NationStates Jolt Archive

The US Civil War was fought in 1861-1865. Yet that was the first and most bloody one. Others are fought frequently. One is being fought right now.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/08/20/state/n155157D81.DTL

I was waiting for these guys to show up. Now with the pro and anti war protestors squawking at eachother, Crawford Texas may resort to eminent domain to remove them :) . But it represents a deeper struggle in America. If you notice, they are not protesting about something that happened to them. They are protesting about something that happened to their children. Cindy Sheehan and this new protest leader of the right, have no real reason to open their mouths. Did they die in Iraq? Was it their choices to enlist or not? No, both decisions are happening with their kids.
There is a power struggle between kids and parents. It's happened often, sometimes worse than others. Now, the kids are trying to escape the self sacrificing nature of their parents. They don't want their parents to live their lives, as these guys are trying to do. They want their parents to live their lives, and let them mind their own business. You see, the protestors are angry not as Pres. Bush or society or anything. They are angry that they lost control over their children the day they enlisted. In the rightists' case, they are protesting for the right to control their children.
This is just one aspect of what I see as a larger war in America. "The Culture War" made us think it was some weird hippies and gay guys against America. In reality, it's moire than that. It's the banker versus the factory worker. It's Hollywood versus Nashville versus Greenwich Village. It's East versus West. It will make strange bedfellows while alienating friends.
America has gone through this transition before. The Civil War was simply the most violent, as it was essentially the forces of modernity versus reactionism, kinda like the GWOT. It has destroyed America every time, torn its moral fiber, and left it a useless lump of dirt. Yet it emerges as something more twisted, more powerful, more beautiful, and more hated each time. The GWOT is a sideshow. The real battle, in America, has just begun.

Ahh yes, the good ol' kulturkampf. The libertine vs. the moral, the liberals vs. the conservatives, the emotional vs. the logical. Yet again, it rears its ugly head. If only I was queen, there would be no civil strife because what I says goes :D

Ahh yes, the good ol' kulturkampf. The libertine vs. the moral, the liberals vs. the conservatives, the emotional vs. the logical. Yet again, it rears its ugly head. If only I was queen, there would be no civil strife because what I says goes :D
Yeah. Then you'd have a rebellion on your hands. Unless you did what happened in Mideival Europe. You made everyone forget the old ways of the Roman Empire, or that there even was an old way. Then you make them work for you for life.

Yeah. Then you'd have a rebellion on your hands. Unless you did what happened in Mideival Europe. You made everyone forget the old ways of the Roman Empire, or that there even was an old way. Then you make them work for you for life.


You can be a noble if you keep that part from the serfs ;)

You can be a noble if you keep that part from the serfs ;)
Bet you'd love to throw the US back into the dark ages, eh neo?

... If you notice, they are not protesting about something that happened to them. They are protesting about something that happened to their children.
Not true, parents who speak out about the loss of their child for instance, are protesting something that happened to themselves (the death of their child in particular circumstances, and/or as the result of particular causes).

Bet you'd love to throw the US back into the dark ages, eh neo?



I bet you would advocate monarchy too, if you were the king ;)

You have no idea how much I'd love this whole situation to just go away. But no, everything had to get blown out of proportion, just like Terry Shaivo.

I blame the media, the left and the right, and President Bush for putting us in this mess in the first place.

I bet you would advocate monarchy too, if you were the king ;)
Kings tend to have a nasty habit of losing their heads ;)

Europeans truly don't understand just what is wrong with American society. It's to polarized.

Ahh yes, the good ol' kulturkampf. The libertine vs. the moral, the liberals vs. the conservatives, the emotional vs. the logical. Yet again, it rears its ugly head. If only I was queen, there would be no civil strife because what I says goes :D

And if anyone ever deposed or assassinated you, there is a distint probability it would be me and my well armed band of disaffected liberals, ready to usher in a new era of enlightenment.

Please, do become queen. The guillutine has been in storage FAR too long... ;)

EDIT - NOT a death threat. I repeat, NOT a death threat. That is all.

The main thrust of the thread is about the sick state of America. It is sick but not much more than most Western nations. Consumerism became god in the fifties and traditional religion was left behind. In the UK, society simply became secular and not much time on soul searching was wasted. The US, being a more puritanical society turned more and more to Christian fundamentalism and its politics became polarised. Non western societies, particularly Muslim, watched with horror as great nations seemed to decay and lose their souls. They see a fundamentalist US government funding and supporting a deeply religious Israel, they see the West in general treat the Arab states with contempt.
As for Cindy Sheehan, for gods sake, have we become so low that grieving parents cannot question why their children died?

'A patriotic camp with a "God Bless Our President!" banner sprung up downtown Saturday, countering the anti-war demonstration started by a fallen soldier's mother two weeks ago near President Bush's ranch.

The camp is named "Fort Qualls" in memory of Marine Lance Cpl. Louis Wayne Qualls, 20, killed in Fallujah, Iraq, last fall. His father, Gary Qualls of Temple, said his 16-year-old son also wants to enlist, and he supports that decision.

"If I have to sacrifice my whole family for the sake of our country and world, other countries that want freedom, I'll do that," said Qualls, a friend of the local business owner who started the pro-Bush camp, Bill Johnson.'
Isn't this another symptonof the malaise? Any parent that is prepared to sacrifice their children for a political cause, is indeed sick.

As for this:
'Bush has said he sympathizes with Sheehan but won't change his schedule to meet with her'
Is anyone surprised?

Bet you'd love to throw the US back into the dark ages, eh neo?

No one in their right mind would want to see the US in a dark ages, heck we have one middle east and thats enough spawning of cave-man mentalities.

No one in their right mind would want to see the US in a dark ages, heck we have one middle east and thats enough spawning of cave-man mentalities.



My question: How exactly is a monarchy guaranteeing of Dark Ages? That's a false judgement of my character, and I demand he rescind it!

My question: How exactly is a monarchy guaranteeing of Dark Ages? That's a false judgement of my character, and I demand he rescind it!

umm ok. whatever floats your boat buckwheat

"If I have to sacrifice my whole family for the sake of our country and world, other countries that want freedom, I'll do that," said Qualls, a friend of the local business owner who started the pro-Bush camp, Bill Johnson.'

What about himself, huh? Ergh.

What about himself, huh? Ergh.
What do you mean his-self. Is that any way to talk about a man as righteous as Lott? ;)

Europeans truly don't understand just what is wrong with American society. It's to polarized.
American society isn't so much polarized as in a constant state of being reconciled with itself. This has been true for almost all of American history, and will probably continue to be true until something else replaces America.

American society isn't so much polarized as in a constant state of being reconciled with itself. This has been true for almost all of American history, and will probably continue to be true until something else replaces America.


What i respect about america and americans is they have wild and varied opinions on everything and anything, its a rare place where you can see a communist and a hard core capitalist living on the same street without them killing each other. Look at the middle east for example shittes vs Sunni....Africa varioust tribes waring on other tribes within their national borders....Granted the words get stiff and harsh between the conserv and liberals, but rarely do they ever kill each other like they do in the 3rd world, and that is what makes america america.

I mean turn on your tv you always hear about some revolt or roit happening in some country not worthy of controlling itself, (zimbabwe for example, which your aid went to prop up the corrupt government there nice job africa aid you morons)

They are protesting about something that happened to their children. Cindy Sheehan and this new protest leader of the right, have no real reason to open their mouths. Did they die in Iraq? Was it their choices to enlist or not? No, both decisions are happening with their kids.

I take it you have no children.

What happens to your children, happens to you.

My question: How exactly is a monarchy guaranteeing of Dark Ages? That's a false judgement of my character, and I demand he rescind it!

The Dark Ages comment is a reference to your hard line Religious views.

Europeans truly don't understand just what is wrong with American society. It's to polarized.

True that. However, the wars in Iraq and Afganistan, and pretty much anywhere we decide to bomb for reasons that are never fully explained to us yet done in our name, are pretty much for or against issues. I'm not sure I see a compromise. Invade fewer countries? Use smaller bombs?

In addition, the current administration, in addition to having questionable origins in its rise to power, tends to speak in hyperbole about this situation rather than in truth ("war on terror", "bringing justice to evildoers", "spreading democracy", etc.), which tends to limit rational responses. Also, the media tends to get just as rabid in their "reporting", with the populace, as uneducated as we are, being able to easily identify their varying political biases due to how blatent "news agencies" are in portraying their angle.

I don't know. It seems that we're doing some big shit, and it seems to me that there is a lot of pressure on us to either support (you should see how many flag magnets are on cars now, and even how many music "artists" are selling shit songs such as "Iraq and I roll" with great success) or dissent (the protestors at Crawford, the various anti-war marches that were really hot a copule of years ago) the current military actions of "our" country. I personally belive that my and most other thinking people's opinions are just that, and carry no weight whatsoever with how our country actually functions. However, we do get the shit taxed out of us.

Fuck it. I work, I drink, and I fuck my wife. What else do I have?

In addition, the current administration, in addition to having questionable origins in its rise to power, tends to speak in hyperbole about this situation rather than in truth ("war on terror", "bringing justice to evildoers", "spreading democracy", etc.), which tends to limit rational responses. Also, the media tends to get just as rabid in their "reporting", with the populace, as uneducated as we are, being able to easily identify their varying political biases due to how blatent "news agencies" are in portraying their angle.

Do you always give nails such headaches, or is this instance of hitting one directly on the head a once off? ;)
Hyperbole, great in art (such as literture) mega sucky in politics...

The main thrust of the thread is about the sick state of America. It is sick but not much more than most Western nations. Consumerism became god in the fifties and traditional religion was left behind. In the UK, society simply became secular and not much time on soul searching was wasted. The US, being a more puritanical society turned more and more to Christian fundamentalism and its politics became polarised. Non western societies, particularly Muslim, watched with horror as great nations seemed to decay and lose their souls. They see a fundamentalist US government funding and supporting a deeply religious Israel, they see the West in general treat the Arab states with contempt.

I disagree. The communal nature of Western society just provided a weak frame for people to grasp onto life, but it did not provide real morality. When it was gone, society, so they say, collapsed. But the beautiful thing about collapse is that a new start is enabled. Western Europeans had this collapse much later, and they are grappling with the consequences only now. Eastern Europe had it recently with the moral, and later political collapse of communism, but their zeal to start over makes societal introspection easy for them. The US just keeps reinventing.
This is likely to affect Asia sometime soon, too. It had a noticeable effect on Japan already, especially with the end of WWII. It will on China as the tyranny of Confucianism is replaced by an individual spirit. The ramifications are unpredictable, but it will happen. Morally, we will see the equivilant of WWIII, and that, more than anything, is what I believe will become the dominant issue of the 21st century.

I take it you have no children.

What happens to your children, happens to you.
It's not that I don't have children. I just let them live their own lives. It's none of my business if one of them wants to enlist. I'll complain, but I won't pretend that it was my fault. I didn't enlist them. I will advise them when asked, but little more.