Yeah. One can be moral without religion, but one can't be moral according to God, as Christians see it. Live your life. We're here to discuss, not modify. DIS-CUSS.

I can talk about whatever I want on here unless directed otherwise by the moderators. You cannot tell me what to say. As far as i'm concerned, atheists i know are far better people then any self-righteous christian I ever met.

It just can't. And I don't need to try because I know I just am. You better stop with the bigoted remarks.
Aren't you scientific? Does science say that you have to stop experimenting because you think you can't do it?[/quote]

Also one thing.. you ever try stop being heterosexual? Yeah. :p

General morality is not directed by religious nazis.

Nobody is directing morals. But even religious nazis can talk about morals. It's called DISCUSSING!! DISCUSS!

I can talk about whatever I want on here unless directed otherwise by the moderators. You cannot tell me what to say. As far as i'm concerned, atheists i know are far better people then any self-righteous christian I ever met.

Yes, but what you're talking about isn't what the thread is about. It makes it difficult to respond and conduct conversation. It's like you talking in support of gay rights when somebody talks of animal rights.

Define "better".

Mesatecala:

And I never asked you to convert, did I? I will NEVER try to convert you. I will only tell you what I believe. What you take from what I say is up to you! And like I said, Christianity ISN'T about being moral and decent, it is about recognizing that without Jesus, we CANNOT be in heaven. A Christian doesn't EARN heaven by being a good little Christian. A Christian is given heaven as a gift because we ACCEPT that Jesus died on a cross as a substitution for our sinful selves. It is only by faith in Christ that a Christian gets to partake in heaven. :)

Aren't you scientific? Does science say that you have to stop experimenting because you think you can't do it?

You are contradicting yourself and being ridiculous. Sexuality is not changeable. It cannot be changed.


Nobody is directing morals. But even religious nazis can talk about morals. It's called DISCUSSING!! DISCUSS!

Stop your little ranting... first off, you don't direct me here. You don't tell me how to speak.

Yes, but what you're talking about isn't what the thread is about. It makes it difficult to respond and conduct conversation. It's like you talking in support of gay rights when somebody talks of animal rights.

Define "better".

Again, you aren't in a position to tell me what I can say or not. This isn't your thread anymore. This can branch off, respectively, in different fields. I'm not hijacking this thread. I'm simply stating that I do believe that christianity is mainly a tool for people to use for hatred.

Better people = Nicer, kinder... and more respectful of other individuals.

Just one: http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news/s/132/132623_depression_increasing_among_children.html

Children are now very rich compared to just a generation ago, but yet depression is increasing.


You just pointed me to a survey of some parents OPINIONS
that their children are under a lot of stress.

I suggest they are under rather a lot less stress then the average
devoutly christian saxon serf child was and they are probably a good
deal less depressed.
I suggest they are a deal less stressed than the boys and girls
growing up in London or Berlin in the 40's
I suggest that they are a great deal less stressed than the good christian
boys and girls of the 19th century who had the reasonable certainty
that they would get beaten at school for not knowing answers or for not understanding lessons.


You really do need to learn to tell the difference between what people
say and evidence.


And your final line seems to be that wealth causes depression
and I am not quite sure how that fits into the our little conversation
about religion vs rationality

You are contradicting yourself and being ridiculous. Sexuality is not changeable. It cannot be changed.
But you haven't tried. How would you know?



Stop your little ranting... first off, you don't direct me here. You don't tell me how to speak.
Bleh. I give up.

Mesatecala & Revasser:
<snippity!>


When did I ever say that I've never made a mistake? My life's been full of mistakes and will be full of many more. I accept that, and try to learn from and correct my mistakes and prevent them occuring again in future. I'm not always successful, of course, but I do my best.

And I certainly know that Christians don't live up to Christ's standards, but that's not the point. The point is that, if they claim that they are Christians, they should be TRYING to live up to those standards, even though they know they can't meet them. The thing is, they don't. Yes, some do. Some Christians try their very hardest to be the best possible people they can be, to follow Christ's teachings as closely as they are able and try to live up to the standards that he set.

The only problem is, in my experience, these people are in the minority. The vast majority of Christians I have personally met are complacement, stagnant individuals. They have stopped trying to emulate Christ, if they ever did. They just go to church every week, sit and listen to some man spout rhetoric at them, and go home and forget about their 'faith' until next Sunday, confident that that somehow makes them 'good people'. It's like they just do it out of habit, rather than true faith and belief.

This is what I find sad. Because there is so much wasted potential for good in Christianity.

But you haven't tried. How would you know?


Oh I have. When I was 15. It almost caused me to consider ending my life.

That is why I think people who think I could change should get some education in the facts.

so please don't question me again in my sexuality, ever.

Mesatecala:

And I never asked you to convert, did I? I will NEVER try to convert you. I will only tell you what I believe. What you take from what I say is up to you! And like I said, Christianity ISN'T about being moral and decent, it is about recognizing that without Jesus, we CANNOT be in heaven. A Christian doesn't EARN heaven by being a good little Christian. A Christian is given heaven as a gift because we ACCEPT that Jesus died on a cross as a substitution for our sinful selves. It is only by faith in Christ that a Christian gets to partake in heaven. :)


That is not every christians definition of christianity, its yours.
It isn't exactly mainstream.

I'm simply stating that I do believe that christianity is mainly a tool for people to use for hatred..
:( Don't think that. It's a religion of love and acceptance. I don't care what other Christians think or say or do, but I would just say, I completely accept your identity as a homosexual. Homosexuality doesn't mean much, really.

Better people = Nicer, kinder... and more respectful of other individuals.

True. Some claim to be Christian, but...sigh...

But again, the heart of Christianity is not how one acts, it's what one believes.

I should have asked this question much earlier. To me it seems that a lot of you think Christianity is about gay-bashing and stopping people from having fun. What exactly do you think Christianity is corely about?

Christianity, quite simply, is the belief that God arranged for a virgin woman to punch out a kid for no logical reason. Then the kid was declared to be King of Earth. Despite this lofty title, he grew to be a humble man. Became a carpenter. Hung out with a former prostitute. Taught people to respect eachother. Impressed people with feats of prestidigitation. Eventually, he pissed off the wrong people and they nailed him to a cross. Three days later, he returned from death just to prove that he could. Then he went to Heaven to be with his father.

Nowadays, we believe that Jesus said that anybody who believes that he is really the son of God will live forever after death just like him. Unless you're gay. Then you're fucked.

Some people believe that Jesus will return just before the world ends. Apparently, to beat the shit out of a few sinners before they die.

:D

:( Don't think that. It's a religion of love and acceptance. I don't care what other Christians think or say or do, but I would just say, I completely accept your identity as a homosexual. Homosexuality doesn't mean much, really.

Unfortunately you may think different, but the mainstream christians are not accepting of gay people. Homosexuality by the way does mean a lot to me because it is a part of me.

You just pointed me to a survey of some parents OPINIONS
that their children are under a lot of stress.

I suggest they are under rather a lot less stress then the average
devoutly christian saxon serf child was and they are probably a good
deal less depressed.
I suggest they are a deal less stressed than the boys and girls
growing up in London or Berlin in the 40's
I suggest that they are a great deal less stressed than the good christian
boys and girls of the 19th century who had the reasonable certainty
that they would get beaten at school for not knowing answers or for not understanding lessons.


You really do need to learn to tell the difference between what people
say and evidence.


And your final line seems to be that wealth causes depression
and I am not quite sure how that fits into the our little conversation
about religion vs rationality
What? Are opinions unimportant now? Human sciences is about opinions. -_-' Depression is increasing. I'd post you a Chinese link (I know Chinese better than English), but you won't understand.

Wealth is accumulated through rationality, don't you think?

Christianity, quite simply, is the belief that God arranged for a virgin woman to punch out a kid for no logical reason. Then the kid was declared to be King of Earth. Despite this lofty title, he grew to be a humble man. Became a carpenter. Hung out with a former prostitute. Taught people to respect eachother. Impressed people with feats of prestidigitation. Eventually, he pissed off the wrong people and they nailed him to a cross. Three days later, he returned from death just to prove that he could. Then he went to Heaven to be with his father.

Nowadays, we believe that Jesus said that anybody who believes that he is really the son of God will live forever after death just like him. Unless you're gay. Then you're fucked.

Some people believe that Jesus will return just before the world ends. Apparently, to beat the shit out of a few sinners before they die.

:D
YOU GOT IT! GREAT! :D

Unfortunately you may think different, but the mainstream christians are not accepting of gay people. Homosexuality by the way does mean a lot to me because it is a part of me.

Homosexuality doesn't obstruct people to become good citizens and loving, caring people, true.

But don't you agree that it's a kind of a trade off? For example, if you don't mind me quoting:

...the mainstream homosexuals are not accepting of Christians. Christianity by the way does mean a lot to me because it is a part of me.

Our positions are actually relatively the same, to be honest.

YOU GOT IT! GREAT! :D

You should hear my summary of Taoism. ;)

Melkor Unchained:

You talk about not liking Christianity because it tells you that your faith should be placed in something other than yourself. I will share with you WHY a Christian places their faith in God. I'm not asking you to convert or even to agree with me. But I think you should know WHY a Christian puts faith in God's will. The following ideas are all based on Christian doctrine, but are directly out of a book called, "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren. This is what life's purpose looks like through a Christian's eyes:

"The first thing that you need to know is that it's NOT about you. The purpose of you life is far greater than your own personal fufillment, your peace of mind, or even your happiness. It's far greater than your family, your career, or even your wildest dreams and amibitions. If you want to know why you were placed on this planet, you must begin with God. You were born BY His purpose and FOR His purpose.

The second thing that you<snip>

This is such utter horseshit. Probably why no one has decided to comment on this so far. For one, no single person could dictate how every INDIVIDUAL in a large religion would view that religion. Anyways, I do not believe in Heaven nor Hell, God or Satan. Who in their right mind could? Who would want to follow an egotistical, self-centered prick whose single pleasure is having his ass kissed? It's akin to following the chubby 8-yr old kid who demands that the 5-yr old kids do exactly as he says, when he says, or he'll hurt him. And then kills his little brother to make them believe. What kind of nonsense is that? Besides, if it's true, and all these psychopaths spouting Christian ravings are right, I think I would follow Satan anyways. At least that fucker would tell you what's what, you have no illusions about where you're going, and you can have total control over your own bloody life. Also, these people who say "God" has a "plan" for everyone, and that everyone follows his plan, is sickening. It would mean that God means for the heartache, the wars, the diseases, and all the other horrible things in the world are meant to be there, to happen. And here is where most Christians say "But those things happen because Satan influences them". In essence, they are saying Satan is as powerful, likely more powerful, than God. What a conundrum!!

Basically, it boils down simply. Most Christians tend to be idiots that cannot think for themselves, and must believe in some all-knowing magical man in the sky to make themselves feel better. It's like Santa Claus in the North Pole. The rest that call themselves "Christians" don't really believe the idiocy, just are too scared to go against the popular majority. Amen.

EDIT: Santa Claus rocks cause he brings me bunches of neat-o presents.

Homosexuality doesn't obstruct people to become good citizens and loving, caring people, true.

But don't you agree that it's a kind of a trade off? For example, if you don't mind me quoting:

...the mainstream homosexuals are not accepting of Christians. Christianity by the way does mean a lot to me because it is a part of me.

Our positions are actually relatively the same, to be honest.

I'm tired of your endless tirades of nonsense... no our positions are not the same at all. In fact I find your overbearing attitude personally insulting.

What? Are opinions unimportant now? Human sciences is about opinions. -_-' Depression is increasing. I'd post you a Chinese link (I know Chinese better than English), but you won't understand.

Wealth is accumulated through rationality, don't you think?


Hardly

The people who make coca cola are rich
the people who make drugs to treat leprosy arent

The people who play the stock market are rich
the people who teach children are not

Many "preachers" are very rich
people who analyze and study and tell
the world what is actually happening
usually aren't

The world is full of people who believe in a god
rationality isn't terribly well rewarded in that kind of environment

Opinions are not facts
If you are trying to present proof
then it cannot be opinion.

It seems to be a problem you run into a lot

Mesatecala:

My family is predetermined to addictions. My grandmother died when I was five of alcoholism. On the second last hospital trip she took, the doctors told her that if she landed herself in the hosptal again, she would not come out. And that is EXACTLY what happened. My brother has overcome a serious drug addiction in the last two years. During his recovery, he even spent some time in the mental ward because he was so messed up. And I have even felt the pull of having an addictive personality. The medical field has PROVEN that addictive personalities ARE hereditary. So does that mean that God WANTS me to DRINK myself to death? Since my grandma, myself and my brother were all BORN this way, it means that I SHOULD be DRINKING myself silly because God MADE me this way, right? In fact, it means that He should be HAPPY if I don't deny myself a life of alcoholism, right? But I don't. I fight the urge to BE addictive because I have a WONDERFUL life and I know that God wants to USE me for AMAZING things!! I believe that my addictive personality is something that He gave me to challenge me in my OBEDIENCE to Him. Life is a test and life is a trust. :)

You should hear my summary of Taoism. ;)
Yes please! Seriously. :p

I'm tired of your endless tirades of nonsense... no our positions are not the same at all. In fact I find your overbearing attitude personally insulting.

*sighs*

You take things too personally.

Mesatecala:

My family is predetermined to addictions. My grandmother died when I was five of alcoholism. On the second last hospital trip she took, the doctors told her that if she landed herself in the hosptal again, she would not come out. And that is EXACTLY what happened. My brother has overcome a serious drug addiction in the last two years. During his recovery, he even spent some time in the mental ward because he was so messed up. And I have even felt the pull of having an addictive personality. The medical field has PROVEN that addictive personalities ARE hereditary. So does that mean that God WANTS me to DRINK myself to death? Since my grandma, myself and my brother were all BORN this way, it means that I SHOULD be DRINKING myself silly because God MADE me this way, right? In fact, it means that He should be HAPPY if I don't deny myself a life of alcoholism, right? But I don't. I fight the urge to BE addictive because I have a WONDERFUL life and I know that God wants to USE me for AMAZING things!! I believe that my addictive personality is something that He gave me to challenge me in my OBEDIENCE to Him. Life is a test and life is a trust. :)

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Please get over the fact that my sexuality is not an addiction. It is who I am. i'm not going to change the way I am for the satisfaction of others. Sexuality is ingrained, and is not bad either way. Homosexuality is not comparable to drinking or drug addiction.

Hardly

The people who make coca cola are rich
the people who make drugs to treat leprosy arent

The people who play the stock market are rich
the people who teach children are not

Many "preachers" are very rich
people who analyze and study and tell
the world what is actually happening
usually aren't

The world is full of people who believe in a god
rationality isn't terribly well rewarded in that kind of environment

Opinions are not facts
If you are trying to present proof
then it cannot be opinion.

It seems to be a problem you run into a lot

I don't see how the first half of the post and my previous post actually tell something that goes along with the thread...heh. I forgot. :p

Opinions are more important than facts sometimes, and provide solid proof for investigations in human sciences such as religion.

Mesatecala:

<snip>
But I don't. I fight the urge to BE addictive because I have a WONDERFUL life and I know that God wants to USE me for AMAZING things!! I believe that my addictive personality is something that He gave me to challenge me in my OBEDIENCE to Him. Life is a test and life is a trust. :)


You don't think perhaps this whole religion thing is just another
demonstration of the tendency to addiction that you describe in your family

I don't see how the first half of the post and my previous post actually tell something that goes along with the thread...heh. I forgot. :p

Opinions are more important than facts sometimes, and provide solid proof for investigations in human sciences such as religion.


Now either you are just being plain stupid or your grasp of english is letting you down

Opinions cannot provide proof of any kind
even wibbly wobbly non solid proof.

You were trying to claim that rationality leads to depression
whereas religion leads to something other than torture , murder , wars
and that smug self satisified air that only the truly evil can have.


Be happy in your irrationality but discussing anything with you is clearly pointless.

Yes please! Seriously. :p

Summary of Taoism: Be nice. :)

Now either you are just being plain stupid or your grasp of english is letting you down

Opinions cannot provide proof of any kind
even wibbly wobbly non solid proof.

You were trying to claim that rationality leads to depression
whereas religion leads to something other than torture , murder , wars
and that smug self satisified air that only the truly evil can have.


Be happy in your irrationality but discussing anything with you is clearly pointless.
You must have never taken a history or economics course before. Opinion counts more than the truth at times. Shall I explain?

Drop the other bit. I'm getting confused at so many topics. Heh.

...the mainstream homosexuals are not accepting of Christians. Christianity by the way does mean a lot to me because it is a part of me.

Our positions are actually relatively the same, to be honest.

I would agree that many homosexuals aren't very accepting of Christians. But then, after the long years of persecution that we've had to deal with from those claiming to follow Christ, I tend to think that the widespread mistrust is justifiable. I'm sure early Christians weren't very accepting of the Romans, either.

Summary of Taoism: Be nice. :)
*claps*

Oh good good! Go on! Go on!

*wonders when Lunatic Goofballs will wake up from his lunatic goofballing and learn that DB is being condescending*

Heh. :D

I would agree that many homosexuals aren't very accepting of Christians. But then, after the long years of persecution that we've had to deal with from those claiming to follow Christ, I tend to think that the widespread mistrust is justifiable. I'm sure early Christians weren't very accepting of the Romans, either.

That's totally right. I'm not accepting of christians because I find their beliefs very demeaning of me.

I would agree that many homosexuals aren't very accepting of Christians. But then, after the long years of persecution that we've had to deal with from those claiming to follow Christ, I tend to think that the widespread mistrust is justifiable. I'm sure early Christians weren't very accepting of the Romans, either.

It's definitely justifiable. But it's not fair and people have to start waking up from animosity. I personally have nothing against gays. I don't approve of the act, but it doesn't mean that I'll go up to a gay and smash them or something. That's more of a sin than homosexuality is. :rolleyes: Mesa takes my words very seriously - too seriously at times. Am I supposed to be happy? ;)

Revasser:

And as a Christian, I sincerely apologise for any Christian who hasn't tried lived up to the standards of Christ. Every day I truly try to be as much like Jesus as I can be, but Jesus was without sin. I can never live up to that, so I just do the best that I can! Please don't judge Christianity based on some awful examples of Christianity. I totally agree with you that some Christians TOTALLY miss the mark when it comes to what Christianity is REALLY all about...and that IS sad. But you will be happy to know that some churches are trying to change those attitudes. The church that I go to quite regularly talks about being like Christ and how take those attitudes in to our world and live them out. And the pastors at my church have NO problem pointing the finger at us and themselves and telling us that being a judgemental, stagnant Christian is NOT what God wants. They encourage us to be people that are after God's own heart in every way!! :)

It's definitely justifiable. But it's not fair and people have to start waking up from animosity. I personally have nothing against gays. I don't approve of the act, but it doesn't mean that I'll go up to a gay and smash them or something. That's more of a sin than homosexuality is. :rolleyes: Mesa takes my words very seriously - too seriously at times. Am I supposed to be happy? ;)

Wake up from animosity? We are constantly discriminated against by many fundamentalist christians, and it causes backlash against christianity. And the homosexuality is a sin remark make the backlash against christianity stronger. Also when refering to a gay guy.. say "gay guy".. not just "a gay". That's a bit demeaning.

Relative Power:

....OR maybe I'm into the whole "religion thing" because I'm studying to become a Youth Pastor and it's my calling....:)

Relative Power:

....OR maybe I'm into the whole "religion thing" because I'm studying to become a Youth Pastor and it's my calling....:)

*applauds*

But be careful where this forum leads you. It's easy to get into an argument and sin. I bet I've done it already. :mp5:

*claps*

Oh good good! Go on! Go on!

*wonders when Lunatic Goofballs will wake up from his lunatic goofballing and learn that DB is being condescending*

Heh. :D

*probably never*

Want to hear my summary of Mormonism? :)

*probably never*

Want to hear my summary of Mormonism? :)
Come on. Bring it on.

Dragons Bay:

I am very careful to write on here only what God leads me to write. I have nothing to prove to any person on here about my faith! It is what it is and they can take it or leave it!! :)

Revasser:

And as a Christian, I sincerely apologise for any Christian who hasn't tried lived up to the standards of Christ. Every day I truly try to be as much like Jesus as I can be, but Jesus was without sin. I can never live up to that, so I just do the best that I can! Please don't judge Christianity based on some awful examples of Christianity. I totally agree with you that some Christians TOTALLY miss the mark when it comes to what Christianity is REALLY all about...and that IS sad. But you will be happy to know that some churches are trying to change those attitudes. The church that I go to quite regularly talks about being like Christ and how take those attitudes in to our world and live them out. And the pastors at my church have NO problem pointing the finger at us and themselves and telling us that being a judgemental, stagnant Christian is NOT what God wants. They encourage us to be people that are after God's own heart in every way!! :)

No need to apologise for the actions of others, Woodsprites, but I appreciate the sentiment.

It's heartening to know that there are Christians out there making a real effort to emulate Christ. It's good that you recognise you could never live up Christ. No one can. But what matters is that you try, even knowing that total success isn't within reach.

It sounds like you go to a good church too, which always helps. It's great to hear you're studying to become a Youth Pastor. We could do with more clergy with your kind of attitude, quite honestly. I hope it works out well for you.

I certainly don't judge all of Christianity by the 'bad eggs in the basket', though sometimes it's very difficult not to. I'm ashamed to say that when I meet someone new, who I know beforehand is a Christian or who tells me themselves that they are, my immediate reaction is one of wariness and mistrust. I'm happy, however, to say that on a number of occasions my inital judgement has been proven wrong and I've gained some good friends. I've found that true Christians can be very good friends to have, actually. Loyal, kind, forgiving and generous.

It seems that you and DB are what I would call Christians, rather than "Christians".

Let me begin by saying I'm a strong believer in religion. Now, let me say I have no belief in God.

While one can be moral without religion, religion helps provide a basis for one's moral compass. Educated by Xaverian Brothers, School Sisters of Notre Dame, and Jesuits I can honestly say Christianity, at least Roman Catholic Christiantiy is not centered around gay-bashing, but about love of all people. My high school, as well as other religious high schools, require hours spent working for the embetterment of the community - this can be anything from volunteering at the church carnival, working at Habitat for Humanity, or working at a soup kitchen. Many current Protestant denominations teach homosexuality is sinful in itself, where as Catholicism teaches homosexual acts are sinful.

Catholic priests also tend to lecture their flock on kindness and humility so much so in fact I know a bigotted Protestant who said that Catholics are the stupidest people on Earth for listening to a priest lecturing them (He once attended a Catholic service while he was in Ireland). I don't like him too much (He tries to convert family members to his Cult). Unlike many Protestant denominations, Catholics acknowledge the importance of good works.

As a note, I think religion or some kind of belief, even if there is no God, is important. Not so one will delude himself in zeal to convert infidels and bash those who are different, but because religion is beneficial to the soul. Most believers I know, tend to be kind, carefree, jolly, willing to help, and easy-going. They are this way, because they believe someone is looking out for them. That's why they out live us agnostics and athiests. That is,all the believers i know who aren't over-zealous cynical religious nut jobs obsessed with damnation, are very good people.

Present day Catholicism tends to be about forgiveness, humility, tolerance, love of your neighbor, and most importantly at its core, as with most religions: "Treat others as you want to be treated", aside from belief in a God and salvation.







A side note:
I will cry if any Protestant says Catholicism is not Christianity, when in fact it is the oldest form of Christianity (along with Orthodoxy). And no we do not worship statues. No we do not worship saints; we never have, but rather looked to them as examples. We ask them to pray for us, but we do not pray to them.

Revasser:

Thank you for the kind words!! :) I totally know what you mean by "Christians" vs. Christians. It just makes my heart ache when I see someone judge Christianity based on the "bad eggs"...it makes my heart glad to know that there are people out there like you who don't!! That ROCKS!! :)

Revasser:

Thank you for the kind words!! :) I totally know what you mean by "Christians" vs. Christians. It just makes my heart ache when I see someone judge Christianity based on the "bad eggs"...it makes my heart glad to know that there are people out there like you who don't!! That ROCKS!! :)

Why, thank you. ^.^

Having been judged myself because a particular group within the very broad spiritual category that I fall under does some pretty wacky things, I try my level best not to do the same to others. Like I said, I don't always succeed, but I do my best.

maybe I'm unique, but i find myself completely different to all of you on both sides of this argument

i am a regular church goer, yet i am also a cynical fifteen year old. i started off going to church mainly coz my parents made me, but the around 11 or 12 i was given the choice. i chose to continue going mostly because some of my best friends were at the chruch. a lot of them were in the same boat, they just came for the socialising. but as we came, week after week, month after month, having a great time, i learned that christianity is, above all, about fellowship and friendship. again, maybe our church is unique, but we have people from all different ethnicities, sexualities (yes, we have gays at our church and they ARE accepted for who and what they are, just like evryone else) ages, variation galore. there is no gay bashing, no warmongering, nothing. our church IS all about helping people... maybe its different in america and thats whats got you all so hyped up, but christians are just a sort of background helper here.

thats my two cents worth

Bashan:

First off, let me say that Catholics and Protestants ARE BOTH Christians...but I don't agree with your analysis on the Protestant churches. I am Protestant and I was never taught that "homosexuality" is a sin in itself, but lust is a sin (whether you are gay or straight) and committing a homosexual act is a sin. So as long as a homosexual person does not lust or commit sexual acts, then they are doing NOTHING sinful. And I was also taught that premarital sex and adultery are the same sin as homosexuality. So someone who has sex before they are married is NO MORE SINFUL than someone who is homosexual. Sin, is sin, is sin. It doesn't matter HOW you color it. Protestant churches acknowledge the importance of good works, but not as a way to get to heaven. It states in the Bible that we CAN'T get to heaven through good works....only by grace. We do good works BECAUSE we love God and wish to PLEASE and OBEY Him. Not because we are afraid that we are going to hell if we don't. Good works are the fruit of faith in God. So one cannot truly have a heart for God WITHOUT doing good works. But Protestants are taught that good works WITHOUT faith is NOT what God wants from His people. God wants His people to, first and foremost, love Him above all things, and secondly, to love their neighbors as they would love themselves. Once those two things are in place, good works just naturally follows. Please don't judge ALL Protestants based on ONE Protestant that left a bad taste in your mouth. That would be like me judging Catholicism based on a "bad seed" in the Catholic faith.

Revasser:

I think that doing your best is all that anyone can expect or ask from you. We ALL fall short of the perfection mark at times. That is what the human condition is all about...not being perfect and learning from your imperfections and mistakes!! :)

First off, let me say that Catholics and Protestants ARE BOTH Christians...but I don't agree with your analysis on the Protestant churches. I am Protestant and I was never taught that "homosexuality" is a sin in itself, but lust is a sin (whether you are gay or straight) and committing a homosexual act is a sin. So as long as a homosexual person does not lust or commit sexual acts, then they are doing NOTHING sinful. And I was also taught that premarital sex and adultery are the same sin as homosexuality. So someone who has sex before they are married is NO MORE SINFUL than someone who is homosexual. Sin, is sin, is sin. It doesn't matter HOW you color it. Protestant churches acknowledge the importance of good works, but not as a way to get to heaven. It states in the Bible that we CAN'T get to heaven through good works....only by grace. We do good works BECAUSE we love God and wish to PLEASE and OBEY Him. Not because we are afraid that we are going to hell if we don't. Good works are the fruit of faith in God. So one cannot truly have a heart for God WITHOUT doing good works. But Protestants are taught that good works WITHOUT faith is NOT what God wants from His people. God wants His people to, first and foremost, love Him above all things, and secondly, to love their neighbors as they would love themselves. Once those two things are in place, good works just naturally follows. Please don't judge ALL Protestants based on ONE Protestant that left a bad taste in your mouth. That would be like me judging Catholicism based on a "bad seed" in the Catholic faith.

Yeah, my evaluation of Protestantism is unfair, though many Protestant denominations do in fact teach that being homosexual is a sin. The Catholic church (I disagree with this) also teaches that masturbation and most forms of contraception are wrong.

In regards to good works, I'd like to know what passage says that or at least alludes to that. Also, I cite Calvinism as an example which teaches that only those predestined are saved, overlooking both faith and good works. Calvin taught that those who were upright, faithful, and moral were more likely to be saved and that, as you said, it pleases God, but it neither of those was a real indication of their fate. You can tell if someone is elect if they are fertile and successful, which would later encourage a Social Darwinist attitude among entrepenaurs. I believe at the heart of all religion is an explanation of natural law, virtue, and love - too me, many Protestant denominations trivialize that aspect.

Also I never said that Protestants weren't Christians. I only added that sidenote, in fear another Protestant would tell me Catholicism is not Christianity. I know two in person who have told me that and have seen it written literally hundreds of times.

Protestant churches acknowledge the importance of good works, but not as a way to get to heaven. It states in the Bible that we CAN'T get to heaven through good works....only by grace.

Sprites, I gotta ask ya.

Why do you suppose that is.

If someone has worked thier entire life doing good deeds, or helping out as many people as he can, by doing charitable deeds...

Why wouldnt this be enough?

I know....the bible...and what it says..but that doesnt make sense to me.

If a person works his, or her whole life by giving of themselves, and asks for no reward....isnt this the very core of what Christians are trying to acheive?

Take Ghandi for instance....Im sure I dont have to get into what he did, or how he lived his life...but he wasnt a christian.
How could it be that in the end, when judged, Ghandi would be sent to Hell, for not believing in Jesus?

The only answer I can come up with, in my overly-cynical mind, is that when Christianity was being started, they needed the Fire and Brimstone and YOU'LL GO TO HELL IF YOU DONT JOIN! thing, to gain converts to a weak and small faith.
Otherwise...wouldnt it make more sense to tell people that by living a good life, is how you earn your reward in the afterlife?

BackwoodsSquatches:

As always, know that anything that I say is not about trying to convert you, but that I'm just trying to answer your questions. God is NOT looking for who can be the most sinless person and for who can be the most moral person. God wants our hearts to be seeking Him above ALL things. God knows that we can NEVER be perfect like Him. God wants us to realise that WITHOUT Him we have nothing and He wants us to surrender our will to Him. Once you have surrendered your will to God, everything else falls into place and you WANT to please Him. God knows that we CANNOT live up to His standards because we are sinful beings, so He humbled Himself because He LOVES us so much and He died on a cross in order to pay for all of mankind's sins. I don't go to a church that preaches fire and brimstone and I never have because fire and brimstone is an unbalanced view of Christianity. The gospel teaches that Jesus has paid for my sins, and I don't have to DO anything to earn that, I just have to accept Him as my Lord and give my life to Him because the issue of my salvation was DONE for me by Him on the cross. In Christianity, in order for the good works to mean ANYTHING to God they have to be done out of FAITH in Him. So, someone could be the most moral person in the world, but if they don't have faith, the good works they do are meaningless to God. God wants everything that we do on this earth to glorify His name and who He is. He created us for Him, not the other way around. Below, I have copied and pasted what I wrote in a previous post in this thread. The following ideas are all based on Christian doctrine, but are directly out of a book called, "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren.

"The first thing that you need to know is that it's NOT about you. The purpose of you life is far greater than your own personal fufillment, your peace of mind, or even your happiness. It's far greater than your family, your career, or even your wildest dreams and amibitions. If you want to know why you were placed on this planet, you must begin with God. You were born BY His purpose and FOR His purpose.

The second thing that you need to know is that it's all for God! The ultimate goal of the universe is to show the glory of God. It is the reason for everything that exists, including you. God made it ALL for His glory! Without God's glory, there would be nothing.

The third thing that you need to know is that you were planned for God's pleasure. The moment that you were born into the world, God was there as an unseen witness, smiling at your birth. He wanted you alive, and your arrival gave Him great pleasure. God did not NEED to create you, but He CHOSE to create you for His own enjoyment. You exist for His benefit, His glory, His purpose and His delight. The smile of God is the goal of your life. God smiles when we love Him supremely, trust Him completely, obey Him wholeheartedly, praise and thank Him continually and when we use our abilities. In fact, God enjoys watching EVERY detail of your life, whether you are working, playing, resting or eating. Every human activity, except sin, can be done for God's pleasure IF you do it with an attitude of praise.

The fourth thing that you need to know is that the HEART of worship is SURRENDER. "Surrender" is an unpopular word, disliked almost as much as the word "submission". It implies losing, and no one wants to be a loser. In today's competitive culture we are taught to never give up and never give in, so we don't hear much about surrendering. But surrendering to God is the heart of worship. It is the natural response to God's amazing love and mercy. We give ourselves to Him, NOT OUT OF FEAR OR DUTY, but in LOVE, because He first loved us. True worship (bringing God pleasure) happens when you give yourself completely to God. There are three barriers that block our total surrender to God: fear, pride and confusion.

The fifth thing that you need to know is that God wants to be your best friend!! Our relationship with God has many different aspects: God is our Creator and Maker, Lord and Master, Judge, Redeemer, Father, Savior and much more. But the most shocking truth is this: Almighty God wants to be your Friend! But you are as close to God as you choose to be. Like any friendship, you must work at developing your friendship with God. It won't happen by accident. It takes desire, time and energy. If you want a deeper, more intimate connection with God you must learn to honestly share your feelings with Him, trust Him when He asks you to do something, learn to care about what He cares about, and desire His friendship more than anything else.

The sixth thing that you need to know is that God wants ALL of you. God doesn't want part of your life. He asks for ALL your heart, ALL your soul, ALL your mind and ALL your strength. God is not interested in halfhearted commitment, partial obedience, and the leftovers of your time and money. He desires your full devotion, not little bits of your life.

The seventh thing that you need to know is that God deserves your best. He shaped you for a purpose, and He expects you to make the most of what you have been given. He doesn't want you to worry about or covet abilities that you don't have. Instead, he wants you to focus on talents He has given to you."

These are just some of the reasons WHY Christians CHOOSE to rely on God vs. themselves....and how good works and faith fit together. I have found that, by living my life completely through God's direction, I am fufilled, at peace and happy because I know that what God wants for me will be best for me and for His kingdom. I also know that without God, I have nothing. Every breath, ablility, talent, pleasure, and blessing were all given to me by Him and for that, I am eternally humbled and grateful. I don't know how else I can explain these concepts to you....but you know me, and you know that I will try my best to answer any question that you have. And, yes, in Christianity, the fact is (no matter how good of a person you might be), if you DON'T accept Jesus Christ as your Savior you are not saved.

BackwoodsSquatches:

As always, know that anything that I say is not about trying to convert you, but that I'm just trying to answer your questions.

Understood...and agreed.
In return, please dont mistake me for attacking your religion..such is never my intent, but merely, as always, to understand the mind of the free-thinking Christian.



"The first thing that you need to know is that it's NOT about you. The purpose of you life is far greater than your own personal fufillment, your peace of mind, or even your happiness. It's far greater than your family, your career, or even your wildest dreams and amibitions. If you want to know why you were placed on this planet, you must begin with God. You were born BY His purpose and FOR His purpose.

Ok..If I were a Christian..I could agree with this, its fairly simple.

The second thing that you need to know is that it's all for God


The third thing that you need to know is that you were planned for God's pleasure.


The fourth thing that you need to know is that the HEART of worship is SURRENDER. "

The problem im seeing is that we tend to be programmed to think that God is the embodiment for all things pure, and good.
Doing so, it seems unnatural to think that God could be so selfish.
I mean..look at the quotes above...ME ME ME!!


The fifth thing that you need to know is that God wants to be your best friend!! .

Ive had some pretty selfish friends before...they werent much fun to hang out with either.


I guess, from what I know of Christs teachings, that living a virtuous life, wherein a person would selflessly give...of themselves..is paramount to divinty.
Thus, It seems strange that God would require so much attention..or simply allow anyone who does the appropriate amount of kowtowing..into Heaven.

If someone as rotten to the core, as say, Hitler, were to have repented before he shot himself....this means he would go to Heaven?

It doesnt make sense....

Ok..bear with me as I take you on an existential hypothetical situation...(heehee)

Lets say Jesus heard of a man, in the next country over, who spent his life healing the sick, feeding the poor, and generally being an all-around nice guy..

Lets say that the Big J, approved of the stories of this guy, and went to visit him.

Upon arriving in the good guy's villiage...Jesus discovers that the man has died...but up to his dying moment..lived as good as a life, as he knew how.

Would Christ have no choice but to know this man was condemned to Hell becuase he had never heard of Jesus?

You see where Im going with this?

It doesnt make sense to me that a person who leads a virtuous life, would not get into Heaven, simply for never having been "saved".

It seems kinda contradictory to the "big picture", ya know?

Bashan:

I found this write up on faith vs. works and it cites several passages and how the Protestant church interprets them:

"Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"

This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?

The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard to reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). In reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all. The only point of disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their life is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.

Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Galatians 2:16: "That we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Above, I have written out a couple of the passages referring to salvation by grace, but I am a little tired, or I would've written out the others....so please forgive me!! Remember, the Bible doesn't contradict itself, so it is important to use the WHOLE Bible when interpreting what a passage means and the context in which it was meant! :)

BackwoodsSquatches:

Why is it strange to think that God would be selfish? Man was created in God's image. Man by nature is selfish...thus why the fall happened. Adam and Eve, by nature, wanted more than what they had. That is why Eve was tempted so easily. Yes, if Hitler made peace with his Maker before his death and asked Jesus Christ to be his Savior, he would theoretically go to heaven, but ONLY God can JUDGE another's ETERNAL FATE. And yes, a perfectly moral and selfless human being who hasn't accepted Jesus Christ as His Savior would theoretically not be saved, but again, ONLY God can JUDGE another's ETERNAL FATE. But in both of these cases, Scripture backs these theories up. You see, I don't worry myself with the what if's....I know where I stand with God and I can't speak for anyone else....I know that Jesus is my Savior and I live only for Him....and I know that no matter how badly I fall, God will ALWAYS love me and as long as I always remember that Jesus is my Savior, my salvation is already DONE and there is nothing for me to DO besides LOVE God and follow Him. The good works will ALWAYS follow someone who is following God. As far as the big picture, you are viewing it from your eyes NOT God's eyes. God only wants those who WANT Him and LOVE Him to be with Him in Heaven. If you were God, would you want someone who spit in your face to live alongside you for all of eternity? God wants us out of our free will because He simply wants to be CHOSEN over all of the other things that people can and do worship (money, sex, themselves, technology, other gods, and the list goes on and on)....because he CHOSE and LOVED us first.

BackwoodsSquatches:

Why is it strange to think that God would be selfish? Man was created in God's image. Man by nature is selfish...thus why the fall happened. Adam and Eve, by nature, wanted more than what they had. That is why Eve was tempted so easily. Yes, if Hitler made peace with his Maker before his death and asked Jesus Christ to be his Savior, he would theoretically go to heaven, but ONLY God can JUDGE another's ETERNAL FATE. And yes, a perfectly moral and selfless human being who hasn't accepted Jesus Christ as His Savior would theoretically not be saved, but again, ONLY God can JUDGE another's ETERNAL FATE. But in both of these cases, Scripture backs these theories up. You see, I don't worry myself with the what if's....I know where I stand with God and I can't speak for anyone else....I know that Jesus is my Savior and I live only for Him....and I know that no matter how badly I fall, God will ALWAYS love me and as long as I always remember that Jesus is my Savior, my salvation is already DONE and there is nothing for me to DO besides LOVE God and follow Him. The good works will ALWAYS follow someone who is following God. As far as the big picture, you are viewing it from your eyes NOT God's eyes. God only wants those who WANT Him and LOVE Him to be with Him in Heaven. If you were God, would you want someone who spit in your face to live alongside you for all of eternity? God wants us out of our free will because He simply wants to be CHOSEN over all of the other things that people can and do worship (money, sex, themselves, technology, other gods, and the list goes on and on)....because he CHOSE and LOVED us first.

...because he CHOSE and LOVED us first

You realize chistianity is one of the newest religions around, do you ?

Can somebody please explain to me why jezus is the son of god ? Just because he convinced a bunch of numbnuts that he was, doesnt make it true, neither does a fictional resurection.

BackwoodsSquatches:

Please know that I love chatting with you and that I never think that you are attacking Christianity!! And I will be happy to answer any question that you have to the best of my abilities, but I have to go to sleep now. It is almost 5:00am here and I haven't been to bed yet.....so I'm a little tired....but I promise that if you have other questions I will get back to you once I have slept!! :) :) It has been fun, but I think that chatting with you always is! Have a good one!! :)

Hobabwe:

I will be happy to answer any questions you have....as long as you have a real desire to know the answers. If you just want to debate, I'm not the one to talk to....because I'm not here to convince you of something that you have already made your mind up on. :)

Is there a definite link between belief in christianity and a lack of education in believers, christianity seems to blossom in regions where there ia a poor education system, Is science and education the reason for the decline of religion in western europe

BackwoodsSquatches:

Please know that I love chatting with you and that I never think that you are attacking Christianity!! And I will be happy to answer any question that you have to the best of my abilities, but I have to go to sleep now. It is almost 5:00am here and I haven't been to bed yet.....so I'm a little tired....but I promise that if you have other questions I will get back to you once I have slept!! :) :) It has been fun, but I think that chatting with you always is! Have a good one!! :)

Sentiment returned.

Good Night.

[snip]
This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?
[snip]

I disagree, this is not the most important question. It isnt even remotely important. If you have faith you will have works too. Like Paul says, works is evidence of faith. Therefore the question is moot because a Christian will display both of these things and need not worry about which is going to lead to his salvation.

Christianity is a religion based around the teachings of Jesus Christ, and the scriptures/teachings of his religion, being Judaism. Christians take the rules and stories from Jewish scriptures, ie. the Pentateuch, and take it many steps farther with the word of Christ. Jesus taught people to love their nieghbor, to be gracious and humble, and to know the difference between right and wrong. In this way, it shares a lot of traits with Buddhism. Anyways, the church does not hate homosexuals, as some say, because it's important that Christians love and accept everyone, no matter who they are, or what they do. The gay marriage issue, that's something way more complicated, and the absence of women in the clergy? I don't recall that ever being a rule. You could say the Vatican has paraphrased the bible a bit, adding their own ideas in the process, no matter how unfair they appear. That's basically what I was taught growing up Catholic, though I'm really more of a liberal in my views.

By the way, sorry if someone's already said what I've said. I don't have time to read the whole thread. Heh. That rhymes... :D

Hobabwe:

I will be happy to answer any questions you have....as long as you have a real desire to know the answers. If you just want to debate, I'm not the one to talk to....because I'm not here to convince you of something that you have already made your mind up on. :)

Ive been trying to find out why christians beleive that jezus is actually the son of god, and the only answer ive ever gotten is: "because !", not satisfactory at all.

Ive been trying to find out why christians beleive that jezus is actually the son of god, and the only answer ive ever gotten is: "because !", not satisfactory at all.


Let me field this one for you.

Being a Christian, means believing the New Testament.

In those texts..several references by Jesus, are made to God, calling him "My Father".

Ergo.....to follow Christs teachings...means to accept that Jesus was the Son of God.

now...as an Athiest..I think he simply could have been meaning "I am the son of God..as all of us are sons and daughters of God."

Christianity is not doing what 96% of 'Christians' do.

I should have asked this question much earlier. To me it seems that a lot of you think Christianity is about gay-bashing and stopping people from having fun. What exactly do you think Christianity is corely about?
The core of Christianity is denial, primarily the denial of human mortality. Denial of personal responsibility, physical reality, and individual human rights are other important founding principles.

The core of Christianity is denial, primarily the denial of human mortality. Denial of personal responsibility, physical reality, and individual human rights are other important founding principles.

You could put up some good arguments for arguing that Christianity has to do with denial of human mortality, however on the rest of these things you are way off mark.

When it comes to personal responsibility it is very difficult to put up an argument that Christianity denies this. Christianity teaches that ultimately not only are you responsible for everything you do but you are responsible for where you spend eternity after you die.

As for physical reality, this doesnt even make sense since Christians live and work in the same world as you and are fully aware of the realities of the world.

On individual human rights I dont even see how its possible to argue for or against this since Christianity has no teachings on the subject other than on the basic right to live and not be hurt by others.

You could put up some good arguments for arguing that Christianity has to do with denial of human mortality, however on the rest of these things you are way off mark.

When it comes to personal responsibility it is very difficult to put up an argument that Christianity denies this. Christianity teaches that ultimately not only are you responsible for everything you do but you are responsible for where you spend eternity after you die.

As for physical reality, this doesnt even make sense since Christians live and work in the same world as you and are fully aware of the realities of the world.

On individual human rights I dont even see how its possible to argue for or against this since Christianity has no teachings on the subject other than on the basic right to live and not be hurt by others.

I think he means this:

If I stab you in the kidneys with a fork...then make a sincere apology to God, and ask my sins to be forgiven.....

Its all well and good and done with.

Responsibility tends to take a backseat in Christianity.

I think he means this:

If I stab you in the kidneys with a fork...then make a sincere apology to God, and ask my sins to be forgiven.....

Its all well and good and done with.

Responsibility tends to take a backseat in Christianity.

Umm...no. Its all well and good and done with between you and God but you still have to answer to the Earthly authorities. The bible teaches us to follow the laws of the land. In the case of the people of Israel who were their own rulers for a time, God gave them a law to follow and it did not even remotely resemble what you describe. So, if that is what he meant, he still has no point.

I should have asked this question much earlier. To me it seems that a lot of you think Christianity is about gay-bashing and stopping people from having fun. What exactly do you think Christianity is corely about?
The only reason people bring these sorts of thing up so much is because these are the controversial elements. Loving your neighbour is very nice, but in this day and age it doesn't make front-page news.

Love, though it's under-taught. That's an ex-Catholic speaking.

Umm...no. Its all well and good and done with between you and God but you still have to answer to the Earthly authorities. The bible teaches us to follow the laws of the land. In the case of the people of Israel who were their own rulers for a time, God gave them a law to follow and it did not even remotely resemble what you describe. So, if that is what he meant, he still has no point.


Now your being stubborn.

Yes the bible does say to obey the law of the land, but in the same breath, it says that God is the higher authority.

Again..going back to the kidney stabbing...

By doing this, and begging gods mercy..I am absolving myself of having stuck you in the kidneys.

However..in your eyes...you would still be pretty pissed off.

Webster’s Dictionary defines a Christian as “a person professing belief in Jesus as the Christ or in the religion based on the teaching of Jesus.”

Let me field this one for you.

Being a Christian, means believing the New Testament.

In those texts..several references by Jesus, are made to God, calling him "My Father".

Ergo.....to follow Christs teachings...means to accept that Jesus was the Son of God.

now...as an Athiest..I think he simply could have been meaning "I am the son of God..as all of us are sons and daughters of God."

I know this, but this answer doesnt answer why jezus is the son of god. After all, claiming your the son of god, doesnt make it true in any way shape of form.

By doing this, and begging gods mercy..I am absolving myself of having stuck you in the kidneys.


No, not at all. That's not what the bible says. It says you have to obey the laws of the land. When God gave some laws for his people, they did not involve what you describe, they involved punishment. Being forgiven for your sins has nothing to do with escaping punishment. The same law even applies with God, God will forgive you but he will allow you to face the consequences of your actions. You forgive your kids when they misbehave but that doesnt mean they get to escape punishment.

It’s about accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, acknowledging that he died for our sins so we shouldn’t have to, and rose three says later, demonstrating the triumph over death.

In your opinion.

And, we ALL know the value of an opinion...

No, not at all. That's not what the bible says. It says you have to obey the laws of the land. When God gave some laws for his people, they did not involve what you describe, they involved punishment. Being forgiven for your sins has nothing to do with escaping punishment. The same law even applies with God, God will forgive you but he will allow you to face the consequences of your actions. You forgive your kids when they misbehave but that doesnt mean they get to escape punishment.

Sanctuary?

You must have never taken a history or economics course before. Opinion counts more than the truth at times. Shall I explain?

Drop the other bit. I'm getting confused at so many topics. Heh.

You'll have to excuse me if someone else has responeded to this, but i couldn't go on without saying something! I have studied History and Economics and am currently a Religious Studies undergraduate student, so I know a bit about this stuff. I don't know who taught you history, but the facts are the essential qualities of learning history. You study the dates and events, you see who did what leading up to the events, you learn figures and statistics and hopefully come away with an indepth understanding of why things happened the way they did. When you study economics it is very similar, you look at stats and figures and make comparisons, there is very little room for opinion and well, when it comes to religion, unless you're studying theology under a Christian tutor, then you absolutley have to leave opinion at the door.

Both at school and at degree level the study of religion focuses on the history of religion, the rituals and places of the religion in question. It looks at the various opinions of people within and without a religion, yes, but that is in order to develop an appreciation for the complexities, it is not more important than the cold hard facts. Opinion is important but cannot be considered proof of anything other than the opinion of the person!

In a reasonable debate one must consider evidence, opinion can serve to flavour the evidence of course, but to establish proof one must avoid opinion. That is just the way debate works!

Too bad that's not what Christianity is about. It's what Christianity according to itself should be about, but it isn't what it's about.

It is exactly what it is about.

I understand Christianity, and have nothing but contempt for it. Its teachings are utterly irreconcilable with anything that I would call "morality."

That said, I think the reaction to Christianity being "all about" gay bashing and that sort of thing is kind of a knee-jerk reaction. For every one person you have quoting Leviticus, it seems, you have twenty five leaping down his throat.

As far as stopping people from having fun, I am regrettably obligated to point out that you guys dug your own grave with that one; Puritans are an excellent example. Catholics aren't terribly far behind.

And what do you call "morality" that loving God and each other is utterly irreconcilable?

And what do you call "morality" that loving God and each other is utterly irreconcilable?

Wow, you must have read the SUPER-Abridged version.

You truly are intolerant. I'm not going to ever do that because it can't be done. That's a fact. And there is no reason to change something that isn't wrong. The APA and AMA agree with me.



What a typical christian fundie response. You cannot put your morals on others.

It seems you are quite full of anger. He wasn't being intolerant, he asked you a question. Not the right question, granted, but there wasn't anything intolerant about it. How do you know it can't be done? I'm not saying it can, but you seem very closed minded in your response.

He didn't put his morals on others. He said they were purely personal although sometimes they overlap. You're very quick to throw out your hatred of Christians even where it isn't appropriate. "Typical christian response"? That, in itself, sounds rather intolerant.

Sprites, I gotta ask ya.

Why do you suppose that is.

If someone has worked thier entire life doing good deeds, or helping out as many people as he can, by doing charitable deeds...

Why wouldnt this be enough?

I know....the bible...and what it says..but that doesnt make sense to me.

If a person works his, or her whole life by giving of themselves, and asks for no reward....isnt this the very core of what Christians are trying to acheive?

Take Ghandi for instance....Im sure I dont have to get into what he did, or how he lived his life...but he wasnt a christian.
How could it be that in the end, when judged, Ghandi would be sent to Hell, for not believing in Jesus?

The only answer I can come up with, in my overly-cynical mind, is that when Christianity was being started, they needed the Fire and Brimstone and YOU'LL GO TO HELL IF YOU DONT JOIN! thing, to gain converts to a weak and small faith.
Otherwise...wouldnt it make more sense to tell people that by living a good life, is how you earn your reward in the afterlife?

Intent is as important as what you do. If you're simply writing a check for the tax break and because you think it will put you on the fast track to heaven, then it's an empty gesture. If you're writing the same check because your primary concern is helping others and in a spirit of community and a love of mankind, it's a different matter.

Mesatecala & Revasser:

Unfortunately, Christians aren't perfect and don't live up to the expectations that Jesus set forth. That is WHY He needed to die on a cross for us and be our Savior, so we CAN face God and be worthy of His kingdom. Is there politics in churches? YES! Do some Christians judge others who aren't Christian? YES! Why does this happen? Because the Christian body is FULL of VERY sinful people who are not saved because they are good, moral people, but ONLY because they CHOSE to accept Jesus as their Savior. And when you can tell me that in YOUR whole entire life you have NEVER made a mistake, then you can tell me that you have the right to judge Christianity based on the imperfect people that makes up the body of Christ. Christianity is NOT about being perfect. It is about recognizing that you aren't perfect and that you fall short in the eyes of God and accepting that Jesus is the bridge that reconciles us with God.

AMEN! :)

Is there a definite link between belief in christianity and a lack of education in believers, christianity seems to blossom in regions where there ia a poor education system, Is science and education the reason for the decline of religion in western europe

Oh, I don't know. I've a bachelor's degree in literature, a master's in secondary education, and nearly enough credits for a second master's degree and I'm a Christian.

Is there a link between being a non-Christian and generalizations about how backward Christians are?

I'm not going to accept jesus, god or anything... I'm sorry but I can be moral without it. And I can be a good person without the contradictory belief systems. I don't like your lecturing. I'm atheist and I'm not changing.

Then you've made up your mind. It is apparantly closed, so what further purpose do you still hold in this conversation? You don't like "lecturing" (although its a discussion not a lecture), You're an atheist and you're not changing. So you have no interest in Christianity, then why do you have an interest in a discussion about Christianity? I've noticed you post in several Christianity based discussion but usually with bile and hatred. Why? If you have no interest, why waste your time? Why spread your hatred of something to others? Rather hypocritical considering the reasons you've given for hating Christians don't you think?

It just can't. And I don't need to try because I know I just am. You better stop with the bigoted remarks.

Also one thing.. you ever try stop being heterosexual?

Face it, sexuality isn't a choice.



General morality is not directed by religious nazis.

What bigoted remarks??? :confused:

You are a very sad individual, and your sexual orientation has nothing to do with that statement. :(

Oh, I don't know. I've a bachelor's degree in literature, a master's in secondary education, and nearly enough credits for a second master's degree and I'm a Christian.

Not to be unkind here, but there really is a satistical correlation between religiosity and lack of education. In America, people who are very Christian tend to be less education than people who are not very Christian, and people who are very educated tend not to be nearly as religious as people who are not so educated. These trends have been shown many, many times over, by many different studies.

Now, this does NOT mean that one causes the other, and it certainly doesn't mean that being Christian or strongly religious makes a person stupid (or that only stupid people are Christian or religious).

It could mean that people who don't have a lot of education still are driven to find answers, and religion is an accessable means for them to find answers.

It could mean that people who are very religious tend to not be as interested in pursuing higher education, though they would be just as capable as less religious people if they decided that they wanted to get that education.

It could mean that very religious people find current academic climates unwelcoming to them, and are turned off by conflicts that have nothing to do with their ability or individual drive to learn.

It could be that religious people feel they have other obligations that must come first, and choose to sacrifice much of their individual education to fulfill other goals.

It could be none of these, all of these, some of these, or plenty of other things. Correlations are annoying that way.

And, of course, there will exceptions to any correlation that's not 100%...there are plenty of non-religious idiots out there, and plenty of very well-educated religious people.


Is there a link between being a non-Christian and generalizations about how backward Christians are?
Probably. There's a link between being a non-racist and generalizations about how backward racists are, so I would imagine something of that sort exists in regard to Christianity.

You are contradicting yourself and being ridiculous. Sexuality is not changeable. It cannot be changed.



Stop your little ranting... first off, you don't direct me here. You don't tell me how to speak.

anyone else getting the idea Mesatecala is just trolling at this point? Where did he rant? Where did he try to direct you? Where did he tell you how to speak?

Again, you aren't in a position to tell me what I can say or not. This isn't your thread anymore. This can branch off, respectively, in different fields. I'm not hijacking this thread. I'm simply stating that I do believe that christianity is mainly a tool for people to use for hatred.

Better people = Nicer, kinder... and more respectful of other individuals.

Apparantly being gay is a tool for hatred as much as Christianity eh? You see how silly that sounds?

you're finding offense and hatred in Dragon's posts where there isn't any. yet you're spewing quite a lot of hatred yourself. Gay or not, I'm of the opinion you are a first class hypocrit.

Then you've made up your mind. It is apparantly closed, so what further purpose do you still hold in this conversation?

So... what are you saying... There's no point talking to someone if you hold no hope of scoring a conversion?

A little shallow, perhaps?

Oh I have. When I was 15. It almost caused me to consider ending my life.

That is why I think people who think I could change should get some education in the facts.

so please don't question me again in my sexuality, ever.

um, it was you that brought sexuality into the discussion. Before you mentioned it, no one was discussing it.

That is not every christians definition of christianity, its yours.
It isn't exactly mainstream.

and what, exactly, does "mainstream" mean? What he said is EXACTLY what Christianity is about.

Ok, Christianity has some positive messages that are applicable to all people regardless of faith, like love thy neighbour. The problem with Christianity is the organised Church. It is the human interpretation and application that has casued problems. But the misinterpretation that has happened throughout history has done so because the Bible can be misinterpreted in those ways.

I'm speaking specifically of the wars and mass murders committed in God's name, the slaughter of anyone of a different faith (Inquisition, hello!). There's the promotion of unsafe sex by Catholics, which is totally socially unresponsible, then the issue of going to hell for having sex or Heaven forbid, falling in love with someone of the same gender. It's an intolerant religion, organised in a manner to oppress and rule people, to convert and destroy the myriad of faiths that are much older and more accepting of individuality as well as those that teach selflessness and harmony with all things. It has grown out of the desire by powerful men to dominate women and all other people.

I have to say that confession has always struck me as a cop out. Basically a Christian can behave any way they like, just as long as they are sorry at the end, they still get to go to heaven. Yet someone who is good all of their life who isn't Christian gets to burn in hell for all eternity. I'm sorry but that doesn't wash well with me. Obviously the non-Christian would not wish to go to heaven, they are striving for some other goal, Nirvana perhaps, or simply the desire to do good deeds with no afterlife in mind. But if God is real, if heaven and hell turn out to be ultimately true, I pity the selfless person burning and shake my head at a God who would take into heaven for eternal bliss for being a bad person all their life. There is something very wrong with that belief, totally screwed and unrealistic.

There's this issue of surrendering to God's will. I find that so repugnant. Many rational and passionate people alike have a problem with the idea of loving and respecting a selfish deity who uses human beings for his own amusement (which is what that great long passage someone posted sounds like to me).

Morality is equally applicable outside of religion, not killing or stealing for example. All religions teach those things because they are fundementally good for society and healthy individuals. Religions can help to provide a framework of further morality yes, they can be very positive for those that utilise them in a positive way.

Unfortunately, Christianity has so many mixed messages, so much confusion and sub-sects that it makes for a nonsensical bunch of ramblings. It has ceased to be a tool for moral behaviour long ago and is merely a tool of oppression. Many Christians take it to a good place, but many don't and the organised churches certainly don't.

When you get right down to it, other people wouldn't be able to pick Christianity to pieces the way they can if it were a more stable and coherent religion to begin with.

This is such utter horseshit. Probably why no one has decided to comment on this so far. For one, no single person could dictate how every INDIVIDUAL in a large religion would view that religion. Anyways, I do not believe in Heaven nor Hell, God or Satan. Who in their right mind could? Who would want to follow an egotistical, self-centered prick whose single pleasure is having his ass kissed? It's akin to following the chubby 8-yr old kid who demands that the 5-yr old kids do exactly as he says, when he says, or he'll hurt him. And then kills his little brother to make them believe. What kind of nonsense is that? Besides, if it's true, and all these psychopaths spouting Christian ravings are right, I think I would follow Satan anyways. At least that fucker would tell you what's what, you have no illusions about where you're going, and you can have total control over your own bloody life. Also, these people who say "God" has a "plan" for everyone, and that everyone follows his plan, is sickening. It would mean that God means for the heartache, the wars, the diseases, and all the other horrible things in the world are meant to be there, to happen. And here is where most Christians say "But those things happen because Satan influences them". In essence, they are saying Satan is as powerful, likely more powerful, than God. What a conundrum!!

Basically, it boils down simply. Most Christians tend to be idiots that cannot think for themselves, and must believe in some all-knowing magical man in the sky to make themselves feel better. It's like Santa Claus in the North Pole. The rest that call themselves "Christians" don't really believe the idiocy, just are too scared to go against the popular majority. Amen.

EDIT: Santa Claus rocks cause he brings me bunches of neat-o presents.

:rolleyes:

I'm tired of your endless tirades of nonsense... no our positions are not the same at all. In fact I find your overbearing attitude personally insulting.


:rolleyes: The only one doing any insulting so far is you.

Which ONE is the most important, specifically, in your opinion?

"Jesus said unto him, 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.'"

Matthew 22:37-40.

Now either you are just being plain stupid or your grasp of english is letting you down

Opinions cannot provide proof of any kind
even wibbly wobbly non solid proof.

You were trying to claim that rationality leads to depression
whereas religion leads to something other than torture , murder , wars
and that smug self satisified air that only the truly evil can have.


Be happy in your irrationality but discussing anything with you is clearly pointless.

sorry, I don't remember any of those statements in previous posts. I think you just made all of that up. No one claimed that rationality leads to depression and I don't remember a single word about torture, murder or true evil.

So... what are you saying... There's no point talking to someone if you hold no hope of scoring a conversion?

A little shallow, perhaps?
Seriously. I talk to religious people even if I have no hope that they will "covert" to non-superstition. I don't need to add a mark to my belt every time I have a discussion with somebody, and even the most close-minded individuals can offer insights of their own.

Ive been trying to find out why christians beleive that jezus is actually the son of god, and the only answer ive ever gotten is: "because !", not satisfactory at all.

If you read Lee Strobel's "A Case for Christ", you can find the answers to this specifically. Strobel was an atheist until his wife decided one day to become Christian. He set out to interview scholars in an attempt to disprove Christ. He ended up becomming a minister. The book goes into great depth on why we believe Jesus was the messiah.

The core of Christianity is denial, primarily the denial of human mortality. Denial of personal responsibility, physical reality, and individual human rights are other important founding principles.

no sir. not at all.

I think he means this:

If I stab you in the kidneys with a fork...then make a sincere apology to God, and ask my sins to be forgiven.....

Its all well and good and done with.

Responsibility tends to take a backseat in Christianity.

if you stabbed someone in the kidneys with a fork and made the sincere apology to God, you would be forgiven. However, you would still face the consequences here on Earth for your actions. There would be consequences, but not damnation. See the difference?

In your opinion.

And, we ALL know the value of an opinion...

um, no. This isn't an opinion. That was basically the simple core behind Christianity.

If you read Lee Strobel's "A Case for Christ", you can find the answers to this specifically. Strobel was an atheist until his wife decided one day to become Christian. He set out to interview scholars in an attempt to disprove Christ. He ended up becomming a minister. The book goes into great depth on why we believe Jesus was the messiah.
I found that book really disappointing, actually, since it didn't cover some very important issues with the "divinity" of Christ. The author doesn't even cover some of what I consider the basics for a solid book on this topic, like the specifics on the Jesus Seminar; the Jesus seminar contends that non-testament sources like the Gospel of Thomas hold important information about the person named Jesus, and that Jesus probably never rose from the dead, among other things. But author's discussion of what he identifies as "rebuttal evidence" doesn't even include a summary of that evidence...sloppy, very sloppy. He mentions the Jesus Seminar, but makes no effort to actually present the "rebuttal evidence" at all, and that dramatically weakens any claim he might have to a decent case for his version of Jesus Christ.

The book also completely neglects the fact that the Jesus myth was largely plagerized from the myth of Horus, and that virtually every single major argument made in "The Case for Christ" could be applied with equal success to "The Case for Horus." I'd say that's a major blindspot.

It's a good book to read if you want to know where believers are coming from, but a horrid book if you are looking for solid information about Jesus, the historical nature of the Christ, or the objective influences on the evolution of Christianity.

no sir. not at all.
Well gee, you've convinced me of my error...thank you for that insight. :P

no sir. not at all.

Ma'am.

So... what are you saying... There's no point talking to someone if you hold no hope of scoring a conversion?

A little shallow, perhaps?

not at all. But the poster was no longer interested in discussing, only filling the conversation with anger (where it was unwarranted) and hatred (where it was also unwarranted).

um, no. This isn't an opinion. That was basically the simple core behind Christianity.

In your opinion.

Seriously. I talk to religious people even if I have no hope that they will "covert" to non-superstition. I don't need to add a mark to my belt every time I have a discussion with somebody, and even the most close-minded individuals can offer insights of their own.

One of my good friends is a Jehovah's Witness. The fact that he is religious, and I am a godless heathen has done nothing to stop us talking to each other... in fact, we have both learned a great deal from the friendship... both about what others believe... and about what we each believe, ourselves.

I found that book really disappointing, actually, since it didn't cover some very important issues with the "divinity" of Christ. The author doesn't even cover some of what I consider the basics for a solid book on this topic, like the specifics on the Jesus Seminar; the Jesus seminar contends that non-testament sources like the Gospel of Thomas hold important information about the person named Jesus, and that Jesus probably never rose from the dead, among other things. But author's discussion of what he identifies as "rebuttal evidence" doesn't even include a summary of that evidence...sloppy, very sloppy. He mentions the Jesus Seminar, but makes no effort to actually present the "rebuttal evidence" at all, and that dramatically weakens any claim he might have to a decent case for his version of Jesus Christ.

The book also completely neglects the fact that the Jesus myth was largely plagerized from the myth of Horus, and that virtually every single major argument made in "The Case for Christ" could be applied with equal success to "The Case for Horus." I'd say that's a major blindspot.

It's a good book to read if you want to know where believers are coming from, but a horrid book if you are looking for solid information about Jesus, the historical nature of the Christ, or the objective influences on the evolution of Christianity.

You are correct. And the reason I mentioned it was because I thought you were looking to know where believers are coming from. The book is also good for another thing though, and that is it has a wealth of information in the bibliography. Each of the men he interviewed have written many books and papers each, some of which will go much further into detail on the various subjects. The book is a good place to start, although I agree it is hardly adequate in and of itself.

If you read Lee Strobel's "A Case for Christ", you can find the answers to this specifically. Strobel was an atheist until his wife decided one day to become Christian. He set out to interview scholars in an attempt to disprove Christ. He ended up becomming a minister. The book goes into great depth on why we believe Jesus was the messiah.

In my opinion, Strobel is a liar, and a charlatan.

I don't believe that ANYONE ever deliberately 'set out to disprove Christ'... and the fact that this fraudster claims such, is just to sop the Christian market.

It seems to me - there was a leaning in him already, and that is why he embarked on his 'quest to discredit'. He just lacks the honesty, with his readers AND with himself, to admit it.

Ma'am.

Forgive me, with all the discussions we've had, I had no idea. My apologies.

In your opinion.

No ma'am. It may be my opinion that Christianity is true, but what Christianity IS isn't a matter of opinion.

One of my good friends is a Jehovah's Witness. The fact that he is religious, and I am a godless heathen has done nothing to stop us talking to each other... in fact, we have both learned a great deal from the friendship... both about what others believe... and about what we each believe, ourselves.
I can't make the same claim, to be honest, since I don't have any friends that I know consider themselves "very religious." This is not due to any conscious effort on my part, but simply appears to be a factor of personality; people with the personality traits that gel with me tend to not be fervently religious, and vice versa, so we just don't end up close buddies. I have no innate objection to having religious friends, it simply doesn't seem to happen for me.

On the other hand, I have a great many friends who may very well be religious and I don't know about it...I don't ask people about their god-belief any more than I ask them questions about their feelings on the existence of pixies, so unless they bring up the subject I am probably not going to learn about their religious orientation.

No ma'am. It may be my opinion that Christianity is true, but what Christianity IS isn't a matter of opinion.
Wow. I guess that the whole "Protestants v. Catholics" deal that the Irish have had going for a few generations is just an illusion, then?

Wow. I guess that the whole "Protestants v. Catholics" deal that the Irish have had going for a few generations is just an illusion, then?

There is no spoon..... :rolleyes:

One of my good friends is a Jehovah's Witness. The fact that he is religious, and I am a godless heathen has done nothing to stop us talking to each other... in fact, we have both learned a great deal from the friendship... both about what others believe... and about what we each believe, ourselves.

You have taken what I said to the other poster, cut it in half, and lost the context of how I said it. The point I was trying to make is the poster was refusing to hear what the other poster was saying, was putting words in the other person's mouth that were never said nor implied, was adamant about staying closed minded and not discussing anything, and was generally just creating offenses in the discussion that just weren't there. In my opinion, just trolling.

In my opinion, Strobel is a liar, and a charlatan.

I don't believe that ANYONE ever deliberately 'set out to disprove Christ'... and the fact that this fraudster claims such, is just to sop the Christian market.

It seems to me - there was a leaning in him already, and that is why he embarked on his 'quest to discredit'. He just lacks the honesty, with his readers AND with himself, to admit it.

ok, but what are you basing this opinion on? Sure he had a leaning already, he grew up with parents who went to church. However, he lost his own faith in his teenage years when evolution was introduced to him in school. That has happened to MANY people over the years. What makes you skeptical of that?

not at all. But the poster was no longer interested in discussing, only filling the conversation with anger (where it was unwarranted) and hatred (where it was also unwarranted).

Which is nothing to do with what you said.

"Then you've made up your mind. It is apparantly closed, so what further purpose do you still hold in this conversation?"

Seems to more closely match my understanding that you were 'giving up' on talking to this one, because you saw you weren't going to score a conversion.

How else do you explain that wording?

There is no spoon..... :rolleyes:
Hey, don't knock it...just like that kid in the Matrix, they can warp and bend reality however they like by simply repeating "There is no debate...there is no debate..."

Wow. I guess that the whole "Protestants v. Catholics" deal that the Irish have had going for a few generations is just an illusion, then?

they battle over what is and isn't important, how the bible is to be interpretted, and many other details. The core of Christianity is simple and agreed on by all forms of Christians. Follow the teaching of Christ, love God with all your heart, love each other as yourself, and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. That is the fundamental core and is not a matter of opinion.

Personally I think it's just believing in God, Heaven, Hell and that Jesus died for us. Just accept Jesus and you will be saved. That's how I see it.

Which is nothing to do with what you said.

"Then you've made up your mind. It is apparantly closed, so what further purpose do you still hold in this conversation?"

Seems to more closely match my understanding that you were 'giving up' on talking to this one, because you saw you weren't going to score a conversion.

How else do you explain that wording?

I'm not out for conversions. That isn't my job. I don't "score" conversions nor does anyone else in my opinion. Conversion is God's job, not mine. I was "giving up" because the poster was, in my opinion, trolling. Read the REST of my wording.

ok, but what are you basing this opinion on? Sure he had a leaning already, he grew up with parents who went to church. However, he lost his own faith in his teenage years when evolution was introduced to him in school. That has happened to MANY people over the years. What makes you skeptical of that?
Because the majority of people who claim to have been atheists that converted were actually never atheists to begin with. They were religious people who didn't actively go to church for a while, or religious people who noticed some serious questions about their faith, or religious persons who rejected one particular sect, or any number of things that have nothing to do with actually being an atheist.

In the case of Lee Strobel, he reported that his years as an atheist were spent sinfully, wallowing in substance abuse, theft, and "carousing." He claims that he had no moral compass, no sense of right and wrong, which is the halmark of a pseudo-atheist; he was reared religious, and never let go of the notion that religion is required for morality. He never rejected faith, because he persisted along the same faith-based misconceptions even while he claimed he was "atheist." He never developed the moral compass of an actual non-believer, he was simply an out-of-control fellow who used anything he needed to justify his misbehavior. His return to Christianity was born from guilt, lack of self-control, and a need for supernatural parenting due to his then-proven inability to take care of himself without God.

Furthermore, his "Case for Christ" has been thoroughly debunked, yet he claims that he was so satisfied by it that it convinced him to renounce atheism...any person, of any religious orientation, who would be satisfied with work of that level is clearly going into it with their mind already made up. The C for C is not a convincing work, frankly, so it is clear that Strobel WANTED to be convinced long before the project was completed.

they battle over what is and isn't important, how the bible is to be interpretted, and many other details. The core of Christianity is simple and agreed on by all forms of Christians. Follow the teaching of Christ, love God with all your heart, love each other as yourself, and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. That is the fundamental core and is not a matter of opinion.
Odd, that so many Christians don't use your definition. I suppose you must be 100% right, though, since you seem so durn sure of yourself.

No ma'am. It may be my opinion that Christianity is true, but what Christianity IS isn't a matter of opinion.
:D

That's too priceless.

I'm a 'sir'... SHE was a Ma'am....

(Yay, a serious thread with a much needed levity injection).

As to what Christianity 'is'... it certainly IS a matter of opinion.

When I was a Christian, Christianity was about following the example of Jesus, which I still do (to a large extent) despite my more recent godless tendencies. To MANY others, Christianity is going to church. Or believing in 'god'. Or being Christian because your parents were. Or loving your neighbour.

There are as many definitions of 'what Christian is' as there are Christians.

Chris·ti·an·i·ty Pronunciation Key (krsch-n-t, krst-)
n.

1. The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Christians as a group; Christendom.
3. The state or fact of being a Christian.
4. pl. Chris·ti·an·i·ties A particular form or sect of the Christian religion: the Christianities of antiquity.

see also: Roman Catholic Church (http://www.catholic.org/)

I'm not out for conversions. That isn't my job. I don't "score" conversions nor does anyone else in my opinion. Conversion is God's job, not mine. I was "giving up" because the poster was, in my opinion, trolling. Read the REST of my wording.

You don't consider yourself a Christian, then?

Surely, if you do, conversion is your ONLY job?

As to what Christianity 'is'... it certainly IS a matter of opinion.

When I was a Christian, Christianity was about following the example of Jesus, which I still do (to a large extent) despite my more recent godless tendencies. To MANY others, Christianity is going to church. Or believing in 'god'. Or being Christian because your parents were. Or loving your neighbour.

There are as many definitions of 'what Christian is' as there are Christians.
It's a lot like the definition of "love," in some ways.

Yes, there are certain things pretty much everybody agrees about "love." For instance, that it involves at least one living being (though some believe it could be directed at non-living entities and non-sentient beings), and that it can be an interactive state involving two or more beings. Love is generally agreed to be an emotion. Love is generally agreed to be a potentially powerful force/emotion, and is universally recognized as a force that can result in both positive and negative outcomes.

Similarly, pretty much everybody agrees that Christianity has something to do with Christ. It's got something to do with one particular God myth, and one particular book that talks a lot about that God myth. It's got Commandments in it that Christians are supposed to pay attention to. It's got some important figures that they are supposed to emmulate or avoid emmulating (though who those figures are will vary from sect to sect).

But once you get beyond the most general traits, both of these terms become hotly debated. To claim that the definition of Christianity is not in debate is as absurd as claiming there is no debate about the nature and definition of "love." There is, and probably always will be, because both religion and love are significantly subjective and thus are largely defined by whoever happens to be experiencing them...this means that the "definition" of either term will be as variable as the people participating in the experience of each state (Christianity or love), and no person can rightfully assert that he knows the REAL definition of either one.

Because the majority of people who claim to have been atheists that converted were actually never atheists to begin with. They were religious people who didn't actively go to church for a while, or religious people who noticed some serious questions about their faith, or religious persons who rejected one particular sect, or any number of things that have nothing to do with actually being an atheist.

You can't possibly know this. This is a major assumption on your part.

In the case of Lee Strobel, he reported that his years as an atheist were spent sinfully, wallowing in substance abuse, theft, and "carousing." He claims that he had no moral compass, no sense of right and wrong, which is the halmark of a pseudo-atheist; he was reared religious, and never let go of the notion that religion is required for morality. He never rejected faith, because he persisted along the same faith-based misconceptions even while he claimed he was "atheist." He never developed the moral compass of an actual non-believer, he was simply an out-of-control fellow who used anything he needed to justify his misbehavior. His return to Christianity was born from guilt, lack of self-control, and a need for supernatural parenting due to his then-proven inability to take care of himself without God.

Strobel claimed those things, true. He ALSO says Darwin is where he lost his faith. Learning about evolution removed his need for God, which has happened for many believers. His talk of the morality was "after-the-fact". I don't believe while he was enjoying himself during those years, he thought of his morality in that way at all. While he was drinking and carousing, I don't imagine morality was an issue for him. He was doing quite well for himself. He was the legal editor for the Chicago Tribune. He had a family and made a decent living. Until his wife decided to become a believer, I don't think he had a single problem with his life. I don't see how you can determine whether he was "truly atheist" by these things.

Furthermore, his "Case for Christ" has been thoroughly debunked, yet he claims that he was so satisfied by it that it convinced him to renounce atheism...any person, of any religious orientation, who would be satisfied with work of that level is clearly going into it with their mind already made up. The C for C is not a convincing work, frankly, so it is clear that Strobel WANTED to be convinced long before the project was completed.

I disagree with the debunking statement. However, perhaps he WAS convinced through his interviews. I'm quite sure the interviews he conducted lasted much longer and went into greater detail than what he wrote in his book. One interview he said lasted several hours. Maybe he gleened enough info to make his decision but failed to write it all down. I think the books are well written, but that's my opinion. If you don't think they are, that's ok too. But failing to write a convincing book is hardly basis for determining a man's faith, or lack there of.

ok, but what are you basing this opinion on? Sure he had a leaning already, he grew up with parents who went to church. However, he lost his own faith in his teenage years when evolution was introduced to him in school. That has happened to MANY people over the years. What makes you skeptical of that?

If he already had something of a conviction, then he was not the 'atheist' he claims to be.

I was a Christian... now, I'm a godless heathen. Do I utterly deny the possibility of God? No... but I don't 'believe it'.

Strobel obviously still 'believed' in god, regardless of his avowed persuasion... which is dishonest. If he HADN'T still believed, he would not have gone on this 'quest'.

Not to mention, of course, that most of those who change religions do NOT choose to write books about it... perhaps, the objectivity of the book should be questioned, no?

And, what is your 'evidence' for the claim that 'evolution in schools' has caused many conversions away from religion? I only WISH that were true.

You don't consider yourself a Christian, then?

Surely, if you do, conversion is your ONLY job?

absolutely not. Christians are not charged with converting non-believers. We are charged, however, with sharing His truth. Its my job, as a Christian, to tell people. What they do with what I tell them is between them and God.

Because the majority of people who claim to have been atheists that converted were actually never atheists to begin with. They were religious people who didn't actively go to church for a while, or religious people who noticed some serious questions about their faith, or religious persons who rejected one particular sect, or any number of things that have nothing to do with actually being an atheist.

In the case of Lee Strobel, he reported that his years as an atheist were spent sinfully, wallowing in substance abuse, theft, and "carousing." He claims that he had no moral compass, no sense of right and wrong, which is the halmark of a pseudo-atheist; he was reared religious, and never let go of the notion that religion is required for morality. He never rejected faith, because he persisted along the same faith-based misconceptions even while he claimed he was "atheist." He never developed the moral compass of an actual non-believer, he was simply an out-of-control fellow who used anything he needed to justify his misbehavior. His return to Christianity was born from guilt, lack of self-control, and a need for supernatural parenting due to his then-proven inability to take care of himself without God.

Furthermore, his "Case for Christ" has been thoroughly debunked, yet he claims that he was so satisfied by it that it convinced him to renounce atheism...any person, of any religious orientation, who would be satisfied with work of that level is clearly going into it with their mind already made up. The C for C is not a convincing work, frankly, so it is clear that Strobel WANTED to be convinced long before the project was completed.

Indeed, Strobel was never an Atheist... he was just a Rebellious Teen from the Family of the Church.

As you say, the fact that he claims he had no moral compass SMACKS of deception... he was using whatever justification (Atheism, for example) was necessary to allow him to justify the fact that he was out-of-control.

:D

That's too priceless.

I'm a 'sir'... SHE was a Ma'am....

(Yay, a serious thread with a much needed levity injection).

:eek: :confused: :D Ok I got completely confused eh? When you corrected me on the ma'am, I didn't notice it was a reply to Bottle that you were correcting. I do that a lot since this forum deletes replies from replies. DOH! My apologies to you both. :)

absolutely not. Christians are not charged with converting non-believers. We are charged, however, with sharing His truth. Its my job, as a Christian, to tell people. What they do with what I tell them is between them and God.

James 5:20 "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins".

:eek: :confused: :D Ok I got completely confused eh? When you corrected me on the ma'am, I didn't notice it was a reply to Bottle that you were correcting. I do that a lot since this forum deletes replies from replies. DOH! My apologies to you both. :)

I have been accused of far worse things than being female, or being Bottle.

I have been accused of far worse things than being female, or being Bottle.
Likewise :).

Wow. I guess that the whole "Protestants v. Catholics" deal that the Irish have had going for a few generations is just an illusion, then?
It's a conflict based on the fact that the "Protestants" are historically Scottish settlers forced into Ireland to the detriment of the local population.
It's actually pro-Irish vs. pro-British and religion has nothing to do with it in reality.

He ALSO says Darwin is where he lost his faith. Learning about evolution removed his need for God, which has happened for many believers.

I don't 'buy' this. I know a wide variety of religious and non-religious persons, and I know a wide variety of people with opinions on evolution.

There is no definite crossover. You don't HAVE TO abandon god to accept evolution, and not all Atheists are also evolutionists.

I believe Strobel is lying... I think he is picking a scapegoat.

I have yet to meet even ONE person who says that they were honestly converted to Atheism, by the theory of Evolution.

It's a conflict based on the fact that the "Protestants" are historically Scottish settlers forced into Ireland to the detriment of the local population.
It's actually pro-Irish vs. pro-British and religion has nothing to do with it in reality.
I guess I should take your word for that, rather than listening to what the Irish say. After all, they are just the people fighting and dying in the struggle...what would they know about their reasons for fighting?

As far as I can tell, Christianity is an oppressive, bull-headed, narrow-minded, contradicting, blind, uneducated group of people who worship only ONE of ALL THE GODS. And the also dislike or hate everyone who does not have their beliefs. :mad:

If he already had something of a conviction, then he was not the 'atheist' he claims to be.

So atheism isn't free-thinking after all? Are you saying you must be born and raised an atheist to be a true atheist?

I was a Christian... now, I'm a godless heathen. Do I utterly deny the possibility of God? No... but I don't 'believe it'.

Then I suppose that means you are agnostic then. Not a true atheist. Strobel denied the possibility of God. Whether or not you are a godless heathen, well that's your description, not mine.

Strobel obviously still 'believed' in god, regardless of his avowed persuasion... which is dishonest. If he HADN'T still believed, he would not have gone on this 'quest'.

Again, this is an assumption on your part and I see know way for you to back this opinion up.

Not to mention, of course, that most of those who change religions do NOT choose to write books about it... perhaps, the objectivity of the book should be questioned, no?

I don't see why. People write about their life experiences all the time.

And, what is your 'evidence' for the claim that 'evolution in schools' has caused many conversions away from religion? I only WISH that were true.

Because many have claimed such about themselves. Strobel and several of his interviewees but also many people I've met as well.

It's a lot like the definition of "love," in some ways.

Yes, there are certain things pretty much everybody agrees about "love." For instance, that it involves at least one living being (though some believe it could be directed at non-living entities and non-sentient beings), and that it can be an interactive state involving two or more beings. Love is generally agreed to be an emotion. Love is generally agreed to be a potentially powerful force/emotion, and is universally recognized as a force that can result in both positive and negative outcomes.

Similarly, pretty much everybody agrees that Christianity has something to do with Christ. It's got something to do with one particular God myth, and one particular book that talks a lot about that God myth. It's got Commandments in it that Christians are supposed to pay attention to. It's got some important figures that they are supposed to emmulate or avoid emmulating (though who those figures are will vary from sect to sect).

But once you get beyond the most general traits, both of these terms become hotly debated. To claim that the definition of Christianity is not in debate is as absurd as claiming there is no debate about the nature and definition of "love." There is, and probably always will be, because both religion and love are significantly subjective and thus are largely defined by whoever happens to be experiencing them...this means that the "definition" of either term will be as variable as the people participating in the experience of each state (Christianity or love), and no person can rightfully assert that he knows the REAL definition of either one.

ok, go with the love analogy. What is love. Well love obviously involves deep caring, usually with another being. How deep? there's no way to know. There are many things that pass for love. Lust is the biggie, obsession, desire, etc. Lets say this obsessive psychopath lusts after some girl he met at a bar. He follows her around, he feeds his obsession until he's convinced he's in love. He then approaches, kidnaps, rapes, and murders her. In his sick mind, he's convinced he loved her. His definition of love is not love. There are all sorts of definitions but love is love. It might get shown in many different ways, it might not be shown at all, it might take many different forms or just one. It can also be misdefined which happens often. These things don't change what love IS.

Same with Christianity. I stand by the statement I made. Those principals I gave are the fundamental core of Christianity. There is much debate on what one DOES as a Christian. There is much debate on what believes after becomming a Christian. There are many details in and out of the bible that are debatable in Christianity. However, without that fundamental core, there is no Christianity, even if someone claims it. Claiming to be Christian, going to church, reading the bible..these things don't make one a Christian, although they are things many Christians do.

Christianity is Truth, the following of Jesus Christ. It is an inspiration to many, and the path to heaven.

I guess I should take your word for that, rather than listening to what the Irish say. After all, they are just the people fighting and dying in the struggle...what would they know about their reasons for fighting?
What are you talking about?

Christianity is Truth, the following of Jesus Christ. It is an inspiration to many, and the path to heaven.
... so you think

As far as I can tell, Christianity is an oppressive, bull-headed, narrow-minded, contradicting, blind, uneducated group of people who worship only ONE of ALL THE GODS. And the also dislike or hate everyone who does not have their beliefs. :mad:

a very dismal opinion you have there. I disagree with your assessment wholeheartedly as I know this to be untrue.

sorry, I don't remember any of those statements in previous posts. I think you just made all of that up. No one claimed that rationality leads to depression and I don't remember a single word about torture, murder or true evil.

You might have had a better memory if you had perhaps read through the posts.
You would have certainly had a better comprehension if you'd even properly read the one post
you were quoting from.

DB did raise the subject of depression as you will see
now that I've brought it all together for you.

I ceased conversing with him when he insisted that opinions were more important than facts.

I mentioned torture murder war and the self satisfied smugness of the true evil as the kind
of thing that people in favour of religion tend to claim their religions do not lead to.
(Despite ample historical evidence to the contrary.)
As that has pretty much been his thrust all along, that religion is in some way good and not harmful.

Now unless you are claiming that I was wrong in suggesting that religions prefer to be thought
of as being in favour of something other than those four then perhaps you can explain why
without having the sense to follow a conversation through you feel able to accuse me of
making all of it up?






At the same time, morals have declined a considerable level. Many people are depressed and technology doesn't cure that. The more rational we are, the colder we are too.



I asked him to prove it

Just one: http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news/s/132/132623_depression_increasing_among_children.html

Children are now very rich compared to just a generation ago, but yet depression is increasing.


You just pointed me to a survey of some parents OPINIONS
that their children are under a lot of stress.

I suggest they are under rather a lot less stress then the average
devoutly christian saxon serf child was and they are probably a good
deal less depressed.
I suggest they are a deal less stressed than the boys and girls
growing up in London or Berlin in the 40's
I suggest that they are a great deal less stressed than the good christian
boys and girls of the 19th century who had the reasonable certainty
that they would get beaten at school for not knowing answers or for not understanding lessons.


You really do need to learn to tell the difference between what people
say and evidence.


And your final line seems to be that wealth causes depression
and I am not quite sure how that fits into the our little conversation
about religion vs rationality

What? Are opinions unimportant now? Human sciences is about opinions. -_-' Depression is increasing. I'd post you a Chinese link (I know Chinese better than English), but you won't understand.

Wealth is accumulated through rationality, don't you think?

Hardly

The people who make coca cola are rich
the people who make drugs to treat leprosy arent

The people who play the stock market are rich
the people who teach children are not

Many "preachers" are very rich
people who analyze and study and tell
the world what is actually happening
usually aren't

The world is full of people who believe in a god
rationality isn't terribly well rewarded in that kind of environment

Opinions are not facts
If you are trying to present proof
then it cannot be opinion.

It seems to be a problem you run into a lot


I don't see how the first half of the post and my previous post actually tell something that goes along with the thread...heh. I forgot. :p

Opinions are more important than facts sometimes, and provide solid proof for investigations in human sciences such as religion.

Now either you are just being plain stupid or your grasp of english is letting you down

Opinions cannot provide proof of any kind
even wibbly wobbly non solid proof.

You were trying to claim that rationality leads to depression
whereas religion leads to something other than torture , murder , wars
and that smug self satisified air that only the truly evil can have.


Be happy in your irrationality but discussing anything with you is clearly pointless.

I guess I should take your word for that, rather than listening to what the Irish say. After all, they are just the people fighting and dying in the struggle...what would they know about their reasons for fighting?
You take my word for it and you are listening to the Irish.

ok, go with the love analogy. What is love. Well love obviously involves deep caring, usually with another being. How deep? there's no way to know. There are many things that pass for love. Lust is the biggie, obsession, desire, etc. Lets say this obsessive psychopath lusts after some girl he met at a bar. He follows her around, he feeds his obsession until he's convinced he's in love. He then approaches, kidnaps, rapes, and murders her. In his sick mind, he's convinced he loved her. His definition of love is not love. There are all sorts of definitions but love is love. It might get shown in many different ways, it might not be shown at all, it might take many different forms or just one. It can also be misdefined which happens often. These things don't change what love IS.

Like I said, there are SOME qualities everybody can agree on. The abductor would be like the case of somebody claiming they are Christian while worshipping Thor; yes, we can all agree that's a case of non-Christian, just as the abductor is a case of non-love. That doesn't refute anything I said however. You, like most Christians, seem to really like thinking in black-and-white, pretending that shades of gray do not exist.


Same with Christianity.

Yup, it is the same...there are multiple shades and hues to this discussion that will not disappear just because you're colorblind. You can tell yourself there is no debate for as long as you want, though, since all you do in that case is remove yourself from the meaningful discussions.

What are you talking about?
The religious war that has been going on in Ireland for quite some time now. Like most long-running conflicts, there are multiple factors at work...some are political, some simply blood-feud, and some religious. One strong factor is the disagreement between two sects of Christians, each claiming it is the "real" Christianity.

I am Jewish, and mostly agree with this statement about Christians.While the faith itself is also about spreading Christianity to non-Christians, I feel that in general, most Christians do not do this. I am quite happy about that, as I feel that it is wrong to try to force your religion upon others. As I said, the vast majority of Christians do not try to do this, which is good.

I hear a lot of this, and finally I think I've been stung beyond the point of endurance. Let me say this plainly: short of someone holding a gun to your head and demanding your conversion, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR SOMEONE TO "FORCE" THEIR RELIGION ON YOU. Converting to a new religion is one of the supreme exercises of your sovereign will, and coercion is well-nigh impossible in this day and age. If your problem is merely that people keep pestering you with what they call "witnessing," call it for what it is, don't mislabel it as someone forcing their religion on you.

Oh, and the fact that you're offended suggests to me that your sensibilities are too delicate. It can be annoying, yes, but offensive? Methinks you doth protest too much.

a very dismal opinion you have there. I disagree with your assessment wholeheartedly as I know this to be untrue.
Don’t know it is the side that has sometimes reared its head throughout history as well as my personal life
I would not say they all do but I would say peoples faiths sometimes are used to reinforce what they wish to be true. (Not saying Christianity necessarily causes it … but it definitely has the option to reinforce it)

It's a conflict based on the fact that the "Protestants" are historically Scottish settlers forced into Ireland to the detriment of the local population.
It's actually pro-Irish vs. pro-British and religion has nothing to do with it in reality.


It is true that in the Irish situation someone's religion
is simply a handy guide or rule of thumb as to which
politics the individual has, it isn't the reason for the strife.

It isn't 100% accurate which is why guide or rule of thumb are the
expressions I used.

Surnames can also be used in like manner I haven't heard anyone call it
a surname war yet.

So atheism isn't free-thinking after all? Are you saying you must be born and raised an atheist to be a true atheist?


No. Not even close to what I said... not even related to it. I'm saying that, if you still 'believe', you are not an Atheist. I don't see that that is hard to grasp. Strobel obviously still had conviction. Thus, to say he was 'an Atheist' is dishonest.

Is Atheism free-thinking? Hard to make a blanket statement about something like that. I'd imagine there are Atheists who followed the herd, just as there are with the various religions. Does that make those people Atheistic? In name, perhaps.


Then I suppose that means you are agnostic then. Not a true atheist. Strobel denied the possibility of God. Whether or not you are a godless heathen, well that's your description, not mine.


No - I AM a 'True Atheist'... in as much as such a thing exists. I am an Implicit Atheist - which means that, while I don't DENY the possibility of god(s), I certainly do not accept them as fact. I am borderline Agnostic, because I'm not sure it will EVER be possible to TRULY know, either way.


Again, this is an assumption on your part and I see know way for you to back this opinion up.


Put is this way... are YOU feeling the urge to go out and investigate God, to see if he is real? If not... why not?


I don't see why. People write about their life experiences all the time.


Yes, little known people constantly try to get their testimonies of religious change published... Strobel claimed he'd been an Atheist because he knew that the Christian-book market LOVES to read that stuff... the victory over the sinners.


Because many have claimed such about themselves. Strobel and several of his interviewees but also many people I've met as well.

I find it hard to beleive that ANYONE honestly claims the highschool biology curriculum as the PRIME tool of their lapse in faith. I suspect there are deeper issues than the legacy of genes.

The religious war that has been going on in Ireland for quite some time now. Like most long-running conflicts, there are multiple factors at work...some are political, some simply blood-feud, and some religious. One strong factor is the disagreement between two sects of Christians, each claiming it is the "real" Christianity.



There is not a religious war in Ireland

There was one when Cromwell came over but I cannot think of another instance where there has been a relgious war in Ireland since then
and that was quite some time ago now.

There is not a religious war in Ireland

Anecdotal, or can you back it with sources?

I'm part-Irish, and my family experienced religious tensions in Ireland...

The religious war that has been going on in Ireland for quite some time now. Like most long-running conflicts, there are multiple factors at work...some are political, some simply blood-feud, and some religious. One strong factor is the disagreement between two sects of Christians, each claiming it is the "real" Christianity.
Ummmm....no.
It is not a religious war. It's a war between what were originally two seperate ethnic groups but who are now divided along nationalist lines. Religion is sometimes used to help differentiate the two groups but it is in truth a gross simplification. Try explaining to a loyalist that you are an Irish Protestant, or to a Nationalist that you are a British Catholic and you'll find out exactly what I mean.

There is not a religious war in Ireland

There was one when Cromwell came over but I cannot think of another instance where there has been a relgious war in Ireland since then
and that was quite some time ago now.
Cromwell's army was mostly Catholic. Cromwell was being a bog-standard colonialist, putting down an uprising.


Surnames can also be used in like manner I haven't heard anyone call it
a surname war yet.
LOL! Very true.

There is not a religious war in Ireland

There was one when Cromwell came over but I cannot think of another instance where there has been a relgious war in Ireland since then
and that was quite some time ago now.

I'm with you on this one. I think that religion is being used more as a pretext and fig leaf for nationalism, intolerance, criminality and general thuggery, than as an issue on its own.

I should have asked this question much earlier. To me it seems that a lot of you think Christianity is about gay-bashing and stopping people from having fun. What exactly do you think Christianity is corely about?


Well, the only thing I really took away from sunday school was... "If it feels good, don't do it."

There were other things, of course, but that's pretty much the only one I really remember.

Anecdotal, or can you back it with sources?

I'm part-Irish, and my family experienced religious tensions in Ireland...


I'm wholly Irish

Not Holy Irish though.

a very dismal opinion you have there. I disagree with your assessment wholeheartedly as I know this to be untrue.

Like Oaken Grove says, that is what Christianity has appeared to be - to him/her.

I have met 'Christians' that definitely fit the profile Oaken Grove sufggests... and I have met others who are FAR from that profile.

Perhaps Oaken Grove has only met the less exemplary Christians. I'm sure you'd HAVE to admit that those people exist.

Ummmm....no.
It is not a religious war. It's a war between what were originally two seperate ethnic groups but who are now divided along nationalist lines. Religion is sometimes used to help differentiate the two groups but it is in truth a gross simplification. Try explaining to a loyalist that you are an Irish Protestant, or to a Nationalist that you are a British Catholic and you'll find out exactly what I mean.
Again, this is another case where the reality is subject to debate. I've encountered people who view the conflict as you do, and people who view it very differently. I don't think any one side is "wrong," since everybody involved has their own set of motivations, but I do think it would be wrong to discount one set of motivations just because not everybody shares them.

At any rate, that was just an example I brought up to respond to the claim that the definition of Christianity is not in debate. There are countless other examples of such a debate raging on in the world today, and even if you want me to cast out the example of Northern Ireland it doesn't much change the thesis...Christians seem to really love sectarian debates, and love refering to other sects as "not real Christians," so there's no shortage of examples.

To worship the Great Queen Spider! All Hail the Great Queen Spider!!

I'm wholly Irish

Not Holy Irish though.

And yet, you saw NO conflict over faith? Might I ask how old you are?

Like I said, there are SOME qualities everybody can agree on. The abductor would be like the case of somebody claiming they are Christian while worshipping Thor; yes, we can all agree that's a case of non-Christian, just as the abductor is a case of non-love. That doesn't refute anything I said however. You, like most Christians, seem to really like thinking in black-and-white, pretending that shades of gray do not exist.

Yup, it is the same...there are multiple shades and hues to this discussion that will not disappear just because you're colorblind. You can tell yourself there is no debate for as long as you want, though, since all you do in that case is remove yourself from the meaningful discussions.

not at all. There are shades of gray everywhere. I can see them. I'm not even saying there's no debate, but the fundamental core must be there. Without the core, its a facade.

Like Oaken Grove says, that is what Christianity has appeared to be - to him/her.

I have met 'Christians' that definitely fit the profile Oaken Grove sufggests... and I have met others who are FAR from that profile.

Perhaps Oaken Grove has only met the less exemplary Christians. I'm sure you'd HAVE to admit that those people exist.
Actually, I am inclined to believe that if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, flies like a duck and says it's a dog.....it's probably lying.
(Now there's a weird image. ;) )

not at all. There are shades of gray everywhere. I can see them. I'm not even saying there's no debate, but the fundamental core must be there. Without the core, its a facade.
*sigh*

THE DEBATE IS OVER WHAT DEFINES "THE CORE." ONLY A FEW OF THE CRITERION FOR "THE CORE" CAN BE AGREED UPON, WHILE MANY OTHERS ARE HOTLY DEBATED.

The religious war that has been going on in Ireland for quite some time now. Like most long-running conflicts, there are multiple factors at work...some are political, some simply blood-feud, and some religious. One strong factor is the disagreement between two sects of Christians, each claiming it is the "real" Christianity.

and both failing to acknowledge that they both are "real" Christianity. They both have the same core beliefs, I would imagine the feuding would be more along the lines of how they worship.

I believe Christianity is about following the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I agree. I'm gay and a christian. These days christianity is full of politics. Chritians shoudl go abck to what christianity is about, what its realy about. Following the teachign of god and Jesus Christ.

Actually, I am inclined to believe that if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, flies like a duck and says it's a dog.....it's probably lying.
(Now there's a weird image. ;) )

Thanks for the mental image... :)

Are you trying to say that: Christian is what you DO, rather than what you SAY?

If so - I'm inlcined to agree... but there are hundreds of millions of 'Christians' out there who do not conform to that mould.

and both failing to acknowledge that they both are "real" Christianity. They both have the same core beliefs, I would imagine the feuding would be more along the lines of how they worship.

And yet, in many ways, I consider myself to be a Christian... since I see much wisdom in the teachings alleged to have come from Jesus.

But, I sure as hell don't believe he was any kind of apotheotic sacrifice.

Don’t know it is the side that has sometimes reared its head throughout history as well as my personal life
I would not say they all do but I would say peoples faiths sometimes are used to reinforce what they wish to be true. (Not saying Christianity necessarily causes it … but it definitely has the option to reinforce it)

agreed but the same can be said for just about anything that people feel strongly about.

And yet, you saw NO conflict over faith? Might I ask how old you are?

You've got 2 Irish people here telling you that your conceptions of
the troubles in Ireland are wrong.

Surely you can grasp this concept.
Irish nationalists want themselves in whatever part of Ireland they live
to be ruled by a democratic government which the people who live in Ireland
elect from amongst the people who live in Ireland.

Unionists want to keep the 6 counties they control under british rule.


The strife has always been about this.

nationalists are on the whole catholics
unionists are on the whole protestants

although though you can get a very small number of one type that
belong to the other religion.

The first president of the republic was a protestant for example
and the last 2 have been women

sure arent we a grand forward looking people with all kinds of equal rights advancements

The fact that the president has no real power and the Aras has
a kitchen that needs tending to has nothing whatsoever to do with this
ultra modern thinking of ours

agreed but the same can be said for just about anything that people feel strongly about.
Yeah it can … but religion is unique in its ability to put the “motivator” (god) conveniently beyond question

Other things that people feel strongly about can be proven to an extent but religion has a whole different aspect, being an emotional motivator with an supposedly unquestionable actor.

Thanks for the mental image... :)

Are you trying to say that: Christian is what you DO, rather than what you SAY?

If so - I'm inclined to agree... but there are hundreds of millions of 'Christians' out there who do not conform to that mould.
Exactly.
You can say you believe in Jesus Christ, you believe in his example of speaking and sitting with (for his time) the lowest of the low, social outcasts, showing civility to everyone and only speaking to people who approached him; but if you follow this up with, "Burn the queers, shoot the blacks, nuke the commies (although I suppose it would be Muslims now) and force everyone to pray in school," nothing you say will convince me you are a Christian.

Yeah it can … but religion is unique in its ability to put the “motivator” (god) conveniently beyond question

Other things that people feel strongly about can be proven to an extent but religion has a whole different aspect, being an emotional motivator with an supposedly unquestionable actor.


The one god thing brings in the Absolute.

So people will argue the opinions, hypotheses etc are absolutely true
without presenting any evidence of any kind simply because they claim
that god said so.

At least with pantheistic religions the gods were quite often in disagreement
the only thing they agreed upon was that people should worship them.
Pretty much everything else was open to debate.

You've got 2 Irish people here telling you that your conceptions of
the troubles in Ireland are wrong.

Surely you can grasp this concept.

Patronising behaviour doesn't help, you know.

Perhaps you think you are talking to some long-diluted New-Yorker, who last touched ground in the green country almost a century ago... instead of someone born on quite the OTHER side of 'the pond', who last touched Irish soil about a decade ago...

I'm sure you see what you see, and I'm not going to argue it... but I would say that you aren't necessarily seeing the actions and beliefs of EVERY SINGLE SOUL.

No. Not even close to what I said... not even related to it. I'm saying that, if you still 'believe', you are not an Atheist. I don't see that that is hard to grasp. Strobel obviously still had conviction. Thus, to say he was 'an Atheist' is dishonest.

You said if he ever had any conviction then he couldn't be a true-atheist. did you not? He said he no longer believed. How can you dispute what a person does and doesn't believe?

Is Atheism free-thinking? Hard to make a blanket statement about something like that. I'd imagine there are Atheists who followed the herd, just as there are with the various religions. Does that make those people Atheistic? In name, perhaps.

I agree with this statement and say that it goes both ways.



No - I AM a 'True Atheist'... in as much as such a thing exists. I am an Implicit Atheist - which means that, while I don't DENY the possibility of god(s), I certainly do not accept them as fact. I am borderline Agnostic, because I'm not sure it will EVER be possible to TRULY know, either way.

how does this definition differ from skeptic? I was under the impression an atheist denies God exists. My understanding is they BELIEVE he does not. Either way, I still cannot see how you can make a determination on someone else's belief.



Put is this way... are YOU feeling the urge to go out and investigate God, to see if he is real? If not... why not?

Yes, I am. Why do you ask?
Strobel got the urge to investigate because his wife dropped a bomb on him and he found himself living with a born again Christian. That just might be a motivation to do some investigating. Especially if their lifestyles suddenly came into conflict. I find that perfectly reasonable.



Yes, little known people constantly try to get their testimonies of religious change published... Strobel claimed he'd been an Atheist because he knew that the Christian-book market LOVES to read that stuff... the victory over the sinners.

again, you are speculating on what he knew, thought, and believed. Yes the Christian-book market loves to read that stuff, that doesn't make all instances of it untrue. Not everyone that says what you want to hear is saying it because you want to hear it. It might just happen to be true as well.



I find it hard to beleive that ANYONE honestly claims the highschool biology curriculum as the PRIME tool of their lapse in faith. I suspect there are deeper issues than the legacy of genes.

Why? You don't believe that the age old rift between science and religion would cause converts on either side? So evolution doesn't claim one way or the other about God. That doesn't stop MANY people from forming their beliefs around it. How many times in a religious thread does evolution come up? What is the #1 reason given in a discussion about religion for not believing? Evolution. It invariably turns to evolution vs. religion every time. Why? Because that is where the biggest conflict in most people's mind is. So why wouldn't this big event be enough to start a person on a path of atheism? He never claimed it was the only thing, just the beginning of it.

Patronising behaviour doesn't help, you know.

Perhaps you think you are talking to some long-diluted New-Yorker, who last touched ground in the green country almost a century ago... instead of someone born on quite the OTHER side of 'the pond', who last touched Irish soil about a decade ago...

<snip>


Then you have absolutely no excuse for such a dismally poor grasp
of the nature of the troubles.

Exactly.
You can say you believe in Jesus Christ, you believe in his example of speaking and sitting with (for his time) the lowest of the low, social outcasts, showing civility to everyone and only speaking to people who approached him; but if you follow this up with, "Burn the queers, shoot the blacks, nuke the commies (although I suppose it would be Muslims now) and force everyone to pray in school," nothing you say will convince me you are a Christian.

I utterly agree... and, to be honest, that is the model by which I live my life... that 'christian' model, I mean. All except for the 'believing in Jesus' part... I live that lifestyle, but I don't buy that story.

And yet, probably MOST of the world 'labelled' as Christiansm, falls closer to the second grouping than the first.

Anecdotal, or can you back it with sources?

I'm part-Irish, and my family experienced religious tensions in Ireland...

relgious tensions? Is that synonomous with war? There are religious tensions on this thread, we're not at war. I was under the impression that most of the fighting in Ireland (IRA) had to do with falling under the crown more than anything.

Then you have absolutely no excuse for such a dismally poor grasp
of the nature of the troubles.

Again, in your opinion.

I'm not so blinkered as to believe that the situation has ANY clear battlelines... religious, racial, territorial...

Like Oaken Grove says, that is what Christianity has appeared to be - to him/her.

I have met 'Christians' that definitely fit the profile Oaken Grove sufggests... and I have met others who are FAR from that profile.

Perhaps Oaken Grove has only met the less exemplary Christians. I'm sure you'd HAVE to admit that those people exist.

absolutely those people exist. I still disagree with Oaken Grove's dismal opinion.

absolutely those people exist. I still disagree with Oaken Grove's dismal opinion.
Thats fine and I am sure you dont think the people that act that way are real christians just as they think you arnt

Christianity is about following the teachings of Christ. Many people will use the Church of yester-century as an example to shut me up, but Islam is supposed to be a peacful religion and look at all the ists. You can't bash a way of life because of a few people caving in to their desires. I could probably find some examples of atheists gone crinimal because they're atheist and someone wasn't, but I won't stoop down to some underhanded assault.

Well, Stalin was atheist.

*sigh*

THE DEBATE IS OVER WHAT DEFINES "THE CORE." ONLY A FEW OF THE CRITERION FOR "THE CORE" CAN BE AGREED UPON, WHILE MANY OTHERS ARE HOTLY DEBATED.

ok, give me examples of the many others.

There are only a few criterion in the "core".

I utterly agree... and, to be honest, that is the model by which I live my life... that 'christian' model, I mean. All except for the 'believing in Jesus' part... I live that lifestyle, but I don't buy that story.

And yet, probably MOST of the world 'labelled' as Christiansm, falls closer to the second grouping than the first.
True. But then they are not Christian.

Again, in your opinion.

I'm not so blinkered as to believe that the situation has ANY clear battlelines... religious, racial, territorial...


No, not in my opinion, in fact.

I'm glad you mentioned racial because fortunately there aren't any
racial identifiers between unionists and republicans if there were
you would no doubt be claiming race was part of the reasons for strife too.

When the republic got its freedom the population was something like 98/99%
(revision: going a bit over the top there, appx 96% catholic appx 3% protestants
of all denominations and whats left over being everything else)
catholic and they all thought it was incredibly important to them to be so
and they didn't want to enter protestant institutions.
Leading to the ridiculous situation when the first president died and
the entire cabinet attended but stood outside the protestant cathedral where
the services were being held.

But not having any dispute about who ruled in the republic that has faded away
and seems ridiculous now even to staunch catholics who were around at the time.

And yet, in many ways, I consider myself to be a Christian... since I see much wisdom in the teachings alleged to have come from Jesus.

But, I sure as hell don't believe he was any kind of apotheotic sacrifice.

then you are still omitting one of the "core" criteria. You have to accept Him as your Lord and Savior.

Well, Stalin was atheist.


A lot of people would claim that the regime in the USSR was not communism.

But when people call themselves something then all the people who
identify themselves with that same something get judged by the actions
of all others who call themselves that same something.

So a lot of people here don't like christians because of what has been done
in the name of christianity.

If communism is to be claimed to have been bad and evil because of how
the USSR acted then it is a perfectly valid claim to brand christianity evil
for the actions committed by those declaring themselves christian.

If however you do believe that when those calling themselves communists
acted in violation of the principles of communism it did not reflect on real communism then it is reasonable for you to also claim that the disturbing
actions by people calling themselves christians do not reflect on christianity.


One of the biggest problems though is christians put a lot of store in the concept
of validity by tradition. Usually looking all the way back to jesus and
declaring themselves to be part of an unbroken tradition.
As the tradition includes terrible deeds those deeds must either be justified
or christians must recognize that tradition does not give them any claim
to validity

I utterly agree... and, to be honest, that is the model by which I live my life... that 'christian' model, I mean. All except for the 'believing in Jesus' part... I live that lifestyle, but I don't buy that story.

And yet, probably MOST of the world 'labelled' as Christiansm, falls closer to the second grouping than the first.

yes, they do, unfortunately. Yet that isn't a reflection on Christianity, its a reflection on the people calling themselves Christians.

Thats fine and I am sure you dont think the people that act that way are real christians just as they think you arnt

actually I wouldn't make that judgement one way or the other. I'd think of those people as people who really need to look at themselves and assess, for themselves, whether they are following Christ's teaching.

One of the biggest problems though is christians put a lot of store in the concept
of validity by tradition. Usually looking all the way back to jesus and
declaring themselves to be part of an unbroken tradition.
As the tradition includes terrible deeds those deeds must either be justified
or christians must recognize that tradition does not give them any claim
to validity

I agree with your comparison. However, those terrible deeds are part of the history, not the tradition. They were not justified either. We don't practice inquisitions and crusades. They have never been a Christian tradition, just a ugly period in Christian history.

I agree with your comparison. However, those terrible deeds are part of the history, not the tradition. They were not justified either. We don't practice inquisitions and crusades. They have never been a Christian tradition, just a ugly period in Christian history.


And just how often or how long do things have to go on for
for them to be considered traditional.

Over the last 2 millenia there have been an awful lot of ugly periods
in christian history.

It’s about accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, acknowledging that he died for our sins so we shouldn’t have to, and rose three says later, demonstrating the triumph over death.

Possibly.

Of course, the Abelardian view of atonement has an equal amount of backing, and it suggests that Christ died so that we would turn to God in love, rather than fear, thereby gaining our salvation.

I understand Christianity, and have nothing but contempt for it. Its teachings are utterly irreconcilable with anything that I would call "morality."

It is immoral to treat others as you wish them to treat you?

It is immoral to help others in need?

It is immoral to treat all people, even the least fortunate, with respect?

It is immoral to return love with love?

It is immoral to avoid violence where you can and assert yourself in other ways?

Odd...