NationStates Jolt Archive

A trade war, that is.

This article (http://www.economist.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3203357) is almost one year old. It details the Canadian fight to get The United States of America, with which it has a free trade agreement, to end its tariffs against Canadian softwood lumber.

The highest authority on NAFTA issues, the Extraordinary Challenge Committee, has ruled unanimously in favour of Canada on this issue. The American government has chosen to ignore this ruling in what even the creators of NAFTA are calling bully tactics.

So what does Canada do? The WTO has given Canada the permission to wage a trade war against the United States, but to what end? While the American economy would certain reel from a lack of Canadian input, the Canadian economy is even more dependent on the United States than the States are on Canada. Canada's only hope in a trade war would be to make the United States uncomfortable enough that its people would demand the US end it, but Canada would sustain even more economic damage than the United States.

So I put this question to you, the members of NationStates: what should Canada do? I know some of you are American, and that some of you will think you have every right to take advantage of the treaties you have with Canada and break them to meet your own ends. After all, agreements between countries are made to be broken with no apology or exception. If you don't believe me, just ask Hitler about the Non-Aggression Pact he signed with Stalin. I believe it was called the Molotov-Ribentropp, but I could be wrong. However, for those of you who agree with the entire Extraordinary Challenge Committee, a committee comprised of both Canadian and American members that was included at the behest of the United States to resolve NAFTA disputes, what do you think Canada should do?

Gorilla trade warfare...

No declared war, just hit and run tactics...rumours about the safety and effectiveness of US products, sudden, inexplicable and intermittent problems getting perishable products across the border (I'm sorry there seems to be some problem with the paper work....), and roots level resistence (dont ban their stuff, just encourage people not to buy it)...


Really you are right to suggest that cannot afford an official declared war, so probably the only pragmatic response would be to encourage consumers to avoid US products, and collude with other nations in a similar position to do the same.

Your a moron. The non-agression treaty between Hitler and Stalin was only to buy time for Hitler, who wanted to take out France, Great Britian, and the rest of Europe.

TheCanada would never declare war on the U.S. unless terrorists some how manage to fire a U.S. missile at Canada. However, if your talking about economic sanctions? I don't think so.

Just when I thought you people couldn't get any stupider, I was wrong.

Your a moron. The non-agression treaty between Hitler and Stalin was only to buy time for Hitler, who wanted to take out France, Great Britian, and the rest of Europe.

TheCanada would never declare war on the U.S. unless terrorists some how manage to fire a U.S. missile at Canada. However, if your talking about economic sanctions? I don't think so.

Just when I thought you people couldn't get any stupider, I was wrong.
I have to ask is the phrase (and concept) 'trade war' completely unfamiliar to you? If you are really suggesting the US would not use their economic advantages to coerce other nations to act or not act in particular ways, then I can only suggest you are not too clued up when it comes to US trade policy.

i think that the us which i am american by the way shoudl quite being s nation full of idiots get rid of its dumb president and accept canada as the helpful brother its been...maybe even join canada.

i think that the us which i am american by the way shoudl quite being s nation full of idiots get rid of its dumb president and accept canada as the helpful brother its been...maybe even join canada.

We think Canada as a "helpful brother", especially when during 9/11 they took on all of the diverted planes that were coming into the U.S.

And yes, I do understand the concept and phrase of trade war and I do not believe that is happening right now.

Your a moron. The non-agression treaty between Hitler and Stalin was only to buy time for Hitler, who wanted to take out France, Great Britian, and the rest of Europe.

TheCanada would never declare war on the U.S. unless terrorists some how manage to fire a U.S. missile at Canada. However, if your talking about economic sanctions? I don't think so.

Just when I thought you people couldn't get any stupider, I was wrong.

I hate to sound juvenile, but IT TAKES ONE TO KNOW ONE. Wait a second, I lied, I'm sorry, I love to sound juvenile. Have a happy sabath.

Sincerely,
Jeremy Robert Furbish
AT-NH2ME2000
FSP-MN2NH2004
www.freestateproject.org
Blaze a trail to freedom!

And yes, I do understand the concept and phrase of trade war and I do not believe that is happening right now.
Which entirely side-steps what appears to be the point of the thread. The original poster appears to be asking what actions Canada should take in the current situation, and points out the possible problems with one possible option available to Canada (that is to engage in a trade war). So far as I can tell there is no suggestion that there is currently such a war occuring (why ask 'should we start this' if it's already happening), and your earlier comments that the US would not go to war with Canada appear either irrelevent (since the post is about a trade war, entirely different to a all out war), or probably wrong (I see no reason to believe the US could not be provoked into engaging in a trade war with Canada).

I certainly do not find the suggestion that the US might engage in a trade war with Canada, were Canada to initiate such a trade war, so far-fetched as to justify calling someone stupid because they consider it possible.

Oh, hell yeah! It be the funniest war in the longest time. It probably be started because a Canadian said "eh?" and some hispanic American thought he called him a "whey".

Then there'd be a bunch of confusion with the lingo during the war. Such as a Canadian saying "lets get 'em hosers, eh!" and the American side would say "did they just say they were going to hose us down?".

Bunch of crazy quotes like that would make a funny war.

A trade war, that is.

This article (http://www.economist.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3203357) is almost one year old. It details the Canadian fight to get The United States of America, with which it has a free trade agreement, to end its tariffs against Canadian softwood lumber.

The highest authority on NAFTA issues, the Extraordinary Challenge Committee, has ruled unanimously in favour of Canada on this issue. The American government has chosen to ignore this ruling in what even the creators of NAFTA are calling bully tactics.

So what does Canada do? The WTO has given Canada the permission to wage a trade war against the United States, but to what end? While the American economy would certain reel from a lack of Canadian input, the Canadian economy is even more dependent on the United States than the States are on Canada. Canada's only hope in a trade war would be to make the United States uncomfortable enough that its people would demand the US end it, but Canada would sustain even more economic damage than the United States.

So I put this question to you, the members of NationStates: what should Canada do? I know some of you are American, and that some of you will think you have every right to take advantage of the treaties you have with Canada and break them to meet your own ends. After all, agreements between countries are made to be broken with no apology or exception. If you don't believe me, just ask Hitler about the Non-Aggression Pact he signed with Stalin. I believe it was called the Molotov-Ribentropp, but I could be wrong. However, for those of you who agree with the entire Extraordinary Challenge Committee, a committee comprised of both Canadian and American members that was included at the behest of the United States to resolve NAFTA disputes, what do you think Canada should do?

On this issue, I agree with the Candian standpoint. I only hope things work out. I'm very far removed from Canadian imports and products personally.

I hate to sound juvenile, but IT TAKES ONE TO KNOW ONE. Wait a second, I lied, I'm sorry, I love to sound juvenile. Have a happy sabath.

Sincerely,
Jeremy Robert Furbish
AT-NH2ME2000
FSP-MN2NH2004
www.freestateproject.org
Blaze a trail to freedom!

Actually, I'm pretty smart so it looks like your wrong again.

We think Canada as a "helpful brother", especially when during 9/11 they took on all of the diverted planes that were coming into the U.S.

And yes, I do understand the concept and phrase of trade war and I do not believe that is happening right now.
There's been one going on for a long time. Suits and countersuits have been flying in the WTO for the last few years.

Canada needs to stop selling raw materials to other nations and buying back manufactured products, for a start. We sell raw logs and buy back finished furniture, for heaven's sake. We should also be radically expanding trade with China and India. If the U.S. can't buy Canadian lumber at reasonable prices (thanks to American lumber barons being greedy) then the cost of housing in the U.S. rises and first time buyers get priced out of the housing market. Let the Americans have their way, just stop relying totally on them as buyers and sell elsewhere. Eventually the American voters will do something about their government's pandering to lobby groups at the expense of the people who elected them.

I don't think a trade war is winnable anyway, the U.S. has too many resources in the short term. They could simply hold out until our economy collapses, and although theirs would take a huge hit, it would not collapse. We would be cutting off our nose to spite our face. Nope, the answer is to expand our own domestic manufacturing and expand our export markets into the Pacific Rim and Europe. Reliance on one trading partner for 85% of your exports is putting all your eggs in one basket.

i think that the us which i am american by the way shoudl quite being s nation full of idiots get rid of its dumb president and accept canada as the helpful brother its been...maybe even join canada.


Ah, but we can only stop being a "nation full of idiots" when we get rid of you. That is one long, incoherent sentence you managed to bang out of your keyboard.

i think that the us which i am american by the way shoudl quite being s nation full of idiots get rid of its dumb president and accept canada as the helpful brother its been...maybe even join canada.



The irony is astounding :p

There really is nothing that we can do if the Americans continue to be assholes about free trade except stop trading with them. If a friend of yours always lets you down, eventually you just cut them. It might be hard to become less dependent on the US, but the fact of the matter is that they have proved themselves to be untrustworthy.

"You want free trade, you want free trade. Too bad!" - Prime Ministre Jean Chretien

Either we can trust them to trade fairly, or we can't risk that they will fuck us over again. This is not about principles. I would not want to ruin the economy to prove a point. It is bad business to trade with them when there is an unknown risk as long as we remain dependent on them. As it stands, they could wreak the Canadian economy if they so chose, and I honestly believe that they would if they thought it would benifit them.

Doesn't it suck when nations enact tariffs to protect their domestic industries? Just like how Canada put a tariff on America TV shows because their studios can't compete with ours.

The irony is astounding :p

+1 :)

...what do you think Canada should do?

How's abouts a prohibitively expensive energy export surcharge. They already want to pay more for our wood so why not help them to pay more for energy? :D

Helping hands across the border I say!

Doesn't it suck when nations enact tariffs to protect their domestic industries? Just like how Canada put a tariff on America TV shows because their studios can't compete with ours.

Is that why half of Hollywood moved to Vancouver in the 1990's?

Thats because the filming there is so cheap. However, when the studios ship out the finished product, The Canadian government slaps a tax on it.

Thats because the filming there is so cheap. However, when the studios ship out the finished product, The Canadian government slaps a tax on it.

Truth be told they slap a tax on everything but something tells me you're talking about Canadian content requirements.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


canada


hahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha

canada couldn't even fight gay marriage

So, then. why all the bitching about the softwood lumber? Seriously, do you think the Canadian government really wants outside sources looking at their trade practices?

Ooh! My thread has grown. Time to do some weeding, however.

Your a moron. The non-agression treaty between Hitler and Stalin was only to buy time for Hitler, who wanted to take out France, Great Britian, and the rest of Europe.

TheCanada would never declare war on the U.S. unless terrorists some how manage to fire a U.S. missile at Canada. However, if your talking about economic sanctions? I don't think so.

Just when I thought you people couldn't get any stupider, I was wrong.

Actually, my point was to sarcastically attack those who might say that international treaties are made to be broken or withdrawn from at convenience, something that I hear is quite popular in America these days. I'd invite you to read the rest of the thread and the linked article, both of which outline the plight of the Canadian government in this situation.

Doesn't it suck when nations enact tariffs to protect their domestic industries? Just like how Canada put a tariff on America TV shows because their studios can't compete with ours.

Except that broadcasting was never covered under NAFTA, giving the Canadians the right to do what they want in regards to broadcasting. We beleive it preserves our cultual identity, something that I'm not in favour of, but certainly understand. If you want a really stupid tariff, the United States subsidizes sugar grown in Minesota, Florida and Idaho while putting tariffs on sugar imports on the grounds of "national security".

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


canada


hahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha

canada couldn't even fight gay marriage

Canada could fight you and win.

And anudder ting... Canadian exports of lumber to the US has always been a trade dispute. One agreement expires, the US govt. slaps on tariffs, agreement is renewed, sometimes US govt. has to return tariffs to mills, in the meantime you pay more for furniture and housing but don't recover a nickel when the dispute ends. This has been going on for decades.

So, then. why all the bitching about the softwood lumber? Seriously, do you think the Canadian government really wants outside sources looking at their trade practices?


I'm not sure why you're protesting something that doesn't exist. :confused:

So, I ask again.....why the bitching?

Some of you people on here are hilarious.. thanks for the laugh thread.. lol..

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
canada
canada couldn't even fight gay marriageWe fought for gay marriage, and won.

Some of you people on here are hilarious.. thanks for the laugh thread.. lol..

Pssst..homosexuality isn't genetic!

So, then. why all the bitching about the softwood lumber? Seriously, do you think the Canadian government really wants outside sources looking at their trade practices?

Actually, there are outside sources whose job it is to look into trade practices of countries around the world: the WTO, for instance. The thing is that they've only taken issue with American trade practices, not Canadian ones, which is something you've ignored so far.

We fought for gay marriage, and won.



That's not something to brag about :rolleyes:

So, I ask again.....why the bitching?

Do you have a clue what you're talking about or are you an avid fan of Fox News?

That's not something to brag about :rolleyes:
Oh god, it's happening AGAIN.



Let's save our debate about gay marriage for another time, another thread, preferably after I'm king :D.

Actually, there are outside sources whose job it is to look into trade practices of countries around the world: the WTO, for instance. The thing is that they've only taken issue with American trade practices, not Canadian ones, which is something you've ignored so far.

Actually, they've only heard Canada's petition so far. They haven't really delved into a deep investigation because they know its fucking stupid and realize that the US and Canada do these things as part of negociations.

Do you have a clue what you're talking about or are you an avid fan of Fox News?


You don't know. thats all you have to say. Just admit it and we can move on.

to hell with a trade war lets just have mexico and canada both declare war on the united states, and in the unlikely event that yall win form a cotinental goverment that way stupid threads like this will only refer to the rest of the world...and who really cares about them ;) j/k

We fought for gay marriage, and won.

Homo. :)

A trade war, that is.

This article (http://www.economist.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3203357) is almost one year old. It details the Canadian fight to get The United States of America, with which it has a free trade agreement, to end its tariffs against Canadian softwood lumber.

The highest authority on NAFTA issues, the Extraordinary Challenge Committee, has ruled unanimously in favour of Canada on this issue. The American government has chosen to ignore this ruling in what even the creators of NAFTA are calling bully tactics.

So what does Canada do? The WTO has given Canada the permission to wage a trade war against the United States, but to what end? While the American economy would certain reel from a lack of Canadian input, the Canadian economy is even more dependent on the United States than the States are on Canada. Canada's only hope in a trade war would be to make the United States uncomfortable enough that its people would demand the US end it, but Canada would sustain even more economic damage than the United States.

So I put this question to you, the members of NationStates: what should Canada do? I know some of you are American, and that some of you will think you have every right to take advantage of the treaties you have with Canada and break them to meet your own ends. After all, agreements between countries are made to be broken with no apology or exception. If you don't believe me, just ask Hitler about the Non-Aggression Pact he signed with Stalin. I believe it was called the Molotov-Ribentropp, but I could be wrong. However, for those of you who agree with the entire Extraordinary Challenge Committee, a committee comprised of both Canadian and American members that was included at the behest of the United States to resolve NAFTA disputes, what do you think Canada should do?

Well, if they feeling froggy they should leap :) but why should canada and US fight ? thats crazy, I mean get real, if America wanted to invade out, it would be mexico. And why not do that... But no, dont think America and Canada should duel. Id prefer we were friends (as I thought we were, but was proven wrong there by Canadian posters in another thread)

So atleast lets pretend to be friends :)

That's not something to brag about :rolleyes:
It shouldnt be something to brag about, because it should be the norm. Unfortunately that's not the case.

Meanwhile, when it comes to dealing fairly in free trade issues, the US is mega suckie.

You don't know. thats all you have to say. Just admit it and we can move on.

OK I admit we don't have a Fox News based in Canada and like you I still don't know what you're talking about.

Actually, they've only heard Canada's petition so far. They haven't really delved into a deep investigation because they know its fucking stupid and realize that the US and Canada do these things as part of negociations.

Actually, check this out (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/softwood_lumber/).

"A NAFTA decision on August 13, 2003 was considered a partial victory for the Canadian side. A panel ruled that, while the Canadian lumber industry is subsidized, the 18 per cent tariff imposed on softwood lumber by the United States is too high."

"It ordered Washington to recalculate them. NAFTA decisions are legally binding and must be put into effect within 60 days."

"Two weeks later, a WTO panel concluded that the U.S. wrongly applied harsh duties on Canadian softwood exports."

"On Aug. 10, 2005, an “extraordinary challenge panel” under NAFTA dismissed American claims that the earlier NAFTA decision in favour of Canada violated trade rules. "

So both NAFTA and the WTO take Canada's side...

That's not something to brag about :rolleyes:Yes, it is. It is something to brag about, because it is something that I do brag about.

My 2 cents:
Canada should bring this before the WTO, and ask for sanctions placed upon the US by all countries until America pays back what it owes.
That would cause America far more monetary grief than Canada going it alone against them.

My 2 cents:
Canada should bring this before the WTO, and ask for sanctions placed upon the US by all countries until America pays back what it owes.
That would cause America far more monetary grief than Canada going it alone against them.

It has been put before the WTO and the Canadian government recently enacted a few retatliatory tariffs.

My 2 cents:
Canada should bring this before the WTO, and ask for sanctions placed upon the US by all countries until America pays back what it owes.
That would cause America far more monetary grief than Canada going it alone against them.

My 2 cents. America owes no one anything, and all cherity to Africa should be outlawed. You folks here and your anti-american BS is crazy.

Too bad America didnt sit back and let Hitler roll all your asses. and then step in and destroy em, and make the freed lands new states.

My 2 cents. America owes no one anything, and all cherity to Africa should be outlawed. You folks here and your anti-american BS is crazy.

Too bad America didnt sit back and let Hitler roll all your asses. and then step in and destroy em, and make the freed lands new states.

Canada is just asking that the United States follow the treaty it signed with us only 15 years ago. If it wants to back out, fine. Right now, however, it is claiming to support free trade while being remarkably and more importanly unfairly protectionist. Why are you so angry at the rest of the world?

Canada is just asking that the United States follow the treaty it signed with us only 15 years ago. If it wants to back out, fine. Right now, however, it is claiming to support free trade while being remarkably and more importanly unfairly protectionist. Why are you so angry at the rest of the world?

Why am I angry at the rest of the world ? No matter where I turn all i see is posts saying how us Americans are evil, the devils, etc.

Actually I liked canada quite a bit before this site, and saw that hatred was hard core there too against me :)

America is being protectionist in Trade ??? Our Govt has put most of America out of work with its stupid free trade agreements and tax cuts for off shore companies.

They dont care though, they never had to work an honest days labor anyhow for the mostpart so why should our politicians care what the average American faces ?

Why am I angry at the rest of the world ? No matter where I turn all i see is posts saying how us Americans are evil, the devils, etc.

Actually I liked canada quite a bit before this site, and saw that hatred was hard core there too against me :)

I have intentionally tried to steer clear of commenting on American policy in every post I've made here, but obviously I haven't done so well enough. I'll have to try harder next time.

America is being protectionist in Trade ??? Our Govt has put most of America out of work with its stupid free trade agreements...

*snippity*

Actually, those free trade agreements are what makes almost everything you buy cheaper than what it would be without free trade. That's the trade-off, if you will. Some people in certain fields lose their jobs, but everyone sees the cost of living go way down.

Canada can try, but America would win.

Too bad America didnt sit back and let Hitler roll all your asses. and then step in and destroy em, and make the freed lands new states.
Why, would that have made your country any more willing to honour it's trade agreements today?

Didn't think so.

America is being protectionist in Trade ??? Our Govt has put most of America out of work with its stupid free trade agreements and tax cuts for off shore companies.

Which doesnt negate the fact that the US constantly harps on that everyone else should conduct themselves so as to ensure free trade, whilst providing subsidies to their own producers, and placing tarrifs on incoming goods. It's a bit galling that other nations act to implement the free trade conditions the US has nagged us all into, whilst the US continues to kow-tow to any industry in the US smart and big enough to put together an effective lobby group.

Do not forget that other nations have suffered job losses by playing the by the free trade rules the US has been so involved in bringing about. Why should we suffer job losses and decreased revenue, due to playing the free trade rule mostly at the insistence of the US, while the US slaps tarrifs on our products, and hints that it will consider implementing free trade with us on its end, provided we allow it to dictate policy in for instance military matters.

It's not 'hatred of the US' but annoyance at the constant unfairness and bullying tactics employed by the US.

Why, would that have made your country any more willing to honour it's trade agreements today?

Didn't think so.

Heh, well atleast with A Hitler Europe we would have known where to watch our back. Instead of as it is. Where we have a multitude of sides to watch.

Not to mention all those Americans wouldnt have died for people who crap on Americans every chance they get..

Heh, well atleast with A Hitler Europe we would have known where to watch our back. Instead of as it is. Where we have a multitude of sides to watch.

Not to mention all those Americans wouldnt have died for people who crap on Americans every chance they get..

Actually, they died to give people the freedom to crap on Americans every chance they get. It's part of the whole freedom deal. In some countries it even comes with a side of fries.

Actually, they died to give people the freedom to crap on Americans every chance they get. It's part of the whole freedom deal. In some countries it even comes with a side of fries.

true true

I dont have to like it though that Americans died for their right to crap on Americans.

true true

I dont have to like it though that Americans died for their right to crap on Americans.
"I bet you're sorry you won", John Lennon in A Hard Day's Night

Two things:

First the important one, Yes the U.S. GOVERMENT/CORPERATIONS should be honoring the free-trade agreements, thats a given. enough said.

Second, as an American I am often offended by people explaining that "America does this," and "Americans do that." Stop blaming America as a whole, 3/4 of all Americans are idiots and believes everything the government says, and the other 1/4 is so small we hardly get heard. So, please do not think that ALL Americans are evil, most of us are just nieve.

Canada is only allowed to declare war on the US if they provide us with sweet Canadian suds. I'll expect that keg of Molson by dawn.

Canada is only allowed to declare war on the US if they provide us with sweet Canadian suds. I'll expect that keg of Molson by dawn.
America will never war with canada (i hope)

mexico, why not.

course Ima hardliner hehe :)

Much as Canadians may hate us, i still respect them.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


canada


hahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha

canada couldn't even fight gay marriage
You have no flippin clue what you're talking about :rolleyes:
BTW, you're the saddest American I've ever met!

BTW, you're the saddest American I've ever met!

You don't get out much, do you ....

You don't get out much, do you ....
Lol

Just came back from the fish plant. 10hrs regular (12pm - 10pm) + 4hrs overtime + 1/2hr drive from Port Edward to Prince Rupert (f'n 80km/h speed limit). Day off tomorrow, Yay!!!!! :D

Just came back from the fish plant. 10hrs regular (12pm - 10pm) + 4hrs overtime + 1/2hr drive from Port Edward to Prince Rupert (f'n 80km/h speed limit). Day off tomorrow, Yay!!!!! :D

Fish plant ... zowie ...

If I'm assuming correctly, that's similar to the crap ass job I had while working my way through college as a person who reels in nets, breaks their backs hauling out garbage, and then spends his evenings removing the eyes and guts from sea creatures so other people will find them palatable for food ... all the while never getting a date because the person in question reeks of fish regardless of the number of showers they take.

Fun. :D

2004 Est US GDP 11,750,000,000,000
2004 Est Canada GDP 1,023,000,000,000

US Exports to Canada in 2004. In millions, 189,879.9
US Imports From Canada in 2004. In millions, 256,359.8
US Trade deficit with Canada in 2004. In millions, -66,480.0

For one thing... Canada has a long way to catch up with the US GDP... The closer they get, it will be exponentially that much more difficult to get closer yet. I could easily state that Canada's GDP is grossely bloated when compared to population figures only because of its proximity to the US. Its like the 51st state for crying out loud!

Another thing, a trade war with the US would benefit the US... We would not be losing 66.5 billion per year to the hosers. For once we would have to buy our own products! Heaven forbid... Canada would suffer tremendously. 256 billion in exports is bread crumbs to the US... But 256 billion in imports to Canada is almost exactly 25% of their GDP...

Canada is not stupid, taking any sort of action against the US would forfit their "Stepchild" status with the US... We could easily go elsewhere with our business and cut more costs.

And one last thing O Canada, just remember the US could pound your turd world military into dust... Canada's military, that is one thing they don't have to pay much for being next to the US... Its almost a formality... This is going back the the "Stepchild" status thing...

Canada is just asking that the United States follow the treaty it signed with us only 15 years ago. If it wants to back out, fine. Right now, however, it is claiming to support free trade while being remarkably and more importanly unfairly protectionist. Why are you so angry at the rest of the world?


Considering the generousity of the US over the last century, I think we deserve a little more respect. Instead the world bitches we don't give enought aid. Or when we must invade a country we did it all wrong, IE not Europes way.

Not to mention how the UN has turned into THE place to go and complain about the US.

I think the UN will suddenly be without their biggest crutch within 15 years. At least that will be the case if this Anti-American sentiment keeps up.

I thought Europe and the rest of Western Civ were our allies? Instead we get only hostility with any action we take, Its like Some guy (the US) married an attractive woman (Europe). They had children (NATO, UN) and the woman grew old, grey, and cross at the man for reasons men will never understand (Hormones). Then the children, seeing the mans great wealth and status grew jealous and sought to steal whatever they could get. Continued assaults on the man will either accomplish one of two things... Giving the kids up for adoption, and divorce with the woman... Or the man will grow ill and then be eaten alive, no mercy from any side as they fight over the remains of his estate.

Don't get me wrong, disagreement will happen in any relationship. However, it appears as thought our "allies" stand in our way. The only principal driving this to happen? jealousy... It almost seems that our "allies" don't even weigh in on the issues, they just decide to take a polarized, opposite stance to every issue.

to hell with a trade war lets just have mexico and canada both declare war on the united states, and in the unlikely event that yall win form a cotinental goverment that way stupid threads like this will only refer to the rest of the world...and who really cares about them ;) j/k
Or a continental government when Mexico and Canada capitulate as a result?

Fish plant ... zowie ...

If I'm assuming correctly, that's similar to the crap ass job I had while working my way through college as a person who reels in nets, breaks their backs hauling out garbage, and then spends his evenings removing the eyes and guts from sea creatures so other people will find them palatable for food ... all the while never getting a date because the person in question reeks of fish regardless of the number of showers they take.

Fun. :D

Holy shit, mine would be gutting a bloody fat ass salmon at the "Chum line", racking gutted fish, hauling out garbage full of fish heads and guts, monitoring the conveyor belt, processing eggs (boring), and boxing the fish before getting exported to Japan (easy job). I wish I get to drive a forklift, that would be awesome! :D Fun shit! :D

Gotta save $$$ for college, tuition fee is so god damn outrageously high!

Two things:

First the important one, Yes the U.S. GOVERMENT/CORPERATIONS should be honoring the free-trade agreements, thats a given. enough said.

Second, as an American I am often offended by people explaining that "America does this," and "Americans do that." Stop blaming America as a whole, 3/4 of all Americans are idiots and believes everything the government says, and the other 1/4 is so small we hardly get heard. So, please do not think that ALL Americans are evil, most of us are just nieve.
I believe that ratio applies to most countries! I am Canadian and proud of it! The problem is not just the Yank side of things! For the duration of this Illegal tariff dispute we have had the most gutless Liberal government in place that has refused to stand up and make themselves heard. The issue is far deeper than just the softwood tariff though. The issues include the BSE or mad cow, this tariff, Salmon fishing rights... As an Albertan I have been very close to the whole BSE problem and the missing details that have been left out of the media. The first incident of BSE in North America was a cow that belonged to a ranch from the states that has just moved to Alberta and the origins of the cow could not be found. The second was again connected to an American ranch but the birth of the cow was suddenly able to be tracked right back to it's mother. One rumoured cow in Alberta no details released. And one COMPLETELY American cow. Then while the majority of our brothers across the border fought to have the restrictions lifted a small group of American ranchers decide to fight the return to free trade. The restrictions by other countries were lifted MONTHS before our "loving" neighbors to the south did it.

The funny part of all of this is that the American Gov't attempt to bully us has led to better trade with other countries and our own Cattle industry growing stronger. Admittedly with help from the tax payers but we are living up to the suggestions in here from other Canucks that we quite shipping out to only by back the finished product. While I have ALWAYS been a staunch supporter of the Yanks and the majority of their International policies in these instances I must say that these illegal moves have actually backfired on them.

I do wish we could eliminate the stupidity that is running rampant throughout North America and get better relations going again between our countries but until we can accomplish that I guess we are stuck dealing with Stupidity from our leaderships that are elected by the majority -- the IDIOTS!

2004 Est US GDP 11,750,000,000,000
2004 Est Canada GDP 1,023,000,000,000

US Exports to Canada in 2004. In millions, 189,879.9
US Imports From Canada in 2004. In millions, 256,359.8
US Trade deficit with Canada in 2004. In millions, -66,480.0

For one thing... Canada has a long way to catch up with the US GDP... The closer they get, it will be exponentially that much more difficult to get closer yet. I could easily state that Canada's GDP is grossely bloated when compared to population figures only because of its proximity to the US. Its like the 51st state for crying out loud!

Another thing, a trade war with the US would benefit the US... We would not be losing 66.5 billion per year to the hosers. For once we would have to buy our own products! Heaven forbid... Canada would suffer tremendously. 256 billion in exports is bread crumbs to the US... But 256 billion in imports to Canada is almost exactly 25% of their GDP...

Canada is not stupid, taking any sort of action against the US would forfit their "Stepchild" status with the US... We could easily go elsewhere with our business and cut more costs.

And one last thing O Canada, just remember the US could pound your turd world military into dust... Canada's military, that is one thing they don't have to pay much for being next to the US... Its almost a formality... This is going back the the "Stepchild" status thing...

Here is a link (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2089.htm). I think you will find interesting overall, particularly the section on trade and investment. I think you will find the source to be reliable too. ;)

Considering the generousity of the US over the last century, I think we deserve a little more respect.
What do you mean by respect? If you mean that people consider the good the US has achieved in its history, I doubt that it will ever be entirely respected or disrespected...there will always be people who wont respect what should be respected and vice versa. However if the people I know and talk to regularly are any indication, then the US does get respect for those aspects that are worthy of respect. But respect does not (and should not) mean refraining from honest criticism, in fact one might suggest respect requires one to engage in honest criticism when it appears called for by circumstances.

Instead the world bitches we don't give enought aid.
Not the world, some of it's inhabitants. I've never once complained about the amount of aid dished out by the US.

Or when we must invade a country we did it all wrong, IE not Europes way.
It has nothing to do with Europe's way, it's about the legal way, that is in compliance with international laws that the US not only played a part in implementing, and not only signed up for, but has also in fact appeared to support and encourage, until a particular president and his administration found doing so inconvinient. What is the point of international laws and treaties if they are only followed when it is convinient. No one breaks laws because doing so is inconvinient, so clearly if people only abide by them when they are convinient, they are not much use for anything. One of the reasons that many people have respected the US in the past, is due to the justice and fairness believed to be part of the US culture, and demonstrated through the US's commitment to due process.

Not to mention how the UN has turned into THE place to go and complain about the US.
It's the place to complain in general. Many nations complain about each other in the UN. Perhaps you hear more about complaints directed at the US for some reason other than actual rate of occurance (for instance if you live in the US such complaints would feature more in the media than would complaints about a nation unimportant to US foriegn policy, who have few ex-pats living in the US, and who are generally just not important enough for complaints about them to feature in US media reporting unless there is a particular US interest involved).

I think the UN will suddenly be without their biggest crutch within 15 years. At least that will be the case if this Anti-American sentiment keeps up.
I'm not certain why you think the US is its biggest crutch, correct me if I have this wrong, but has it not been quite some time since the US was even up to date on its UN dues?

I thought Europe and the rest of Western Civ were our allies? Instead we get only hostility with any action we take,
What do you mean allies, do you mean countries that will help the US should the US be the victim of an aggressive war against it, or do you mean countries who regardless of their own ethics, their own well-being and the well-being of others, will do whatever the US wants?

Its like Some guy (the US) married an attractive woman (Europe). They had children (NATO, UN) and the woman grew old, grey, and cross at the man for reasons men will never understand (Hormones). Then the children, seeing the mans great wealth and status grew jealous and sought to steal whatever they could get. Continued assaults on the man will either accomplish one of two things... Giving the kids up for adoption, and divorce with the woman... Or the man will grow ill and then be eaten alive, no mercy from any side as they fight over the remains of his estate.
No it is not anything like that. It's like a previously good neighbour underwent some changes in the family as it often does, but this time the new head of household appears to be somewhat vilotile and possibly even dangerous, whether that is what he intends or not. Concerned their never perfect neighbourhood is going to suddenly get worse, the suburb try to convince the new head of house to play by the rules all responsible community members abided by prior to his becoming head of the house. For some reason they think this is more sensible than by passing law enforcement proceedures, grabbing a gun and heading out to attack people who may or may not have been connected to the violent home invasion his house suffered a few months back. That their concern only grows as his unlikely stated reasons for his conduct keep getting proven false, seems not unexpected really.

Don't get me wrong, disagreement will happen in any relationship. However, it appears as thought our "allies" stand in our way.
Why, because when the US decided to stop playing by the rules it insists everyone else plays by, people got upset, and then more upset when the excuses for breaking rules turned out to be false?

The only principal driving this to happen? jealousy...
Absolute nonsense. I am not the least jealous of America or Americans. You know I go uni and few days I dont speak to Americans, there are just so many of them there since President Bush took over the Whitehouse, and every single one has told me that they didnt come to my country, so much as they left their own. It's hard to be jealous of a nation when just about everyone you personally know who lives there or has lived there, has commented unfavourably on it. I am constantly told of the wonderful intelligent people, great natural splendor of the landscape, but also of the increasing loss of freedoms, the scariness of religious zealots and the polarisation that appears to be gripping the US since President Bush entered the Whitehouse. I think you'll find 'respect' for the US let her get away with quite a few dubious practises and dirty tricks, simply because on balance the US did more good than harm. However since this change in tack, people are starting to see more harm than good, and since it is their good that is being threatened with harm, it's only sensible that they not go along with it.

It almost seems that our "allies" don't even weigh in on the issues, they just decide to take a polarized, opposite stance to every issue.
That is strange to hear you say, your allies seem to believe the same is true of the US. To be honest I think the allies probably have the right of it. I have to say that intellectual reasoning in the US seems (in the mainstream media at least) to have been thrown out in favour of hyperbole and emotive catch phrases, along with straw men and other logical fallacies.

I wonder have you actually considered the possibility that what President Bush has done is wrong, and it is because of this that people are criticising? Although there was some low-level resentment of the US in most Western nations prior to President Bush taking up office, it was usually coming from 'radical' non-mainstream types...the kind of people who consider soap corporations, technology and soap to be evil, the kind no one outside radical circles placed any credence in.

As for free trade, people really do have a point when complaining about the US. The US doesnt play fair when it comes to free trade, but instead uses it's 'might' to gain advantage. What do you call someone who uses their 'might' to gain unfair advantage over the less 'mighty'? The word bully comes to my mind. No one respects a bully, fear perhaps, respect no.

Canada is only allowed to declare war on the US if they provide us with sweet Canadian suds. I'll expect that keg of Molson by dawn.
A little Tariff with your beer ,sir?

OK I admit we don't have a Fox News based in Canada and like you I still don't know what you're talking about.

1) I don't really care for any of the news channels or any political pundits on any side of the scale. It all looks like worthless cheerleading to me.

2) You still haven't explained why you are complaining. You bitch the US put up tariffs on something we shouldn't, then admit that your government does the same thing. Quid pro quo.

Considering the generousity of the US over the last century, I think we deserve a little more respect. Instead the world bitches we don't give enought aid. Or when we must invade a country we did it all wrong, IE not Europes way.

Not to mention how the UN has turned into THE place to go and complain about the US.

I think the UN will suddenly be without their biggest crutch within 15 years. At least that will be the case if this Anti-American sentiment keeps up.

I thought Europe and the rest of Western Civ were our allies? Instead we get only hostility with any action we take, Its like Some guy (the US) married an attractive woman (Europe). They had children (NATO, UN) and the woman grew old, grey, and cross at the man for reasons men will never understand (Hormones). Then the children, seeing the mans great wealth and status grew jealous and sought to steal whatever they could get. Continued assaults on the man will either accomplish one of two things... Giving the kids up for adoption, and divorce with the woman... Or the man will grow ill and then be eaten alive, no mercy from any side as they fight over the remains of his estate.

Don't get me wrong, disagreement will happen in any relationship. However, it appears as thought our "allies" stand in our way. The only principal driving this to happen? jealousy... It almost seems that our "allies" don't even weigh in on the issues, they just decide to take a polarized, opposite stance to every issue.

I think this proves my above point, 3/4 of Americans are idiots and believes the government in everything it says.


Absolute nonsense. I am not the least jealous of America or Americans. You know I go uni and few days I dont speak to Americans, there are just so many of them there since President Bush took over the Whitehouse, and every single one has told me that they didnt come to my country, so much as they left their own. It's hard to be jealous of a nation when just about everyone you personally know who lives there or has lived there, has commented unfavourably on it. I am constantly told of the wonderful intelligent people, great natural splendor of the landscape, but also of the increasing loss of freedoms, the scariness of religious zealots and the polarisation that appears to be gripping the US since President Bush entered the Whitehouse. I think you'll find 'respect' for the US let her get away with quite a few dubious practises and dirty tricks, simply because on balance the US did more good than harm. However since this change in tack, people are starting to see more harm than good, and since it is their good that is being threatened with harm, it's only sensible that they not go along with it.

Thank you, I nod to yuor understanding.

[[Thank you Omega the Black, you understand aswell.]]

I'm ashamed that my country would hold out from an ally like Canada. Especially since we're supposed to be setting an example for the rest of the world.

Thank god I can vote now.

I think this proves my above point, 3/4 of Americans are idiots and believes the government in everything it says.

The 3/4 concept holds true for every nation.

Absolutely, and in two specific ways:

1. Announce massive tarriffs to take effect on the products produced by President Bush's "stronghold" states. Canada is the leading export market for 39 of 50 states, after all. The announcement should give 60 days notice.

2. Announce *internal* duties to be applied to energy products sold to the United States, with those duties collected to be paid to the logging industry companies in the amounts that they have had to pay to the US, in order to make up for the illegal competitive disadvantage the United States has placed Canadian logging companies at. These duties should also have a 60 day notice period before coming into effect.

The result: massive pressure put on Bush to conform to NAFTA and WTO rulings immediately, or suffer devastating economic losses in his home states, a general slowing of production through-out the US, and no competitive benefit to the US logging industry for it.

The goal: Pressure from the White House to conform to those rulings before any of Canada's measures actually have to go into effect.

That's not something to brag about :rolleyes:

Yes it is. In fact it means Canada is moving ahead with its civil rights. I must hand that to them.

But to say they should declare war on the US is silly. I mean we are mutual trade partners. We help each other out. The same thing with Mexico.

In the words of a random comedian...

When all of America's big cities get blown up, we'll go over to Canada and say "EY!, your the new New York, Ottowa, your the Bronx, Montreal, your Brooklyn, Quebec... your ... Harlem, Vancouver, your Queens, if you got a problem, we'll blow your brains out alright"... which leads me to an old post

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/6546/ca3bv.png

2) You still haven't explained why you are complaining. You bitch the US put up tariffs on something we shouldn't, then admit that your government does the same thing. Quid pro quo.

Except NAFTA doesn't say we can't put tariffs on broadcasting, which I assume is the instance you're referring to. It has, on the other hand, specifically ruled that the United States is in the wrong in regards to softwood lumber, something the current administration has chosen to ignore.

Do you see the difference? It's not an issues of tariffs. It's an issue of illegal tariffs. Canada has legal tariffs against the United States. The United States has illegal tariffs against Canda.

Well, the WTO has already ruled in Canada's favour, therefore the USA should stand by the agreements to which they are signatory members, it's that simple.

1) I don't really care for any of the news channels or any political pundits on any side of the scale. It all looks like worthless cheerleading to me.

2) You still haven't explained why you are complaining. You bitch the US put up tariffs on something we shouldn't, then admit that your government does the same thing. Quid pro quo.

*speaks really slowly*

I SAID, tongue in cheek, 'they (the Canadian Govt. feds and provincial) tax EVERYTHING... and if it's quid pro quo why isn't the WTO ruling against Canada on these 'taxes'?

To clarify something. The Softwood lumber tariff was put in to effect because the US feels the flat stumpage rate system is a subsidy. The WTO ruled it is a subsidy but ruled against the US in how it calculated the tariff. The WTO report also states this tariff is causing extensive harm to the wood industry in Canada and the Candian govt. then recently responded in kind with its own tariffs. Although they don't nearly go far enough I'd have to say it's a start.

About the stumpage rate thingy... structurally it is equivalent to water rental rates particualrly in British Columbia so why not a tariff on power imports?

Some real quid pro quo would be an equally damaging energy and raw resource export policy, such as none at all. I mean an embargo or just exorbitant surcharges and if you think I'm blowing smoke the Feds nearly pulled the plug a few years back and being that I'm originally from a BC town where the primary resource is electricity followed by forestry, I'll tell you right now therere is ample grass roots political will for some very costly 'quid pro quo'.

A trade war doesn't go far enough. We need a lunar war.

If the U.S. government doesn't back down and recalculate the tariff issue, a Trade War is a likely result-which might wake some of the lotus-eating assholes around here up as to just what outsourcing key industries the way they have has done to the U.S. economy and national security.

I applaud those Canadians who say you should move on from resource extraction and export to manufactured goods and finished product. it's about damn time, in truth, that Canada stopped being a net importer of finished products-you've been independent for a really long time, isn't it about time you got rid of mercantilism in your economy?
You aren't a colony anymore, stop acting like one.

I would welcome a situation in which the envirofascists here in the states had to face a torch-weilding-mob for their policies where energy is concerned-we used to be a net exporter of energy, now we have to import even the damn electricity while generation stations are neglected or torn down, Refineries are being blocked or shut off, and imports have been used to stop the gap.

Sometimes, it takes a little pain to teach a lesson.