NationStates Jolt Archive

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and have realized that this is one of the many things that the human mind cannot comprehend. Just the simple thought of infinity, being in existence forever, boggles the mind alone. To think, once we die (assuming that the concept of souls is true), we move on to the next part of life, whether it be heaven or hell, or anything that any religion predicts. The thought of no end is weird, and can be frightening at the same time.

Another thought is the fact that out of the 6+ billion people on the planet, you are one person. You can only think, feel, and speak as yourself. It can sometimes feel as if everyone else was placed on Earth, just as a test, to see what you're going to do, and how you're going to live life. I suppose the concept of individuality is just another one of those things that we can't understand. Everyone else was placed on the planet (by whomever you believe) for similar reasons as you were, to interact with the rest of the world.


This topic is probably gonna go in several different directions, and I'm ok with that, just as long as it has some sort of relevence to this post, and things that humans cannot understand. Am I the only crazy person who thinks about this often? :p

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and have realized that this is one of the many things that the human mind cannot comprehend. Just the simple thought of infinity, being in existence forever, boggles the mind alone. To think, once we die (assuming that the concept of souls is true), we move on to the next part of life, whether it be heaven or hell, or anything that any religion predicts. The thought of no end is weird, and can be frightening at the same time.

Another thought is the fact that out of the 6+ billion people on the planet, you are one person. You can only think, feel, and speak as yourself. It can sometimes feel as if everyone else was placed on Earth, just as a test, to see what you're going to do, and how you're going to live life. I suppose the concept of individuality is just another one of those things that we can't understand. Everyone else was placed on the planet (by whomever you believe) for similar reasons as you were, to interact with the rest of the world.


This topic is probably gonna go in several different directions, and I'm ok with that, just as long as it has some sort of relevence to this post, and things that humans cannot understand. Am I the only crazy person who thinks about this often? :p
No, you're not the only one.

What has always been difficult in the extreme for me to get my mind around is the impending fact of my own non-existence. It's rather like trying to not think about a big, red ball.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and have realized that this is one of the many things that the human mind cannot comprehend. Just the simple thought of infinity, being in existence forever, boggles the mind alone. To think, once we die (assuming that the concept of souls is true), we move on to the next part of life, whether it be heaven or hell, or anything that any religion predicts. The thought of no end is weird, and can be frightening at the same time.


For some reason I find it harder to think of an end to my conciousness forever. Mainly because i'm thinking about not thinking which kind of contradicts itself :confused:

Not so much infinity that's the issue...try finite things which are incomprehensibly large, (or small, for that matter).

For example, try to picture a light-year.

Or for a more human touch, try the Holocaust.

I see what you're saying. Eternity is...a really long time. :p

What's even more mind boggling is the scope of the universe around us. Do you realize how FRICKIN' big the universe is? There are billions of stars in this galaxy, and billions of galaxies in this universe. And what about other universes beyond our own? Other planes of existence? We're down here on Earth, convinced of our own inherent superiority...and inreality, we are mere insects in the grand scheme of things...

...Woah...

If it's any comfort to you, Euroslavia, try thinking of it this way: You'll always exist in this sliver of Spacetime. You always have, you always do, and you always will.

Even after you're dead. Even before you were born. You've always been here and now.

In terms of contemplating infinity, the most clarity - or at least comfort - I have ever achieved has always related to the psychedelic experience. I think it part it stems from a subconscious rationalisation that such grand concepts stem, ultimately, from a set of nerve cells. The horror of contemplating one's own insignifance is reduced, I think, when one begins to appreciate the inter-related nature of all things.

If it's any comfort to you, Euroslavia, try thinking of it this way: You'll always exist in this sliver of Spacetime. You always have, you always do, and you always will.

Even after you're dead. Even before you were born. You've always been here and now.
So you're saying that your consciousness is the only thing that actually moves along your own world-line? Hmmm.

What I cannot comprehend is how many people are probably masterbating as we speak. ::eek:

Is it bad I went THIS direction?

In terms of contemplating infinity, the most clarity - or at least comfort - I have ever achieved has always related to the psychedelic experience. I think it part it stems from a subconscious rationalisation that such grand concepts stem, ultimately, from a set of nerve cells. The horror of contemplating one's own insignifance is reduced, I think, when one begins to appreciate the inter-related nature of all things.
Very true. I love the quote: "You have as much right to be here as the stars and planets."

Also: "This we know, all things are connected like the blood which unites one family. Whatever befalls the earth, befalls the sons and daughters of the earth. Man did not weave the web of life; he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself." - Chief Seattle

Telling bad jokes in the middle of a vaguely interesting thread? Why don't you say that it matters that evolution is a theory or that fetuses show brain activity while you're at it?

I see what you're saying. Eternity is...a really long time. :p

What's even more mind boggling is the scope of the universe around us. Do you realize how FRICKIN' big the universe is? There are billions of stars in this galaxy, and billions of galaxies in this universe. And what about other universes beyond our own? Other planes of existence? We're down here on Earth, convinced of our own inherent superiority...and inreality, we are mere insects in the grand scheme of things...

...Woah...

Ahh, yes, another thing I forgot to mention, the universe. Another thing that boggles the mind. It makes you think if there're other planets out there that are just important as Earth, in a religious perspective. We're only on one planet when there are billions of others that have yet to be discovered. Perhaps there's one more planet with almost the exact same characteristics as Earth? We'll probably never know.

What I cannot comprehend is how many people are probably masterbating as we speak. ::eek:

Is it bad I went THIS direction?
Yes, yes it is. I'd prefer if you didn't do it again.

If it's any comfort to you, Euroslavia, try thinking of it this way: You'll always exist in this sliver of Spacetime. You always have, you always do, and you always will.

Even after you're dead. Even before you were born. You've always been here and now.

Holy shit! Euro's God?! I knew it. *looks around suspiciously* Yes, I know whatt you actually mean, though. Anyways..

Eh, I don't have a problem thinking of infinity, humanity's utter unimportance in the big picture (or even my own insignificant part in the scheme of humanity on Earth..unless I really do take over the world) and the like, but once in a while, I'll twitch and realize how utterly mortal I am, but then come back to terms with it.

If it's any comfort to you, Euroslavia, try thinking of it this way: You'll always exist in this sliver of Spacetime. You always have, you always do, and you always will.

Even after you're dead. Even before you were born. You've always been here and now.

*brain explodes* :p
Seriously though, I didn't even think of that before. It's weird, knowing that you've existed even before you were born on this Earth. As humans, we just can't understand that...

Very true. I love the quote: "You have as much right to be here as the stars and planets."

Also: "This we know, all things are connected like the blood which unites one family. Whatever befalls the earth, befalls the sons and daughters of the earth. Man did not weave the web of life; he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself." - Chief Seattle

I've never heard those quotes before, very interesting though, and very true.

So you're saying that your consciousness is the only thing that actually moves along your own world-line? Hmmm.
Your consciousness is stuck moving in a linear fashion... but the entirety of your lifespan occupies a given portion of Spacetime. Like standing in a room having a conversation with a tape recorder left on.

So we die, eventually. It doesn't matter so much. We're forever recorded in the matrix of Spacetime. We're always alive here, in this place. Sure, tomorrow we could be dead, but yesterday we're alive. I think one of the great shackles to the human condition is the failure to realize this fully. I'd like to think once we've passed from these vessels that we will be free of that linear perception.

Very true. I love the quote: "You have as much right to be here as the stars and planets."

That's Desiderata, isn't it?

The idea that what you were convinced was true is false is sometimes impossible for the human mind to grasp.
I just watched Hitler move imaginary armies to crush the Soviet offensive against Berlin in Der Untergang, as well as other characters collapsing because they saw all that they believed in crumble to dust, if anyone wants to know where I got the idea that this might be true from...

What's even more mind boggling is the scope of the universe around us. Do you realize how FRICKIN' big the universe is? There are billions of stars in this galaxy, and billions of galaxies in this universe. And what about other universes beyond our own?

Mind boggling though that is, it is trumped by the quest to understand where in the hell everything that is in, and including, the universe came from. People will talk about the big bang but surely there must have been a trigger even for that to happen? I cannot begin to comprehend how something can come from nothing, I know quantum physics can allow for this to an extent but for quantum physics to apply the universe or pre-universe must have existed in a state where quantum physics were applicable (ie: all the rules existed before they were ever used). How can we go from nothing, no rules, nada, nill, to the rules of quantum physics being in effect? Surely the universe shouldn't even exist? This does not make sense! Thinking about this for too long makes me tired and angry....

Your consciousness is stuck moving in a linear fashion... but the entirety of your lifespan occupies a given portion of Spacetime. Like standing in a room having a conversation with a tape recorder left on.

So we die, eventually. It doesn't matter so much. We're forever recorded in the matrix of Spacetime. We're always alive here, in this place. Sure, tomorrow we could be dead, but yesterday we're alive. I think one of the great shackles to the human condition is the failure to realize this fully. I'd like to think once we've passed from these vessels that we will be free of that linear perception.

Another thing that your post brought to my mind was the concept of 'time'. We discussed this in my World History class quite a few years ago, but I remember it pretty well. We talked about the fact that once we're born, we exist on this timeline, until we die, where we're dropped off of the timeline. One thing that I could never understand is whether we still have an understanding of time once we're dead, and as souls, and if there is a difference between the two. I remember hearing from someone that a day in heaven equates to 1000 years on Earth, whether that is literal or just another 'representation'.

Speaking of incomprehensible things, this thread makes no sense to me.

Another thing that your post brought to my mind was the concept of 'time'. We discussed this in my World History class quite a few years ago, but I remember it pretty well. We talked about the fact that once we're born, we exist on this timeline, until we die, where we're dropped off of the timeline. One thing that I could never understand is whether we still have an understanding of time once we're dead, and as souls, and if there is a difference between the two. I remember hearing from someone that a day in heaven equates to 1000 years on Earth, whether that is literal or just another 'representation'.
The Universe is a singular event in Spacetime. We're as much part of the Universe as any other part. In the context of Spacetime, our existences are indelibly inked - and within a certain portion of that record, we can see ourselves. I'd like to think that once our bound energies are released (i.e. when we 'die'), we're then free to investigate the rest of the record, in as much or little time as that might take, in as little or as great a level of detail as we might wish.

When I think of it that way, I don't know if I'd especially want to ruminate on that portion of Spacetime that contains my corporeal existence. But I certainly could see that being chief among the first portions a given person would review. Hence one's life 'flashing before one's eyes? I don't know for sure, as I've yet to die.

Anyway, I'm beginning to ramble. Let's just say it's probably not worth it to dwell unduly on our mortality. Better to make use of the time remaining in this corporeal existence, to enjoy oneself and one's fellows as much as possible. 'Cause if we do have an afterlife along the lines I'm positing, the best we'd be able to do would be to enjoy ourselves vicariously, through the recorded lives of those who've gone 'before', and those who'll come 'after'.

But now I'll stop adding to incomprehension. If only for Fass' sake.

This topic is probably gonna go in several different directions, and I'm ok with that, just as long as it has some sort of relevence to this post, and things that humans cannot understand. Am I the only crazy person who thinks about this often? :p
I think about this stuff all the time and I have come to a conclusion- it's better not to think about it.

I've just accepted the fact that I can't understand many things, like conciousness.

I'm not sure if I'd want to be able to explore the time where my life existed either...that is an interesting thought though. I've never heard something like that before.

You're absolutely right, in the fact that we shouldn't think about these things too often, and that we should dwell in the present, and just live life to the best that we possibly can.

But now I'll stop adding to incomprehension. If only for Fass' sake. :p Poor Fass.

Telling bad jokes in the middle of a vaguely interesting thread? Why don't you say that it matters that evolution is a theory or that fetuses show brain activity while you're at it?
Actually the alternative would be me asking why after billions of years of evolution, we have come to the most advanced civilization the world has ever seen, and we are still acting like monkeys in more ways than one.

Then I thought "Nah screw it. The thought is depressing as-is."

Just the simple thought of infinity, being in existence forever, boggles the mind alone.
Nonexistence is another good one.

Anyway, I'm beginning to ramble. Let's just say it's probably not worth it to dwell unduly on our mortality. Better to make use of the time remaining in this corporeal existence, to enjoy oneself and one's fellows as much as possible. 'Cause if we do have an afterlife along the lines I'm positing, the best we'd be able to do would be to enjoy ourselves vicariously, through the recorded lives of those who've gone 'before', and those who'll come 'after'.

But now I'll stop adding to incomprehension. If only for Fass' sake.

I disagree, at least to the extent that I think it's central to our existence to dwell on our mortality. Consideration of our lifepath is very important, because only through understanding our consciousness can we be liberated from it. I'm not sure that we should consciously analyse it - that's another thing - but transcendence of these ideas is life's ultimate goal. Discussing in on an internet forum might be a wholly different thing. But I consider the psychedelic experience, by its very nature, to be of absolute importance, and to dismiss it because it's confusing will only mean that one can't ultimately ascend to an enlightened plane.

That's Desiderata, isn't it?
Now that you mention it, I think it is. I had forgotten.

Actually the alternative would be me asking why after billions of years of evolution, we have come to the most advanced civilization the world has ever seen, and we are still acting like monkeys in more ways than one.

Then I thought "Nah screw it. The thought is depressing as-is."

But our civilization is only advanced because we inherently define it to be so. And advancement can only be achieved through comprehension - to efface that with comments such as that seems to be contradictory.

Desiderata

Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.


Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs;
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals;
and everywhere life is full of heroism.


Be yourself.
Especially, do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love;
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
it is as perennial as the grass.


Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.


You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.


Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.


With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy.


Max Ehrmann, Desiderata, Copyright 1952

:p Poor Fass.

I just realised why! You just need to add more cowbell.

Your consciousness is stuck moving in a linear fashion... but the entirety of your lifespan occupies a given portion of Spacetime. Like standing in a room having a conversation with a tape recorder left on.

So we die, eventually. It doesn't matter so much. We're forever recorded in the matrix of Spacetime. We're always alive here, in this place. Sure, tomorrow we could be dead, but yesterday we're alive. I think one of the great shackles to the human condition is the failure to realize this fully. I'd like to think once we've passed from these vessels that we will be free of that linear perception.
Interesting. Consciousness has been defined as the ability to be objectively self-aware ... to have the ability to "stand outside" your physical body and visualize yourself entire. If that's the case, what you suggest is some sort of supra-consiousness after what we refer to as "death," which would enable you to stand outside space/time and view your life ( as well as your physical body ) entire. Yes???

I've often wondered if what many religions refer to as "God" is in effect a "collective mind" into which we are all fully incorporated upon the event which we refer to as "death." If there is a collective mind, it would explain a lot of things, such as precognition, bilocation, prophecy, etc.

I have always been fascinated with speculation of this sort, and now find that the older I get, the more fascinated I become. Perhaps it's the knowledge that I have more time past than I have remaining. :)

But our civilization is only advanced because we inherently define it to be so. And advancement can only be achieved through comprehension - to efface that with comments such as that seems to be contradictory.
So your saying we are only advanced because we say that we are? Good point.

I suppose we could be living in a universe similar to the universe of Douglas Adams. In which we are rather quite primitive but we think we are advanced because we cannot comprehend true advancement?

If it's any comfort to you, Euroslavia, try thinking of it this way: You'll always exist in this sliver of Spacetime. You always have, you always do, and you always will.

Even after you're dead. Even before you were born. You've always been here and now.
excellent concept. i had never thought of it exactly that way before. it has a nice "time is the 4th dimension" feel to it.

I disagree, at least to the extent that I think it's central to our existence to dwell on our mortality. Consideration of our lifepath is very important, because only through understanding our consciousness can we be liberated from it. I'm not sure that we should consciously analyse it - that's another thing - but transcendence of these ideas is life's ultimate goal. Discussing in on an internet forum might be a wholly different thing. But I consider the psychedelic experience, by its very nature, to be of absolute importance, and to dismiss it because it's confusing will only mean that one can't ultimately ascend to an enlightened plane.

Well, beyond a healthy understanding of one's self, I personally wouldn't choose to dwell unduly on mortailty. :)

And I have a wealth of experience with psychedelic experience to draw from. Would you believe me if I told you there is only so much one can glean from altered perception? Once you've pushed those boudaries back, there's still a lot of contemplative work to be done...

Although I have been growing and tending my very own Salvia Divinorum plant for the last three years for the express purpose of further inquiry. I've yet to meet the Lady Salvia in person, but I am looking forward to that experience very much (and perhaps that'll underscore that I'm not one of these uptight people who'd discredit the use of psychotropic substances in aid of expanding the consciousness, Gruenberg).

So your[sic] saying we are only advanced because we say that we are? Good point.

I suppose we could be living in a universe similar to the universe of Douglas Adams. In which we are rather quite primitive but we think we are advanced because we cannot comprehend true advancement?

Well, not exactly. I don't like to generalise about what we all do - no, I love to generalise about that, but I shouldn't do it - but I do think there's an extent to which once can't measure advancement by anything other than self-advancement. Just as all art is inescapably self-referential, so is all human activity ultimately a reflection of our own development, but that doesn't mean that the ability to build better machinery equates with better organized minds - or just better minds.

So, I'm not saying that we as a society do anything - and I can't comment on the majority of individuals. But it seems to me that there at least some individuals who chose to measure human progress by a gauge of technological development, or material gain, or any other distraction from the true contemplation of what we are, and becoming fully self-aware of our selves within the universe.

That's probably a 'yes', though.

Johnny Cochrane: Ladies and Gentlemen, (Pulls down picture of Chewbacca) this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wooky from the planet Kishic, but Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it. That does not make sense. Why would a Wooky, an eight-foot-tall Wooky, want to live on Endor with a bunch of two-foot-tall Ewoks. That does not make sense. But more important, you have to ask yourself what does this have to do with this case. [Jury stares in silence]
Johnny Cochrane: Nothing. Ladies and Gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case. It does not make sense. Look at me I'm talkin' about Chewbacca. Does that make sense? Ladies and Gentlemen I'm am not making any sense. None of this makes sense. And so you have to remember when you're in that jury room deliberating and conjugating the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No. Ladies and Gentlemen of this supposed jury it does not make sense. If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must acquit.

Does the human mind comprehend why Chewbacca lived on Endor? No, that does not make sense.

Well, beyond a healthy understanding of one's self, I personally wouldn't choose to dwell unduly on mortailty. :)

And I have a wealth of experience with psychedelic experience to draw from. Would you believe me if I told you there is only so much one can glean from altered perception? Once you've pushed those boudaries back, there's still a lot of contemplative work to be done...

Although I have been growing and tending my very own Salvia Divinorum plant for the last three years for the express purpose of further inquiry. I've yet to meet the Lady Salvia in person, but I am looking forward to that experience very much (and perhaps that'll underscore that I'm not one of these uptight people who'd discredit the use of psychotropic substances in aid of expanding the consciousness, Gruenberg).

Absolutely. As most psychedelic reference sources, chiefly Leary, acknowledge, the transcendent experience is ultimately derived from the stimulus of the brain alone - psychoative compounds can aid or even initiate that journey, but they're not solely responsible for it. And whilst that might seem to be casting doubts of the efficacy of psychoactive drugs in the transcendent experience, in fact it's quite the opposite: accepting that they are not 'magical', but merely effective catalysts.

I believe very strongly in the use of psychedelic drugs to aid the psychedelic experience - and I also acknowledge the pleasure one can derive from their use. I've never taken salvia divinorum in sufficiently strong doses to truly gauge its effects - I don't have my own plant, so it's never that fresh, and my pipe is truly disgusting - but I have immensely enjoyed the experiences.

On a sidenote, if you are going to try salvia, be patient. It took almost half an hour to hit me, and then very suddenly, and I'm told that's not uncommon.

Does the human mind comprehend why Chewbacca lived on Endor? No, that does not make sense.

That's a South Park joke about OJ Simpson's trial. What relevance does it have to this discussion?

Oh, and also I have trouble comprehending an utter lack of me ever existing. Mainly because if I never were to exist I wouldn't be able to tell would I? AHHHHHH! I'm Freakin' Out Man!

That's a South Park joke about OJ Simpson's trial. What relevance does it have to this discussion?To the discussion or the thread title? :D

To the discussion or the thread title? :D

The discussion - I thought I'd said that?

That's a South Park joke about OJ Simpson's trial. What relevance does it have to this discussion?

Oh, I did.

Interesting. Consciousness has been defined as the ability to be objectively self-aware ... to have the ability to "stand outside" your physical body and visualize yourself entire. If that's the case, what you suggest is some sort of supra-consiousness after what we refer to as "death," which would enable you to stand outside space/time and view your life ( as well as your physical body ) entire. Yes???
Yes, after a fashion. These concepts are invariably filtered through one's own archetypes, but that encapsulates it more or less.
I've often wondered if what many religions refer to as "God" is in effect a "collective mind" into which we are all fully incorporated upon the event which we refer to as "death." If there is a collective mind, it would explain a lot of things, such as precognition, bilocation, prophecy, etc.
Like Jung's Collective Unconscious... or Humanity-in-total, a 'Meta-Humanity'. I have long felt this to be closer to truth than fiction. And it would, or could, anyway, go part of the way to explain a few of the things you've mentioned, yes.
I have always been fascinated with speculation of this sort, and now find that the older I get, the more fascinated I become. Perhaps it's the knowledge that I have more time past than I have remaining. :)
After losing both my parents while still fairly young, I found it hard not to dwell on my own mortality. Particularly because neither of them died terribly well - my father died of sudden lung failure, so he hadn't had the time to ready himself... my mother died of a fast-growing brain tumour that quickly destroyed her short-term memory and her capacity for critical or analytical thought, and so went to her end as a near-vegetable. Gloomy thoughts, to be sure.
But a few years ago when (and please don't think this is trite because I'm speaking of a celebrity, here) George Harrison died, he died by all accounts at peace with his own passing. That event, while saddening, inspired me to give this mortality business some second thoughts.

I can't say for certain that I know I'll go well (by my own standards), but when I do, I'd like to think I'll be at peace with myself about it, and let go with some measure of grace and dignity - not fighting it, not kicking and screaming my way to eternity.

very few people can contemplate a number as high as 1000 and no one (i have heard of) can contemplate 1,000,000

this is why when the ancient greeks say infinite they actually mean over 10,000 as they really mean a number so high that the human mind cannot cope

That's a South Park joke about OJ Simpson's trial. What relevance does it have to this discussion?

I realize that I could have picked a more serious example but this one was funnier. :p

What I was trying to show was that some of the simplest thing used to be incromprehensible, (Things like animal spawning; it used to be thought that flies and maggots grew from meat, not from eggs layed in the meat.). And things that we contemplate for great lengths of time used to be difinite (the origin of life and the universe was definitely the result of God's action.)

I realize that I could have picked a more serious example but this one was funnier. :p

What I was trying to show was that some of the simplest thing used to be incromprehensible, (Things like animal spawning; it used to be thought that flies and maggots grew from meat, not from eggs layed in the meat.). And things that we contemplate for great lengths of time used to be difinite (the origin of life and the universe was definitely the result of God's action.)

Well, you really ripped all the humour out of it and left its entrails lying limply on one side. But I take your point.

As to the latter idea, it's interesting: certainly, the parameters of scientific investigation have broadened, as the smaller - more basic - concepts have become understood to a greater degree. It's a good point.

What relevance does it have to this discussion?
Anyway I was under the impression that the conversation would diverge and that as long as I stayed on topic with the title of the tread I would be safe. By the way, I don't mean to be rude, I just enjoy lightening the mood a little.

Anyway I was under the impression that the conversation would diverge and that as long as I stayed on topic with the title of the tread I would be safe. By the way, I don't mean to be rude, I just enjoy lightening the mood a little.

I know I know I know I know - I wasn't criticising, I was just mystified. It seemed like you were relating it to the discussion that preceded it, rather than the topic subject as a whole. My mistake - sorry.

The discussion - I thought I'd said that?
Oh, I did.I was joking, sheesh. If all he went by was the title of the thread, his post would have been perfectly relevant.

Not so much infinity that's the issue...try finite things which are incomprehensibly large, (or small, for that matter).

For example, try to picture a light-year.

Or for a more human touch, try the Holocaust.

Well, infinity is fundamentally different from 'very large, but finite'. I'll give you an example in maths, since this is where you work a lot with (forms of) infinity, and are forced to see it in another way than just 'very large'.

you can count numbers, right? 1 to 10 should be easy. to 1000 will take a bit longer, but you can still consider it to be small. 1 000 000 000 is allready 'very large' (for most people, and in most fields of science). now imagine 10^100000000000 (this is a 1 with 100000000000 0's attached). I guess this is where we speak of this 'incomprehensibly large'.

now take the numbers 0 to 10^100000000000 and put them in a bag. you have 10^100000000000 + 1 numbers in a bag.
Take the numbers - 10^100000000000 to 10^100000000000 and put them in another bag. This bag contains 2*10^100000000000 + 1 numbers.
As you can see bag 2 contains 2 times the amount of numbers in bag 1, minus 1. For any finite number N, no matter how large, bag 1 contains N +1 numbers, and bag 2 contains 2*N + 1 numbers, or for large enough N, bag 2 contains about twice as many numbers as bag 1.

What happens if you try to put all 'natural' (i don't know if this is the english terms) in bag 1: 0, 1, all the way to infinity?
Let's do the same with bag 2: -infinity, ... , -1, 0, 1, ... , infinity .

The first thing a man would say is 'hey, bag 2 contains twice as many numbers as bag 1'. Wrong he is tho.

let's 'count' all the numbers in bag 1 and 2 and see which one will be emptied first:
0 0
1 1
2 -1
3 2
4 -2
.... etc.

As you can see, bag 2 contains exactly the same amount of numbers as bag 1. Infinity is a lot more than simply 'very large'.

Infinity is a lot more than simply 'very large'.
There are different "sizes" of infinities, yes? For example, the total number of odd numbers is a larger infinity than the infinity comprised of the total number of even numbers, yes? :)

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and have realized that this is one of the many things that the human mind cannot comprehend. Just the simple thought of infinity, being in existence forever, boggles the mind alone. To think, once we die (assuming that the concept of souls is true), we move on to the next part of life, whether it be heaven or hell, or anything that any religion predicts. The thought of no end is weird, and can be frightening at the same time.
I reject this idea completely. 200 years ago, the concept of travelling at a speed faster than a horse's canter was equally unthinkable. 15 years ago, cloning only existed in science fiction. As we build upon the knowledge that we have, these concepts begin to become more concrete.

Besides, I don't find it particularly difficult to comprehend something like inifnity that "doesn't end." As a concept, it's not that difficult to denote.

Another thought is the fact that out of the 6+ billion people on the planet, you are one person. You can only think, feel, and speak as yourself. It can sometimes feel as if everyone else was placed on Earth, just as a test, to see what you're going to do, and how you're going to live life. I suppose the concept of individuality is just another one of those things that we can't understand. Everyone else was placed on the planet (by whomever you believe) for similar reasons as you were, to interact with the rest of the world.
Why is it so hard to comprehend that there are 6 billion people on the planet and that I'm not the other 5.999 billion? Why, precisely, is my identity impossible to understand?


This topic is probably gonna go in several different directions, and I'm ok with that, just as long as it has some sort of relevence to this post, and things that humans cannot understand. Am I the only crazy person who thinks about this often? :p[/QUOTE]

There are different "sizes" of infinities, yes? For example, the total number of odd numbers is a larger infinity than the infinity comprised of the total number of even numbers, yes? :)

*not noticing the sarcasm* no, the total 'number' of odd numbers equals the total number of even numbers and the total amount of numbers.

In fact, you have a 'countable' infinity, which means that a set contains as many numbers as the set of integers, and uncountable, which means it isn't countable:

examples: N is countable (duh), Z (N + all neg numbers) is countable, Q (rational numbers: of the form n/m with n, m integers, m non zero) is also countable (allthough between every 2 integers you can find an infinite amount of rational numbers).

R (real numbers) is uncountable.
proof: look at the binary form of every real number. If they are countable, you can put them in a list like this (i am only interested in the numbers between 0 and 1 now) :

0.010101011 ...
0.101111111...
0.010101100...
0.101101011...
etc.
Now we construct a number like this: from the first number, take the first digit behind the decimal point and 'invert it'. In this case it is a 0, so we start with a 1. Now from the second number, take the second digit ...
we get:
0.1110 ...
a number that is not in our list, so R is not countable.

Because I doubt many, if any, will have the patience to read through the following solid blocks of brain-drippings, all the following can be summed up with: "I disagree".

There cannot be anything "outside the universe". The concept of "universe" encompasses everything and anything. Is one was to imagine something outside the universe, it would by definition have to be completely separated from us and unable to react with our universe in any way. Therefore, we could know nothing of it. Without interaction in any way, it could not perceive or be perceived from within our universe, which means it could not be said to exist. The universe is the limit to what we can theoretically observe and outside, there cannot be anything. To claim the universe is infinite is simply to aknowledge that one can never observe everything. Reasonable enough.

So far, the continuation of consciousness after death has not been proven. In fact, I think it never can be, simply because every living human being is acutely aware of the existance of belief in the continuation of consciousness after death. Even if the ghost of your great-great-great-grandfather appeared before you, grabbed you by the collar and shook you hard while yelling into your ear that there was such a thing as life after death, you would not know for sure. The only thing you would know with absolute certainty would be that what you believed to be your great-great-great-grandfather was in front of you. Sure, the same logic could be extended to roads, fish, other people, etc, but there is a difference: You know with absolute certainty that you perceive something. You believe it to be roads, fish, other people, your great-great-great-grandfather, etc, but whether it is or isn't is secondary to the irrefutable fact that you perceive *something*, and that it therefore must exist in some form, even if it's just within your own mind. What you cannot know is whether your consciousness is finite or whether it will go on in some form for ever. The logic is the same as in the previous paragraph: Your universe stops with your perception. From experience, we are all pretty sure that our bodies will expire one day. To some, the most logical assumption is that that is the end to consciousness as well, others find it hard to believe (accept?) that consciousness can have an end, but in the end, it's like trying to imagine something outside the universe. As long as we live, it is as good as non-existant to us because it is unperceptable.

Anyway, either you have to say that no numbers are comprehensible as such, or that all numbers are. A number, any number, does not on its own convey any meaning: 0, 1, 43, 9^537, etc. It can merely denote the value of something else. Certainly, numbers can be useful for describing other things, but they have no innate meaning. This is, actually, one of the first things one learns in mathematics ("Why do I need to learn this? In what way could this possibly ever have any use to me?") On the other hand, any conceivable number - and you have to assume that all numbers between o and infinity are potentially conceivable, just that not all of them will ever be used or even thought of - can be used to describe some value.

Phew. I wanna watch TV now.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and have realized that this is one of the many things that the human mind cannot comprehend. Just the simple thought of infinity, being in existence forever, boggles the mind alone. To think, once we die (assuming that the concept of souls is true), we move on to the next part of life, whether it be heaven or hell, or anything that any religion predicts. The thought of no end is weird, and can be frightening at the same time.

Another thought is the fact that out of the 6+ billion people on the planet, you are one person. You can only think, feel, and speak as yourself. It can sometimes feel as if everyone else was placed on Earth, just as a test, to see what you're going to do, and how you're going to live life. I suppose the concept of individuality is just another one of those things that we can't understand. Everyone else was placed on the planet (by whomever you believe) for similar reasons as you were, to interact with the rest of the world.


This topic is probably gonna go in several different directions, and I'm ok with that, just as long as it has some sort of relevence to this post, and things that humans cannot understand. Am I the only crazy person who thinks about this often? :p

I'm just finding it hard to believe that people have problems with concepts as obvious as 'infinity'...

Besides, I don't find it particularly difficult to comprehend something like inifnity that "doesn't end." As a concept, it's not that difficult to denote.

I'm just finding it hard to believe that people have problems with concepts as obvious as 'infinity'...

The concept of infinity is quite easy to understand, you seemed to have misunderstood me. The thing that I'm talking about is the fact that souls will be in existance forever, that can get more complicated. I mean, if heaven and hell are true (moreso heaven), then its just hard to understand exactly what we're supposed to do. Of course, not knowing what heaven is like (though many people have used interesting imagery for it, such as golden streets, buildings, etc), we don't exactly know what there is to do.

Of course, not knowing what heaven is like (though many people have used interesting imagery for it, such as golden streets, buildings, etc), we don't exactly know what there is to do.
Last I heard, Euro, those that subscribe to Heaven™ spend all their time in such unprintable bliss and adoration for the Faceless Glowing Thing that they aren't aware of the passage of time... or are simply too blissed out to care.

lol

The concept of infinity is quite easy to understand, you seemed to have misunderstood me. The thing that I'm talking about is the fact that souls will be in existance forever, that can get more complicated. I mean, if heaven and hell are true (moreso heaven), then its just hard to understand exactly what we're supposed to do. Of course, not knowing what heaven is like (though many people have used interesting imagery for it, such as golden streets, buildings, etc), we don't exactly know what there is to do.

Of course, there's also the possibility that there is no heaven, no hell, no afterlife and no meaning to existance beyond what we choose to put in it.

Last I heard, Euro, those that subscribe to Heaven™ spend all their time in such unprintable bliss and adoration for the Faceless Glowing Thing that they aren't aware of the passage of time... or are simply too blissed out to care.

That would really suck. What kind of God gives his worshippers the reward of praising him for all eternity? Real motivator there... :rolleyes:

The concept of infinity is quite easy to understand, you seemed to have misunderstood me. The thing that I'm talking about is the fact that souls will be in existance forever, that can get more complicated. I mean, if heaven and hell are true (moreso heaven), then its just hard to understand exactly what we're supposed to do. Of course, not knowing what heaven is like (though many people have used interesting imagery for it, such as golden streets, buildings, etc), we don't exactly know what there is to do.

So, it ISN'T that you can't comprehend a concept as amorophous as infinity?

(By the way, you might not want to say "the fact that souls will be in existance forever"... when it is not provable as a 'fact')...

Am I right in assuming, you are actually referring to not being able to comprehend what the human mind could do to OCCUPY itself for all eternity?

If so - the answer is still obvious to me...

We are supposed to do what we do each second, each minute, each day, each week, each month, each year..... which is... 'be'.

We'll just do it for 'longer', if we survive through all eternity.

That would really suck. What kind of God gives his worshippers the reward of praising him for all eternity? Real motivator there... :rolleyes:
I don't really wanna derail the thread, Vetalia. I kinda liked where it was meandering before I clumped in in my size ten clown shoes just then...

But, (lol)

I'd have to say an inordinately insecure one.

- and I'm spent.

Your not crazy, your just actually thinking (which many people don't do)

I've thought about this too, and it does get frightening. It is hard for the mind to think of something with no real end. It seems everything has to end sometime. It's hard to think that anything will keep going, and going, and going (except for and energizer :D ). It seems that a "forever" is inevitable, though. If there aren't souls, then when you die there is a bunch of nothingness forever. If there are souls, then your soul will live on forever, with no end. It also seems that there is nothing you could do forever. You would get bored of everything eventually. Well, when forever comes, I'll deal with it then.

:mp5: :sniper: :mp5:
The Armed Republic Of Cruel Tyrany

Cruel Tyrany's post put me in mind of something: whenever I contemplate the infinite, I fall very deeply asleep.

I'm more impressed with how humanity avoids thinking about these things. You're right, the idea of the infinite, or eternity, is rather startling, especially when you look at it and suddenly come to realize how meaningless this all is.

One small pale blue dot, lost in the shine of the universe. And on that pale blue dot, out of 6 billion + people, you exist. And for such a small amount of time too. Knocking off eternity and using JUST the universal age, or hell, the age of the planet, our life spans are so small. Not even a real blip on what is going on.

We are so impressed with our own power, but in actuality, we have none. None that could not be repaired by the planet we're living on after some time, or any that would compare to the forces our planet protects us from.

We're not the center of it all, no matter what you might want to think.

And yet... and yet we spend most of a day upset that we missed out on getting the last bit ice cream in the carton before someone else ate it. Or we wonder about who will win American Idol.

To make it not so depressing, we're also surrounded by the miracle of creation, its beauty and splendor, and, as Euro said, we might even have all eternity, but we're more concerned with the actions of a movie star.

Humanity, go fig?

*Wanders off whistling the Philosopher's Song from The Meaning of Life (Monty Python)*

The concept of infinity is quite easy to understand, you seemed to have misunderstood me. The thing that I'm talking about is the fact that souls will be in existance forever, that can get more complicated. I mean, if heaven and hell are true (moreso heaven), then its just hard to understand exactly what we're supposed to do. Of course, not knowing what heaven is like (though many people have used interesting imagery for it, such as golden streets, buildings, etc), we don't exactly know what there is to do.
Well, then this becomes a theological quandaray as opposed to a logical one. I circumvent that particular phenomenon by pointing out that "Supernatural" is a contradiction. "Souls" most certainly do not exist. Given the complete absence of evidence to this effect, it is the only conclusion I am prepared to come to at present.

The concept of infinity is quite easy to understand, you seemed to have misunderstood me. The thing that I'm talking about is the fact that souls will be in existance forever, that can get more complicated. I mean, if heaven and hell are true (moreso heaven), then its just hard to understand exactly what we're supposed to do. Of course, not knowing what heaven is like (though many people have used interesting imagery for it, such as golden streets, buildings, etc), we don't exactly know what there is to do.
If there's no sex in heaven ( or for that matter, hell! ) I don't wanna go! :p

If there's no sex in heaven ( or for that matter, hell! ) I don't wanna go! :p

Oh, there's sex in hell. Fundy Christians keep promising me how I'll spend eternity being sodomised there. :)

Oh, there's sex in hell. Fundy Christians keep promising me how I'll spend eternity being sodomised there. :)

Really? Is it too late to change my reservation?

Oh, there's sex in hell. Fundy Christians keep promising me how I'll spend eternity being sodomised there. :)
ROFLMFAO!!!! Only you could come up with something like that, Fass! ROFL!

Really? Is it too late to change my reservation?

Don't ask me - ask a priest, they're the travel agents.

Interesting thread. I have also spent a lot of time over the years contemplating this (many that caused me to doze off while pondering). It's as if the mind itself wants to stop functioning after thinking about it for so long.

I agree with the Nervun's points about the things that we choose to think about, and the meaninglessness of it all. I also liked the other comment made earlier about how we were always here and will always exist in some form. I don't necessarily believe in any of the 'afterlife' scenarios, but I am comfortable with that. It doesn't boggle my mind that the particles that make up my body could be the remnants of some older galaxy/star/planet that morphed through various reactions and forces to reach its present state. It doesn't bother me that the time scales involved in these particles to form into this particular form cannot be comprehended by me. It doesn't even bother me that there isn't just one axis for time, but it could be two or more intertwined or intersecting temporal dimensions the sum total of which we regard as our 'linear' time.

What boggles me is that even though these aprticles have and will always be in this contained universe for however long, it is only in these 70 odd years that they join together in such a way as to induce thought, and even at that, self-conscious thought. Even more mind boggling is that similar particles have bonded together to make others, all of whom are also capable of self-thought. Intelligence itself is mind-boggling, the universe not so much.

By intelligence, I would mean the 'awareness of thinking' and 'thinking that I am aware' together. So, relating to the thread title, the number one thing that the humand mind cannot comprehend is the reason/method for itself, comprehending anything.

Don't ask me - ask a priest, they're the travel agents.

I can't.

They set up office in those pointy buildings... and if I even try to go in, all their water boils, and then I burst into flames... :(

Oh, there's sex in hell. Fundy Christians keep promising me how I'll spend eternity being sodomised there. :)

That's the worst punishment they could come up with? I mean, spending eternity praising someone over and over's a lot worse, especially if you like "sodomy" (or somdomy ;) ).

That's the worst punishment they could come up with? I mean, spending eternity praising someone over and over's a lot worse, especially if you like "sodomy".

You ain't hearing me complain.

You ain't hearing me complain.

I don't complain either...as long as it isn't some kind of trick.

I can't.

They set up office in those pointy buildings... and if I even try to go in, all their water boils, and then I burst into flames... :(

They make house calls for people like you. Where do you think the Jehova people got the idea?

I don't complain either...as long as it isn't some kind of trick.

I wouldn't put it past them. Wily little buggers, they are. I doubt they know much more than anyone.

They make house calls for people like you. Where do you think the Jehova people got the idea?

Yeah - we tried that, too...

And, there was me, scrubbing 'vicar-ash' out of the carpet for the rest of the day...

Yeah - we tried that, too...

And, there was me, scrubbing 'vicar-ash' out of the carpet for the rest of the day...

There's your problem right there. You're not supposed to let them in. They like to frolic out in the open.

I wouldn't put it past them. Wily little buggers, they are. I doubt they know much more than anyone.

Yes, Hell is probably just a worse off version of our world where Bush is president for life.

Yes, Hell is probably just a worse off version of our world where Bush is president for life.

And with them there! Stop it. You're scaring me.

There's your problem right there. You're not supposed to let them in. They like to frolic out in the open.

But, if I don't let them in, where do I get the blood for the sacrifices?

It's a vicious circle.

And with them there! Stop it. You're scaring me.

I'm sorry...there are some things that should not be spoken of. I crossed the line... *shudder*

But, if I don't let them in, where do I get the blood for the sacrifices?

It's a vicious circle.

Rubber tarmacs are your friends. Preparation is the key.

Just the simple thought of infinity, being in existence forever, boggles the mind alone.


ever think about this.take any object,say a piece of paper.imagine cutting it in half.cutting the half in half.cutting that in half again.and so on.it goes on into infinity.and yet,that infinity is contained within the bounds of the piece of paper.it is infinite and finite at the same time.something is going on there that the mind just dosn't understand.

I, for once ,read through the whole thread from the ridiculous to the sublime.more ridiculous than sublime, most people don't want to think about the infinite,why because as you saw it gets people to thinking about something outside of themselves.The idea that the universe has no end, blows my mind.

Am I the only crazy person who thinks about this often? :p

No, I thought about the exact same things, and about existance itself.


OMG!!!! I can't go back in time! Time only goes forward! :eek:

Does everything really exist!

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

It really freaks me out.

what's it all about eh lads.we'll have to wait and see. :)